[00:14] <ScottK> LaserJock: I'd say that KDE3 will be the default for Hardy, so that's premature.  There is still KDE3 bugfixing happening, just at a slow rate.
[00:17] <LaserJock> ScottK: right, but KDE upstream says the will be fixing it for KDE4 and it doesn't look like they will do anything for KDE3
[00:18] <ScottK> If that's true for a specific bug, then I think that's fine, but not as a general rule.
[00:18] <LaserJock> right
[01:07]  * bobesponja_ is back.
[03:15] <nixternal> are we releasing on time tomorrow?
[03:15] <nixternal> anything super important you want in the release notes, speak up, or forever hold your peace
[03:16] <LaserJock> nixternal: hiya
[03:16] <nixternal> wasabi homeskillet
[03:17] <nixternal> sittin' in class learning some Ajax
[03:17] <nixternal> and not the cleaning stuff, the javascript stuff :p
[03:17] <Jucato> wow ajax
[03:17] <Jucato> hiya nixternal, LaserJock!
[03:17] <nixternal> wasabi Jucato
[03:18] <LaserJock> hi Jucato!
[03:18] <Jucato> wasabi homeskillet... that just reminded me how hungry I am :/
[03:18] <nixternal> Jucato: remember how I told you about doing my release notes locally and what not?
[03:18] <Jucato> nixternal: yeah
[03:18] <nixternal> well, I decided to rm -rf ~/downloads/*
[03:18] <nixternal> and it was in there :)
[03:18] <Jucato> O.o
[03:18] <nixternal> hehe
[03:18] <Jucato> -_-
[03:18] <nixternal> easy to recreate, no worries
[03:18] <Jucato> 2nd time you managed to rm yourself :)
[03:18] <nixternal> ya
[03:18] <nixternal> probably way more than that
[03:19] <Jucato> last time I know was your school project :)
[03:19] <ScottK> nixternal: I doubt we care at this point, but the GPG and S/MIME by default stuff is currently broken unless Lure got another kdepim upload done today to fix it.
[03:19] <nixternal> heh, you and the gpg/s/mime stuff :)
[03:19] <Jucato> hm... I'm quite starving.. brb..
[03:19] <nixternal> me too
[03:20] <Jucato> time for some cordon bleu... (can't spell it right)
[03:20] <Jucato> :)
[03:22] <ScottK> Well apparently one needs to watch this stuff full time or it gets forgotten when someone does merges.
[03:32]  * nixternal goes home
[05:07] <nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Beta1/Kubuntu   <-- got any reviewers?
[05:10] <ScottK> Sure
[05:11] <LaserJock> nixternal: Beta1?
[05:11] <nixternal> isn't that what it is?
[05:11] <ScottK> nixternal: While I'm reading, you ought to check this one out: http://www.cheatneutral.com/
[05:11] <ScottK> nixternal: Alpha
[05:12] <nixternal> shite
[05:12] <LaserJock> you know, Beta's a long ways down the road
[05:12] <nixternal> don't touch the page, moving it :)
[05:12] <Jucato> (moving moving moving...)
[05:12] <LaserJock> shesh, good thing we have proofreaders ;-)
[05:13] <LaserJock> gumba over here is gonna get everybody excited
[05:13] <nixternal> ScottK: what the hell is that site? hahaha
[05:13]  * Jucato waits for it to be moved so he can proofread too :)
[05:13] <Jucato> lol! cheatneutral :)
[05:14] <nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu  <-- much better :)
[05:14] <ScottK> nixternal: Spoof on carbon offsetting.  Pretty good, huh.
[05:14]  * Jucato wonders if that's a firefox there.... :)
[05:14] <nixternal> ahh, hahahahaha, that is a good one there...I didn't even catch that
[05:14] <Jucato> nixternal: heading still says BETA 1
[05:14] <LaserJock> ScottK: I saw that the other day, can't believe somebody took the time to create that site
[05:14] <nixternal> shush, I am fixing that...I just renamed the page
[05:15] <Jucato> lol
[05:16] <ScottK> nixternal: How about Kaffeine codecs autoinstallation?  See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2007-November/002054.html
[05:16] <nixternal> now its fixed
[05:16] <nixternal> codecs aye
[05:17] <Jucato> "Pre-release version of Hardy are NOT encouraged for anyone " - s/version/versions/
[05:17] <nixternal> so all the codec autoinstall does is install libxine1-ffmpeg now?
[05:18] <nixternal> so I am guessing if you go to open up a file with this it will automatically install the codec then? since there isn't any documentation for it worth a damn?
[05:21] <Jucato> "The latest updates for KNetworkManager in the Hardy Heron..." -- in Hardy Heron
[05:21] <Jucato> hmmm... knm has added support for PPP... but still no PPPoE ADSL? O.o
[05:21] <nixternal> codecs included, and I hate the name "Hardy Heron" by the way..it is damn tough to keep typing
[05:22] <LaserJock> "development cycle, represent" -> "development cycle, represents" ?
[05:22] <Jucato> damn! I missed that...
[05:22] <Jucato> !ohmy | Jucato
[05:23] <LaserJock> yeah, throw a quarter in the swear jar
[05:23] <nixternal> that's what you get for copy and pasting that top part...it needs to be rewritten anyways
[05:23] <Jucato> hm... I kinda find it weird that we're just announcing NTFS read/write support now... even if it's already enabled since Gutsy... but since we didn't announce it back then...
[05:24] <nixternal> Jucato: well if it was enabled in Gutsy, it sure as hell didn't work for anyone at the Gutsy install fest that installed Kubuntu, and plus there is a recent changelog that says it was added in a recent update
[05:25] <Jucato> hm... maybe ntfs-3g was just installed by default... but not enabled? :/
[05:25] <nixternal> you could read NTFS drives if your machine felt like it, but you couldn't write to it
[05:25] <nixternal> ya, it wasn't enabled for us
[05:25] <Jucato> us = Kubuntu? but installed and enabled for Ubuntu?
[05:25] <LaserJock> I'm pretty sure it was in the Ubuntu announcement
[05:26] <Jucato> yeah. I showed it before.
[05:26] <nixternal> which I couuld care less if it is enabled or not...I enjoyed watching the ntfs-3g guy showing it off at a LUG meeting and it destroyed the NTFS partition on his laptop
[05:26] <Jucato> and on a fresh Gutsy install, I got ntfs-3g installed by default... but didn't want to test it :)
[05:26] <nixternal> it was enabled for Ubuntu, but it wasn't enabled for Kubuntu
[05:26]  * Jucato doesn't "own" the Windows partition... so better not mess around there
[05:26] <Jucato> aah... phooey :P
[05:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: really? how awful *cough*sweet
[05:27] <nixternal> and if you have vista on your partition, which many people do nowadays, and use ntfs-3g, watch out now
[05:27] <nixternal> LaserJock: hahaha, ya we all about peed ourselves laughing at him
[05:27] <nixternal> he said that was the first time he ever seen it, yet we had 3 other people reproduce it with vista on the 1st partition
[05:27] <Jucato> poor guy... but serves him right :P
[05:28] <nixternal> ya, but it didn't serve the newbs right who wanted to dual boot linux on their machines :(
[05:28] <nixternal> this guy came to the meeting decked with a red fedora and everything...and left with a bit of humiliation
[05:29] <nixternal> he will be at the meeting on Saturday, and I am going to ask him if he feels like wrecking another ntfs partition just for fun..then I will buy him a beer afterwards :)
[05:30] <nixternal> Riddell: here you go mastah -> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu !!! no screenies though, hope that is OK...I will get my screeny box up and running this week so I can get some good ones for the next release notes
[05:31] <LaserJock> nixternal: you try the KDE4 LiveCD yet?
[05:31] <nixternal> nope
[05:31] <nixternal> I build from svn, so using the LiveCD would be regression for me unfortunately
[05:32] <LaserJock> pfft
[05:32] <nixternal> and I am trying to use KDE 4 100% of the time now..I am at about 95% full time usage
[05:32] <LaserJock> cool
[05:32] <LaserJock> and it actually all builds? :-)
[05:32] <nixternal> 5% being when I give presentations
[05:32] <nixternal> all but some parts of extragear build perfectly
[05:33] <nixternal> only thing I use out of extragear though is for plasma, and that all builds fine
[05:33] <yuriy> nixternal: you have it set up to build with your regular account? or do you install it systemwide?
[05:33] <nixternal> regular account
[05:34] <nixternal> I am going to do a server install, and then build a system wide setup with it
[05:37] <Jucato> (sounds familiar...)
[05:37] <Jucato> :)
[05:37] <nixternal> ya, you stole the idea from me...I patented it btw, so I think you owe me money
[05:38] <Jucato> I can argue that I've done that since KDE 3.5.x :P
[05:38] <nixternal> I can argue I have done that since 1.x :p
[05:38] <Jucato> since Windows 3.1 even!
[05:38] <nixternal> hell, I used to use Slackware remember :D
[05:38] <Jucato> bwahahah!
[05:38] <nixternal> hahahaha
[05:38] <nixternal> ass
[05:39] <nixternal> my first computer I bought came with 3.1...but nothing worked on it
[05:39] <nixternal> researching "how to fix windows" led me to Linux
[05:39] <Jucato> I had fun with 3.1... that was my world back then. of course MS-DOS was my first OS :)
[05:40] <Jucato> grrr! now I have to monitor the news... stupid rebels.. :(
[05:40] <Jucato> bbl...
[05:48] <ScottK> nixternal: I've used Gutsy Kubuntu LiveCDs a couple of times to do A/V scans on Windows machines with NTFS partitions with no trouble (including writing to them).  There was one extra bit I had to install to make it easy to mount them, but that's it.
[05:49]  * ScottK is trying to remember his first OS.
[05:49] <ScottK> It was something before CP/M.
[05:58] <nixternal> the first OS in our house that I remember was Unix Version 7 when my mom worked for ComDisco
[05:59] <ScottK> Well the first thing in our house was a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model i (with 4K RAM).
