[00:54] <jjesse> i hate house problems :(
[00:54] <Jucato> aw? what happened?
[00:54] <Jucato> and good evening jjesse
[00:54] <jjesse> good morning Jucato
[00:54] <jjesse> we have a tree in the front yard and those tree roots have cracked the pipe that leads from the house to the sewer
[00:55] <jjesse> so whenever water is run it backs up into the house from the drain
[00:55] <jjesse> so we now have to get a new pipe run (which means paying somoene to dig up our front yard)
[00:58] <Jucato> oh... :/
[00:59] <jjesse> yeah booo
[01:02] <jjesse> i love it when you ask a question from a company about something on one of their web pages and they refer you back to that same web page
[01:02] <jjesse> that doesn't have the answer you need
[01:03] <Jucato> quality customer support :)
[04:30] <Jucato> wow.. kde4 iso only finished downloading now?! :(
[04:32]  * stdin starts downloading...
[04:33] <stdin> my body clock is severely messed up....
[04:33] <Jucato> mine's totally screwed
[04:33] <stdin> I woke up at ~2am (it's 04:34)
[04:34] <stdin> and I slept for ~12 hours
[04:34] <stdin> even with several alarms going off...
[04:34] <Jucato> let's see... I usually get to sleep at around 3am... or sometimes 4am... wake up at around 8am... sleep again around 10am... up to 12noon... that was yesterday..
[04:35] <Jucato> saturday to sunday I only slept a total of 6 hours... including naps
[04:35] <Hobbsee> bad Jucato.  you're taking after me, i see.
[04:36] <Jucato> :)
[04:36] <stdin> hmm, "[22:49]  <blendtux> stdin: how much is a default kernel loaded in the ram"   < why do these people ask ME these things...
[04:37] <Jucato> because you know everything duh!
[04:37] <stdin> but, why not ask the channel?
[04:38] <stdin> and I don't really know the answer, I'd guess all of it tho
[05:49]  * nixternal loves valgrind!
[05:49]  * Jucato loves nixternal
[05:49] <Jucato> in a fraternal way :)
[05:49] <nixternal> hahaha
[05:49] <nixternal> nice try
[05:50] <Jucato> what? O.o
[05:50] <nixternal> not to shabby....only took me a few hours to complete a class implementation...and I had one hang up that was blatent, but I couldn't see it
[05:50] <nixternal> private:
[05:50] <nixternal>     int maxIndex;
[05:50] <nixternal> and then later in a member function I had
[05:50] <nixternal> int max = maxIndex;
[05:50] <nixternal> :) that won't work
[05:51] <Hobbsee> no, it wont :P
[05:51]  * Jucato scratches his head...
[05:51] <nixternal> if it was java it would of worked :)
[05:51] <nixternal> Jucato: maxIndex wasn't implemented
[05:51] <nixternal> if I had 'int maxIndex = 0;' then it would have worked
[05:51] <Jucato> oh... I thought it would have been initialized through the constructor :)
[05:51] <nixternal> not implemented, instantiated
[05:51] <nixternal> default constructor
[05:51] <Jucato> ah ok :)
[05:52] <Jucato> in that case :)
[05:52] <nixternal> I could still instantiate that way
[05:52] <Hobbsee> nixternal: oh, i was assuming you were trying to use a private variable, out of scope.
[05:52]  * Jucato headdesks until bled dry
[05:52] <Jucato> lol! different views :)
[05:52] <nixternal> Hobbsee: if my findMaxIndex() was public, then you would be correct
[05:52] <nixternal> findMaxIndex() was private as well
[05:52] <Hobbsee> oh right
[05:52]  * Hobbsee wonders why
[05:52]  * nixternal too
[05:53] <nixternal> but that is the way the class was designed
[05:53] <Hobbsee> erm, if findMaxIndex() was part of teh class, you could use the private variable.
