[01:55] <troy_s> somerville32: Xubuntu changing looks?  Thank god.
[01:55] <somerville32> : O
[01:55] <somerville32> Whats wrong with our look?
[01:55] <somerville32> I lovei t.
[01:55] <somerville32> Gutsy was amazing.
[01:56] <troy_s> somerville32: Uh... moving on then.
[01:56] <somerville32> lol
[01:57] <somerville32> No no, you don't get off that easy
[01:57] <troy_s> somerville32: I fear I must. :)
[01:58] <somerville32> :P
[01:59] <somerville32> troy_s, You're now expected to help with Xubuntu artwork.
[01:59] <troy_s> somerville32: Nope.  You have jmak and he has been loyal and dedicated.
[01:59] <troy_s> somerville32: I gurgled to myself when I saw the Gutsy work though.  It scared me.
[02:00] <somerville32> ...
[02:00] <somerville32> We got a lot of positive reviews for Gutsy's artwork
[02:01] <troy_s> somerville32: Evaluating design in our little world is a sheltered and closed circle filled with a lot of people who like to play follow the leader.
[02:02] <somerville32> Well, don't spit at it unless you're willing to polish it :P
[02:03] <troy_s> somerville32: It isn't spitting honestly.
[02:03] <troy_s> somerville32: My main issue (and it generally echoes some of the feedback I have received from more 'mainstream' folks) was that it was an extremely heavy handed replication of duplication.
[02:03] <troy_s> somerville32: In terms of the suffering wet-floor-itus.
[02:04] <troy_s> somerville32: But don't take my word for it.
[02:04]  * somerville32 blinks.
[02:05] <Toma-> troy_s➔ id love to hear what you have to say about UI design :)
[02:06] <troy_s> Toma-: I dont' think anyone cares about what I have to say about anything really.  It is why I idle in this little cave.
[02:06] <troy_s> lol
[02:06] <Toma-> awww :<
[02:07] <troy_s> Toma-: Do you subscribe to the ubuntu art mailing list?
[02:07] <Toma-> no, but i probably should
[02:09] <troy_s> Toma-: There are some interesting discussions at times.
[02:09] <Toma-> I just subscribed
[02:09] <troy_s> somerville32: Sorry... where are the reviews that you were speaking of?  I would be interested to read them.
[02:09] <troy_s> Toma-: Be warned.  But you might find something interesting.
[02:10] <Toma-> troy_s➔ Im one of those folks that wants desperatly to break free of the mould
[02:10] <troy_s> Toma-: In what respect?  You mean for default Ubuntu design?
[02:10] <Toma-> doubt itll happen in ubuntu
[02:10] <Toma-> general UI design
[02:11] <Toma-> my current desktop im making http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png
[02:11] <Toma-> works faster than KDE or gnome
[02:11] <troy_s> Toma-: Well the main stumbling block is probably twofold on that count.  1) Free software requires that certain things are constant in the realm of UI or else you break stuffs.
[02:12] <troy_s> 2) Breaking into interesting ground requires folks who code things.  Thus far, the more 'exemplary' candidates are byproducts of imitation.  Rather like stage one of art -- first you imitate / mimic.
[02:13] <troy_s> Toma-: And yes, rasterman has done quite a bit of benchmarking and memtesting to prove that E is pretty top shelf in terms of lean.
[02:15] <Toma-> gtk and qt are such horrible pigs on a design level and on a memory level :(
[02:29] <troy_s> kwwii: Ping.
[02:31] <troy_s> somerville32: So what are the changes that JMak is trying to implement?
[02:31] <somerville32> troy_s, Panel layout
[02:31] <somerville32> New icon
[02:31] <somerville32> New the
[02:31] <somerville32> *icons
[02:31] <somerville32> *themes
[02:31] <troy_s> somerville32: What stylings is he thinking?
[02:32] <somerville32> I'm not an artist and can't articulate
[02:32] <somerville32> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
[02:33] <troy_s> somerville32: So clearly there is a little 'shakeup' in the Xubuntu camp?