[05:59] <LaserJock> hmm, my first computer was a 386 with DOS and shortly thereafter Windows 3.1
[06:00] <nixternal> hehe, that was the first computer I really played with
[06:00] <LaserJock> I'm a newb
[06:00] <ScottK> Youngster
[06:00] <nixternal> ScottK: do you remember the Tandy RS-<can't remember model number>...I swore they called it a trash80, but it was just a very streamlined silver and black keyboard that you would hook up to your tv
[06:00]  * Jucato grumbles and mumbles...
[06:00] <nixternal> I need to google for it
[06:01] <nixternal> my dad worked for Panasonic at the time and they were in cahoots with Tandy at the time and he brought about 100 of these damn keyboards home...everyone in the neighborhood had a computer
[06:01] <ScottK> That's the one.  Trash 80 was the colloquial name for TRS-80.  It fit.
[06:01] <nixternal> ya
[06:01] <nixternal> hahaha
[06:01] <ScottK> My Dad decided the kids needed a computer for Christmas.
[06:01] <nixternal> I had the big ass trash 80 to start with
[06:02] <nixternal> then I had an atari, then the vic20 and then the commodore64
[06:02] <ScottK> He knew about TRS-80 and Apple ][
[06:02]  * LaserJock has never even seen an atari or commodore64
[06:02] <ScottK> One was $600 and the other was $1350.  Guess which one we got?
[06:02] <nixternal> hehe
[06:03]  * ScottK never owned a Vic-20 or a Commodore 64, but I did sell them.
[06:03] <nixternal> I remember the first PC my parents bought, it was like $4000, and it was a damn 286
[06:03] <ScottK> We later got an Apple ][.
[06:03] <nixternal> only Apple I ever used was in school
[06:03] <ScottK> Then I went Mac.
[06:04] <nixternal> we were to poor for an Apple :)
[06:04] <ScottK> The first PC I ever owned was a P133 laptop I bought in 1996 because there was no Office 95 for Mac on the horizon at all.
[06:05] <ScottK> I dealt with CP/M on my Apple ][ with a Z80 board.
[06:05] <ScottK> So I guess I've never actually used DOS much at all.
[06:05] <ScottK> But CP/M ~ DOS from a user perspective anyway.
[06:08]  * ScottK needs to get to bed.
[06:09]  * Jucato waves good night as he monitors some uprising/coup brewing...
[06:31] <Serega> hi, guys!
[06:46] <Serega> Riddel: Jonathan?
[13:12] <nixternal> mornin'
[13:13] <Riddell> Hobbsee: are you going to send out an e-mail announcing the meeting?
[13:13] <Riddell> hola nixternal
[13:13] <Hobbsee> mm.  i really should.
[13:14] <nixternal> yasoo
[13:14] <nixternal> everyone is stealing my latin thunder, so now I shall go greek!
[13:15] <nixternal> so did we release alpha 1 today? (and not beta 1) :)
[13:15] <Jucato> :P
[13:15] <Tm_T> nixternal: ?
[13:15] <Tm_T> aaa
[13:15] <nixternal> hehe
[13:15] <Tm_T> Alpha definately
[13:15] <Riddell> we got cdimages to stop making gutsy CDs
[13:16] <Riddell> but the hardy CDs don't boot
[13:16] <nixternal> lol
[13:16] <nixternal> lovely
[13:16]  * Tm_T got 5 Kubuntu cds from shipit today
[13:16] <Tm_T> ...I asked a "few" more than that though
[13:16] <nixternal> out of 300 CDs sent from shipit for the loco, that is about how many Kubuntu CDs you get
[13:17] <Tm_T> yeh
[13:17] <Tm_T> the loco?
[13:17] <Tm_T> or the locos?
[13:19] <nixternal> for ubuntu chicago
[13:20] <Tm_T> heh
[13:20] <Tm_T> IIRC whole finnish loco have had only ~30 Kubuntu cds total this far
[13:27] <sebastian^> hey folks :)
[13:27] <nixternal> well hello sebastian^
[13:29]  * nixternal wishes crimsun would come back and work on audio stuff again...once again the intel audio is freakin' goofy
[13:30] <nixternal> mornin' johnny boy
[13:40] <jjesse> morning nixternal
[13:40] <Riddell> Lure: you seem to be down for the digikam merge, have you looked at it?
[13:41] <Riddell> I remember something about waiting for a new version
[13:42] <Hobbsee> current digikam shouldn't be installable.
[13:42] <Hobbsee> oh, might be, if the old binaries are still there
[13:42] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I see you're down for libmtp, got time for such merging?
[13:43] <Hobbsee> what, again?
[13:43] <jjesse> is the alpha this week or next week?
[13:43] <Hobbsee> oh
[13:43] <Hobbsee> jjesse: this one
[13:43] <Lure> Riddell: no, as I am waiting for digikam 0.9.3 rc to get in debian first
[13:43] <Lure> Riddell: currently there is not much value in merge
[13:43] <Hobbsee> Riddell: doko's commented in a bug about it, someone's done the merge on LP, nad i'm quite happy continuing to ignore it
[13:43] <Lure> Riddell: and 0.9.3 will need more work due to updated dependancies
[13:43] <Hobbsee> er, in the bug that i uploaded a fix for
[13:43] <Hobbsee> about how mine was wrong, iirc
[13:44] <Riddell> jjesse: when it's ready (due today but unlikely to happen)
[13:45] <jjesse> oh cool
[13:48] <Riddell> however we may have CDs at some point for testing
[13:48] <jjesse> i'll help test cds if and when they are ready
[14:03] <nixternal> hey, and we have release notes for it as well :)
[14:12] <Riddell> go go nixternal
[14:20] <nixternal> is that like inspector gadget? go go nixternal rockets
[14:24] <Tm_T> Currently we expect preliminary CD images to become available Thursday for
[14:24] <Tm_T> testing, but Alpha 1 should not be expected until Friday.  We'll keep you
[14:24] <Tm_T> informed as things progress.
[14:25] <Hobbsee> | Please help testing the Alpha 1 images: https://iso.qa.stgraber.org".
[14:29] <nixternal> libqtwebkit0d - Web content engine library for Qt
[14:29]  * nixternal huggles Riddell!
[14:29] <Jucato> Hobbsee: Ubuntu only?
[14:30] <Riddell> nothing to do with me, webkitkde is still in New to actually do something with it
[14:30] <Hobbsee> Jucato: no idea.
[14:30]  * nixternal can't wait
[14:30] <nixternal> I was playing with webkit and epiphany a couple of weeks ago...pretty nifty
[14:30] <Jucato> Hobbsee: only Ubunu ALternate amd64 and i386 on that page
[14:30] <Hobbsee> Jucato: then presumably kubuntu is still going, ask Riddell
[14:31]  * nixternal can only imaging Konqi has WebKit and not KHTML....drooling as we speak
[14:31]  * nixternal can't spell either
[14:31] <Jucato> Hobbsee: wokey :)
[14:31] <Jucato> nixternal: noticed :)
[14:31] <nixternal> imagine is that one word that always gets me when typing
[14:31] <nixternal> I always add the *g* instead of the *e*
[14:31] <Jucato> it's teh for me
[14:31] <Jucato> :)
[14:32] <nixternal> that's alright....we did an impromptu writing in class yesterday, and I did the unthinkable
[14:32] <nixternal> I spelled my last name wrong
[14:32] <nixternal> lol
[14:32] <Jucato> O.o
[14:33] <nixternal> I used to joke the only reason I got points on a test was because I spelled my name correctly...if that was the case, yesterday would have been a 0
[14:34]  * nixternal goes to class
[14:34] <nixternal> later
[14:35] <Jucato> good luck :)
[14:35] <RoadRunnR> i all, where is the best place to report kubuntu specific kde bugs in Hardy? I'm asking because it seems that the bugs on Launchpad are completely unmaintained.... :-(
[14:37] <ScottK> RoadRunnR: It only seems that way.
[14:37] <Hobbsee> ScottK: depends on the package
[14:37] <ScottK> True
[14:38]  * ScottK was reading a lot into 'completely'.
[14:38] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: launchpad is the official place, you can also try moaning here
[14:38] <Jucato> ScottK: I was reading a lot into "unmaintained" :)
[14:38] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: we're not really in bug fixing mode currently, it's the start of the cycle
[14:38] <RoadRunnR> don feel like moaning ;-) .... although debian had the fix like 2 weeks ago.... and it's kdm
[14:39]  * Hobbsee will admit to not looking at bugs for kde for the last while, with plans to start up again unlikely
[14:39] <Jucato> Hobbsee: sob :(
[14:39] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: what's the issue?
[14:39] <Jucato> Hobbsee: but whatever make you happy, makes me glad :)
[14:40] <RoadRunnR> missing consolkit support in kdm, breaks mounting USB sticks in Doplhin...
[14:40] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: oh aye, that's on my radar indeed
[14:41] <RoadRunnR> ok, i did file a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/172281 but it was only 2 days ago, so i think its to early to "moan" ;-)
[14:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 172281 in kdebase "kdm: Please add support for ConsoleKit" [Undecided,New]
[14:41] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: if you fancy doing a debdiff I can upload straight away, otherwise I'll get round to it today or tomorrow
[14:43] <RoadRunnR> Riddell: mhh, i'll have a look, might still be tomorrow before i have time for it :-(
[14:44] <Riddell> RoadRunnR: let me know if you need any help
[14:45] <RoadRunnR> Riddell: the problem is more finding the time for it
[14:47] <Riddell> a common problem that
[14:53] <davmor2> Mr Riddell testing time is here again :)
[14:54] <Riddell> yo davmor2
[14:54] <Riddell> high five
[14:54] <Riddell> I see we're oversized, I wonder if I need to rebuild the livefs
[14:54] <davmor2> higher I'm further up than you :)
[14:56] <davmor2> Probably let you know asap just wiping gutsy in order to burn hardy :)  By the way only testing 64 bit at heno's request as his are in oslo and he is now in oxford
[14:58] <Riddell> davmor2: these won't be the final images, but still worth testing since they are the first ever hardy images and anything could go wrong
[14:59] <davmor2> heno has just vbox'ed kub 32bit and it's fine
[14:59] <Riddell> wow, impressive
[14:59] <davmor2> got a new laptop too so might find new flaws :)
[15:05] <kwwii> Riddell: ruphy said we would send you a link to 100 or so best wallpapers
[15:06] <davmor2> ouch
[15:07] <apachelogger> kwwii: and I don't get anything... as usual -.-
[15:08] <Riddell> kwwii: that would be great
[15:08] <Riddell> Serega!