[05:53] <Hobbsee> with it public
[05:53] <nixternal> if I used an accessor/mutator, then yes
[05:53] <nixternal> but this class has none
[05:54] <nixternal> err, ya, dunno what I was just thinkin'...it was a lonely little butterfly of an int
[05:54] <nixternal> nonetheless, totally forgot to instantiate the lil bugger
[05:54] <nixternal> valgrind came to the rescue...because it would still build fine, but it would seg fault
[05:55] <nixternal> seg fault due to maxIndex being null
[06:00]  * Jucato thinks his c++-foo doesn't even come close to average if he couldn't grok this...
[06:02]  * Hobbsee thinks it would be more helpful with the code
[06:02] <Hobbsee> you can still change private variables from the public function - you just cant change the private varialbe directly
[06:03]  * Jucato thinks he's pretty dense today...
[06:48] <stdin> kde4 live is quicker than I'd have thought :)
[06:48] <stdin> even if I did have to get a wired connection and edit the sources.list to enabel restricted then install l-r-m
[06:49]  * Jucato would love to have tested it on a real CD...
[06:49] <Jucato> alas no blanks...
[06:50] <stdin> I used a DVD
[06:50] <stdin> no blank CDs
[06:50] <stdin> (my mother stole them all)
[06:51] <Jucato> no blanks. period.
[06:51] <Jucato> not even blank bullets... :/
[06:51] <stdin> virtualbox/vmware/qemu ?
[06:52] <Jucato> vbox
[06:52] <stdin> took a while to load for me in vbox
[06:52] <stdin> *a long while
[06:52] <Jucato> long while
[06:52] <Jucato> yeah. I fell asleep
[06:52] <Jucato> j/k
[06:53] <Jucato> it looks different too...
[06:53] <Jucato> uploading screenshot
[06:56] <Jucato> http://jucato.org/stuff/kde4/kde4live.png
[06:57] <yuriy> Jucato: what's with the windeco glitchiness?
[06:57] <Jucato> vbox :)
[06:58] <Jucato> although I doubt vbox had anything to do with the Task Manager plasmoid's location :)
[07:01] <Jucato> wow so many KDE4 apps installed :)
[07:05] <stdin> bg
[07:05] <stdin> kwin --replace
[07:06]  * Jucato just closed it... :P
[07:06] <stdin> damn
[07:06] <stdin> :p
[07:06] <Jucato> but so far so good. the ISO works :)
[07:07] <stdin> well, I got kwin composite going :)
[07:07] <Jucato> something I can't do in vbox :)
[07:14] <Serega> morning, all
[07:19] <stdin> wow, only 3 crashes so far :) kwin: 1, kontify4: 2
[07:19] <Jucato> yeah knotify
[07:20] <stdin> those were the 2 things i expected to crash
[07:20] <stdin> kwin after I enabled composite anywat
[07:20] <stdin> *anyway
[07:20] <Jucato> although I haven't experienced kwin crashing yet on my lappy (from svn)
[07:21] <stdin> mine crashed just as it enabled composite, that why you saw my try to restart it before
[07:26] <stdin> time to reboot back in to kde3
[08:46] <sebastian^> good morning folks
[09:21] <Riddell> hi sebastian^
[09:40] <sebastian^> :)
[12:19] <mikkael> what is the approbiate status for this bug ? invalid ?
[12:19] <mikkael> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-style-qtcurve/+bug/135847
[12:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135847 in kde-style-qtcurve "kde style qtcurve doesnt apply changes" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[12:21] <Hobbsee> mikkael: yeah, i would
[12:21]  * Jucato waves
[12:21] <mikkael> is i right, that his ".config" folder should be owned by user ?
[12:21] <Hobbsee> yes
[12:22] <kwwii> if it is in your home, yes
[12:22] <mikkael> ah good
[12:22] <kwwii> and it sounds like an invalid bug which relates to an alpha, judging by your comment
[12:23] <mikkael> for me it was a valid bug until 10 minutes ago :D
[12:25] <mikkael> what's the package that contains the trash icon on kicker ?
[12:30] <Jucato> right-click on the panel -> Add Applet to Panel -> Trash?
