=== d33p__ is now known as luisbg
=== `23meg is now known as mgunes
=== elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu
nysosymhi there08:27
nysosymi have made a wallpaper, what do you think?08:30
=== elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu
=== andreasn_ is now known as andreasn
MandarancidI'm searching  ?lvaro Medina Ballester10:19
MandarancidHe is on this channel??10:19
thorwilis it possible to fill any block in text mode with graphics, or is that somehow restricted? (boot screen)13:12
TheSheepthorwil: you only have 255 characters, and half of them is needed for letters13:24
TheSheepthorwil: so you can only have about 128 different shapes, possibly less13:24
thorwilah, ok13:25
TheSheepthey can repeat, of course13:25
thorwilTheSheep, i have images that look like keys for the F options in mind13:26
kwwiiwe do not have a graphical grub currently13:50
thorwilkwwii, i mean the boot screen of the live cd13:52
kwwiiahhh, right13:55
thorwilso, to be sure i get this right: the whole screen is divided into mono-sized characters. there's a table of 255 characters. if you want to do graphics, you have to use otherwise free characters. what about colour depth?13:58
TheSheepthorwil: every character has one of 16 foreground colors, and one of 8 background colors (unless blinking is disabled, then you get 16 background colors14:06
TheSheepthorwil: the 8 background colors are the same as the first 8 foreground colors14:06
thorwilTheSheep, ty :)14:08
* thorwil -> coffee14:08
kwwiierm, I just borked the wiki14:12
* _MMA_ points at Ken and snickers.14:12
kwwii_MMA_: fixed14:13
* _MMA_ wanted to add to Kens daily suffering.14:13
kwwiiso, I had a chat with Jono today and we are going to start making monthly reports14:13
kwwiiI voluntell _MMA_ to make them :p14:14
_MMA_Yeah. He just PM'ed me also.14:14
_MMA_Hell. I aint doing 2.14:14
kwwiiif you are doing one for ubuntu-studio how much more work can the artwork one be?14:14
TheSheepmonthly == it takes a month to make them? :)14:14
kwwiianyway...everything you are doing as far as artwork goes will be promptly stolen by us14:14
kwwiiTheSheep: hehe, no doubt14:15
andreasn_congrats _MMA_ on having to do the reports ;)14:16
* _MMA_ runs screaming.14:16
kwwiiandreasn_: scott asked me to approximate how long it takes to make an entire icon set, I said 2-3 years :-)14:18
kwwiisound right?14:18
andreasn_covering all the apps in universe I would say 7-8 years14:18
andreasn_as you have like 14000 apps or something like that14:19
andreasn_all of them aren't gui apps I would guess though14:19
=== d33p__ is now known as luisbg
andreasn_but I think gnomefiles have about 1200 registered applications14:20
_MMA_kwwii: And Scott's response? :)14:20
kwwiiandreasn_: yeah, there really is no such thing as a finished icon set as new aps come along every day14:21
kwwii_MMA_: he simply accepted that14:22
_MMA_Ahh.... Cool.14:22
kwwiiI told him that to rework the human set (partial set) it would take at least 6-9 months to get most of them done14:22
kwwiii had to approximate how much time everything takes...kinda hard to pull numbers our of your butt without being able to explain how one thing can change everything else, getting things coherent, etc14:23
andreasn_yeah, time estimates are often quite hard14:24
kwwiiafter we went through them he said "oh, we have quite a lot of extra time" which kinda worried me14:25
kwwiiI know now that the mobile stuff is going to come back to haunt me14:25
kwwiisoooo. since _MMA_ is too lazy to really help with the team, I went ahead and did his work this month: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/ReportingPage14:28
_MMA_Im working on my own as we speak.14:28
kwwiilet me know if you need any help :p14:29
kwwiianyone know how to turn off the panel in gnome?14:30
andreasn_like removing it?14:30
andreasn_right click, "Delete this panel"14:30
Mandarancid_MMA_: I made tow simple variants of my folder icons, (blue for ubuntu studio and orange for ubuntu)14:31
kwwiiandreasn_: the top panel does not have that option14:31
=== andreasn_ is now known as andreasn
andreasnkwwii: hm, really?14:31
andreasnworks here14:31
kwwiiandreasn: hrm, it is greyed out14:31
thorwilkwwii, maybe turn of restarting in session prefs and then just kill gnome-panel?14:31
andreasnkwwii: oh, seems you're right14:31
_MMA_Mandarancid: Cool. I have as well. Give me about an hour and we can talk about it.14:32
kwwiithorwil: hrm, you might be right but I don't want to bork my system just yet14:33
kwwiianyway, been using awn lately...have to say that it is really nice14:35
thorwilkwwii, shouldn't be hard o revert changes to the session. but you could do it in a new user account14:37
