[01:52] <Danny> hey
[16:23] <andreasn> artwork meeting in 2,5 hours, right?
[16:29] <kwwii> andreasn: right
[16:31] <andreasn> great, always tricky with UTC time-things, even though I noticed there was a link on the wiki page :)
[16:32] <kwwii> yeah, you never feel quite safe, eh?
[16:36] <andreasn> exactly :)
[16:50] <thorwil> kwwii: regarding tricky utc, wasn't it 3.5 hours from the point of asking?
[16:52] <thorwil> andreasn: today i learned of a nice command you can use in #ubuntu-meeting:" @schedule city-in-your-time-zone"
[16:53] <andreasn> thorwil: oh, sweet
[17:18] <kwwii> thorwil: it is 3.8 where I am at but probably 3.5 in your country :p
[17:19]  * _MMA_ thinks everyone should just have 2 clocks in their panel with one set to UTC and be done with it.
[17:19] <kwwii> officially, as of now, it is in 1:40min
[17:20] <_MMA_> Yep
[17:20] <thorwil> kwwii: heh, and here i thought it would be the same 'distance' for everyone
[17:21] <kwwii> well, for some it is in their head and for others in it only in a webpage
[17:21] <kwwii> so unless your head is *really* close to your monitor....
[17:21] <_MMA_> kwwii: I think Mark should really be in this meeting. Even if you still have that meeting in a couple of days. So at least he could then hear _some_ of the ideas from the people who bother to show.
[17:21] <thorwil> if that intlclock applet thing has some kind of utc mark / support?
[17:22] <kwwii> _MMA_: I think he should be in the next one ;-)
[17:22] <_MMA_> thorwil: Other it actually has no UTS support atm. :(
[17:22] <_MMA_> gah
[17:22] <_MMA_> Strike out that "Other"
[17:23] <thorwil> got it even with
[17:23] <thorwil> :)
[17:23] <thorwil> _MMA_: if that was my mark, i wouldn't want to expose him to the unfiltered noise ;)
[17:24] <_MMA_> jacstro said it will be merged with the current clock for GNOME 2.22.
[17:24] <andreasn> _MMA_:_ time-zone thingy in gnome 2.22 will probably take care of that
[17:24] <_MMA_> thorwil: Naa.. Its gonna be a ghost town in there. All the normal heads. Wont be alot of noise.
[17:25] <andreasn> ah, yes, intclock, that's the name
[17:25] <thorwil> _MMA_: hmm ... right, it isn't the mailing list :)
[17:29] <troy_s> thorwil: He used to read the mailing list.  That said, he is far too busy these days to be involved with much of anything.
[18:04] <deezid_> hi
[18:04] <deezid_> am I too late?
[18:05] <deezid_> what happened here before? :D
[18:07] <deezid_> art.ubuntu.com seems to be down, did anything happen at this meeting?
[18:07]  * troy_s falls over with a thud.
[18:08] <derQ> iirc it's 19utc so one hour to go
[18:10] <deezid_> I thought it's already UTC+1 (MEZ)?
[18:11] <thorwil> i'll be gone, hunting food. but in the meantime, you might enjoy: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/ubuntu-login-screen/
[18:14] <deezid_> I like the idea of these thumbnails
[18:15] <deezid_> but it's too dark and brownish on my eyes
[18:15] <deezid_> ah ok, read it
[18:17] <deezid_> And one thing I would like to change, is to remove the top bar in ubuntu :)
[18:18] <deezid_> Since widescreen lcds are becoming much more popular, we should use another solution
[18:19] <deezid_> maybe something  like gnome-main-menu, vertical bars, etc...
[18:20] <deezid_> so I don't think we should introduce a top par in gdm
[18:20] <deezid_> have you seen Fedora 8s' GDM. looks great I think
[18:21] <troy_s> looks like shite.
[18:21] <troy_s> fedora 8 is the worst case of regression that i have seen in many many many years.
