[03:35] <kgoetz> if i blow away 70-persistent-net.rules will it be recreatd next boot?
[03:38] <pteague> anybody have any hardware suggestions for an ubuntu desktop?
[03:38] <kgoetz> what sort of suggestions
[03:40] <ScottK> pteague: Intel video for FOSS video support unless you're a gamer.
[03:40] <kgoetz> ScottK: if your after *F*oss you'll need intel anyway :)
[03:40] <pteague> intel video?  i was thinking nvidia for xvmc
[03:42] <pteague> i'm starting a new job on monday & they're wondering what i want as a workstation... i'm pretty much handling all their web stuff - db, webserver, site, etc
[03:42] <kgoetz> so you *dont* want broadcom network devices :)
[03:43] <kgoetz> you can either go with nvidia and known support, or gamble on AMD getting ATI open sooner rather then later for video
[03:43] <pteague> was thinking amd cpu & nvidia video
[03:44] <kgoetz> amd is ok. not been exactly cutting edge recently (on desktops), but solid  still
[03:44] <kgoetz> and less buggy then intels *grin*
[03:45] <pteague> libc6 works on amd... certain features are borken on intel
[03:49] <kgoetz> thats something worth remember for me i think
[03:52] <pteague> i use chbg on occasion & discovered it wouldn't work on my laptop (intel)...  went back & reinstalled the first 6 disc i had & it worked so i locked the libc6 library... i updated my desktop (amd) & chbg worked... so i thought great! it's fixed.. unlocked on laptop, downloaded updates, & it's broken! hehe
[03:54] <kgoetz> i dont have tha ttool, what is it?
[03:55] <pteague> screensaver, desktop changer...  can use it as a slideshow as well
[03:55] <kgoetz> aaah.
[03:57] <pteague> i realize there's a couple different xscreensaver things that do something similar, but it has a lot of options & the really nice thing about it is i can get it to just display all the images dead center
[05:43] <orochi2> i had a question about apache now that i have my ubuntu server setup (i didnt use the livecd, but the server cd) i was wondering if someone was available for a few questions
[05:46] <kgoetz> !tell orochi2 about ask
[05:48] <orochi2> lol ok good, someone's alive out there. I used to run a gentoo box as a LAMP, I like Ubuntu so far, but i want to do it right. What would be the best way of setting up my website. I find it a pain to deal with the files in /var/www as they are all root:root, what would be the best way to manage those files? Create a virtual host for my .com for the user i use, leave it as root and live with it what would be the best way to go abou
[05:50] <kgoetz> depends. for personal space simply create public_html and put your files in thre
[05:50] <kgoetz> otherwise, look into vhosts (asking about this stuff in #apache would be a good idea too)
[05:51] <orochi2> ok
[05:52] <orochi2> should I leave my vhost as root:root or what would be the owner:group i should have the files be in?
[05:53] <kgoetz> ideally yes, tehy would stay as root, but if you will edit the fils a lot, it might make sense to go with youruser:www-data
[05:53] <orochi2> ok ill look into that
[08:06] <asisak> What should I prefer nowadays if I want to run multiple (web) environments on a (Ubuntu) Linux box?
[08:06] <asisak> E.g., some plone portal(s), some wiki(s) and some other services (like DNS or e-mail)
[08:06] <asisak> Xen might be an overkill, but I am not sure if VServer or something similar is a good idea...
[08:07] <macd> Seperating those services with a VM is a very good idea
[08:08] <macd> Xen is pretty painless to setup on Gutsy now, plus you can just bootstrap a base ubuntu system, then install those services you need only
[08:08] <asisak> You mean install the separate services in separate VMs?
[08:14] <macd> Sure, why not
[08:14] <macd> its a very good way to minimize risk from a securty standpoint also
[08:17] <asisak> Sure, but you have to upgrade each machine, and you run many kernels
[12:57] <_oet> Hallo
[12:58] <pvandewyngaerde> _oet: english here
[12:58] <_oet> Woops, english channel offcourse :P
[12:58] <_oet> my bad ;)
[13:21] <kraut> moin
[13:23] <sommer> kraut: hey
[13:23] <kraut> hi sommer
[13:23] <kraut> interesting surname :)
[13:23] <sommer> kraut: thx
[13:24] <sommer> had it all my life... heh
[13:35] <_oet> I was wondering, whether the support for the current 7.10 server version is completely stopped in 2009 or that security updates will continue to be provided..