[02:34] <somerville32> Well, it won't be me committing the changes to revert the our panel layout policy
[02:35] <troy_s> ?
[02:35] <troy_s> aside from the panel moving to the left, what is different?
[02:35] <troy_s> looks virtually identical.
[02:36] <troy_s> or am i stupid and or missing something.
[02:36] <troy_s> lol
[02:36] <troy_s> (also immensely possible)
[02:39] <troy_s> somerville32: What do you mean it 'wont be you'?
[02:42] <somerville32> Look at Hardy
[02:42] <somerville32> The panel is like the default xfce desktop
[02:42] <somerville32> and the NouveX icons I think
[02:43] <somerville32> And I mean what I say, I won't make the changes
[02:45] <troy_s> somerville32: Ah.  So you are grounding your feet on the move then?
[02:46] <somerville32> Well, I'm not just going to go ahead and make it
[02:46] <somerville32> and we've been clear that we're not going to change the panel layout -we want it like gnome's default layout
[02:49] <troy_s> well then, all is well and good, no?
[02:53] <somerville32> I do want to see progress with the look and feel
[02:53] <somerville32> This is a LTS
[02:56] <troy_s> somerville32: So you want more blue then?
[02:56] <somerville32> Not although blue is in heavy in our pallet
[02:56] <somerville32> *No
[02:56] <troy_s> somerville32: Oh you have a palette.  Great.  Where is it?
[02:57]  * somerville32 grovels.
[02:58] <somerville32> I dunno :P
[02:58] <somerville32> Our art team is a one man effort, all our eggs are in one basket
[02:59] <somerville32> There is no documentation, no anything
[02:59] <somerville32> It is locked in
[02:59] <troy_s> somerville32: He has been loyal and true it seems.  Perhaps, given that, the team should let him have a kick at the can?
[02:59] <troy_s> brb ... restarting x.  BOrK3d.
[02:59] <somerville32> I don't have a problem with Jmak
[02:59] <somerville32> I think he has done excellent work
[03:00] <somerville32> I don't have a problem with Jmak
[03:00] <somerville32> I think he has done excellent work
[03:00] <troy_s> evil nasty little panels that won't go away.
[03:00] <troy_s> grr.
[03:00] <troy_s> somerville32: Let me rephrase this... and it applies across the board to all of Free Software...
[03:01] <troy_s> somerville32: What are you fearful of?  The 'product' is free.  Heaven knows that with the awful default design and work present in the offical *buntus that we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that art / design won't scare people away.
[03:01] <troy_s> somerville32: As a result, I am curious as to what everyone's worry is exactly...
[03:02] <troy_s> somerville32: It isn't like there is a hotbed of millions of customers paying and waited with baited breath...
[03:02] <troy_s> somerville32: Follow me?
[03:03] <somerville32> There is a hotbed of people, though
[03:03] <troy_s> somerville32: There are some very minor limited numbers... yes.
[03:04] <somerville32> I'd rather try to please than not to please
[03:04] <somerville32> Thats why I'm working on the distro
[03:04] <somerville32> To make it better
[03:04] <troy_s> somerville32: Ahhhhhhhhhhh the root of the issue.
[03:04] <troy_s> somerville32: And please is a universal term that is easy to point to correct and incorrect approaches when it comes to art and design?
[03:05] <somerville32> I
[03:05] <somerville32> am not an artist.
[03:05] <somerville32> I just want something that looks good for my users
[03:05] <troy_s> somerville32: If that were the case, one could make a strong case that in fact all of the *buntu's have gotten it completely incorrect as current user base is far behind even the distant second place Apple.
[03:05] <troy_s> somerville32: Your users?
[03:05] <troy_s> somerville32: And you think you are in a clear position to make that decision?
