[01:55] somerville32: Xubuntu changing looks? Thank god. [01:55] : O [01:55] Whats wrong with our look? [01:55] I lovei t. [01:55] Gutsy was amazing. [01:56] somerville32: Uh... moving on then. [01:56] lol [01:57] No no, you don't get off that easy [01:57] somerville32: I fear I must. :) [01:58] :P [01:59] troy_s, You're now expected to help with Xubuntu artwork. [01:59] somerville32: Nope. You have jmak and he has been loyal and dedicated. [01:59] somerville32: I gurgled to myself when I saw the Gutsy work though. It scared me. [02:00] ... [02:00] We got a lot of positive reviews for Gutsy's artwork [02:01] somerville32: Evaluating design in our little world is a sheltered and closed circle filled with a lot of people who like to play follow the leader. [02:02] Well, don't spit at it unless you're willing to polish it :P [02:03] somerville32: It isn't spitting honestly. [02:03] somerville32: My main issue (and it generally echoes some of the feedback I have received from more 'mainstream' folks) was that it was an extremely heavy handed replication of duplication. [02:03] somerville32: In terms of the suffering wet-floor-itus. [02:04] somerville32: But don't take my word for it. [02:04] * somerville32 blinks. [02:05] troy_s➔ id love to hear what you have to say about UI design :) [02:06] Toma-: I dont' think anyone cares about what I have to say about anything really. It is why I idle in this little cave. [02:06] lol [02:06] awww :< [02:07] Toma-: Do you subscribe to the ubuntu art mailing list? [02:07] no, but i probably should [02:09] Toma-: There are some interesting discussions at times. [02:09] I just subscribed [02:09] somerville32: Sorry... where are the reviews that you were speaking of? I would be interested to read them. [02:09] Toma-: Be warned. But you might find something interesting. [02:10] troy_s➔ Im one of those folks that wants desperatly to break free of the mould [02:10] Toma-: In what respect? You mean for default Ubuntu design? [02:10] doubt itll happen in ubuntu [02:10] general UI design [02:11] my current desktop im making http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png [02:11] works faster than KDE or gnome [02:11] Toma-: Well the main stumbling block is probably twofold on that count. 1) Free software requires that certain things are constant in the realm of UI or else you break stuffs. [02:12] 2) Breaking into interesting ground requires folks who code things. Thus far, the more 'exemplary' candidates are byproducts of imitation. Rather like stage one of art -- first you imitate / mimic. [02:13] Toma-: And yes, rasterman has done quite a bit of benchmarking and memtesting to prove that E is pretty top shelf in terms of lean. [02:15] gtk and qt are such horrible pigs on a design level and on a memory level :( [02:29] kwwii: Ping. [02:31] somerville32: So what are the changes that JMak is trying to implement? [02:31] troy_s, Panel layout [02:31] New icon [02:31] New the [02:31] *icons [02:31] *themes [02:31] somerville32: What stylings is he thinking? [02:32] I'm not an artist and can't articulate [02:32] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork [02:33] somerville32: So clearly there is a little 'shakeup' in the Xubuntu camp? [02:34] Well, it won't be me committing the changes to revert the our panel layout policy [02:35] ? [02:35] aside from the panel moving to the left, what is different? [02:35] looks virtually identical. [02:36] or am i stupid and or missing something. [02:36] lol [02:36] (also immensely possible) [02:39] somerville32: What do you mean it 'wont be you'? [02:42] Look at Hardy [02:42] The panel is like the default xfce desktop [02:42] and the NouveX icons I think [02:43] And I mean what I say, I won't make the changes [02:45] somerville32: Ah. So you are grounding your feet on the move then? [02:46] Well, I'm not just going to go ahead and make it [02:46] and we've been clear that we're not going to change the panel layout -we want it like gnome's default layout [02:49] well then, all is well and good, no? [02:53] I do want to see progress with the look and feel [02:53] This