[12:31] <mikkael> i mean whats the package to report a bug
[12:32] <Jucato> kicker (or kdebase)
[12:33] <mikkael> if i want to open the trash folder via this icon i get "malformed url: trash:/" error if dolphin is my file-manager
[12:37] <mikkael> on a default gutsy install, with dolphin as filemanager..is the trash opened with konqueror or dolphin ?
[12:37]  * Jucato fires up vbox
[12:39] <Jucato> mikkael: dolphin
[12:39] <mikkael> uh oh, then again something wrong on my install :(
[12:40] <stdin> mikkael: seems to work here
[12:42] <mikkael> well google shows a lot of results if i search for that error-message..ill try to fix this
[12:42] <mikkael> thanks, you saved lp from another invalid bug ;)
[12:43] <stdin> I remember it not working during the pre-releases of gutsy, but that got fixed afaik
[12:44] <mikkael> my install is from august..
[12:45] <stdin> my install is from about september
[12:46] <Jucato> mine is last month. beat that! :P
[12:46] <stdin> fine! i'll reinstall now :p
[12:49] <mikkael> stdin: how about adding amarok2 to you ppa ?
[12:49] <stdin> mikkael: it won't build
[12:49] <mikkael> oh ok
[12:49] <stdin> that's the only problem :p
[12:50] <stdin> I tried getting a more recent snapshot, but that failed miserably too
[12:50] <mikkael> ok, gotta go, have a nice day guys and girls
[13:16] <mhb> hello
[13:21]  * Hobbsee waves
[13:22]  * Jucato waves too
[13:25] <stdin> now, why isn't poppler backported?
[13:26] <Hobbsee> .......................
[13:26] <Hobbsee> @lart stdin
[13:26] <stdin> well I needed to backport it to build... something? but it's not in -backports
[13:26] <Hobbsee> stdin: um...um...what do you need it for?
[13:27] <stdin> and it makes my "revert to -backports" script go "BOOM"
[13:27] <stdin> *with out it backported
[13:27] <Hobbsee> backporting poppler will tend to make it go boom, too
[13:27] <Hobbsee> assuming it's an api change, which it almost always is, iirc
[13:27] <stdin> I think I needed it for kdebase-kde4
[13:28] <Hobbsee> oh, do you just need libpoppler-qt4-2 ?
[13:29] <stdin> not sure, i needed it for something (fuzzy memory) when building kde4 in my ppa
[13:30] <stdin> either kdebase-kde4 or kde4libs
[13:30] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~% rdepends libpoppler2 | wc -l                   12:29AM
[13:30] <Hobbsee> 19
[13:30] <stdin> doesn't count build-deps does it..
[13:30] <stdin> it's fancy grep time
[13:31] <Hobbsee> no, that's why i searched for the binary lib, not the -dev package - and made the assumption that all the packages involved did shlibs correctly.
[13:31] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~% rbuildepend libpoppler-qt4-dev | wc -l         12:31AM
[13:31] <Hobbsee> 8
[13:31] <Hobbsee> i'd say ti's that that you need
[13:32] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~% rbuildepend libpoppler-dev | wc -l             12:31AM
[13:32] <Hobbsee> 18
[13:32] <Hobbsee> sarah@Lo
[13:32] <stdin> I think it's kdegraphics-kde4 and/or koffice actually
[13:32] <stdin> grep -C5 "poppler" /var/lib/apt/lists/ppa.launchpad.net_tsimpson_ubuntu_dists_gutsy_main_source_Sources |grep "Package:"
[13:32] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~% rbuildepend libpoppler-qt4-dev                 12:31AM
[13:32] <Hobbsee> kde4graphics
[13:32] <Hobbsee> kdegraphics-kde4
[13:32] <Hobbsee> koffice2
[13:32] <Hobbsee> okular
[13:32] <Hobbsee> kde4graphics
[13:33] <Hobbsee> kdegraphics-kde4
[13:33] <Hobbsee> koffice2
[13:33] <Hobbsee> okular
[13:33] <Hobbsee> you have a strange way of doing things :)
[13:33]  * stdin is tempted to do "!paste | Hobbsee", but fear the stick too much
[13:34] <Hobbsee> howzat?
