Hobbsee@schedule sydney02:10
ubotuSchedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Nov 23:00: MOTU meeting | 30 Nov 01:00: Desktop Team Development02:10
=== LongPointyPony is now known as LongPointyStick
=== LongPointyStick is now known as GoldenPony
=== huahua is now known as Lige
=== Lige is now known as lige
=== GoldenPony is now known as Hobbsee
=== SD-Plissken is now known as SD-Plissken`away
=== Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee
=== huahua_ is now known as Huahua
MacSlowGreetings everybody!08:26
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
persiaErm.  Is ubotu's clock fast, or is mine slow?11:51
dholbachpersia: I think it announces the next meeting 10 minutes beforehand11:52
persiaAh.  It's intentional then.  OK.11:52
* persia prepares notes11:52
dholbachwho takes notes?11:53
TheMusoI'd say I would do it, but, I think I've done it enough.11:53
persiadholbach: I always make notes when I'm presenting a topic, or are you asking about minutes?11:53
TheMusoFOr a while at least.11:53
dholbachI meant minutes11:54
dholbachTheMuso: thanks a lot for doing that the last 3456765434567 times11:54
TheMusodholbach: lol np. I just think its a good experience for others.11:54
dholbachyeah, I agree11:54
persiaI'll take minutes if nobody else wants them, but as I'm presenting a topic, I'm not sure there isn't a conflict of interest11:54
TheMusoHowever, I am happy to send out reminders, as they didn't happen this time around.11:54
TheMusopersia: Lets see how many turn up.11:55
dholbachthanks TheMuso11:55
dholbachpersia: I think that's fine11:55
persiaWas I supposed to send announcements this time?  Sorry :)11:55
TheMusopersia: I don't know. Were you11:55
* persia has forgotten11:55
TheMusoNever mind.11:55
\shmorning all11:57
=== sladen_ is now known as sladen
\shjust grabbing a coffee11:58
Hobbseeoh, there's a MOTU meeting.11:59
MootBotMeeting started at 12:00. The chair is dholbach.12:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]12:00
dholbachWelcome everybody to another MOTU Meeting!12:00
dholbachWe have an agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings12:00
dholbachand we have persia and pitti (just pinged him) presenting the first item on it12:00
dholbachUpdates to the universe SRU policy. See TB review from [WWW] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html12:00
persiaThe Technical Board recently discussed the SRU policy for Universe, due to questions on the part of the archive administrators.  The results were published to the ubuntu-devel mailing list, and a decision was requested from MOTU.  I've raised this item to the agenda for discussion and selection between the two choices presented by the technical board.12:00
persia[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html12:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html12:00
persiaAfter informal discussion in various media, I'd like to encourage the restoration of ~motu-sru as an approval body.  With sufficient staffing, I believe that a single ACK should not be a significant delay.12:00
persiaFurther, I'd like to propose that the members of ~motu-sru be directly appointed by the MOTU Council, and that any issues with the membership of the team be raised to MC for dispute resolution.12:00
persiaAdditionally, I'd like to request review of the policy by the newly restored ~motu-sru, with an eye towards explaining any variation from main.12:01
* persia is done flooding12:01
TheMusoNo argument from me.12:01
TheMusoSounds pretty clear cut.12:01
sistpoty|work+1 on all points from me :)12:02
dholbachWhat about the following plan? The MC will ask for people to join ~motu-sru and appoint say 4 members among them.12:02
sorenSomeone suggested at some point that the UVF team and the SRU team should be the same.12:02
persiadholbach: That sounds good to me: I'm not concerned with how MC appoints, I just don't think we should vote for wisdom.12:02
pittiyeah, both is about enforcing freeze policies and review12:02
dholbachHaving experienced this to be a bottle-neck and it not being easy to find those people, we could still fallback to 2b to decide and move forward.12:03
sistpoty|workdholbach: maybe rather 5 ppl?12:03
persiasoren: I'm not sure about that: that might mean a lot of work after FF12:03
\shI want to see people in the SRU team, who knows very well, that it's vital that those updates are really fixing bugs and not introducing strange new behaviours to our software12:03