[15:08] <Serega> Riddell: Hi!
[15:08] <Riddell> that kaffeine patch works a charm
[15:09] <kwwii> apachelogger: I told him to hide them from you :p
[15:09] <apachelogger> of course you did, everyone does ... I might become too allmighty :P
[15:09] <apachelogger> still, you can't prevent this
[15:09] <apachelogger> muhahahahaa
[15:09] <Serega> Riddell: I wish to ask you about an immodest thing ;) can we addCredit my name in main.cpp?
[15:10] <Serega> Riddell: If it is too early to do this, just say me
[15:10] <davmor2> Riddell: is that like a nicorette patch but to keep dev awake :)
[15:11] <apachelogger> Oo
[15:11] <Riddell> davmor2: ho ho ho
[15:11] <apachelogger> best description of that patch ever heard
[15:11] <Riddell> Serega: don't see why not, so long as the patch is sent upstream when it's ready
[15:11] <apachelogger> davmor2: ye should patent that
[15:12]  * Serega is happy :)
[15:13] <Serega> Riddell: I'm quite idle for performing the next task
[15:13] <snikker> hi, the "service menu" for deb packages, is removed from gutsy?
[15:13] <apachelogger> snikker: yes
[15:14] <apachelogger> replaced by gdebi-kde
[15:16] <davmor2> Riddell: seemed to burn am testing now
[15:17]  * Serega scrolls up and thanks Riddell for compliment
[15:18]  * apachelogger gives everyone a cookie
[15:18] <snikker> apachelogger: thank you for answer. i install it now :-)
[15:20] <Hobbsee> Riddell: can you email?  i can't think of anything witty to say, and my head is hurting
[15:22] <Riddell> Hobbsee: sure
[15:23] <Riddell> Serega: well that css script could do with being written
[15:23] <Hobbsee> thx
[15:25] <Serega> Riddell: with pleasure
[15:27]  * Serega learns PyQt4 so the script likely will be rewritten in python
[15:27] <Riddell> hi rdieter
[15:28] <Riddell> Serega: for downloading and installing something it might actually be easier in bash, using kdialog and xdg-copy or the like
[15:28] <Riddell> I say might since nothing is very easy in bash
[15:28] <rdieter> Riddell: hiya
[15:28] <Riddell> and we do like python
[15:29] <Serega> I started to like it too :)
[15:30] <Serega> Riddell: as I understand the general strategy is to download the package via wget and just install it via gdebi
[15:30] <Serega> right?
[15:32] <Serega> Riddell: another one: do it simultaneously with the libxine installation or DVD is a standalone case dur to law issues?
[15:32] <Serega> s/dur/due
[15:33] <Riddell> Serega: we want it to be graphical so kfmclient rather than wget
[15:33] <Riddell> infact `kfmclient exec http://foo/..deb` might be all that's needed
[15:34] <Serega> Riddell: ooh, thanks
[15:34] <Riddell> I don't really mind if it's separate or not, it can be easily remove either way if there's objections
[15:35] <Serega> Riddell: what temprorary area to use?
[15:35] <Serega> ooh...
[15:35] <Serega> shouldn't care with 'exec'
[15:35] <Riddell> exactly
[15:35] <Riddell> Serega: we also need to install libdvdread3
[15:35] <Serega> pretty nice
[15:36] <Serega> I've frogot it, so libxine-ffmpeg, dvdcss and dvdread?
[15:38] <davmor2> Riddell: I got a pop up window saying that a new 78gb drive had become available.  Don't think that should happen :(
[15:45] <Riddell> davmor2: during install?
[15:45] <davmor2> yes on the live cd
[15:45] <Riddell> Serega: yep
[15:45] <davmor2> desktop sorry
[15:45] <Riddell> davmor2: but during the install or just starting the live session?
[15:46] <davmor2> during install I think it happen after it had wiped the hard drive but it throws up a window with cancel on it
[15:47] <davmor2> above the install progress window sorry premature enter hitting
[15:49] <davmor2> Riddell: other than that everything seems okay :)
[15:50] <Riddell> well not a critical beastie for a first alpha
[15:52] <davmor2> Riddell: kdesudo not working on admin mode for setting might be though :)
[15:54] <davmor2> just clicked onto system settings.  Then monitor and display and hit the administor mode button and got error kdesudo command not found window
[15:57] <Serega> when will be the first alpha?
[15:57] <davmor2> Serega: tomorrow I believe
[15:57] <Serega> ooohh...
[15:58] <jjesse> there was an announcement that alpha1 testing owuld start friday
[15:58] <Serega> kool
[15:58] <Serega> where can I read more about it?
[15:59] <Serega> kubuntu.org is silent :(
[15:59] <jjesse> it was sent to ubuntu-announce mailing list
[16:07] <davmor2> Riddell: heno just went for the install and got the same new device issue as me
[16:20] <bddebian> Heya
[16:23] <ScottK> bddebian: Hello.
[16:23] <bddebian> Hi ScottK
[17:43] <Riddell> Lure: do you know if there's plans for a libgphoto2 merge?
[18:05]  * apachelogger fires up amarok
[18:06] <apachelogger> ahoy krasu
[18:06] <Riddell> I do love amarok daap, I just wish it didn't play every track twice
[18:06] <krasu> apachelogger: hi
[18:06] <apachelogger> Riddell: that doesn't sound like expected behaviour, did you tell eean?
[18:07] <Riddell> not yet
[18:07] <apachelogger> krasu: I was working on the ksquirrel package the whole afternoon
[18:07]  * apachelogger is quite exhausted
[18:08] <apachelogger> krasu: you might consider to not reuse that much code :P
[18:08] <apachelogger> I have to list all the copyrights and licenses
[18:08] <apachelogger> awful work for the libs
[18:08] <krasu> apachelogger: reusing code is OSS advantage :)
[18:09] <apachelogger> krasu: well, you could just introduce a build dependency against $SOURCEFILE ;-)
[18:09] <apachelogger> anyway
[18:09] <apachelogger> I also noticed some other quirks
[18:09] <krasu> apachelogger: I'm working on Konqueror interation now, it's almost done...
[18:10] <krasu> integration
[18:10] <apachelogger> please tell me that you didn't import code from konqueror :-P
[18:10] <apachelogger> if not I have to say.. ARRRR :D
[18:11] <apachelogger> krasu: is there a special reason why libksquirrel-libs-png.so is installed into lib and not lib/ksquirrel?
[18:11] <krasu> hehe, no. it's KPart object to let Konqueror open images with KSquirrel's code
[18:11] <apachelogger> sounds awesome
[18:11] <krasu> apachelogger: it's not a ksquirrel-libs codec, so it is installed in /usr/lib
[18:12] <davmor2> Riddell: alt kubuntu crashes out
[18:12] <Riddell> davmor2: at what point?
[18:12] <apachelogger> krasu: well, technically I'd have to create a seperate package for it since the soname doesn't match the package name
[18:12] <davmor2> just checking now
[18:13] <krasu> apachelogger: Should I change soname?
[18:14] <davmor2> debootstrap: E: No pkgdetails available
[18:14] <apachelogger> krasu: I think that would cause problems ;-)
[18:14] <apachelogger> W: libksquirrel0: package-name-doesnt-match-sonames libksquirrel-libs-png0 libksquirrel-libs0
[18:15] <apachelogger> though I think we can ignore that issue if you can't think of a solution
[18:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: right?
[18:15] <Riddell> davmor2: I suspect that's a known problem
[18:15] <davmor2> riddell: it happen on xub alt too
[18:15] <Riddell> davmor2: yeah, must be then, new images should be around at some point
[18:15] <davmor2> np
[18:15] <Riddell> apachelogger: you don't need to create separate packages for each library if the library is just used by the one app
[18:15] <krasu> apachelogger: the solution is to give libksquirrel-libs-png same soname, for example 0.7.6 ?
[18:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: ok
[18:16] <krasu> apachelogger: currently it is 0.0.0
[18:16] <Riddell> if the library is only used by one application just keep it all within the one package
[18:16] <apachelogger> krasu: just forget about it
[18:16]  * apachelogger marks as ignore
[18:17] <apachelogger> krasu: also a master of the universe asked if you could keep changelogs
[18:17] <krasu> apachelogger: ChangeLog is in source package
[18:17] <apachelogger> oh
[18:17] <apachelogger> krasu: for the libs as well
[18:18] <apachelogger> well
[18:18] <krasu> apachelogger: aha. ksquirrel-libs doesn't have changelog:)
[18:18] <krasu> 0.7.6 will be the first :)
[18:19] <apachelogger> ok :)
[18:19] <krasu> And I don't know what to write there:)
[18:19] <apachelogger> krasu: the changes :P
[18:19] <apachelogger> well, best thing is to just keep one changelog and ensure it gets included in both tarballs
[18:20] <krasu> I forgot that KSquirrel has ChangeLog for both :)
[18:20] <krasu> apachelogger: well, what about fork()-s?
[18:21] <apachelogger> I think I misunderstood you there
[18:21] <apachelogger> krasu: you just access the libs, right?
[18:21] <krasu> apachelogger: right
[18:21] <apachelogger> krasu: ok, but the note about dcraw is wrong
[18:21] <apachelogger> * CAMERA library installs its own dcraw version 8.60. dcraw is by (C) Dave Coffin,
[18:21] <apachelogger>   which is free redistributable if no source code modification were applied
[18:22] <apachelogger> dcraw is free as by GPL, only it got special section which have to be made available at all costs, if one doesn't do that one needs to get a license from the author, rewrite or remove entirely
[18:24] <krasu> *If you have not modified dcraw.c in any way, a link to my homepage qualifies as "full source code".
