[00:01] <s1024kb> proppy: my teacher (my memtor) will not appear during my daytime (because of the time zone difference), but i can meet \sh later on jabber... :) will talk to him about it. :)
[00:02] <TheMuso> Muahahaha! You are mine you piece of crap!
[00:03] <s1024kb> TheMuso: ?? what are you talking about? haha.
[00:03] <StevenK> TheMuso is talking about bddebian.
[00:03] <TheMuso> s1024kb: I am beating a package into submission so it works.
[00:03]  * StevenK hides
[00:03] <TheMuso> StevenK: lol
[00:04] <TheMuso> StevenK: Basically I know why the module fails to load now. The symbol it can't be found is within an ifdef, which is not defined.
[00:04] <TheMuso> Figure that one out.
[00:04] <TheMuso> s/it/that/
[00:04] <s1024kb> TheMuso: i envy you. wish that next time i will laugh like you too.
[00:05] <TheMuso> So the way the package is built needs tweaking.
[00:15] <StevenK> TheMuso: It probably involves hitting autoconf until it sprinkles -D in?
[00:19] <TheMuso> StevenK: Actually no, it simply involves adjusting the package to build the module statically into the proftpd binary and core libs, rather than have it as an external module, which causes it to not work in the first damn place.
[00:19] <TheMuso> Upstream screwed that one just a little.
[00:19] <StevenK> TheMuso: Fair enough, I defer to your annoyance
[00:19] <TheMuso> Or more to the point, the Debian maintainer probably didn't read the docs enough to work that out...
[00:20] <TheMuso> At any rate, this will be fixable.
[00:20] <StevenK> Francesco Paolo Lovergine. Young whippersnapper, based on the fact that I don't know him
[00:20] <TheMuso> And, a patch will be attached to debian bug heh
[00:20] <TheMuso> oops
[00:20] <TheMuso> but yeah
[00:21] <TheMuso> debian bug 451090
[00:21] <ubotu> Debian bug 451090 in proftpd "proftpd: error loading module 'mod_lang.c'" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/451090
[00:26] <StevenK> GAH
[00:26] <StevenK> Modest, I will destroy you.
[00:28] <LordKow> heheh, StevenK brings death and destruction like a plague
[00:29] <StevenK> Only to things that piss me off.
[00:32] <superm1> hey folks.  could i bugger someone for a revu: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=ipod-convenience ?
[00:54] <imbrandon> superm1: looking now, not that it matters package wise but why couldent this be added to libgpod ?
[00:55] <superm1> imbrandon, well the way it works is significantly out of line with other ipod models
[00:55] <superm1> imbrandon, and as such requires a lot of workarounds (which are in there)
[00:55] <imbrandon> ahh
[00:56] <superm1> amarok is going to need a patch too, but i'm working that out right now
[00:57] <imbrandon> seems like it looks good to me, i'll advocate, but on the amarok note, make sure you send it upstream tom and possibly for amarok2 (kde4 ) also
[00:57] <imbrandon> s/tom/too
[00:57] <superm1> yeah i was planning on it, i'm struggling to find an noninvasive way to do it
[00:57] <superm1> thanks
[01:04] <LordKow> you know your a linux developer when you speak in sed
[01:08] <LordKow> oh man my other coworkers missed this giant unopened bottle of pepsi, MINE
[01:18] <bddebian> Heya gang
[01:22] <RAOF> Hiya bddebian
[01:22] <bddebian> Hi RAOF
[02:02] <Hobbsee> wow, quiet...
[02:03] <imbrandon> heh yea, heya Hobbsee
[02:04] <bddebian> Gads, I don't even know where to start with this stupid java package
[02:04] <imbrandon> bddebian: send al java output to /dev/null :)
[02:04] <imbrandon> all*
[02:04] <bddebian> imbrandon: Amen :-)
[02:05] <bddebian> Looks like kind of a neat game though
[02:05] <imbrandon> :)
[02:05] <imbrandon> qemu running on a remote host forwarded via ssh+X is slow
[02:08] <StevenK> imbrandon: s/qemu/anything/
[02:09] <imbrandon> heh true
[02:39] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: yes, it's quiet :P
[03:17] <LaserJock> hello all!
[03:17] <Hobbsee> hey LaserJock!
[03:17] <ajmitch> LaserJock!!
[03:18]  * ajmitch watches him run away
[03:18] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock
[03:18] <LaserJock> phew, finally done with school, dentist, and am at my grandfather's until Sunday
[03:18] <ajmitch> excellent :)
[03:18] <LaserJock> so maybe I can get some stuff done
[03:18] <LaserJock> you know, important stuff ;-)
[03:18] <ajmitch> golden poniez!
[03:18]  * imbrandon is taking the time off to work-on apt-mirror updates
[03:18] <Hobbsee> poniez!
[03:18] <imbrandon> poniez time
[03:19] <LaserJock> darn, pitti/TB beat me to the SRU stuff
[03:20] <ajmitch> yep
[03:20] <LaserJock> I wish we could have more discussion within MOTU before going to TB
[03:20] <ajmitch> well it's going from archive admin dissatisfaction & being pushed down to MOTU
[03:21] <ajmitch> which is quite fair - pitti wants to make sure that the archive doesn't get crack in it
[03:21] <LaserJock> well, archive admins should talk to us first
[03:21] <LaserJock> and let us figure out a recommendation or something
[03:24] <LaserJock> I think I'm more inclined towards 2-MOTU acks rather than a MOTU SRU team
[03:24] <TheMuso> Obviously common sense wasn't being used for stable release updates, thats how I see it anyway.
[03:24] <LaserJock> well
[03:25] <ajmitch> the whole thing with -proposed being used as a testing dumping ground
[03:25] <LaserJock> we need to figure out what the root issue is
[03:25] <LaserJock> is it that some MOTUs didn't understand what the SRU policy was, i.e. what should be an SRU
[03:25] <LaserJock> or what
[03:26] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I fail to see the usefulness of -proposed if it isn't a testing dumping ground, honestly
[03:26] <StevenK> LaserJock: Ponies!
[03:26] <ajmitch> that it's to be used as a final testing step, not the first one?
[03:26] <StevenK> ajmitch: Exactly
[03:27] <LaserJock> well, yes and no
[03:27] <StevenK> -proposed is for widespread testing, and moving to -updates
[03:27] <LaserJock> it should definately have a reasonable first testing
[03:27] <LaserJock> but also I'm not sure how tested -proposed is
[03:28] <LaserJock> I tend to think that how things get *into* -proposed is not as big of an issue as what happens once they are there
[03:28] <LaserJock> to start with package removal wasn't possible in LP
[03:28] <ajmitch> well it seems that pitti is not happy with the quality of what has been uploaded there
[03:28] <LaserJock> I think that's been fixed
[03:29] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yes, but the question is how to fix that
[03:29]  * TheMuso wonders how many uploads to proposed get rejected.
[03:29] <LaserJock> if it's easy to remove packages
[03:29] <LaserJock> we can utilize more peer review in -proposed
[03:29] <LaserJock> and get rid of bad ones
[03:29] <LaserJock> of course there *should* be very few bad ones
[03:30] <ajmitch> part of what pitti wasn't happy about is what bugs should get fixed via -updates
[03:30] <LaserJock> right
[03:30] <LaserJock> which is an education problem, IMO, not a policing problem
[03:31] <LaserJock> if certain MOTUs don't understand what is SRU-worthy then they need to be told
[03:31]  * TheMuso wonders if having all MOTU hopefuls do one SRU test is going to far. :p
[03:31] <LaserJock> I absolutely think that if a MOTU consistenly can't figure out what is SRU-worthy they need some
[03:31] <LaserJock> "tough love"
[03:32] <nenolod> with a cat of ninetails?
[03:32] <LaserJock> no
[03:32] <nenolod> oh, darn.
[03:32] <LaserJock> that wouldn't be very CoC ;-)
[03:32] <nenolod> i think there's a joke in there somewhere!
[03:32] <RAOF> Anyway, it's difficult to breed them.
[03:32] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i dont think it explicitly mentions it
[03:33] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: the SRU policy says what is SRU worthy
[03:33] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: well, this is one of the things worrying me about our MOTU's - because they appaer to not be sane.
[03:33]  * Fujitsu walks in.
[03:33] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: It's not a very thorough definition, is it?
[03:33] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: then lets fix that, not keep changing processes
[03:33] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: that would be my logic, yes.
[03:33] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: no, but if somebody is consistently way off then we should address it
[03:33]  * TheMuso agrees with Hobbsee and LaserJock.
[03:34] <LaserJock> if it's close then I don't see how that's a Ubuntu Archive issue
[03:34] <nenolod> Hobbsee, of course MOTUs aren't sane. the established definition of sanity is "uses Microsoft Windows and fits in with society", most MOTUs are "geeks" :P
[03:34] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:34] <TheMuso> haha
[03:34] <LaserJock> nenolod: geeks aren't sane? :-)
[03:34] <nenolod> LaserJock, that's what microsoft wants us to believe!
[03:34] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:34] <ajmitch> LaserJock: at least I'm not
[03:34] <nenolod> they have mind control reprogramming satellites
[03:35] <nenolod> (bought from the NSA of course)
[03:35] <LaserJock> ajmitch: well, that we know
[03:35] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: unfortunately, it seems that the preferred route is to change processes, rather than to address our underperforming MOTU's.  especially as we have no removals, so there is no actual "look, we're serious, you need to change your behaviour here"
[03:35] <nenolod> well, everybody makes mistakes
[03:35] <LaserJock> so we should figure out if it's MOTU-wide or a few MOTUs
[03:35] <LaserJock> nenolod: of course
[03:36] <Hobbsee> nenolod: but nto repeated ones :)
[03:36] <nenolod> so i don't think getting rid of MOTUs is an answer (not that I am a MOTU, mind.)
[03:36] <nenolod> perhaps some review process of SRUs would be a good idea
[03:36] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i'm of the opinion that it's a few - but some of us arent pushing SRU's anyway
[03:36] <LaserJock> we should be forgiving of people who make occasional mistakes, we all do, but people who are told the issues and can't seem to change are a big problem
[03:36] <Hobbsee> nenolod: all SRU's being attempted should be sane.
[03:37] <nenolod> yes, but assuming that they are is a roadmap to disaster
[03:37] <Hobbsee> nenolod: if they're not, then we have a wider problem - and all the review in the world wont change the behaviour of the people putting in crack.
[03:37] <nenolod> good point
[03:37] <Hobbsee> nenolod: assuming that the people are trusted...is it?
[03:37] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: sure, can you think of a sane way to remove MOTUs? :)
[03:37] <LaserJock> I think we should work on more peer-review. as a scientist I think it's great idea
[03:38] <ajmitch> or more stringent checks for potential MOTUs?
[03:38] <Hobbsee> nenolod: if all the MOTU's are good, then we shouldn't *need* a review.
[03:38] <TheMuso> ajmitch: seconded.
[03:38] <LaserJock> I think a 2-MOTU peer review system would be excellent
[03:38] <StevenK> ajmitch: +1
[03:38] <Hobbsee> nenolod: the potential MOTU's are getting reviewed all the time - they should only get MOTU when they're sane enough ot make such decisions, IMO.
[03:38] <LaserJock> I think *all* MOTUs should be stepping up
[03:39] <StevenK> LaserJock: I think *all* Ponies should be ponies up ponies ponies ponies
[03:39] <nenolod> Hobbsee, i agree that they should only get MOTU when they have demonstrated thorough understanding of policy in universe
[03:39] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Hahah.
[03:39]  * StevenK hides
[03:39] <LaserJock> StevenK: getting there
[03:39] <nenolod> which in some cases is wider latitude than debian policy (e.g. SRUs)
[03:39] <Hobbsee> nenolod: ideally, we wouldn't need such great amounts of policy, because people were sane, but...
[03:40] <LaserJock> well, common sense should work
[03:40]  * bddebian isn't
[03:40] <nenolod> well, i don't see what you mean by 'sane'
[03:40] <nenolod> it'd be helpful, probably, to put a concrete definition of what you mean
[03:40] <slangasek> write it down and call it a sanity policy
[03:40] <Hobbsee> nenolod: to not shove stuff into the repositories that breaks systems?
[03:41] <Hobbsee> slangasek: heh :)
[03:41] <Hobbsee> nenolod: to only uplaod stuff that would pass the peer-review proceedures.
[03:41] <LaserJock> frankly, policy should be there to guide people in best practices, not keep dumb people from making mistakes.
[03:41] <nenolod> Hobbsee, well, consider that it might not break on their machine
[03:41] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: where's the breathing policy, btw?  just incase someone forgets to breathe.
[03:41] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: it's on a wiki somewhere I'm sure
[03:41] <nenolod> LaserJock, right, i agree there too
[03:42] <ajmitch> link?
[03:42] <LaserJock> ajmitch: google it, shesh
[03:42] <Hobbsee> nenolod: which is where -proposed comes into effect, yes.
[03:42] <Hobbsee> nenolod: but some stuff that gets uploaded clearly wasnt tested, etc.
[03:42] <nenolod> Hobbsee, like audacious-plugins-1.3.5-4ubuntu3 :D
[03:42] <Hobbsee> nenolod: yeah, that was a bit of a nightmare.  *sigh*
[03:43] <StevenK> There was another one?
[03:43] <LaserJock> we gotta get people to take a bit more ownership of Universe, methinks
[03:43] <Hobbsee> StevenK: no, htis was the one around release
[03:43] <nenolod> well, i do all i can to handle the audacious packages in universe without being a motu
[03:43]  * ajmitch really wants to hear people's suggestions about the MC approving new MOTUs
[03:44] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Yes, there were 2 that caused problems
[03:44] <Hobbsee> nenolod: i think you do a good job.  i've yet to see your crack :)
[03:44] <Hobbsee> StevenK: yeah, i remember them.
[03:44] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I think being comfortable with saying "no, not yet" is the key
[03:44] <nenolod> infact, recently i asked le_vert to make me co-maintainer of audacious in debian to help with that a little more
[03:44] <LaserJock> nobody really wants to say no to people, it's not fun at all
[03:44] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: that depends how much of a BOFH you are.
[03:44] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: it's fun reading people the riot act.
[03:45] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: well, *most* people don't like saying no to people
[03:45]  * Hobbsee wonders if she'll end up reading the riot act to staff members *twice* this week.
[03:45] <StevenK> A BOFH doesn't read people the riot act...
[03:45] <LaserJock> you're obviously an exception
[03:45] <ajmitch> LaserJock: sure, it's just a matter of having enough info to know whether it's a yes/defer/no
[03:45] <jcastro> LaserRock!
[03:45] <ajmitch> clickety-click!
[03:45] <LaserJock> jcastro: haha
[03:45] <nenolod> StevenK, right. a BOFH just sends 220V up their ethernet line instead
[03:45] <StevenK> nenolod: Exactly.
[03:45] <ajmitch> uh oh, jcastro!
[03:45] <Hobbsee> StevenK: well, no, i think i got the wrong term
[03:45] <Hobbsee> nenolod: *grin*
[03:45] <nenolod> goes "you're done contributing for a while" and walks off
[03:45]  * imbrandon runs
[03:45] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yep, so we need to demand the info we need
[03:46] <nenolod> well, audacious is a nightmare because people on the ubuntuforums do checkinstall and such
[03:46] <ajmitch> but checkinstall is great
[03:46] <LaserJock> in some ways it was easier to have the big-bad-TB to do the dirty work
[03:46] <nenolod> checkinstall needs to die in a fire :(
[03:47] <LaserJock> but we I think we gotta get tough with people
[03:47] <Hobbsee> nenolod: it was best when it was segfaulting, yes.
[03:47] <nenolod> does the CoC cover 220V to ethernet port?
[03:47] <nenolod> ;)
[03:47] <Hobbsee> nenolod: doesn't mention it.  should be fine :)
[03:47] <LaserJock> and not let dholbach nominate *every* person that's ever worked on the desktop team ;-)
[03:47]  * ajmitch sighs
[03:48] <nenolod> generally MOTU process serves us well, though
[03:48] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: +1 for being harder on some of our MOTUs, and motu-hopefulls
[03:48] <ajmitch> it's fair enough for him to nominate people he's worked closely with, given that such people will usually be focussing just on those tasks
[03:48] <Hobbsee> nenolod: take this, for eg.
[03:48] <nenolod> i mean, it's a lot better than it was around dapper
[03:49] <TheMuso> There were far fewer of us around dapper afaik.
[03:49] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yeah, but it should also be fair for the rest of the MC to decline them if they aren't there yet
[03:49] <LaserJock> TheMuso: where there?
[03:49] <Hobbsee> nenolod: recently, a new MOTU filed a sync request.  when asked why the ubuntu changes could be dropped, he wrote "ubuntu changes can be dropped".  There's *no* excuse for that, apart from utter lazyness.  that cant even be clasified as a mistake.
[03:49] <TheMuso> sorry, afaik there were far fewer of us MOTUS/hopefuls around the dapper cycle
[03:49] <nenolod> Hobbsee, that's ridiculous
[03:49] <Hobbsee> nenolod: that says that we have a problem, and need to solve those core issues.
[03:50] <LaserJock> TheMuso: you think? I'm not really sure in terms of active people
[03:50] <Hobbsee> nenolod: exactly.  yet nothing's been done about it yet, apart from an archive admin yelling at him, because people dont like being harsh.
[03:50] <TheMuso> LaserJock: As I have said, I could be wrong.
[03:50] <ajmitch> LaserJock: problem is that we're relying on sponsor feedback, there's not really anything beyond that at the moment
[03:50] <nenolod> Hobbsee, oh well, that's not as bad as the debian developer applicant which put in a debian/copyright file of a package of mine which said my code was GPL3
[03:50] <LaserJock> TheMuso: I could do, I just don't have any real numbers on that
[03:50] <nenolod> when it er, wasn't ;)
[03:50] <imbrandon> go back to the TB approving new MOTU's :)
[03:50] <LaserJock> ajmitch: well *do* it
[03:50] <Hobbsee> nenolod: yeah, well.  some of them probably suck too :)
[03:50] <ajmitch> ok, let's scrap the MC then
[03:50] <Fujitsu> The TB grilling wasn't exactly thorough, either.
[03:50] <LaserJock> ajmitch: there are *no* limitations on what the MC can ask, etc.
[03:50] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I thought that didn't end up working a lot of the time...
[03:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: no, I'm not saying that, I'm saying let's empower the MC to get their job done
[03:51] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Live through -core-dev, then
[03:51] <ajmitch> LaserJock: hence me asking for *suggestions* so that we don't have all this *complaining* about *stuff*
[03:51] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Haha.
[03:51] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: core was kinda fun
[03:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: ah, I see what you mean now
[03:51] <imbrandon> :)
[03:51] <Hobbsee> core was scary :P
[03:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: you want some suggestions on what to ask
[03:51] <Hobbsee> but amusing, as i wasnt getting asked core questions :P
[03:51] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: to say the leaste :)
[03:51] <nenolod> well
[03:52] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: pffft, you were a shoe-in
[03:52] <ajmitch> LaserJock: since it seems that we can't really do anything right, sure
[03:52]  * TheMuso was disappointed that the TB didn't put him through a meet grinder.
[03:52] <StevenK> I didn't get asked the core questions either.
[03:52] <nenolod> Hobbsee, imho, the guy who said "changes can be dropped" and didn't provide rationale, probably has no business being a contributor to universe, MOTU or not
[03:52] <TheMuso> And hopes that he does, when he eventually goes for core dev.
[03:52] <StevenK> I think they figured out I can package if I wrote a package checker.
[03:52] <imbrandon> i dunno if mine was the standard qusetions or not, but i know it lasted an hour vs most peoples 20 minutes
[03:52] <imbrandon> heh
[03:52] <TheMuso> StevenK: You did have DD on your side as well.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> nenolod: they're a useful contributor, usually.  but appears to not be taking much care with ubuntu stuff, based on that bug.
[03:53] <LaserJock> ajmitch: it's not that at all. I feel like you guys are being "tied" by some social things
[03:53] <nenolod> Hobbsee, hmm, well, he needs to be told to get his arse in gear then ;)
[03:53] <Hobbsee> nenolod: which would suggest that they should go back to having their stuff reviewed, until they get it consistently right.
[03:53] <nenolod> right, i agree
[03:54]  * TheMuso remembers only going for MOTU once he had gotten uploads done at least 3-5 times without corrections being needed.
[03:54] <nenolod> Hobbsee, i imagine it should also count badly towards any MOTU application at the moment (if he isn't already a MOTU)
[03:54] <Hobbsee> nenolod: the guy is a MOTU :(
[03:54] <nenolod> Hobbsee, he shouldn't be then
[03:54] <Hobbsee> nenolod: which makes me worried about the archive.
[03:55] <nenolod> yes, if craq like that is slipping through, it's a bad thing
[03:55] <Hobbsee> nenolod: exactly, but there's no removal procedure, and people dont want to deal with removals anyway, so nothing ever gets done, and so he can still upload goodness knows what.
