/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/11/30/#ubuntu-doc.txt

oldmanstanwho be in charge of translations? anybody?01:15
somerville32oldmanstan, Ogra was at one point01:35
somerville32oldmanstan, ping02:05
btriggHi There.  I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this issue: http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=5402:23
btriggAn idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power and danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root commands to be run.02:23
btriggI was referred here from #ubuntu-motu02:23
btriggIs this the place to find a champion for this idea?02:24
somerville32btrigg, We already discuss the issue in the shipped documentation02:25
oldmanstanbtrigg: your goal is to make the issue real obvious to new ppl?02:25
btriggUnderstood.  But our thought is that RTFM isn't really that user-friendly.02:26
btriggYes.02:26
somerville32Unfortunately, there is no way to fully protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it02:26
btriggDocs are great if you are looking for something.  If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that effective.02:26
somerville32btrigg, You might want to look for the people looking on the Welcome centre specification02:27
btriggAgreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.02:27
somerville32s/looking/working02:27
btriggOk, thanks, I appreciate that.02:28
btriggThe idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck.  But we can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them hang themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.02:30
somerville32Sadly, I think most people would close to pop-up anyhow or be scarred away02:31
somerville32First thing they see when their new OS boots up:02:31
somerville32"DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"02:31
btrigg:-)02:31
btriggWell...not like that exactly..02:32
btriggMore like...02:32
btrigg"As with any OS, there are dangers with installing software from unknown sources"02:32
btriggEtc.02:32
btriggPlease enter the root password to confirm you've read this and continue installing.02:33
btriggThat kind of thing.02:33
somerville32lol02:33
somerville32We tell them not to randomly enter their root password and then we get them to do it :P02:33
btrigglol02:33
btriggWell...this is still within the comfy confines of their own system.02:33
btriggAnd we'd give them an out for that.02:34
btriggHave them enter the password and then choose to continue or abort.02:34
btriggEither way, the tutorial would be gone for good going forward.02:34
btriggYou see where we're going with this, though, right?02:36
btriggSomewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".02:36
somerville32"You attempted to close this window. Allow or deny?"02:37
btriggRight.  The "You're an idiot.  We know better" Extreme.02:37
btriggAnd the RTFM extreme on the other end.02:38
btriggSomewhere between those two.02:38
btriggWe're looking at the: "It's your system.  Here's how to use it wisely" approach.02:39
btriggIf we came up with the text for it to be reviewed would that help?02:40
somerville32Well, we can include it in the documentation02:40
somerville32:)02:41
btriggGreat, thanks!02:41
kgoetzi dont think more popups will go down well with upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would be better imo02:41
btriggkgoetz: There's an idea02:41
btriggLike maybe context-sensitive warnings?02:42
btriggi.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type of stuff?02:42
somerville32lol02:42
btriggWhat?  Why is that funny?02:43
kgoetzdeja vu02:43
kgoetzjust reading this http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)02:43
btriggAh...yes.02:43
kgoetz"rm -rf /"02:43
kgoetz*grin*02:43
btriggThat's what started this whole discussion in our LoCo.02:44
btriggBut you can see why we could be shooting ourselves in the foot with this, yes?02:44
btriggWe may not have the virus issue, but social engineering...that affects all of us.02:44
somerville32btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?02:45
oldmanstanbtrigg: i agree02:45
btriggsomerville32: lol02:45
kgoetzproblem is people get used to clicking 'close', and the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do anything else02:45
btrigg"Allow or Deny"02:45
kgoetzwindows's i've used havent *heh*02:45
oldmanstanthe key is people have to realize that they need to read at least a little about their new os02:45
oldmanstanwhat about doing a screencast on "the dangers of sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids02:46