is a LTS [02:56] somerville32: So you want more blue then? [02:56] Not although blue is in heavy in our pallet [02:56] *No [02:56] somerville32: Oh you have a palette. Great. Where is it? [02:57] * somerville32 grovels. [02:58] I dunno :P [02:58] Our art team is a one man effort, all our eggs are in one basket [02:59] There is no documentation, no anything [02:59] It is locked in [02:59] somerville32: He has been loyal and true it seems. Perhaps, given that, the team should let him have a kick at the can? [02:59] brb ... restarting x. BOrK3d. [02:59] I don't have a problem with Jmak [02:59] I think he has done excellent work [03:00] I don't have a problem with Jmak [03:00] I think he has done excellent work [03:00] evil nasty little panels that won't go away. [03:00] grr. [03:00] somerville32: Let me rephrase this... and it applies across the board to all of Free Software... [03:01] somerville32: What are you fearful of? The 'product' is free. Heaven knows that with the awful default design and work present in the offical *buntus that we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that art / design won't scare people away. [03:01] somerville32: As a result, I am curious as to what everyone's worry is exactly... [03:02] somerville32: It isn't like there is a hotbed of millions of customers paying and waited with baited breath... [03:02] somerville32: Follow me? [03:03] There is a hotbed of people, though [03:03] somerville32: There are some very minor limited numbers... yes. [03:04] I'd rather try to please than not to please [03:04] Thats why I'm working on the distro [03:04] To make it better [03:04] somerville32: Ahhhhhhhhhhh the root of the issue. [03:04] somerville32: And please is a universal term that is easy to point to correct and incorrect approaches when it comes to art and design? [03:05] I [03:05] am not an artist. [03:05] I just want something that looks good for my users [03:05] somerville32: If that were the case, one could make a strong case that in fact all of the *buntu's have gotten it completely incorrect as current user base is far behind even the distant second place Apple. [03:05] somerville32: Your users? [03:05] somerville32: And you think you are in a clear position to make that decision? [03:05] I take personal responsibility for Xubuntu [03:06] There is only like 3 of us working on it [03:06] (Directly) [03:06] I don't feel that I can pick the best theme [03:06] Or the best colours [03:06] Thats why I want people to get involved in Xubuntu artwork [03:06] somerville32: I have studied art and design for a good five years, as well as practised art, photography, and several other worthless creative tidbits for a good 12 after that. I would say that with that rather limited experience, I have _no_ clue what is 'good' for a given user base when it comes down to it. [03:07] somerville32: Which is why, I suppose, I question your authoritarian position on 'good' -- being a nebulous and completely empty term if not mired in context. [03:07] Obviously our perspectives on the issue are different but I think we can both agree that the goal is develop something, at the LCD, is attractive [03:07] I think what we have is "good" [03:07] I enjoy i [03:07] *it [03:08] Looks nice but I'm sure it could look better, can't it? [03:08] somerville32: Sure, but you are but one of many many many people. Do you think Xubuntu attracts people based on its default look / design / work? [03:08] <_MMA_> somerville32: 3 active? Wow. I feel a little better about our position. [03:08] somerville32: Better and good. I have a tough time following those terms. [03:09] _MMA_: How do you kill the damn gnome panel. I did it once, now I can't do it again. [03:09] _MMA_: I thought it was pkill but it refuses to die. [03:09] <_MMA_> Oh hell I forgot. Ill look. [03:09] killall gnome-panel [03:09] All I know is that how it looks may affect how people interact and/or appreciate the distribution. [03:10] somerville32: Sure, and one could argue that given the seriously amazing technology that the Ubuntus are flailing poorly at that. [03:10] nothlit: No good... it