[03:55] <nenolod> Hobbsee, well, there needs to be a removal procedure then
[03:55] <StevenK> The problem is, every time we have this conversation five people jump up and say "That guy? He's *great*. He knows everything and never makes mistakes."
[03:55] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: well, I wouldn't say there is *no* removal procesdure
[03:55] <Hobbsee> nenolod: +1, but i havent had much traction on it.
[03:56] <LaserJock> it's just not well-defined or written anywhere
[03:56] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: well, true.  people just refuse to use it.
[03:56] <LaserJock> but obviously the governing body that gave the power can take it away
[03:56] <StevenK> And dholbach would never allow the use of one, since we all trust each other and sing Kumbaya
[03:56] <LaserJock> ok, so Matt Zimmerman wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[03:56] <TheMuso> StevenK: +1
[03:56]  * StevenK shuts up
[03:56] <Hobbsee> StevenK: *grin*
[03:57] <LaserJock> StevenK: well, dholbach is not the MC either
[03:57] <LaserJock> but I know what you mean
[03:57] <StevenK> LaserJock: *nods*
[03:57] <StevenK> LaserJock: Ponies!
[03:57] <Hobbsee> i'd like to see people who will actually take a stand on the MC.
[03:57]  * StevenK giggles
[03:57] <Hobbsee> as in, the active ones are good
[03:57] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: sure, I'll step aside for you
[03:57] <LaserJock> ajmitch: stop it ;-)
[03:57] <TheMuso> I think I've said this before, but... You work on a package that could potentially be on millions of systems, and that package could just as equally destroy their system.
[03:57] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: not you.
[03:57] <ajmitch> LaserJock: no
[03:57]  * StevenK ponders scripting "LaserJock: Ponies" every time LaserJock says something
[03:58] <LaserJock> ajmitch: we know you are plenty rough, it's just that some of us feel like MC aren't really saying what they are thinking, IMO
[03:58] <TheMuso> SO, there is *MASSIVE* responsibility
[03:58] <ajmitch> no, I'm not
[03:58] <StevenK> TheMuso: The thought is, "You effectively have root on every Ubuntu machine that has universe enabled."
[03:58] <Hobbsee> StevenK: which is all, by default.
[03:58] <ajmitch> we know that Hobbsee will beat up anyone who's not ready though
[03:58] <TheMuso> StevenK: Indeed.
[03:59] <StevenK> Hobbsee: It wasn't when we both started :-)
[03:59] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: i cant if i'm not actively sponsoring.  and i cant if i cant find a solid reason why tehy shouldn't, technically.
[03:59] <nenolod> well, you hardly have root
[03:59] <LaserJock> ajmitch: would it be helpful if MOTUs responded more to applications, perhaps being a bit rough?
[03:59] <Hobbsee> nenolod: every package they install could have a rootkit in it
[03:59] <RAOF> nenolod: We can if we want to.  post/pre inst/rm scripts get run as root
[03:59] <TheMuso> I follow the MC list, but rarely comment, due to having no experience with the applicant in question.
[03:59] <Hobbsee> nenolod: it's root while install, etc.
[03:59] <LaserJock> nenolod: a nice postinst can do whatever you like ;-)
[03:59] <ajmitch> TheMuso: neither do we
[04:00] <StevenK> Hence why it's *effectively* root.
[04:00] <LaserJock> ajmitch: obviously that is an issue
[04:00] <nenolod> well, i mean "hardly have root", as in, packages are usually reviewed in the archive
[04:00] <ajmitch> hence relying on people to comment
[04:00] <LaserJock> nenolod: well ... some are
[04:00] <ajmitch> LaserJock: this is why debian has the NM procedure
[04:00] <nenolod> so i would hope a package which had a rootkit would be rejected ;p
[04:00] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: i dont feel that i can say "no, i dont feel that you're ready, procedure-wise" without evidence to back that up as to why
[04:00] <nenolod> LaserJock, i'm being an idealist! shh. ;)
[04:00] <Hobbsee> nenolod: once you're a MOTU, no one's checking your package :)
[04:00] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: and you think we don't have the same problem? :)
[04:00] <Hobbsee> well, hardly
[04:00] <nenolod> Hobbsee, i'm being an idealist ;)
[04:01] <LaserJock> ok, so what if we do have a miny NM?
[04:01] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: i'm saying that it should be a legit reason to reject.  i'm meaning it as a general problem, not one specific to me.
[04:01] <LaserJock> *mini
[04:01] <StevenK> LaserJock: If we have a mini NM, I'm resigning
[04:01] <TheMuso> lol
[04:01] <LaserJock> whatever
[04:01] <ajmitch> LaserJock: that's what I've been asking about, things to ask them rather than just relying on "+1!!!" from everyone
[04:01] <Hobbsee> NM is known for taking forever.  i dont think that's a great idea.
[04:01] <StevenK> Let me make it very plain, "The fuck we are having NM, or any process similar."
[04:01] <nenolod> well, i think people should have to associate well-thought input instead of "+1 / -1 / whatever"
[04:01] <LaserJock> StevenK: that's silly
[04:02] <ajmitch> says the person who did NM in 3 days :P
[04:02] <nenolod> again, i'm being pointlessly hopeful ;p
[04:02] <Hobbsee> also, we know that people will give the correct responses for NM, then do whatever the heck they like
[04:02] <LaserJock> we can have a NM process that's much slimer and faster
[04:02] <Hobbsee> in the case of our earlier sync requester, we *know* that they do know the correct procedure - they just chose not to follow it.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> so i'm not sure that actually helps.
[04:02] <TheMuso> ...like not testing if a package installs/runs before uploading? Yeah I've been fighting such a package like that today.
[04:02] <StevenK> I don't think we need a NM, mini or otherwise
[04:02] <nenolod> Hobbsee, one solution is not to do the sync until they do follow it
[04:02] <LaserJock> StevenK: why?
[04:02] <nenolod> Hobbsee, but that just sidesteps the problem imo
[04:03] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: MOTU knowledge, or lack of it, is not the problem.
[04:03] <StevenK> Exactly
[04:03] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: and thus, NM, or a variant, probably doesn't help.
[04:03] <LaserJock> why not?
[04:03] <nenolod> it appears to be sheer lazyness
[04:03] <LaserJock> maybe I'm confused as to what you're meaning
[04:03] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: because the problem is lazyness, or not using common sense.
[04:03] <StevenK> LaserJock: Because then it just turns into more red tape
[04:03] <LaserJock> or perhaps I don't know what *I'm* meaning
[04:03] <Hobbsee> and you'll never pick that up in NM.
[04:03] <nenolod> LaserJock, the MOTU in question made a conscious decision just to not follow policy
[04:04] <LaserJock> nenolod: well, that we can deal with
[04:04] <StevenK> Muahaha
[04:04] <StevenK> LaserJock: Ponies!
[04:04] <Hobbsee> hhahahaha
[04:04] <GoldenPony> LaserJock: Ponies!
[04:04] <LaserJock> I'm talking about people getting *into* MOTU in the first place
[04:04] <nenolod> omg. ponies!
[04:04] <LaserJock> and perhaps having a bit more proscribed process
[04:04] <LaserJock> that gives more information for the MC to deal with
[04:04] <Fujitsu> Haha.
[04:05] <nenolod> LaserJock, well, i think the NM process is fine
[04:05] <LaserJock> things that demonstrate knowledge, working as a team, and application of policies
[04:05] <nenolod> but again, IANAM ;p
[04:05] <nenolod> or, maybe IANAMY (i am not a maintainer yet) ;)
[04:05] <LaserJock> ok, there are essentially two things I see
[04:06] <LaserJock> one is dealing with current MOTUs that are causing problems
[04:06] <Hobbsee> correct
[04:06] <nenolod> and the other is dealing with applicants who don't know what they are doing?
[04:06] <LaserJock> and the other is making sure that the MC has real information with which to make a decision on granting MOTUship
[04:07] <LaserJock> so ...
[04:07] <nenolod> well, what do you see as "real information"?
[04:07] <StevenK> LaserJock: I think the channel is swinging in favour of you stopping this discussion and finishing the Ponies
[04:07] <LaserJock> the things I said above:
[04:08] <ajmitch> hah
[04:08] <LaserJock> things that demonstrate knowledge, working as a team, and application of policies
[04:08] <nenolod> well, i don't know how well that is
[04:08] <nenolod> some people change when you aren't watching what they are doing closely
[04:08] <TheMuso> People can do anything to get in, but once they have relatively unchecked access, they can currently do their worst, and get a slap on the wrist.
[04:08] <LaserJock> StevenK: well, if you guys think Ponies are more important than the future of MOTU and people messing it up for everybody then I guess I'll just give up ;-)
[04:08] <TheMuso> IMO
[04:09] <nenolod> TheMuso: exactly
[04:09] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: do both :)
[04:09] <LaserJock> TheMuso: sure, we need *both*
[04:09] <LaserJock> we need to make sure we have good people becoming MOTU
[04:09] <LaserJock> and we need to make sure they *stay* good people
[04:09]  * ajmitch wonders what effective punishments people want
[04:10] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: indeed.  but i'd suggest dealing with the ones who are actively doing crack, undetected first, before we deal with the new ones applying - as we can put them off for a bit
[04:10] <LaserJock> I think removal of upload rights is fine
[04:10] <Hobbsee> risk management, and such
[04:10] <nenolod> ajmitch, i still say 220V to ethernet port followed by "you're no longer maintaining packages in Ubuntu atm. kthx." is fine
[04:10] <nenolod> ;)
[04:10] <TheMuso> hahaha
[04:10]  * ajmitch really doesn't like the removal or nothing
[04:10] <LaserJock> I think conditional removal of upload right can be effective
[04:10]  * bddebian wonders how "good" is defined, he should probably be worried
[04:10] <LaserJock> I don't know what else we can do for "poisonous people"
[04:10] <nenolod> i don't know, can't maintain packages without a working ethernet port
[04:11] <nenolod> ;p
[04:11] <LaserJock> bddebian: no, you're not a problem
[04:11] <nenolod> well
[04:11] <nenolod> you could, at 56kbps
[04:11] <ajmitch> bddebian: why do you think I'm avoiding doing work? :)
[04:11] <nenolod> ;p
[04:11] <Hobbsee> nenolod: wireless? :)
[04:11] <TheMuso> TO give people an idea of how hard I am on myself, I have several times, gone very close to deactivating my own upload rights, and requesting review of my work for a while, simply because I was getting so complacent.
[04:11] <nenolod> Hobbsee, 2.4ghz noise generator
[04:11] <nenolod> :D
[04:11] <LaserJock> the problem is people who can't take correction
[04:11] <StevenK> *cough*
[04:11] <LaserJock> TheMuso: and that's why you are exactly the type of person we need ;-)
[04:11] <StevenK> I wonder which non-MOTU we're talking about
[04:11] <nenolod> Hobbsee, at the same time you 220V the ethernet, you key down on 2.4ghz with amateur radio equipment to ensure the wireless hardware is fried too
[04:11] <nenolod> ;)
[04:12] <ajmitch> StevenK: we're mainly talking about existing MOTUs at the moment
[04:12] <LaserJock> StevenK: I thought we were taking about MOTUs
[04:12] <Hobbsee> nenolod: hehe :)
[04:12] <ajmitch> and I don't think the non-MOTU in question has applied to be a MOTU
[04:12] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: you can still use the sponsorhisp queue, if you're not sure.
[04:13] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: I'm well aware of that, but it was more an issue of complacency rather than not being sure of something packaging related. As you all know, I ask before going ahead and doing something I'm not sure about
[04:13] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: true
[04:13]  * ajmitch will try & grab a dump of today's IRC log & send it to the MC peoples
[04:13] <ajmitch> LaserJock: going to be at the next MOTU meeting?
[04:13] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: I was missing little things, and simply not being thorough.
[04:14] <LaserJock> ajmitch: when is it?
[04:14] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: yeah, true.  then you exercise restriant, and don't upload, even though you can
[04:14] <LaserJock> do you know offhand?
[04:14] <LaserJock> I think we should really encourage peer review
[04:14] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Which is why I was goign to deactivate myself, as I would *HAVE* to get an ack first.
[04:14] <TheMuso> Having upload rights there would be too tempting and too easy.
[04:14] <Hobbsee> hmmm.
[04:15] <ajmitch> LaserJock: friday, 12:00UTC
[04:15] <ajmitch> (iirc)
[04:15] <jcastro> http://stompbox.typepad.com/blog/2007/11/firefox-apply-d.html
[04:15] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yikes, that's 5am
[04:15] <jcastro> comments welcome!
[04:15] <nenolod> 12:00 UTC is 6am here :P
[04:15]  * Hobbsee views ppa as somewhat of a dumping ground, but not the actual ubuntu archives
[04:15] <ajmitch> TheMuso: I'd do that, but I'm automagically a member of MOTU anyway
[04:15] <jcastro> hi Hobbsee, LaserJock, ajmitch, others I don't know!
[04:15] <ajmitch> mr castro!
[04:15] <nenolod> Hobbsee, i haven't experimented with ppa
[04:16] <nenolod> i just upload proposed stuff to http://nenolod.net/~nenolod/incoming
[04:16] <nenolod> ;)
[04:16] <TheMuso> ajmitch: But I view core dev as something completely different.
[04:16] <TheMuso> If you are core dev, you have to be more sure of yourself, and really have to be thorough
[04:16] <Hobbsee> hey jcastro!
[04:16] <Fujitsu> jcastro: Is it really that much better? I know 2 was shocking and made me move to Epiphany.
[04:16] <imbrandon> jcastro dosent know me :(
[04:16] <nenolod> or to revu
[04:16] <jcastro> Fujitsu: join the club
[04:16] <nenolod> or to mentors
[04:16] <ajmitch> jcastro: what? it doesn't totally suck?!
[04:16] <jcastro> imbrandon: didn't know you were around!
[04:16] <nenolod> depends on where i want it to go ;)
[04:16] <imbrandon> heh
[04:16] <ajmitch> jcastro: I only run firefox for the extensions :)
[04:16] <jcastro> ajmitch: no, it's actually quite awesome
[04:17] <jcastro> it feels like a rewrite
[04:17] <jcastro> seriously
[04:17] <imbrandon> yea just keeping out of the line of fire , working on a package update
[04:17] <ajmitch> apart from extensions, epiphany >> firefox 2.x
[04:17] <jcastro> imbrandon: you still a kubuntu guy or just a generalist these days?
[04:17] <ajmitch> imbrandon: not partaking in our spirited discussion?
[04:17]  * Fujitsu installs firefox-3.0
[04:17] <imbrandon> generalist with alot of kubuntu in his bag :)
[04:17] <imbrandon> jcastro: ^^
[04:18] <ajmitch> he has lots of baggage :)
[04:18] <jcastro> Fujitsu: asac is on vacation, give him a week to get the full thing on board.
[04:18] <imbrandon> LOL
[04:18] <jcastro> although that Ubulette guy is on fire recently wrt. firefox/mozilla work
[04:18] <nenolod> personally, one reason why i have refrained from trying to apply for full debian developer rights is because i think i would probably start uploading craq due to the utter convenience of it
[04:18] <nenolod> ;)
[04:18] <TheMuso> nenolod: lol
[04:19] <StevenK> jcastro: Dude. You have childhood issues.
[04:19] <RAOF> jcastro: I'm waiting for epiphany to build against xulrunner-1.9.  Then I get the nice interface *and* the gtk2 form widgets.
[04:19] <jcastro> RAOF: yeah, me too.
[04:19] <StevenK> jcastro: "Seriously. I feel like an unbeaten step-child."
[04:19] <jcastro> StevenK: heh
[04:19] <imbrandon> epiphany+webkit :)
[04:19]  * StevenK drowns imbrandon 
[04:19] <nenolod> imbrandon, yes
[04:19] <nenolod> imbrandon, lets get firefox replaced with epiwebkit by hardy+1
[04:20] <Ubulette> jcastro, you woke me up :)
[04:20] <nenolod> ^^
[04:20] <jcastro> Ubulette: WOO! \o/
[04:20] <nenolod> and so, i think imbrandon just had cardiac arrest ;)
[04:20] <jcastro> imbrandon: so dude, you see dholbach's new push for MOTU developers right?
[04:20] <Ubulette> Am i on fire ? really ?
[04:20] <jcastro> Ubulette: hot action dude.
[04:21] <Ubulette> i have a bunch of packages ready
[04:21] <imbrandon> jcastro: yup yup :) time for some more kbuntu MOTU's :)
[04:21] <LaserJock> jcastro: what's that?
[04:21] <nenolod> Ubulette, apparently. you might want to get some fire extinguisher ;p
[04:21] <jcastro> LaserJock: see planet
[04:21]  * ajmitch looks at the planet
[04:21] <Ubulette> ff3b1, xul1.9b1, prism, seamonkey1, seamonkey2, etc...
[04:21] <jcastro> imbrandon: yeah, so I've been pinging nixternal but I probably should have pinged #kubuntu as a whole
[04:21] <jcastro> imbrandon: the idea is to blow up MOTU participation something fierce.
[04:22] <nenolod> i'm working on trying to package songbird just for lol
[04:22] <jcastro> Think of an open week, but all year long
[04:22] <ajmitch> jcastro: we're just arguing about that sort of thing
[04:22] <nenolod> :D
[04:22] <jcastro> ajmitch: oh? should i page up?
[04:22] <imbrandon> jcastro: ya
[04:22] <imbrandon> page up
[04:22] <jcastro> sec.
[04:22] <ajmitch> jcastro: in terms of whether we're strict enough about who gets upload rights
[04:22] <jcastro> what time index?
[04:22] <imbrandon> heh the worry is about $quality
[04:22] <imbrandon> probably the last hour or so
[04:23] <ajmitch> pretty much exactly an hour, after LaserJock lit the SRU powderkeg
[04:23] <jcastro> ah, so ...
[04:23] <imbrandon> basicly its boinging down to *some* existing MOTU's need a good thump on the head and there is worries if a big push is done that that *some* will become more, and also what do do NOW with the *some*
[04:23] <jcastro> the idea is not to lower standards
[04:23] <imbrandon> boiling*
[04:23] <Fujitsu> Boing.
[04:24] <ajmitch> a good summary, imbrandon :)
[04:24] <jcastro> the idea is to bring more people in general.
[04:24] <ajmitch> which has to be balanced with keeping quality even higher than it is now
[04:24] <jcastro> so, like, if you guys accept, let's say, X% of applicants
[04:24] <ajmitch> and not scaring everyone away
[04:24] <jcastro> the idea isn't to lower that
[04:24] <nenolod> more MOTUs are good as long as they do good work
[04:24] <nixternal> boingboing!
[04:24] <nenolod> but more MOTUs are bad if they do craq
[04:24] <jcastro> the idea is to bring more people in to apply for X
[04:24] <RAOF> But even if we don't lower the bar, we'll still get *more* head-hitting candidates.
[04:25] <nixternal> we only need the trinity damnit! we don't need all of these MOTUs!!! :p
[04:25] <LaserJock> ajmitch: that's what I'm good at I guess, perhaps it's my rural upbringing, love to play with fire
[04:25] <ajmitch> jcastro: yeah, so we were talking about how hard it is to review these new people for MOTU
[04:25] <imbrandon> jcastro: hell yea i'm all for pushing for more MOTU , as we;ve talked before aobut it, but the $quality thing of applicants has been bothing
[04:26] <imbrandon> bothering*
[04:26] <imbrandon> wow i cant talk tonight
[04:26] <nixternal> and what's different with any other night :)
[04:26] <jcastro> ajmitch: I'm not worried so much about how fast it takes someone to be a MOTU, just that we get more people applying for MOTUs to begin with.
[04:26] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Of course you can't. You are on IRC. :p
[04:26] <imbrandon> shush
[04:26] <LaserJock> imbrandon: thanks for summing up what i've been trying to say for hours
[04:26] <imbrandon> lol
[04:26] <nixternal> hehe
[04:26] <ajmitch> jcastro: and that's still hard to deal with :)
[04:26] <jcastro> if it takes you guys 3 months to make someone a MOTU then that's fine, my issue is finding people to apply to begin with
[04:26] <nenolod> imo, ubuntu universe packagers should strive for higher quality than debian/main
[04:27] <nixternal> imbrandon: http://www.cabowaboradio.com <- that might be up your alley if you like that type of music
[04:27] <LaserJock> jcastro: well yes, that is a big issue
[04:27] <ajmitch> when there are more people, it's that much harder to have people working personally with them & able to give good sponsor feedback
[04:27] <LaserJock> as I've looked around some other distros
[04:27] <jcastro> have you guys talked to dholbach about this?
[04:27] <ajmitch> so scaling the MOTU application process is a priority
[04:27] <jcastro> <-- only here on his own time, not tasked to do MOTU specifically
[04:27] <ajmitch> we will, I'm going to email the log to him & talk to him
[04:27] <nxvl> imbrandon: did u finish the mail?
