[04:23] <ddddd> hello a little question i can not reach art.ubuntu.com is there a good reason ?
[04:25] <ddddd> somerville32: maybe they all sleep
[04:26]  * somerville32 nods.
[13:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'm around whenever Mandarancid gets here.
[13:38] <_MMA_> Hi Mandarancid.
[13:38] <_MMA_> kwwii: ping
[13:38] <Mandarancid> Hi to all
[13:39] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: So now we have to wait for kwwii to answer.
[13:39] <Mandarancid> yes..
[13:47] <Mandarancid> Go to use xchat and not pidgin
[13:55] <kwwii> pong
[13:55] <Mandrancid> Hi kwwi
[13:56] <kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _M
[13:56] <kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _MMA_
[13:59] <Mandrancid> _MMA_??
[14:00] <kwwii> Mandrancid: can you point me to that docuement you made with idea for changes?
[14:00] <Mandrancid> I send it for mail at _MMA_
[14:00] <Mandrancid> if you want send you the mail
[14:01] <Mandrancid> else i can post it on deviantart
[14:02] <_MMA_> Im here.
[14:02] <_MMA_> (was eating)
[14:02] <_MMA_> :)
[14:03] <Mandrancid> I'm sorry :)
[14:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: I sent you the svg the other day.
[14:04] <Mandrancid> this is only some ideas to apply at my icones
[14:05] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: what do you think about it?
[14:06] <_MMA_> I like then but for Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio I would do a little modifications.
[14:06] <_MMA_> Mostly taking down the shine on the icons.
[14:06] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, can't find it for some reason
[14:06] <_MMA_> Though I like some of the reflections below the icons.
[14:07] <Mandrancid> mm what is the shine?
[14:07] <Mandrancid> (my english vocabulary is very shorts)
[14:07] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: On the icons themselves.
[14:07] <_MMA_> The "gloss"
[14:07] <Mandrancid> aaa the gloss
[14:07] <Mandrancid> ok
[14:08] <Mandrancid> isn't a problem..
[14:08] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: So my idea is if kwwii gets approval that there is your main branch, and I will have a branch and kwwii will have one.
[14:08] <kwwii> right, the highlight could be taken down a step somehow...so that they look a bit more matte
[14:08] <_MMA_> +1
[14:08] <Mandrancid> Branch??
[14:08] <kwwii> right
[14:09] <Mandrancid> what the mining of branch?
[14:09] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: You can have your version as the main one then kwwii and I will have our own versions.
[14:09] <_MMA_> But yours will be a base.
[14:09] <Mandrancid> sure
[14:09] <kwwii> so _MMA_ can make a blue version, ubuntu and orange version, etc
[14:10] <kwwii> note that using this in ubuntu depends on the decision from my boss
[14:10] <Mandrancid> Of course..
[14:11] <Mandrancid> The problem : my iconset isn't finished
[14:11] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: Sure. We can help with that also.
[14:11] <kwwii> right
[14:12] <_MMA_> If you look at a installed Tango set we can use that as a start.
[14:12] <kwwii> also I think that we will need to add a bit of contrast to some things..like the emblems and buttos
[14:12] <Mandrancid> I installed the tango icons and i resolve some naming problem (power and save icons
[14:12] <Mandrancid> )
[14:14] <Mandrancid> kwwii: mm for the buttons of the file manager i think is ok .. but is only my opinion
[14:14] <_MMA_> Cool. I like the mime-type icons. (file-types) as well as the drives and Trash. The "Computer" might be too flat for Ubuntu's look.
[14:15] <Mandrancid> yea the mimetypes must to be redisegned
[14:15] <kwwii> I am not suggesting adding and depth or 3d elements, rather just increasing the contrast of some parts
[14:15] <kwwii> s/and/any
[14:15] <_MMA_> No. I liked them. :)
[14:15] <Mandrancid> a ok
[14:15] <kwwii> making certain little parts a bit darker or lighter so they stand out a bit more, nothing radical
[14:16]  * kwwii has to check the chili cooking on the stove, brb
[14:16] <Mandrancid> Yea infact i made some different icon for computer and drivers
[14:18] <Mandrancid> I made also some applications icon (but i'm not sure of this)
[14:19] <_MMA_> I think for now we can stay away from the apps and try to work on system icons. (once/if we get approval)
[14:19] <Mandrancid> sure, the actions icon are all to do ..
[14:20] <Mandrancid> I see on the ubuntu studio artwork a set of flat icons
[14:21] <Mandrancid> but i don't find the link i would to download it..
[14:22] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: Thats a concept set that I will be putting aside for now.
