=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting [08:06] moin === Shely is now known as MJ086 === ogra1 is now known as ogra === Ng_ is now known as Ng [11:06] @schedule Singapore [11:06] Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 29 Nov 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 30 Nov 00:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 03:00: Art Team | 05 Dec 00:00: Server Team meeting === _czessi is now known as Czessi [12:07] ogra, Nice collection of Edubuntu video by the guy in Ohio... [12:08] yeah [12:09] ogra, you did good. BTW is the Edubuntu mafia meeting? (I have learned to distrust the Fridge :^) [12:10] no idea when, but it should be today :) [12:10] I'm not sure but I think this one is a late one [12:12] stgraber, thanks, I can get to the early ones, the late ones elude me... [12:14] ogra, yea you gotta run with those videos... Maybe sync the docs up with the video? [12:14] ogra, you know me, just here to cause trouble! [12:16] flint, dtrask already said he'd look into fleshing out the wiki === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === ogra1 is now known as ogra === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting === ogra1 is now known as ogra === calc_ is now known as calc [15:59] * bdmurray looks around [15:59] * heno waves to bdmurray [16:00] good day! [16:00] hi! [16:00] morning! [16:00] hello :) [16:00] hello [16:00] Hi all [16:00] greetings and salutations! [16:01] calc: are we clashing with a platform meeting again? :/ [16:01] or are you here for QA? [16:01] oh i am probably in the wrong channel, oops :) [16:02] :) [16:02] * calc runs away ;-) [16:02] how is the NM bug day going? [16:03] heno: is going well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20071128 [16:03] a bit slow [16:03] right, I'll join in as well after this [16:03] well I just woke up [16:03] I'm just getting started for the day here [16:03] let do a short meeting then [16:03] pedro_: do you have a stock reply for new ones? [16:04] indeed, team OR is quite time shifted [16:04] * bdmurray is happy to move to a better tz [16:04] (says heno sitting nearly on the prime meridian ;) ) [16:04] bdmurray: no i don't, I've just asked for the log files and point some other to debugging crashed procedures [16:05] ok, let's start [16:05] #startmeeting [16:05] Meeting started at 16:05. The chair is heno. [16:05] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:05] [TOPIC] UDS activity report - I (heno) should write a summary of the QA sessions at UDS (but I wasn't there) Could those who were please send me 2-3 lines on the main results in QA from UDS? [16:05] New Topic: UDS activity report - I (heno) should write a summary of the QA sessions at UDS (but I wasn't there) Could those who were please send me 2-3 lines on the main results in QA from UDS? [16:06] just a few comments here in the meeting would be good even so I can scrape those together [16:06] I've been trying to pull this out of the air, but failing :/ [16:06] I've been quite impressed with how "TEST CASE:" in the description is taking off [16:07] oh, excellent! [16:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs says the most important stuff really [16:08] (now updated with short descriptions) [16:08] pedro_, ogasawara: any major take-away points from UDS? [16:09] besides the value of meeting everyone [16:09] heno: for me just the feedback on the specs was the most important as well as networking with some of the non-canonical folks [16:09] well i do like a lot the graphs i'm really impressive with new ones :-) [16:10] ok. btw, this is intended for a post-UDS write-up to the community [16:10] agreed, much more clear [16:10] ok, thanks, I'll work from that [16:11] [TOPIC] Status of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations [16:11] New Topic: Status of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations [16:11] heno: I wrote mdz some bullet points for the UDS closing blurb and will forward them to you [16:11] I promised an update on this [16:12] bdmurray: excellent, just what I need [16:12] The nominated bugs for Gutsy are 290 now, down from 340 when I first looked at this [16:12] so a bit slow going still [16:13] ogasawara: Is it correct that I should basically close all 2.6.22 bugs as wontfix at this point? [16:13] hello [16:13] I might be able to whip up a query that could help with the