[04:27] <LaserJock> I have to honestly say that MOTU is probably the least technically proficient on average :(
[04:28] <nenolod> ajmitch, \o/
[04:28] <nixternal> ajmitch: how about something like Debian has for the NM process?
[04:28] <ajmitch> nixternal: hahah, see StevenK's response :)
[04:28] <StevenK> Oh GAR
[04:28] <ajmitch> just scroll up :)
[04:28] <StevenK> I'm not saying it again
[04:28] <nixternal> jeesh
[04:28] <nixternal> StevenK: yes you are! I am not scrolling up :p
[04:28] <jcastro> LaserJock: but that's fixable. We can scale lots of parts of Ubuntu, I don't see how MOTU could be any different.
[04:28]  * nixternal scrolls down
[04:28] <imbrandon> nxvl: actualy i'm having a hard time pointing you in the dirrection your wanting to go, how about if you pick a "pet" package and we'll go from there
[04:28] <nenolod> nixternal, some aspects of the Debian NM process are not possible for many possibly good applicants to complete
[04:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: don't use the N word ;-)
[04:28] <jcastro> other than the fact that there's not enough of you experienced guys out there
[04:28] <nenolod> nixternal, in many places, it is not easy to get your key signed by another debian developer, for instance
[04:29] <ajmitch> which directly impacts scalability
[04:29] <LaserJock> jcastro: I don't know that it's exactly a scaling issue
[04:29] <nixternal> nenolod: we don't have to do exactly, but the idea is there, that's all I meant
[04:29] <nxvl> imbrandon: i find it a good idea, since the things y really want to learn is more about the tools, not the packages
[04:29] <jcastro> do you guys think that dholbach's revisions to the packaging guide have been good?
[04:29] <jcastro> I know I was overwhelmed with the old one
[04:29] <LaserJock> jcastro: thanks :-)
[04:29] <imbrandon> honestly , have you all looked at the debian-maintainer processes ( NOT DD ) , i think it would be PERFECT for universe/upstreams
[04:29] <nxvl> imbrandon: then i can apply any thing to the package i want :D
[04:30] <nenolod> imbrandon, debian maintainer process is easy
[04:30] <LaserJock> imbrandon: kinda yeah
[04:30] <nenolod> imbrandon, i completed it in 2 days
[04:30] <nenolod> :D
[04:30] <imbrandon> nenolod: i'm talking about the new one
[04:30] <imbrandon> yea
[04:30] <imbrandon> i'm not saying its not easy
[04:30] <nxvl> imbrandon: you mean NM process?
[04:30] <imbrandon> i'm saying it limited them to a small subset of packages though, not $archive
[04:30] <LaserJock> I mean, as has been said before, it's not so much getting people the knowledge
[04:30] <LaserJock> it seems to be more social issues
[04:30] <imbrandon> witch could be good to let people in but not give them MOTU right away
[04:31] <nenolod> imbrandon, that's not true. some debian maintainers maintain 100+ packages in $archive
[04:31] <jcastro> imbrandon: before I let you get away ... we need more kubuntu MOTUs.
[04:31] <imbrandon> not without ,DM-Upload-Allowed: set
[04:31] <LaserJock> like people not caring about uploads, caring about correction, or not following policies
[04:31] <nenolod> imbrandon, right
[04:31] <imbrandon> nenolod: 100% of packages dont have that set, infact very few do
[04:31] <imbrandon> jcastro: i'm on it :)
[04:31] <jcastro> imbrandon: /win 22
[04:32] <jcastro> oops!
[04:32] <nenolod> imbrandon, i know that. mine don't, but i don't need it set anyway
[04:32] <nixternal> the NM consists of like 5+ steps now...you go through 2 or 3 steps, then you get 3 sets of questions, then there are some more steps...and then upon approval, you are 90 and can't see the monitor anymore :p
[04:32] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I believe Mark wanted that basically for upstreams, ala beryl
[04:32]  * RAOF now has a lower limit on jcastro's irssi windows!
[04:32] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yea, and the way debian implmented it looks sane
[04:32] <LaserJock> nixternal: from what I've heard it isn't that part that is the slow down
[04:32] <nixternal> LaserJock: it is the initial steps that are the slow down
[04:32] <LaserJock> nixternal: it's mostly waiting on other people
[04:33] <nixternal> yup
[04:33] <nenolod> i don't have time to maintain 100+ packages ;p
[04:33] <LaserJock> waiting for a DAM, etc.
[04:33] <LaserJock> that's the stuff we can make fast
[04:33] <LaserJock> I think looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers is useful
[04:33] <TheMuso> Re sponsoring, at this point, I co-admin the uus list/queue, and have two mentors. I'd rather not have to do much more in the way of sponsoring, due to the involvements in subj-projects I have.
[04:34] <nixternal> can we? it seems that doing revu's are pretty slow, merges look slow
[04:34] <LaserJock> nixternal: it doesn't take years though ;-)
[04:34] <TheMuso> s/subj-projects/sub-projects/
[04:34] <nixternal> lol, true
[04:34] <jcastro> imbrandon: so ... Riddell needs help, he's going to be slammed on kde4, we need to actively push to get more kubuntu people. Can you and nixternal work together? (Hobbsee too!)
[04:34] <LaserJock> and we're pretty fast with MOTU applications
[04:34] <TheMuso> s/mentors/pupils/
[04:34] <nixternal> jcastro: who says I like imbrandon enough to work with him?
[04:34] <nixternal> :p
[04:35] <nixternal> forgot Jono's favorite, the winky
[04:35] <LaserJock> jcastro: no, nixternal is too obsessed with this Foresight fad
[04:35] <nixternal> damn, I didn't even do a winky
[04:35] <nenolod> foresight sucks
[04:35] <nixternal> LaserJock: thanks for selling me out!
[04:35] <nenolod> i tried that for 2 months
[04:35] <TheMuso> LaserJock: Perhaps thats another issue. We go through MOTU apps too fast.
[04:35] <imbrandon> jcastro: sure hehe me and nixternal work good togather ( i was the one whom got him to actual dev instead of bother us in #kubuntu-offtopic lol )
[04:35] <StevenK> jcastro: But Hobbsee has defected!
[04:35] <nixternal> so does Ubuntu, but you don't see me screaming that :)
[04:35] <nenolod> conary started taking 2 hours to process my requests
[04:35] <nenolod> :D
[04:36] <jcastro> imbrandon: dude, I like Ken Vandine and Og as much as the next guy, that's no excuse for nixternal
[04:36] <nixternal> hey now!
[04:36] <imbrandon> lol
[04:36] <jcastro> nixternal: conary is pretty sweet.
[04:36] <nixternal> I will be hanging out with them guys in the next couple of weeks, I will tell them that you called them bloated
[04:36] <nenolod> conary isn't sweet. it's slow. :P
[04:36] <nixternal> :D
[04:36] <nenolod> nixternal, where are you hanging out with those guys?
[04:37] <nixternal> here in Chicago
[04:37] <imbrandon> ok wanna see me clear the room of DD's ?
[04:37] <imbrandon> * i need a sponsord upload to debian please *
[04:37] <nixternal> lol
[04:37] <nenolod>  /part
[04:37] <nixternal> imbrandon: RFS filed? did you send an email to -mentors?
[04:37] <nenolod> (i'm not a DD, but i'll run away from that anyway)
[04:37] <imbrandon> nixternal: i'm the maintainer dippy
[04:37] <nixternal> imbrandon: do what I do, go bug pusling and ana!
[04:38] <jcastro> nixternal: they spoke at our lug last month, a great bunch of dudes
[04:38] <StevenK> imbrandon: Do you? That's nice.
[04:38] <nixternal> they upload all of my stuff, them and Dirk
[04:38] <Hobbsee> jcastro: my problem with that is that kde4 tends to be big and complex.
[04:38] <nixternal> jcastro: at BarCamp Chicago, they had a Foresight install server, and I plastered it with Ubuntu/Kubuntu CDs and stickers :)
[04:39] <nenolod> naoliv uploads stuff on my behalf. though my irc packages i might upload via someone i oper with on a network ;)
[04:39] <jcastro> Hobbsee: yeah, I hear ya.
[04:39] <nixternal> Hobbsee: big yes, and only getting more complex because we aren't doing much patching, preparing it for a livecd release :(
[04:40] <nenolod> i had a bunch of packages recently pass through debian NEW, but the last sync appears to have not picked them up from unstable
[04:40] <nenolod> >_<
[04:40] <nixternal> I was willing, and still am willing to do that process...but something happened I guess...so that is why I am elsewhere building KDE 4 packages for a LiveCD
[04:40] <nxvl> imbrandon: what did you need to upload to debian? i have a friend who is DD
[04:41] <imbrandon> nxvl: it was a joke really, i will have something in a few hours, but i have a few DD friends too, if they are afk i'll poke ya
[04:42] <StevenK> imbrandon: I bet you $10 you can't convince ajmitch to upload :-P
[04:42] <nenolod> i just submit all of my packages to debian first
[04:42] <nenolod> it simplifies things ;p
[04:42] <nenolod> it's my trickle-down theory
[04:42] <imbrandon> StevenK: hahah yea i think i would have a better chance convining you
[04:42] <nenolod> in action etc ;p
[04:42] <ajmitch> haha
[04:42]  * ajmitch is sitting at a sid box right now :)
[04:43] <nenolod> 'cept, it's not in action atm, because 4 of my packages are debian but missing in launchpad
[04:43] <bddebian> nenolod: And you actually get shit in to Debian?
[04:43] <imbrandon> ajmitch: really ? hehe mind sponsoring apt-mirror update in ummm ~1 hour ?
[04:43] <imbrandon> lol
[04:43] <nenolod> bddebian, i sure do
[04:43] <bddebian> You must have an insider then :-)
[04:43] <ajmitch> in ~1 hour I will be away from my computer, of course
[04:43] <imbrandon> hehe k
[04:43] <nenolod> bddebian, as i said "i have naoliv upload on my behalf"
[04:43] <nenolod> ;p
[04:43] <StevenK> In ~1 hour I will be away from imbrandon
[04:43] <imbrandon> hahha
[04:43] <nxvl> imbrandon: ok, just ping me
[04:44]  * imbrandon hurries
[04:44] <bddebian> nenolod: Ah, missed that part
[04:44] <nenolod> bddebian, you can view my collection of shit^Wpackages at http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk
[04:44] <nenolod> bddebian, it's pretty pathetic, i know
[04:47] <bddebian> Probably larger than my list :)
[04:47] <nenolod> main (4)
[04:47] <nenolod> pending (1)
[04:47] <nenolod> :D
[04:48]  * StevenK checks his list
[04:48]  * bddebian wonders if he has any
[04:48]  * TheMuso should apply to be a DD one day.
[04:48] <StevenK> main (13)
[04:48] <StevenK> Oh well, I thought I had less
[04:48] <nenolod> haha. "Oh well, I thought I had less"
[04:49] <nenolod> StevenK, many DMs have more packages on their stack than DDs i have noticed
[04:49] <nenolod> there's one DM that has 40+ packages
[04:49] <StevenK> nenolod: Yes, because most of them are saying "OH, the more packages I have the less they're going to say no!"
[04:50] <bddebian> heh
[04:50] <TheMuso> Thats crazy.
[04:50] <StevenK> Which is complete fallacy
[04:50] <LaserJock> wahoo main (1)
[04:50] <LaserJock> I'm such a loser
[04:50] <StevenK> LaserJock: Ponies!
[04:50] <LaserJock> I do have an ITP though
[04:50] <LaserJock> StevenK: yes master
[04:50] <StevenK> *Finally*
[04:50] <StevenK> LaserJock does listen
[04:50]  * StevenK chuckles
[04:51] <LaserJock> you know if you mess with the creative process the result is utter crap
[04:51] <LaserJock> StevenK: not according to my wife ...
[04:51] <bddebian> WTF main(8) pending (1)
[04:51] <StevenK> Muahaha
[04:51]  * GoldenPony makes pony noises.
[04:51] <bddebian> Oh, games stuff, heh
[04:51]  * LaserJock puts GoldenPony down
[04:51] <StevenK> Hahaha
[04:51]  * GoldenPony dies bloodily.
[04:51] <LaserJock> poor girl, it had to be done
[04:51] <nenolod> StevenK, well, i haven't a chance of becoming a DD anyway
[04:52] <StevenK> They shoot horses, don't they?
[04:52] <nenolod> StevenK, the nearest person in debian-keyring is 1250mi away
[04:52] <nenolod> :D
[04:52] <StevenK> What about ponies?
[04:52] <LaserJock> StevenK: same
[04:52] <TheMuso> c
[04:52] <TheMuso> wrong tab...
[04:52]  * bddebian has no interest in DD anymore
[04:52] <LaserJock> StevenK: except the use tiny bullets
[04:52] <StevenK> bddebian: Because of #debian-devel?
[04:52] <LaserJock> I'm thinking of going for DM
[04:52] <bddebian> StevenK: That's one big one
[04:52] <nenolod> StevenK, i'm taking the policy of packaging everything i have written myself for debian, though
[04:52] <StevenK> Hah
[04:52] <nenolod> StevenK, because some moron tried to say my ircservices software was GPL3
[04:52] <StevenK> bddebian: Ignore them, #debian-devel is useless
[04:53] <nenolod> #debian-devel is trollsville man
[04:53] <nenolod> ;p
[04:54] <nenolod> although it is useful for bothering ganneff about killing wrong uploads ;)
[04:55]  * GoldenPony returns from the dead, mauling LaserJock on the way.
[04:55] <nenolod> i always love maulings
[04:55]  * LaserJock whips out his Laser and cuts of GoldenPony's head
[04:55] <nenolod> (or: omg. ponies. -- your choice)
[04:56] <LaserJock> *off
[04:56] <nenolod> you butcher!
[04:56]  * GoldenPony continues to maul LaserJock... without a head.
[04:56] <StevenK> LaserJock: "Why don't you and the laser get a frigging room."
[04:57]  * LaserJock whips out his Laser and cuts off all of GoldenPony's appendages
[04:57] <LaserJock> StevenK: umm, I already have one
[04:57] <GoldenPony> I'll bite yer legs off!
[04:57] <StevenK> LaserJock: It was a quote.
[04:57] <LaserJock> StevenK: I know
[04:57] <LaserJock> GoldenPony: come back here you panzy!
[04:57] <StevenK> It seems like LaserJock likes whipping out his laser.
[04:58] <GoldenPony> I've had worse!
[04:58] <LaserJock> StevenK: well, it is pretty impressive
[04:58] <nenolod> LaserJock, are you chargin' your laser?
[04:58] <nenolod> ;p
[04:58] <StevenK> LaserJock: I bet you say that to all the boys
[04:58]  * GoldenPony has to agree with its impressiveness.
[04:58] <LaserJock> umm ...
[04:59] <LaserJock> my laser doesn't even cut through metal, it's not *that* cool
[04:59]  * GoldenPony is resurrected, then.
[05:00] <nxvl> well
[05:00] <nxvl> time to sleep
[05:00] <nenolod> LaserJock: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Laser if you didn't get it
[05:00] <nxvl> imbrandon: don't forget to send me the e-mail :D
[05:00] <nenolod> ;p
[05:00] <nenolod> (probably NWS)
[05:00] <nxvl> imbrandon: i'm waiting for it
[05:01] <ajmitch> such violence in here
[05:01] <StevenK> It turns out LaserJock like firing at Ponies! Ponies! Ponies! Ponies! Ponies! Ponies! Ponies! Ponies!
[05:02] <StevenK> *hint*
[05:02]  * GoldenPony charges at ajmitch.
[05:02] <LaserJock> ajmitch: well, what do you expect from an American with a name like LaserJock? :-)
[05:03] <nenolod> it's LaserJock's redneck^Wrural upbringing
[05:03] <nenolod> clearly.
[05:03]  * ajmitch is knocked down
[05:03]  * GoldenPony stomps on ajmitch.
[05:03] <nenolod> actually
[05:03]  * ajmitch dies
[05:03] <nenolod> from what i have observed
[05:03] <GoldenPony> So you should.
[05:03] <nenolod> the general quality of universe is much better than debian/main
[05:04] <nenolod> at least in the packages i have looked at
[05:04] <nenolod> ;)
[05:04] <nenolod> but i'm only interested in Section: sound for the most part
[05:05] <LaserJock> nenolod: that's good at least
[05:05] <nenolod> is there a specific team of sound contributors to ubuntu?
[05:05] <nenolod> i know gentoo has one ;)
[05:05] <LaserJock> yeah, it's call crimsun
[05:05] <LaserJock> *called
[05:06] <bddebian> heh
[05:06] <nenolod> is that on launchpad? :P
[05:06] <LaserJock> yes
[05:07] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~crimsun
[05:07] <StevenK> Although, not right now
[05:07] <nenolod> yes right now launchpad is down
[05:07] <nenolod> :P
[05:07] <StevenK> For the next 30 minutes or so
[05:11]  * ajmitch digs up a laptop
[05:12] <LaserJock> jcastro: you think you're gonna need your flame-proof underwear?
[05:12] <nixternal> why, you want to borrow them LaserJock?
[05:12] <jcastro> LaserJock: bring it
[05:12] <LaserJock> nixternal: not yet
[05:12] <nixternal> hehe
[05:13] <ajmitch> LaserJock: is jcastro stirring again?
[05:13] <LaserJock> jcastro: there might be some webkit fanboys with a voodoo doll with your name on it ;-)
[05:13] <jcastro> bring it
[05:13] <StevenK> LaserJock: Commonly known as Apple fanbois
[05:14] <imbrandon> or apple + kde fanboi's :)
[05:14] <nixternal> webkit ftw!
[05:14] <nixternal> ya, I said it!
[05:15] <RoAkSoAx> hi there! can anyone explain me what is the difference between mergin a package using grab-merge from mom or dad?
[05:15] <LaserJock> jcastro: but the gecko stuff sucks ;-p
[05:15] <jcastro> LaserJock: I'll take sucky over "run by apple" any day of the week
[05:16] <imbrandon> RoAkSoAx: they are the same
[05:16] <nenolod> i'm not a webkit fanboy, but i think that firefox is a memory leaking piece of shit
[05:16] <StevenK> jcastro: Does this mean you hate CUPS now, too?
[05:16] <imbrandon> jcastro: really, atleaste apple contributes back to OSS :)
[05:16]  * TheMuso finally beats proftpd-dfsg into submission.
[05:16] <StevenK> TheMuso: Now that you can't upload it.
[05:17] <RoAkSoAx> imbrandon, thankyou :)
[05:17] <TheMuso> StevenK: Yeah I know. I am happy to wait however.
[05:17] <jcastro> StevenK: cups has always sucked, that's no change.
[05:17] <jcastro> StevenK: thank god for till though, he's a hero
[05:17] <StevenK> Agreed
[05:17] <nenolod> apple fanboys are annoying when combined with ubuntu
[05:17] <LaserJock> jcastro: well, you can have your sucky browser and I'll keep my OS X and we'll call it a draw ;-)
[05:18] <nenolod> it gets us trash like avant-window-navigator
[05:18] <nenolod> :D
[05:18] <jcastro> LaserJock: traitor.
[05:18] <LaserJock> haha
[05:18] <nenolod> i don't see what the attraction to AWN is... someone please enlighten me ;p
[05:18] <LaserJock> OS X is a beautiful OS
[05:18] <imbrandon> heh you know what REALLY sucks , i cant get $linux to work on my iMac ( well not with X ) but OS X 10.4 works fine [ where $linux == ubuntu > 5.10 , suse, &  fedora ]
[05:18] <nenolod> answers like "it's like MacOS11!11!11 ROFL!%RT^@%%^PWN" are unacceptable
[05:19] <nenolod> this is unix, not fisher price
[05:19] <nenolod> ;p
[05:19] <LaserJock> lol
[05:19]  * StevenK burns "Fanboi" into LaserJock's forehead using his own laser
[05:19] <RAOF> nenolod: Every 10 minutes you use awn, a pony appears in your appartment
[05:19] <LaserJock> StevenK: hehe
[05:19] <nenolod> RAOF, every 10 minutes someone uses awn, $deity kills a kitten
[05:19] <nenolod> =)
[05:19] <ajmitch> ponies!
[05:19] <LaserJock> StevenK: I don't know about Fanboi
[05:19] <imbrandon> nenolod: useability , i personaly find the dock a whole lot better than taskbar+menu
[05:19] <LaserJock> I just like it
[05:20]  * ajmitch sits on planet ubuntu & hits reload
[05:20] <nenolod> imbrandon, fair enough
[05:20] <LaserJock> OS X is a very productive OS for me
[05:20] <nenolod> i don't like OS X
[05:20] <nenolod> it doesn't do what i want
[05:20] <LaserJock> it could perhaps be more productive for me tha Ubuntu
[05:20] <nenolod> and it's terminal.app sucks
[05:20] <nenolod> ;p
[05:20]  * nixternal seconds nenolod on the OS X stuff
[05:20] <LaserJock> but Ubuntu has more potential
[05:20] <ajmitch> productive enough for ponies?