[13:34] <stdin> that'll do :)
[13:35] <stdin> yeah, kdegraphics-kde4 build-deps libpoppler-qt-dev (>= 0.6.1-1)
[13:35] <stdin> and 0.6-0ubuntu2.1 is in -updates
[13:35] <Hobbsee> then i think you'll need to backport everything that depends on it.
[13:36] <Hobbsee> or build depends
[13:36] <Hobbsee> and test it
[13:36] <Hobbsee> either way, it's a mighty big backport
[13:36] <stdin> it'll be needed if you want kdegraphics-kde4 in gutsy-backports/universe
[13:37] <mhb> one thing is certain ... ast is a good speaker - makes one really unhappy about the state of bloat in current software
[13:37] <stdin> I've had the new poppler installed for a while and haven't noticed any breakage anyway (doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen any)
[13:37] <Hobbsee> jdong might have smoked enough crack to take it...but....
[13:39] <_buz> stdin: i've found it to be much faster
[13:39] <_buz> now pages render near instantly in kpdf
[13:40] <_buz> whatever you did to it, its appreciated :P
[13:40] <stdin> just got the package from hardy and built it against gutsy :)
[13:40] <Hobbsee> stdin: then again, this is backports.
[13:40] <Hobbsee> but, it's also ubuntu's reputation
[13:40] <Hobbsee> tough call.
[13:41] <stdin> Hobbsee: I know my ppa isn't any comparison to the ubuntu archive
[13:42] <stdin> also everyone who has kde4 from my ppa has the new poppler anyway
[13:42] <Hobbsee> stdin: it's not the kde stuff that i'm worried about
[13:42] <Hobbsee> it's the fact that who knows about gnome, etc, stuff, which people who are testing your ppa likely arent using
[13:42] <stdin> yeah, true
[13:43] <Hobbsee> if evince breaks with the new poppler, your KDE 4 people are extremely unlikely to test it :)
[13:43] <Hobbsee> yet, oh crap, you've just broken it for anyone running backports running gnome.  "whoops"
[13:44] <stdin> I doubt "whoops" will be the exact response :p
[13:44] <Hobbsee> well, true :{P
[13:48] <ScottK> No, the exact response is something like "Backports aren't enabled by default for a reason."
[13:49] <Hobbsee> *snort*
[13:49] <Hobbsee> well...
[13:50] <stdin> they do say "unsupported updates", but not "enable this and have to reinstall"
[13:50] <Jucato> coz that would be "stdin's PPA"...
[13:50]  * Jucato runs and hides
[13:50] <Jucato> Hobbsee: you snorted again? O.o
[13:50] <mhb> kind of makes you look sceptically on all those new ultra-complex projects.
[13:51] <Jucato> hi mhb
[13:51] <mhb> hi Jucato
[13:51] <stdin> Jucato: nah, my ppa has "enable this and get a svn version of konversation, a broken smplayer and a shiny new QtCurve" :p
[13:51] <stdin> KDE4 was just a bonus :)
[13:51]  * ScottK once worked on a project where we spent almost 2 years simplifying the design to the simplest, minimal solution we could come up with.
[13:51] <Jucato> "and break your system" :D
[13:52] <stdin> only if you don't remove kde4base-data
[13:52] <mhb> ScottK: and the result?
[13:52] <ScottK> Worked better than anyone expected when fielded.
[13:52] <ScottK> We also got some "You spent two years in design and all you changed was ..."
[13:52] <mhb> :o)
[13:53] <ScottK> My response was along the lines of, "Yeah, it was really hard to figure out how to change so little."
[13:54] <ScottK> Of course I've also been caught figuring out how to do things that get 80% of the benifit at 5% the costs too.
[13:56] <mhb> ScottK: that is what I thought
[13:56] <mhb> we really should be trying to do things simple
[13:56] <ScottK> It's hard though.