[03:05] <somerville32> I take personal responsibility for Xubuntu
[03:06] <somerville32> There is only like 3 of us working on it
[03:06] <somerville32> (Directly)
[03:06] <somerville32> I don't feel that I can pick the best theme
[03:06] <somerville32> Or the best colours
[03:06] <somerville32> Thats why I want people to get involved in Xubuntu artwork
[03:06] <troy_s> somerville32: I have studied art and design for a good five years, as well as practised art, photography, and several other worthless creative tidbits for a good 12 after that.  I would say that with that rather limited experience, I have _no_ clue what is 'good' for a given user base when it comes down to it.
[03:07] <troy_s> somerville32: Which is why, I suppose, I question your authoritarian position on 'good' -- being a nebulous and completely empty term if not mired in context.
[03:07] <somerville32> Obviously our perspectives on the issue are different but I think we can both agree that the goal is develop something, at the LCD, is attractive
[03:07] <somerville32> I think what we have is "good"
[03:07] <somerville32> I enjoy i
[03:07] <somerville32> *it
[03:08] <somerville32> Looks nice but I'm sure it could look better, can't it?
[03:08] <troy_s> somerville32: Sure, but you are but one of many many many people.  Do you think Xubuntu attracts people based on its default look / design / work?
[03:08] <_MMA_> somerville32: 3 active? Wow. I feel a little better about our position.
[03:08] <troy_s> somerville32: Better and good.  I have a tough time following those terms.
[03:09] <troy_s> _MMA_: How do you kill the damn gnome panel.  I did it once, now I can't do it again.
[03:09] <troy_s> _MMA_: I thought it was pkill but it refuses to die.
[03:09] <_MMA_> Oh hell I forgot. Ill look.
[03:09] <nothlit> killall gnome-panel
[03:09] <somerville32> All I know is that how it looks may affect how people interact and/or appreciate the distribution.
[03:10] <troy_s> somerville32: Sure, and one could argue that given the seriously amazing technology that the Ubuntus are flailing poorly at that.
[03:10] <troy_s> nothlit: No good... it resurrected itself.
[03:10] <Toma--> screenshots are easier to download than isos
[03:10] <nothlit> oh
[03:10] <nothlit> then take it out of system -> Preferences -> Sessions
[03:10] <troy_s> somerville32: Again, if Xubuntu isn't in a position to at least experiment with its rather conservative changes, does that bode well for anything / anyone?
[03:11] <somerville32> We're open to change
[03:11] <somerville32> But we are conservative, it seems
[03:11] <troy_s> somerville32: Clearly that isn't the case.
[03:11] <Toma--> _MMA_➔ any thoughts on a new ubuntustudio concept?
[03:12] <troy_s> somerville32: Is there perhaps a middle ground that the three of you can agree upon?
[03:12] <somerville32> I think I can we're happy to consider artwork changes
[03:13] <somerville32> But I'm tired of unproductive discussion on the developer mailing list
[03:13] <somerville32> I'd like to see more art-art people get involved
[03:13] <somerville32> Get other ideas flowing
[03:13] <troy_s> somerville32: My only thing to say would be that perhaps, in our current world, if Free Software isn't free to make changes and morph (perhaps 'radical' ones at times) -- do we have any lifeblood or strength left?
[03:14] <troy_s> somerville32: How do you plan on attracting +real+ artists (who are known historically to challenge norms and perception) when you aren't willing to even make a change that a loyal team mate is considering?
[03:14] <somerville32> We are considering all the changes he proposes
[03:14] <somerville32> But whats happening is just random banter
[03:15] <troy_s> somerville32: So the question is, if you would like to see "more art-art people" -- how do you see them fit into the picture?
[03:15] <troy_s> nothlit: HELP IT WONT DIE
[03:15] <troy_s> lol
[03:15] <troy_s> nothlit: ITS LIKE A BAD ED WOOD MOVIE
[03:16] <troy_s> (how the hell did I do it?)
[03:16] <Toma--> xkill, then click it?
