[01:15] <oldmanstan> who be in charge of translations? anybody?
[01:35] <somerville32> oldmanstan, Ogra was at one point
[02:05] <somerville32> oldmanstan, ping
[02:23] <btrigg> Hi There.  I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this issue: http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
[02:23] <btrigg> An idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power and danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root commands to be run.
[02:23] <btrigg> I was referred here from #ubuntu-motu
[02:24] <btrigg> Is this the place to find a champion for this idea?
[02:25] <somerville32> btrigg, We already discuss the issue in the shipped documentation
[02:25] <oldmanstan> btrigg: your goal is to make the issue real obvious to new ppl?
[02:26] <btrigg> Understood.  But our thought is that RTFM isn't really that user-friendly.
[02:26] <btrigg> Yes.
[02:26] <somerville32> Unfortunately, there is no way to fully protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it
[02:26] <btrigg> Docs are great if you are looking for something.  If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that effective.
[02:27] <somerville32> btrigg, You might want to look for the people looking on the Welcome centre specification
[02:27] <btrigg> Agreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.
[02:27] <somerville32> s/looking/working
[02:28] <btrigg> Ok, thanks, I appreciate that.
[02:30] <btrigg> The idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck.  But we can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them hang themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.
[02:31] <somerville32> Sadly, I think most people would close to pop-up anyhow or be scarred away
[02:31] <somerville32> First thing they see when their new OS boots up:
[02:31] <somerville32> "DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"
[02:31] <btrigg> :-)
[02:32] <btrigg> Well...not like that exactly..
[02:32] <btrigg> More like...
[02:32] <btrigg> "As with any OS, there are dangers with installing software from unknown sources"
[02:32] <btrigg> Etc.
[02:33] <btrigg> Please enter the root password to confirm you've read this and continue installing.
[02:33] <btrigg> That kind of thing.
[02:33] <somerville32> lol
[02:33] <somerville32> We tell them not to randomly enter their root password and then we get them to do it :P
[02:33] <btrigg> lol
[02:33] <btrigg> Well...this is still within the comfy confines of their own system.
[02:34] <btrigg> And we'd give them an out for that.
[02:34] <btrigg> Have them enter the password and then choose to continue or abort.
[02:34] <btrigg> Either way, the tutorial would be gone for good going forward.
[02:36] <btrigg> You see where we're going with this, though, right?
[02:36] <btrigg> Somewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".
[02:37] <somerville32> "You attempted to close this window. Allow or deny?"
[02:37] <btrigg> Right.  The "You're an idiot.  We know better" Extreme.
[02:38] <btrigg> And the RTFM extreme on the other end.
[02:38] <btrigg> Somewhere between those two.
[02:39] <btrigg> We're looking at the: "It's your system.  Here's how to use it wisely" approach.
[02:40] <btrigg> If we came up with the text for it to be reviewed would that help?
[02:40] <somerville32> Well, we can include it in the documentation
[02:41] <somerville32> :)
[02:41] <btrigg> Great, thanks!
[02:41] <kgoetz> i dont think more popups will go down well with upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would be better imo
[02:41] <btrigg> kgoetz: There's an idea
[02:42] <btrigg> Like maybe context-sensitive warnings?
[02:42] <btrigg> i.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type of stuff?
[02:42] <somerville32> lol
[02:43] <btrigg> What?  Why is that funny?
[02:43] <kgoetz> deja vu
[02:43] <kgoetz> just reading this http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)
[02:43] <btrigg> Ah...yes.
[02:43] <kgoetz> "rm -rf /"
[02:43] <kgoetz> *grin*
[02:44] <btrigg> That's what started this whole discussion in our LoCo.
[02:44] <btrigg> But you can see why we could be shooting ourselves in the foot with this, yes?
[02:44] <btrigg> We may not have the virus issue, but social engineering...that affects all of us.
[02:45] <somerville32> btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?
[02:45] <oldmanstan> btrigg: i agree
[02:45] <btrigg> somerville32: lol
[02:45] <kgoetz> problem is people get used to clicking 'close', and the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do anything else
[02:45] <btrigg> "Allow or Deny"
[02:45] <kgoetz> windows's i've used havent *heh*
[02:45] <oldmanstan> the key is people have to realize that they need to read at least a little about their new os
[02:46] <oldmanstan> what about doing a screencast on "the dangers of sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids
[02:46] <btrigg> oldmanstan: Agreed.  But really..who reads docs?
[02:46] <oldmanstan> yeah, that's why a screencast might be good
[02:46] <btrigg> oldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.
[02:47] <oldmanstan> then throw it in people's desktops by default with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha
[02:47] <btrigg> We are just looking to give some education.  Maybe (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.
[02:47] <btrigg> lol.  Yes.  Great idea, though!