[05:20] <nixternal> so does DOS :p
[05:21] <LaserJock> nenolod: terminal.app is special, but it works generally fine
[05:21] <LaserJock> for me
[05:21] <nenolod> <insert troll about MS Vista being better than Ubuntu here>
[05:21] <nixternal> I'm movin' to the country, gonna eat a lot of peaches
[05:21] <imbrandon> nenolod: +fink +konsole
[05:21] <nenolod> sorry, i almost couldn't hit enter on that last line without vomiting
[05:21] <nenolod> ;p
[05:21] <StevenK> imbrandon: Konsole isn't an improvement
[05:21] <nixternal> Vista is better than Ubuntu hands down, the rest are just mortals compared to Kubuntu :p
[05:21] <nenolod> hey! i like gnome 2.20!
[05:21] <nenolod> i'm shocked that i like it, but i do
[05:22] <nenolod> especially considering that i have disliked every gnome2 release since 2.8
[05:22] <imbrandon> StevenK: over terminal.app it is
[05:22] <nixternal> hehe, I have been trying to use it more and more on my desktop
[05:22] <nenolod> terminal.app is worthless
[05:22] <nixternal> millions of peaches, peaches for me, millions of peaches, peaches for free!
[05:22] <TheMuso> Has there been any other GUI besides the Mac OSs that have put the menu bar at the top of the screen, separate from the windows?
[05:22] <nenolod> it's just enough of a terminal to make MacOS fanbois go "lol unix"
[05:23] <RAOF> nixternal: mmmmmm, peaches.  Peaches crushed under the golden hooves of a million shiny ponies.
[05:23] <nenolod> TheMuso, Next and AmigaOS did something similar.
[05:23] <nixternal> RAOF: works for me :)
[05:23] <TheMuso> nenolod: Right.
[05:23] <ajmitch> RAOF: shiny, golden ponies?
[05:23] <imbrandon> TheMuso: Next
[05:23] <RAOF> ajmitch: Glistening in the summer sunset.
[05:23] <LaserJock> oh my gosh, if I see "ponies" one more time I think I'm gonna puke
[05:23] <nenolod> "ponies"
[05:24] <nixternal> P O N I E S ! ! !
[05:24]  * nenolod hands LaserJock a bucket
[05:24] <TheMuso> IMO it seems to be a strange idea.
[05:24] <imbrandon> poniez ?
[05:24]  * LaserJock runs for the bathroom
[05:24] <nenolod> TheMuso, i agree
[05:24] <nixternal> LaserJock: be careful, there is a pony in your bathroom!
[05:24] <RAOF> I'd quite like to try it, but I don't have a mac handy.
[05:24] <imbrandon> TheMuso: its to save screen realestate back int he 800x600 and lower days
[05:24] <nenolod> RAOF, http://www.thepiratebay.com
[05:24] <imbrandon> RAOF: OSx86
[05:24] <TheMuso> imbrandon: heh and to confuse one as to whether an app was still open
[05:25] <nenolod> i fully support using OSX86 if your goal is to learn just how bad MacOS really is
[05:25] <RAOF> TheMuso: That's simple.  Apps are never closed, merely waiting :)
[05:25] <nenolod> ;)
[05:25]  * nixternal hears black helicoptors hovering over the house...someone said the P Bay word
[05:25]  * TheMuso still has OS X installed on his mini, but has no use for it.
[05:25] <imbrandon> RAOF: exactly
[05:25] <RAOF> An idea that I heartily approve of.
[05:25]  * ajmitch still has windows XP installed on his laptop
[05:26] <imbrandon> KDE does the same thing for some apps , e.g. konqueror
[05:26] <TheMuso> I really should remove it, and juse Linux on the entire drive.
[05:26] <imbrandon> juse, cool word, just+use? hehe
[05:26] <nenolod> i don't use my mac anymore
[05:26] <nenolod> because snd-aoa is borked on it
[05:26] <nenolod> :D
[05:27] <nenolod> maybe it'll be fixed in hardy
[05:27] <imbrandon> i dont use mine anymore either, my 6 year old does, although i might put her togather a chap x86 and use the ppc for a buildd
[05:27] <nenolod> :P
[05:27] <nenolod> my ppc is a buildd for backports.dereferenced.org
[05:27] <nenolod> ;p
[05:28]  * TheMuso will eventually use OS X when he starts developing cross-platform audio games.
[05:28] <bddebian> audio game?
[05:28] <imbrandon> mpg123
[05:28] <TheMuso> bddebian: Yeah. Games that only use sound for gameplay.
[05:28] <imbrandon> :)
[05:28] <nenolod> sounds demoscene
[05:29] <bddebian> Never heard of such a thing :-)
[05:29] <TheMuso> bddebian: Thats because they are really only known in the blind community.
[05:30] <nenolod> TheMuso is blind? :P
[05:30] <bddebian> Ah yes, makes sense
[05:30] <TheMuso> nenolod: I have a vision impairement, yes.
[05:30] <nenolod> TheMuso, ah ok
[05:31] <imbrandon> hrm you know if the internet was really made popular by porn you would think linux would be the uber OS , because you can surf pron all day long and not get a windows based virus
[05:31] <TheMuso> nenolod: I can enjoy visual games to an extent, but totally blind people only have games that are only in sound.
[05:32] <jcastro> LaserJock: you were right, the maclots are on me already
[05:33] <StevenK> jcastro: They've already posted comments?
[05:33] <jcastro> StevenK: yep
[05:34] <LaserJock> jcastro: maybe I'll go do one
[05:34] <jcastro> StevenK: I've learned that no matter how fringe, extremist, or insane the linux community can be ... that the mac people are worse.
[05:34] <imbrandon> jcastro: what about peoplke that are members of both :)
[05:35] <StevenK> jcastro: Try BSD? :-P
[05:35] <LaserJock> "OMG, OS X rulz!! Safari is from god you idiot! What is this webkit stuff you speak of?"
[05:35] <jcastro> imbrandon: dude, don't make me drive out there and punch you.
[05:35] <imbrandon> jcastro: hahahaha
[05:35]  * StevenK beats LaserJock with GoldenPony
[05:35] <imbrandon> LaserJock: wow thats like the perfect quote
[05:36] <jcastro> StevenK: well, I'm not concerned about the whole 6 BSD users. :p
[05:36] <nenolod> TheMuso, ah ok :)
[05:36] <StevenK> Dear. :-P
[05:36] <imbrandon> yea i think the BSD versioning is based on useage e.g 6.2 users 7 in beta
[05:37] <nixternal> there are 8 including me!
[05:37] <imbrandon> .2 is RMS, he has a sekrit shell on ftp.cdrom.com
[05:37] <StevenK> The OpenBSD versioning is based on how many people in the whole world don't think Theo de Raadt is an arsehole
[05:37] <nixternal> hahaha
[05:38] <nixternal> well, if that is the case, then it is back to 7
[05:40] <LaserJock> well, Gentoo is the best OS anyway so the debate is mute
[05:41] <TheMuso> rofl
[05:42] <ajmitch> gentoo? what's that?
[05:42] <imbrandon> emerge LaserRock
[05:42] <LaserJock> ajmitch: a file manager
[05:42] <ajmitch> ah right
[05:42] <imbrandon> iirc its a clone of emacs in vim mode
[05:42] <LaserJock> I wonder how many people read the Debian New Maintainer Guide and are "what the heck? is this Debian or Gentoo?"
[05:42] <bddebian> pfft GNU/Hurd rulez j00! ;-P
[05:43] <LaserJock> bddebian: if you can boot it
[05:43] <bddebian> I boot it on 5 machines :-)
[05:43] <imbrandon> bddebian: pfft debian/hurd dosent have an installer
[05:43] <bddebian> Sure we do
[05:43] <imbrandon> ?
[05:43] <nenolod> hurd sucks
[05:43] <nenolod> ;p
[05:43] <imbrandon> the last time i looked at the page it mentioned installing normaly and bootstrapping the hurd install
[05:44] <imbrandon> i was like ummm yea , 1996 called
[05:44] <bddebian> You can do that or use an iso.  Albeit the installer sucks
[05:44]  * imbrandon ducks
[05:44] <imbrandon> then again i have a ReactOS install too, that cant be much better
[05:44] <nenolod> innit the hurd installer that is still based on bootfloppies-2.4
[05:48]  * highvoltage didn't even realise the hurd has an installer
[05:49]  * LaserJock smakes nixternal 
[05:49] <nixternal> smakes?
[05:49] <LaserJock> whatever
[05:49] <highvoltage> smacks.
[05:49] <LaserJock> *smacks
[05:49]  * nixternal cmakes LaserJock 
[05:49] <imbrandon> like cmake only harder
[05:49] <nixternal> cmake FTW anyways
[05:49]  * bddebian casts scons
[05:49] <nixternal> haha
[05:50] <imbrandon> heh
[05:50] <LaserJock> run away!!
[05:50] <imbrandon> hrm i wonder if we could ever convice everyone to use cmake ?
[05:50] <LaserJock> everyone?
[05:50] <nixternal> imbrandon: no, because the other side thinks it is evil
[05:50] <imbrandon> e.g. non-qt/kde apps
[05:51] <LaserJock> not until it has more features
[05:51] <nixternal> it has more than enough features, just need to know how to use the .cmakeArgs
[05:51] <LaserJock> it was causing me consternation because it doesn't handle convenience libs
[05:52] <nixternal> such as?
[05:52] <LaserJock> hmm?
[05:53] <nixternal> nevermind that :) I looked past *convenience* on that
[05:53] <LaserJock> http://www.cmake.org/Wiki/CMake_FAQ#Does_CMake_support_.22convenience.22_libraries.3F
[05:55] <nenolod> cmake sucks
[05:55] <nenolod> you can convince me to use cmake by making it not suck
[05:55] <LaserJock> I love the colors and progress indication though
[05:55] <nixternal> opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one..and some people have 2
[05:56]  * LaserJock briefly wonders how that works
[05:56] <LaserJock> and moves on
[05:56] <nixternal> LaserJock: dunno, but I am guessing it can get messy
[05:56] <nenolod> nixternal, cmake is C++. that's strike 1.
[05:57] <nenolod> buildtools shouldn't break if libstdc++ ABI breaks
[05:57] <nixternal> ahh, an anti-c++ person...
[05:57]  * nixternal puts his blinds up
[05:57] <StevenK> However, cmake isn't autotools, so +1
[05:57] <nenolod> i'm not anti-c++
[05:57] <nixternal> if you weren't, then it wouldn't have been a strike, possibly a ball?
[05:57] <nenolod> nixternal: i just want buildtools which can survive libstdc++ transitions
[05:58] <nenolod> autotools sucks worse than cmake, but cmake becomes instantly disqualified due to it's dependence on STL
[05:59] <nenolod> basically, put, if everything used CMake and g++ guys bumped SONAME on libstdc++, then CMake would have to be rebuilt before anything else
[06:00] <nenolod> and that's my issue with cmake
[06:00] <imbrandon> nenolod: and thats a strike?
[06:00] <nenolod> imbrandon, it's more like a strikeout
[06:00] <nenolod> ;p
[06:00] <imbrandon> i would want bits of my toolchain updated if needbe
[06:00] <imbrandon> and cmake is one of the bits of my toolchain, so not an issue
[06:01] <nenolod> imbrandon, my point is that the advantages and disadvantages of using cmake are still unclear to me
[06:01] <nenolod> i will see how it pans out
[06:01] <nenolod> ;p
[06:01] <imbrandon> thats like saying , if the kernel updates you need a new initramfs , so lets not use initramfs
[06:01] <imbrandon> :P
[06:02] <bddebian> Ah well, gnight gang
[06:02] <imbrandon> gnight bd
[06:02] <imbrandon> bddebian: *
[06:03]  * ajmitch needs a faster laptop
[06:04] <LaserJock> pfft
[06:04] <imbrandon> i just need a laptop peroid
[06:04] <imbrandon> hehe
[06:04] <nixternal> I want a new one
[06:04]  * LaserJock pulls out his ClassmatePC and scrunches his fingers
[06:04] <nixternal> I don't know if I want a smaller screen or a larger screen though
[06:05] <jcastro> imbrandon: what size you looking for?
[06:05] <imbrandon> jcastro: anything, i've been using a p200mhz desktop for 2 months now ( but an eeepc is on my wishlist )
[06:05] <jcastro> imbrandon: so, a small one, like, 12 inches?
[06:06] <imbrandon> yea
[06:06] <jcastro> or do you want an xbox sized one?
[06:06] <jcastro> imbrandon: you want an hp 2510p
[06:06] <nixternal> imbrandon: my buddy just got an eee and is showing it off in ubuntu-chicago..that thing is farkin' sweet... imbrandon check the pic links in #kubuntu-devel that I posted
[06:06] <imbrandon> hahah , nah the smaller the better imho
[06:06]  * TheMuso didn't realise that MoM depends on lp.
[06:06]  * StevenK waits for Launchpad
[06:06] <jcastro> imbrandon: matthew garrett approved.
[06:06] <imbrandon> hp2510p ?
[06:06] <StevenK> jcastro: For what?
[06:06]  * imbrandon looks it up
[06:06] <StevenK> Oh, of the laptop
[06:06] <jcastro> right
[06:06] <nixternal> 2510 is a good linux lappy
[06:07] <ajmitch> TheMuso: sure, I think it relies on the librarian amongst other things
[06:07] <nixternal> all but wifi works out of the box, and I believe you have to use ndiswrapper with it
[06:07] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Why wouldn't it? That's where it gets everything. $world depends on LP.
[06:07] <StevenK> jcastro: Was that the one he was using at UDS/FossCamp?
[06:07] <jcastro> imbrandon: led backlight, 1280 x whatever screen
[06:07] <jcastro> StevenK: yep
[06:07] <imbrandon> nice
[06:07] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I thought it didn't. Oh well.
[06:07] <jcastro> 5+ hours of battery
[06:07]  * ajmitch tries to make sense of the last message on -devel-discuss
[06:07] <imbrandon> jcastro: under 1.5K ?
[06:07] <StevenK> jcastro: Ahh. I heard him talking about it's ACPI and device tables
[06:08] <Fujitsu> ubuntu!
[06:08] <jcastro> imbrandon: I maxed mine out at $1600
[06:08] <imbrandon> nice i'm on the hp site now
[06:08] <StevenK> I wonder if jono has killed Sony yet
[06:08] <jcastro> imbrandon: 2510p is the thing to search for
[06:08] <LaserJock> ajmitch: you even try?
[06:08] <jcastro> StevenK: his keyboard is dead
[06:08] <imbrandon> http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/321957-321957-64295-321838-306995-3355633.html
[06:08] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I blinked & went "huh?"
[06:09] <StevenK> jcastro: I'm well aware, which is why I'm wondering
[06:09] <jcastro> imbrandon: that's the one.
[06:09] <jcastro> imbrandon: fair disclosure: it's not working well in gutsy
[06:09] <imbrandon> 64 GB Solid State Drive  !!!!!!!!
[06:09] <imbrandon> sold
[06:09] <StevenK> Heh
[06:09] <Fujitsu> Sound expensive.
[06:09] <Fujitsu> +s
[06:09] <LaserJock> ajmitch: the one with the excellent title of "ubuntu"?
[06:09] <jcastro> imbrandon: but, it's nice to have the same laptop as mjg59
[06:10] <imbrandon> true
[06:10] <jcastro> imbrandon: I was a thinkpad whore before. But unfortunately the X61 still came with a 1024x768 screen
[06:10] <LaserJock> jcastro: unless it's his "hmm, how the heck can I get this to work?" box ;-)
[06:11] <imbrandon> 2gb of ram + 64GB ssd, and stock everything else, yea i'm sold next payday
[06:11] <jcastro> LaserJock: it isn't, he had an x40 before like me
[06:11] <ajmitch> LaserJock: yep
[06:11] <jcastro> LaserJock: I was actually relieved when he told me he had this hp, it validated my laptop-choosing process
[06:12]  * StevenK hugs his X40
[06:12] <jcastro> imbrandon: you can even get it with freedos instead of windows. Not an ubuntu preinstall, but still a nice option
[06:12]  * TheMuso hugs his R50.
[06:12] <LaserJock> jcastro: hmm, mine is "find the cheapest thing you can find at the moment you have the money for it"
[06:12] <imbrandon> jcastro: i noticed
[06:12]  * LaserJock tosses his Toshiba piece of junk
[06:13] <jcastro> LaserJock: find your closest hp dealer
[06:13] <jcastro> you need two keywords
[06:13] <jcastro> "debian" and "ubuntu"
[06:13] <LaserJock> jcastro: I have an HP desktop that I'm not very happy with
[06:13] <LaserJock> I had a PS fan go bad
[06:14] <jcastro> consumer grade or the real stuff?
[06:14] <LaserJock> and they made me sent the whole machine back
[06:14] <LaserJock> and the formated my hard drive
[06:14] <LaserJock> for a freaking PS fan
[06:14] <LaserJock> it's actually cause it had Ubuntu on it
[06:14] <LaserJock> the made it "factory new"
[06:14] <Fujitsu> Ubuntu kills your desktop power supply!
[06:15] <LaserJock> idiots
[06:15] <imbrandon> jcastro: did you get the ssd ?
[06:15] <LaserJock> jcastro: umm, it was from walmart
[06:15] <LaserJock> hence the "cheapest thing I can find at the moment I had the money"
[06:15] <jcastro> LaserJock: oh, that's why
[06:15] <LaserJock> yeah yeah
[06:16] <jcastro> imbrandon: no, it wasn't an option when I buyed it
[06:16] <StevenK> Don't buy computers from WalMart
[06:16] <LaserJock> now I was looking for a manual for the motherboard
[06:16] <jcastro> imbrandon: I stupidly bought a generic ssd from newegg
[06:16] <jcastro> which didn't fit
[06:16] <LaserJock> but come to find out that it doesn't exist
[06:16] <imbrandon> heh
[06:16] <jcastro> so I am putting that in the desktop instead
[06:16] <LaserJock> so I can't figure out the pins for the front panel stuff
[06:17] <LaserJock> StevenK: it's hard not to sometimes. I like seeing what I'm getting usually
[06:17] <jcastro> LaserJock: yeah there's a real difference between normal consumer-grade and business-grade
[06:17] <imbrandon> StevenK: unless its a gOS , walmart sells ubuntu hehe
[06:17] <jcastro> at oakland I bought all hp business-grade stuff, and it was rock solid
[06:17] <StevenK> I agree with jcastro
[06:17] <LaserJock> I kinda dislike buying $1000+ items off the net without even seeing one first
[06:18] <jcastro> you can buy it all with debian too
[06:18] <jcastro> so you know it works in ubuntu
[06:18] <StevenK> For example, with the X40, you can *tell* it it isn't a consumer grade device
[06:18] <jcastro> and server side, the proliants are just ruthless
[06:18] <StevenK> jcastro: Ubuntu/Canonical should know :-)
[06:18] <LaserJock> are compaq computers better or worse than HP?
[06:18] <jcastro> StevenK: yeah, first thing I asked elmo
[06:18] <imbrandon> i've always liked the dell servers better than HP's
[06:18] <nixternal> LaserJock: pretty much the same
[06:19] <jcastro> I was like "dude, I know you're an hp shop, right?"
[06:19] <nixternal> I am a Compaq fan..Carley did a ton for that company
[06:19] <StevenK> jcastro: Last job, I tried to get HP, but I was turned down.
[06:19] <jcastro> LaserJock: the hp stuff tends to be their business line, compaq is more of the stuff you find at best buy
[06:19] <nixternal> yup, unless we are talking DL380s or DL360s
[06:19] <StevenK> jcastro: Not because of the hardware - but because HP outsourced their support in .au and it's *SHITE*
[06:20] <jcastro> heh
[06:20] <jcastro> for me it was easy
[06:20] <StevenK> The UK and US have real life HP people
[06:20] <jcastro> hp tests all their stuff internally on debian (yay bdale!), so the choice was easy for ubuntu servers
[06:20]  * nixternal used to work for HP as a real life person
[06:20] <nixternal> in good ol' Hotlanta
[06:21] <jcastro> StevenK: my only beef is that stupid torx thing ...
[06:21] <jcastro> granted, they provide the tool
[06:21] <nixternal> jcastro: you need a torx bit for hp/compaq?
[06:21] <jcastro> but still ... grr...
[06:21] <nixternal> hehe, you got one already...I have about 100 of them
[06:21] <jcastro> nixternal: for some things, most of it is screwless
[06:21] <StevenK> jcastro: Sorry, I don't recognise that beef - can you expand a little?