[13:40] <firecrotch> _oet: I'm pretty sure that means that there won't be any security updates after that
[13:40] <_oet> ok, thanks for the info :)
[13:41] <firecrotch> _oet:  8.04 will be an LTS release though, if I'm not mistaken
[13:42] <_oet> ok
[13:42] <_oet> i'll keep that in mind
[13:43] <MenZa> It will, firecrotch
[13:43] <firecrotch> thanks, MenZa
[13:44] <firecrotch> _oet: are you planning on using Ubuntu for a webserver or something of that nature?
[14:04] <CyberMad> i want to install gnome.. then i did apt-get install gnome..
[14:05] <CyberMad> now, how to start my gnome?
[14:05] <firecrotch> CyberMad:  startx
[14:05] <pvandewyngaerde> dont you need  ubuntu-desktop ?
[14:06] <sommer> CyberMad: you might check out this forum thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-186298.html
[14:06] <pvandewyngaerde> or  /etc/init.d/gdm start
[14:06] <sommer> it lists all the packages you'll need
[14:06] <CyberMad> ok thanks a lot
[14:07] <CyberMad> so, what is the different between ubuntu-server dan ubuntu-desktop? only on the package?
[14:07] <CyberMad> like ubuntu-desktop doesn't have samba package on cd, etc
[14:07] <CyberMad> is that correct?
[14:10] <pvandewyngaerde> its the packages  for a GUI desktop , a server doesnt need one by default
[14:10] <sommer> CyberMad: yep different packages on the CD, different kernel, different installer
[14:10] <CyberMad> is this what you mean:
[14:10] <CyberMad> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop
[14:10] <CyberMad> sudo apt-get install gdm
[14:10] <CyberMad> sudo /etc/init.d/gdm start
[14:10] <CyberMad> sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[14:11] <CyberMad> well, i just want to run vmware-server on ubuntu-server
[14:11] <CyberMad> actually i don't have any idea about that
[14:12] <CyberMad> i want running windows xp on vmware-server
[14:12] <CyberMad> so everyone can remote that XP
[14:12] <CyberMad> because we don't XP on every computers
[14:12] <CyberMad> but sometime we still need XP
[14:14] <sommer> CyberMad: you should be able to do that on Ubuntu Server
[14:22] <CyberMad> sommer without the GUI ?
[14:22] <CyberMad> sommer have you try the vmware-server ?
[14:23] <sommer> CyberMad: nope I haven't tried vmware myself in quite a while... I think it can though?
[14:23] <sommer> others in this channel I know have
[14:24] <CyberMad> :)
[14:24] <CyberMad> well ok, i will test it this week
[14:24] <CyberMad> thnks
[14:24] <sommer> CyberMad: here's a wiki page on vmware: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Server
[14:24] <sommer> you could try that out and update the page if there's anything missing :)
[14:24] <CyberMad> that's very cool... will help me much.. thanks
[14:24] <sommer> np
[14:34] <_ruben> just curious .. are there any plans whatsoever to support PF_RING on ubuntu (server)? just found catapulta.org, which does incorporate PF_RING, but is still at beta state
[14:37] <firecrotch> _ruben: you ought to be able to enable it in Ubuntu
[14:37] <firecrotch> _ruben: I found a tutorial that works on Debian which would be a good starting point, at least
[14:37] <firecrotch> http://bjou.homeunix.net/blog/2006/12/advanced-packet-capturing-howto-pf_ring-napi-and-extended-libpcap-on-debian-sarge/
[14:39] <_ruben> firecrotch: i know that url .. its a bit outdated since it mentions a cvs repo intead of svn .. and i expect PF_RING to integrate into ubuntu/debian kernels 'nicer' than our current SuSE kernels (old kernels with tons of security backports)
[14:40] <_ruben> bit curious though if there were any plans on actually offering support on it and providing the appropriate kernels/libpcap libs for it
[14:41] <firecrotch> Ah, well, I'm definitely not the person to find out about that from
[15:56] <nealmcb> server team meeting in 4 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting:
[15:56] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[15:59] <sommer> nealmcb: I think they will... can always update it later :)
[16:00] <sommer> the cert statement that is
[16:05] <nxvl_work> isn't today the meeting?
