[08:27] <nysosym> hi there
[08:30] <nysosym> i have made a wallpaper, what do you think?
[08:30] <nysosym> http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smoothblack2sepiacopyfz6.png
[10:19] <Mandarancid> I'm searching  ?lvaro Medina Ballester
[10:19] <Mandarancid> He is on this channel??
[13:12] <thorwil> is it possible to fill any block in text mode with graphics, or is that somehow restricted? (boot screen)
[13:24] <TheSheep> thorwil: you only have 255 characters, and half of them is needed for letters
[13:24] <TheSheep> thorwil: so you can only have about 128 different shapes, possibly less
[13:25] <thorwil> ah, ok
[13:25] <TheSheep> they can repeat, of course
[13:26] <thorwil> TheSheep, i have images that look like keys for the F options in mind
[13:50] <kwwii> we do not have a graphical grub currently
[13:52] <thorwil> kwwii, i mean the boot screen of the live cd
[13:55] <kwwii> ahhh, right
[13:56] <kwwii> sys-linux
[13:58] <thorwil> so, to be sure i get this right: the whole screen is divided into mono-sized characters. there's a table of 255 characters. if you want to do graphics, you have to use otherwise free characters. what about colour depth?
[14:06] <TheSheep> thorwil: every character has one of 16 foreground colors, and one of 8 background colors (unless blinking is disabled, then you get 16 background colors
[14:06] <TheSheep> thorwil: the 8 background colors are the same as the first 8 foreground colors
[14:08] <thorwil> TheSheep, ty :)
[14:08]  * thorwil -> coffee
[14:12] <kwwii> erm, I just borked the wiki
[14:12] <_MMA_> lol
[14:12]  * _MMA_ points at Ken and snickers.
[14:13] <kwwii> _MMA_: fixed
[14:13] <_MMA_> :(
[14:13]  * _MMA_ wanted to add to Kens daily suffering.
[14:13] <kwwii> so, I had a chat with Jono today and we are going to start making monthly reports
[14:14] <kwwii> I voluntell _MMA_ to make them :p
[14:14] <_MMA_> Yeah. He just PM'ed me also.
[14:14] <_MMA_> Hell. I aint doing 2.
[14:14] <_MMA_> :P
[14:14] <kwwii> if you are doing one for ubuntu-studio how much more work can the artwork one be?
[14:14] <_MMA_> lol
[14:14] <TheSheep> monthly == it takes a month to make them? :)
[14:14] <kwwii> anyway...everything you are doing as far as artwork goes will be promptly stolen by us
[14:15] <kwwii> TheSheep: hehe, no doubt
[14:16] <andreasn_> congrats _MMA_ on having to do the reports ;)
[14:16] <_MMA_> lol
[14:16]  * _MMA_ runs screaming.
[14:18] <kwwii> andreasn_: scott asked me to approximate how long it takes to make an entire icon set, I said 2-3 years :-)
[14:18] <kwwii> sound right?
[14:18] <andreasn_> covering all the apps in universe I would say 7-8 years
[14:19] <andreasn_> as you have like 14000 apps or something like that
[14:19] <andreasn_> all of them aren't gui apps I would guess though
[14:20] <andreasn_> but I think gnomefiles have about 1200 registered applications
[14:20] <_MMA_> kwwii: And Scott's response? :)
[14:21] <kwwii> andreasn_: yeah, there really is no such thing as a finished icon set as new aps come along every day
[14:22] <andreasn_> yes
[14:22] <kwwii> _MMA_: he simply accepted that
[14:22] <_MMA_> Ahh.... Cool.
[14:22] <kwwii> I told him that to rework the human set (partial set) it would take at least 6-9 months to get most of them done
[14:23] <kwwii> i had to approximate how much time everything takes...kinda hard to pull numbers our of your butt without being able to explain how one thing can change everything else, getting things coherent, etc
[14:24] <andreasn_> yeah, time estimates are often quite hard
[14:25] <kwwii> after we went through them he said "oh, we have quite a lot of extra time" which kinda worried me
[14:25] <kwwii> :-)
[14:25] <kwwii> I know now that the mobile stuff is going to come back to haunt me
[14:26] <andreasn_> heh
[14:28] <kwwii> soooo. since _MMA_ is too lazy to really help with the team, I went ahead and did his work this month: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/ReportingPage
[14:28] <_MMA_> :P
[14:28] <_MMA_> Im working on my own as we speak.