pittireally, two or three people should be enough12:03
dholbachsistpoty|work: works for me... my main point is trying to avoid the situation where we don't get the team staffed and the process is stalling12:03
pittiNB that we don't want a lot of SRUs in the first place12:03
persiapitti: Not with current MOTU activity: we need volume to ensure we don't block on missing people.12:03
* \sh wonders who pushed azeureus through -updates yesterday with a backports number12:03
sistpoty|workdholbach: sure, let's just say 5 is ideal, but the team could start working with less members as well ;)12:04
* persia agrees with sistpoty12:04
\sh+1 for sistpoty|work12:04
dholbach[ACTION] dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.12:05
MootBotACTION received:  dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.12:05
pitti\sh: that was sort of a special case; it was tested in backports, and since it is completely broken in feisty we copied it to -updates12:05
pitti\sh: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/azureus/+bug/5787512:05
persiaSo, does the adoption of this require further discussion, or should it be AGREED ?12:05
ubotuLaunchpad bug 57875 in azureus "Azureus hangs or crashes showing splash screen at start" [High,Fix released]12:05
sistpoty|workpitti, soren: not too sure if having uvf team the same as sru team, as the review process is different (single patches vs. diffstats), shrug12:05
TheMusoI don't think further discussion is needed.12:06
\shpitti, well, on gutsy it was just crashing when opening the torrent link tab...not at the splash12:06
sorensistpoty|work: I'd *really* like to change the policy about UVF this time, too, actually. diffstats mean *nothing* to me.12:06
\shpitti, anyways...not important here ,-)12:06
pittisistpoty|work: really? people read diffstats? what's the purpose of that?12:06
dholbachpitti: to get an idea of how big the changes are, to see if they are only doc/ changes, etc12:06
persiasoren: pitti: It's one of the ways to identify the volume of change.12:06
sorenpitti: That's the UVF policy. It says to submit diffstat's. Go figure.12:06
sistpoty|workpitti: don't know... have never been a member of motu-uvf12:06
sorenpersia: I can make completely crackful patches in just one line and really good patches in 10000 lines.12:07
pittipersia: right, but you still need to review the actual changes, and filterdiff'ing the debdiff is more useful IMHO12:07
dholbachlet's separate the uvf discussion from the current ont for now12:07
pittiright, sorry12:07
persiapitti: I use both, but yes.12:07
Lutindholbach: on the other hand, you can break APIs with tiny changes (speaking about the diffstat size)12:07
sorendholbach: Right, sorry.12:07
dholbachLutin: sure12:07
dholbachok, shall we discuss merging the two teams now?12:07
pittiok, seems there is no real discussion about the new SRU policy?12:08
persiadholbach: Could we have a MootBot AGREED on the policy choice before discussing team merge?12:08
dholbachthe SRU policy decision seems to be fine as it is, I just hope we get the team together quickly12:08
sistpoty|workpersia: +112:08
dholbach[AGREED] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)12:08
MootBotAGREED received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)12:08
dholbach[TOPIC] Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?12:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?12:09
sistpoty|workI'd rather not do this...12:09
persiaI'll argue against this: they are different tests of suitability, and it makes for a possible high volume of review (even for a high reject rate) between FF and release.12:09
TheMusoHaving never been on either team, I can't speak for the workload, but I think it may make sense.12:09
DktrKranzI think they focus on two separate worlds12:09
DktrKranzso, merge them could not be a good choice, IMHO12:10
dholbach"it's all about patches..."12:10
\shthere is a difference between UVF and SRU at distro level....SRUs are more difficult to decide, so we need people who know what they are doing...UVF for universe is just a bit more harmless12:10
sorenThe skillset required is pretty much the same: Evaluate proposed changes based on policies for the given point in the release cycle, but if it's going to be a blocker for finding volunteers, it's not that important to me.12:10
TheMusoBut I'm willing to defer to those with more experience.12:10