[18:25] <apachelogger> krasu: I suggest just copy'n'paste the description
[18:26] <krasu> into COPYNG file?
[18:26] <apachelogger> yep
[18:26] <apachelogger> or maybe just the most important information
[18:30] <krasu> apachelogger: Well, was dcraw the only problem?
[18:30] <apachelogger> hm
[18:30] <apachelogger> no
[18:30] <apachelogger> krasu: where is the redeye code copyright in ksquirrel?
[18:30] <krasu> apachelogger: in fmt_filters_README
[18:31] <apachelogger> yeah, well, it's missing in the sources
[18:32] <krasu> apachelogger: Will be fixed now:)
[18:33] <apachelogger> krasu: k, thanks
[18:33]  * apachelogger heads over to his notes
[18:33] <apachelogger> - get latest admin directory from svn://anonsvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/kde-common/admin/
[18:33] <apachelogger> the current one is like _really_ old
[18:33] <apachelogger> 2002
[18:34] <krasu> apachelogger: hmm, I took current admin/ few months ago...
[18:35] <krasu> apachelogger: 2007-09-07
[18:35] <apachelogger> E: libksquirrel source: outdated-autotools-helper-file admin/config.guess 2002-10-21
[18:35] <apachelogger> E: libksquirrel source: outdated-autotools-helper-file admin/config.sub 2002-09-05
[18:35] <Riddell> not the end of the world
[18:36] <apachelogger> true
[18:37] <Riddell> but sure, fix for the next upstream release
[18:40] <apachelogger> krasu: ready for next issue? ;-)
[18:40] <krasu> apachelogger: aha ;)
[18:40] <apachelogger> krasu: the tarball you sent included some backup files http://pastebin.kubuntu-de.org/144105
[18:40] <apachelogger> no big deal though
[18:40] <krasu> ~ ?
[18:41] <apachelogger> autocreated backup files from kate/kwrite
[18:41] <krasu> aha, right. I'll "rm -f *~" now
[18:41] <apachelogger> krasu: btw, do you have a release script?
[18:41] <Riddell> always do a fresh svn export when making your tar
[18:42] <krasu> apachelogger: no, just "make dist" :)
[18:42] <apachelogger> krasu: as a release manager I can totally recommend writing a simple bash script for releasing
[18:42] <krasu> apachelogger: I want to do it since 2004
[18:42] <krasu> :)
[18:43] <apachelogger> hehe
[18:43] <apachelogger> well, maybe one day ;-)
[18:44] <apachelogger> krasu: next: I never got the use of rpath, but apparently debian based distros tend to dislike it due to possible problems, so compiling the libs by default without rpath would be awesome... didn't had a look into that though, got reported by a master of the universe
[18:44] <krasu> apachelogger: btw, *~ are not visible for users, only root can see them :(
[18:44] <apachelogger> Oo
[18:44] <apachelogger> oh?
[18:44] <apachelogger> not on kubuntu or suse
[18:45] <krasu> apachelogger: I can remove them with "rm", but mc under user don't find anything whrn searching *~
[18:46] <apachelogger> strange
[18:46] <apachelogger> maybe a bug in mc
[18:46] <Riddell> probably a mis-feature
[18:47] <krasu> apachelogger: I know about -rpath, but _I_ don't use it at all. Maybe scripts in admin/ change something in Makefiles, but no one Makefile.am contains "-rpath"
[18:48] <Riddell> that should be disabled by our kde.mk
[18:49] <apachelogger> hm, I think I'm not using it for the libs since they don't depend on kde
[18:49] <apachelogger> well, I'll just do some investigation since I didn't notice it in the first place
[18:49] <Riddell> --disable-rpath to ./configure  /should/ convince it
[18:49] <apachelogger> yep
[18:49] <krasu> apachelogger: but admin/ in ksquirrel-libs is from that KDE svn
[18:50] <apachelogger> hm
[18:50] <apachelogger> oh
[18:50] <apachelogger> lemme check something
[18:52]  * krasu will be back in 5 minutes...
[18:55] <apachelogger> krasu: diff of latest checkout vs. the version shipped in the 0.7.6 tarball I got http://pastebin.kubuntu-de.org/144156
[18:58] <krasu> apachelogger: ok, I'll update admin/ now)
[18:58] <apachelogger> aye :)
[19:01] <krasu> done
[19:02] <apachelogger> thx
[19:03] <apachelogger> krasu: .desktop file should be installed into xdg path, patch: http://pastebin.kubuntu-de.org/144158
[19:04] <krasu> apachelogger: make -f Makefile.cvs now tells     configure.ac:643: required file `admin/config.rpath' not found
[19:04] <apachelogger> krasu: can you please paste makefile.cvs
[19:05] <apachelogger> well
[19:05] <apachelogger> rather configure.ac
[19:05] <apachelogger> or both ;-)
[19:06] <krasu> apachelogger: line 643 in .ac contains AM_GNU_GETTEXT(external)
[19:06] <apachelogger> krasu: http://pastebin.kubuntu-de.org
[19:06] <apachelogger> the line might not be right
[19:06] <apachelogger> autohell and stuff
[19:07] <apachelogger> well
[19:07] <apachelogger> krasu: just search for rpath and kill all lines containing that awful word
[19:08] <Riddell> configure.ac in a KDE app?
[19:09] <apachelogger> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh+h
[19:09] <apachelogger> krasu: you are using rpath
[19:09] <krasu> noooooooooo! :)
[19:09] <apachelogger> grep -i 'rpath' ./*
[19:09] <krasu> hell, I hate autoconf
[19:09] <apachelogger> me too
[19:10] <apachelogger> krasu: ye want to switch to cmake? ;-)
[19:10] <krasu> yes!
[19:10] <krasu> ASAP
[19:10] <apachelogger> well, kde4 port is soon enough I guess
[19:11] <apachelogger> meh
[19:11] <apachelogger> that  is totally confusing -.-
[19:11] <krasu> "rpath" is only in some files in admin/, in all Makefile.in-s and "configure"
[19:11] <apachelogger> oh, I find it in the .am as well
[19:11] <apachelogger> Oo
[19:11] <apachelogger> ah
[19:11] <apachelogger> nah
[19:11]  * apachelogger kicks his graphics driver for graphic issues
[19:12] <apachelogger> oh
[19:12] <apachelogger> nah again
[19:12] <apachelogger> libkls_ttf_la_LIBADD = ${SQ_LOCAL_RPATH}
[19:12] <krasu> no, this is not rpath :)
[19:13] <apachelogger> what ever :P
[19:13] <apachelogger> question is
[19:13] <apachelogger> why does autohell require the deprecate rpath file in admin?
[19:13] <krasu> SQ_LOCAL_RPATH="-L../ksquirrel-libs -lksquirrel-libs"
[19:13] <krasu> this is in configure.ac
[19:13] <apachelogger> k
[19:14] <krasu> apachelogger: don't know, previous admin/ checkout worked, but this is not
[19:14] <apachelogger> well, the previous was old :P
[19:14]  * apachelogger notes kde4 isn't exactly usable with >10 apps
[19:17] <apachelogger> oh
[19:17] <apachelogger> krasu: it's the main Makefile.am
[19:18] <apachelogger> for some reason it lists al the files in admin/
[19:19] <krasu> apachelogger: ok, config.rpath was stolen from Licq svn, now it works
[19:20] <apachelogger> krasu: ye readd it or did fix it? :P
[19:20] <krasu> just downloaded config.rpath from svn to admin/
[19:22]  * apachelogger just hopes configure respects --disable-rpath :P
[19:22] <krasu> apachelogger: testing...
[19:23]  * apachelogger makes the desktop file actually work
[19:23] <krasu> hell, it doesn't work. "-rpath /usr/lib/ksquirrel-libs" is still present
[19:24] <Riddell> krasu: are you on amd64?
[19:24] <krasu> Riddell: no
[19:25] <krasu> Sempron 32bit
[19:26] <krasu> apachelogger: about .desktop file... According to your patch it won't be installed in Graphics/ section. Is it correct?
[19:27] <apachelogger> oh
[19:27] <apachelogger> actually not
[19:27] <apachelogger> krasu: desktop file need some changes
[19:27] <apachelogger> gotta go for a cigarette first :D
[19:27] <apachelogger> AFK
[19:27] <krasu> me too :)
[19:27]  * krasu away
[19:39] <krasu> apachelogger: well, what do we have: 1) I'll insert dcraw description in COPYING 2) copy redeye copyright from fmt_filters_README to fmt_filters sources 3) update admin/ 4) copy ChangeLog from KSquirrel to -libs
[19:41] <apachelogger> don't use rpath
[19:41] <apachelogger> else I have to rape it out of every lib :P
[19:42] <apachelogger> krasu: http://pastebin.kubuntu-de.org/144256 new patch now making the desktop file spec valid and install the dolphin servicemenu into d3lphin which is the active maintained kde3 backport
[19:42] <apachelogger> background paper for the desktop file stuff: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html
[19:45] <apachelogger> oh
[19:45] <apachelogger> one last issue
[19:45] <apachelogger> krasu: could you please store the lib and the app tarball in different directories, else I can't use the debian "check for new versions" app
[19:45] <apachelogger> on the server that is
[19:46] <krasu> apachelogger: in different tarballs?
[19:47] <apachelogger> krasu: nope, directores ... http://downloads.sourceforge.net/ksquirrel/ksquirrel-x.y.z.tar.bz2 and http://downloads.sourceforge.net/ksquirrel-libs/ksquirrel-libs-x.y.z.tar.bz2 or something
[19:47] <apachelogger> or libs as subfolder in ksquirrel
[19:49] <krasu> apachelogger: after "http://downloads.sourceforge.net/" SF requires project name, it means that I should create another project named "ksquirrel-libs" :)
[19:49] <krasu> anyway KSquirrel and -libs are always released together
[19:49] <apachelogger> you can't create a subfolder in ksquirrel?
[19:49] <apachelogger> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/ksquirrel/libs/ksquirrel-libs-x.y.z.tar.bz2
[19:50] <jpatrick> woah..
