[02:34] <atlfalcons866> is hardy alpha out now
[02:37] <bernier> tomorrow I think
[02:42] <atlfalcons866> thanks
[02:46] <bernier> does anyone know if hardy alpha will be using 2.6.22 or 2.6.23 kernel?
[02:49] <RAOF> 2.6.22
[02:49] <RAOF> Since it's out today/tomorrow (depending on your timezone).
[02:51] <bernier> well what's the exact time if there's one
[02:51] <RAOF> When it's done.
[02:51] <RAOF> None of the Ubuntu releases have an *exact* time, IIRC.
[02:52] <RAOF> "Thursday, GMT+0" is about all you'll be getting :)
[02:52] <crdlb> the release time is always an exact multiple of pi
[02:55] <RAOF> No, it's not.
[02:55] <RAOF> Unless by 'exact multiple' you don't mean 'integer multiple'.
[02:56] <RAOF> Irrational numbers never appear in reality.
[02:56] <ToxinPowe> :)
[02:57] <bernier> once it will be released, it will be available through dist-upgrade?
[03:00] <RAOF> You mean, from Gutsy?
[03:01] <bernier> yes
[03:01] <RAOF> As in: will "update-manager -d -c" work?
[03:01] <crimsun> mm, time for another `./pbuilder-dapper create`
[03:02] <RAOF> I don't know.  You can already dist-upgrade by changing gutsy -> hardy in /etc/apt/sources.list
[03:02] <RAOF> crimsun: For dist-upgrade checking?
[03:02] <bernier> oh, it's already released?
[03:02] <crimsun> RAOF: yeah, I'm working on bug 56008
[03:02] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 56008 in gsfonts-x11 "gsfonts-x11 depends on uninstallable transitional package xutils" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/56008
[03:02] <RAOF> crimsun: Yay, fun.
[03:02] <bernier> im updating
[03:02] <bernier> nice
[03:03] <RAOF> bernier: The archives have been open for some time.
[03:03] <bernier> archives?
[03:03] <RAOF> Repositories.  Sources.  Whatever you want to call them :)
[03:03] <crimsun> (the place from which your Ubuntu install will be updated)
[03:04] <bernier> ok
[03:05] <IdleOne> crimsun: would that be the universe or the multiverse?
[03:05] <IdleOne> :)
[03:05] <crimsun> the archive contains them all.
[03:05] <crimsun> /ubuntu/pool/
[03:05] <IdleOne> yes but you must get the key from the keymaker
[03:05] <ToxinPowe> bernier , hardy is not for beginner, its alpha yet
[03:06] <crimsun> ah, but I have a key.  As does RAOF.
[03:06] <crimsun> his key is more shiny, though.
[03:06] <IdleOne> bernier: wait another month or so before upgrading
 i know, but i love fixing stuff
[03:06] <IdleOne> I have a key also
[03:06] <ToxinPowe> ok
[03:06] <crimsun> IdleOne: cool, may I have yours?
[03:06] <IdleOne> no!!! it is mine and has no shine
[03:07] <IdleOne> hey that rhymes
[03:07] <IdleOne> I'm a poet and didnt know it
[03:07] <IdleOne> :P
[03:08] <IdleOne> how do I get my fingers to stop clicking the right mouse button?
[03:08] <bernier> remove your hand from the mouse
[03:09] <IdleOne> genius
[03:09] <IdleOne> it worked
[03:09] <clusty> is there currently a  java problem with hardy?
[03:09] <crimsun> clusty: ...more precisely?
[03:09] <clusty> firefox plugin stopped working and matlab wont start
[03:10] <clusty> some lock issue with libxcb-xlib
[03:10] <RAOF> clusty: Yes, there is.
[03:11] <clusty> googled around and there is some problem between AWT and java (dont really understand)
[03:11] <clusty> time will fix?
[03:11] <RAOF> clusty: The java vm statically links in an (old) copy of xlib (which is built without threading support).  The new xcb based xlib hates this.
[03:11] <RAOF> clusty: Use icedtea-java7
[03:11] <clusty> instead of what?
[03:12] <crimsun> instead of jre[56]
[03:12] <clusty> will try now
[03:12] <RAOF> Remember to update-alternatives
[03:13] <masquerade> hey look! nvidia-glx installs now! :)
[03:14] <RAOF> Has done for some time.