[16:06] <sommer> nxvl_work: yep #ubuntu-meeting
[16:25] <soren> !mda
[16:25] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about mda - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[16:41] <Gargoyle> Can anyone help me reconnect my split-brained drbd?
[16:42] <Gargoyle> I have them both set to secondary/unknown, but can't get them to connect. Not bothered which is primary, only testing at the mo.
[17:00] <ScottK> nealmcb: It's probably worth mentionind that although Postfix is primarily an MTA, it can serve as an MSA and and MDA too.
[17:00] <nealmcb> ahh - got it
[17:02] <soren> MSA?
[17:02] <ScottK> Mail Submission Agent.
[17:02] <soren> Which does what?
[17:02]  * lamont tries to decide if he cares what the 'S' and 'D' stand for
[17:02] <ScottK> MUA -> MSA -> MTA -> MTA -> MDA -> MUA.
[17:03] <nealmcb> so postfix with a smarthost is an msa?
[17:03] <nealmcb> any other msas?
[17:03] <ScottK> I'd say yes, but there are probably protocol police that would disagree.
[17:03] <nealmcb> (anything with a smarthost....)
[17:03] <lamont> MSA means that it listens on the 'submission' port, for MUAs to talk to.
[17:04] <nealmcb> ahh
[17:04] <lamont> MTA means it listens on the 'smtp' port
[17:04]  * ScottK likes lamont's definitions
[17:04] <lamont> MDA means that it delivers to local/virtual/whatever mailboxes, from whence MUAs grab it
[17:04] <lamont> MUA means a user interacts with it directly
[17:05] <lamont> MUI == mail using idiot
[17:05] <lamont> aka, user
[17:05] <soren> So Postfix is an MSA because an MUA can poke stuff into its queue by way of /usr/sbin/sendmail ?
[17:05] <lamont> MUI -> MUA -> MSA -> MTA -> MTA -> MDA -> MUA -> MUI. :-)
[17:05] <keescook> so are pop/imap servers actually MDAs then?
[17:05] <soren> No.
[17:05] <soren> Did my mail not reach the mailing list yet?
[17:05] <lamont> keescook: they don't deliver to mailboxes. they provide access to them
[17:06] <lamont> soren: MSA is, IMO, kinda stupid.
[17:06] <lamont> the concept, that is.
[17:06] <soren> lamont: Agreed.
[17:06] <keescook> soren: no it did, and I thought the same you did -- I was just trying to figure out what to call the pop/imap piece
[17:06] <lamont> an MSA is an MTA that listens on the 'submission' port.
[17:06] <soren> lamont: It's something that only marginally makes sense on a design diagram of postfix and *nowhere* else. :)
[17:06] <keescook> MSA makes sense for ISPs that want to block MTA traffic.  :P
[17:06] <nealmcb> I think the goal of the submission port is to help fight spam by separating submission from transfer at the port leel
[17:06] <lamont> which it, therefore, assumes is an MUA talking to it, not some random MTA, or spamware.
[17:06] <keescook> nealmcb: yup
[17:07] <keescook> so pop/imap is an Mailbox Access Agent?  (between the MDA and the MUA?)
[17:07]  * keescook loves making stuff up
[17:07] <lamont> nealmcb: which does next to nothing for you when the spamware connects to the MSA
[17:07]  * lamont ^5s keeskook.
[17:08] <lamont> what are we gonna make the rest of the letters??
[17:08] <nealmcb> msa?  mui? :-)
[17:08] <soren> ffs...
[17:08] <soren> :p
[17:08] <lamont> nealmcb: I assume that MSA was someone elses.  MUI is all mine.