milestoned ones [16:13] (using a copy of your stock response) [16:13] heno: pretty much unless they are security or major show stoppers [16:13] hello stgraber! [16:13] hey stephane! [16:14] ogasawara: ok, I've been too soft I guess [16:14] I think with the 2.6.22 it would be best to ask them to test with Alpha 1 when it comes out [16:14] I'll add for them to email ogasawara with any complaints ;) [16:14] :) [16:15] bdmurray: agree, though that is still 2.6.22 though right? or do we have .23 or .24 now? [16:15] ogasawara: ^ [16:15] what is the current hardy kernel? [16:15] 2.6.22 [16:15] I think, just a sec [16:15] There is a 2.6.24 package now though [16:15] with 0 bugs! [16:16] I'm using 2.6.22-14-generic on hardy [16:16] and possibly 4 users [16:16] and 0 packages [16:16] ah [16:16] perhaps ask people to test when .24 is being distributed [16:16] and file against it [16:17] yup, I've tagged them hardy-kernel-candidate [16:17] ogasawara: are you proceeding with that on the remaining Gutsy bugs? [16:17] heno: yes [16:18] ok, cool [16:18] [TOPIC] Specs approved for Hardy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs [16:18] New Topic: Specs approved for Hardy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs [16:18] all the specs on that page are now approved [16:19] how should we track their progress within the team? Make it a regular topic in these meetings? [16:20] Yes, maybe having a spec status topic every 2 meetings [16:20] sounds find with me [16:20] s/find/fine [16:20] stgraber: +1 [16:21] +1 [16:21] right. We also have a clash with the platform team for this meeting time+location every two weeks [16:22] that again raises the case for changing meeting times every 2 meetings [16:22] so that more people can attend [16:22] I'd propose a later meeting time every two weeks [16:23] attendance can be optional for those in awkward tz, like liw [16:23] how much later? a couple of hours? [16:23] right, stgraber you wanted 1800 or 1900? [16:24] 1900 is better, 1800 is ok [16:24] pedro_: does 1900 work for you? [16:25] heno: sure i don't have any problem with it :-) [16:25] ok, cool. I'll email liw about this (he's at a debian QA summit this week) [16:26] * dholbach hugs the QA Mafia - you guys deserve it. :-) [16:26] * heno hugs dholbach :) [16:26] :-) [16:26] ogasawara, bdmurray: you ok with 1900? [16:27] heno: yup, works for me [16:27] heno: no problems where [16:27] [AGREED] every other meeting, starting next week will be st 1900 UTC [16:27] AGREED received: every other meeting, starting next week will be st 1900 UTC [16:27] . . . I am? [16:28] watch out for glitches in the matrix [16:28] [TOPIC] Alpha 1 ISO testing - There is no freeze this time, but the key images should get a basic sanity test (basically check that they boot) [16:28] New Topic: Alpha 1 ISO testing - There is no freeze this time, but the key images should get a basic sanity test (basically check that they boot) [16:28] deja vu [16:28] all over again [16:28] btw, fridge should be updated (that way I'll have them added to my evolution, ical rocks) [16:29] the fridge has a poor memory [16:29] as do I, which makes for a poor combination [16:29] any volunteers to make sure the fridge is updated with this? [16:30] it remembers 4 weeks at a time or something [16:31] we need to contact corey? [16:31] ok, I'll email the editors and see if that's improved [16:31] ah ok [16:31] the editors address I think [16:32] ok, alpha 1 testing [16:33] just pinged slangasek to get his view on what sort of testing level we want for this [16:33] and when it's estimated due [16:33] mhz: greetings! [16:34] ok, I'm renamming some milestones on the tracker and will add the Hardy Alpha 1 one just after that [16:34] hey heno! [16:34] stgraber: great thanks [16:35] I'll ask steve when I catch him and post to the QA list [16:35] as we'll now use Alpha and no funny names, it'll be : Hardy Alpha X and I'm renamming Gutsy's to Gutsy Tribe X [16:35] bug again, we'll just do some light testing of this one [16:35] and hour or so of work from each of us on Friday/Monday should do [16:36] any other topics? [16:37] I wanted to mention a tip I rediscoverd [16:37] I had a phone call with nand (Nicolas) and we decided that we'll try to have a working improved QA-Poll and QA-Tracker for early 2008 [16:37] * nand waves [16:37] stgraber, nand: sounds good [16:38] bdmurray: go ahead [16:38] currently all the work is done in a devel branch, that's lot of work for re-organizing everything and there will be a lot of things that will be broken for some time there [16:38] right [16:38] So I've stopped assigning bugs to myself that are Incomplete but then it becomes more challenging to find bugs that are Incomplete and 4 weeks old and without a response [16:39] Unless you have a specific package to query on then you can do something like 'bugnumbers -p linux-source-2.6.22 --status Incomplete --lc="u:brian-murray&d:2007-10-26" [16:40] where --lc is 'last comment' I take it [16:40] heno: that is correct [16:41] This could be handy 4 weeks after today with n-m bugs [16:42] indeed, but with no package? [16:42] the problem becomes churn time I guess [16:43] The janitor should do this automatically someday . . . [16:43] bdmurray: have you filed a wishlist bug for that? [16:43] In regards to "no package" if you mean bugs without a package there are ways around it [16:44] no, I mean when you don't want to specify a pkg [16:45] ok, I think we are done [16:45] I haven't tried it yet but "-l https://bugs.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/+commentedbugs" instead of -p should work [16:46] heno: what is the status of qa.ubuntu.com? [16:46] bdmurray: in limbo (as always). I'll go to London on Tuesday and try to corner the IS team :) [16:47] we are just waiting for a dedicated server [16:47] #endmeeting [16:47] Meeting finished at 16:47. [16:48] stgraber asks me every week, and I rarely have good answers :( [16:48] :) [16:48] when I talked to elmo at UDS he thought it was pretty straight forward [16:48] but I don't know of any blockers now apart from IS time and attention [16:49] bdmurray: it is! [16:50] heno: the "-l" bit worked thanks! [16:50] It seems there are some I can close [16:51] cool [16:52] * heno goes to write up a meeting summary while it's fresh [16:52] Do we have a package for next Wednesday? [16:52] Maybe ubiquity or Xorg? [16:52] which one have more bugs at the moment? [16:52] * heno half-jokingly suggests https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations [16:53] xorg has 205 new [16:53] that question should perhaps be a regular topic at the meeting too [16:53] ubiquity 350 [16:53] let's go for ubiquity then [16:53] that seems to settle that one [16:54] I'm waiting on one other possibilty for next week with the US LoCo Education stuff [16:54] But if that doesn't pan out then we'll do ubiquity [16:54] bdmurray: what channel is the US LoCo triage thing tonight? [16:54] if so let's make sure Evan is notified so he can be around [16:54] ogasawara: #ubuntu-us [16:55] was asac informed of today's bugday? [16:55] yes [16:55] ok good [16:55] I'll make a wider announcement for next week tomorrow or Friday [16:56] The last 2 were rather short notice [16:57] bdmurray: btw, about network-manager what do you think of adding a "vpn" tag ? as the network-manager can also be used as VPN client and then ~20% of the bugs are related to the VPN part [16:57] stgraber: that sounds great! could you add it to the 20071128 wiki? [16:58] sure === Adri2000_ is now known as Adri2000 === heno_ is now known as heno [20:01] *bong* [20:01] * RichEd waves to highvoltage ogra LaserJock stgraber [20:02] and hi effie_jayx [20:02] RichEd, ;) [20:02] o/ [20:02] * highvoltage also waves and says hi to all the edubuntero's [20:02] * RichEd grabs his tea while we wait for the others to surface [20:03] man, somehow I can't seem to upload a package under 30MB :/ [20:04] you like to work with big packages? [20:04] * RichEd winks to highvoltage ;) [20:04] it's not always the size of a package that ocunts [20:05] * highvoltage could've delivered it better if he was more awake first time [20:05] * LaserJock was gonna say something like "you would know" but decides not to [20:05] hey!!! [20:05] highvoltage: was that misspelling above freudian ? [20:05] sounds irish [20:05] ogra: ding ? [20:05] anyway... [20:05] RichEd: oops, I haven't even noticed, no just uncordinated fingers [20:06] why are our Edubuntu meetings alway go downhill when highvoltage is around? [20:06] s/are/do/ [20:06] it's the shock [20:07] *bzzzt* [20:07] must be something happens when two south african's get together on IRC [20:07] ogratjie!!! [20:07] well if highvoltage is tired, and ogra is not in ... let's start with community so highvoltage can fall