[14:22] <Mandrancid> ah ok
[14:22] <Mandrancid> i love the flat icons
[14:22] <_MMA_> :)
[14:22] <_MMA_> Im actually writing a email now about changing concepts.
[14:23] <karma-ferit> so whats the new concept?
[14:23] <_MMA_> The concept looks to be too much for people to understand and all the art is on me ATM.
[14:24] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: For?
[14:24]  * _MMA_ is talking about Ubuntu Studio.
[14:24] <karma-ferit> ah ok
[14:24] <karma-ferit> i like the glossy bars :)
[14:25] <_MMA_> Thanx but its dead and wont return. ;)
[14:25] <karma-ferit> so why are you changing that concept?
[14:26] <_MMA_> Because people dont seem get it, and I'm receiving no real help. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
[14:26] <Mandrancid> and idea for computer icon http://mandarancio.deviantart.com/art/Computer-icon-m-p-70543286
[14:27] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: cool :)
[14:28] <Mandrancid> thanks
[14:28] <Mandrancid> in the download there is the svg
[14:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: What else do you have to say?
[14:30] <karma-ferit> well that is different
[14:31] <Mandrancid> ??
[14:31] <Toma-> :(
[14:31] <_MMA_> I think he's talking to me Mandrancid.
[14:31] <karma-ferit> don't think the folks that fell in love with the over glossed bars will be content with punk rock plastered on the desktop :-p
[14:31] <kwwii> well, I think that we already decided to move away from the glossy stuff unless the thing in real life is glossy
[14:31] <karma-ferit> in reference to _mma_'s links
[14:32] <Mandrancid> A good idea (i didn't like the glossy icons (but my folders are glossy))
[14:32] <kwwii> _MMA_: it is nothing personal, people want to go on and on about how we should do ubuntu and when I tell them that they could help ubuntu-studio or kubuntu or xubuntu, etc. they are suddently not interested
[14:32] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: I really dont care about the folks that fell in love with the gloss. I care about artists that get the concept helping.
[14:32] <_MMA_> Im just not getting the help.
[14:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: Oh I know how it goes.
[14:34] <karma-ferit> so no artists interested?
[14:35] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: Oh plenty of people interested and like the concept but like in Ubuntu its the rare person who actually steps up and does something.
[14:35] <_MMA_> Most people will just talk alot.
[14:35] <_MMA_> :P
[14:37] <Mandrancid> I'm making some test with my icons without glossy..
[14:38] <Mandrancid> aren't bad...
[14:39] <_MMA_> :)
[14:39] <kwwii> I think it has more to do with the fact that people do not want to follow art direction...everyone wants to do their own thing without realizing that you need several people to create a finished fully themed desktop
[14:39] <kwwii> anyway...
[14:39] <karma-ferit> so does Canonical sponsor studio ubuntu's art?
[14:39] <_MMA_> No
[14:39] <kwwii> karma-ferit: and we have no say in it what so ever
[14:40] <kwwii> the only artwork that canonical decides on and pays for is ubuntu artwork
[14:43] <Mandrancid> However if i can do anything i'll happy to do it..
[14:43] <Mandrancid> for the ubuntu art comunity
[14:44] <_MMA_> Cool. Hopefully we hear something positive from the boss. ;)
[14:44] <Mandrancid> I hope.. :)
[14:45] <Mandrancid> a curiosity:
[14:45] <Mandrancid> who is the boss??
[14:45] <_MMA_> Mark S.
[14:45] <kwwii> mark shuttleworth
[14:46] <karma-ferit> sabdfl
[14:46] <_MMA_> And then kwwii (Ken) when it comes to the art.
[14:46] <Mandrancid> he  is the boss of all ubuntu.. and hi decide also for the art??
[14:47] <karma-ferit> _MMA_: so you do the studio ubuntu's artwork, its rather good
[14:47] <darkmatter> he has the final say, yes
[14:47] <darkmatter> Mandrancid: ^
[14:48] <Mandrancid> the boss??
[14:48] <darkmatter> yup
[14:48] <Mandrancid> interesting
[14:48] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: Yes. I had more help with Feisty though.
[14:49] <karma-ferit> ah ok
[14:51] <karma-ferit> who else helps now?
[14:52] <_MMA_> Well some things are in a holding pattern till we get the word from Mark.
[14:53] <_MMA_> So we'll see who steps up after that.
[14:54] <hbons> this boss thing creeps me out:P
[14:54] <_MMA_> There's always a boss.
[14:55] <hbons> not when you are one
[14:57] <darkmatter> hbons: thats one of the things I like about how suse is handling things now. they have a small council that actually *votes* ;P
[14:57] <kwwii> lol, even on the artwork?