[06:21] <jcastro> each server comes with a full torx kit
[06:21] <jcastro> still, a pain in the ass
[06:22] <LaserJock> unfortunately my uni only does Dell and Apple, I can get decent discounts
[06:22] <nixternal> I was amazed with this laptop, when i went to upgrade the ram, it was a philips screw
[06:22] <jcastro> StevenK: there's a screw called torx, it's a six sided head, not like philips or flathead
[06:23] <jcastro> hp uses it alot internally
[06:23] <StevenK> jcastro: I know that bit
[06:23] <jcastro> they include the tool
[06:23] <jcastro> it's just weird having to use torx
[06:23] <jcastro> no one else does
[06:23] <StevenK> Ah
[06:23] <StevenK> Compaq used to
[06:23] <StevenK> Maybe that's why HP targetted them
[06:23] <jcastro> yeah, they inherited it from compaq
[06:23] <imbrandon> jcastro: compaq and MS use it
[06:23] <StevenK> "They're using our bit! Get them!"
[06:24] <jcastro> like, I dig that they include the tool
[06:24] <jcastro> but dang ... retire it already
[06:24] <imbrandon> XBox and XBox 360 both use torx
[06:24] <imbrandon> :)
[06:24] <imbrandon> t10 and t20 sizes
[06:24] <StevenK> jcastro: You'd just prefer Phillips head?
[06:24] <jcastro> of note: I have friends that swear by torx because they don't strip, so to each their own
[06:25] <jcastro> StevenK: to be honest I like the snap on jobs that require no tools
[06:25]  * Fujitsu wonders what broke the LP upgrade this time.
[06:25] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: gets a bit tiring doesn't it
[06:25] <StevenK> jcastro: Yeah. The servers we ended up buying were Dell, and they are screwless, which is nice
[06:26] <jcastro> man, for the longest time, dell didn't have snap on rails
[06:26] <jcastro> god, that was so painful
[06:26] <jcastro> and compaq/hp had them forever
[06:26] <StevenK> Oh, don't talk about rails and Dell
[06:26] <jcastro> oh, I went there!
[06:26] <TheMuso> Until the clips break.
[06:26]  * imbrandon loves PERC 5/i controlers , it got GSI to move to ubuntu vs centos
[06:27] <StevenK> jcastro: The head of Engeering is *old school*, and the Dell rails don't fit with the configuration of the racks
[06:27] <jcastro> imbrandon: PERC as in ... Pray Everything Rebuilds Correctly?
[06:27] <imbrandon> jcastro: haha PERC controlers have saved my ass many times
[06:27] <jcastro> imbrandon: dude, those things have fucked me over just as many
[06:28] <imbrandon> i would be the 3/i and below sucked
[06:28] <imbrandon> 4 is ok, but 5 rocks
[06:28] <jcastro> StevenK: yep, had the same problems
[06:28] <jcastro> except I had students try to make them fit
[06:28] <jcastro> bendy city
[06:28] <imbrandon> LOL
[06:28] <imbrandon> suprised they dident just shelf them
[06:29] <jcastro> well, in the end, we piled them on a bunch of tables
[06:29] <StevenK> jcastro: Hah. The head of eng. made them fit - by taking them home and attacking them with his tool box
[06:29] <imbrandon> LOL
[06:29] <jcastro> before I left my .edu job we did a huge purchase order for some hp ltsp servers
[06:29] <jcastro> 2U, 32gb of ram, dual quads
[06:30] <imbrandon> try fitting standard rackmount stuff on a telco rack , thats painfull
[06:30] <imbrandon> jcastro: yea we had about 1000 of those only dell
[06:30] <jcastro> they're rocking with ltsp load balancing now
[06:30] <jcastro> pure sex
[06:30] <imbrandon> 2u 32GB or 64GB ram 4 or 8 core
[06:30] <imbrandon> vmware esx servers is what we used them for
[06:30] <jcastro> dude you check the blades out?
[06:31] <imbrandon> with san storage
[06:31] <jcastro> you can get 32gb of ram on a half heigh blade these days
[06:31] <jcastro> it's ridiculous
[06:31] <imbrandon> yup
[06:31] <StevenK> Oh yes
[06:31] <siretart> morning
[06:31] <StevenK> I think HP pack RAM in like luggage - two DIMMs to every slot
[06:31] <imbrandon> heya siretart
[06:31] <LaserJock> man, you guys make me jelous
[06:32] <jcastro> \o/ siretart!!!
[06:32] <LaserJock> I've never even seen a real life rack-mounted server
[06:32] <StevenK> LaserJock: Please be kidding
[06:32] <LaserJock> I'm serious
[06:32]  * siretart noticed that 1GB ram for my thinkpad is available for around EUR 20
[06:32] <LaserJock> we have clusters
[06:32] <jcastro> LaserJock: you're not missing much. Just more work....
[06:32] <LaserJock> but they are 15-20 regular boxes stacked on shelfs
[06:32] <imbrandon> LaserJock: with customers like BurgerKing , Microsoft, CokeCola etc, money for servers isnt a big deal hehe
[06:32] <StevenK> % free -m | head -n 2 | tail -n 1
[06:32] <StevenK> Mem:         48864      47597       1267          0       4236      34310
[06:32] <jcastro> LaserJock: man, you'd dig this.
[06:33] <jcastro> LaserJock: so like, I was hire at my last job to bring in linux
[06:33] <jcastro> at oakland.edu
[06:33] <jcastro> The day after
[06:33] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:33] <jcastro> like, on the dot
[06:33] <jcastro> exact day
[06:33] <jcastro> Sun walks in
[06:33] <siretart> btw, did anyone see my reply to imbrandon on the ubuntuwire list?
[06:33] <jcastro> and promises our engineering departmen like $75k worth of hardware
[06:33] <jcastro> to move back to solaris
[06:34] <imbrandon> siretart: yup, i just havent replied yet, i think the TOS idea was great
[06:34] <StevenK> jcastro: *Geeeez*
[06:34] <LaserJock> jcastro: heh
[06:34] <jcastro> including (this is the best)
[06:34] <jcastro> replacing each LTSP client with a sun ray
[06:34] <StevenK> Hah!
[06:34] <jcastro> Note: we gave 300 sunrays to charity the year before to charity
[06:35] <siretart> imbrandon: TOS?
[06:35] <StevenK> I'm a charity can I have one?
[06:35] <siretart> the bug workflow, or the virtualisation?
[06:35]  * StevenK chuckles
[06:35] <jcastro> wow, shitty english on my part
[06:35] <imbrandon> siretart: dump
[06:35] <ajmitch> hi siretart
[06:35] <imbrandon> dmup*
[06:35] <jcastro> StevenK: worthless, you can't reverse engineer them
[06:35] <siretart> hey ajmitch!
[06:35] <imbrandon> heh
[06:35] <siretart> imbrandon: aah, I see
[06:36] <siretart> jcastro: we use sunrays at our department
[06:36] <siretart> running debian/lenny
[06:36] <StevenK> jcastro: I don't want to reverse engineer them, I want to run Ubuntu on it. :-)
[06:36] <imbrandon> brb restarting X
[06:36] <jcastro> StevenK: they depend on the sun ray server software. It's basically the worst software ever written
[06:36] <jcastro> I'll send you one though
[06:37] <jcastro> I used to think I could make them work
[06:37] <StevenK> I've heard about the Sun Ray server stack
[06:37] <siretart> http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~simigern/sunray-debian/ <- make sunrays work with debian/ubuntu
[06:37] <siretart> works like a charm at our department
[06:37] <jcastro> siretart: got that tshirt a long time ago
[06:38] <jcastro> we cut our losses and just went ltsp
[06:38] <siretart> ah
[06:38] <StevenK> So you can't just have an installation on a Sun Ray, you need a Sun Ray server, too?
[06:38] <siretart> the sunray server software is indeed a beast, true
[06:39] <siretart> StevenK: yes. the sunrays run a proprietary firmware, which works with nothing else than the SRSS
[06:39] <StevenK> Ewww
[06:39] <jcastro> http://stompbox.typepad.com/blog/2007/11/firefox-apply-d.html#comment-90873188
[06:39] <jcastro> scroll to the bottom
[06:39] <siretart> the worst thing about that is that they use a pretty strange x server: Xnewt
[06:40] <siretart> on solaris, they use 'Xsun', the regular xserver for sun
[06:40] <jcastro> siretart: yeah, I'll take my chances with ltsp
[06:40] <siretart> Xnewt is a fork from some ancient version of xorg
[06:40] <jcastro> yeah
[06:41] <nixternal> jcastro: wow, less than 1%
[06:41] <jcastro> man
[06:41] <nixternal> Asa responded pretty quick
[06:41] <jcastro> that's just ... sad
[06:42] <nixternal> jcastro: I wonder though, if that 1% only download FF through the website?
[06:42] <nixternal> I doubt that covers the FF installed with each distro
[06:42] <jcastro> nixternal: I was going to follow that up, stand by
[06:42] <slangasek> wait, so was this not a story about how the bigwigs were suckered in by the dollar signs and went back to Sun, letting jcastro go the day after he was hired?  what a disappointing story, where's the drama?
[06:42] <StevenK> Hahah
[06:42] <jcastro> slangasek: that's a lie
[06:42] <jcastro> who would want to work for sun?
[06:43] <jcastro> oh wait.
[06:43]  * nixternal whistles to himself
[06:43] <StevenK> Hahaha
[06:43] <nixternal> shush jcastro :p
[06:43] <jcastro> this is awesome
[06:43] <StevenK> "Community leader learns to read. Film at 11."
[06:43] <nixternal> I worked for them bastards when I got out of the military, up to the point where they closed all of the Chicago offices
[06:43] <jcastro> hey slangasek, you know what I love about sun?
[06:43] <nixternal> they lay you off by calling you on the phone?
[06:43] <slangasek> getting a farmer's tan?
[06:43] <nixternal> that is what I loved about them
[06:43] <jcastro> haha ... NOTHING.
[06:44] <StevenK> Personally, I think their rack mounted server look pretty and shiny, but that's about it
[06:44] <nixternal> the best thing I got out of working there was the free classes
[06:44] <StevenK> servers, even
[06:44] <jcastro> StevenK: I tested it
[06:44]  * nixternal used to swear by their Enterprise servers
[06:44] <jcastro> StevenK: hp for the win, but a long shot
[06:44] <nixternal> dude, an E10 with Solaris 2.6 rocked hardcore!
[06:45] <nixternal> with their amazing top knotch fiber array that broke down like once a month
[06:45] <StevenK> jcastro: HP for the win, in the pretty and shiny department?
[06:46] <jcastro> StevenK: it's been rocking for me for 3 years, I'll take that pepsi challenge with anyone on any hardware
[06:46] <TheMuso> LP seems to be up again...
[06:47] <imbrandon> apple Xserv for the win in the shiney dept
[06:47] <StevenK> imbrandon: Fanboi
[06:47] <StevenK> jcastro: Back up the pretty and shiny with pictures?
[06:48]  * LaserJock <3 Apple
[06:48] <imbrandon> heh
[06:48] <jcastro> ?
[06:48] <jcastro> StevenK: imbrandon is the fanatic, make him bring up the pics
[06:48] <imbrandon> you know the bad part? the company i work for is doing an Apple website , and its fskin run on win2k3 server
[06:49] <StevenK> That'll learn them
[06:51] <imbrandon> plus the new xserve with quad core 3ghz, and 2.5tb storage in 1U AND is shiny :)
[06:51] <imbrandon> http://www.apple.com/xserve/
[06:52] <imbrandon> 2 or 3 of those + an Xsan , w00t /me is in heaven
[06:53] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:53] <LaserJock> I just want something that breaks the 2GHz barrier
[06:53] <LaserJock> :-)
[07:03] <imbrandon> got quiet
[07:04] <nixternal> that it did
[07:04] <nixternal> of course, leave it to midwesterners to break it :)
[07:04] <slangasek> to break the quiet?
[07:05] <nixternal> ya
[07:05] <nixternal> I was starting to fall asleep
[07:05] <TheMuso> We've all gone to upload crack. :)
[07:05] <LaserJock> nixternal: <fargo accent> sooo, gettin' a little quiet in here eh?</fargo accent>
[07:06] <slangasek> I hope you're not implying Fargo is in the Midwest
[07:06] <LaserJock> seems like it to me
[07:07] <LaserJock> or is my geography off
[07:07] <slangasek> blasphemy
[07:07]  * imbrandon was thinking fargo from eureka
[07:07] <nixternal> man, I missed Fargo on tv the other night
[07:07] <nixternal> they say that new moview 'something about land and old men' or something, can possibly be better than fargo
[07:08] <nixternal> that will be a hard one to beat
[07:09] <nixternal> fargo is in the midwest
[07:09] <nixternal> and oddly enough, so is ohio
[07:09] <LaserJock> well, it's East for me
[07:09] <LaserJock> anything east of the rockies is "back east" for me
[07:09] <nixternal> hah
[07:10] <slangasek> Fargo's in the Great Plains and Ohio is in the Mideast :-P
[07:10] <LaserJock> "you goin' back east I hear", "yeah, Chicago"
[07:10] <LaserJock> Denver is about as far east as you can go and still be West
[07:11] <nenolod> lies
[07:11] <nixternal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census_Regions_and_Divisions.PNG
[07:11] <nixternal> that shows ND in the midwest
[07:12]  * slangasek scoffs at the census
[07:12] <nixternal> lol
[07:12] <imbrandon> i'm smack in the middle so no one can doubt me
[07:12] <imbrandon> :)
[07:12] <slangasek> that's just because there aren't enough people in ND to deserve their own census office
[07:13] <LaserJock> slangasek: pfft, there are plenty of people in ND
[07:13] <imbrandon> slangasek: there are people in ND ?
[07:13] <slangasek> haha
[07:13] <imbrandon> lol
[07:13] <LaserJock> shesh, I'm from Montana, ND has loads of people
[07:13] <nixternal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_map-Midwest.PNG
[07:14] <LaserJock> Wyoming is a little light on people, but ND has plenty
[07:14] <nixternal> now if you follow the real midwest map, then Fargo can be considered the midwest, but slangasek is correct about the great plains instead
[07:14] <nixternal> dark red states == midwest, striped states != midwest except by the census
[07:15] <LaserJock> whatever
[07:15] <LaserJock> he's been doing some kind of Debian crack that messes with your geographic senses
[07:15]  * slangasek lights a pipe shaped like Idaho
[07:15] <LaserJock> nice
[07:16] <nenolod> a good pipe for craq
[07:16] <nenolod> however, i'd say one shaped like utah might be better!
[07:16] <nixternal> hahaha
[07:16] <nixternal> shaped like idao
[07:17] <dholbach> good morning
[07:17] <ajmitch> hi dholbach
[07:17] <dholbach> heya ajmitch
[07:17] <LaserJock> uh oh, time for bed
[07:17] <TheMuso> Hey dholbach.
[07:17]  * dholbach hugs LaserJock
[07:17] <dholbach> hey TheMuso
[07:17] <dholbach> . o O { LaserRock }
[07:17] <imbrandon> ello dholbach
[07:17] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:17] <dholbach> heya imbrandon
[07:18]  * slangasek offers dholbach a pipe shaped like Nordrhein-Holstein in greeting
[07:18] <slangasek> (there, /now/ my geography's screwed up)
[07:18] <dholbach> slangasek: a pipe? Nordrhein-Westfalen? Schleswig-Holstein?
[07:18] <slangasek> dholbach: yes
[07:18] <LaserJock> nixternal: I wonder what would happen if I "fixed" that wikipedia map
[07:19] <dholbach> slangasek: you're the second guy on the internet to surprise me with unexpected german geography knowledge :)
[07:19] <LaserJock> clearly somebody from New York or something made that figure
[07:19] <nixternal> LaserJock: you would have a bunch of 13 year olds with PhD's coming after you
[07:19] <slangasek> LaserJock: I'm from Iowa and I agree with it, so boogers to you
[07:19] <dholbach> the first one was cjwatson who knew off the top of his head in which part of germany a city was
[07:19] <slytherin> TheMuso: is it ok to file ppc specific bugs in launchpad considering that it is not officially supported platform?
[07:19] <LaserJock> slangasek: clearly you're lacking objectivity then ;-p
[07:20] <slangasek> oh yes, New Yorkers and Iowans are both underqualified to define the Midwest, better leave that to the people from Montana :)
[07:20] <imbrandon> slytherin: i woudl say so and subscribe the ubuntu-powerpc team ( not assign )
[07:20] <LaserJock> slangasek: darn tootin'
[07:20] <slytherin> imbrandon: ok
[07:20] <slangasek> dholbach: heh, I expect cjwatson's knowledge of German geography handily exceeds mine
[07:21] <slytherin> imbrandon: any idea why openoffice.org is not on PPC Alternate CD?
[07:21] <LaserJock> ok, off to be for reals
[07:21] <TheMuso> slytherin: For gutsy?
[07:21]  * LaserJock out
[07:21] <dholbach> slangasek: still... surprising, somehow I wouldn't expect anybody but germans and french germans (like seb128) to know
[07:21] <slytherin> TheMuso: yes
[07:21] <TheMuso> interesting.
[07:21] <TheMuso> I dunno why.
[07:21] <imbrandon> slytherin: no idea that it wasent
[07:22] <imbrandon> personaly my ppc is cli only ( the one that dosent run OSX )
[07:22] <TheMuso> My mini is currently cli, due to bad ATI driver breakage.
[07:22] <TheMuso> Or OS X.
[07:22] <slytherin> TheMuso: imbrandon: only openoffice.org-core and -human are there. there is no calc, writer, impress
[07:22] <slytherin> Check http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/metapackages/ubuntu-desktop
[07:22] <imbrandon> slytherin: might have been a oversize issue, but i couldent see that as going first
[07:22] <TheMuso> slytherin: COuld have been build/dependency issues.
[07:23] <slytherin> oversize might not be an issue, the CD is only 630 MB if I remember correctly
[07:23] <imbrandon> if it was a LTS i would say we could fix it for a .1 but likely since its a ( low ) community only port it will probably have to wait for hardy
[07:24] <imbrandon> but i would still be interested in seeing why it happend
[07:24] <slytherin> I don't mind waiting for hardy. as of now gutsy is running fine on my ibook except there is no sound and no openoffice
[07:24] <imbrandon> speaking of , anyone know if there is going to be a pre-hardy 6.06.2 ? ( i doubt it just asking )
[07:26] <TheMuso> Dunno.
 nixternal: I wonder what would happen if I "fixed" that wikipedia map / <nixternal> LaserJock: you would have a bunch of 13 year olds with PhD's coming after you
[07:26] <nenolod> haha yes
[07:26] <nenolod> :D
[07:26] <slytherin> I will just file bug about openoffice.org
[07:27] <nixternal> hehe, someone remembers that story :)
[07:27] <TheMuso> slytherin: What was the ppc specific bg you were going to file?
[07:28] <slytherin> TheMuso: one is related to openoffice.org being absent and another is that there is no sound. previous laptop testing reports indicate that my ibook should have sound. looks like alsa is not set properly and can not detect sound card or create a device for it.
[07:28] <imbrandon> ugh is there an easy way to search ITP/RFP bugs ?
[07:28] <imbrandon> ( debian )
[07:29] <nenolod> imbrandon, they are all packaged in wnpp
[07:29] <nenolod> ;p
[07:29] <TheMuso> slytherin: Oh ok. Well both those are somewhat out of my field of expertise. :)
[07:29] <TheMuso> Particularly the sound one.
[07:30] <slytherin> TheMuso: I will not file the sound one immediately because I don't have internet at home as of now. so I won't be able to provide enough information on that.
[07:32] <TheMuso> slytherin: ok
[07:33] <slytherin> TheMuso: have you decided anything about forming new team / reviving old team of ppc?
[07:33] <TheMuso> slytherin: No, as you are the only person who's contacted me so far.
[07:33] <slytherin> he he
[07:34] <imbrandon> and me, but i dont count :)
[07:34] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Of course you do.
[08:12] <slytherin> is there any java implementatio0n on PPC?
[08:14] <imbrandon> blackdown ( and iirc others )
[08:14] <slytherin> what about gcj/gij?
[08:14] <imbrandon> sure
[08:15] <slangasek> yes, but that's not really a java implementation, we just pretended it was in order to get Sun to release icedtea ;)
[08:15] <imbrandon> :)
[08:15] <slytherin> slangasek: icedtea is not available for ppc. and apart from that not all of the icedtea is from sun
[08:16] <slytherin> Ok. I thought openoffice.org-base was culprit due to it's dependency on some java. but seeing that gcj/gij is available I don't think that should be a dependency problem in including OOo in PPC cd
[08:17] <imbrandon> is it installable after the initial install
[08:17] <imbrandon> ( oo.o )
[08:17] <slytherin> imbrandon: I don't have net connection at home. :-( So now I am taking individual packages from office. It is going to be pain.
[08:18] <imbrandon> i say we port the GEOS Desktop from the C64 and use BASIC to make an office suite :)
[08:19] <slytherin> LOL
[08:27] <dholbach> superm1: ipod-convenience can be uploaded (as a MOTU you need one ACK only)
[08:27] <nenolod> imbrandon, best plan evar.