persiasoren: The skillset is the same, but the criteria are different.12:11
sorenpersia: Sure.12:11
dholbachbut I agree, it might make sense to keep them separate as the workflow is different and it might turn out to be a bottleneck12:11
sistpoty|workI'd rather have these teams separated, because it's more clear then what bugs are sru bugs and what uvf bugs12:11
\shsoren, one difference is there: with UVF exceptions you don't break older releases12:11
soren\sh: I know, I know.12:11
dholbachok, let's keep them different for now then12:11
persiaIf someone wants to do both, I don't see a problem with them being on two teams, I just don't want to confuse things.12:11
dholbach[AGREED] ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.12:11
MootBotAGREED received:  ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.12:11
sistpoty|workpersia: yes12:11
Hobbseeif -uvf and -sru get merged, i'm not being a part of -uvf12:11
persiaHobbsee: They won't be: see above :)12:12
dholbach[TOPIC] Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)12:12
MootBotNew Topic:  Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)12:12
pittidholbach: both teams can still share members, after all12:12
dholbach\sh: your stage12:12
\shit's me :)12:12
dholbachpitti: exactly12:12
Hobbseepersia: i was lagged.  compiz crashed :)12:12
dholbachmore emblems! :)12:12
pittibut separating the roles might be beneficial indeed, yes12:12
* persia likes emblems12:12
persiaAnyway:  \sh?12:12
sorens/emblems/pieces of flair/12:12
* sistpoty|work looks innocent about the motu-swat icon *g*12:12
\shok, what we need are some more people doing also the non loved security fixes for universe especially for our LTS release (speak dapper) and also for older releases like feisty  and gutsy12:12
\shwhen I saw the list of CVEs for universe I was surprised to see more SRUs without really serious bug fixes like vulnerabilities12:13
dholbach\sh: is there a list of things that need doing?12:13
persia\sh: Are you recruiting now, or is there something else for discussion?12:13
dholbach\sh: is there some documentation for those tasks?12:13
\shpersia, it's something for discussion12:13
\shdholbach, 1) kees has a list of CVEs which are still not fixed12:14
dholbach\sh: is this list publically available?12:14
\shdholbach, 2) well it's most likley source work12:14
sistpoty|work\sh: in the past, the security policy was a bit unclear to me, as at least in some cases fixes more than to the actual security fix were accepted. is this still the case?12:14
\shdholbach, sure...people.ubuntu.com/~kees/ubuntu-cve12:14
dholbach\sh: would it help to have a section on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO with a link and what's expected of people interested in doing this?12:14
soren\sh: 40412:15
dholbachI'm happy to pimp that section and inform people about it12:15
\shsoren: moment12:15
* Fujitsu arrives.12:15
\shsoren, damn..it's deleted :(12:15
Fujitsusistpoty|work: As far as I know that's forbidden and keescook will eat you alive if you try.12:15
FujitsuFor good reason.12:15
\shdholbach, would be nice..I'll provide some infos what to do...mostly it's nothing for starters12:15
dholbachalso maybe it'd help to have public meetings with all the security folks to invite new people and assign tasks12:16
sistpoty|workFujitsu: ok, great12:16
DktrKranz\sh, what about http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/ubuntu-cve/ ?12:16
FujitsuDktrKranz: That's the CVE tracker spoken of.12:16
\shDktrKranz, it's old and not maintained anymore...kees took over12:16
pittiI'm not sure whether this is still relevant12:16
DktrKranzah, ok12:16
sistpoty|workis http://launchpad.net/~motu-swat/+subscribedbugs current as well?12:16
\shdholbach, would be cool...I'll provide some infos about it12:16
* pitti makes a note to talk about this with Kees and remove it if appropriate12:16
dholbach[ACTION] \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page12:16
MootBotACTION received:  \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page12:16
FujitsuOops, the *branch* in ~pitti is right, the other stuff isn't.12:16
\shsistpoty|work, yepp...but most actual is the list of our main security team...because all of the sec bugs are listed there12:17
dholbach\sh: do you think it'd make sense to invite people who are interested to a meeting and discuss the topic there?12:17
\shFujitsu, it's not up2date afaik12:17