[14:58] <darkmatter> kwwii: I believe so.. let me check again
[14:58] <kwwii> they just tried to have something like our community council
[15:00] <kwwii> anyway.../me finished cooking chili
[15:01]  * _MMA_ goes to write emails.
[15:04]  * Mandrancid no glossy icons test finished
[15:04] <_MMA_> Ill take a look if you want.
[15:05] <Mandrancid> _MMA_:ok i mod only folder categories and some actions
[15:05] <_MMA_> ok
[15:05] <Mandrancid> I'll send it email
[15:05] <troy_s> and look
[15:05] <troy_s> suse's work sucks
[15:05] <troy_s> lol
[15:06] <troy_s> darkmatter: You should be able to see the clear hideous implications on anything innovative / progressive when it comes to voting.
[15:07] <darkmatter> troy_s: indeed. but even though its a roadblock it still has better results than the "mark method" ;)
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: Unless the voting party is extremely creative oriented with an agenda for new concepts, I can only imagine that voting would result in utter 'tow the line-itus'
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: That is only because Mark has no clue.
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: And SUSEs work is _awful_.
[15:07] <darkmatter> troy_s: my point exactly :P
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: Heck, SUSE and Fedora 8 are both ghastly returns to uber-conservativism and monochromatism.
[15:08] <Mandrancid> _MMA_ : i must convert all resolution, you must wait  a moment..
[15:08] <darkmatter> troy_s: well. no argument. but still less hideous than ubuntu's defaults
[15:08] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: No problem. Ill be around.
[15:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: Arguably they are one and the same now -- there is nothing compelling about any of those key three -- and their market shares reflect that.
[15:10] <darkmatter> lol
[15:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is especially relevant at this point because Ubuntu is very clearly an option for average desktop users in many respects.
[15:12] <darkmatter> troy_s: aye. same applies to suse and fedora (simplify --> mainstream effect). I say all the artists involved in FOSS (the good ones) should just stage a coup ;)
[15:12] <andreasn> hm, what's the discussion?
[15:13] <darkmatter> andreasn: ugly uber conservative drab art n design
[15:13] <andreasn> ok
[15:13] <Mandrancid> _MMA_ done
[15:13] <_MMA_> ok
[15:17] <troy_s> darkmatter: The default snoring single colour tone with no emotional connection is byproduct of completely misplaced belief structures.  Hell... even Apple added colour to their default desktop (as well as worked around a motif this time etc.)
[15:17] <darkmatter> troy_s: there is one thing that drives me nuts even more than the drab themes/engine... desktop background. make it art. I dont care if its a well composed photo or a painting. but DAMNIT! no more blurry "wtf is that", aqua=die, so on and soforth
[15:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yes, again the uberconservativism.  Photos can be a step up, but in many respects they tend to end up being musak.
[15:19] <andreasn> darkmatter: did you file a bug regarding nautilus borders yet? I'm about to file one if not. Just wanted to check so I don't do a duplicate.
[15:19] <darkmatter> andreasn: no. not yet (havent even found the disc with my patch :/)
[15:19] <darkmatter> have a ball :)
[15:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: It seems that people who 'choose' desktop design patterns enjoy the musak.  Metallica, U2, Radiohead all have made millions and ended up with a pretty significant audience.  At no point did they ever make musak-equivalent musical decisions.
[15:20] <darkmatter> troy_s: yup
[15:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: Did you know that in the early days of record albums, all albums looked the same?
[15:21] <darkmatter> yup
[15:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is a very interesting comparison to computing environments (well aside from people only TWO albums really in our world).
[15:22] <troy_s> "seeing"
[15:22] <troy_s> lol
[15:22] <darkmatter> troy_s: I'n not really big on a lot of the kde4 art (to much influence from vista/mac), but even a half assed attempt at an identity is better than non
[15:23] <darkmatter> troy_s: lol. yeah
[15:23]  * _MMA_ can't wait to see what theme troy_s and darkmatter cook up.
[15:24] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: I got the email. Im looking now.
[15:26] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: Ok...
[15:28] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: That looks good. Maybe subtile shadows in places but the folders look good.
[15:28] <troy_s> _MMA_: Don't be knocking on my door.  I do that thanks.
[15:28] <_MMA_> If we get the go ahead Im sure the ideas will come flying. :)
[15:28] <_MMA_> troy_s: ?
[15:30] <_MMA_> Ok. I have no clue what you mean by that vague comment.
[15:30] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: yes..
[15:31] <andreasn> darkmatter: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499361
[15:31] <ubotu> Gnome bug 499361 in Sidebar "No borders on the sidebar (and file window)" [Trivial,Unconfirmed]
[15:31] <andreasn> darkmatter: should I add you as cc?