[18:22] <deezid_> mhh
[18:23] <troy_s> deezid_: Diana did some _amazing_ work with Fedora up to and including 7.  Since her departure, Fedora has demonstrated the complete inability to draw a reasonable progression out of her legacy.
[18:23] <deezid_> do you have a link to her work? I have not seen it yet...
[18:25] <troy_s> deezid_: Fedora 5/6/7
[18:25] <troy_s> deezid_: Let me find the 7 work
[18:25] <deezid_> ah ok
[18:25] <deezid_> http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ ?
[18:26] <troy_s> weird her blog appears to have gone.
[18:26] <troy_s> yes
[18:27] <troy_s> but her blog had a better evolutionary display of the work
[18:27] <troy_s> her progression with Fedora was nothing short of remarkable, and I imagine she was met with the same degree of resistance from 'those that know better'
[18:28] <troy_s> that said, the management at Fedora should have shut up and given her the keys to the car to see what she would have done with it.
[18:29] <troy_s> as a simple test, look what happens when you yank out any degree of motif / communication and wrap it up with dull monotonous presentation -- side by side F7 with F8
[18:30] <troy_s> deezid_: http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=60
[18:34] <deezid_> much more colorful compared to F8. F8 looks boring compared to F7
[18:34] <deezid_> mhh
[18:35] <troy_s> deezid_: ;)
[18:35] <troy_s> deezid_: The power of a little colour contrast
[18:35] <deezid_> ubuntu needs more contrast, too
[18:35] <troy_s> deezid_: You can see how, coupled with the overarching motif (the balloon) and the general communication (lofty / airy / floaty) an actual palette of color goes a _long_ way.
[18:36] <deezid_> I like the idea of orange and black combined
[18:36] <deezid_> hope that it won't get too dark
[18:36] <troy_s> deezid_: Completely 100% agree, and it has been noted.  Unfortunately, I stated that god knows how long ago and kwwii is still fighting to try and get some degree of contrast.
[18:36] <deezid_> won't become too dark... :D
[18:36] <troy_s> deezid_: The main thing is to try and get a complimentary colour into a desktop.
[18:37] <troy_s> deezid_: If you compare monochromatic palettes (usually color x on black or color x on white) you can see a greater impression made with color x / compliment as the compliment will highlight color x's intensity / feel.
[18:38] <troy_s> deezid_: Given the context of a full blown desktop look, we can see the impact of monotony by looking at the Ubuntu walls of the past -- they are hideous.
[18:39] <deezid_> yes they are
[18:39] <deezid_> we need something new :)
[18:39] <troy_s> deezid_: Compare with say, F7's work and you get the twofold bang out of having a real concept that instills emotion coupled with a rather impressive display of tone through the color variations.
[18:39] <troy_s> deezid_: Not just new.
[18:39] <troy_s> deezid_: New doing the same garbage and idiotic mistakes over and over again is worthless.
[18:39] <deezid_> vista already has it :D
[18:39] <deezid_> lol
[18:40] <troy_s> deezid_:  Vista does their own thing.  That said Vista's default wallpaper (as does Leopard's) do the 'right thing'
[18:40] <deezid_> true
[18:40] <troy_s> deezid_: Vista's garbage plasticy packaging and hideously dated glossy bits are ... yikes.
[18:40] <deezid_> even Apple seems to copy it...
[18:40] <troy_s> deezid_: No.  Apple's design for Leopard is quite clever.
[18:41] <deezid_> it looks a bit spacy
[18:41] <troy_s> deezid_: Their entire presentation is schemed around their 'killer feature' (*sigh* backup)
[18:41] <deezid_> i think
[18:41] <troy_s> deezid_: Of course
[18:41] <deezid_> hehe
[18:41] <troy_s> deezid_: It is space with godrays to sell the time machine
[18:41] <deezid_> nice
[18:41] <deezid_> :D
[18:41] <troy_s> deezid_: Their audio in the visual presentation also uses the motif -- backmasked music etc
[18:41] <troy_s> deezid_: The entire 'space / time machine' motif extends through all of their release packaging.