[13:57] <mhb> people said that Adept was too complex, and we will soon be replacing it with something twice (or more) as complex, with DBus dependencies and more
[13:57] <ScottK> A good exercise is to try to add a feature to a program at a net zero SLOC count change.
[13:58]  * ScottK has personally already replaced Adept with Apt.
[13:58] <mhb> me too
[13:58] <mhb> actually, I was wondering whether we need a package manager
[13:59] <ScottK> We do, but it should be far lighter than Adept, I'd say.
[13:59] <Hobbsee> we should use an automatix-equivalent
[14:00] <mhb> you could have a nice web app doing all the searching and other stuff
[14:00] <mhb> if you have no internet, you use gdebi then, I guess
[14:00]  * ScottK boggles at nice being right next to web app.
[14:00] <mhb> :o)
[14:01] <ScottK> But of course, I'm old and cranky, so I like my programs and my data on my actual computer.
[14:01] <mhb> me too
[14:02] <mhb> but I like googling, too
[14:02] <mhb> googling a package, clicking on it, see it install...
[14:03] <mhb> and when you are old and cranky, you would use apt-get which you have on your machine nonetheless
[14:04]  * ScottK shudders at actually installing code found via Google without looking at it.
[14:04] <mhb> I still think adept manager lacks a target group
[14:04] <mhb> ScottK: installation could be done via apt like it still is
[14:05] <mhb> ScottK: you just find the package via the internet, the installation will be done by a nicer version of adept batch
[14:05] <ScottK> Right.  It's the install random code found somewhere out there I shudder at.
[14:06] <mhb> ScottK: which will not happen in this scenario
[14:06] <ScottK> OK. I guess I misunderstood "[09:02] <mhb> googling a package, clicking on it, see it install..."
[14:07]  * Jucato thought Tonio_ was working on kio-apt for that?
[14:07] <mhb> he already did it
[14:08] <mhb> the framework is all in place, basically
[14:08] <mhb> all we would need is just do a nice official search engine for packages and then dump graphical package management once and for all
[14:09]  * Jucato would disagree w/ the last part though.. but since he doesn't code, doesn't have a right to say
[14:09] <mhb> Jucato: what do you mean?
[14:10] <Jucato> if by "dump graphical package management'" you mean dropping a standalone package manager app.
[14:11] <mhb> Jucato: yes, by dump graphical package management I mean dropping everything except gdebi and adept_batch
[14:11] <mhb> Jucato: please tell me who and why would need it
[14:11] <mhb> Jucato: my idea surely can be flawed
[14:12] <Jucato> it's just me. don't worry about it :)
[14:12] <Jucato> don't have stats or user feedback to back it up.
[14:13] <mhb> Jucato: just give me an example
[14:13] <mhb> Jucato: basic users would browse the web, it is perhaps even easier for them than the current way
[14:13] <mhb> Jucato: and I guess more intuitive
[14:13] <mhb> Jucato: advanced users like me stick to apt-get
[14:14] <Jucato> I don't know... that really sounds easy for installing (and browsing) packages. but besides installing?
[14:16] <Jucato> it would probably really be more intuitive though for users coming from Windows-land, where they'd use a web browser to look for packages and then download those and install them
[14:16] <mhb> hmm, I wonder how often basic users remove packages
[14:16] <mhb> I mean surely they remove apps
[14:16] <mhb> and they perhaps fancy autoremoving
[14:17] <mhb> but besides this?
[14:17] <mhb> libraries?
[14:18] <ScottK> mhb: This may be a good spec for Hardy +1.  Not to soon to start thinking it through.
[14:19] <Jucato> just not sure.. despite the unlove for Adept, there are still quite a number of users who prefer to use a GUI package manager. and in the absence of a good KDE/Qt alternative, resort to Synaptic
[14:19] <ScottK> So make one that's lighter and faster.
[14:20] <mhb> indeed
[14:20] <mhb> but there are no plans of such a manager
[14:20] <mhb> only more complicated ones are on the horizon
[14:20] <ScottK> mhb: So make some.