[14:29] <kwwii> let me know if you need any help :p
[14:30] <kwwii> anyone know how to turn off the panel in gnome?
[14:30] <andreasn_> like removing it?
[14:30] <kwwii> yeah
[14:30] <andreasn_> right click, "Delete this panel"
[14:31] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: I made tow simple variants of my folder icons, (blue for ubuntu studio and orange for ubuntu)
[14:31] <kwwii> andreasn_: the top panel does not have that option
[14:31] <andreasn> kwwii: hm, really?
[14:31] <andreasn> works here
[14:31] <kwwii> andreasn: hrm, it is greyed out
[14:31] <thorwil> kwwii, maybe turn of restarting in session prefs and then just kill gnome-panel?
[14:31] <andreasn> kwwii: oh, seems you're right
[14:31] <andreasn> hm
[14:32] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. I have as well. Give me about an hour and we can talk about it.
[14:32] <lapo> hi
[14:32] <Mandarancid> _MMA_:OK
[14:33] <kwwii> thorwil: hrm, you might be right but I don't want to bork my system just yet
[14:35] <kwwii> anyway, been using awn lately...have to say that it is really nice
[14:37] <thorwil> kwwii, shouldn't be hard o revert changes to the session. but you could do it in a new user account
[14:37] <andreasn> kwwii: apparently you can only kill one if you have two panels
[14:37] <kwwii> thorwil: right, I will try it in my test account to see what works and how easy it is get back to the normal settings
[14:39] <kwwii> anyone else tried the avant window navigator?
[14:41] <elkbuntu> i've been meaning too, but i've been trying to find a rent-paying job so much lately i havent really had time/motivation to do any meddling
[14:42] <elkbuntu> it'd be nice if newbies that dont understand what an alpha is would stop trying to use it only to whine when it isnt entirely stable
[14:43] <elkbuntu> i'm actually geeking out for the first time in months... reinstalling my debian system and reintroducing myself to e17 for the first time since around march
[14:43] <kwwii> ;-)
[14:44] <kwwii> e17 has some interesting ideas but it is still pretty raw
[14:44] <elkbuntu> it's actually nearing some form of maturity according to rasterman
[14:44] <elkbuntu> http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18886/Rasterman-Speaks-Out-About-Enlightenment/
[14:46] <elkbuntu> i think it's pretty amazing what they've managed to get it to do... almost a poor man's compiz
[14:46] <kwwii> hehe, new artowrk from rasterman, I can't wait to see that
[14:46] <kwwii> until now I thought that the gold stuff was all he could do :p
[14:46] <elkbuntu> heh, i quite like the gold bling look
[14:46] <kwwii> I did too, about 9 years ago
[14:47] <elkbuntu> :Þ
[14:47] <elkbuntu> how's your engraved look coming along?
[14:52] <kwwii> haven't been working on it today, probably do more on the weekend
[15:05] <andreasn> kwwii: managed to delete the panel?
[15:06] <andreasn> kwwii: according to vuntz the system kinds of expect you to have at least one panel, there might be a bug open about it though
[15:06] <andreasn> kwwii: maybe it works to just kill it
[15:39] <kwwii> andreasn: nope, I am waiting until I login as another user
[15:45] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: i send you the mail with
[15:45] <Mandarancid> the prototypes
[15:45] <Mandarancid> ..
[15:47] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. You should also talk with kwwii about waiting ubtill we have a little more direction for the art.
[15:48] <_MMA_> We dont want you to do alot now only to have to change it later.
[15:49] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: Of course, I do only some little ideas, work for 5-30 minutes
[15:49] <Mandarancid> ..
