[00:06] <kwwii> definitely
[00:06] <troy_s> kwwii: In the Ubuntu climate, that is a tricky road.  A veritable army would have a fight.
[00:07] <kwwii> or a good core of decent like-minded people who have the "right idea"
[00:07] <kwwii> if what we are trying to achieve was easy everyone would be doing it
[00:07] <troy_s> kwwii: At least the same goals doesn't hurt.  I wouldn't expect that there would be fewer arguments or artsy fartsy debates -- but nor would I think that was healthy if there wasn't.
[00:08] <troy_s> kwwii: Exactly.
[00:08] <troy_s> kwwii: In fact, _very_ few companies get it and do it.  Those that do, are in the handful of Fortune 500 members generally.
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: Hell... even the most powerful company in the world (at least a year ago) was not the 'ideal' -- MS.
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: I fear that a good portion of what happens in art / design land in our world is crippled by looking to other examples of operating systems, as opposed to looking to what the 'bigger picture' reveals.
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: Worse, they look to other distributions (yikes).
[00:10] <kwwii> even though MS is so big I really think that we can beat them at the game, depending on how much freedom we get to really change things
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: I will hand Apple full credit -- they carry on their _own_ path.
[00:10] <kwwii> we have to fight against simply changing things for stupid reasons and also against simply staying the same as everyone else because we are afraid of change
[00:11] <kwwii> it is a fine line we walk and we have to do it almost perfectly for it to work correctly or even happen at all
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: Beating MS isn't an issue really -- they aren't a viable 'target' in terms of art / design / presence.  Hitting that mainstream recognition as doing something innovative in design would be the ultimate accolade.
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: And completely +1 from me.
[00:12] <kwwii> if we do not have this figured out by hardy or hardy+1 we will simply start to loose the game, no matter what we do
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: That sums it up -- changing everything to get to exactly where we are is useless (especially if it just ends up a blue version of what we have for example)
[00:12] <kwwii> exactly
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: Getting it figured out is one thing, executing it is another.  It's a helluva lot of work, though granted, being the flagship tends to generate laborers faster.
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: As I see it, FOSS and in particular Ubuntu -- with a six month cycle, has a very real chance to set an art and design pace.
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: We could be on the bleeding edge of style with almost every release.
[00:13] <kwwii> I'd like to see how many really good people come onboard willing to work in one direction, until now it seems everyone wants to do their own thing or nothing
[00:14] <kwwii> but maybe I am being too negative
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Well to be 100% fair, that isn't because of the people.  That again points towards the top of the pile.
[00:14] <kwwii> and perhaps the whole situation is because of the situation
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Without a clear direction and clear outlines etc., people just carry on.
[00:14] <kwwii> exactly
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: And yes, it is damn hard to do anything that anyone out in real world land would care about if we are stuck with some of the hideous decisions on KDE / GNOMEs behalf etc.
[00:15] <kwwii> hehe, full ack
[00:15] <troy_s> kwwii: Not to mention our own 'internal' issues. (you know what one ahem ones i mean)
[00:15] <kwwii> old valdemort and his funky ideas
[00:16] <troy_s> well... read zero ideas
[00:16] <kwwii> in case of doubt, just keep doing the same as before
[00:16] <kwwii> we understand each other
[00:16] <troy_s> kwwii: I have no clue what is going on there.
[00:17] <troy_s> kwwii: Oh I understand, as I have had long discussions with yewhoshallremainnameless.
[00:17] <troy_s> kwwii: The 'cronyitus' isn't helping matters either.
[00:17] <kwwii> yeah, although that is the lesser of the evils without a new idea which really could work
[00:18] <kwwii> if we form a really good idea and it gets shot down I'll start looking for another job really quickly
[00:18] <troy_s> kwwii: Lol.
[00:18] <kwwii> as I have said before, we will either create the best stuff I have ever worked on or the last stuff I work on for this company
[00:19] <troy_s> kwwii: Well whatever.  Either that or tow the line yet one more round of 'Ubuntu -- nasty design but keeps growing!'