andreasnkwwii: apparently you can only kill one if you have two panels14:37
kwwiithorwil: right, I will try it in my test account to see what works and how easy it is get back to the normal settings14:37
kwwiianyone else tried the avant window navigator?14:39
elkbuntui've been meaning too, but i've been trying to find a rent-paying job so much lately i havent really had time/motivation to do any meddling14:41
elkbuntuit'd be nice if newbies that dont understand what an alpha is would stop trying to use it only to whine when it isnt entirely stable14:42
elkbuntui'm actually geeking out for the first time in months... reinstalling my debian system and reintroducing myself to e17 for the first time since around march14:43
kwwiie17 has some interesting ideas but it is still pretty raw14:44
elkbuntuit's actually nearing some form of maturity according to rasterman14:44
elkbuntui think it's pretty amazing what they've managed to get it to do... almost a poor man's compiz14:46
kwwiihehe, new artowrk from rasterman, I can't wait to see that14:46
kwwiiuntil now I thought that the gold stuff was all he could do :p14:46
elkbuntuheh, i quite like the gold bling look14:46
kwwiiI did too, about 9 years ago14:46
elkbuntuhow's your engraved look coming along?14:47
kwwiihaven't been working on it today, probably do more on the weekend14:52
andreasnkwwii: managed to delete the panel?15:05
andreasnkwwii: according to vuntz the system kinds of expect you to have at least one panel, there might be a bug open about it though15:06
andreasnkwwii: maybe it works to just kill it15:06
kwwiiandreasn: nope, I am waiting until I login as another user15:39
Mandarancid_MMA_: i send you the mail with15:45
Mandarancidthe prototypes15:45
_MMA_Mandarancid: Cool. You should also talk with kwwii about waiting ubtill we have a little more direction for the art.15:47
_MMA_We dont want you to do alot now only to have to change it later.15:48
Mandarancid_MMA_: Of course, I do only some little ideas, work for 5-30 minutes15:49
MandarancidNot a problme15:49
_MMA_Ok. :)15:50
kwwiiMandarancid: maybe we could set a time to dicuss your ideas?16:18
kwwiiI am taking my family our for dinner in a bit, let's find a time when we could talk about this16:19
MandarancidYes when you can..16:19
Mandarancida moment i search the dictionary for transalte some words16:21
MandarancidI'm free tomorrow after lunch and in the afternoon16:22
Mandarancidif you and _MMA_ can..16:22
kwwiithat could work for me (I am in the same time zone as you I think)16:25
_MMA_I can meet whenever.16:25
MandarancidI live in italy16:26
_MMA_Just need a time.16:26
kwwiiMandarancid: yeah, I live in germany16:26
kwwiilet's say somewhere around 13:00 UTC which would be 15:00 CET, sound good?16:27
_MMA_After 3pm your time is good for me.16:27
Mandarancidok 3.30 ?16:27
kwwiithen _MMA_ will have time to eat breakfast first ;-)16:27
_MMA_12:30 UTC then.16:28
* _MMA_ is mixed up.16:29
_MMA_Whatever. Ill be around. :D16:30
kwwiiright, around 13:30 UTC16:30
kwwiiIn the meantime I think in UTC :p16:31
* kwwii is out for dinner, bbl16:31
* _MMA_ goes to play with the family.16:31
troy_s<andreasn> kwwii: managed to delete the panel?16:33
troy_spkill works.16:33
hbonsi think you can't delete your last panel16:33
troy_shbons: you need to pkill it.16:34
troy_shbons: I know what kwwii is probably trying to do -- rid himself of the clunky gnome panels.16:34
troy_shbons: kill -9 pid or pkill worked for me.16:34
darkmattertroy_s: I hate osx clones, but this deserves points just for the execution http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Aurora+Firefox+Theme+and+more?content=7013817:14
darkmatteras its not frankensteinish like the other mac-wannabe's17:14
troy_si would give that a cautionary plus one for certain17:15
andreasnRegarding unified toolbars. How do you know what area to hit & drag?17:24
troy_sandreasn: I would hope that you learn it rather quickly.17:27
darkmatterandreasn: oh oh oh! I know the answer! you just use the mindset of a gnome developer and remove the option! :D17:33
* darkmatter smart17:33
hbonsandreasn: hand pointer:)17:41
darkmattermy options better :P17:42
troy_shbons: Ugh17:42
hbonso just patch gtk:P17:42
troy_show about we make an assumption that our audience member is leveraging an existing mental model and has used a computer previously.17:42
troy_shbons: We could do a neat composited floating set of about 16 arrows that point at the bar.17:43
darkmattertroy_s: but that goes against the HIG!17:43
darkmatterthat, btw. applied to the first statement ;)17:44
hbonsdoes ubuntu even folow gnome hig for it's tools17:44