[18:42] <deezid_> so we need a new motif?
[18:42] <deezid_> no
[18:43] <troy_s> deezid_: What do we need?  I would probably start with 1) A motif for the release (which is a big ball of communication goal wrapped in there) 2) A non monochromatic palette 3) Visual styling that sells 1
[18:43] <deezid_> the ubuntu 'human' motif seems to be a limit..?!
[18:43] <deezid_> ah
[18:43] <troy_s> deezid_: Not at all.  It has _never_ been human.
[18:44] <deezid_> true (mostly brown)
[18:44] <troy_s> deezid_: It has been a bland 'we don't want to make a statement' since the dawn of Ubuntu (with Warty and Hoary actually having signs of life)
[18:44] <troy_s> deezid_: Ignore the colour.
[18:44] <deezid_> a new color palette would be good start of course
[18:44] <troy_s> deezid_: Colour is just an extension of thematic.  In a vacuum, all colours are awful.
[18:45] <deezid_> that's true
[18:45] <troy_s> deezid_: New palette is worthless without the other elements.  They mean nothing.
[18:46] <deezid_> we need a new gtk-theme, metacity, gdm, built on a new wider motif? right?
[18:46] <troy_s> deezid_:  In the end, getting management to be willing to make a statement is about 50% of the task at hand.  The other 50% is preparing for failure.  Hell -- Windows and Apple still make mistakes.  Ubuntu art and design will too.
[18:46] <deezid_> (sry for my bad english)
[18:46] <troy_s> deezid_: Huge task.  It is what kwwii is working towards I believe.  It is a massive task to achieve that.  Possible, but quite large.
[18:47] <deezid_> but it should be done at least
[18:47] <deezid_> ubuntu looks quite boring in these times :(
[18:47] <deezid_> its nice to work with of course... ;)
[18:47] <troy_s> deezid_: Boring is relative.  It certainly leaves a lot to be desired to be welcome in many people's living rooms.
[18:48] <deezid_> so blue is simply outdated :D
[18:48] <deezid_> as the main color
[18:49] <troy_s> deezid_: Well... overly used and the reasoning completely flawed.
[18:49] <deezid_> true
[18:49] <troy_s> deezid_: Although _that_ was said god knows how many times before.  Only now that the big boys move away from it
[18:49] <troy_s> deezid_: Is that our little culture seems to agree.
[18:49] <troy_s> deezid_: We had a few vocal types who tried to keep away from blue.
[18:49] <troy_s> deezid_: For good reason.
[18:49] <deezid_> good to know
[18:50] <troy_s> deezid_: Blue is as bad as getting rid of brown.  Brown is just soooooo pathetically used in Ubuntu with a single tone that it is awful.
[18:50] <deezid_> RIGHT!!!
[18:50] <deezid_> it's to much
[18:50] <troy_s> deezid_: But the colour itself is soooo extremely fresh for design.  It gets slammed because of the useless application of it.
[18:50] <deezid_> (did I understand you?)
[18:51] <deezid_> right
[18:51] <troy_s> deezid_: I am a huge +1 for brown, but not as it is used now.
[18:51] <deezid_> I love brown
[18:51] <deezid_> as I'm already using it in my living room
[18:51] <deezid_> ;)
[18:51] <troy_s> deezid_: Many people do
[18:51] <deezid_> yeah
[18:51] <deezid_> at least here
[18:51] <deezid_> ^^
[18:52] <thorwil> plop
[18:52] <deezid_> hi
[18:53] <lapo_> hi
[18:53] <thorwil> troy_s: i agree. especially on getting a complementary colour in
[18:53] <deezid_> brown<>blue?