[15:31] <darkmatter> troy_s: thats why I always had a love for beos back in the day. not because it was "the greatest thing since spilt milk" or any such nonsense, but because it actually had an *identity* that made it stand out from the crowd
[15:32] <darkmatter> andreasn: sure
[15:32] <andreasn> darkmatter: e-mail?
[15:32] <darkmatter> darkmatter333@gmail.com
[15:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: It was a 'don't pull out the 'go do something' argument' statement.  I do and I try.  Further still, there is a lot to be said for trying to track down and discuss the actual _why_ things might be wrong.  Not all of it is 100% given knowledge.
[15:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: So :P
[15:35] <andreasn> darkmatter: hm, match failed? is that your bugzilla account e-mail?
[15:35] <_MMA_> troy_s: No. It was actually genuine and I should have worded it differently.
[15:35] <darkmatter> oh crap. lol. forgot to register >_> 1 sec
[15:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Im not in that kinda mood ATM but I can go of on that tangent if you like. ;)
[15:37] <darkmatter> andreasn: try again
[15:39] <andreasn> there
[15:40] <darkmatter> :)
[15:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: LOL.
[15:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: Any nibbles on uS's pattern?
[15:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: Or more of they 'I think everything should be glossy because it was all the rage in 1981.'
[15:49] <troy_s> _MMA_: What are you playing with for backgrounds of late?
[15:49] <darkmatter> troy_s: or maybe switch the palette to bl00 and beige because it workd sooo well for xp :O
[15:50] <_MMA_> troy_s: Well I just sent a email to the list putting it on the back burner because like always people talk about helping but nobody has.
[15:50] <darkmatter> troy_s: because we all know how much you love the blue XD
[15:51] <_MMA_> Its proving too much for me to handle along with everything else. I have some backgrounds for what Im gonna do now. Pictures.
[15:51] <troy_s> _MMA_: Grr that angers me.
[15:51]  * Mandrancid away
[15:51] <_MMA_> Me too. What else can I do?
[15:51] <troy_s> _MMA_:  Grr.
[15:52] <_MMA_> Lots of talk but no _real_ help. Just lipservice.
[15:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: I need to try and get some of the other ends tied up...
[15:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: I have this bloody animatic teaser trailer that is sucking up _all_ of my time (as well as that bloody music video).
[15:53] <troy_s> _MMA_: Not to mention the time sunk into Mythbuntu's now naught campaign.
[15:53] <_MMA_> I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that.
[15:53] <troy_s> _MMA_: Not quite, but I can imagine.
[15:54] <troy_s> _MMA_: I know _Toma_ was working on some stuff at some point.  He was asking about how to get the distressed look etc.
[15:54] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanarts/380319297/
 I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that. <-- yeah. its sitting on a cd somewhere's 3/4 finished because shit happens when you get rushed to the hospital :)
[15:55] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. Some walls but he wasnt generating alot. I think he has other things to do.
[15:56] <_MMA_> darkmatter: And then you never got back to me did you? I left you messages and everything. I can only ask so much.
[15:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: How is your thing-that-shall-remain-nameless of late?
[15:57] <_MMA_> But really, I ain't sore. You guys are big boys and can do what you want. I'll do what I have to.
[15:57] <troy_s> _MMA_: On a side note, have you tried 'glest'.
[15:57] <_MMA_> troy_s: Yep. 'tis fun.
[15:58] <troy_s> _MMA_: Pretty tight delivery too.
[15:58] <_MMA_> I havnt had time to get through it but Ive heard its pretty short.
[15:58] <_MMA_> But yeah. It looks good and was fun to play.
[15:59] <troy_s> yeah... i was rather impressed with their presence.  it is pretty tight (but seems to err on the 'we make things small like enlightenment' look for everything lol)
[15:59] <darkmatter> _MMA_: well. considering when I got back from sick-time and logged on irc I no longer had access to -dev it seemed rather pointless. just like discussing now is rather pointless :)
[15:59] <darkmatter> troy_s: glest rocks.
[16:00] <darkmatter> to bad there's only two factions and once you beat or get beaten the games pretty much done
[16:00] <_MMA_> darkmatter: Oh excuses. I'm still in other channels with you. But yeah..
[16:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: (Popping in and out of the keyboard here) Window deco -- have you tried your carbon fiber / diagonal lines repeating?
[16:12] <_MMA_> No, because I'm only really good with tinkering with XML. I dont know how to do something pixmap.
[16:31] <troy_s> _MMA_: Hrm... I have some cututs (and a script if you design the window in one of my templates)
[16:31] <troy_s> _MMA_: Would that help you?