[14:21] <Jucato> qt frontend to packagekit in the making?
[14:21]  * ScottK thinks not.
[14:21] <Jucato> I mean, there's one in the making... not sure about it's status though
[14:22] <ScottK> There is?
[14:22] <Jucato> yeah
[14:22]  * ScottK thought it was just a Gnome thing.  Not sure how it'd help anywhere else?
[14:22] <mhb> ScottK: why?
[14:22] <mhb> ScottK: I mean - my solution will be very light
[14:22] <Jucato> packagekit is supposed to be a cross-desktop/distro package management system
[14:22] <mhb> ScottK: why should I make more?
[14:23] <Jucato> http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/qt-frontend-for-packagekit/
[14:23] <ScottK> Jucato: For Gnome.
[14:23] <Jucato> er?
[14:23] <mhb> Jucato: packagekit will be complex by design
[14:23] <ScottK> That's what someone told me.  At which point I quit caring.
[14:23] <Jucato> it doesn't have a GUI frontend
[14:23] <Jucato> afaik
[14:23] <Jucato> hm. ok...
[14:23] <ScottK> mhb: I agree with much of what you're saying, but not the web app bit.
[14:23] <Jucato> I might be wrong. so anyway
[14:24] <mhb> ScottK: server (web) apps are designed for indexing stuff...
[14:24] <mhb> ScottK: so search will take less time than it would take normally
[14:25] <mhb> ScottK: on my machine, on grammas machine, everywhere
[14:25] <ScottK> I can see creating a functional split where figuring out what package you want to install is a web thingy, but everything after that is a local app.
[14:25] <mhb> you will not download anything via web itself, you just find the package, everything else will be as secure as it is today
[14:26] <mhb> ScottK: of course
[14:26] <ScottK> OK.  Sounds like we agree.
[14:27] <mhb> ScottK: the web app would be the equivalent of the user googling "sudo apt-get install package"
[14:28] <ScottK> +site:kubuntu,org
[14:28] <mhb> ScottK: adept_batch would handle the installation itself
[14:29] <mhb> advanced users would still prefer apt-get cmd line because it is the superior way of adminning stuff IMHO.
[14:29] <_buz> how would go about alternative repos with webapp
[14:30] <ScottK> _buz: Hopefully only after lots of warning.
[14:30] <ScottK> Really not our problem.
[14:30] <mhb> _buz: yeah, that is the only technological part that is not ready today... something like apt://repository/package could be done, but with warnings
[14:31] <_buz> sounds too much like linspire to me
[14:32] <ScottK> _buz: What sounds like Linspire?
[14:32] <_buz> webapp for packages
[14:32] <_buz> isnt that what linspire does
[14:33] <ScottK> You mean Click and Run?
[14:33] <_buz> yes
[14:33] <mhb> it may be similar, I am not saying that the idea is original
[14:33] <ScottK> It's main point is to get you proprietary software, so the intent we're discussing is completely different.
[14:33] <mhb> we already have the technology, opensuse has it, too
[14:34] <mhb> it is just the bold step with dropping the Add/Remove software and Adept Manager that is new
[14:34] <Jucato> totally radical change
[14:34] <mhb> we have seen that administering those apps was a PITA
[14:34] <mhb> nobody really cared for them
[14:34] <mhb> (devs, I mean)
[14:34] <mhb> and users were not really happy about them
[14:35] <Jucato> but doesn't that apply only to Adept?
[14:35] <Jucato> (unfortunately)
[14:35] <mhb> Jucato: hmm, other package managers are more polished, I am certain
[14:35] <ScottK> mhb: I'd say slap something together and get it in Universe for Hardy.  If users like it, maybe the tide can be turned.
[14:36] <mhb> ScottK: heh, how many people out of this channel would care if there was a new package in universe? :o)
[14:37] <Jucato> I guess what I'm just saying that to drop the prospect of having any GUI package manager completely, just because of Adept, is a bit of a jump... oh well
[14:37] <Jucato> time to work.