[03:14] <IdleOne> icedtea-java7? what's is this beautiful mix of my two favorite drinks?
[03:14] <RAOF> Ever since the last l-r-m upload, in fact :)
[03:14] <masquerade> hmm, perhaps I've been forgetting to check for a few days then :)
[03:15]  * RAOF was using nouveau before then.  It's pretty good, now.
[03:15] <crimsun> what, you run Hardy and your update && dist-upgrade isn't cronned for every hour?!  =]
[03:15] <masquerade> pssh, I do it by hand twice a day
[03:15] <masquerade> its more exciting that way
[03:16] <crimsun> you're way behind, then.
[03:16] <clusty> lost mplayer
[03:16] <masquerade> well, actually, it may be more exciting to have stuff break and you have no idea why cause it was done in the background
[03:16] <ToxinPowe> crimsun, I dont run updates, my sources links to 18.04 version now
[03:16] <masquerade> hrm,
[03:16] <clusty> why does mplayer depend on sun-java
[03:16] <clusty> ?
[03:16] <ToxinPowe> =)
[03:16] <crimsun> 18.04?  Impressive.
[03:17] <ToxinPowe> yes, not a mistake, only the trust X_)
[03:17] <ToxinPowe> update are for beginners :)
[03:17] <crimsun> clusty: it doesn't.  It's due to a dependency, libungif4g, that was in conflict with one of icedtea's.
[03:18] <crimsun> crimsun@Box:~$ apt-cache show libgif4|grep ^Conf
[03:18] <crimsun> Conflicts: giflib3g, libungif4g
[03:18] <clusty> crimsun: ok. firefox plugin works now
[03:18] <clusty> crimsun: ok. matlab has its own jre
[03:18] <crimsun> crimsun@Box:~$ apt-cache show mplayer-nogui|grep ^Dep|grep ungif  ->  eex1 (>= 1.1.8), libstdc++6 (>= 4.2.1), libsvga1, libtheora0, libungif4g (>= 4.1
[03:18] <clusty> crimsun: which i did not install
[03:18] <clusty> crimsun: any ways to downgrade the other stuff that makes java choke?
[03:19] <crimsun> ..."downgrade"?  To what?  Why?
[03:19] <RAOF> clusty: Not really.  You'd have to pull back all of X & stuff.
[03:19] <clusty> main goal is to get matlab working again
[03:19] <clusty> rite
[03:19] <RAOF> The solution for matlab is probably the use of Gutsy.
[03:19] <crimsun> bah, be brave.  Create a Gutsy pbuilder/schroot and run matlab from it.
[03:20] <crdlb> RAOF: that was my point :)
[03:20] <clusty> whats pbuilder?
[03:20] <RAOF> Or maybe cast around the matlab stuff to look for where it's picking it's JVM from.
[03:21] <clusty> or run a whole virtual machine
[03:21] <clusty> :D
[03:22] <clusty> vmware or something
[03:23] <ToxinPowe> ... or or or use windows...or...
[03:24] <clusty> i sense some irony...
[03:24] <clusty> :D
[03:25] <IdleOne> nahh it's sarcasm
[03:25] <clusty> well, curiosity killed the cat
[03:26] <IdleOne> and satisfaction brought him back...hence the 9 lives
[03:28] <IdleOne> what si the update-alternatives command exactly for java?
[03:28] <IdleOne> s/si/is
[03:29] <RAOF> sudo update-alternatives --config java ?
[03:29] <RAOF> I think.
[03:29] <IdleOne> yup
[03:29] <IdleOne> thank you
[04:17] <Guthin> LiMaO pvt! brother!
[04:17] <Guthin> LiMaO help-me
[04:18] <LiMaO> Guthin: already messaged you. are you registered?
[04:18] <Guthin> LiMaO nopz
[04:18] <LiMaO> Guthin: join #ubuntu-br
[04:26] <RAOF> Ok.  So the answer to "how badly does nouveau handle suspend" is "as badly as possible"
[04:27] <FunnyLookinHat> LOL
[04:27] <RAOF> Actually, I lie.  It *could* corrupt stuff.  Instead it just doesn't resume from suspend :)
[04:27] <FunnyLookinHat> Hibernate still sucks on my gutsy install    : P
[04:28] <FunnyLookinHat> One day it'll work I suppose...
[04:30] <RAOF> Maybe.  Unless you've got a new ATI card.