[03:16] <somerville32> As an effective working body that develops concrete art proposals
[03:16] <_MMA_> Toma--: For now it will be a flatter look still. Use photos where we can and use the current logo. Will look like this minus the desktop icons. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2778/screenshot3nr7.png
[03:16] <_MMA_> And the icons are up in the air for now.
[03:17] <troy_s> AHHHH DID IT.  phew... sessions tab.  Thanks nothlit
[03:17] <_MMA_> Shit. I have to host it somewhere else.
[03:17] <troy_s> somerville32: Hrm.  So jmak's aren't concrete?
[03:17] <Toma-> Hmmm a photo you say
[03:17] <somerville32> I didn't say that
[03:18] <somerville32> Thats how I see "more art-art people" fitting in
[03:18] <troy_s> somerville32:  Ah.
[03:18]  * Toma- doesnt even have a camera ;(
[03:18] <somerville32> troy_s, Are you interested? :]
[03:18] <troy_s> somerville32: Not a chance.
[03:19] <somerville32> Why not? lol
[03:19] <_MMA_> Toma-: http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9370/screenshot3tj6.jpg
[03:19] <_MMA_> (minus the icons.
[03:20] <troy_s> somerville32: I think it would be a disservice to jmak (who regardless of what one thinks of his work has gotten the job done reliably for gosh knows how long).
[03:20] <Toma-> _MMA_➔ gloss is back hey?
[03:20] <troy_s> somerville32: As well as well... making blue cloudy curves isn't... uh...
[03:20] <troy_s> somerville32: Remotely good for Free Software.
[03:20] <_MMA_> Toma-: There's no gloss.
[03:20] <Toma-> that panel is gloss
[03:20] <_MMA_> No.
[03:20] <troy_s> Toma-: Have you seen _MMA_ 's attempt to illustrate the DIY look?
[03:21] <Toma-> no..
[03:21] <Toma-> ive seen some interesting concepts for it tho
[03:21] <troy_s> Toma-: He did some very very good work in accumulating what DIY is to a layman that might not be aware of it.
[03:21] <Toma-> hehe
[03:22] <troy_s> Toma-: It is evocative of the punk era (and in fact that is where it originated) and generally 'feels' like photocopied and distressed work.
[03:22] <_MMA_> Ill get it done. Even if it doesnt make this release. ;)
[03:22] <Toma-> :P
[03:22] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah... _that_ is a great attitude.  The will to stick with it and realize that it might not happen is damn respectable and admirable.
[03:22] <_MMA_> I gotta. I made hoodies with the distressed logo all over it. :)
[03:22] <Toma-> i chucked a couple of my things up on gnome look
[03:23] <troy_s> Toma-: Have a look at _MMA_ 's page.
[03:23] <Toma-> link?
[03:23] <troy_s> Toma-: The hard thing is to try and take the classic stylings and contemporize them possibly.
[03:23] <_MMA_> Toma-: you've seen that damn link 100 times.
[03:24] <Toma-> ....the wiki link?
[03:24] <_MMA_> Si
[03:24] <troy_s> _MMA_: Where are you on wallpapers, just so I know that these mocks aren't a complete waste of time (Did that already once this cycle thanks (not with you) :) ).
[03:25] <Toma-> Did you see this nilux guys idea for a GTK theme?
[03:25] <Toma-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/DIYConcept/Theme
[03:25] <Toma-> I dont think theres a gtk engine that could do it, but it would be rather spiffy
[03:26] <_MMA_> troy_s: I got a bunch of wall ideas. Thats really not the problem. Its that damn icon set. Along with the fact that I really dont think out theme fits no matter how flat I make it. :(
[03:26] <troy_s> _MMA_: Well... erm... granted the iconscape is pitiful -- what is wrong with offering a contrast on that level?
[03:27] <troy_s> _MMA_: The bulk of the execution is going to fall on the standard keystones -- that usplash / logon / wallpaper.
[03:27] <_MMA_> I dont know what you mean by the latter half. "contrast on that level"?