[02:47] <oldmanstan> yeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a tough task though
[02:47] <btrigg> And...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness of Ubuntu.
[02:48] <btrigg> Great.  Thanks.
[02:48] <oldmanstan> indeed
[02:48]  * kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist
[02:48] <btrigg> Yes.  It is tough.  But I think it's the right thing to do.
[02:48] <oldmanstan> add it to the lovely nelson mandela video
[02:48] <kgoetz> for thos who can download vidoe of course
[02:48] <btrigg> It is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has the chance to become an "I told you so" topic.
[02:49] <oldmanstan> we could get it preinstalled with the distro possibly
[02:49] <btrigg> Yes.  That's the idea.
[02:49] <btrigg> The "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.
[02:49] <oldmanstan> it's a balancing act between scaring the crap outta people and informing them
[02:49] <btrigg> Yes.
[02:49] <btrigg> Windows just assumes they are stupid.
[02:49] <btrigg> We are not that.
[02:50] <btrigg> That's why people like Macs and Linux.  Freedom.
[02:50] <kgoetz> macs for freedom? bs.
[02:50] <btrigg> But with freedom come responsibility.  And if someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them.  You can find more here...", then they can be scarred for like.
[02:50] <kgoetz> but thats an aside
[02:51] <btrigg> Yes.  But that's a reason whether we like/believe it or not.
[02:51] <kgoetz> i'll point out that video is huge, and the discs are squeezed for space as is
[02:51] <btrigg> Flash video?  Should be smaller?
[02:51] <oldmanstan> or dump the mandela video
[02:52] <btrigg> Or a Presentation file?
[02:52] <oldmanstan> ogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half
[02:53] <kgoetz> so 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.
[02:53] <oldmanstan> like i said, dump the mandela video
[02:53]  * kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd. perhaps that carp can go
[02:53] <btrigg> lol
[02:54] <oldmanstan> and make it a minute and a half, kind of a "don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero
[02:54] <oldmanstan> haha
[02:54] <oldmanstan> even if it wasn't on the cd though, it could still be featured prominantly
[02:54] <kgoetz> i still think the improving dialges holds merit
[02:54] <kgoetz> *sp (again :$)
[02:54] <oldmanstan> i think more people will watch a video than will read a document
[02:54] <btrigg> Yes.  Like a link to a hosted video on the net somewhere?
[02:54] <kgoetz> depends where said person is located
[02:55] <oldmanstan> yeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but it would be something
[02:55] <btrigg> Subtitles
[02:55] <kgoetz> (i already have that issue with ubuntu install 'extras')
[02:55] <oldmanstan> changing the dialogs is definitely a thing to bug people about too though
[02:55] <btrigg> Agreed.
[02:56] <oldmanstan> a video could be made easily with minimal bureaucracy though
[02:56] <btrigg> So how do we get this started on our end?  Write the text?
[02:56] <oldmanstan> i would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not sure if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in #ubuntu-uk and he's in charge of it
[02:56] <kgoetz> btrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal
[02:56] <btrigg> I know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela impersonation...he could read it.  And then we could keep the Mandela aspect and still give the safety warning.  :-)
[02:57] <oldmanstan> lol
[02:57] <kgoetz> call it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)
[02:57] <btrigg> Just kidding about that.  Sorry.
[02:57] <btrigg> kgoetz:  Ok, thanks much again!
[02:57] <oldmanstan> kgoetz: good point, people love "specs"
[02:57] <kgoetz> oldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)
[02:57] <oldmanstan> fer sure
[02:58] <btrigg> Make it a business case type spec?  More formal = more consideration?
[02:58] <oldmanstan> all about the launchpad
[02:58] <kgoetz> yep.
[02:58] <somerville32> omg, lmao
[02:58]  * somerville32 swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds
[02:58] <btrigg> :-)
[02:58] <btrigg> Ok...so I'm a noob dork.
[02:58] <oldmanstan> honestly i would  informally approach a couple ppl first, and then work on formalizing it
[02:58] <btrigg> But why smack me?
[02:59] <oldmanstan> but that's how i like doin stuff
[02:59] <btrigg> Ok.  And does that work?
[02:59] <btrigg> brb...bedtime for the nipper.  :-)
[03:01] <kgoetz> :)
[03:01]  * kgoetz hands over invoice to employer
[03:02] <btrigg> back
[03:02] <btrigg> lol
[03:03] <btrigg> Ok.  Well thank you everyone for the input, ideas, and advice.  I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from there.
[03:03] <oldmanstan> btrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts
[03:03] <kgoetz> :) good luck with it
[03:03] <oldmanstan> if you decide to go that route
[03:03] <oldmanstan> good luck!
[03:04] <btrigg> Thanks much again!