[19:50] <apachelogger> it's not a major problem, but it would be nice to be able to uscan for new versions
[19:51] <apachelogger> jpatrick: hey, how is it going?
[19:56] <krasu> apachelogger: downloads at sf.net are not so simple :) that link btw doesn't point to real file at all, sf.net will redirect you to some mirror...
[19:56] <krasu> apachelogger: .dekstop is fixed, I used xdg_apps_DATA = ksquirrel.desktop in Makefile.am
[19:56] <apachelogger> fair enough :)
[19:56] <apachelogger> well, forget about the download path then ;-)
[19:57] <apachelogger> krasu: maybe you should join extragear and use the kde download platform
[20:00] <krasu> apachelogger: too difficult at this moment...
[20:02] <apachelogger> krasu: I can live without uscan ;)
[20:03] <krasu> apachelogger: [21:48:03] maybe smth else?
[20:04] <apachelogger> krasu: something else?
[20:04] <krasu> apachelogger: [21:48:03]
[20:05]  * apachelogger is confused :P
[20:07] <krasu> apachelogger: did your IRC client clear history?
[20:09] <apachelogger> krasu: nope, maybe a netsplit happened there?
[20:09] <krasu> repost...
[20:09] <krasu> well, what do we have: 1) I'll insert dcraw description in COPYING 2) copy redeye copyright from fmt_filters_README to fmt_filters sources 3) update admin/ 4) copy ChangeLog from KSquirrel to -libs
[20:10] <krasu> 5) update .desktop
[20:10] <apachelogger> 6) don't use rpath
[20:10] <apachelogger> that's it
[20:11] <krasu> and I don't
[20:12] <apachelogger> well, autohell does :P
[20:12]  * krasu shoot himself
[20:13] <apachelogger> krasu: better nuke autohell and start all over with cmake ;-)
[20:15] <krasu> yeah :)
[20:16]  * apachelogger should get something to eat
[20:17] <krasu> apachelogger: Think it's enough for today :) I'll contact you via email. Thanks for your help!
[20:17] <apachelogger> krasu: thanks for ksquirrel :)
[20:39] <ryanakca> Riddell: (K)Ubuntu plan on participating in http://code.google.com/opensource/ghop/2007-8/ ?
[20:42] <Tonio_> Hi there !
[20:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: back to work after 2 hard work weeks
[20:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'm fixing kdepim to add networkstatus support back
[20:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: knetworkmanager is broken due to this
[20:43] <ScottK> Tonio_: While you're fixing it would you add the kmail dependencies for GPG and S/MIME back?
[20:43] <Tonio_> ScottK: hum I didn't notice that change.....
[20:43] <Tonio_> ScottK: when did that broke ?
[20:43] <ScottK> When Riddell merged from Debian.
[20:44] <Tonio_> ScottK: imho that kmail should depend on this
[20:44] <Tonio_> ScottK: kmail should recommend kleopatra and this one should depend on this no ?
[20:44] <ScottK> Kmail can only suggest Kleopatra because it's in Universe
[20:44] <Tonio_> ScottK: makes sense
[20:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: most people don't care about email encryption support
[20:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: no reason to have this installed by default imho
[20:45] <ScottK> It needs gpgsm, libgpgme-dev (IIRC), and pinentry-qt
[20:45] <ScottK> Tonio_: Well it was a spec'ed feature for Gutsy.
[20:45] <ScottK> It's also in the release notes.
[20:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: hum, if that was was approved spec, that's different :)
[20:45] <ScottK> It was.
[20:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: okay I'll add that back before upload
[20:46] <ScottK> I'll get you exactly what needs to be added back if you want me to look it up.
[20:46] <Tonio_> ScottK: the problem is mostly that the kubuntu_debian_difference file wasn't up to date
[20:46] <ScottK> Ah.
[20:46] <Tonio_> ScottK: let's compare with gutsy package and make the changes back ;)
[20:46] <ScottK> Right.  I was looking up what I added for Gutsy.
[20:47] <Tonio_> ScottK: is there some build-dep changes to perform or just binary dependancies ?
[20:47] <ScottK> Depends are gpgsm, gnupg-agent, pinentry-qt | pinentry-x11
[20:47] <Tonio_> so no build-deps ?
[20:48] <ScottK> I see gpgsm in the build deps, but I don't know if that's actually needed or not.  I don't remember adding it.
[20:48] <Tonio_> lemme look at the changelog
[20:49] <Tonio_> well Riddell did that, there should be a good reason, let's keep it
[20:50] <Tonio_> so kmail depends on gpgsm, gnupg-agent, pinentry-qt | pinentry-x11
[20:50] <ScottK> OK.  Certainly can't hurt.
[20:50] <Tonio_> package build-deps on gpgsm
[20:50] <Tonio_> and that's it ?
[20:50] <ScottK> Tonio_: Yes.  And suggests kleopatra
[20:50] <ScottK> It was a recommends in Gutsy, but since we will install recommends by default now, it needs to drop to suggests.
[20:51] <Tonio_> it already suggests kleopatra only
[20:52] <ScottK> OK.
[20:53] <ScottK> The 3.5.7 source package I have here also suggested gnupg, but IIRC that's essential, so it's unneeded.
[20:54] <ScottK> Nope, it's important, not essential.  We need that, but it's already installed by default.
[20:57] <Tonio_> ScottK: uploading :)
[20:57] <ScottK> Tonio_: Great.
[20:57]  * ScottK thought I'd have to do the work for that feature just once and not every release ;-)
[21:05] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Disk+Manager?content=70149
[21:05] <Tonio_> Riddell: looks interesting to test, as qtparted now really sucks as hell
[21:27] <jjesse> Tonio_; does it work w/ vista ntfs partitions?
[21:29]  * apachelogger goes packaging it
[21:30] <Tonio_> jjesse: no idea, I'm currently willing to test it only
[21:30] <Tonio_> jjesse: vista ntfs isn't different from xp ntfs
[21:30] <Tonio_> jjesse: I see no reason that it isn't supported
[21:31] <apachelogger> oh
[21:31] <apachelogger> I think there are small differences
[21:31] <Tonio_> jjesse: are you aware of any vista specific problem with ntfs ?
[21:31] <jjesse> Tonio_: i know that qtparted can't resize an ntfs partifion
[21:31] <jjesse> created w/ vista
[21:31] <Tonio_> jjesse: that's a problem with dependancies
[21:31] <jjesse> had to use the gparted live cd to resize so i could dual boot vista/kubuntu
[21:31] <Tonio_> jjesse: qtparted package is bloated compared to gparted
[21:31] <Tonio_> jjesse: theorically they support the same features
[21:32] <jjesse> i like the "theoritically"
[21:32] <Tonio_> apachelogger: afaik, the only difference is the capability of winfs
[21:32] <Tonio_> apachelogger: but winfs goes on top of ntfs and isn't installed on vista by default
[21:32] <Tonio_> apachelogger: not even public yet
[21:32] <Tonio_> apachelogger: the nfs FS version is afaik the same (maybe minor update but that's all)
[21:33] <Tonio_> jjesse: qtparted is unmaintained for 4 years, so everything is to be considered "theorical" with it :)
[21:33] <Tonio_> jjesse: the other one is maintained
[21:33] <jjesse> ah i understand now
[21:34] <jjesse> it just is frustrating that to dual boot vista and kubuntu i have to first boot into a live gparetd cd and resize and then reboot into the instalelr
[21:35] <apachelogger> Tonio_: might be
[21:35] <Tonio_> jjesse: have you tried qtparted once gparted (all all deps...) are installed ?
[21:35]  * apachelogger isn't really into ntfs :P
[21:35] <Tonio_> jjesse: I'm pretty sure it then supports ntfs
[21:35] <jjesse> Tonio_: i can install during a live cd session all the deps?
[21:35] <Tonio_> apachelogger: this might be shocking for you but I love ntfs
[21:35] <Tonio_> really love it
[21:35] <Tonio_> jjesse: sure
[21:35] <jjesse> Tonio_: never thought
[21:35] <apachelogger> omg!
[21:36]  * apachelogger is afraid of Tonio_
[21:36] <Tonio_> jjesse: the problem is onto the deps only
[21:36] <Tonio_> apachelogger: as well as I love windows
[21:36] <apachelogger> ah, I wouldn't say love for me
[21:36] <apachelogger> though I love vb.net :P
[21:36] <Tonio_> and that, because I experimented linux, and therefore know windows much better that most linux users
[21:36] <Tonio_> apachelogger: market share is not the only reaon of the windows success
[21:37] <Tonio_> apachelogger: I'm doing desktop linux for companies for 2 years now, and I think that with the time, I came to the biggest reason windows is actually supperior to linux
[21:37] <Tonio_> apachelogger: especially in corporate environment
[21:37] <Tonio_> apachelogger: want to know my feeling ?
[21:37] <apachelogger> oh, please
[21:37] <Tonio_> apachelogger: I really am conviced of that
[21:38] <Tonio_> not supperior on everything, but the free software is limited at some points compared to corporate development
[21:38] <Tonio_> and here is the reason :
[21:38] <Tonio_> THE REGISTRY
[21:38] <Tonio_> windows is supperior to linux on that point
[21:38] <Tonio_> there is not 10 ways to set and read configuration
[21:38] <Tonio_> only one
[21:38]  * apachelogger agress on that
[21:39] <apachelogger> -s+e
[21:39] <Tonio_> then when you have to deploy settings on 10000 machines, you don't have to think about "how to"
[21:39] <Tonio_> you just do it with a standard adm extension over active directory
[21:39] <Tonio_> there is no possibility to do that on linux because there is no fucking standard with the settings
[21:39] <apachelogger> well
[21:39] <Tonio_> there should be a settings framework like pam for auth
[21:39] <apachelogger> for KDE there is
[21:40] <Tonio_> apachelogger: but what about apache ?
[21:40] <Tonio_> what about openldap ? proftpd ? gnome
[21:40] <apachelogger> yeah
[21:40] <Tonio_> I had to set the default browser for the french parliament
[21:40] <Tonio_> you have to set it in kde
[21:40] <Tonio_> set the alternative
[21:40] <Tonio_> set it in gnome
[21:40] <Tonio_> set it is any desktop independant app
[21:41] <Tonio_> on windows that's just ONE registry key
[21:41] <Tonio_> and that's done
[21:41] <Tonio_> how can you dynamically set your openoffice.org settings ?