[03:27] <troy_s> _MMA_: I am just wondering if it will end up being too pedantic and monotonous maybe if it tries to 'be like the bigger picture'?
[03:28] <troy_s> _MMA_: Maybe a highly realistic set devoid of the nasty 'hey let's do that hideously dated gloss' thing might work?
[03:28] <Toma-> Those icons remind me of the high contrast themes available in KDE and the gnome accessability themes.
[03:28] <Toma-> and to a lesser extent, the gtk theme aswell
[03:29] <_MMA_> Oh sure, but which. I just started to get the feeling that this concept is too much trial and error than I could handle by myself. Especially where the icons were concerned.
[03:30] <troy_s> _MMA_: Well icons are such a strange creature.  I am simply thinking hey -- maybe anchor the look with a lovely bold and well designed wallpaper -- round it out with the gdm usplash variant -- and test fly a few icon sets against the wallpaper?
[03:31] <Toma-> what if you were to use a icon theme from mattahan (gant/buuf)?
[03:32] <_MMA_> I could create the parts, and independently they look good but together some things were starting to look a mess. Thats where I needed halp. Another eye. And while wallpapers are appreciated, it almost seems any monkey can make one. Its much harder to do a icon theme, usplash or GDM.
[03:32] <_MMA_> Toma-: While I love them, it wouldnt fly.
[03:32] <Toma-> Why not?
[03:32] <_MMA_> Too cartoonish.
[03:32] <troy_s> buuf
[03:32] <troy_s> lol
[03:32] <troy_s> i was just looking at them
[03:32] <Toma-> fantastic for punk
[03:32] <troy_s> lol
[03:32] <_MMA_> And Im unsure about the license.
[03:33] <troy_s> buuf is so stylized...
[03:33] <_MMA_> No. I dont think they fit at all for it.
[03:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: Actually, I honestly think the wallpaper is probably the biggest hitchpin to the thing working or not.
[03:33] <_MMA_> Beautiful but no.
[03:33]  * Toma- gets to work on a Buuf+Wallpaper :)
[03:33] <troy_s> it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something..
[03:34] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure its key but its easy to get people to make 'em.
[03:34] <Toma-> Buuf = "Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License."
[03:34] <_MMA_> I needed help on the rest.
[03:34] <troy_s> _MMA_: Have you considered trying to get Lith?
[03:34] <troy_s> _MMA_: Lith is pretty much spot on is it not?
[03:34] <_MMA_> "troy_s: it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something.." I completely agree. And its driving me nuts.
[03:35] <troy_s> _MMA_: And who knows... maybe a decently executed contemporary icon set (ack hate to say vista inspirate) or something would provide good contrast in terms of content to almost work?
[03:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. I thought about it. Im honestly a little hesitant about asking and unsure if I would get .svg's. (or .ai's)
[03:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: Lith is still feels as close to 'yep' but maybe its too much.
[03:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: Who knows... maybe ask him?  Surely he must know of the buntu's and who knows how he woudl respond.
[03:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Problem was with playing with Lith on top of a similarly styled wallpaper is that it got messy.
[03:37] <_MMA_> Hard to see the icons on the desktop.
[03:37] <_MMA_> In Nautilus they were ok.
[03:37] <troy_s> _MMA_: Well that is what I mean (although again, it is hard to know without a decent wallpaper and even then, in context of natilus is probably more important than purely on desky)
[03:37] <troy_s> _MMA_: Grr... you typed it before I said it.
[03:37] <_MMA_> ;)
[03:40] <_MMA_> But I've resigned myself to making it a longer term project. This Hardy theme will come along fine. I removed the gloss but have a slight sheen. Slight gradient. I'm gonna use photos where I can. I have emailed Tonic about the Usplash with concepts.
[03:40] <troy_s> _MMA_: Even 'gnomish' might work?
[03:41] <_MMA_> I have one guy that did a nice GDM Ill contact again.