[14:37] <mhb> ScottK: I can sit on my behind doing nothin, because the technology is there already
[14:37] <ScottK> mhb: If every time someone whined about Adept, people could reply "Here, try this instead..." then maybe it'd get momentum.
[14:37] <ScottK> mhb: What do I install to make it work then?
[14:38] <mhb> ScottK: kio-apt from Tonios repos, I think
[14:38] <Hobbsee> ScottK: review the thing in -motu please
[14:38] <mhb> I dont know whether he pushed it somewhere
[14:38] <ScottK> Hobbsee: There is no thing yet.
[14:38] <_buz> whatever happened to kpackage anyway
[14:38] <Hobbsee> ScottK: at :32?
[14:39] <ScottK> Right.  We're discussing the idea of a light weight alternative to Adept.
[14:39] <mhb> ScottK: there is also another aspect, which I sometimes take too seriously, but it is definitely important, and that is publicity
[14:39] <Jucato> ScottK: lightweight would be an understatement I think :)
[14:39] <ScottK> mhb: True, but IME if you have a better mousetrap, people would notice.
[14:40] <mhb> ScottK: we already have the technology and we can have it working by Alpha 2
[14:41] <ScottK> Great.  When you have something that needs reviewed for upload, ping me on -motu and I'll take a break from my reviewing strike to look at it.
[14:41] <mhb> I guess for Hardy, having both around, but pushing the new one could be the goal
[14:41] <mhb> because it is LTS, after all
[14:41] <ScottK> Yes.  No radical change for Hardy is the best way.
[14:41] <mhb> we can see if it catches on, and we will have Adept as failsafe ready
[14:42] <ScottK> Exactly.
[19:12] <Lure> Riddell: what is going on with kdepim packages in hardy?
[20:23] <jjesse> here's the fun i'm having today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/j0217995/sets/72157603315165637/
[20:25] <ScottK> Yum
[20:25] <jjesse> yeah.... no water for 3 days :(
[21:02] <mhb> evening
[21:04] <ScottK> mhb: Good evening.
[21:23] <mhb> ScottK: the biggest flaw in my plan ATM is the way that the website "knows" whether the package is installed or not
[21:24] <ScottK> That'd definitely be tough.
[21:26] <mhb> yeah, I wonder how to do that as simply as possible
[21:28] <buz> easy, use an active-x control
[21:28] <buz> SCNR
[21:29] <mhb> buz: sure :o)
[21:30] <nosrednaekim> mhb: what are you making?
[21:31] <yuriy> mhb: from skimming the conversation yesterday, i thought the idea was something along the lines of kio-apt?
[21:31] <yuriy> (which i haven't tried)
[21:31] <mhb> yuriy: right, my idea was to create a package search web application which would be tied to kio-apt
[21:32] <yuriy> mhb: what do you mean by a web application though? would it be running locally?
[21:32] <nosrednaekim> mhb: how would it be different from kio-apt?
[21:33] <mhb> yuriy: think adept manager, but as a web app, with links to kio-apt
[21:34] <mhb> yuriy: well, not exactly kio-apt, more like the Firefox package installation system
[21:35] <mhb> yuriy: apt://thunderbird/ installs Thunderbird ...
[21:35] <nosrednaekim> oh... cool.
[21:35] <mhb> nosrednaekim: one - searching done remotely, faster searching on all computers
[21:37] <mhb> nosrednaekim: two - web content is really flexible, you cannot add icons, screenshots to the current Debian labeling system easily, you could do that on web pages
[21:37] <nosrednaekim> oh thats nice.... screenshots of the app :D
[21:37] <mhb> nosrednaekim: three - it is more multiplatform than whatever the PackageKit people come up with
[21:38] <nosrednaekim> haha.... figures thats what is behind it all :D
[21:38] <mhb> nosrednaekim: we already have most of the technology, OpenSUSE has it too and I am sure more distributions will have it in the future
[21:39] <ScottK> Actually getdeb (for all I think they aren't great packagers) have a decent web site for this kind of thing.