btriggoldmanstan: Agreed.  But really..who reads docs?02:46
oldmanstanyeah, that's why a screencast might be good02:46
btriggoldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.02:46
oldmanstanthen throw it in people's desktops by default with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha02:47
btriggWe are just looking to give some education.  Maybe (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.02:47
btrigglol.  Yes.  Great idea, though!02:47
oldmanstanyeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a tough task though02:47
btriggAnd...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness of Ubuntu.02:47
btriggGreat.  Thanks.02:48
oldmanstanindeed02:48
* kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist02:48
btriggYes.  It is tough.  But I think it's the right thing to do.02:48
oldmanstanadd it to the lovely nelson mandela video02:48
kgoetzfor thos who can download vidoe of course02:48
btriggIt is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has the chance to become an "I told you so" topic.02:48
oldmanstanwe could get it preinstalled with the distro possibly02:49
btriggYes.  That's the idea.02:49
btriggThe "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.02:49
oldmanstanit's a balancing act between scaring the crap outta people and informing them02:49
btriggYes.02:49
btriggWindows just assumes they are stupid.02:49
btriggWe are not that.02:49
btriggThat's why people like Macs and Linux.  Freedom.02:50
kgoetzmacs for freedom? bs.02:50
btriggBut with freedom come responsibility.  And if someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them.  You can find more here...", then they can be scarred for like.02:50
kgoetzbut thats an aside02:50
btriggYes.  But that's a reason whether we like/believe it or not.02:51
kgoetzi'll point out that video is huge, and the discs are squeezed for space as is02:51
btriggFlash video?  Should be smaller?02:51
oldmanstanor dump the mandela video02:51
btriggOr a Presentation file?02:52
oldmanstanogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half02:52
kgoetzso 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.02:53
oldmanstanlike i said, dump the mandela video02:53
* kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd. perhaps that carp can go02:53
btrigglol02:53
oldmanstanand make it a minute and a half, kind of a "don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero02:54
oldmanstanhaha02:54
oldmanstaneven if it wasn't on the cd though, it could still be featured prominantly02:54
kgoetzi still think the improving dialges holds merit02:54
kgoetz*sp (again :$)02:54
oldmanstani think more people will watch a video than will read a document02:54
btriggYes.  Like a link to a hosted video on the net somewhere?02:54
kgoetzdepends where said person is located02:54
oldmanstanyeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but it would be something02:55
btriggSubtitles02:55
kgoetz(i already have that issue with ubuntu install 'extras')02:55
oldmanstanchanging the dialogs is definitely a thing to bug people about too though02:55
btriggAgreed.02:55
oldmanstana video could be made easily with minimal bureaucracy though02:56
btriggSo how do we get this started on our end?  Write the text?02:56
oldmanstani would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not sure if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in #ubuntu-uk and he's in charge of it02:56
kgoetzbtrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal02:56
btriggI know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela impersonation...he could read it.  And then we could keep the Mandela aspect and still give the safety warning.  :-)02:56
oldmanstanlol02:57
kgoetzcall it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)02:57
btriggJust kidding about that.  Sorry.02:57
btriggkgoetz:  Ok, thanks much again!02:57
oldmanstankgoetz: good point, people love "specs"02:57
kgoetzoldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)02:57
oldmanstanfer sure02:57
btriggMake it a business case type spec?  More formal = more consideration?02:58
oldmanstanall about the launchpad02:58
kgoetzyep.02:58
somerville32omg, lmao02:58
* somerville32 swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds02:58
btrigg:-)02:58
btriggOk...so I'm a noob dork.02:58
oldmanstanhonestly i would  informally approach a couple ppl first, and then work on formalizing it02:58
btriggBut why smack me?02:58