[16:33] <_MMA_> Ill look at it for sure but really Im so disheartened its gonna take real help from others to work on the DIY stuff again.
[16:33] <_MMA_> I sent you a PM with the Alt stuff I was looking at.
[16:34] <troy_s> _MMA_: Great.
[16:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: I have a metacity session pending as I need to try some experiments that kwwii and I have chundered about.
[16:36] <_MMA_> k
[16:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: When I sit down to do that eventually, I'll try to hammer out the diagonal lines look
[16:36] <troy_s> (which I could easily see becoming a 'trend')
[16:37] <troy_s> the repeating lines with gradients that O2's Pineherioioio likes so much could very well stick as a trend.  Although the blue wallpaper that the contest results showed is horribly composed, the 'essence' of the look could easily become a trend.
[16:37] <darkmatter> troy_s: they are a trend in windowblinds ;O
[16:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Hrm... the repeating lines?
[16:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Interesting... links?
[16:39] <darkmatter> troy_s: carbon-fiber-ish? if so yeah. hold for a sec. I'll pop on devart
[16:43] <ddddd> why can i not reach art.ubuntu.com ?
[16:44] <_MMA_> I think its being worked on.
[16:45] <ddddd> you think or are you sure ? because the xubuntu/artwork wiki links to it but dead links aren't very useful
[16:46] <_MMA_> They will be useful once the site is up. Thats the plan as I recall.
[16:47] <ddddd> ok thanks a lot
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: Dead links are a byproduct of 'construction'.
[16:49] <darkmatter> troy_s: meh. devart search feature suck. but if you wanna piss around theres a fairly large amount of carbon fibrous themes on the various customization sites.
[16:49] <kwwii> art.ubuntu.com is in code review
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: They will be dead after upgrade
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: As a new system is going into place
[16:49] <kwwii> so once the security guys check it out it will be up
[16:50] <kwwii> but all those links will no longer work, they point to the old site
[16:50] <troy_s> (probably to be neglected like the last three times people have insisted on getting it up)
[16:50] <ddddd> this site will be replaced ?
[16:51] <ddddd> what is the new site url ?
[16:51] <kwwii> ddddd: it is coming back, yes but in a different form
[16:51] <kwwii> it is not up yet
[16:51] <kwwii> and with that, I am off to the bar - have a nice evening everyone
[16:52] <ddddd> but the url will be the same /
[16:52] <ddddd> ?
[16:53] <kwwii> yes it will still be at art.ubuntu.com
[16:53] <kwwii> but all the old pages will be gone, we are starting fresh
[16:53] <kwwii> for what it is worth
[16:53] <kwwii> anyway, I am out of here
[16:53] <ddddd> ok so i can leave the url in the wiki thanks
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: its a wiki
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: do what you want
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: to be fair, that site has _never_ been a good source of work.
[17:02] <troy_s> ddddd: arguably gnome-look, kde-look, and compiz-look have far more selection
[17:02] <TheSheep> sigh
[17:03] <TheSheep> why people can't keep old url actual after upgrad
[17:03] <TheSheep> ee
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: You mean links?
[17:03] <TheSheep> ever heard of redirects and rewrites? :/
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yuck.
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Give google a week and it updates.
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Talk about legacy links, and for what?
[17:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: what about all the sites that linked there?
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: It was mostly junk.
[17:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: *everything* is mostly junk
[17:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well themes on gnome-look go up and down, I can't expect any dynamic site to keep links.
[17:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: It seems like a waste of time.
[17:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's two lines in apache config
[17:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: or any other web server
[17:05] <darkmatter> troy_s: another thing I can see becoming trendy (been thinking of it since I want to move away from the window analogy with my current project) is *basically* a picture frame
[17:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: just give a '301 Moved permanently' response
[17:08] <ddddd> yes it is very strange not to get a message like this site is under heavy construction
[17:09] <troy_s> ddddd: Well it _is_ free software -- feel free to step up and help out Nuzum.
[17:10] <troy_s> (although granted, a good portion of Ubuntu has process before one can 'help out' -- and for good reason)
[17:12] <ddddd> the people who are able to setup art.ubunntu.com are skilled enough to make an error/info/redirect page !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[17:12] <troy_s> darkmatter: The only serious and significant effect / impact that someone can creat 'trend' out of is looks though.  Those repeating lines have a very 'neato' feel to them if applied to an interesting concept.
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: Will you settle down.  It isn't like art.ubuntu.com was a well used site.
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: it had a few hits (probably googling ubuntu but I don't have analytics for it)
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: It is really a moot point.