[21:39] <mhb> ScottK: good to know, I will check that
[21:41] <mhb> nosrednaekim: my aim would be to finally solve package management in Kubuntu for basic users
[21:41] <mhb> nosrednaekim: by "solve" I mean replace with something that is usable, simple, fast and maintainable
[21:41] <nosrednaekim> yeah.
[21:42] <nosrednaekim> I think klikit was trying to do something like this..
[21:42] <mhb> nosrednaekim: what we need is simple package installation for the common users
[21:42] <mhb> nosrednaekim: powerusers should always stick to the command line, there is no point in providing graphical tools for them
[21:42] <mhb> (by default, that is)
[21:43] <nosrednaekim> I love synaptic, and I think I'm pretty much power-user defined.
[21:43] <nosrednaekim> Though in general I agree with you
[21:43] <nosrednaekim> adept is too complicated
[21:43] <ScottK> And slow
[21:44] <nosrednaekim> I wish we could just go with synaptic themes all qt-ish XD
[21:44] <mhb> nosrednaekim: sure, use what you like best, that is the open-source way.
[21:45] <nosrednaekim> yup.... but I will be interested in seeing what you turn out..your stuff is pretty good..
[21:45] <ScottK> mhb: Make it simple, useable, and fast, and it'll be what people pick.
[21:46] <mhb> nosrednaekim: adept is too complex to my liking, and too complex usually means too slow. Although I try to be as unbiased to PackageKit as possible, you cannot really label it "simple".
[21:48] <mhb> ScottK: hmm, the getdeb.net engine is not open-source
[21:48] <buz> i think adept primarily is as slow because its python
[21:48] <mhb> buz: wrong, adept is pure C++
[21:48] <buz> it is?
[21:48] <buz> well in any case, the ui sure is weir
[21:48] <buz> d
[21:49] <nosrednaekim> wish people would get it out of their heads that python is slow too <_<
[21:49] <ScottK> mhb: No.  I was just refering to how it looked.  I'd not recommend actually using any of their code even if it was available.
[21:49] <buz> nosrednaekim: depends on what youre doing
[21:49] <buz> if you start crunching data in pure python, it's not gonna be fast
[21:50] <mhb> true
[21:50] <buz> but if youre sane enough to use the lib properly, it can be quite fast
[21:50] <buz> and the code is a dream to read
[21:50] <mhb> unfortunately Python is one of the languages where your math computations take so much longer that you manage to write the C equivalent, compile it and finish it while the Python code runs
[21:51] <ScottK> Develop first and then opimize later anyway.
[21:51] <buz> usually i would agree
[21:51] <ScottK> mhb: True, but do the thing in Python and there optimize where needed.
[21:51] <buz> but i have seen projects where that went spectacularly wrong
[21:52] <buz> +
[21:52]  * ScottK worked on one project where it turned out DNS lookup latency made code optimization almost no help at all.
[21:52] <buz> was that per chance reserve resolving httpd log cruncher?
[21:53] <mhb> hmm, I need advice from you experienced dpkg gurus ... does every user have the right to check whether a package is installed or not?
[21:53] <mhb> or is that restricted somehow?
[21:54] <buz> looks like that data is 644 root
[21:54] <apachelogger> aye, readable by everyone AFAIK
[21:54] <mhb> thanks
[22:07] <yuriy> mhb: so it would be run remotely?
[22:09] <mhb> yuriy: depends on what you mean
[22:10] <mhb> yuriy: package search? yes.
[22:10] <mhb> yuriy: package installation? no.
[22:14] <mhb> yuriy: think www.getdeb.net for package search, when you want an app you click "Install" and you will be redirected to an URL like apt://install/thunderbird, which will be processed by kio-apt
[22:14] <mhb> (adept_batch, specifically)
[22:15] <ScottK> Except it would install a real Ubuntu package and not the random stuff they actually provide.
[22:15] <mhb> right.