[15:49] <Mandarancid> Not a problme
[15:49] <Mandarancid> --
[15:50] <_MMA_> Ok. :)
[16:18] <kwwii> Mandarancid: maybe we could set a time to dicuss your ideas?
[16:19] <kwwii> I am taking my family our for dinner in a bit, let's find a time when we could talk about this
[16:19] <Mandarancid> Yes when you can..
[16:21] <Mandarancid> a moment i search the dictionary for transalte some words
[16:22] <Mandarancid> I'm free tomorrow after lunch and in the afternoon
[16:22] <Mandarancid> if you and _MMA_ can..
[16:25] <kwwii> that could work for me (I am in the same time zone as you I think)
[16:25] <_MMA_> I can meet whenever.
[16:26] <Mandarancid> I live in italy
[16:26] <_MMA_> Just need a time.
[16:26] <kwwii> Mandarancid: yeah, I live in germany
[16:27] <kwwii> let's say somewhere around 13:00 UTC which would be 15:00 CET, sound good?
[16:27] <_MMA_> After 3pm your time is good for me.
[16:27] <Mandarancid> ok 3.30 ?
[16:27] <kwwii> then _MMA_ will have time to eat breakfast first ;-)
[16:28] <_MMA_> ;)
[16:28] <_MMA_> 12:30 UTC then.
[16:28] <_MMA_> no
[16:29] <_MMA_> 13:30
[16:29]  * _MMA_ is mixed up.
[16:29] <Mandarancid> Yhea
[16:30] <_MMA_> Whatever. Ill be around. :D
[16:30] <kwwii> right, around 13:30 UTC
[16:31] <_MMA_> Done.
[16:31] <kwwii> In the meantime I think in UTC :p
[16:31] <Mandarancid> dok
[16:31]  * kwwii is out for dinner, bbl
[16:31]  * _MMA_ goes to play with the family.
 kwwii: managed to delete the panel?
[16:33] <troy_s> pkill works.
[16:33] <hbons> i think you can't delete your last panel
[16:34] <troy_s> hbons: you need to pkill it.
[16:34] <troy_s> hbons: I know what kwwii is probably trying to do -- rid himself of the clunky gnome panels.
[16:34] <troy_s> hbons: kill -9 pid or pkill worked for me.
[17:14] <darkmatter> troy_s: I hate osx clones, but this deserves points just for the execution http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Aurora+Firefox+Theme+and+more?content=70138
[17:14] <darkmatter> as its not frankensteinish like the other mac-wannabe's
[17:14] <troy_s> yeah
[17:15] <troy_s> i would give that a cautionary plus one for certain
[17:24] <andreasn> Regarding unified toolbars. How do you know what area to hit & drag?
[17:27] <troy_s> andreasn: I would hope that you learn it rather quickly.
[17:33] <darkmatter> andreasn: oh oh oh! I know the answer! you just use the mindset of a gnome developer and remove the option! :D
[17:33]  * darkmatter smart
[17:33] <darkmatter> S.M.R.T.
[17:41] <hbons> andreasn: hand pointer:)
[17:42] <darkmatter> my options better :P
[17:42] <troy_s> hbons: Ugh
[17:42] <troy_s> lol
[17:42] <hbons> o just patch gtk:P
[17:42] <troy_s> how about we make an assumption that our audience member is leveraging an existing mental model and has used a computer previously.
[17:43] <troy_s> lol
[17:43] <troy_s> hbons: We could do a neat composited floating set of about 16 arrows that point at the bar.
[17:43] <darkmatter> troy_s: but that goes against the HIG!
[17:43] <darkmatter> blasphemy!
[17:44] <darkmatter> that, btw. applied to the first statement ;)
[17:44] <hbons> does ubuntu even folow gnome hig for it's tools
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah.  That good old 'usability' fallacy.
[17:44] <darkmatter> hehe
[17:44] <troy_s> hbons: Well considering it is an absolute fallacy, I would wonder why.
[17:44] <hbons> i see a lot of "OK" buttons in ubuntu:)
[17:45] <darkmatter> troy_s: indeed "all users are idiots." as the would have us believe
[17:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: I don't think that is the goal of the HIG, but keeping the amount of information to process within some limits per appearance (READ:  Progressive Discolusure) is something that gets a plus one from me.