[04:33] <crdlb> I should really try nouveau on my NV4 and NV11
[04:33] <RAOF> Yeah.  I'm sure ahuillet would love some old-school XV testing.
[04:33] <crdlb> the nvidia driver is so buggy on both chips that I just use nv nowadays
[04:34] <RAOF> Really?
[04:34] <RAOF> In which case nouveau is a step up.
[04:34] <crdlb> just annoying stuff, like with nvidia on my NV11 (a laptop card), I get a weird distorted screen the first time X starts
[04:34] <RAOF> As far as 2D goes, it's currently better (faster) than nv on lots of cards.
[04:34] <crdlb> only fixed by ctrl+alt+bksp after 10 seconds
[04:35] <RAOF> Whee!
[04:35] <RAOF> Blobs FTW
[04:35] <crdlb> yup
[04:36] <crdlb> at least fglrx can use mesa now ^_^
[04:36] <RAOF> Huzzah!
[04:44] <Amaranth> RAOF, crdlb: NV04 doesn't have 2d acceleration with nouveau
[04:45] <Amaranth> the hardware is not compatible with EXA
[04:45] <Amaranth> NV11 should have EXA and Xv though
[04:46]  * Amaranth stabs libusb and iPod Touch
[04:59] <RAOF> Amaranth: I always forget the arcanae about those ancient cards :)
[07:51] <Sikon> When is alpha 1 coming out?
[07:51] <Sikon> the wiki says it's scheduled for today
[07:54] <RAOF> And ubuntu-devel-announce says that it's late, and will likely be coming out tomorrow
[07:54] <Sikon> Ah.
[07:54] <RAOF> Sorry, u-d-discuss.
[07:54] <Sikon> Thanks.
[07:55] <Sikon> Has the name for alpha releases been decided? Like Flight, Knot, Herd, Tribe...
[07:55] <crdlb> I believe it's plain old alpha this time
[07:56] <crdlb> could be wrong though
[07:57] <RAOF> It's Alpha, yeah.
[07:57] <crdlb> that's so sad :(
[07:57] <RAOF> We're not doing flocks this time.
[07:57] <RAOF> We should totally do rooks sometime.  Then our alphas could be "parliaments" :)
[07:57] <crdlb> hahah
[07:59] <crdlb> there should be a "mighty microsoft" release with the alphas called "release candidates"
[08:05] <RAOF> Pulseaudio does a pretty good job of network streaming.
[08:05] <RAOF> It handles my torrenting with aplomb.
[08:41] <databuddy> ah
[08:41] <databuddy> sup RAOF
[10:00] <BUGabundo> hya
[10:01] <BUGabundo> since today comes out alpha 1, is it safe to tried it on a controled envoriment?
[10:02] <Worm> BUGabundo: See the topic.
[10:03] <BUGabundo> lol Worm. x breakage
[10:04] <BUGabundo> and I was considering to do an update-manager to Hardy
[10:05] <nekostar> lol
[10:05] <Worm> You can do what you want, but be sure about what you're doing before upgrade.
[10:05] <nekostar>  BUGabundo if you like broken stuff and trying to fix it this is for you ;)
[10:06] <nekostar> otherwise wait till tribe 2-3 probably
[10:06] <Worm> Indeed
[10:06] <nekostar> as for me
[10:06] <nekostar> i'm gonna give er a shot on friday ;)
[10:06] <nekostar> been toying with gOS as i saw that stuff on the cheap wallmart machines
[10:06] <nekostar> just had to see what that was all about
[10:07] <nekostar> bit simplistic but quite kewl ;)
[10:07] <nekostar> and ive heard there's gonna be lots of new stuff in hardy
[10:07] <nekostar> zomg linux is getting SO awesome hehe
[10:07] <nekostar> ok i think i need food bbl
[10:07] <BUGabundo> great nekostar
[10:07] <nekostar> oh and BUGabundo
[10:07] <nekostar> dont be put off by the its not for you stuff
[10:08] <nekostar> just make sure to have seperate home partition
[10:08] <nekostar> and backup all data's
[10:08] <nekostar> just in case it wipes out a partition or two
[10:08] <nekostar> [things happen now and then]
[10:08] <nekostar> should have seen what happened with dsl-n via flashdrive
[10:08] <nekostar> corrupted my cmos lol
[10:08] <nekostar> and ive still no idea how it managed to do that
[10:08] <nekostar> *shrugs*
[10:09] <nekostar> oh btw
[10:09] <BUGabundo> one of the things we need to have fixed is trackerd!