[03:41]  * _MMA_ looks.
[03:41] <_MMA_> troy_s: You have a link?
[03:41]  * _MMA_ cant readily find them.
[03:42] <troy_s> _MMA_: I think they are pretty flat toned... and monochromaticish...
[03:42] <troy_s> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gnomish+SVG?content=21296
[03:43] <_MMA_> Ahh yes. I remember.
[03:43] <troy_s> its such a hard thing to try and add a compliment to
[03:43] <_MMA_> I can hear now the amount of people screaming how ugly it is.
[03:43] <troy_s> LOL
[03:43] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah well they are the same ones voting the ninja ubuntu cof up to 80%
[03:43] <troy_s> llooool
[03:44] <_MMA_> :)
[03:44] <troy_s> _MMA_: Honestly, I would probably worry as hell on the default wallpaper and how to present the Usplash (as the GDM would probably be a wallpaper variant (NOT the same fricking thing))
[03:45] <_MMA_> For the DIY look?
[03:45] <hbons> be sure not to get rid of the gdm "drum" sound, i love it:)
[03:45] <_MMA_> hbons: We're talking about Ubuntu Studio.
[03:46] <hbons> oh well:)
[03:46] <_MMA_> troy_s: For Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio-Hardy I git this guy in the channel. Not that I like the glossy look but I think there are some interesting ideas in this set. http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Minimal-perception?content=68146&PHPSESSID=7de31c485c5a07c247b67dffbb37e750
[03:46] <_MMA_> s/git/got
[03:47] <_MMA_> He sent me some variants with the gloss removed and some color variants.
[03:50] <troy_s> _MMA_: I know you have, but you went to kde-look too right?
[03:50] <_MMA_> Not lately.
[03:51] <troy_s> although i am convinced that if more people spent less time dreaming up names and more time on the work it might be better.
[03:51] <troy_s> lol
[03:51] <_MMA_> :)
[03:52] <_MMA_> And on that note, I'm gonna try to sleep. I'm getting sick and want to try to get to bed before I feel too bad.
[03:53] <troy_s> aight
[03:53] <troy_s> night
[10:05] <zniavre> hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ?
[10:23] <kwwii> zniavre: right, I'll get right on that
[10:30] <andreasn> hi kwwii
[10:31] <kwwii> hi andreasn
[10:31] <kwwii> andreasn: how's things?
[10:31] <andreasn> what's up?
[10:31] <kwwii> hehe, you first :-)
[10:31] <andreasn> pretty good, finishing up some work
[10:31] <kwwii> yeah, I am still working on putting this presentation together
[10:31] <andreasn> I was thinking of trying to learn how to do patches today
[10:31] <andreasn> let's see how it goes
[10:31] <kwwii> we'll make a geek of you yet
[10:31] <andreasn> when were you going to held the presentation?
[10:32] <kwwii> dec. 5th
[10:32] <andreasn> hope it goes well, and that you're able to decide on the colors
[10:32] <andreasn> so you can return home somethime this year :)
[10:32] <kwwii> yeah, me too
[10:46] <kwwii> hi nothlit
[10:46] <kwwii> I have a definite answer on the artwork licence, if anyone is interested
[10:47] <kwwii> we will be using cc-sa for the artwork (and no, there is no reason to discuss it as it is not my decision)
[14:33] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: We wont know anything "from the boss" until after the 5th of December.
[14:34] <Mandarancid> _MMA_:OK Thanks!!
[14:34] <_MMA_> No problem.
[14:47] <Toma-> I propose all check boxes be replaced with smileys in next release. http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/smiley.png
[14:47] <Toma-> :)
[14:49] <_MMA_> No. Ponies.
[14:49] <Toma-> Hmm. Ill have to work the gradients! lets see if its possible
[14:49] <_MMA_> :P
[15:14] <lapo> hi
[21:01] <knowmad> hi, is this an appropriate channel for discussion usplash customization issues?
 hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ?
[23:59] <troy_s> No.