[17:15] <ddddd> because of bad advertisement on ubuntu.com ? or because there are better sites already up then better stop the site and focus on those
[17:16] <troy_s> ddddd: Because Ubuntu is _huge_
[17:18] <troy_s> ddddd: And there are a lot of 'tendrils' that a few people need to keep up on.  Nuzum is a VERY busy guy and has better things to worry about than _that_ low level detail.  That said, a polite email to him would probably have resulted in such a page.  Of course, if you do a little Googling, you might find out how _who_ was responsible for the site, _who_ can implement the change, and _how_ to contact that person.
[17:18] <troy_s> ddddd: And yes, for all of those reasons it is a moot point.  art.ubuntu.com gets hits PURELY because it has Ubuntu in it.  Not because it was terribly useful.
[17:19] <troy_s> ddddd: This is all said _not_ to poo poo on your parade.  A polite letter to Nuzum and you might get a redirect.  You might not -- he is a helluva busy guy.
[17:20] <troy_s> ddddd: Honestly though, what good is a redirect when the site has very little of worth on it to begin with?
[17:29] <dddd1> (06:18:10 PM) ddddd: and the development of default artwork for the distribution release takes already place on the wiki was my last message connection broken :-(
[17:33] <dddd1> troy_s: want discuss it further ?
[17:41] <troy_s> dddd1: Nothing to discuss.
[17:42] <troy_s> dddd1: Design is a _BIG_ deal, and is overseen / steered / ruled upon / by elements outside our control.
[17:44] <troy_s> dddd1: The design of the default look is not even really anything that could be considered a process or otherwise.  It is a decree based upon last minute decisions.
[17:48] <_MMA_> Um... WTF? http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/11/mpaa_university_toolkit_opens_1.html?nav=rss_blog
[17:49] <_MMA_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2007-November/004755.html
[17:54] <dddd1> i understand it is ok but i can't see a good reason for art.ubuntu.com to exist because non default artwork goes to http://www.gnome-look.org/ and at this moment all development ideas and stuff for default artwork goes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?action=show&redirect=ArtworkTeam
[17:55] <_MMA_> dddd1: Im sorry but you're a little late on this topic. I believe its been discussed at length on the ML and here.
[17:56] <_MMA_> Users wanted art.ubuntu.com.
[17:56] <dddd1> it is ok
[17:59] <dddd1> 1 last question is this site only for ubuntu or also for kubuntu xubuntu and so on ?
[17:59] <_MMA_> I would figure for all.
[17:59] <dddd1> ok
[17:59] <_MMA_> I didnt get an impression otherwise.
[18:00] <dddd1> i ll wait and see when the site is up and running
[18:05] <troy_s> dddd1: It is intended for all, however it inevitably ends up neglected.  This is the third or fourth incarnation.
[18:06] <troy_s> dddd1: I have long been a proponent of abandoning it.  It is 1) more effort (maintain with folks who are already busy) 2) Ends up with little to no content other than the setup 3) adds little use other than fracturing the already fractured design / look / theme site cascade.
[18:06] <troy_s> but alas, it is not my decision.
[18:06] <troy_s> it seems the people with the wonderful ideas of keeping it in motion like to push status quo.
[18:12] <TheSheep> reinventing the wheel, sigh
[18:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: isn't it mostly the "we want our own" attitude?
[18:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yep!
[18:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: I actually thought Mark's blog comment on 'secret is merging' is really really astute.
[18:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would love to see the core of K and G put their genius minds together and come up with something spectacular and 'center'
[18:13] <TheSheep> I remember when everyone tried to 'make their own wiki' and everyone tried to make it an encyclopedia
[18:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: I also firmly believe that diversity is a keystone of health, but certain things aren't that different that they would require a full 'let's do this solo' approach.
[18:13] <TheSheep> fortunately most of them died off
[18:13] <troy_s> lol
[18:13] <troy_s> Yeah they all did.
[18:14] <troy_s> It happens.  Nevermind the Google clones, the Digg clones, the Next-Hot-Item clone as though clones (read lack of 'new' or 'innovation') EVER work once there is an exemplary site.
[18:14] <dddd1> there is an option to reach more people about this kind of decisions there are several teams on launchpad with members like "ubuntu artwork team" "ubuntu users" "xubuntu artwork team" "xubuntu users" etc. and there is also a poll option on launchpad you see the potentional of this ?
[18:15] <TheSheep> it's always like that: one brilliant idea, followed by lots of forks exploring the problem space with, followed by few workable designs surviving
[18:15] <troy_s> (or anything for that matter -- hell -- did glossy ever work for any design after Apple's?)
[18:15] <troy_s> dddd1: A lot of the 'decisions' you mention are nothing of the sort.