asleep sooner [20:07] LaserJock: you should see our local lug channel! [20:07] highvoltage: tell us about the drupal site [20:08] RichEd: new'ish theming based on fridge theme is at http://jono.co.za/drupal [20:08] I want to put it on the edubuntu.org site, but awaiting on Znarl/elmo just to fix some simple permissions [20:08] (feel free to nudge them on, there is an issue for this on RT) [20:08] highvoltage: and will the existing content all fit into the new theme ? [20:08] then it could get wrapped over the current edubuntu.org [20:08] any reworking required ? [20:09] RichEd: most of it, only minor adjustments will have to be made [20:09] RichEd: the front page will have some quick remaking, with some inspiration from the xubuntu.org site and ubuntu.com [20:09] and on a sustaining interest, should we rework some of the front pages to give updated content and new language ... [20:10] otherwise people may see the new theme as a paint job over the old body [20:10] RichEd: but as soon as I have that permissions right again, I cna do the initial facelisft [20:10] RichEd: well, pips1 has always said that we should get the frontpage a dynamic page [20:10] may as well use the new look & feel to launch new refreshed content [20:10] RichEd: I think we're at a stage where we're ready for that [20:11] * LaserJock wants to see the youtube videos on the front page [20:11] so ... when do you think you'll be ready to go with the new theme, and then we can work towards that date for content revamping ? [20:11] LaserJock: seriously? do you have any candidate videos? [20:11] LaserJock: me no like youtube video screens on a default page [20:11] highvoltage: yes, somebody did like 10 videos that are awesome [20:12] RichEd: no? [20:12] but a high prominence link to them ... yes [20:12] but people want bling!! :-) [20:12] RichEd: we were ready the past weekend. we can get going as soon as the canonical-sysadmins spent 2 mins on that server [20:12] nothing says "serious professional OS" like youtube videos on the frontpage [20:12] ;-) [20:12] LaserJock: perhaps a big videos-button on the frontpage that contain embedded videos? [20:13] LaserJock: hah [20:13] we can go with a vote ... but i have a hangup about 7000 feet long pages on myspace with 345 youtube screens [20:13] highvoltage: yeah, I've done it with Fridge [20:13] makes my firefox slow downnnnnn [20:13] RichEd: well, it can be done right you know [20:13] RichEd: one of Jane's pages? [20:13] * highvoltage ducks [20:13] hehe [20:13] highvoltage: she is next to me ... bust dude [20:13] hehe! [20:14] LaserJock: what are these big uploads? kde-edu? [20:14] highvoltage: > as soon as the canonical-sysadmins spent 2 mins on that server < you mean it will change when they do, or is that a "staging server" test ? [20:14] I did gcompris [20:15] apparently I screwed up gcompris for gutsy [20:15] RichEd: when they do it, I can upload that theme, will take about 5 minutes max, then another 20 mins or so just making sure everything fits in [20:15] and left it without translations or something like that [20:15] so I'm getting everything fixed up [20:15] RichEd: doing a basic revamp of the frontpage to look nice with the theme... maybe an hour or so [20:15] RichEd: and then making things more dynamic, I think that will be an ongoing process [20:16] RichEd: lots of incremental changes to make it more dynamic would be good [20:16] highvoltage: I've had a 80MB upload 36MB upload and if I do KDE Edu ~ 30MB upload [20:16] LaserJock: shew [20:16] highvoltage: good think I'm not in AU [20:17] I just let my DSL go for a while [20:17] AU? [20:17] australia and their capped bandwidth [20:17] ah. we have that here too. and our caps are even lower than in .au [20:18] typical dsl accounts are capped at 2GB or 3GB a month (total for up and down) [20:18] yucky [20:18] highvoltage: well can we work towards a specific "release date" and chat about the content update & rework before then ? [20:18] yeah I attended a protest against our telkom monopoly recently. most people don't care about doing anything about it though [20:18] RichEd: it entiredly depends on sysadmins [20:19] RichEd: we could, but I don't know how long the sysadmins will take [20:19] RichEd: could be days, could be months :-) [20:19] RichEd: should we target it for Wednesday next week? [20:19] LaserJock: well then I'd prefer to set a date with them as