[00:19] <kwwii> we really have a chance to take a step forward, not doing so would be simply stupid
[00:19] <troy_s> kwwii: My two main issues right now are probably 1) style and 2) interface
[00:20] <kwwii> my biggest fear is that the decision will go to: do the same but somehow slightly different so that we can change things in the future
[00:20] <kwwii> the interface is a big problem as we need more devs to really change things
[00:20] <kwwii> and we are tied to upstream
[00:20] <troy_s> 1) in an ideal world it would be wonderful to actually capture some of the contemporary design trends in the design (after all, it is only for 6 months) of which there are say -- five 'big' trends maybe 10?
[00:20] <troy_s> 2) interface is nasty hard to dev -- pixmap engine would let a mock get done
[00:21] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt...6 months and we make the world out of it
[00:21] <troy_s> but the doing of something that moves forwards and looks good is well... just bloody hard.
[00:21] <kwwii> an icon set takes 2-3 years to get done enough to really use, and it is still not done
[00:21] <kwwii> the short cycle is a big hindrance
[00:22] <troy_s> Ubuntu should feel _elegant_ like a piece of handcrafted furniture... tango, gtk engines, etc all seem mired in this glut of heavy handed outlining.
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Icon set is overrated.
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Hell... take Leopard for example -- they get the keystones in place and quit worrying.
[00:22] <nothlit> forget about the icon set, you can wow people regardless, look @ f7
[00:22] <kwwii> yeah, but they owned everything before hand
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: The tango obsession with getting every single icon done is well... flakey in my personal opinion.  It would never be done and even if it did, is it worth it?
[00:23] <troy_s> nothlit: complete +1
[00:23] <kwwii> yeah, both of you are right
[00:23] <troy_s> nothlit: By the way, diana is working at a video game company in california now.
[00:23] <kwwii> hehe, good for her
[00:23] <kwwii> she might just have more control of things now
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: In the end, we just look at the bigger picture and see what say, an audience member sees --
[00:24] <kwwii> the new canonical desktop dev knows the new girl at redhat
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Folders, interface icons, and say the glyphs for status.
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Red Hat is done.
[00:24] <kwwii> the toolbar icons are the most important and hardest part
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: They had their run, and they should have given the keys to Diana.
[00:24] <darkmatter> troy_s: lol. the whole "give me two crayons, one light, one dark, and I'll make ye icons!" tango thing is infesting the ffx3 nightlies too
[00:24] <kwwii> a lot of those metaphors are really hard to change without people complaining
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Well, and I say it again, isn't a metaphor dependent on culture / context/ etc?
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: There is this idea that because Apple and MS use the sames, that we should.
[00:25] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely and everyone thinks they can have their say
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: It is yet another area that eventually a project such as Ubuntu could have fully customized versions for each dependent on culture.
[00:25] <kwwii> a lot of it is listening to the right people and ignorning the wrong people without being wrong :-)
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: MS and Apple probably _don't_ because they don't have the resources.
[00:26] <kwwii> anyway...1:30 here almost...time for a movie and then sleep
[00:26] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely ture
[00:26] <kwwii> true
[00:26] <troy_s> (sounds silly, but getting a true 'cultural feeling' is something that perhaps only Ubuntu or like project could do.)
[00:26] <troy_s> ok... sleepy time.
[00:26]  * Toma- downloaded Fedora 7 Live just to experience the artwork
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: In the interest of not falling off the map
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: Perhaps bzr branches are a good place to start -- just make a decision and roll wth it
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: For example, the 3d etched glyphs
[00:26] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, probably a really good idea
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: You could probably start a bzr branch and get a shitload pooped out with help.
[00:27] <kwwii> it would give us the chance to make more last-minute-ish decisions
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: Myself and a few were able to palettize the entire tango icon set in a few hours.
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: I can only imagine that getting SVGs etched would be quite easy
[00:27] <kwwii> yeah, if we can get everyone working in one direction
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... 3D from Top/ Topleft light?  SVG only.  XXX resolution.  yyy grey.  highlight zzz shadow aaa.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: ?
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: If need be, add colours for the radar etc in about an hour to existing glyphs.
[00:28] <kwwii> yeah, defining it is half the problem, getting people to follow the rules and even be interested in it is the hard part
[00:28] <troy_s> (assuming colour / action comes down the pipe at some point)
[00:29] <troy_s> kwwii: Honestly, if the rules are there people will follow.  Bzr is great that way -- just merge the ones that work.
[00:29] <troy_s> lol
[00:29] <troy_s> the others are moot.