[18:15] <TheSheep> dddd1: what has poll to design? %)
[18:16] <troy_s> dddd1: That's the problem.  People misconstrue Free Software as democracy.  It is a very real _working_ democracy -- there are parties and power interest groups.  Democracy works by involvement and politicking with those parties.
[18:16] <dddd1> no more about decisions on the infrastructure like what they use now and if they want to change
[18:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's doocracy
[18:16] <troy_s> dddd1: There is only one 'infrastructure' that powers all of Ubuntu.  That is Launchpad / Bazaar.
[18:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: There is a good deal of democracy in terms of political camps and alignments.
[18:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not strictly about 'voting' of course.
[18:17] <TheSheep> troy_s: "vote with your code" I say :D
[18:17] <troy_s> dddd1: What 'outside' folks fail to understand is that the devs don't bother with forums and they don't care.  Launchpad / Bazaar is the driving force.
[18:18] <dddd1> yes and you can use poll with good questions to get answers from more people then on the mailing list
[18:18] <TheSheep> dddd1: abundance of answers is a problem rather than solution
[18:18] <troy_s> dddd1: And well, as anyone who has ever tried to track things would quickly realize, it is a nightmare reading forums, keeping up on mailing lists, keeping up on realtimezone IRC, keeping up on outside news, AND trying to factor in career, family, and normalcy.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about polls?
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: In the end, Free Software is driven by users.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Users who also happen to create the bits they use.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Everyone else simply doesn't matter in the scope.
[18:20] <dddd1> i mean to use polls to get info for directions to go not let the poll make the decision
[18:20] <TheSheep> o/~ "join our stall, make software, you'll be free" o/~
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about directions?  Anyone who cares learns how to do it themselves.
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: WORSE
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: Is you have people giving 'directions' with no experience, credibility, merit, nor education.
[18:22] <troy_s> dddd1: Even someone with the inability to code might be able to create credible documentation / design blueprints / animatic mocks / etc.
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: And if they don't have the care or desire to put in that effort, then should they really have a say in anything?
[18:23] <dddd1> that is wrong thinking because you can choose the teams related with it --- time to eat --
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: It works _wonderfully_ now.  The major problem with Ubuntu has very little with the technological development.
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: It is the fastest growing distribution.  It has worldwide support.  It has a decent degree of momentum and uptake.
[18:24] <troy_s> dddd1: Arguably where it is weakest is in the outward presentations and other apparently 'simple trivial' things such as marketing emotional connection, branding, etc.
[18:24] <TheSheep> marketing :(
[18:25] <TheSheep> marketing is the science of making happy people miserable
[18:25] <dddd1> mark -e thing
[18:26] <TheSheep> then again, one cannot live without it
[18:26] <dddd1> marketing is for bussiness not for me
[18:27] <TheSheep> dddd1: no, it's everywhere
[18:27] <TheSheep> dddd1: those polls you mention are marketing too
[18:27] <dddd1> uh oh
[18:27] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sad you feel that way.
[18:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing is tightly bound to design -- it is the entire process of making people happy and creating an emotional attachment to a product / output.
[18:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: there is also markeying of already designed products
[18:29] <troy_s> dddd1: Marketing / design is for everyone.  Apple uses marketing twofold -- they generate new users AND they re-invigorate brand loyalty / attachment / emotional connections with their exisiting users.
[18:29] <dddd1> talking about democracy and power all my dutch xubuntu documentation is deleted didnt fit in the view of the documentation team
[18:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sure... but even Free Software 'marketing' (closer to politicking) does this to generate the 'next version'.
[18:29] <troy_s> dddd1: It happens.
[18:30] <troy_s> dddd1: The 'marketing' team is at least as broken as the artwork team in terms of 'fitting in'.
[18:30] <dddd1> i do not care about it they get old questions in the forum agan
[18:30] <troy_s> dddd1: Worse, there is a high ranking person who is a member of the 'marketing' team.
[18:30] <TheSheep> troy_s: both marketing and design have the 'information gathering' and 'requirement research' phases, that's why they are similar
[18:31] <dddd1> i focus now on the english part of xubuntu
[18:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: you can design for marketing, of course
[18:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Worse is when Marketing and Design are two different 'things' -- the presentation is completely fractured.  I would give props to Apple for unifying that end of things.
[18:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: In fact, as much as I have an ethical problem with Apple (and a huge awful hate of all wet floor reflections ;) ), they do _much_ very well.
[18:32] <troy_s> dddd1: Your best bet is to make alliances with the people who matter, if that is your cup of tea.
[18:32] <TheSheep> troy_s: if 'selling' your product is one of the design goals, then you need to design with marketing. if there are other goals, you need to design with those other processes in mind.
[18:32] <troy_s> dddd1: The heavy hitters -- the folks who make the changes -- can have a good impact.