[17:08] <lamont> soren: ffs is a very nice kernel routine, returning the first set bit in a word
[17:08] <keescook> msa is real (as ScottK says: Mail Submissions Agent)
[17:09] <lamont> MAA... mail authentication agent?
[17:09] <keescook> (without the trailing s)
[17:09]  * nealmcb nods
[17:09] <lamont> MBA: masters of business administration.
[17:09] <soren> lamont: ffs == first f???? set?
[17:09] <nealmcb> mba mail bs agent?  aka spammer?
[17:09] <lamont> find first set
[17:09] <soren> lamont: of course.
[17:09] <ScottK> IIRC there's an Internet Draft somewhere that defines all these.
[17:09]  * lamont was thinking mail breaking agent
[17:09] <nealmcb> same thing
[17:09] <ScottK> Ah, that would be Exchange.
[17:10] <keescook> ah-ha, Mail Retrieval Agent
[17:10] <dthacker> sorry, missed the meeting. when will transcripts be up?
[17:10] <keescook> http://wiki.mutt.org/?MailConcept
[17:10] <lamont> ScottK: stop introducing facts into the discussion (internet draft)
[17:10] <nealmcb> time we all moved to jabber and rss and left this mail morass to die a slow death :-)
[17:10] <lamont> MYA: mame your a**
[17:11] <lamont> hrm... IP-over-bullhorn.
[17:11] <ScottK> Speaking of such, rfc2821bis is in IETF last call now.
[17:13] <nealmcb> keescook: nice one
[17:14] <lamont> ScottK: prior to being voted on, yes?
[17:14] <ScottK> lamont: Yes.
[17:14] <ScottK> So this would be the time to look at it and kvetch.
[17:14] <ScottK> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-06.txt
[17:14] <nealmcb> ScottK: thanks
[17:15] <ScottK> nealmcb: No trouble.
[17:16] <lamont> keescook: I think they're onto us.
[17:17] <keescook> lamont: dangit
[17:43] <nijaba> Table create at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
[17:44] <nijaba> Volunteers should now run to put their names along the best packages ;)
[18:13] <ivoks> hi
[18:13] <ivoks> ScottK: you'll work on amavis?
[18:23] <ivoks> lamont, ScottK ping?
[18:24] <ScottK> ivoks: Yes.
[18:25] <ScottK> ivoks: I think the package itself is in good shape.  I'd be curious if you have comments.
[18:26] <ivoks> defaults are ok
[18:26] <ivoks> from my experience, i had problems only with systems with misconfigured /etc/hosts
[18:26] <ivoks> and that's quite often :/
[18:27] <ivoks> other than that, package is in great shape
[18:27] <ivoks> maybe we could work on some rules for ubuntu
[18:27] <ivoks> i have a dream when amavis will become part of default mail server installation :)
[18:28] <ScottK> Right, well that'd be a big part of the point for moving it to main.
[18:28] <ScottK> I did make a change to make it easier to fix the config if you've got a /etc/hosts problem and don't know Perl syntax.
[18:29] <ivoks> great
[18:30] <ivoks> i'll work on drbd
[18:30] <ivoks> nad maybe we could push postgrey to main too?
[18:31] <ivoks> it had only one CVE entry, IIRC, in couple of years...
[18:31] <ScottK> ivoks: I'm not convinced on postgrey.  I think Greylisting is useful now, but the benifit is only transient.  More and more spammers are retrying now, so it's value is dimishing. I don't see supporting it for 5 years.
[18:31] <ivoks> they are retrying, with same ip
[18:32] <ivoks> that's when other antispam tools kick in
[18:32] <ivoks> i use it and it does more than all other anti spam tools at the moment
[18:32] <ivoks> there are installations where i use it for 2 years
[18:32] <ivoks> 0 problems
[18:33] <ivoks> but i understand your point
[18:33] <ivoks> anti-spam protection is very dynamic area...
[18:35] <sommer> ivoks: speaking of anti-spam I've added a section on Mail Filtering to the server guide... I was wondering if I could send it to you for review?