[08:27] <superm1> dholbach, yeah i uploaded it right after imbrandon acked it
[08:27] <dholbach> rock on
[08:27]  * dholbach archives
[08:28] <imbrandon> StevenK: where does "bts" look for my email address and smtp server, it just says from the "devscripts configuration" , i wasent aware devscripts had any configuration
[08:28] <dholbach> I added a "NEW packages section" to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/ReportingPage
[08:29] <jussi01> could someone tell me how to get svn integration with eclipse?
[08:31] <superm1> dholbach, okay i added my other NEW ones that i remember offhand
[08:32] <dholbach> superm1: super! :)
[08:32] <dholbach> the last motu team report looked great
[08:32] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/November2007
[08:34] <superm1> whoops it looks like some of the ones i am remembering were on that report, i'll fix that in a moment
[08:35] <dholbach> superm1: I copied names from the "REVU: ..." mails on ubuntu-motu@
[08:35] <dholbach> that was the only thing I could trac
[08:35] <dholbach> k
[08:35] <dholbach> I think that'S going to be interesting to users reading about what's going on in MOTU land
[08:35] <\sh> moins
[08:35] <dholbach> so feel free to add stuff to MOTU/ReportingPage
[08:54] <proppy> hi
[08:59] <superm1> how do you make the same man page be used for multiple binaries?
[08:59] <superm1> other then fancy symbolic linking
[08:59] <soren> Why do you find symlinks inappropriate?
[09:00] <superm1> well i guess they would be appropriate, then?
[09:00] <superm1> i wasn't sure what the "proper" solution was
[09:01] <persia> superm1: symlinks are preferred, but also list all the binaries in the manpage.
[09:01] <soren> $ find /usr/share/man -type l | wc -l
[09:01] <soren> 467
[09:01] <superm1> okay :)
[09:01] <soren> It looks pretty common.
[09:02] <persia> superm1: Take a look at the dpkg package.  It does that, and it typically a good example of how dpkg likes things to be done.
[09:02] <persia> s/it typ/is typ/
[09:02] <superm1> okay will do
[09:04]  * dholbach hugs persia
[09:04] <persia> dholbach: What did I do now?
[09:04] <dholbach> persia: hehe... you make it sound like I punished you :-)
[09:05] <dholbach> but no... you added the note to the merging page
[09:05] <dholbach> that was a great idea
[09:05] <persia> dholbach: Ah, that.  Yes: there needs to be good docs, as you say (and the current text needs work to make it appropriate for those who can upload themselves), but we also need to not push them to new people.  It seemed like the best balance.
[09:06] <dholbach> yeah
[09:06] <persia> I'm wondering if we oughtn't do that for a few more of the instructions pages, and encourage some of those willing to help with documentation instructions to subscribe.
[09:06] <dholbach> let's see how it works out in this case
[09:07] <persia> Is it possible to create a category for "MOTU Q&A" (or whatever), and then have interested parties subscribe to all pages in the category?
[09:07] <persia> Sure: I'm not in a rush, more I'd like to understand the nature of MoinMoin before proposing something if it does work.
[09:07] <dholbach> hm, with a particular namespace it'd work definitely
[09:08]  * proppy hugs dholbach persia
[09:08] <dholbach> :-)
[09:08]  * dholbach hugs proppy back
[09:09] <persia> hey proppy
[09:20] <huats> hello everyone
[09:46] <s1024kb> \sh: hello
[09:47] <s1024kb> \sh: had been waiting for you for quite a while on jabber...
[09:55] <superm1> alright guys, i've got another package up on revu if another MOTU would like to take a glance: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=nuvexport
[09:56] <TheMuso> superm1: I'm on it.
[09:56] <imbrandon> i would but i'm off to sleep
[09:56] <superm1> thanks TheMuso
[09:56] <imbrandon> gnight all , eat lots of turkey today
[09:56] <Ng> what's the process for getting thing in -backports? the xine 1.1.8 backport in gutsy makes libxine-xvdr uninstallable if one uses -backports
[09:56] <Ng> so i guess we need to rebuild against the new xine
[09:57] <superm1> Ng, file a bug against the gutsy-backports project
[09:57] <dholbach> Ng: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
[09:57] <superm1> and if you can, do a test build and attach the build log
[09:57] <superm1> or use dholbach's handy URL :)
[09:57] <dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports#head-37a793d5ee480081f1c9f19e07fcdcdae5e6a9ed
[09:57] <Ng> ta
[09:57] <dholbach> why isn't this on the ubuntu wiki? GRRR
[09:57] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackportRequestProcess is a two-step redirect now
[10:01] <dholbach> sorry for being a wiki fascist, that seems to have come with the last things I've worked on :)
[10:02] <Ng> hehe
[10:02] <proppy> dholbach: sad that you can't really bzr revert the wiki page :)
[10:02] <proppy> maybe you should give http://ikiwiki.info/ a try
[10:03] <proppy> and add bzr support to it :)
[10:03] <dholbach> I'm not likely to transfer all of our Moin wiki to ikiwiki :)
[10:03] <dholbach> I have other fish to fry :)
[10:09] <s1024kb> maiatoday: hey girl, have been waiting for you. how's your progress?
[10:09] <maiatoday> not too fast I'm afraid
[10:09] <TheMuso> superm1: In the files, I see author as xris. Is that a substitution or something, or the nickname of the author?
[10:10] <superm1> TheMuso, that is his nickname
[10:10] <TheMuso> Right.
[10:10] <TheMuso> The only concern I have is that that is not made clear, so far as I have yet found.
[10:11] <s1024kb> maiatoday: me too, actually i guess it's the same situation of we beginners. but never mind, we will make it sooner or later.
[10:11] <superm1> TheMuso, i'll add a little (xris) to debian/copyright to clarify that
[10:11] <superm1> next to his name
[10:11] <TheMuso> superm1: Ok, I think that would be prudent.
[10:12] <s1024kb> maiatoday: see, me teacher comes in.
[10:12] <norsetto> <insert your preferred greeting here>
[10:12] <s1024kb> norsetto: hello my teacher.
[10:12] <norsetto> s1024kb: hi there, I've seen your email
[10:13] <norsetto> s1024kb: did you clarify it already?
[10:13] <s1024kb> norsetto: yes, and today you will have one more student - my friend maia. :)
[10:13] <maiatoday> hi norsetto
[10:13] <s1024kb> norsetto: not yet, still waiting for \sh...
[10:13] <norsetto> hello maiatoday, nice to meet you
[10:13] <luisbg_> hello s1024kb =)
[10:14] <norsetto> s1024kb: well, no need to talk with \sh, that bug is an old bug for an old merge
[10:14] <s1024kb> luisbg_:hello, so happy that everyone is here...
[10:14] <s1024kb> norsetto: so i should report a new one?
[10:14] <luisbg_> hey superm1, how is all?
[10:14] <superm1> luisbg, pretty good
[10:14] <maiatoday> :) I read some of the links s1024kb forwarded to me, I have installed all tools (i think) now I have to try to get my head around pbuilder
[10:14] <superm1> but i should have been in bed hours ago
[10:14] <superm1> :)
[10:14] <norsetto> s1024kb: yes, next time please check the status; do you see the status on that bug?
[10:15] <TheMuso> superm1: I was gonna say, you're up late.
[10:15] <norsetto> maiatoday: good
[10:15] <s1024kb> norsetto: yes...
[10:15] <maiatoday> then when I've done that perhaps a bit of mentoring for my first task:)
[10:15] <superm1> TheMuso, yeah i got caught up on packaging this while waiting for a transcode to finish and see how well it worked
[10:15] <TheMuso> superm1: Technically, it all looks fine.
[10:16] <s1024kb> maiatoday: we share our progress, so i am sure we will make it together.
[10:16] <norsetto> maiatoday: I think the best for you would be to coordinate as much as you can with s1024kb
[10:16] <superm1> TheMuso, okay good to go then?
[10:16] <s1024kb> norsetto: thanks my teacher, that's why i bring her here, :)
[10:16] <TheMuso> superm1: Yeah, looks good.
[10:16] <norsetto> maiatoday: in the west we say that "two heads think better than one" ;-)
[10:16] <luisbg_> even TheMuso is here!
[10:16] <luisbg_> wow!!
[10:16] <superm1> okay thanks, i'll push and hit the hay
[10:18] <s1024kb> norsetto: yes, i had said the same in my mail to maia, haha. :)
[10:18] <s1024kb> norsetto: by the way my teacher, should i report a new bug of yappy now?
[10:18] <norsetto> s1024kb: ok, please try to help maiatoday, by helping her you will also help yourself
[10:19] <norsetto> s1024kb: is the merge done? are you happy with it? If so, yes, you should file the bug now
[10:19] <s1024kb> norsetto: of course i will my teacher, hey, she is much better than me in programming, i am sure.
[10:20] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay... wait a moment please. i do it now.
[10:20] <s1024kb> maiatoday: feel free to ask our nice teacher. :)
[10:21] <proppy> hi norsetto
[10:21] <norsetto> heya proppy
[10:21] <proppy> norsetto: by helping her you will also help yourself
[10:21] <proppy> I like you style
[10:22] <proppy> sound like yoda or something
[10:22] <norsetto> proppy: on which flower are you jumping today, oh restless bee?
[10:23] <proppy> norsetto: cairo swf backend :)
[10:23] <proppy> norsetto: #gnash stuff
[10:24] <proppy> norsetto: + submitting patch to mercurial
[10:24] <proppy> hope there will be some time for motu stuff as well
[10:24] <proppy> still waiting for juce upstream to react to my forum post
[10:25] <proppy> an alternative would be to generate the .so file in the rule file, instead of trying to get the Makefile patched
[10:25] <norsetto> proppy: why don't you look for some python bugs to fix in the meantime?
[10:26] <proppy> norsetto: nice advice, let me look if there is some on TODO wiki page
[10:26] <norsetto> proppy: well, if there isn't, you can do a search yourself
[10:26] <s1024kb> maiatoday: do you have a jabber account?
[10:28] <proppy> norsetto: yep let me take a look
[10:30] <proppy> bug #115589
[10:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115589 in inkscape "inkscape pyxml missing python-xml " [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/115589
[10:30] <proppy> bug #156047
[10:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156047
[10:32] <norsetto> is there anyone in ubuntu who does ruby specific packaging?
[10:33]  * proppy resists
[10:33] <proppy> you retless honey pot
[10:34] <norsetto> proppy: beg your pardon?
[10:35] <proppy> I know a DD who do some ruby packaging thing
[10:35] <proppy> but my guess is that he package his stuff with ruby packaging system (gem)
[10:35] <proppy> instead of packaging them for debian
[10:36] <norsetto> proppy: right, I hear there are some "discussions" going on between the debian and ruby communities
[10:37] <proppy> norsetto: hope this will output a nice ruby policy
[10:37] <proppy> norsetto: I heard everything is *simple* with ruby ahah
[10:38] <s1024kb> norsetto: #164477, could be a lot of problems i guess...
[10:41] <norsetto> bug 164477
[10:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 164477 in yappy "Please merge yappy 1.8-3 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164477
[10:43] <norsetto> s1024kb: looks good, but you should change this: LP: #134552 to LP: #164477 so that it refers to your bug
[10:46] <s1024kb> norsetto: haha, okay, done. :)
[10:46] <norsetto> s1024kb: ok, now set the staus to confirmed and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (they will check if the patch is good and upload it eventually)
[10:47] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay, done. :)
[10:48] <\sh> s1024kb, hi...sorry...real work takes my time in the  moment :(
[10:48] <norsetto> s1024kb: ok, but you should also change the debdiff, not just the description
[10:49] <s1024kb> \sh: no problem, i am busy like a bee too today with my terrible work.
[10:50] <proppy> bee bee bee
[10:50] <s1024kb> maiatoday: oh girl, what's wrong with your connection? :)
[10:51] <s1024kb> norsetto: but how? i edit my debdiff file on my harddisk and uploaded it again?
[10:51] <maiatoday> bleargh, adsl + local teleco + rain = problems
[10:52] <s1024kb> maiatoday: smile, girl, i will write a report of my study for you tonight. you will not miss anything i had learned here.
[10:52] <norsetto> s1024kb: yes, in this case you can edit your debdiff and upload it again, but usually you should change your source file and redo the debdiff (especially when you add or remove lines)
[10:54] <norsetto> s1024kb: do you see the menu on the left of the bug report? Its called bug attachments, with that you can remove your old debdiff and add the new one
[10:56] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay...
[11:00]  * norsetto feeds the cats
[11:05] <s1024kb> norsetto: :) i like cats too.
[11:06] <norsetto> yeah, they are littly furry bastards
[11:07] <norsetto> s1024kb: let me know when you are finished with that (don't forget to subscribe the sponsors)
[11:10] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay my teacher, got it all done. :)
[11:11] <s1024kb> norsetto: subscribe the sponsors?
[11:12] <norsetto> s1024kb: I said  s1024kb: ok, now set the staus to confirmed and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (they will check if the patch is good and upload it eventually)
[11:12] <s1024kb> norsetto: had changed the status already. does it mean the work is finished?
[11:13] <norsetto> s1024kb: subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (they will check if the patch is good and upload it eventually)
[11:14] <s1024kb> norsetto: sorry, what shall i do now then?
[11:15] <norsetto> s1024kb: do you see the menu on the left, called "subscribe someone else" ?
[11:16] <s1024kb> norsetto: yes
[11:16] <s1024kb> norsetto: opened the page already
[11:18] <s1024kb> norsetto: shall i fill in something?
[11:19] <norsetto> s1024kb: insert ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[11:20] <s1024kb> norsetto: and click "add"?
[11:21] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay. done.
[11:24] <norsetto> s1024kb: this link explains what are the sponsors and what they can do for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue
[11:25] <s1024kb> norsetto: okay. :)
[11:26] <norsetto> s1024kb: you will be notified by bugmail about the progress of your merge. If a sponsor has questions please act on them
[11:27] <s1024kb> norsetto:okay. will read it at home, gotta run now, thank you very much for your mentoring today. :)  and say thank you for my friend maia to you. :)
[11:27] <norsetto> s1024kb: right, see you soon
[11:27] <maiatoday> bye s1024kb
[11:29] <s1024kb> norsetto: see you my teacher.
[11:29] <s1024kb> maiatoday: hey, dear, continue your happy time here. :) bye.
[12:09] <proppy> norsetto: bug #156047, submitted to debian
[12:09] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156047
[12:09] <proppy> waiting for bts number for replying with a debdiff
[12:10] <proppy> ahah dholbach you're really a wiki freak :)
[12:12] <proppy> just seen you post on -discuss
[12:12] <proppy> btw importing you moin wiki into ikiwiki+git should be ikiwiki compiler job
[12:12] <proppy> not yours :)
[12:14] <norsetto> proppy: ok, thanks for that
[12:15] <proppy> linking the bug to debian bts
[12:15]  * Hobbsee waves
[12:16]  * proppy yo
[12:16]  * norsetto eats
[12:17] <proppy> are comments editable ?
[12:17] <proppy> (on lp)
[12:20]  * Hobbsee read that as "are comments edible", and thinks proppy is strange!
[12:20]  * Hobbsee waves to EtienneG
[12:20] <EtienneG> hello!
[12:21]  * proppy Hobbsee thinks there is a missunderstood
[12:21] <proppy> s/Hobbsee//
[12:21] <proppy> I like the sound of that :)
[12:24]  * norsetto wonders if missunderstood is a pun
[12:27] <proppy> pun ?
[12:29] <proppy> damn the debian maintainer of python-biopython is responsive :)
[12:29] <proppy> > Should it be moved into Recommends to solve this issue ?  Right, I'll fix that with the next upload.
[12:32] <norsetto> proppy: pun=jeux de mots
[12:33] <proppy> norsetto: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=452379
[12:33] <ubotu> Debian bug 452379 in python-biopython "python-biopython: import Bio.PDB failed on sid" [Normal,Open]
[12:33] <proppy> on the lp part I've assigned the bug to myself
[12:33] <proppy> and tag it as in progress
[12:33] <deadwill> mornin'
[12:42] <proppy> norsetto: is there anothing to do on #156047 ?
[13:09] <effie_jayx> hello motu
[13:09]  * effie_jayx gets to motu learning
[13:10]  * Hobbsee waves
[13:13] <huats> hey effie_jayx
[13:14] <huats> effie_jayx: I am following your progression with much interest since I am in the same position than you :D
[13:15] <\sh> grmpf
[13:15] <\sh> wireshark is a pita
[13:15] <\sh> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=452381
[13:15] <ubotu> Debian bug 452381 in wireshark "multiple security issues" [Grave,Open]
[13:17] <norsetto> bug 156047
[13:17] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156047
[13:18] <norsetto> proppy: for that bug, you should nominate it for gutsy and hardy. For hardy it will be solved by syncing next issue with debian, for gutsy you should ask for an sru
[13:20] <proppy> how do I do that ?
[13:20] <effie_jayx> huats,  cool :D
[13:20] <proppy> norsetto:
[13:21] <norsetto> proppy: what, the sru?
[13:21] <proppy> norsetto: I should separate bug report for hardy  and gutsy ?
[13:21] <persia> Erm.  It needs to be in hardy before an SRU happens.  A sync would be good, but it may be worth a quick patch to support the SRU, followed by a sync request.
[13:21] <proppy> "you should nominate it for gutsy and hardy"
[13:21] <norsetto> proppy: the menu on the left "nominate for release"
[13:21] <proppy> ok
[13:22] <proppy>        Nominated       for       Gutsy       by       Johan Euphrosine                                                                 Nominated       for       Hardy       by       Johan Euphrosine
[13:22] <proppy> like that ?
[13:25] <norsetto> proppy: yes
[13:26] <huats> hello the famous norsetto
[13:26] <proppy> norsetto: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-med?op=comp&compare%5B%5D=%2Ftrunk%2Fpackages%2Fpython-biopython%2Ftrunk%2Fdebian@844&compare%5B%5D=%2Ftrunk%2Fpackages%2Fpython-biopython%2Ftrunk%2Fdebian@845
[13:27] <proppy> the debian DD updated the svn
[13:27] <proppy> persia: so I shall request a sync to hard once it's uploaded to debian
[13:27] <proppy> persia: and then ask for an SRU ?
[13:27] <norsetto> proppy: ok, make a patch with that and apply it to hardy
[13:28] <proppy> norsetto: instead of waiting for the sync ?
[13:28] <persia> proppy: If it's critical enough for an SRU, please don't wait on Debian, as users are experiencing this problem now.
[13:28] <persia> proppy: This is a special exception, because it's important to do for a released version: normally you'd wait for Debian.
[13:28] <norsetto> proppy: a sync only god knows when we will be able to do, and its desiderable to have it fixed in the development release when asking for the sru
[13:29] <persia> Not desireable, required.
[13:30] <proppy> :)
[13:31] <proppy> so -2 ubuntu1 ?
[13:32] <norsetto> persia: untrue
[13:37] <proppy> debdiff uploaded to bug #156047
[13:37] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156047
[13:39] <norsetto> proppy: when you have a patch to upload, you should subscribe the universe-sponsors
[13:39] <norsetto> proppy: I think you did it before, right?
[13:41] <proppy> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-biopython/+bug/156047
[13:41] <proppy> then is the SRU ?
[13:41] <proppy> I shall wait for the change to be uploaded in hardy right ?
[13:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,In progress]
[13:41] <norsetto> proppy: you should also add the change of maintainer in the changelog
[13:42] <norsetto> proppy: yes, but prepare it beforehand
[13:43] <norsetto> proppy: its your first SRU?
[13:43] <norsetto> heya huats, sorry, just seen your message :-)
[13:45] <huats> norsetto: too busy cooking a pizza I assume :)
[13:45] <proppy> ok
[13:45] <proppy>   * debian/control: Change Maintainer/XSBC-Original-Maintainer field. is ok ?
[13:46] <norsetto> huats: busy digesting my pain-au-chocolat
[13:46] <proppy> norsetto: yep
[13:46] <huats> norsetto: lucky you :) but in my place (south of france, it is called "chocolatine")
[13:47] <norsetto> proppy: I have seen it written in so many ways :-) Yours is as good as any
[13:47] <proppy> norsetto: I just grab it from a google search :)
[13:49] <proppy> http://paste.ubuntu.com/2151/ is ok ?
[13:52] <frenchy> Hi all, do we still review when it's not review day anymore?
[13:52] <norsetto> huats, proppy: my wife was in paris yesterday ... she was on the street going back to the hotel when she found herself in between the police and the strikers
[13:53] <persia> frenchy: Yes, but not as much.  You can ask, but there's no promise that someone will look.
[13:54] <proppy> norsetto: yep it's pretty stricky atmm
[13:54] <proppy> norsetto: all my japanese course are cancelled :(
[13:55] <norsetto> proppy: well, you can always talk with persia
[13:55] <persia> Je ne parle pas Japonais
[13:56] <proppy> persia: do you know talk-active japanese radio who are streamed online ?
[13:57] <persia> proppy: Not offhand, no.