[18:32] <dddd1> it is like old closed unix with a design
[18:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: For us, 'selling' (as much as it is free) is vital in my eyes.  We need new users / popularity / etc. for survival.  Look at AWN for example.
[18:33] <dddd1> i now first ask then write :)
[18:33] <TheSheep> dddd1: I wouldn't call unix 'closed', it was viewed as anarchistic at the time it was created. extremely so.
[18:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: to resolve the bug #1, eh? :)
[18:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[18:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing / Design / etc is now the _sole_ glaring hole in Free Software.  The developers are top shelf.  The application design architecture is AWFUL (layered approach to accommodate different user levels might be more versatile) and the ability of the 'designers' is ...
[18:34] <dddd1> unix is closed gnu+linux is open isnt it
[18:34] <troy_s> dddd1: Unix is a trademarked term.
[18:34] <dddd1> ok
[18:34] <troy_s> dddd1: You can't use it in public without paying for it (as Apple did)
[18:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: it become a 'standard' much much later
[18:35] <TheSheep> dddd1: 'closed' in what sense? it's based on open standards and is extensible
[18:35] <dddd1> ok i have understand it wrong then
[18:35] <troy_s> As of 2007, the owner of the trademark UNIX® is The Open Group, an industry standards consortium. Only systems fully compliant with and certified to the Single UNIX Specification qualify as "UNIX®" (others are called "Unix system-like" or "Unix-like").
[18:35] <troy_s> Wikipedia
[18:36] <troy_s> dddd1: It _was_ completely owned and patented by AT&T
[18:36] <_MMA_> I think Apple just got that cert actually.
[18:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's politics and marketing
[18:36] <dddd1> so i was right but it changed
[18:36] <_MMA_> (off topic)
[18:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah I don't know.  I seem to remember reading about them paying for it, but that may have been misinformation.
[18:37] <dddd1> this is offtopic yes but it is not bizzy
[18:37] <troy_s> _MMA_: I am unaware of the politcal structure of 'the open group' and even their name scares me.
[18:37] <_MMA_> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9048102
[18:38] <troy_s> Their members include a range of IT buyers and vendors as well as government agencies, for example Capgemini, Fujitsu, Hitachi, HP, IBM, NEC, US Department of Defense, NASA and others.
[18:38] <troy_s> :)
[18:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: That's what I was afraid of.
[18:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: no MPIAA? ewww ;)
[18:39] <troy_s> It isn't a group at all, it is a consortium of commercial entities.
[18:39] <troy_s> Which is probably the reason that having Unix circle c by your name is nothing more than a rubber stamp of political alignment.
[18:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: there are laws about using unix-compliant systems in government and so on
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's why they tried so hard with Windows NT
[18:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: IIRC a significant US military branch uses a custom security heavy version of Linux.  So that would extend to 'unix-like' systems.  Probably POSIX.
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: linux is not posix
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: for the same reason why it's not unix
[18:42] <TheSheep> actaully isn't it the same?
[18:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: No
[18:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Unix(C) is supposed to be Posix++.
[18:45] <TheSheep> well, linux is neither
[18:45] <dddd1> posix cost money isnt it
[18:46] <dddd1> the certificate
[18:46] <TheSheep> yeah, MS threw a lot to make the standards that Windows NT didn't comply with "optional" in POSIX :)
[18:47] <dddd1> i read about on a bash howto and ifo page
[18:47] <TheSheep> every time a working group didn't agree to accept it, it was dissolved immediately and formed anew, without the members who disagree
[18:47] <TheSheep> it was just beautiful
[18:54] <dddd1> is there a seperate gobuntu artwork wiki or will it be created by the ubuntu artwork team ?
[18:55] <dddd1> and goes non default gobuntu artwork also to the new art.ubuntu website ?
[18:56] <dddd1> and is there also a launchpad gobuntu artwork team now or in the future ?
[19:17] <nothlit> the NSA doesn't comment on their selinux use or lack of, all the acknowledge is creating it
[19:18] <nothlit> troy_s: btw http://www.vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckImage.php
[19:19] <nothlit> troy_s: do you have the blender links i gave you for nox, the mats and stuff? i can't find where i stuffed them
[19:19] <troy_s> nothlit: Somehwere in my mail yes.
[19:20] <troy_s> nothlit: That's a handy little thing.  Not of relevance for most of my work as I am unfortunately developing for average sighted folks
[19:21] <nothlit> troy_s: email? i meant the example links i gave in -devel
[19:21] <troy_s> nothlit: Yeah I think I have the bulk of your samples in email and the links were in a tomboy arch.
[23:51] <Viper550> hey