[00:29] <troy_s> in fact,
[00:29] <troy_s> as a starting point,
[00:29] <troy_s> the shapes are all already in tango in svg format.
[00:29] <troy_s> just pick the basic shape, fill, etc.
[00:29] <kwwii> yeah, you are probably right
[00:29] <troy_s> a big one might be the window decoration.  THAT one is a damn hard thing to figure out what is ... distinct and elegant.
[00:30] <troy_s> did you ever see bvc's noir?
[00:30] <kwwii> nope
[00:30] <troy_s> (not a big fan of black on the windows)
[00:30] <troy_s> let me see if i can find the link.
[00:30] <troy_s> he used oval buttons
[00:30] <troy_s> and well... they were damn distinct and quite interesting.
[00:30] <troy_s> hold tight for a second
[00:31] <troy_s> http://www.guistyles.com/wp-gallery/Noir.png
[00:31] <troy_s> now ignore the black
[00:31] <troy_s> (lol)
[00:31] <troy_s> look at the lowest right one.
[00:31] <troy_s> lowest right two
[00:31] <kwwii> yeah, using differing colors of grew to define different parts would be a great idea
[00:31] <troy_s> kwwii: See the oval?  Perhaps if we could come up with a way to get some minimize / maximize glyph?
[00:32] <kwwii> I have been thinking a lot about that recently
[00:32] <kwwii> yepp, very nice
[00:32] <troy_s> its a bundle of hard work just thinking of things that 'work'.
[00:32] <darkmatter> yay! mac rip! :O
[00:32] <troy_s> it really is.  i certainly don't profess to have any answers... so far neil patel's interface mocks were as close to good as possible.
[00:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: Options?
[00:32] <kwwii> it is even harder to get some kind of mockups done that will impress valdemort without actually getting the whole stuff done
[00:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: I find them to be away from OSX by a long way -- osx uses gems and they are round.
[00:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: Quite a different look.
[00:33] <troy_s> (the lower right ones)
[00:33] <troy_s> lol
[00:33] <troy_s> anyways,
[00:33] <troy_s> sleep on it.
[00:33] <troy_s> perhaps this week we can try and gather bits together and get something decent with regards to interface _and_ overall desktop presence.
[00:33] <troy_s> hell...
[00:34] <hbon1> oval's look hard to hit to me
[00:34] <darkmatter> troy_s: nah. 98% of the osx 3rd poarty stuff (read. themes users actually use) use the ovals. bvc is good at copying :)
[00:34] <troy_s> maybe we should just start thinking about words that the thing should communicate.
[00:34] <darkmatter> *party
[00:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well, having looked at both Leopard and Vista, those are quite distinct in the middle ground.  Vista's top notch buttons are... nasty.  Gems are done.
[00:34] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, part of it is that
[00:35] <kwwii> anyway...i am dead, see all tomorrow
[00:35] <troy_s> outs.
[00:35]  * troy_s outs as well.
[00:35] <kwwii> night man
[00:35] <kwwii> see you soon I hope
[00:35] <troy_s> night to all.
[00:35] <troy_s> who are off to bed.
[00:35] <troy_s> lol
[00:36] <troy_s> darkmatter: In the meantime, maybe mock up a series of five different buttons for a window deco?
[00:36] <troy_s> darkmatter: Surely your ocd might let you do that.
[00:36] <darkmatter> troy_s: haha. its not ocd btw
[00:37] <darkmatter> troy_s: oh.. and back to the vista buttons. that a good example of how fitts doesnt "fit"
[00:37] <darkmatter> *thats
[00:41] <nothlit> btw have you you guys seen the inkscape: inkscape mockups?
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Link!?
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Have you seen the ubersecret 3d box tool?:
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Alt-F2 -- WOW.
[00:44] <nothlit> yes, not so secret lol
[00:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Seriously, do a window deco study.  Maybe five sets?
[00:46] <troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLDtJXc8fg
[00:47] <troy_s> nothlit: Link!