[18:35] <ScottK> I think adding amavisd-new is a sensible, stable core to allow people to hang whatever they want off of it.
[18:35] <ScottK> ivoks: Do you read postfix-users?
[18:36] <sommer> ScottK: not that I don't value your input, but the more reviews the merrier
[18:36] <ScottK> sommer: Of course.
[18:36] <ivoks> sommer: sure
[18:36] <ivoks> ScottK: no... :)
[18:37] <sommer> ivoks: cool, there's also an update to the Postfix SASL section using Dovecot.
[18:37] <ScottK> ivoks: OK.  There was a funny bit today about an Ubuntu user writing in with a Postfix problem that turned out to be webmin adding 'sudo' to their smtpd_recipient_restrictions.
[18:37] <ivoks> :)
[18:38] <ivoks> i'll check archives :)
[18:38] <ivoks> webmin is evil.
[18:38] <sommer> ivoks: I'll get that to you this evening, thanks again.
[18:38] <ivoks> sommer: great
[18:40] <ivoks> i have to get rid of desktop related packages i maintain :)
[18:40] <ivoks> they hunt me while i'm a sleep :)
[18:40] <ScottK> ivoks: Don't sleep then.  Sleep is for the weak.
[18:41] <ivoks> you can't imagine how little sleep i had last two weeks
[18:42] <ivoks> i'm working on a quite big project... it will go public in 20 days
[18:42] <ScottK> Sounds fun.  I've done things like that.
[18:44] <ivoks> fun... hm, i don't think there's a good word for that :)
[18:46] <ivoks> see you later
[18:51] <nealmcb> sommer: can you send me the mail filtering section also?
[19:02] <sommer> nealmcb: absoluteley
[19:30] <nealmcb> sommer - a section in the server guide on how server differs from desktop (kernel, no x11, etc) would be handy I bet.  those articles from http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3710641 have more detail than we want, but touching on a few of them would make savvy users feel more comfortable
[19:33] <sommer> nealmcb: good idea... I'll add that to the list, and try to get it in before hardy.
[19:36] <nealmcb> dthacker: you can find raw recent meeting logs at http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/
[19:36] <nealmcb> e.g. http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071127_1603.html for today
[19:36] <nealmcb> but those get moved I think later on
[19:37] <nealmcb> sommer: you rock :-)
[19:37] <sommer> heh party!
[20:33] <macd> mathiaz, around?
[20:34] <mathiaz> macd: yes.
[20:35] <macd> I saw the meeting minutes, do you have a link on the wiki to using tasksel?
[20:35] <macd> ohh, and I added a few tihngs to it the other day detailing the exact configuration changes
[20:47] <mralphabet> nijaba: are you around?
[20:48] <mralphabet> nijaba: I am looking at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS and made some minor corrections (spelling).
[20:50] <mralphabet> nijaba: there is one spot that I can't seem to fix.  Under 'Installing VMware Tools', 'Next should ask VMware to mount the VMwareTools CD', VMwareTools shows as a link, but only 'MwareTools' is actually linked.  When I edit the page to correct it, there is no link in the wiki code.
[20:50] <mralphabet> nijaba: so not sure where it is getting the link from, but I thought I would mention it.
[21:42] <nijaba> mralphabet: Thanks for your corrections.  Regarding the Link, I came to the conclusion of a bug in InterWiki...
[21:44] <mathiaz> macd: the documentation I've found about tasksel is its README file
[21:44] <mathiaz> macd: in /usr/share/doc/tasksel/
[22:00] <soren> mralphabet: It's a link because it has at least two capital letters in it separated by lower case letters. It doesn't matter if a page exists with that name.
[22:00] <nijaba> mralphabet: regarding your edit of sudo apt-get install lamp-server^, the ^ is not a mistake, it is actually required :)
[22:01] <mralphabet> nijaba: oh, heh, sorry about that ;(
[22:01] <nijaba> mralphabet: np.  soren just fixed the link btw: VMware{{{}}}Tools
[22:02] <mralphabet> nijaba: I'll put the ^ back in
[22:03] <nijaba> mralphabet: thanks
[22:22] <macd> mathiaz, thanks.