[21:41] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[21:41] <Tonio_> there is NO way to change any settings dynamically
[21:41] <Tonio_> and that's the reason OOo will not succeed against msoffice
[21:42] <apachelogger> so true :|
[21:42] <Tonio_> you can set anything with a gpo and msoffice adms loaded
[21:42] <Tonio_> what is more stupid that gnome and kde don't use the same settings for fonts ?
[21:42] <Tonio_> isn't that the most stupid thing ever ?
[21:42] <apachelogger> kinda
[21:42] <Tonio_> what if you want to build a linux desktop and use several components ?
[21:43] <Tonio_> you have to set fonts for gnome apps, kde apps, qt apps, gtk apps.......
[21:43] <Tonio_> on windows just do it once and for all on and it works
[21:43] <apachelogger> well, all this is only valid up to the point where someone comes up with a proper framework
[21:43] <Tonio_> there is the reason windows is supperior to linux : they oblige people to respect certain rules
[21:44] <Tonio_> if I had to manage a 100 web servers plateform in a company today, I wouldn't choose apache2 but IIS
[21:44] <Tonio_> simply because I can set all the machine settings at the same time
[21:44] <Tonio_> with active directory
[21:44] <Tonio_> and that's not possible with linux
[21:44] <ScottK> nixternal: I don't think you should be promising automatic install of libdvdcss in https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu
[21:45] <Tonio_> of course you have softwares like puppet and cfengine, but they try to deal with the different rc files syntax, which is a non-sence
[21:45] <Tonio_> there should only be once way to read and write config for all apps on a computer
[21:45] <Tonio_> there you win
[21:45] <ScottK> Tonio_: Isn't that what the server management tool Canonical is developing (I've forgotten the name) is attempting to solve?
[21:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: no
[21:45] <Tonio_> ScottK: it will deal with lamp ?
[21:46] <Tonio_> nice, but what about samba settings ? pure-ftpd settings ?
[21:46] <apachelogger> Tonio_: well the dealing with different files can be part of the solution
[21:46] <jpatrick> nixternal: kdebase has LUKS support too!
[21:46] <apachelogger> long term you need a standard everybode _wants_ to be be compatible with
[21:46] <Tonio_> ScottK: to make that to work with linux, you almose have to write a plugin PER application since they all have stupid and exotic way to write their config
[21:46] <Tonio_> that's the problem
[21:46] <apachelogger> like with the freedesktop stuff
[21:46] <Tonio_> the registry is ugly, but it unifies the way to deal with settings
[21:47] <Tonio_> then you only have to write ONE central console management system, called GPO manager on active directory
[21:47] <Tonio_> works and no trouble possible
[21:47]  * yuriy thinks Tonio_ is touting that all linux applications should use kconfig
[21:47] <Tonio_> at least on the desktop to start, kde and gnome should agree on the same way to read and write settings
[21:48] <apachelogger> yuriy: they _should_ :P
[21:48] <Tonio_> and define common settings, like "proxy", "font size"
[21:48] <Tonio_> yuriy: kconfig isn't the problem
[21:48] <yuriy> Tonio_: i was mostly joking
[21:48] <Tonio_> yuriy: kconfig is just a class to read and write settings
[21:48] <Tonio_> kconfig could be writing to gconf possibly
[21:48] <Tonio_> I consider rc files too limited compared to a registry equivalent
[21:49] <Tonio_> so yes, kde should consider sing gconf
[21:49] <Tonio_> ldap
[21:49] <Tonio_> anything they want, but something "tree" based
[21:49] <buz> jpatrick: i just tried the luks patch. kde detects the encrypted devices just fine but doesnt ask for password
[21:50] <Tonio_> and obviously gnome and kde shoud define a set of "common" settings so that configuring a desktop doesn't become a pain in the ass, to be honnest
[21:50] <jpatrick> buz: is that my package on ppa?
[21:50] <buz> yes
[21:50] <apachelogger> Tonio_: mail the freedesktop.org
[21:50] <jpatrick> buz: damn
[21:50] <yuriy> Tonio_: why does the back end matter so much? i think the interface is more the issue, and kconfig takes care of that, no?
[21:50] <buz> konqueror offers to mount the newly detected drive but does not ask for password upon telling to mount it
[21:50] <Tonio_> yuriy: I consider a shame that with the capabilities of free-softwares, we can't make something like that to happen
[21:51] <jpatrick> buz: can you tell me how to set it up again (maybe msg)
[21:51] <Tonio_> yuriy: the backend is the important thing
[21:51] <apachelogger> yuriy: you have to distribute the settings as well
[21:51] <apachelogger> ony tha fly
[21:51] <Tonio_> because there is no reason kde and gnome are not reading the proxy to use in the same place
[21:51] <Tonio_> as well as fonts settings
[21:51] <Tonio_> as well as the default browser to use etc.......
[21:52] <Tonio_> because without that, and a unified backend, there is no way to distribute settings
[21:52] <yuriy> well the last one is taken care of by x-www-browser, kde just doesn't use that...
[21:52] <Tonio_> and without a way to distribute settings -> no corporate market share
[21:52] <Tonio_> and without corporate market share -> no public market share
[21:52] <Tonio_> because is goes in that order
[21:52] <Tonio_> not the other way
[21:53] <apachelogger> [Copyright: 2007 by Darth Vader, DARKSTAR Linux Project *]
[21:53] <apachelogger> -.-
[21:53] <apachelogger> yay for proper copyrights
[21:53] <Tonio_> yuriy: does evolution use x-www-browser ? I really doubt that
[21:53] <Tonio_> yuriy: btw the problem isn't examples, the problem is that freedesktop just sucks
[21:54] <ScottK> apachelogger: pseudonymous copyrights are still valid.
[21:54] <Tonio_> as they have defined 10000000 things without thinking of the base : how do we configure the computer easilly
[21:54] <Tonio_> and that windows does it for 12 years, at least
[21:54] <yuriy> Tonio_: no clue, i haven't used evolution, but kde programs use kfmclient, and non-kde programs on kubuntu use x-www-browser (bug 52670)
[21:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 52670 in thunderbird "Kubuntu setting default components don't affect gnome/gtk apps" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/52670
[21:55] <yuriy> Tonio_: but on windows there is one entity setting the standards
[21:55] <yuriy> that was one point bringing up kconfig/gconf
[21:55] <apachelogger> ScottK: right, just imagine the lawyer: "Mr. Vader licensed it's code under the GNU GPL as published by the FSF which tells to keep the code open, SCO however doesn't want to release the code."
[21:55] <Tonio_> yuriy: and why wouldn't they use a "prefered-browser" setting set in a common place where command-line, gnome, gtk, kde, qt, java apps would look into ?
[21:55] <apachelogger> I actually like the idea :D
[21:56] <Tonio_> yuriy: the problem is  not only gnome and kde
[21:56] <apachelogger> Tonio_: the reason is, none cares
[21:56] <Tonio_> yuriy: why should I learn what is the syntax of the config file of an app ?
[21:56] <Tonio_> why is sudoers file that different from httpd.conf ?
[21:56] <yuriy> there are "standard" ways to store settings on linux, there are just several such standards and getting even the 2 primary desktop environments to agree, not to mention all the server apps, is a problem
[21:56] <Tonio_> apachelogger: sure, and that's the prolem
[21:56] <apachelogger> well
[21:56] <apachelogger> since you care
[21:56] <Tonio_> apachelogger: because people need that, and ms cares about that
[21:56] <apachelogger> go ahead and change something
[21:57] <Tonio_> apachelogger: how ? ;)
[21:57] <yuriy> one could say "gconf is a great way to store settings, let's use it for everything"
[21:57] <apachelogger> Tonio_: nah, certain people need that
[21:57] <yuriy> and that may not be a bad idea
[21:57] <Tonio_> apachelogger: no technical issue there, the problem is defining a standard
[21:57] <yuriy> but how to get people to go along?
[21:57] <Tonio_> like pam is
[21:57] <Tonio_> like .desktop files are
[21:57] <apachelogger> Tonio_: right, and someone has to do that
[21:57] <apachelogger> but this will only be someone who cares
[21:57] <ScottK> Tonio_: Is f.d.o the right place to do that?
[21:58] <Tonio_> ScottK: at least to start, yes, cause the big problem is probably the deskto
[21:58] <Tonio_> ScottK: you don't "distribute" httpd.conf files on 10000 machines in companies
[21:58] <Tonio_> but with desktop computers you have to be able to
[21:59] <Tonio_> ScottK: I have done both, and honnestly, completly reconfiguring 10000 windows machines take me 1 day
[21:59] <ScottK> Right.  I was thinking that scalability is a lot more important for desktop penetration than for servers.
[21:59] <yuriy> though as far as desktop configuration goes, i think sharing config folders over NFS works pretty well
[21:59] <Tonio_> doing that for 50 linux machines can take weeks.......
[21:59] <Tonio_> isn't that stupid ;)
[21:59] <Tonio_> but yeah, linux desktop deserve a big debate on that subject
[21:59] <apachelogger> yuriy: ah
[21:59] <Tonio_> because there is NO WAY to make it to succeed without this
[22:00] <apachelogger> syncing is the way to go
[22:00] <apachelogger> what if the connection goes wocka?
[22:00] <apachelogger> desktop goes wocka as well?
[22:00] <Tonio_> some would say "kde isn't linux specific", true, but why wouldn't be the "settings storage" system configurable
[22:00] <Tonio_> as you can choose to use your sql backend for example ?
[22:00] <nixternal> hi, my name is Rich and I feel like hacking...what can I do for you today? as it stands, I am currently fighting sleep and trying to get Amarok2 to play my cabowaboradio.com stream
[22:01] <apachelogger> Amarok2
[22:01] <apachelogger> mhhh
[22:01] <apachelogger> right
[22:01] <apachelogger> -.-
[22:01] <ScottK> Well I'd say come up with a plan, pick one setting item that all can agree should be worked out (fonts is perhaps a good place to start or maybe monitor settings), get agreement on the one piece within f.d.o and go for world domination from there.