an official release, and get it queued up for then [20:19] RichEd: that gives us a week, to be safe [20:20] RichEd: I'll do some more nagging tomorrow, hopefully they can do it then [20:20] Znarl is nice and gives in to pressude easily. :) [20:20] pressure, even [20:21] highvoltage: could we make it 2 weeks ... i'd like to add a few sections ... as well as revamp the old stuff [20:21] RichEd: yep [20:21] I want a high prominence section on "Why Edubuntu" [20:22] answered from the perspective of each: [20:22] - a student [20:22] - a teacher [20:22] - a school [20:22] - a education district [20:22] - an OEM system builder [20:22] RichEd: ok, that sounds like a vgraeat idea [20:23] wil you gather the perspectives? [20:23] not a huge amount of work, but would like to get the basic value points in place\ [20:23] *will [20:23] highvoltage: yep ... there is obviously a core set of values ... [20:23] * free bundled apps [20:23] * ease of use [20:23] * free os [20:24] so those will be common points, but things like the OEM have a few special perspectives ... [20:24] an edubuntu-users email could probably generate some ideas [20:24] good idea, and it will also draw in the larger community to participate in this [20:25] i.e. you can legally pre-install Ubuntu and ship your machines for the same price but much higher purchaser value (and hence demand) but also a legal answer to those B*sh sponsored MSFT piracy cops [20:26] and also want to add a nice font page mini-pic and link to "meet the edubuntu ambassador" [20:26] oh dear. [20:26] :) [20:26] this is my theory ... bear with me for a min: [20:26] we need a smooth process to uptake new volunteer effort ... [20:27] but at the moment ... we do not have this nice and friendly ... [20:27] hmm, currently we have virtually no process,it's somtheing I've thought about, but have not put enought effort into [20:27] so if we have a human interface, (highvoltage), with a nice pic and a little nackground as to who you are ... then people will see you as being aproachable [20:28] *background not nackground [20:28] so if someone via email or in the channel says: "would love to help" .. we can send them to you ... [20:28] I wouldn't mind doing that, but won't people think I'm an asshole for having a pic up there? it's like people who have their faces on business cards [20:28] so that you can guide them as to where they fit [20:28] hmmm... [20:29] highvoltage: we need a welcome person, who a schoolteacher or learner would be happy to send an email to [20:29] ok, I think we can make it work [20:29] yeah, people seem to be real happy to send me emails *sigh* [20:29] :p [20:29] this amount of involvement is temporary ... we use you while we build a decent welcome room [20:30] ok, sounds interesting, I think we can make it work [20:30] a welcome room, that sounds interesting [20:30] i can also ask for a unique email address so you can filter the mails ... [20:30] or we could even use a form on the site with some checkboxes to identify interest / skill [20:30] that's actually a very good idea [20:30] that would do some pre-processing [20:31] an ambassador@edubuntu.org would work well,because if someone needs to take over, the email can just redirect to the new person in the future [20:31] you are a ( ) student ( ) teacher ( ) activist [20:31] highvoltage: (yep thought of that) [20:31] i can [ ] attend events [ ] do artwork [ ] program [20:32] yes, it would be nice to build up a matrix of skills that we have in the community [20:32] that may help with the building of an automated process / or welcome room (page i mean) with the right volunteer sections [20:32] if someone sees a task and thinks "hey I could do that" we have more chance of them wanting to join in [20:32] yes, I thought that a "welcome room" would be nice to introduce new people to the team [20:33] I mean, everyone wants to know who LaserJock is [20:33] there could be pictures and mini-profiles of people who are currently/recently active in the welcome room [20:33] and also some profiles of other volunteers ... so people get to know what sort of people are in the community [20:33] snap [20:33] yes, snap indeed [20:34] so ... that is what you and I can work on ... the formal process ... but unitl then we point people to you [20:34] *until [20:34] ok [20:34] highvoltage: haha, nobody cares about who I am :-) [20:35] ambassador@edubuntu.org can