[10:09] <nekostar> corsair 2gb flash voyager's work great - i would imagine all the sizes of that line should - but the live iso + casper-rw
[10:09] <nekostar> oh i tend to just disable that at first
[10:09] <nekostar> anyway bbl
[10:09]  * nekostar runz
[10:10] <BUGabundo> I leave it on
[10:10] <BUGabundo> its great to find stuff
[10:10] <BUGabundo> but I have allways to run cpulimit on it
[10:10] <BUGabundo> cpulimit -e tracker -l 5-10
[10:23] <embrace-Ubuntu> alpha 1 is not out yet??
[10:24] <Amaranth> no...
[10:25] <BUGabundo> checkout cdimage.ubuntu.com/live embrace-Ubuntu
[10:25] <embrace-Ubuntu> BUGabundo: thx
[10:26] <Amaranth> they probably don't work
[10:26] <BUGabundo> the images, Amaranth?
[10:26] <Amaranth> yes
[10:27] <BUGabundo> I've been doing some packages upgrade to hardy, and already have a lot of breakages!
[10:27] <Amaranth> at this point in the release cycle daily snapshots will almost always be broken
[10:27] <Amaranth> /topic
[10:27] <BUGabundo> I've read it Amaranth
[10:28] <BUGabundo> as I said, only a few packages!
[10:28] <BUGabundo> not the whole system
[10:28] <BUGabundo> stuff like k3b won't even install
[10:28] <BUGabundo> due to dependicies
[10:29] <BUGabundo> or kate
[10:29] <BUGabundo> lol
[10:29] <Amaranth> !ping
[10:29] <ubotu> pong
[10:29] <BUGabundo> it seams to be dependig too much on kde libs not ready yet
[10:46] <BUGabundo> \!ping
[10:46] <BUGabundo> ping
[10:46] <BUGabundo> bad pidgin!!! bad!
[11:17] <BUGabundo> hya again
[11:17] <BUGabundo> what does this mean:
[11:18] <BUGabundo> ** (synaptic:16396): WARNING **: no statusfd changes/content updates in terminal for 120 seconds
[11:18] <BUGabundo> ** (synaptic:16396): WARNING **: TerminalTimeout in step: Preparing to configure libpurple-bin
[12:17] <Lunks> Java is not working for me, and it's not the xcb stuff. Running java --version outputs: Could not create the Java virtual machine.
[12:19] <void^> it's "java -version", not "java --version"
[12:19] <Lunks> whoops =P
[12:21] <Lunks> I thought that would be easier to debug, but running a java app is not working as well.
[12:22] <Lunks> running java jSMS-253.jar (a well known java app), outputs: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: jSMS-253/jar
[12:22] <seiflotfy> guys need help here
[12:22] <seiflotfy> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/46214/
[12:24] <Lunks> hmm seems to be something with the program itself, not hardy
[12:24] <Lunks> weird =P
[12:27] <Hobbsee> seiflotfy: for future reference, it would alawys be nice to provide a bit of context on what your pastebin is about
[12:32] <void^> Lunks: err, how are you running it? looks like you forgot -jar
[12:32] <Lunks> just had to use java -jar to run it, btw.
[12:32] <Lunks> yeah =P
[12:32] <Lunks> I hadn't run it for a long time, looks like I forgot it. :P
[13:01] <Lunks> ubuntu+1 is much quieter than ubuntu, nice. ;)
[13:04] <Lunks> There isn't a localized #ubuntu+1, is it?
[13:08] <Hobbsee> no
[13:08] <Hobbsee> Lunks: and this isn't a replacement #ubuntu, either
[13:08] <Lunks> I know, did I said the opposite? =P
[13:09] <Hobbsee> no, but i'm unsure if you were inferring it :)
[13:09] <Lunks> No, I'm running hardy indeed. :)
[13:23] <IdleOne> Bug #109754
[13:23] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 109754 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Webcam image for my ZC0302 is upside down and of poor quality. This is a regression from Edgy " [Medium,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/109754
[13:24] <IdleOne> won't fix? does that mean it can not be fixed or will not be fixed?
[13:25] <Hobbsee> will not fix.