[13:57] <proppy> bug #156047 updated
[13:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156047
[13:57] <huats> norsetto: I don't even have heard of a demonstration in France yesterday :)
[13:57] <proppy> persia: thanks anyway
[13:57] <huats> same as usual :)
[13:58] <norsetto> huats: no surprise, its an everyday occurence nowadays
[13:58] <proppy> I will listen to some podcast I've downloaded from zipfm :)
[14:03] <frenchy> persia: I think that I've completed the 15 issues that you listed (thanks for those).  Ready for my next list ...
[14:03] <frenchy> Greetings MOTUs and MOTUettes, I ask you kindly to please review my newly uploaded version of Me TV.  I'm still awaiting my first advocate.  See http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=me-tv
[14:04] <persia> frenchy: I've a list of things to get done in the next 22 hours, but I'll take a quick look if I get a free moment.  Did you remember to run lintian and linda against your binary changes, and address those issues as well?
[14:05] <norsetto> proppy: have you subscribed your bug to the u-u-s?
[14:06] <pkern> topic
[14:06] <frenchy> persia: Thanks, I will appreciate whatever time you can spare.  I did run lintian/linda against the source dsc.  Was I supposed to do it against the binary, was I?
[14:06] <pkern> Bloody keyboard.
[14:06] <proppy> nop
[14:06] <pkern> frenchy: Against the changes which results from a build.
[14:06] <proppy> I'm quite useless :)
[14:06] <persia> frenchy: When you build, you'll get a file ending in $arch.changes, and you'll want to run lintian and linda against that.
[14:07] <proppy> done
[14:07] <proppy> Ubuntu Sponsors for universe team has been subscribed to this bug.
[14:08] <norsetto> proppy: ok, then mark hardy as confirmed and assign it to nobody, and mark gutsy as in progress and assign it to you ....
[14:09] <frenchy> persia: linda was all good. lintian: bad-ubuntu-distribution-in-changes-file hardy.  I assume that this is because I'm on Gutsy.
[14:09] <persia> frenchy: You'll want backported lintian and linda: there are quite a few changes, and if you're not getting errors, your packages will not be entirely suitable.
[14:10] <frenchy> Oh ...  $arch.changes ... so you do mean a binary build.  I will do that, sorry.
[14:10] <persia> frenchy: The easy way to do this is to install them in your hardy chroot.  The second easiest is to enable the -backports repository, install the packages, and disable the -backports repository.  The hardest way is to download the hardy sources compile them, and install them.
[14:12] <proppy> norsetto: done
[14:14] <frenchy> persia: I don't have a hardy chroot.  So I'll go and research that.
[14:14] <persia> frenchy: How are you building your package?
[14:15] <norsetto> persia, frenchy: I remember that I just installed the lintian deb from hardy, there wasn't any deps issue
[14:16] <persia> norsetto: The backport is indeed trivial, and it should work, but I at least try to avoid running anything not compiled against my current system (or something substantially similar).
[14:17] <norsetto> persia: should do the same for linda actually, I have backports enabled but I don't think that was backported
[14:17] <persia> Wasn't it?  Hmm..  Maybe I forgot to file the bug: checking now, and filing if it's missing.
[14:18] <frenchy> persia: I built it in gutsy.
[14:18] <frenchy> persia: Yes, I'm naughty.
[14:19] <norsetto> persia: well, I guess its not worth it, didn't check the changelog but hardy is 0.3.26ubuntu2 and gutsy 0.3.26ubuntu1
[14:19] <persia> frenchy: naughty?  Building it in gutsy seems the best way to do it.
[14:19] <persia> norsetto: Not really: I only added the differences for the new menu policy :)
[14:20] <norsetto> persia: oh, right
[14:20] <frenchy> persia: Yes, but it really needs to be done in a chrooted environment to stop: " bad-ubuntu-distribution-in-changes-file hardy", right?
[14:21] <persia> The only reason to backport is to make lintian and linda not argue about how to specify the menu file, but it won't hurt much, and the backport is already in place on REVU.
[14:21] <persia> frenchy: The hardy version of lintian shouldn't generate that issue, even if built on gutsy.
[14:22] <pkern> Hm... "Debootstrap warning: colund't download package groff-base" in today's d-i daily...
[14:22] <pkern> *cough*
[14:22] <pkern> I need coffee.
[14:23] <frenchy> persia: Thanks, so do I use pbuilder to make a mini-hardy or do I use something else?  Just a quick pointer, I'll do the rest.
[14:23] <persia> frenchy: I like sbuild, but pbuilder also works.
[14:23] <persia> !sbuild
[14:23] <ubotu> sbuild is a system to easily build packages in a clean schroot environment.  To get started with SBuild, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[14:23] <persia> !pbuilder
[14:23] <ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[14:24] <persia> frenchy: For either, you likely want to install ubuntu-dev-tools, as there are helper scripts for both therein.
[14:26] <norsetto> proppy: if I understand it correctly, the application works, its just importing the Bio.PDB that doesn't ?
[14:27] <proppy> yep
[14:27] <proppy> norsetto: yep
[14:27] <norsetto> proppy: hmmm, I wonder if this is worth an sru then
[14:28] <frenchy> persia: Thanks for your help.
[14:29] <persia> frenchy: Thanks for taking the trouble to package your application for Ubuntu
[14:29] <proppy> dunno if Bio.PDB is at the core of the package functionnality
[14:30] <norsetto> proppy: yes, is it?
[14:30] <proppy> dunno, anyone as ever tryed python-biopython ? or a package which depends on it ?
[14:30] <proppy> warp10 was a med guy yes ?
[14:30] <frenchy> persia: If I work hard enough I'm hoping I'll get it into hardy.
[14:30] <norsetto> proppy: yes
[14:30] <proppy> since it's a debian-med stuff maybe he knows :)
[14:32] <norsetto> proppy: computational molecular biology ?
[14:35] <proppy> norsetto: http://www.biopython.org/DIST/docs/api/public/Bio.PDB-module.html
[14:37] <norsetto> proppy: hmmmm, and what would that tell me?
[14:39] <proppy> norsetto: what is biopdb about :)
[14:40] <norsetto> proppy: ah ... now I'm much more advanced
[14:40] <proppy> norsetto: I can try to hook the DD or the upstream about that
[14:41] <proppy> or maybe the bug reporter
[14:41] <norsetto> proppy: seriously, is this a severe regression? What functionality loss are we talking about here? Try prodding the user/debian/upstream if you don't know yourself
[14:44] <mok0> proppy: what's the problem with bio.pdb?
[14:45] <mok0> I'm familiar with that module
[14:46] <proppy> mok0: Bio.PDB is not importable
[14:46] <proppy> see https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/python-biopython/+bug/156047
[14:46] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156047 in python-biopython "import Bio.PDB of python-biopython at gutsy" [Undecided,In progress]
[14:46]  * mok0 looks
[14:47] <mok0> Ah. It depends on Numerical Python...
[14:48] <mok0> Looks like there's already a patch...
[14:48] <proppy> yep
[14:48] <proppy> I've just crafted it
[14:48] <proppy> reported it to the DD
[14:48] <mok0> Good work
[14:48] <proppy> waiting for the hardy upload
[14:48] <mok0> Johan == proppy?
[14:49] <proppy> what I want to know, if is there not having Bio.PDB availabe
[14:49] <proppy> is a big regression from python-biopython user point of view
[14:49] <proppy> for knowing if I should request an SRU or not
[14:49] <proppy> mok0: yep
[14:49] <mok0> Uhm, that depends
[14:50] <mok0> If you want to do anything with structural bioinformatics, you need it.
[14:50] <mok0> if you only want to look at sequences, you don't
[14:50] <mok0> I'd say, it should be present in the Ubuntu package!
[14:50] <mok0> _really_
[14:51] <norsetto> mok0: I have never seen an user saying something should not be present _really_
[14:52] <mok0> ;-)
[14:52] <persia> I've seen that, but it was usually something extra that broke something :)
[14:52] <mok0> Whatever, I'd say, go for an SRU
[14:53] <proppy> mok0: thanks for the input !
[14:54] <mok0> I have to run, see you later!
[14:54] <norsetto> proppy: well, you have to defend the case so make sure you have enough arguments
[14:54] <DktrKranz> are you debating on biopython?
[14:55] <norsetto> DktrKranz: yes, you are looking at it right now?
[14:55] <DktrKranz> I had a look right now
[14:55] <DktrKranz> I haven't tried to reproduce the bug, though
[14:56] <DktrKranz> mh... does a Recommends solve that problem?
[14:57] <norsetto> DktrKranz: If I understand it correctly most package managers (apt included now) automaticall install recommends
[14:57] <proppy> That's what I thought either
[14:58] <DktrKranz> norsetto: apt? really?
[14:58] <proppy> DktrKranz: echo "import Bio.PDB" | python
[14:58] <proppy> to reproduce it
[14:58] <norsetto> DktrKranz: yes, I'm not 100% sure if it is already implemented in gutsy though
[14:59] <DktrKranz> That's the question we need to answer
[14:59] <DktrKranz> If Gutsy does not install Recommends by default (IIRC, not), that SRU seems incomplete to me
[14:59] <norsetto> DktrKranz: well, not really, all the other package managers do
[14:59]  * DktrKranz is speaking without testing the package...
[15:00] <DktrKranz> norsetto: so Synaptic/Adept do?
[15:00] <proppy> does synaptic do ?
[15:00] <Hobbsee> synaptic does not by default
[15:00] <Hobbsee> adept does not
[15:00] <norsetto> Hobbsee: ah!
[15:01] <norsetto> Hobbsee: you sure about that? I never use those
[15:01] <DktrKranz> me too...
[15:01] <proppy> s/Hobbsee/Awesome/
[15:02] <Hobbsee> norsetto: yeah
[15:02] <norsetto> well, that does it than I guess
[15:02] <DktrKranz> so, using Recommends is not a good thing
[15:02] <norsetto> DktrKranz: not for an sru anyhow
[15:03] <proppy> Hobbsee: even in hardy ?
[15:03] <Hobbsee> proppy: you asked about gutsy, not hardy.
[15:03] <Hobbsee> hardy they plan to change it, i think
[15:04] <DktrKranz> Maybe we can debate if it is enough for Hardy, but for a Gutsy SRU it is not advisable
[15:06] <proppy> DktrKranz: someone proprosed a debdiff that add python-numeric-ext as a Depends
[15:06] <proppy> maybe we can use it for the SRU ?
[15:06] <proppy> Hobbsee: thaaaanks
[15:07] <DktrKranz> Depending on python-numeric-ext would solve the problem
[15:08] <DktrKranz> unless there's a way to bypass LinearAlgebra import
[15:09] <norsetto> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2007/08/msg00000.html
[15:10] <DktrKranz> norsetto: thanks
[15:11] <lamont> dear acl2.  Please don't use the bashism 'time' in your build.  kthxbye
[15:11] <lamont> someone could fix that trivially
[15:13] <norsetto> proppy: to tell you the truth, since the work-around is pretty trivial (manual installation) I don't think this is worth an sru anyhow
[15:14] <norsetto> proppy: now, for hardy, why not, since we don't know if the fix in the cvs will be on time for release
[15:16] <proppy> I guess it will, DD are not usually afraid of uploading to unstable right ?
[15:17] <norsetto> proppy: I guess too, but, why not? The downside is that this will need manual syncing, but most probably it will need anyhow since it will be after debian import freeze
[15:17] <norsetto> proppy: unless you ask the DD what his plans are?
[15:18] <proppy> norsetto: his plan are to push the fix, with his next upload
[15:18] <norsetto> proppy: yes, but I mean his plan for the next upload....
[15:19] <proppy> I guess he push fixes to his svn, and when he got enought fix to justify a new debian revision
[15:19] <proppy> he uploads
[15:19] <proppy> but I may be wrong
[15:20] <proppy> my bet is that his stuff will get uploaded in less that one month
[15:20] <proppy> is the debian import freeze so close ?
[15:21] <proppy> I just get an answer of the DD
[15:21] <proppy> about how important Bio.PDB is
[15:21] <proppy> Sorry, I'm not sure about that and I don't know how frequently that module is used. However, I would say that it is an important feature.
[15:24] <norsetto> proppy: december 13th is the DIF
[15:25] <norsetto> proppy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[15:25] <proppy> ok
[15:25] <proppy> I will ask him them
[15:31] <proppy> norsetto: dd mailed
[15:31] <proppy> norsetto: bcced you
[15:32] <norsetto> proppy: why don't you subscribe to some of these python packages? If you do you will get mails whenever there are new bugs in LP
[15:33] <proppy> you mean python-biopython ?
[15:34] <norsetto> proppy: I mean some python packages, those that may interest you
[15:34] <norsetto> proppy: you can also check bugs to which https://edge.launchpad.net/~pythonistas are subscribed
[15:35] <proppy> pythonistas is a user ?
[15:35] <proppy> a group
[15:35] <proppy> If I join the team will I get automaticaly subscribed ?
[15:36] <proppy> let's try
[15:36] <ryanakca> Is there a style guide for manpages in Ubuntu?
[15:37] <norsetto> proppy: I don't think it works that way, for instance, I don't get bugmail for bugs to which u-u-s are subscribed even though I'm a member
[15:37] <proppy> norsetto: I'm suscribed to ubuntu-gnomemm
[15:38] <proppy> and I get full of gnome c++ stuff in my mailbox :)
[15:38] <norsetto> proppy: ok, then I just have to thank my IP spamfilter I guess
[15:39] <RainCT> hi
[15:39] <proppy> maybe it depends of the groups :)
[15:39] <proppy> doko: hi, how can I get involved with pythonistas ?
[15:39] <proppy> doko: what are the requirement for team membership ?
[15:40] <norsetto> proppy: you, doko and scottk, the "trio de la muerte"
[15:40] <proppy> ScottK is in it too ?
[15:40] <proppy> niceeeee
[15:42] <doko> proppy: that sounds cool! please could you send ScottK and me a short mail about your previous work regarding to python stuff?
[15:43] <proppy> doko: np
[15:43] <proppy> doko: not necessarly ubuntu python stuff, but python stuff in general ?
[15:44] <doko> proppy: and what you want to do for python in ubuntu
[15:44] <proppy> I guess you two have @ubuntu.com address ?
[15:46] <Hobbsee> norsetto: did you actually test blender, or did you make sure kow did?
[15:47] <proppy> Hobbsee: what about blender (I just launched it)
[15:47] <Hobbsee> oh, so it does launch for you, and not segfault?  that's interesting.
[15:47]  * Hobbsee attmepted to merge it, and found her version still segfaulted.
[15:52] <norsetto> Hobbsee: I just built it
[15:53] <proppy> Hobbsee: which version ?
[15:53] <Hobbsee> 2.4.5 that's in debian
[15:53] <norsetto> proppy: its a new version in hardy, not the one you are using I guess
[15:55] <proppy> norsetto: I guess so
[15:55] <proppy> I'm using 2.44
[15:55] <proppy> and playing with collada import
[15:56] <proppy> I reported a bug regarding compiz and blender yesterday
[15:56] <proppy> be sure to turn compiz off
[16:06] <ryanakca> is requestsync -ns equivalent to requestsync -n -s ?
[16:07] <proppy> doko: ScottK: mail dropped
[16:12] <artm> can i install build dependencies given debian/control ?
[16:14] <proppy> artm: apt-get build-dep packagename
[16:15] <artm> proppy: but apt doesn't know about this package
[16:15] <artm> it isn't from a repository, i downloaded it from somwhere and want to upgrade to a new upstream version
[16:17] <proppy> artm: then all I know is cut past + filtering stuff
[16:18] <proppy> artm: sorry for not being helpfull
[16:18] <proppy> norsetto: dd answered
[16:18] <proppy> norsetto: I usually like to have bugs closed as soon as possible ;-) However, since there was just a new upload I'll wait one or two weeks for other bugreports. But it should be before the 13th.
[16:18] <artm> proppy: no problem
[16:19] <proppy> doko: I got a delivery error on scottk@ubuntu.com
[16:19] <geser> artm: if you have pbuilder installed you can use one of its scripts for that: /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends
[16:20] <artm> geser: thanks!
[16:23] <proppy> doko: I forwarded it to the address listed on his wiki page
[16:24] <norsetto> proppy: isn't blender a 3d modeller?
[16:24] <geser> !info blender
[16:24] <proppy> norsetto: yes it is
[16:24] <ubotu> blender: Very fast and versatile 3D modeller/renderer. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.44-2ubuntu2 (gutsy), package size 7168 kB, installed size 18628 kB
[16:25] <norsetto> why the heck does it require libgsm then!?
[16:25] <proppy> norsetto: it also got a opengl based gui, everyone want to see as a separate library :)
[16:25] <proppy> !info libgsm
[16:25] <ubotu> Package libgsm does not exist in gutsy
[16:25] <proppy> !info libgsm-dev
[16:25] <ubotu> Package libgsm-dev does not exist in gutsy
[16:25] <nxvl> !mom
[16:25] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about mom - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[16:26] <nxvl> !merges
[16:26] <norsetto> !libgsm1
[16:26] <geser> !info libgsm1
[16:26] <norsetto> !!
[16:26] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about merges - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[16:26] <proppy> !info libgsm!-dev
[16:26] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about libgsm1 - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[16:26] <ubotu> libgsm1: Shared libraries for GSM speech compressor. In component main, is optional. Version 1.0.10-13build1 (gutsy), package size 29 kB, installed size 120 kB
[16:26] <proppy> ahaha
[16:26] <norsetto> ok, we killed ubotu
[16:27] <geser> be nice to ubotu, we need it
[16:27]  * norsetto hugs ubotu
[16:28] <proppy> s/ubotu/awesome/
[16:29] <DaveMorris> I'm looking for a 2nd MOTU to ack my package on revu: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=libserial
[16:30] <geser> DaveMorris: why do you need a lintian-override?
[16:32] <DaveMorris> otherwise the libserial-dev package complains that the package name doesn't match the soname of the lib
[16:33] <geser> hmm, ok then
[16:35] <proppy> DaveMorris: serial like rs232 ?
[16:35] <norsetto> geser, davemorris: and why is there a shared library in the -dev package?
[16:35] <geser> norsetto: I'm checking now, pbuilder is already working on the package
[16:36] <norsetto> davemorris: hint: debian/tmp/usr/lib/lib*.so usr/lib in -dev.install .....
[16:36] <DaveMorris> proppy: yes
[16:37] <DaveMorris> norsetto: I believed that was where the .so objects went.  Was I wrong?
[16:38] <norsetto> DaveMorris: yes, the shared library should be in libserial0, and you just need a symlink in libserial-dev
[16:39] <norsetto> davemorris: you also seem to install docs in a funny place
[16:40] <DaveMorris> norsetto: it should be a symblink in the -dev file
[16:40] <norsetto> davemorris: its not a big deal, but is your patch really needed or you can simply add the *.pc in debian/ ?
[16:41] <geser> norsetto: ./usr/lib/libserial.so -> libserial.so.0.0.0 (from the -dev package)
[16:41] <geser> so it looks ok, I still don't understand why lintian would complain
[16:42] <norsetto> geser: yes, that looks good
[16:43] <norsetto> geser: can you check what is in libserial-doc?
[16:45] <geser> norsetto: http://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/45478/
[16:46] <norsetto> davemorris: yes, your libserial-doc needs to be improved
[16:47] <DaveMorris> norsetto: I've been told before to do it as a patch
[16:47] <geser> DaveMorris: have you checked that you still need that override? lintian --show-overrides or lintian -o doesn't complain about the package name
[16:48] <norsetto> DaveMorris: perhaps its a misunderstanding you had
[16:48] <geser> but linda and lintian aren't happy with the manpages: W: libserial-doc: manpage-has-bad-whatis-entry usr/share/man/man3/LibSerial.3.gz (dito for some other man pages)
[16:48] <DaveMorris> ok, I'll double check it quickly, what needs doing with the -doc package?
[16:49] <norsetto> davemorris: first of all, you should install in libserial-doc, not libserial
[16:49] <norsetto> davemorris: I don't think you need to had all man pages again under /usr/share/doc?
[16:50] <norsetto> davemorris: you should not install makefiles
[16:50] <DaveMorris> norsetto: I don't know what you mean with regard to the man pages under /usr/share/doc
[16:51] <norsetto> davemorris: can you check the link geser posted?
[16:51] <norsetto> DaveMorris: do you see all the stuff in /usr/share/doc/libserial/doc/man/man3/ ?
[16:51] <DaveMorris> yep
[16:52] <norsetto> davemorris: is .libs needed in examples?
[16:52] <geser> DaveMorris: why are you installing the man pages twice? once below /usr/share/man and once below /usr/share/doc/libserial/doc/man
[16:53] <geser> DaveMorris: do the html files contain the same documentation as in the man pages?
[16:53] <DaveMorris> geser: would appear to be because of the`lazy' way I've installed them via the libserial-doc.install file
[16:53] <DaveMorris> geser: I beleive so
[16:54] <geser> do we really need it then in two formats?