troy_sdarkmatter: Yeah.  That good old 'usability' fallacy.17:44
troy_shbons: Well considering it is an absolute fallacy, I would wonder why.17:44
hbonsi see a lot of "OK" buttons in ubuntu:)17:44
darkmattertroy_s: indeed "all users are idiots." as the would have us believe17:45
troy_sdarkmatter: I don't think that is the goal of the HIG, but keeping the amount of information to process within some limits per appearance (READ:  Progressive Discolusure) is something that gets a plus one from me.17:46
thorwildarkmatter, i think you havn't seen enough users in action ;)17:47
troy_sdarkmatter: I have a bigger issue with the fact that the HIG presents itself as truth without discussing the intended audience.17:47
darkmattertroy_s: I remember a discussion with one usability expert who thought that all the toolbar icons needed to be different colours because users wouldnt be able to identify them based on shape (as in back, forward, up, down)17:47
troy_sdarkmatter: Well... again, usability is a fallacy.17:48
troy_sdarkmatter: It is one term that has no bearing, no usefulness, and absolutely no meaning without stating very clearly _who_ the usable is for.17:48
troy_sdarkmatter: We can certainly make 'groupings' but it falls into that focus issue.  Too many people the delivery is watered down for the 'group' and too few it becomes too 'specific'.17:49
thorwiltroy_s, do you know the din iso definition of usability?17:49
thorwiltroy_s, in short: effectivity, efficiency and satisfaction building up on each other, as seen for a specific task/context and specific users17:50
troy_sthorwil: the last portion is the only part that matters.17:50
darkmatterusability should be a matter of interpretation as it applies to a focus group.17:50
troy_sthorwil: Specific users.17:50
thorwiltroy_s, so i would think with such a definition usability is not a fallacy. but you didn't limit your statement at all.17:51
troy_sthorwil: I said it because it comes out as much as 'is ugly'17:51
troy_sthorwil: The statements tend to be thrown around in a quasi scientific fashion, when in actually, they have no more bearing than the term 'good'.17:51
thorwiltroy_s, uninformed people misuse any term. can't shoot all the terms down ;)17:52
troy_sthorwil: Oh and if you can point me to the globally accepted definition of Usability I'll be darn impressed.17:52
thorwiltroy_s, din iso standard isn't too bad, i think. i rather pick a definition that makes the term useful instead of throwing it away17:53
thorwilfood, bbl17:53
troy_sthorwil: True enough.  That said, it is only as good as the folks who are using the same interpretation again I suppose.17:53
troy_sthorwil: My gut says to just throw it out simply because it helps people to avoid the very real fact that _Everything_ is in the context of the individual.  There was a very good article dismissing the notion of 'global culture' recently.  Great read as it completely smashes that myth (not exactly shocking for anyone who cares).17:54
darkmatterusability should be filed under "see situational software".17:55
troy_sdarkmatter: The only issue I really have with it is since I have been reading bug reports in Linux land.17:55
troy_sdarkmatter: The term gets thrown around at least as much as all of the 'laws', again ignoring the context, and more importantly, ignoring the very real 'functional' and 'usable' features of aesthetics.17:56
darkmattertroy_s: true. I dont know if you've ever witnessed me rant about fitts law in a similar context to you ranting on usability. ;)17:57
andreasndarkmatter: sorry for the delay, I'm in the middle of cooking dinner. I didn't mean that a unified toolbar was bad in itself, it was just a something that I came to think of while I was playing around with mockups of unitoolbar.17:57
darkmatterandreasn: I know. I was just attempting to be "witty" and failing miserably at it ;)17:58
andreasndarkmatter: I guess some of the solutions was text changing color on hover, making everything in the window that wasn't a widget draggable etc.17:58
andreasnanyway, back to dinner cooking, later!17:59
darkmattertroy_s: basically my take on all the laws and principles is that everything has a time and place, but there is no "all for one" clause and they should never be interpreted that way18:01
darkmattertroy_s: I've seen some vary good (well, decent) ui designs that have form and function that get shot down because they "*break* the HIG, and are thus unusable", "do not fitt", etc etc18:06
darkmatterbut you need to look at such aspects as they relate to the application itself. what its meant to do, and how well it accomplishes that goal (form an function ftw!)18:07

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