[13:26] <Hobbsee> (in feisty/gutsy)
[13:33] <poorenglish> hi, is alpha 1 available now?
[13:34] <Tomcat_> poorenglish: No, will be tomorrow.
[13:34] <poorenglish> thx
[13:35] <Lunks> live cds are already available? where can we see what have been changed?
[13:37] <Tomcat_> Lunks: The current LiveCDs are not the alpha. You can see changelogs in Launchpad.
[13:39] <Lunks> ok
[14:08] <BUGabundo> hay
[14:09] <BUGabundo> I'm on edge
[14:09] <BUGabundo> and something really strange is going on
[14:09] <Pici> BUGabundo: This channel is for Hardy (version after Gutsy) support
[14:09] <BUGabundo> there's no text box to insert the package for bug submits!
[14:10] <BUGabundo> sorry
[14:10] <BUGabundo> wrong window
[15:36] <wasabi> Howdy. My hald has ceased working. Basically the hal initscript fails. If you run hal manually, it starts, briefly, starts some addons, then terminates.
[15:37] <wasabi> addons keep running
[15:37] <Lunks> My pen drives are not automatically mounting.
[15:55] <webjames> Hi what's this i hear about a now look for hardy?
[15:58] <IdleOne> webjames: yup they are going to make it look just like Windows 95. blue screen and all
[15:59] <webjames> blue screen, or bsod?
[15:59] <IdleOne> webjames: I was just kidding. I havent heard anything about a new look
[15:59] <IdleOne> what is your source?
[16:00] <webjames> IdleOne, http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071101-hardy-heron-visual-theme-planned-at-the-ubuntu-developer-summit.html
[16:04] <IdleOne> webjames: guess they will be working on a new look for hardy
[16:04] <IdleOne> if that source is reliable
[17:00] <Ownatik> Hi, when I log in, desktop starts to load and I can see my things, but then screen turns white and stays white
[17:13] <LiMaO> Ownatik: are you using hardy?
[17:14] <Ownatik> yes
[17:16] <Ownatik> sorry unplugged my modem by acccident :p
[17:18] <Ownatik> yes im using hardy
[17:30] <wet> hi where can i get the firs lpha of hardy??? (its 11.29.07)
[17:31] <poorenglish> wet, tomorrow
[17:31] <wet> kk thx
[17:31] <wet> isnt released yet??
[17:32] <wet> kk but 1 day late is ok :D
[17:32] <wet> cu
[17:46] <Laser87> Hi!
[19:05] <webjames> o
[19:43] <webjames> these' not a whole lot of blueprints for hardy
[19:43] <webjames> there's*
[19:44] <webjames> i guess it's early stages
[20:10] <webjames> does anyone know about the pulseaudio thing?
[20:24] <khermans> is Hardy Alpha1 released yet
[20:24] <khermans> ?
[20:28] <h3sp4wn> khermans: No
[20:28] <khermans> h3sp4wn, is it planned?
[20:28] <h3sp4wn> khermans: I presume its planned - no idea when for though
[20:30] <khermans> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[20:33] <h3sp4wn> webjames: What do you want to know about it - I know what it is
[20:33] <h3sp4wn> And finally as of oss-4.1 the envy24 driver will be GPL/CCDL'ed
[21:40] <webjames> h3sp4wn, sorry i was just cooking, i was just wondering what it was. an audio driver of sorts?
[21:41] <webjames> i've just installed them on gutsy i htink
[21:42] <h3sp4wn> webjames: They are audio drivers yes - But if pulse audio is implimented as the standard then whether alsa or oss is used should not make any difference (given any unconformant apps are fixed to work with pulseaudio)
[21:44] <webjames> cool,
[21:45] <webjames> thanks h3sp4wn, how would i override esd in gutsy?
[21:47] <h3sp4wn> With pulseaudio ? dunno only machine I have with good quality speakers uses oss (with solaris though) my laptop has hardy but I have not messed with it much
[21:48] <webjames> cool, i'll just have a play around. thanks again
[21:55] <webjames> what else major is going into hardy?
[21:55] <webjames> there is few blueprints
[21:56] <h3sp4wn> dunno - most of the interesting ones never seem to be implimented anyway
[21:57] <webjames> like?