[22:01] <yuriy> apachelogger: well it depends on the environment. if you have a bunch of desktops permantently on a LAN i think nfs is good. for laptops you need to sync
[22:01] <Tonio_> yuriy: sharing folders over nfs ?
[22:01] <ScottK> nixternal: Did you see my note about libdvdcss
[22:01] <nixternal> apachelogger: on KDE 4 here...I am affraid to update amarok2 because as it stands, it tends to work a bit
[22:01] <apachelogger> yuriy: nah, still the connection can break one way or another
[22:01] <nixternal> ScottK: can't say that I did
[22:01] <Tonio_> yuriy: that is just simply ridiculous compared to what you can do with active directory
[22:01] <Tonio_> yuriy: kiosk can be compared to what active directory and GPO can do
[22:02] <ScottK> nixternal: OK.  Don't promise it with Kaffeine in the release notes.  Probably won't happen.
[22:02] <apachelogger> nixternal: the important word is a bit ;-)
[22:02] <nixternal> ScottK: did you see that KDE has pinentry-qt4?
[22:02] <ScottK> nixternal: I did.
[22:02] <nixternal> groovy
[22:02] <Tonio_> yuriy: but kiosk is only used by globally 30% of desktop apps, gconf the other 30%, and 30% for desktop independant apps
[22:02] <nixternal> I went to search for a pinentry file and found it in my KDE repo drive :)
[22:02] <ScottK> nixternal: Now I just need to point the aegyptian folks at it.
[22:02]  * apachelogger notes that Tonio_ is making him feel depressed
[22:02] <Tonio_> the registry works for 95% of windows apps, and that makes all the difference
[22:03] <Tonio_> ScottK: I've been thinking about that for month now
[22:03] <apachelogger> Tonio_: really, how about stop whining and start working on a solution?
[22:03] <ScottK> OTOH, registry is why I have to do annual Windows re-installs (back when I had it).
[22:03] <Tonio_> and honnestly, the frustrating part is that this shouldn't be complicated to do
[22:03] <Tonio_> but free software has that problem
[22:03] <apachelogger> so do it already
[22:03] <Tonio_> technical things are easy to do
[22:03] <ScottK> Tonio_: As with many things, the hard part will be social, not technical.
[22:03] <nixternal> hrmm, I have been working on a hangman script, actually it is called HangBallmer, and I have been gathering a list of words, but just realised, I could probably just use the dict protocol and use their dictionary
[22:03] <Tonio_> but making most people to agree on plans and future of the projects is just IMPOSSIBLE
[22:04] <apachelogger> nixternal: lol, now that was a waste of time, hu? :P
[22:04] <nixternal> ya
[22:04] <Tonio_> ScottK: the difference is that with companies and corporate apps, there is no problem with the social part
[22:04] <apachelogger> Tonio_: so why does anyone use pam?
[22:04] <Tonio_> microsft decides that settings have to go in the registry, and everyone does it
[22:04] <Tonio_> and it works
[22:04] <Tonio_> and much better than in linux, to be honnest
[22:04] <Tonio_> at least on that point
[22:04] <ScottK> Tonio_: At that level yes, but for lots of other stuff, social stuff is a problem.
[22:05] <Tonio_> apachelogger: anyone uses pam because pam wasn't done by FSF
[22:05] <Tonio_> it exists because of unix
[22:05] <apachelogger> so what?
[22:05] <apachelogger> do I have to use it because canonical tells me to?
[22:05] <Tonio_> apachelogger: linux and the free software world respects what it inherits
[22:05] <apachelogger> or Novell since they have the unix copyright apprently ;-)
[22:06] <Tonio_> but it is unable to do what was done before it, : define standards
[22:06] <Tonio_> apachelogger: everyone uses it because of historical reasons
[22:06] <Tonio_> apachelogger: but is there a real standard that came out recently ?
[22:06] <Tonio_> maybe dbus, which is a good point
[22:06] <apachelogger> hal
[22:07] <Tonio_> but that always is on low level tasks
[22:07] <apachelogger> desktop file config stuff
[22:07] <apachelogger> xdesktop mimetypes
[22:07] <Tonio_> on the high level side, it is just a super mess
[22:07] <apachelogger> Tonio_: you have to start somewhere
[22:07] <Tonio_> why didn't gnome and kde agree on the same backend (beagle, tracker, strigi, xapian.......) for files scanning ?
[22:07] <Tonio_> even on that point they'll diverge
[22:07] <Tonio_> they ALWAYS diverge on everything (most of the time)
[22:08] <Tonio_> which is bad for the user, honnestly
[22:08] <apachelogger> ehm
[22:08] <Tonio_> because you can hardly use a full gnome desktop in corporate, as well as kde
[22:08] <apachelogger> isnXESAM is
[22:08] <apachelogger> well
[22:08] <apachelogger> <-- drunken
[22:08] <apachelogger> xesam is providng that crap isn't it?
[22:08] <apachelogger> a generic access structure to use whatever searchbackend
[22:09] <Tonio_> xesam ?
[22:09] <Tonio_> apachelogger: that's exactly what I hate !!!!!!!
[22:09] <apachelogger> the dbus api crap for freedesktop compatible search engines
[22:09] <apachelogger> imagine
[22:09] <apachelogger> beagle becomes super fast
[22:09] <apachelogger> gnome is bound to tracker and kde to strigi
[22:09] <Tonio_> "okay we haven't been able to do one backend, so we did 10, and then a standard to be able to use the 10 backends"
[22:09] <apachelogger> no way to get beagle in without any problems
[22:09] <Tonio_> that's RIDICULOUS !
[22:10] <apachelogger> Tonio_: why is it?
[22:10] <apachelogger> competition is the best thing you can have in any sitution
[22:10] <Tonio_> apachelogger: because having one backend is always easier
[22:10] <apachelogger> and crap
[22:10] <apachelogger> ye have a backend
[22:10] <apachelogger> it works
[22:10] <Tonio_> I don't mean that everything has to be unic, but on some points, it is better when done that way
[22:10] <apachelogger> no reason to make it faster
[22:10] <apachelogger> no reason to doubt its design
[22:10] <apachelogger> no reason to do anything that might result in something bad
[22:11] <Tonio_> apachelogger: competition is nice, true
[22:11] <apachelogger> the constant in the search thingy is the xesam
[22:11] <Tonio_> apachelogger: but imho pam is the best example
[22:11] <Tonio_> apachelogger: competition is nice, but when everyone goes in the same direction, you always get faster
[22:12] <apachelogger> oh
[22:12] <apachelogger> you reach a certain goal faster
[22:12] <Tonio_> eyp
[22:12] <Tonio_> yep
[22:12] <apachelogger> which was defined at some point in the past
[22:12] <apachelogger> but
[22:12] <apachelogger> as soon as you did
[22:12] <apachelogger> you stop evolving
[22:12] <Tonio_> probably better than going in 10 directions without reaching any goal, which sometimes happen in free software world
[22:12] <Tonio_> apachelogger: want an example ?
[22:13] <Tonio_> groupware apps
[22:13] <apachelogger> why shouldn't they reach any goal?
[22:13] <Tonio_> we have 10 groupwares
[22:13] <Tonio_> none that "just works" simply
[22:13] <Tonio_> windows world doesn't have 10 groupwares, there are mostly 2 of them : domino server and exchange
[22:13] <Tonio_> they do work
[22:14] <Tonio_> have you tried linux/free groupwares ?
[22:14] <Tonio_> they all are crap
[22:14] <apachelogger> oh
[22:14] <apachelogger> they don't fit your defintion that's all
[22:14] <Tonio_> apachelogger: they don't fit corporate needs
[22:14] <apachelogger> groupware is a bad example because the goals are _very_ different
[22:14] <Tonio_> apachelogger: and only companies need a groupware
[22:14] <apachelogger> Tonio_: as from what I got, most of them don't intent
[22:14] <apachelogger> oh
[22:14] <apachelogger> what about projects?
[22:15] <apachelogger> I mean
[22:15] <Tonio_> do project need a groupware ?
[22:15] <Tonio_> ubuntu doesn't afaik
[22:15] <apachelogger> everyone in floss does something because it makes sense for him/her
[22:15] <Tonio_> projects needs a forge more than a groupware
[22:15] <apachelogger> so these groupwares have to make sense for someone
[22:16] <Tonio_> apachelogger: can you imagin that the only well supported mail client by free groupwares is outlook ?
[22:16] <Tonio_> apachelogger: isn't that the worst thing ever ?
[22:16] <Tonio_> but that's the real......;
[22:16]  * apachelogger doubts that for kolab
[22:16] <apachelogger> so
[22:16] <apachelogger> someone has to use it in a company
[22:17] <apachelogger> because outlook is just the best grupware
[22:17] <Tonio_> you mean exchange no ?
[22:17] <Tonio_> I don't consider exchange the best groupware
[22:17] <Tonio_> I consider exchange a groupware that works
[22:17] <apachelogger> ah, outlook the best pimsuite :D
[22:18] <Tonio_> of course you can't choose to store your mail in oracle, mysql, openldap, mbox files, whatever
[22:18] <Tonio_> you may not have choice
[22:18] <Tonio_> but it works
[22:18]  * apachelogger notes that he is using openxchange at school
[22:18] <apachelogger> quite sucessfully
[22:18] <Tonio_> and groupware is the best example of the sometimes stupidy of free software
[22:18] <apachelogger> Tonio_: you can't see free software as one big thing
[22:18] <Tonio_> apachelogger: yes, but how many things are missing, and what a work to make it to work ?
[22:19] <apachelogger> amarok development acts all differnt from banshee development
[22:19] <Tonio_> simply because they want to support 20 backends for data storage ?
[22:19] <Tonio_> apachelogger: look at samba, that's the good example
[22:19] <apachelogger> Tonio_: they don't
[22:19] <apachelogger> they don't want
[22:19] <Tonio_> apachelogger: what did they decide to make something that really works ?