resurrected itself. [03:10] screenshots are easier to download than isos [03:10] oh [03:10] then take it out of system -> Preferences -> Sessions [03:10] somerville32: Again, if Xubuntu isn't in a position to at least experiment with its rather conservative changes, does that bode well for anything / anyone? [03:11] We're open to change [03:11] But we are conservative, it seems [03:11] somerville32: Clearly that isn't the case. [03:11] _MMA_➔ any thoughts on a new ubuntustudio concept? [03:12] somerville32: Is there perhaps a middle ground that the three of you can agree upon? [03:12] I think I can we're happy to consider artwork changes [03:13] But I'm tired of unproductive discussion on the developer mailing list [03:13] I'd like to see more art-art people get involved [03:13] Get other ideas flowing [03:13] somerville32: My only thing to say would be that perhaps, in our current world, if Free Software isn't free to make changes and morph (perhaps 'radical' ones at times) -- do we have any lifeblood or strength left? [03:14] somerville32: How do you plan on attracting +real+ artists (who are known historically to challenge norms and perception) when you aren't willing to even make a change that a loyal team mate is considering? [03:14] We are considering all the changes he proposes [03:14] But whats happening is just random banter [03:15] somerville32: So the question is, if you would like to see "more art-art people" -- how do you see them fit into the picture? [03:15] nothlit: HELP IT WONT DIE [03:15] lol [03:15] nothlit: ITS LIKE A BAD ED WOOD MOVIE [03:16] (how the hell did I do it?) [03:16] xkill, then click it? === Toma-- is now known as Toma- [03:16] As an effective working body that develops concrete art proposals [03:16] <_MMA_> Toma--: For now it will be a flatter look still. Use photos where we can and use the current logo. Will look like this minus the desktop icons. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2778/screenshot3nr7.png [03:16] <_MMA_> And the icons are up in the air for now. [03:17] AHHHH DID IT. phew... sessions tab. Thanks nothlit [03:17] <_MMA_> Shit. I have to host it somewhere else. [03:17] somerville32: Hrm. So jmak's aren't concrete? [03:17] Hmmm a photo you say [03:17] I didn't say that [03:18] Thats how I see "more art-art people" fitting in [03:18] somerville32: Ah. [03:18] * Toma- doesnt even have a camera ;( [03:18] troy_s, Are you interested? :] [03:18] somerville32: Not a chance. [03:19] Why not? lol [03:19] <_MMA_> Toma-: http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9370/screenshot3tj6.jpg [03:19] <_MMA_> (minus the icons. [03:20] somerville32: I think it would be a disservice to jmak (who regardless of what one thinks of his work has gotten the job done reliably for gosh knows how long). [03:20] _MMA_➔ gloss is back hey? [03:20] somerville32: As well as well... making blue cloudy curves isn't... uh... [03:20] somerville32: Remotely good for Free Software. [03:20] <_MMA_> Toma-: There's no gloss. [03:20] that panel is gloss [03:20] <_MMA_> No. [03:20] Toma-: Have you seen _MMA_ 's attempt to illustrate the DIY look? [03:21] no.. [03:21] ive seen some interesting concepts for it tho [03:21] Toma-: He did some very very good work in accumulating what DIY is to a layman that might not be aware of it. [03:21] hehe [03:22] Toma-: It is evocative of the punk era (and in fact that is where it originated) and generally 'feels' like photocopied and distressed work. [03:22] <_MMA_> Ill get it done. Even if it doesnt make this release. ;) [03:22] :P [03:22] _MMA_: Yeah... _that_ is a great attitude. The will to stick with it and realize that it might not happen is damn respectable and admirable. [03:22] <_MMA_> I gotta. I made hoodies with the distressed logo all over it. :) [03:22] i chucked a couple of my things up on gnome look [03:23] Toma-: Have a look at _MMA_ 's page. [03:23] link? [03:23] Toma-: The hard thing is to try and take the classic stylings and contemporize them possibly. [03:23] <_MMA_> Toma-: you've seen that damn link 100 times. [03:24] ....the wiki link? [03:24] <_MMA_> Si [03:24] _MMA_: Where are you on wallpapers, just so I know that these mocks aren't a complete waste of time (Did that already once this cycle thanks (not with you) :) ). [03:25] Did you see this nilux guys idea for a GTK theme? [03:25] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/DIYConcept/Theme [03:25] I dont think theres a gtk engine that could do it, but it would be rather spiffy [03:26] <_MMA_> troy_s: I got a bunch of wall ideas. Thats really not the problem. Its that damn icon set. Along with the fact that I really dont think out theme fits no matter how flat I make it. :( [03:26] _MMA_: Well... erm... granted the iconscape is pitiful -- what is wrong with offering a contrast on that level? [03:27] _MMA_: The bulk of the execution is going to fall on the standard keystones -- that usplash / logon / wallpaper. [03:27] <_MMA_> I dont know what you mean by the latter half. "contrast on that level"? [03:27] _MMA_: I am just wondering if it will end up being too pedantic and monotonous maybe if it tries to 'be like the bigger picture'? [03:28] _MMA_: Maybe a highly realistic set devoid of the nasty 'hey let's do that hideously dated gloss' thing might work? [03:28] Those icons remind me of the high contrast themes available in KDE and the gnome accessability themes. [03:28] and to a lesser extent, the gtk theme aswell [03:29] <_MMA_> Oh sure, but which. I just started to get the feeling that this concept is too much trial and error than I could handle by myself. Especially where the icons were concerned. [03:30] _MMA_: Well icons are such a strange creature. I am simply thinking hey -- maybe anchor the look with a lovely bold and well designed wallpaper -- round it out with the gdm usplash variant -- and test fly a few icon sets against the wallpaper? [03:31] what if you were to use a icon theme from mattahan (gant/buuf)? [03:32] <_MMA_> I could create the parts, and independently they look good but together some things were starting to look a mess. Thats where I needed halp. Another eye. And while wallpapers are appreciated, it almost seems any monkey can make one. Its much harder to do a icon theme, usplash or GDM. [03:32] <_MMA_> Toma-: While I love them, it wouldnt fly. [03:32] Why not? [03:32] <_MMA_> Too cartoonish. [03:32] buuf [03:32] lol [03:32] i was just looking at them [03:32] fantastic for punk [03:32] lol [03:32] <_MMA_> And Im unsure about the license. [03:33] buuf is so stylized... [03:33] <_MMA_> No. I dont think they fit at all for it. [03:33] _MMA_: Actually, I honestly think the wallpaper is probably the biggest hitchpin to the thing working or not. [03:33] <_MMA_> Beautiful but no. [03:33] * Toma- gets to work on a Buuf+Wallpaper :) [03:33] it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something.. [03:34] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure its key but its easy to get people to make 'em. [03:34] Buuf = "Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License." [03:34] <_MMA_> I needed help on the rest. [03:34] _MMA_: Have you considered trying to get Lith? [03:34] _MMA_: Lith is pretty much spot on is it not? [03:34] <_MMA_> "troy_s: it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something.." I completely agree. And its driving me nuts. [03:35] _MMA_: And who knows... maybe a decently executed contemporary icon set (ack hate to say vista inspirate) or something would provide good contrast in terms of content to almost work? [03:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. I thought about it. Im honestly a little hesitant about asking and unsure if I would get .svg's. (or .ai's) [03:36] _MMA_: Lith is still feels as close to 'yep' but maybe its too much. [03:36] _MMA_: Who knows... maybe ask him? Surely he must know of the buntu's and who knows how he woudl respond. [03:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Problem was with playing with Lith on top of a similarly styled wallpaper is that it got messy. [03:37] <_MMA_> Hard to see the icons on the desktop. [03:37] <_MMA_> In Nautilus they were ok. [03:37] _MMA_: Well that is what I mean (although again, it