[21:58] <h3sp4wn> multiarch - the wonderfully great /etc/event.d full replacement (slated for edgy+2)
[21:58] <webjames> i know i'd like to see a fresh look to complement compiz
[22:00] <webjames> i might give hardy a look see if i can suggest anything
[22:16] <h3sp4wn> webjames: If you want something it better either a) be easy to do or b) you are going to do it
[22:16] <tonyyarusso> What kernel is hardy at today?
[22:17] <webjames> yeah, i'm an idea's man. it might spark inspiration in someone who has the time to do it.
[22:17] <RAOF> 2.6.22
[22:17] <h3sp4wn> tonyyarusso: not seen a 24 one in the repos yet (I just built one)
[22:17] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: That's the same as Gutsy, right?
[22:17] <RAOF> Yup.
[22:17] <tonyyarusso> ah, ok
[22:17] <h3sp4wn> tonyyarusso: use the one from git
[22:17]  * tonyyarusso just upgraded a box and found that curious
[22:24] <h3sp4wn> webjames: oh - the grumpy groundhog distro - I was interested in that also
[22:25]  * webjames looks
[22:26] <webjames> seems a good idea, did it ever get off the ground?
[22:27] <h3sp4wn> webjames: I don't expect anything anymore just see what I get (Not costing me anything) however if I was involved with RedHat / Suse / Debian I would be a bit irritated
[22:27] <webjames> you pay something?
[22:29] <h3sp4wn> webjames: No - but most of the GPL code is paid for by RedHat / Suse (and others IBM / SGI / Sun) - most of the packaging is done by Debian
[22:29] <h3sp4wn> But ubuntu is marketed as it is (and spends comparively nothing on stuff for everyone else - even mandriva is 50% paid oss developers)
[22:30] <webjames> i see, i didn't realise that. canonical pays for some of it to though?  argh, is it just me or is half the internet not working. softpedia.com linuxmint.com
[22:30] <h3sp4wn> webjames: It doesn't really (in any substantial way) that is the problem
[22:31] <webjames> it's popular though
[22:32] <h3sp4wn> webjames: And that wouldn't be an issue were Canocial as a commercial entity not involved with it
[22:33] <webjames> surly commercial back is a good thing
[22:34] <h3sp4wn> webjames: In some ways (if they act as the other big vendors do)
[22:35] <webjames> how are they acting differently? not sharing?
[22:36] <h3sp4wn> webjames: Look at the stuff that is coming out of those companies that is not directly related to themselves
[22:36] <h3sp4wn> i.e for Linux as a whole - or releasing expensive programs they bought etc
[22:37] <h3sp4wn> (as gpl)
[22:37] <webjames> i see, i'd like to see more gpl'd programs
[22:38] <webjames> i understand what you mean, i guess as ubuntu gets more success then more will be required, and expected
[22:38] <h3sp4wn> I would like to see more of the hard stuff that Debian wants to do done (that ubuntu wants but is waiting for Debian to do)
[22:38] <h3sp4wn> throwing cash at that could get it done for the benefit of all (more than sending out CD's that need more than 600MB of updates by the time someone gets around to using them()
[22:38] <IdleOne> h3sp4wn: such as?
[22:39] <h3sp4wn> IdleOne: multiarch
[22:39] <h3sp4wn> IdleOne: upstart actually being completed (and being comparable in quality to Solaris SMF)
[22:40] <webjames> you mean stopping duplicate packages?
[22:40] <h3sp4wn> a filesystem / lvm that is like ZFS for Linux - tons of stuff probably that could be implimented for the cash that is spent on sending out cd's
[22:40] <webjames> i would like to see ZFS
[22:41] <webjames> or similar
[22:42] <h3sp4wn> With indiana the advantages of Linux might be gone anyway (for me) - and as they are modelling it on ubuntu's business model it could work
[22:43] <h3sp4wn> (Sun even sends out the dvd's in a proper jewel case and more promptly - I think that was a direct rip off)
[22:43] <webjames> what do you mean?
[22:43] <webjames> i didn't know ubuntu shipped cd free?
[22:43] <h3sp4wn> webjames: Its the opensolaris kernel - with a package manager and a gnu userland
[22:43] <h3sp4wn> webjames: shipit.ubuntu.com (costs millions I think)
[22:44] <webjames> oh yeah. look at that
[22:45] <IdleOne> h3sp4wn: I just did a quick google on multiarch if I understand correctly it is the abilty to take packages from different architectures such as pc or mac and run on linux or vice versa?