[16:54] <DaveMorris> I'd say yes, someone like html some people prefer man pages
[16:55] <geser> if no, you could move the man pages to the -dev package (if you use the headers you usually want also the man pages how to use it)
[16:55] <norsetto> davemorris: btw for docs and examples you should use other files than .install (the .docs and .examples files)
[16:57] <DaveMorris> norsetto: you know of a package I could use as an example off the top of your head and I'll look at doing it that way.
[17:00] <norsetto> davemorris: try having a look at liblash, I just saw it yesterday
[17:01] <norsetto> davemorris: but I would not really suggest you follow that way, the package was pretty poor ....
[17:02] <norsetto> davemorris: anyhow, .docs and .examples are not much different than .install, they are used by different debhelper scripts which are tailoerd for docs and examples
[17:03] <DaveMorris> ok
[17:04] <norsetto> DaveMorris: you can check man dh_installdocs and man dh_installexamples for more details (cdbs just hides these from you)
[17:06] <norsetto> DaveMorris: something else you could do is to add a separate line in your Description, to say somthing about the peculiarity of the package
[17:07] <norsetto> DaveMorris: like, "This package contains the development libraries and headers" for libserial-dev
[17:07] <DaveMorris> ok
[17:08] <norsetto> DaveMorris: do you install anything in /usr/bin and /usr/sbin ?
[17:10] <DaveMorris> no I don't
[17:11] <norsetto> DaveMorris: then you don't need those in .dirs
[17:13] <norsetto> DaveMorris: about the patch, my guess is that you were suggested to use a patch since that person thought that there was a need to correct an existing file, but if the file is new, whats the point of having a patch to add it when you can simply add it in debian/? Or is there a pkgconfig file from upstream too?
[17:18] <SWAT> what's the difference between Architecture: i386 / any / all in the control file?
[17:18] <LaserJock> SWAT: well, i386 is for i386
[17:19] <DaveMorris> norsetto: there isn't an upstream one.  They knew it was a new file and said it could be done either way
[17:19] <LaserJock> any means it will be built for all archs but is arch dependent
[17:19] <LaserJock> all means it works on all archs, arch *independent*
[17:19] <geser> SWAT: any is i386, amd64, sparc, lpia, ia64, hppa, ppc, etc.
[17:19] <LaserJock> SWAT: make sense?
[17:20] <SWAT> LaserJock, ah, thanks. I wanted to be sure. I set the architecture manually with 'i386', but using 'any' is better since I won't need to edit the control file if I compile it for another architecture.
[17:21] <LaserJock> right
[17:21] <LaserJock> generally you just specify a specific arch if it won't build on any others
[17:22] <norsetto> DaveMorris: there is a copyright missing in copyright (Copyright (C) 2004 by Manish Pagey)
[17:24] <norsetto> DaveMorris: you don't need to install NEWS (its empty)
[17:25] <DaveMorris> norsetto: any other problems I need to look at
[17:26] <norsetto> davemorris: I would have to build it for some more tests
[17:27] <norsetto> DaveMorris: you may want to add libserial-doc as a suggested dependancy to libserial0?
[17:28] <DaveMorris> ok
[17:28] <DaveMorris> thanks those I'll address them all then put it back on again
[17:29] <norsetto> davemorris: I would also add a provides and conflict in libserial-dev, so that only one dev is installed at any time
[17:29] <SDB804> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[17:29] <SDB804> WRAARRRR!!! I has the Cookies Tooo! WRAARRRR!!!
[17:29] <SDB804> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[17:30] <norsetto> davemorris: like: Conflicts: libserial and Provides: libserial
[17:31] <DaveMorris> thnaks for that
[17:32] <DaveMorris> I've goto go now
[18:09] <cp923> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:09] <cp923> WRAARRRR!!! I has the Cookies Tooo! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:09] <cp923> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:10] <soren> Scary stuff.
[18:10] <LaserJock> man, why in the world would you want to me a Tomato Monster
[18:10] <LaserJock> they're so nasty
[18:10]  * ogra waits for the basil and mozarella monsters to show up
[18:10] <LaserJock> ohhh, yeah
[18:10] <ogra> *mozzarella
[18:20] <H2k`OFF|Mnkr183> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:20] <H2k`OFF|Mnkr183> WRAARRRR!!! I has the Cookies Tooo! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:21] <H2k`OFF|Mnkr183> WRAARRRR!!! I'm the Tomato Monstahhhhh! WRAARRRR!!!
[18:58] <ryanakca> is requestsync failing for anybody else? Every package I try to request with is supposedly "not in debian"...
[18:59] <Kmos> ryanakca: which one are you trying ?
[19:00] <ryanakca> Kmos: bzflag & aptitude.
[19:00] <ryanakca> Kmos: I'm blaming it on rmadison...
[19:01] <xhaker> Hi all :) in the spirit of go merging can someone please tell me how do I get eclipse uploaded?
[19:02] <ryanakca> (requestsync uses 'rmadison -a source -s unstable <package>' to verify if '<package>' is in Debian... rmadison pulls the info from http://qa.debian.org/madison.php ... which doesn't seem to be working very well... should be able to type in the package name and get info...)
[19:02] <ryanakca> xhaker: have you merged it?
[19:02] <xhaker> ryanakca, just did
[19:02] <james_w> ryanakca: you're trying to sync aptitude?
[19:02] <ryanakca> cool, umm, if you're looking for a place to upload it to, REVU is your best bet.
[19:03] <xhaker> i've done some changes on the package before.. but it's the first time doing sync
[19:03] <xhaker> merges*
[19:03] <ryanakca> james_w: yes. It doesn't look like we have any Ubuntu specific changes...
[19:03] <james_w> ryanakca: um, yes it does.
[19:04] <ryanakca> james_w: at least according to Kompare and grab-merges...
[19:04] <james_w> http://patches.ubuntu.com/a/aptitude/extracted/03_branding.dpatch for instance
[19:04] <ryanakca> hmm.. ok, nevermind.
[19:04] <ryanakca> james_w: then... why wasn't it in debian/patches when I ran dpkg-source -x on the ubuntu .dsc? *scratches his head*
[19:04] <Kmos> ryanakca: that's happening to me too
[19:05] <james_w> ryanakca: that I can't tell you I'm afraid.
[19:05] <ryanakca> james_w: herm... odd... really odd.
[19:05]  * ryanakca tries to reproduce it.
[19:05] <james_w> ryanakca: you didn't grab the package from Debian did you?
[19:06] <ryanakca> james_w: no, from DaD
[19:07] <ryanakca> I moved the extracted one that DaD created to aptitude-0.4.8.old, and then ran dpkg-source -x on aptitude_0.4.7-1ubuntu1.dsc & aptitude_0.4.8-1.dsc ...
[19:08] <james_w> well the latter wont have it
[19:09] <ryanakca> james_w: hmm... I probably extracted aptitude_0.4.7-1.dsc instead... herm... *checks history*
[19:09] <ryanakca> james_w:  1049  dpkg-source -x aptitude_0.4.7-1.dsc
[19:09] <ryanakca> ooops!
[19:10] <james_w> ryanakca: no harm done.
[19:41] <propeat> ciao
[19:41] <propeat> see you norsetto_
[19:41] <propeat> see you persia
[19:41] <propeat> thanks mok0 :)
[19:42] <mok0> :)
[19:48] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[19:48] <DktrKranz> Hey TheMuso
[20:08] <norsetto> DktrKranz: you wouldn't have time to sponsor a merge?
[20:18] <DaveMorris> how can you tell cdbs to remove a dir/file?  Say I have dirs b and c inside a.  I install a into a package but then wanna remove dir c.
[20:22] <norsetto> DaveMorris: your would have to do it in a binary-install target
[20:22] <pochu> I'd say in the install rule
[20:22] <DaveMorris> hmm, I was hoping I could do packagename.delete
[20:23] <DaveMorris> as a file and put them in there
[20:23] <norsetto> DaveMorris: but the simple solution is not to install dirs c of course
[20:23] <DaveMorris> yep
[20:24] <DaveMorris> just would of been less lines if I could have a delete
[20:24] <norsetto> davemorris: if its not possible to be selective in your install there is a flag you can use to exclude things (I think -x)
[20:24] <norsetto> DaveMorris: the man page says: -Xitem, --exclude=item
[20:27] <norsetto> DaveMorris: you can pass this to dh_install with the DEB_DH_MAKESHLIBS_ARGS variable
[20:27] <DaveMorris> norsetto:  is it packagename.doc for installing docs?
[20:27] <norsetto> DaveMorris: sorry, the DEB_DH_INSTALL_ARGS
[20:28] <norsetto> DaveMorris: I think is packagename.docs
[20:30] <bmhm> hi
[20:30] <bmhm> what about providing this as a package: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Download
[20:31] <bmhm> It will allow bcm43xx-users to use more advanced wireless modes
[20:32] <norsetto> bmhm: wrong channel I'm afraid, try #ubuntu-devel
[20:36] <imbrandon> anyone else notice there is a non-english post on planet.u.c ? inst that against stated policy on the signup page
[20:36] <zul> imbrandon: sure...but im not torn up about it
[20:36] <pochu> imbrandon: in fact every non-ubuntu-related post is against policy... :|
[20:37]  * zul can read and understand some french
[20:37] <imbrandon> pochu: no thats a recomendation , as planet is "a view into the lives of..."
[20:38] <imbrandon> pochu: infact it says "mostly about ubuntu"
[20:39] <pochu> imbrandon: from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu
[20:39] <pochu> Once you've done that, add a stanza like the following to the end of the config.ini file:
[20:39] <pochu> [http://blog.example.com/~yourusername/feed?category=ubuntu-only]
[20:39] <pochu> note that 'ubuntu-only' category ;)
[20:39] <ryanakca> imbrandon: I'd ask the guy to create two post categories on his blog, one for planet ubuntu, and then one for the ubuntu-fr planet
[20:40] <imbrandon> ryanakca: i plan to
[20:40] <imbrandon> pochu: 'Subscribed feeds ought to be at least occasionally relevant to Ubuntu, although the only hard and fast rule is "don't annoy people." '
[20:40] <imbrandon> hehe
[20:40] <pochu> imbrandon: then either one or the other is wrong :)
[20:42] <nxvl_work_> hi folks!
[20:42] <nxvl_work_> paper work is SO boring :(
[20:43]  * imbrandon goes to eat some turkey
[20:43] <imbrandon> bbiab
[20:49] <norsetto> nxvl_work: a good job is not finished until you have done your paperwork
[20:51] <ryanakca> what's wrong with paperwork? :P
[21:17] <bmhm> hi
[21:17] <bmhm> can you upgrade kismet please?
[21:17] <bmhm> your version is from 01.2007, but 10.2007 has been released yet with some very interesting features
[21:18] <bmhm> i got problems compiling it
[21:19] <LordKow> huh thats weird,
[21:19] <Fujitsu> !info kismet hardy
[21:19] <ubotu> kismet: Wireless 802.11b monitoring tool. In component universe, is optional. Version 2007-10-R1-2 (hardy), package size 946 kB, installed size 2480 kB
[21:19] <LordKow> apparently "	dh_builddeb --package=php5-clamavlib" and "	dh_builddeb --package=php5-clamavlib " are different
[21:19] <LordKow> anyone see something i dont? :P
[21:20] <pochu> LordKow: the space at the end in the second one?
[21:20] <LordKow> ah
[21:20] <bmhm> Fujitsu: i mean gutsy
[21:20] <LordKow> thanks ;)
[21:20] <pochu> yw :)
[21:20] <LordKow> dang those 0x20's
[21:20] <bmhm> !info kismet gutsy
[21:20] <ubotu> kismet: Wireless 802.11b monitoring tool. In component universe, is optional. Version 2007-01-R1b-1.1 (gutsy), package size 950 kB, installed size 2452 kB
[21:20] <bmhm> aha
[21:20] <Fujitsu> bmhm: We don't upgrade stable releases, except for through -backports.
[21:20] <Fujitsu> !timebasedreleases
[21:20] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[21:21] <bmhm> ok, i take a look at packages.ubuntu.com hoping it works
[21:21] <bmhm> Fujitsu: i can just see gutsy's release on that page
[21:21] <bmhm> ah
[21:22] <bmhm> never mind
[21:27] <LordKow> ugh any of you having issues filing bug reports?
[21:27] <bmhm> Fujitsu: okay, will the suggest driver be included?
[21:27] <bmhm> people at -devel told me to ask you
[21:27] <bmhm> http://fr.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/k/kismet/kismet_2007-10-R1-2_amd64.deb
[21:28] <pochu> bmhm: you can request it at https://bugs.launchpad.net/gutsy-backports
[21:28] <bmhm> pochu: i don't want a backport
[21:28] <bmhm> hardy's version runs fine
[21:28] <bmhm> I just aksed another question
[21:29] <pochu> oh, you mean that linuxdrivers thing?
[21:29] <pochu> sorry then
[21:29] <bmhm> yeah
[21:30] <pochu> for that I guess you can file a needs-packaging bug, or an RFP in Debian (if there's none yet)
[21:30] <bmhm> how, pochu ?
[21:31] <pochu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
[21:31] <pochu> and tag it 'needs-packaging'
[21:33] <pochu> bmhm: but aren't those drivers included in the kernel?
[21:34] <bmhm> not in gutsy, and a lot of distros included them some months ago already
[21:36] <LordKow> bug 164585 quick sync for whoever wants it ;)
[21:36] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 164585 in php-clamavlib "[hardy] Please sync php-clamavlib-0.13-1 (universe) from debian unstable (web)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164585
[21:37] <LordKow> i guess i should check to see if i can build debian's version
[21:38] <bmhm> LordKow: someone from -devel just told me they might put it into hardy's kernel
[21:38] <LordKow> i've always assumed that it would not FTBFS
[21:38] <LordKow> bmhm, how do you put clamav into the kernel?
[21:38] <bmhm> oh i thought you were talking about b43 as well :)
[21:39] <LordKow> doesnt 2.6.24 include a new and much improvement broadcom driver?
[21:39] <bmhm> dunno, maybe it's the one i was talking about
[21:39] <LordKow> the new iwl drivers for intel wireless cards are much much better
[21:39] <bmhm> the best thing about .23 and .24 is the new scheduler
[21:40] <bmhm> I got an bcm43xx :(
[21:40] <LordKow> quite honestly, i dont think the new scheduler will make a ton of difference for a normal desktop user.
[21:40] <LordKow> i haven't noticed a huge diff, im using .24-rc3 atm
[21:53] <LordKow> do we have the same "Python Policy" as as debian?
[21:54] <norsetto> lordkow: which policy? The new policy?
[21:54] <LordKow> yea
[21:54] <norsetto> lordkow: or the new new policy?
[21:54] <LordKow> debian bug 373411
[21:54] <ubotu> Debian bug 373411 in wxwindows2.4 "Python policy transition" [Grave,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/373411
[21:56] <norsetto> LordKow: yes, thats the new new policy
[21:56] <LordKow> and we follow suite?
[21:56] <norsetto> lordkow: it will soon be made obsolete by the new new new policy I expect
[21:57] <LordKow> lol okay
[21:58] <LordKow> i will not merge wxwindows2.4 or even request a sync then because debians change is due to the new new policy only.
[21:58] <norsetto> LordKow: but seriously, yes, we follow Debian
[21:58] <LordKow> well it cant be a sync because we add some sparc and ppc stuff
[22:14] <DaveMorris> I've fixed the last loads of comments in my package on revu. Can it now be checked again please - http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=libserial
[22:22] <LordKow> should build-depends be libglu1-mesa-dev or libglu1-xorg-dev? apparently the xorg-dev variant is just a transitional package for debian sarge to edge
[22:23] <luk_> s/edge/etch/
[22:24] <somerville32> Does apt-cache show info from binary or source?
[22:25] <imbrandon> somerville32: binary, use showsrc for source
[22:25] <LordKow> er thanks luk
[22:26] <LordKow> s/libglu1-xorg-dev/libgl1-xorg-dev
[22:26] <LordKow> the changelog answered that q btw :)
[22:34] <LordKow> i really dislike changelog entries like "  * Rebuild for ldbl128 change on powerpc and sparc." especially when there are lot of other changes.
[22:34] <geser> LordKow: what other changes?
[22:35] <LordKow> locale changes, sed usage changes (use " vs ')
[22:35] <geser> from MoM?
[22:35] <geser> have you an example at hand?
[22:35] <LordKow> no im working on a merge and im verifying previous changes
[22:36] <LordKow> the wxwindows2.4 merge. maybe if you take a look at a debdiff between our current ubuntu version and the debian version from which it is based you can tell me what that change refers to
[22:36] <LordKow> let me upload the debdiff and i'll link you to it
[22:36] <LordKow> save you some work :)
[22:38] <pochu> LordKow: rebuilds are no-change-uploads afaik... so just ignore those entries :)
[22:38] <geser> LordKow: the last Ubuntu delta is available as a patch e.g. on PTS
[22:38] <LordKow> ah
[22:38] <LordKow> http://weather.ou.edu/~kdrake/old_debian-old_ubuntu.debdiff kind of unneeded now but there you go if you want to look
[22:39] <geser> LordKow: the -1ubuntu2 is a rebuild only
[22:39] <LordKow> yea, its all figured out now
[22:40] <geser> and -1ubuntu1 looks like a MoM generated merge, MoM likes to do changes to .po files
[22:40] <geser> I ignore those changes if they aren't listed in one changelog entry
[22:47] <DaveMorris> can someone give my package on revu a run down please - http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=cpptest
[23:12] <LordKow> NMU = ?
[23:12] <pochu> Non Maintainer Upload
[23:12] <LordKow> k
[23:12] <LordKow> this is a useless merge but oh well, might as well do it
[23:13] <LordKow> only debian change was to put the new new python policy into effect which in turn builds against python2.4 instead of 2.3, but we already do that heheh
[23:28] <LordKow> this is nice. im starting to run into merges i cant do because they're already being done/are done in LP :D
[23:30] <LordKow> bug 132603 can this be closed, or marked invalid... its out-of-date?
[23:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 132603 in uswsusp "Please update the uswsusp package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/132603
[23:32] <DktrKranz> LordKow, did you file merge request in bug 164599 ?
[23:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 164599 in wxwindows2.4 "Please upload merge wxwindows2.4-2.4.5.1.1 (universe) from Debian sid (libs)" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164599
[23:33] <LordKow> DktrKranz, isnt that bug THE request?
[23:33] <nenolod> it'd be nice if somebody would be sure to sync xmms-crossfade, audtty, wmauda and g15daemon-audacious from debian unstable
[23:33] <nenolod> they fix many dbus transition issues
[23:34] <DktrKranz> LordKow, it is. I noticed your debdiff does not include previous Ubuntu changes, though :(
[23:35] <LordKow> the changelog? i think it does
[23:36] <LordKow> the new debian base -> new ubuntu candidate debdiff adds all of the ubuntu changes to the changelog.
[23:37] <LordKow> as for the actual changes themselves. i went through the debdiff and verified every change against debians is noted
[23:37] <LordKow> which is (1) sed changes in rules and (2) po stuff
[23:38] <DktrKranz> It is good to have them listed, thanks :)
[23:38] <DktrKranz> But it seems to me you did a debdiff against latest Ubuntu version, and not against latest Debian version
[23:38] <LordKow> i did both
[23:38] <LordKow> the one against the latest ubuntu should be pretty much empty.
[23:39] <LordKow> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/10519790/new_debian-new_ubuntu.debdiff
[23:39] <LordKow> i think that is what you are looking for, DktrKranz
[23:41] <DktrKranz> So, it is ok to consider only the first one as a candidate debdiff?
[23:42] <DktrKranz> I looked only at the second one :)
[23:42] <LordKow> well, they're different debdiffs
[23:42] <LordKow> the first one is against the new debian base, the 2nd one is against the current ubuntu version, as per the merge guide :)
[23:43] <DktrKranz> Ok, looks clear to me now. Thanks :)
[23:43] <LordKow> im still wondering why the current ubuntu version has a debian maintainer when its an ubuntu release
[23:43] <LordKow> so i think this merge actually has some use
[23:44] <LordKow> unless it was the debian maintainer who was nice enough to produce the ubuntu version for us :)
[23:45] <LordKow> DktrKranz, i must say i did not check it for FTBFS simply because there are no build rules or source changes against our current version.
[23:46] <DktrKranz> It takes a bit for wxwidgets to compile, so a test run is advisable. I resubscribe u-u-s queue for sponsorship.
[23:47] <LordKow> k i'll build now.
[23:49] <DktrKranz> It took 27 minutes on our buildd, if you have a some obsolete hardware (as me), it will take you much longer :)
[23:51] <s1024kb> good morning everyone
[23:51] <DktrKranz> morning s1024kb
[23:55] <LordKow> i cant believe im asking this, but how do you actually apply a debdiff... patch?
[23:56] <LordKow> oh nevermind, i can use patch and apply it to the pkg src dir
[23:58] <ryanakca> Is it possible to temporarily add a repo to a schroot? (aka, for one build only?)