[00:48] <nothlit> its glossy, but just wondering if you guys have seen them, http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/39
[00:49] <Toma-> that looks awesome (in terms of gloss)
[00:49] <nothlit> hmm, nice http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/34-- this is where svg reaches its  practical limitation imo http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/35 http://klepas.org/2007/03/05/%E2%80%9Cflying-high-fc7%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Cfedora-aurora-australis%E2%80%9D/
[00:52] <nothlit> svg is better at remixing http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/36, internationalising http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/45, scripting, animation, etc
[00:56] <hbon1> what do you guys think of tango-HiRes, does that have ubuntu potential?
[00:58] <troy_s> nothlit: That limitation is only the limit of the individual.
[00:58] <troy_s> nothlit: Honestly, you can do far better work with inkscape.
[00:58] <nothlit> troy_s: practical
[00:58] <nothlit> not theoretical =p
[00:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Practical, you can do better :)
[00:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Don't make me demo something.
[00:59] <troy_s> lol
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: The tango hi res are still lacking style.
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: And detail for that matter.
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: Unless you have links that I haven't seen.
[01:01] <hbon1> troy_s: i'm just what IS going to be the style
[01:02] <darkmatter> troy_s: that autumn plugin aint to shabby
[01:06] <darkmatter> troy_s: been planning to do some stress testing of f8's animated background. I would love to adapt it to subtle animation and traditional effects. like. have nice nature closeups )grass, leaves etc) and have the slight breeze effect, time transitions (imagine the fun you could have with lighting. the background stuff is already linked to the clock, but there's no 'good' slideshow implementations for it
[01:07] <darkmatter> *transitional
[01:10] <nothlit> for anyone else who had trouble compiling lately http://www.nabble.com/Problem-compiling-with-gcc-4.2.2-and-libsigc%2B%2B2.0-v2.1.1-tf4644075.html#a13278901
[01:11] <darkmatter> nothlit those inkscape mockups aren't to shabby
[01:15] <darkmatter> nothlit reminded me that I need to finish my graphics apps themes. (custom gtk's designed specifically to fit with the apps) basically the same approach I take too theming in general. if an app doesnt play nice with a theme or doesnt quite look right, then build an app specific gtk.rc and point the launcher to open offending app with the requisite tweak. it works flawlessly. actually creating a consistent design. but the downside is
[01:15] <darkmatter>  the theme gets HUGE
[04:14] <Burgundavia> please remember to email fridge-devel on all new meetings
[04:59] <troy_s> yeah will get right on that... *sigh*
[04:59] <troy_s> ghoooooomba
[06:46] <BHSPitMonkey> goomba?
[10:48] <kwwii> good morning all
[12:03] <lapo> hi
[16:40] <_MMA_> Anyone know where the throbber "foot" is that shows up in Nautilus?
[17:33] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. /usr/share/icons/gnome<size>/animations
[17:36] <darkmatter> _MMA_: it has the static (inactive) foot and a composite image for the animation
[17:39] <somerville32> Is anyone here interested on working on Xubuntu artwork? :]
[17:40] <_MMA_> darkmatter:  Yeah. I did finally find it. I replaced the static image but saw no change. :\
[17:41] <_MMA_> somerville32: I've seen no chat about it but Im sure if someone laid out some guidelines and spammed a couple of places *someone* would be interested.
[17:41] <darkmatter> _MMA_: did you "sudo gtk-update-icon-cache -f <path to theme>"?
[17:42]  * _MMA_ has only really had lip-service though with Ubuntu Studio though.
[17:42] <_MMA_> darkmatter: I rebooted actually. Would the command make a difference?
[17:42] <somerville32> _MMA_, Well, Jmak has been doing it all by himself for the last few releases. I don't think he particularly wants help but I think it would be nice to get some good second opinions in since we rely on his decision
[17:43] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. the icon cache doesn't auto regen
[17:43] <_MMA_> Ahh... I will do now.
[17:43] <somerville32> _MMA_, He wants to make some radical changes this release to artwork so I'm a little scarred :P
[17:43] <darkmatter> don't ask me why. its an absolutely stupis way to handle caching
[17:43] <darkmatter> *stupid
[17:44] <_MMA_> somerville32: Sure. Thats what I was hoping this time but havnt had much luck myself.
[17:44]  * _MMA_ goes to desktop for a sec.
[17:52] <_MMA_> grr... I gotta be doing something wrong.
[18:04] <darkmatter> _MMA_: still not changing the static foot?
[18:06] <_MMA_> Well I think it has to do with the image Im replacing. I think I have it.