then pass on to someone else, and you can mentor them [20:35] people who have emailed us so far has always been nice so far, that's a good sign at least [20:35] LaserJock: come on! everyone always asks about LaserJock! [20:35] pfft [20:35] ok, so I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for a sec [20:36] LaserJock: go for it [20:36] I've also set up the following specs: [20:36] * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/education-wiki-people-and-group-pages [20:36] 1) you gotta have mentors and things for people to do if they want to contribute [20:36] * highvoltage was thinking the same thing, re #! [20:36] 2) most people will use it as a support request/bug submission system [20:36] #1 [20:36] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/education-launchpad-groups [20:37] LaserJock: yeah, but whatever you do, ever... people will try to use it for support! [20:37] sure [20:37] to some degree [20:38] but making it easy for people to do the wrong thing doesn't help [20:38] LaserJock: at least, if we advertise it as a contributions thingy, then we can tell people how they can fix it themselves, and help getting it fixed in edubuntu itself. we could take advantage of it and use it to lure those people in [20:38] LaserJock: I realise I'm being too optimistic there, but I just have to counter the devils advocate ;) [20:38] LaserJock: yeah [20:38] LaserJock: what do you suggest? [20:39] ok, so perhaps Ambassador is not the right terminology [20:39] perhaps having this on a "How to help" page [20:39] and calling it a Contribution Helpdesk or something [20:40] LaserJock: we can play with language, but my feeling is that people would like to "meet a real person" to engage first off [20:40] I'm not sure we're set up for "give us your questions?" [20:40] being pointed to a list of options is far less immediate ... [20:40] RichEd: unless that person is unresponsive and they get redirected around and around [20:40] think of it as a call center [20:41] it's nice to get a helpful person on the phone [20:41] you know if we are in the channel and someone says they would like to help, they are often busy with their own issues & problems [20:41] it's real pain in the butt to get put on hold only to get get shoved around to different departments, etc. [20:41] sending them to a "contrubute list" can make them think ... cool i'll come back later to fill in the form [20:41] and never do [20:42] sending them to a real person has more chance of hooking them [20:42] (my opinion) [20:42] maybe [20:43] although my pessimistic view might be that people who can't figure out how to use a list are unlikely to contribut much [20:43] this is an interesting discussion, but I need to get some sleep, have to be at client premisses real early tomorrow morning. perhaps we should think about this and discuss it again Friday'ish? [20:43] LaserJock: some people are timid ... not "un-useful" [20:43] highvoltage: fine ... no problem [20:43] ! ping ogra again ! [20:44] RichEd: agreed, but timidity can make them unuseful [20:44] LaserJock: I think your points are completely valid, and if we address them properly, we could make things work [20:44] so we shouldn't make it unnecessarily difficult for sure [20:44] LaserJock: it's true that some people may be scared off by process and procedure, but we could do a little hand holding [20:44] but we also have to look at gain vs. cost [20:44] LaserJock: so let's have a human there to judge their usefulness [20:44] and tell them to be brave and unafraid :) [20:45] yes perhaps [20:45] LaserJock: if they still feel that it's too much for them to be part of the community, then that's fine if they want to move on, we'll just have to find ways to maximise our retention rate [20:45] I just don't think we maybe should invest a lot of effort into it initially [20:45] LaserJock: and make sure that it's not becuase of problems caused on our side [20:45] general questions: so w.r.t. spec above and community revitalisting, how do we ensure that the launchpad groups are meaningful & keep them active ? [20:45] if we suddenly find that there are a lot of peopel who want to help but got scared away we can do more [20:45] LaserJock: start small... baby steps? [20:45] highvoltage: yep, baby steps [20:46] What team is this? [20:46] RichEd: in general I'd say getting rid of a lot of the groups would help [20:46]