is hard to know without a decent wallpaper and even then, in context of natilus is probably more important than purely on desky) [03:37] _MMA_: Grr... you typed it before I said it. [03:37] <_MMA_> ;) [03:40] <_MMA_> But I've resigned myself to making it a longer term project. This Hardy theme will come along fine. I removed the gloss but have a slight sheen. Slight gradient. I'm gonna use photos where I can. I have emailed Tonic about the Usplash with concepts. [03:40] _MMA_: Even 'gnomish' might work? [03:41] <_MMA_> I have one guy that did a nice GDM Ill contact again. [03:41] * _MMA_ looks. [03:41] <_MMA_> troy_s: You have a link? [03:41] * _MMA_ cant readily find them. [03:42] _MMA_: I think they are pretty flat toned... and monochromaticish... [03:42] http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gnomish+SVG?content=21296 [03:43] <_MMA_> Ahh yes. I remember. [03:43] its such a hard thing to try and add a compliment to [03:43] <_MMA_> I can hear now the amount of people screaming how ugly it is. [03:43] LOL [03:43] _MMA_: Yeah well they are the same ones voting the ninja ubuntu cof up to 80% [03:43] llooool [03:44] <_MMA_> :) [03:44] _MMA_: Honestly, I would probably worry as hell on the default wallpaper and how to present the Usplash (as the GDM would probably be a wallpaper variant (NOT the same fricking thing)) [03:45] <_MMA_> For the DIY look? [03:45] be sure not to get rid of the gdm "drum" sound, i love it:) [03:45] <_MMA_> hbons: We're talking about Ubuntu Studio. [03:46] oh well:) [03:46] <_MMA_> troy_s: For Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio-Hardy I git this guy in the channel. Not that I like the glossy look but I think there are some interesting ideas in this set. http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Minimal-perception?content=68146&PHPSESSID=7de31c485c5a07c247b67dffbb37e750 [03:46] <_MMA_> s/git/got [03:47] <_MMA_> He sent me some variants with the gloss removed and some color variants. [03:50] _MMA_: I know you have, but you went to kde-look too right? [03:50] <_MMA_> Not lately. [03:51] although i am convinced that if more people spent less time dreaming up names and more time on the work it might be better. [03:51] lol [03:51] <_MMA_> :) [03:52] <_MMA_> And on that note, I'm gonna try to sleep. I'm getting sick and want to try to get to bed before I feel too bad. [03:53] aight [03:53] night [10:05] hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ? [10:23] zniavre: right, I'll get right on that [10:30] hi kwwii [10:31] hi andreasn [10:31] andreasn: how's things? [10:31] what's up? [10:31] hehe, you first :-) [10:31] pretty good, finishing up some work [10:31] yeah, I am still working on putting this presentation together [10:31] I was thinking of trying to learn how to do patches today [10:31] let's see how it goes [10:31] we'll make a geek of you yet [10:31] when were you going to held the presentation? [10:32] dec. 5th [10:32] hope it goes well, and that you're able to decide on the colors [10:32] so you can return home somethime this year :) [10:32] yeah, me too [10:46] hi nothlit [10:46] I have a definite answer on the artwork licence, if anyone is interested [10:47] we will be using cc-sa for the artwork (and no, there is no reason to discuss it as it is not my decision) === Toma-- is now known as Toma- [14:33] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: We wont know anything "from the boss" until after the 5th of December. [14:34] _MMA_:OK Thanks!! [14:34] <_MMA_> No problem. [14:47] I propose all check boxes be replaced with smileys in next release. http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/smiley.png [14:47] :) [14:49] <_MMA_> No. Ponies. [14:49] Hmm. Ill have to work the gradients! lets see if its possible [14:49] <_MMA_> :P === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn [15:14] hi === d33p__ is now known as luisbg [21:01] hi, is this an appropriate channel for discussion usplash customization issues? === cody-somerville_ is now known as somerville32 [23:59] hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ? [23:59] No.