Fujitsu\sh: The branch is.12:17
sistpoty|work\sh: ah... could we auto-import bugs from that list somehow to lp?12:17
sistpoty|work(or wouldn't make that sense)12:17
persiaI think kees was planning a new interface in the next week or so12:17
soren\sh: How does this work? You submit debdiffs for the security team to look at, and if it's good, they upload?12:17
\shsoren, this is one step...12:17
persiasistpoty|work: Not everything applies: it requires human intelligence to determine the right set of releases against which to file the bug.12:18
\shsoren, you have to follow the Security Update rules first, you need to know where to grab the patches etc.12:18
\shsoren, our security team (named keescook and jdstrand) will review those patches and publishing them to our archives12:18
soren\sh: Of course. I'm just interested in the technical part of it.12:18
\sh(right now they are not publicly announced)12:18
soren\sh: Alright.12:18
dholbachthanks \sh for documenting this - I guess that's going to be a good first step - what about meetings to invite new people?12:19
\shdholbach, sure..we can do that12:19
persiaDo we need meetings?  I'd rather see recruiting mail & -classroom sessions on the workflow, personally.12:19
dholbach\sh: great - if you could collect some ideas about the meeting, I'm happy to announce to various places12:19
dholbachpersia: some people might want to ask questions, I found meetings a good opportunity to meet and talk to those people12:20
\shdholbach, will do12:20
* persia defers, but hopes this does not cause a recruiting delay12:20
\shas a note why I wanted to raise this issue12:20
dholbach[ACTION] \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks12:20
MootBotACTION received:  \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks12:20
\shI think it's important to our users and audience to show that we also take care about the security of the community driven archive12:21
dholbachthanks \sh for bringing this up12:21
\shthanks to you for your time :)12:21
sistpoty|work\sh: yes, and it's great to see the team spamming my inbox lately :)12:21
dholbach[TOPIC] Other Business12:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Other Business12:21
\shsistpoty|work, you are welcome :)12:22
dholbachgoing once... :)12:22
* Fujitsu notes he has a few more to do tomorrow.12:22
\shFujitsu, wordpress12:22
dholbachno other business?12:22
Fujitsu\sh: That's more than a few (ie. 42)12:22
* persia has a quick one12:22
dholbachpersia: fire away12:22
persiaI just want to confirm that nobody has any further planned followup to the ML threads about New Upstream Version reviews and REVU guidelines before I update the wiki.12:23
sladenhard to confirm an open-ended question.  But I haven't...12:23
\shFujitsu, yeah, a new one came yesterday or the day before ,-)12:23
persiasladen: good point.12:24
Fujitsu\sh: 6301 or so, yeah. What fun.12:24
dholbachpersia: seems that nobody in #ubuntu-meeting does :)12:24
persiaThanks.  I'll go ahead, as most of the parties with previous concerns appear to be present :)12:24
dholbachanything else before we move on?12:24
dholbach[TOPIC] agree on date and time of next meeting12:25
MootBotNew Topic:  agree on date and time of next meeting12:25
* persia proposes 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 200712:25
* TheMuso can do that.12:25
* DktrKranz too12:25
* Fujitsu can probably.12:25
* soren can't.12:25
* sistpoty|work will try but not promise12:26
persiaWe're traditionally skipped the 04:00 UTC in the rotation.  Is anyone a big fan of that time?12:26
* dholbach isn't :)12:26
sorenme neither12:26
TheMusoI am sorta, but understand that it doesn't suit most people in the states and nobody in Europe.12:27
sistpoty|workI guess it's hard to find fans for the 04:00 UTC among people currently present ;)12:28
dholbachat some stage we should discuss that on the list or have a wiki table with the timezones everybody lives in12:28
\shhmm...at 13 UTC is motu faq session, right?12:28
persiaActually, I thought it would be good for people in the Americas, as attendance at the other times seems low, but perhaps it's a demographic issue as to who participates in meetings.12:28
persiadholbach: Last time we did that, we ended up not having a MOTU meeting for a month.12:29
dholbachI think it's fine for us to stick to the time suggested, but raise the topic in a different medium than IRC :)12:29