[22:45] <webjames> i guess it's advertising. think how much companies spend on that
[22:46] <h3sp4wn> IdleOne: you can mix packages from anything your processor can use (i.e lib32 and lib64) and just use 64 bit when it makes sense
[22:47] <h3sp4wn> webjames: Yeah but no R&D ?
[22:49] <RAOF> h3sp4wn: The trouble with implementing multiarch before debian is that universe would die.
[22:50] <webjames> i would like to see canonical develop something like ZFS
[22:50] <RAOF> We have ~16K source packages (and ~20K binary packages IIRC), and about 20 or so active MOTUs.
[22:51] <RAOF> There's no way we could carry such a broad divergence from debian.
[22:51] <RAOF> webjames: Or just use ZFS, since it already exists :)
[22:51] <webjames> yeah, wrong licence though
[22:51] <h3sp4wn> fuse zfs is not a solution
[22:52] <RAOF> Ask them nicely to add GPLv2?
[22:52] <h3sp4wn> I think Sun would complain if ubuntu just integrated it using that runtime linking hack they use for nvidia & co
[22:53] <h3sp4wn> There is parts of it in grub under GPL2 anyway
[22:53] <webjames> problem is it's gplv2
[22:53] <RAOF> You mean v3, right?
[22:54] <h3sp4wn> zfs is ccdl
[22:54] <webjames> dual licence gplv2
[22:54] <h3sp4wn> but sun uses grub as a bootloader so it has had to put parts of into grub (to boot from zfs)
[22:54] <webjames> sorry no
[22:54] <RAOF> webjames: Again, v3.  If it were dual licensed as gplv2, it'd already be in the kernel.
[22:54] <webjames> yeah sorry
[22:55] <webjames> it's not gpl anything just on this website it said it was, but i think it was what he was hoping for, not what was actually true
[22:57] <h3sp4wn> webjames: It will be in freebsd 7 (and probably the desktop oriented bsd's) there is nexenta (ubuntu with opensolaris kernel)
[22:57] <webjames> i think opensolaris was going gplv3, but the linux kernel is gplv2
[22:58] <webjames> look: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39287520,00.htm
[23:00] <webjames> thing i don't understand is why it would be a one way street?
[23:02] <h3sp4wn> Afaik nothing could go either way (other than Linux people specifically re licensing their stuff under GPLv3
[23:03] <webjames> i mean assuming sun went gplv3, and linux went gplv3
[23:03] <webjames> that artical seems to imply that it would be one way from linux to sun.
[23:03] <h3sp4wn> Linux cannot (some people are dead with claims on Linux)
[23:06] <webjames> i think you don't need 100% of the copyright holders, just around 95% with the 5% not objecting.
[23:07] <h3sp4wn> No way you can do stuff like that
[23:07] <webjames> aparently thats how mozilla was able to relicence in 2003
[23:08] <h3sp4wn> If you contribute to firefox who keeps the copyrights ? (I would presume mozilla gets them)
[23:08] <webjames> i don't know i think it was split?
[23:09] <h3sp4wn> I don't know either (a binary only firefox would be fine for me anyway)
[23:09] <webjames> i like the open source, look at all the add-ons that have been created
[23:09] <RAOF> h3sp4wn: Unless they've got a policy whereby you need to assign copyright to mozilla to contribute (like GNU have), you'd retain the copyright.
[23:10] <h3sp4wn> RAOF: I was presuming they did (Sun has the same for Openoffice afaik)
[23:10] <webjames> what they should do it devs should licence to gpl, and future versions
[23:13] <webjames> have a read of this: http://fsfe.org/en/fellows/ciaran/ciaran_s_free_software_notes/about_gplv3_can_the_linux_kernel_relicense
[23:13] <webjames> okay, it's been interesting chatting with you h3sp4wn and RAOF, see you around. night.
[23:14] <h3sp4wn> RAOF: Is there a mailing list for scientific software in universe ?
[23:14] <h3sp4wn> octave:1> doc
[23:14] <h3sp4wn> info: /usr/share/info/octave2.9.info: No such file or directory
[23:15] <h3sp4wn> I want to sort out some of this sort of thing (prior to hardy getting out) trying to use alot of this stuff is a pita (and fixing it for gutsy might be good for me but its wasted effort probably)