oldmanstanbut that's how i like doin stuff02:59
btriggOk.  And does that work?02:59
btriggbrb...bedtime for the nipper.  :-)02:59
kgoetz:)03:01
* kgoetz hands over invoice to employer03:01
btriggback03:02
btrigglol03:02
btriggOk.  Well thank you everyone for the input, ideas, and advice.  I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from there.03:03
oldmanstanbtrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts03:03
kgoetz:) good luck with it03:03
oldmanstanif you decide to go that route03:03
oldmanstangood luck!03:03
btriggThanks much again!03:04
btriggHi FunnyLookinHat03:04
FunnyLookinHathowdy03:04
btriggYou missed all the good stuff.  :-)03:05
btriggFolks here are awesome.03:05
oldmanstanwe are, you should get involved in the doc-team btrigg03:06
oldmanstanthen we could have parties like this all the time! hehehe </plug>03:07
kgoetzhehe. talk about shameless :D03:07
btrigglol03:08
oldmanstanthat's how a roll03:09
btriggI'm in my masters program and time is limited.  What kind of time commitment would we be talking here?03:09
oldmanstannot much, i'm doing a masters too and i'm pretty ok (admittedly mine isn't terribly time-consuming)03:09
kgoetzi'm not doign masters and i have no time :D03:10
btriggkgoetz: lol03:10
kgoetz;)03:10
oldmanstanyou basically just edit docbook files (like html on crack)03:10
btriggCool.  Ok.  Is there a website where I can learn more?03:11
btriggGet an idea of what it's all about, etc?03:11
oldmanstanhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam03:11
kgoetzbeat me :|03:11
oldmanstan:) i was hurrying cuz i knew you'd be getting it too03:12
kgoetz:P hey, good use of competition03:12
oldmanstanexactly03:12
btrigglol03:12
btriggExcellent, thanks much!03:13
btriggAnd if I can swing it, then what?  Come back here and say, "Lay it on me" or what?03:13
oldmanstanwell hit up https://lists.ubuntu.com03:13
oldmanstanand sign up for the ubuntu-doc list03:14
oldmanstanactually here it is doc03:14
oldmanstanhttp://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc03:14
oldmanstanthere we go03:14
btriggOk, cool, thanks.03:15
oldmanstanand then take a look around at the docs and see what kinds of things you'd like to work on03:15
oldmanstanthen let everyone know by emailing the list and people either there or here will help you out in getting started03:15
btriggSweet.  Sounds good.03:15
kgoetzand more people with ideas to smack down can only be good :D03:15
btrigglol03:15
kgoetzer, discuss :P03:15
btriggYes.03:15
oldmanstanhaha03:15
oldmanstanif you are at all interested in helping with docs for xubuntu (dunno which distro you use) we are looking for people to help out03:16
oldmanstanyou don't have to actually use a distro to write docs for it, but it helps03:16
btriggOk.  I run Ubuntu and have a laptop and backup machine on Kubuntu.03:16
btriggUnderstood.03:16
kgoetzoldmanstan: i'm thinking about 'idot testing' the docs for kubuntu, so i'im happy to do xubuntu too :)03:17
btriggI could pop Xubuntu on the laptop and run all three.03:17
oldmanstango for it kgoetz we can use all the help we can get03:17
kgoetzKamping_Kaiser: ^^ start downloading :)03:18
oldmanstanbtrigg: well have a look around the docs and see what you'd like to do, it's not urgent or anything03:18
oldmanstanthere's a docbook tutorial on the wiki also03:18
btriggOk oldmanstan.  Will do.03:18
oldmanstanwelcome aboard!03:19
btriggExcellent.  I will peruse that and let you know.  :-)03:19
btriggThanks!03:19
oldmanstanno prob03:19
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sommerhey all, is the development branch of the docs built and served on the web somewhere?  in a draft status or something?17:01
somerville32docs.ubuntu.com ?17:03
sommersomerville32: doesn't look updated17:04
somerville32doc.ubuntu.com ?17:05
sommersomerville32: ya, doc.ubuntu.com17:05
sommerhttp://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/advanced-topics/C/index.html > Installing Server Applications17:06
sommerstill points to a ghelp link17:06
sommerwhich I think was an issue with the old Server Guide... before it was merged into the generic folder17:06
sommerI could be wrong though17:06
somerville32The build is out of date most likely17:11
somerville32sommer, file a bug SVP17:11
sommerSVP?17:12
somerville32please17:12
sommershould the bug be filed agains the web site or doc team?17:12
sommerI guess I can file it against the web site and subscibe the doc team17:14
somerville32sommer, doc-team17:22
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