sistpoty|workmake it so12:29
persiasistpoty|work: There weren't any fans at the last 20:00 session either.  I think 04:00 fans just don't come to meetings.12:29
dholbachalright, let's do 20:00 then12:29
FujitsuAre there any 04:00 fans?12:29
sistpoty|workpersia: hehe12:29
dholbach[AGREED] Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 200712:30
MootBotAGREED received:  Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 200712:30
TheMusoFujitsu: I am, but understand why its not accepted by others.12:30
* DktrKranz usually sleeps at 04:0012:30
TheMusoMy point exactly.12:30
dholbach[ACTION] dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table12:30
MootBotACTION received:  dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table12:30
dholbach[ACTION] agree on date and time of next REVU DAY12:30
MootBotACTION received:  agree on date and time of next REVU DAY12:30
* persia finds 04:00 convenient, but doesn't have issues with the other times.12:30
TheMusoREVU days == Mondays?12:30
dholbachshall we remove that action item from the agenda? we seem to stick to mondays anyway12:30
* persia proposes 26 November and 3 December12:30
Fujitsupersia: And very subsequent Monday until FF?12:31
\shI just got a mail that I have a day for test working for United Internet ,-)12:31
persiaI'm happy to remove it from the agenda: it's been Mondays for the past six months or so (since we added it to the agenda)12:31
persiaFujitsu: Sounds good to me.12:31
dholbachpersia: great thanks12:31
dholbachsame goes for "agree on date and time of MOTU Q&A sessions"12:31
TheMusoI think its a day that all hopefuls knwo that will get a chance at having their work looked at.12:31
dholbachit's Q&A Friday!12:31
dholbachok, looks like we're through our agenda12:32
persiaSure.  I think both of those got added to the agenda because we weren't scheduling them enough.  If we do every Monday and Friday, we should be good.12:32
dholbachpersia: great12:32
dholbachthanks a lot everybody!12:32
sistpoty|workthanks dholbach for hosting12:32
dholbachanytime :)12:32
sistpoty|work(alter! *g*)12:32
persia(except 04:00 UTC) :)12:33
dholbachyeah :)12:33
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:33.12:33
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Headers has all the "next ... is going to be at ..." headers12:33
persiadholbach: Shall we just call it Mondays for REVU, and Friday, 13:00 UTC for Q&A static then?12:34
dholbachpersia: that sounds great12:34
dholbachwe can still change it if necessary12:34
persiadholbach: Or do you want to keep it updated with the actual next one (I don't mind updating for REVU, but I might forget occasionally)12:34
dholbachno, I think a static text is OK12:35
* persia edits12:35
* dholbach hugs super-persia12:35
persiaDo we have a next scheduled Packaging 101?12:35
persiaErr.  Ignore that.12:35
* sistpoty|work needs to resume working12:36
dholbachbye sistpoty|work :)12:36
Hobbseeoh, for those who are still here...12:37
Hobbseethere's a ppa101 session on next week - if you're interested in learning about it, or being involved in it, watch the usual mailing lists for news12:37
dholbachgood point - we should pimp those sessions more12:38
persiaHobbsee: You could add it to the headers if you like: I'm done with edits.12:38
Hobbseepersia: this is true12:40
effie_jayxin 5 minutes12:55
effie_jayxhuats,  hello12:56
huatshey effie_jayx12:57
huatseffie_jayx: so how is it going ?12:59
effie_jayxhuats,  well I feel a little eager to get to work but the internet is so unreliable in this conference13:00
effie_jayxI checked out bugs yesterday13:01
effie_jayxbasically learning to find bugs that are related to problems in packages... and not just support requests13:01
effie_jayxand also learning what packages are affected by those bugs13:02
effie_jayxthen I will be able to see if the new version of the package actually provides a fix for that bug13:02
huatsplaying with bugs is COMPULSORY since we have to fix them :)13:03
effie_jayxdholbach,  ping13:05
dholbacheffie_jayx: pong13:06
effie_jayxdholbach,  is it time yet?13:06
dholbacheffie_jayx: #ubuntu-classroom13:06
=== Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== illovae is now known as illovae_
=== illovae_ is now known as illovae
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
=== _czessi is now known as Czessi
=== _czessi is now known as Czessi

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!