[03:04] <btrigg> Hi FunnyLookinHat
[03:04] <FunnyLookinHat> howdy
[03:05] <btrigg> You missed all the good stuff.  :-)
[03:05] <btrigg> Folks here are awesome.
[03:06] <oldmanstan> we are, you should get involved in the doc-team btrigg
[03:07] <oldmanstan> then we could have parties like this all the time! hehehe </plug>
[03:07] <kgoetz> hehe. talk about shameless :D
[03:08] <btrigg> lol
[03:09] <oldmanstan> that's how a roll
[03:09] <btrigg> I'm in my masters program and time is limited.  What kind of time commitment would we be talking here?
[03:09] <oldmanstan> not much, i'm doing a masters too and i'm pretty ok (admittedly mine isn't terribly time-consuming)
[03:10] <kgoetz> i'm not doign masters and i have no time :D
[03:10] <btrigg> kgoetz: lol
[03:10] <kgoetz> ;)
[03:10] <oldmanstan> you basically just edit docbook files (like html on crack)
[03:11] <btrigg> Cool.  Ok.  Is there a website where I can learn more?
[03:11] <btrigg> Get an idea of what it's all about, etc?
[03:11] <oldmanstan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[03:11] <kgoetz> beat me :|
[03:12] <oldmanstan> :) i was hurrying cuz i knew you'd be getting it too
[03:12] <kgoetz> :P hey, good use of competition
[03:12] <oldmanstan> exactly
[03:12] <btrigg> lol
[03:13] <btrigg> Excellent, thanks much!
[03:13] <btrigg> And if I can swing it, then what?  Come back here and say, "Lay it on me" or what?
[03:13] <oldmanstan> well hit up https://lists.ubuntu.com
[03:14] <oldmanstan> and sign up for the ubuntu-doc list
[03:14] <oldmanstan> actually here it is doc
[03:14] <oldmanstan> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[03:14] <oldmanstan> there we go
[03:15] <btrigg> Ok, cool, thanks.
[03:15] <oldmanstan> and then take a look around at the docs and see what kinds of things you'd like to work on
[03:15] <oldmanstan> then let everyone know by emailing the list and people either there or here will help you out in getting started
[03:15] <btrigg> Sweet.  Sounds good.
[03:15] <kgoetz> and more people with ideas to smack down can only be good :D
[03:15] <btrigg> lol
[03:15] <kgoetz> er, discuss :P
[03:15] <btrigg> Yes.
[03:15] <oldmanstan> haha
[03:16] <oldmanstan> if you are at all interested in helping with docs for xubuntu (dunno which distro you use) we are looking for people to help out
[03:16] <oldmanstan> you don't have to actually use a distro to write docs for it, but it helps
[03:16] <btrigg> Ok.  I run Ubuntu and have a laptop and backup machine on Kubuntu.
[03:16] <btrigg> Understood.
[03:17] <kgoetz> oldmanstan: i'm thinking about 'idot testing' the docs for kubuntu, so i'im happy to do xubuntu too :)
[03:17] <btrigg> I could pop Xubuntu on the laptop and run all three.
[03:17] <oldmanstan> go for it kgoetz we can use all the help we can get
[03:18] <kgoetz> Kamping_Kaiser: ^^ start downloading :)
[03:18] <oldmanstan> btrigg: well have a look around the docs and see what you'd like to do, it's not urgent or anything
[03:18] <oldmanstan> there's a docbook tutorial on the wiki also
[03:18] <btrigg> Ok oldmanstan.  Will do.
[03:19] <oldmanstan> welcome aboard!
[03:19] <btrigg> Excellent.  I will peruse that and let you know.  :-)
[03:19] <btrigg> Thanks!
[03:19] <oldmanstan> no prob
[07:11] <werewolf1985> hi
[17:01] <sommer> hey all, is the development branch of the docs built and served on the web somewhere?  in a draft status or something?
[17:03] <somerville32> docs.ubuntu.com ?
[17:04] <sommer> somerville32: doesn't look updated
[17:05] <somerville32> doc.ubuntu.com ?
[17:05] <sommer> somerville32: ya, doc.ubuntu.com
[17:06] <sommer> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/advanced-topics/C/index.html > Installing Server Applications
[17:06] <sommer> still points to a ghelp link
[17:06] <sommer> which I think was an issue with the old Server Guide... before it was merged into the generic folder
[17:06] <sommer> I could be wrong though
[17:11] <somerville32> The build is out of date most likely
[17:11] <somerville32> sommer, file a bug SVP
[17:12] <sommer> SVP?
[17:12] <somerville32> please
[17:12] <sommer> should the bug be filed agains the web site or doc team?
[17:14] <sommer> I guess I can file it against the web site and subscibe the doc team
[17:22] <somerville32> sommer, doc-team