[22:19] <apachelogger> ox just works
[22:19] <apachelogger> at least for us
[22:19] <Tonio_> stop to work with openldap, and maintain their own ldap server
[22:20] <Tonio_> why ? because it is really, really hard, I guess for big free software projects to work together
[22:20] <Tonio_> apachelogger: sure it does
[22:20] <apachelogger> i guess for big companies it's hard to work together
[22:21] <ScottK> Tonio_: It's hard for anyone to work together.
[22:21] <Tonio_> apachelogger: sure, vista is the best example
[22:21] <apachelogger> ScottK: so true
[22:21] <Tonio_> apachelogger: I'm just getting tired sometimes to see 10 projects and no mature product in it.....
[22:22] <apachelogger> Tonio_: as long as they are moving forward
[22:22] <yuriy> Tonio_: are you by any chance inspired by and/or the submitter of today's slashdot article on this topic?
[22:22] <Tonio_> ScottK: of course, but there are things, especially on the desktop side, that should be unified
[22:23] <Tonio_> ScottK: freedesktop should go way further imho
[22:23] <Tonio_> yuriy: no, is there a slashdot article about that ?
[22:23] <yuriy> http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/29/176253
[22:23] <ScottK> Tonio_: Agreed.  Probably the best way to get it done is if distros get together and start insisting.
[22:23] <Tonio_> yuriy: no that's just something I'm thinking about for a long time and that just bored me this week more than ever
[22:23] <yuriy> Tonio_: about how there are lots of FOSS calendaring things but none as good as Microsofts
[22:23] <apachelogger> ScottK: then again distros have different insteressts
[22:24] <Tonio_> yuriy: calendaring isn't the real problem
[22:24] <apachelogger> which makes the whole getting together thing quite hard to do IMO
[22:24] <ScottK> apachelogger: True, but this is one where the major distros offering both desktops have a common interest.
[22:24] <Tonio_> yuriy: how can I simply allow someone to access a part of my emails ?
[22:24] <yuriy> Tonio_: well it's just part of the whole groupware thing
[22:24] <apachelogger> ScottK: yeah
[22:24] <Tonio_> how can I delegate my mailbox to someone during vacations etc.......
[22:24] <Tonio_> that's what a groupware is for
[22:24] <Tonio_> a groupware isn't only an imap + ical server
[22:25] <ScottK> apachelogger: Get K/Ubuntu, opensuse, and fedora to agree and I suspect Gnome/KDE will kind of have to listen.
[22:25] <Tonio_> and that, you have groupwares that do the left part, and some that do the right part of it
[22:25] <Tonio_> none does it all
[22:25] <Tonio_> that's what frustrated me so much
[22:25] <apachelogger> ScottK: they will do even if just one wants something, it's just that someone needs to do it
[22:26] <yuriy> ScottK: i think the problem with desktop configuration stuff is that each desktop has their system and both are good systems, but if "we"/fd.o deside on one, then the other group have to do all the work to change their implementation
[22:26] <apachelogger> yuriy: fd.o wouldn't decide on one
[22:26] <apachelogger> even more take one and refine it
[22:27] <apachelogger> using the advantages of the other system
[22:27] <Tonio_> yuriy: no
[22:27] <Tonio_> yuriy: kde apps can you kconfig to read and write settings
[22:27] <yuriy> apachelogger: then what? make a new one instead of using all the work already done?
[22:27] <Tonio_> yuriy: only kdelibs then knows how to
[22:27] <Tonio_> yuriy: make kde use gconf wouldn't be easy but not impossible, since only the kconfig part would need implementation
[22:27] <apachelogger> yuriy: nah, they usually take a base system and enhance it
[22:27] <apachelogger> see dbus vs. dcop
[22:28] <Tonio_> when searching for apprc file, then use app branch in the registry etc.....
[22:28] <yuriy> apachelogger: ok but point being is that if they take kconfig and enhance it, then there will be a little work to do for KDE, but a lot more work to do for gnome
[22:28] <yuriy> and vice versa if they start with gconf
[22:28] <Tonio_> yuriy: kconfig is not a backend !
[22:29] <apachelogger> yep, but that's not really something kde or gnome would start whining about
[22:29] <Tonio_> kconfig is a class, only a class
[22:29] <apachelogger> as long as the resulting system is reasonable, stable and flexible
[22:29] <yuriy> Tonio_: ok how to refer to the syntax and set of rc files?
[22:29] <Tonio_> yuriy: what is a rc file ?
[22:29] <Tonio_> you have a .kde/share/config folder
[22:30] <Tonio_> then a apprc file, with bla=toto values in it
[22:30] <Tonio_> use a gconf branch, tagged appname
[22:30] <Tonio_> and write the values in it
[22:30] <Tonio_> where is the different ?
[22:30]  * yuriy doesn't know how gconf stores configs
[22:30] <Tonio_> it is just a way to store settings, nothing else
[22:30] <Tonio_> yuriy: consider this xml structure
[22:31] <Tonio_> yuriy: tree thing, whatever
[22:31] <Tonio_> yuriy: want another example of what should be defined ?
[22:31] <Tonio_> with vista, you can use the "kmix" equivalent, to set the sound level, and you can do this application by application
[22:32] <Tonio_> how to do that with kde apps ? all you have to do (mostly) is to define that in an rc file, sound level should always be defined with the same variable
[22:32] <Tonio_> so that there is a way to search for the value globally in all rc files
[22:33] <Tonio_> but that's unlikelly to happen, cause every developper will consider "soundlevel" stupid setting name
[22:33] <Tonio_> one will use "sound-level", and the other one "sound_level"
[22:33] <Tonio_> and in the meantime, windows has a super feature that we will hardly get one day......
[22:34] <Tonio_> with a global and standard way to store settings, all of that is way easier to do
[22:35] <yuriy> Tonio_: so in what way is that not possible with rc files? or to put it another way, how is the "sound-level" vs "sound_level" etc problem not equally possible with the registry?
[22:35] <Tonio_> honnestly, I wish sometimes that instead of trolling about windows, some linux users use it deeply, and looks at some of tis concepts
[22:35] <Tonio_> that would be profitable to free software, really
[22:36] <Tonio_> they should look at Active Directory, look at the gpo mecanism, look at how powerfull is a windows/ad print server..... and come back to the troll later ;)
[22:36] <Tonio_> yuriy: rc files are nice too
[22:36] <Tonio_> because with rc files you use the file system as the tree
[22:36] <Tonio_> and the files as branch
[22:37] <Tonio_> the kiosk mecanism to merge branches dynamically
[22:37] <Tonio_> except the appearance is completly different, that globally is a kind of registry
[22:37] <Tonio_> yuriy: but the way to store settings isn't the big deal
[22:38] <Tonio_> yuriy: making all big desktop projects to agree on the one to use is
[22:38] <Tonio_> yuriy: look at the registry
[22:38] <Tonio_> technically it is inferior to a ldap server, an sql database (poor performances for the ms registry), or gconf
[22:39] <Tonio_> but because it is the only way to do on windows, the result is WAY better
[22:39] <Tonio_> the all active directory wouldn't be possible without this
[22:39] <Tonio_> and we already have the tools for linux
[22:39] <Tonio_> it's just unlikelly to happen because nobody will agree to use the other's tool
[22:40] <Tonio_> as khtml people crying today because they don't want webkit
[22:40] <Tonio_> which is stupid too, since webkit is way better than khtml
[22:40] <Tonio_> and would be even better with the khtml people working on it.....
[22:40] <yuriy> so what we need is a fd.o standard. the social problem being is if that is based on one of the current systems, the other group(s) will have to do all their work porting while the devs of the chosen system can gloat
[22:40]  * Tonio_ is really bored today.....
[22:40] <Tonio_> yuriy: yes, fd.o should do MUCH more
[22:40] <ScottK> yuriy: It has to be a system that's new to both.
[22:41] <Tonio_> ScottK: why so
[22:41] <Tonio_> ?
[22:41] <Tonio_> why not gconf ? :)
[22:41] <yuriy> ScottK: but that just seems silly. just so that everybody has to do work equally?
[22:41] <Tonio_> ScottK: or kiosk :)
[22:41] <Tonio_> ScottK: btw, something like pam, or opensync
[22:41] <Tonio_> that's what I want, a framework with plugins
[22:41] <ScottK> The social problem.  One group would never accept the other's solution.
[22:42] <Tonio_> ScottK: and that's what is better with proprietary apps
[22:42] <Tonio_> ScottK: they don't waste 10 years debating when something is to be done......;
[22:43] <ScottK> So make a meta-solution that both can draw from.
[22:43] <yuriy> the bigger issue would still be non-desktop apps
[22:43] <yuriy> which have no sort of standard config syntax
[22:43] <ScottK> Gotta start somewhere.
[22:47] <Tonio_> yuriy: another thing is that proprietary applications that sometimes are needed, in companies, such as acroread for example would be integrated
[22:47] <Tonio_> why don't they use kiosk or gconf today ?
[22:47] <Tonio_> because they don't want to waste their time is doing the way the desktop does, and they right on that point
[22:48] <Tonio_> a unified way to store settings would make them to implement it btw
[22:48] <Tonio_> they currently do one way on windows and one way on linux
[22:48] <Tonio_> the difference is that distribuing settings on windows respect the system standard, not with linux....
[22:49] <Tonio_> the consequence is easy is guess: works much better in corporate environments
[22:49] <Tonio_> sad, but true
[22:49] <Tonio_> how do you change the default homepage for firefox on 10000 machines ?
[22:50] <Tonio_> you have to make a script with that you distribute via a package hacking the /etc/firefox/profile setting, and the .mozill user folder......
[22:50] <Tonio_> just for one app... and there are many, many apps like that
[22:51] <Tonio_> some of the most important btw, like OOo, Firefox, tbird, acroread etc.....;
[22:51] <Tonio_> each application is a specific case
[23:30] <Tonio_> Consortiumany motu out there ?
[23:33] <mhb> hi folks
[23:35] <mhb> aaand ... goodnight