[17:47] <thorwil> darkmatter, i think you havn't seen enough users in action ;)
[17:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: I have a bigger issue with the fact that the HIG presents itself as truth without discussing the intended audience.
[17:47] <darkmatter> troy_s: I remember a discussion with one usability expert who thought that all the toolbar icons needed to be different colours because users wouldnt be able to identify them based on shape (as in back, forward, up, down)
[17:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well... again, usability is a fallacy.
[17:48] <darkmatter> exactly
[17:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is one term that has no bearing, no usefulness, and absolutely no meaning without stating very clearly _who_ the usable is for.
[17:49] <darkmatter> yup
[17:49] <troy_s> darkmatter: We can certainly make 'groupings' but it falls into that focus issue.  Too many people the delivery is watered down for the 'group' and too few it becomes too 'specific'.
[17:49] <thorwil> troy_s, do you know the din iso definition of usability?
[17:50] <thorwil> troy_s, in short: effectivity, efficiency and satisfaction building up on each other, as seen for a specific task/context and specific users
[17:50] <troy_s> thorwil: the last portion is the only part that matters.
[17:50] <darkmatter> usability should be a matter of interpretation as it applies to a focus group.
[17:50] <troy_s> thorwil: Specific users.
[17:51] <thorwil> troy_s, so i would think with such a definition usability is not a fallacy. but you didn't limit your statement at all.
[17:51] <troy_s> thorwil: I said it because it comes out as much as 'is ugly'
[17:51] <troy_s> thorwil: The statements tend to be thrown around in a quasi scientific fashion, when in actually, they have no more bearing than the term 'good'.
[17:52] <thorwil> troy_s, uninformed people misuse any term. can't shoot all the terms down ;)
[17:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Oh and if you can point me to the globally accepted definition of Usability I'll be darn impressed.
[17:53] <thorwil> troy_s, din iso standard isn't too bad, i think. i rather pick a definition that makes the term useful instead of throwing it away
[17:53] <thorwil> food, bbl
[17:53] <troy_s> thorwil: True enough.  That said, it is only as good as the folks who are using the same interpretation again I suppose.
[17:54] <troy_s> thorwil: My gut says to just throw it out simply because it helps people to avoid the very real fact that _Everything_ is in the context of the individual.  There was a very good article dismissing the notion of 'global culture' recently.  Great read as it completely smashes that myth (not exactly shocking for anyone who cares).
[17:55] <darkmatter> usability should be filed under "see situational software".
[17:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: The only issue I really have with it is since I have been reading bug reports in Linux land.
[17:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: The term gets thrown around at least as much as all of the 'laws', again ignoring the context, and more importantly, ignoring the very real 'functional' and 'usable' features of aesthetics.
[17:57] <darkmatter> troy_s: true. I dont know if you've ever witnessed me rant about fitts law in a similar context to you ranting on usability. ;)
[17:57] <andreasn> darkmatter: sorry for the delay, I'm in the middle of cooking dinner. I didn't mean that a unified toolbar was bad in itself, it was just a something that I came to think of while I was playing around with mockups of unitoolbar.
[17:58] <darkmatter> andreasn: I know. I was just attempting to be "witty" and failing miserably at it ;)
[17:58] <andreasn> darkmatter: I guess some of the solutions was text changing color on hover, making everything in the window that wasn't a widget draggable etc.
[17:59] <andreasn> anyway, back to dinner cooking, later!
[18:01] <darkmatter> troy_s: basically my take on all the laws and principles is that everything has a time and place, but there is no "all for one" clause and they should never be interpreted that way
[18:06] <darkmatter> troy_s: I've seen some vary good (well, decent) ui designs that have form and function that get shot down because they "*break* the HIG, and are thus unusable", "do not fitt", etc etc
[18:07] <darkmatter> but you need to look at such aspects as they relate to the application itself. what its meant to do, and how well it accomplishes that goal (form an function ftw!)
[18:07] <darkmatter> *very