[18:53] <thorwil> no
[18:53] <deezid_> ok
[18:54] <thorwil> deezid_: eh, read that wrong
[18:54] <thorwil> deezid_: but colour names just don't do it, anyway ;)
[18:54] <deezid_> hehe
[18:54] <troy_s> deezid_: Yep
[18:54] <troy_s> deezid_: A very popular tone compliment with brown (and it is huge right now) is the lighter blue.
[18:55] <troy_s> deezid_: But a full desktop needs quite a degree of variety
[18:55] <deezid_> that works great
[18:55] <troy_s> deezid_: As it is a huge element and needs as much detail to sell a pattern.
[18:55] <deezid_> ok
[18:55] <troy_s> deezid_: brown / blue works well and is pretty simple compliment theory.
[18:55] <troy_s> deezid_: The other option is to use a triplet triangle.
[18:56] <deezid_> do you mean 3 main colours?
[18:56] <kwwii> *meeting in 5 min in #ubuntu-meeting*
[18:57] <deezid_> a bright blue could look refreshing combined with brown
[18:57] <deezid_> orange works also works great with a bright blue
[18:59] <troy_s> deezid_: orange / brown are more or less sitting in the same neighborhood -- so blue (differing values) works with both -- a simple compliment.
[18:59] <thorwil> kwwii: may i remind you of turning that logging facility on, this time? :)
[19:00] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah
[19:00] <kwwii> meeting now, be there or be square
[20:07] <zazaza123> did i just miss the team meeting?
[20:07] <zazaza123> i know that my time is off utc by 1hr, not sure which way
[20:07] <andreasn> zazaza123: we're in the middle of it, #ubuntu-meeting
[20:08] <zazaza123> thanks
[20:23] <deezid_> example? :D
[20:25] <thorwil> nothlit: yaya. i'm not a fan of gloss all over the place. i'm just surprised to have backlit glass combined with low gloss as concept
[20:26] <deezid_> what is backlit glass?
[20:26] <deezid_> (pretty bad english here) :D
[20:27] <thorwil> deezid_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign, below Concepts
[20:27] <deezid_> thx
[20:27] <thorwil> deezid_: well, it actually says glass being lit from below
[20:28] <kwwii> hrm, something like this perhaps.... http://sinecera.de/theme_idea3a.png
[20:28] <kwwii> or http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png
[20:28] <deezid_> ah ok
[20:29] <troy_s> and by 'gloss' we are talking that bloody nasty curved white gradient (which is a dimestore variant of the more well executed and complex versions with more than a simple grad)
[20:29] <deezid_> bablefished it :)
[20:29] <troy_s> wet floors and gloss... yikes.
[20:31] <thorwil> i'm speechless
[20:31] <kwwii> ?
[20:36] <thorwil> lets just say that http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png is very harsh. i wouldn't stand that 1 minute on my desktop
[20:37] <kwwii> lol, it is just a mockup
[20:38] <luisbg> thorwil, depends on how much you use your icons
[20:38] <luisbg> in ubuntu studio we are getting rid of desktop icons
[20:38] <nothlit> the actual ubuntu mobile is significantly different?
[20:40] <thorwil> luisbg: it offers way more contrast than my eyes like. but heck, i rarely see much of my desktop, having a few large windows on every workspace :)
[20:40] <luisbg> it's mobile...
[20:40] <luisbg> use case = looked at with shitty screens in pure daylight
[20:40] <luisbg> contrast _is_ needed
[20:41] <thorwil> oh, i was taking it as example for a possible direction for hardy
[20:42] <luisbg> thorwil, ok
[20:43] <thorwil> these eyes are tired, good night! :)
[20:43] <luisbg> night
[20:44] <deezid_> have to go out, too
[20:44] <deezid_> bye
[21:14] <hon> is the meeting over?
[21:15] <kwwii> yes
[21:15] <kwwii> 1 1/4 hour ago
[21:18]  * hon should remember the time for next meeting ...
[21:18] <hon> Do you keep logs?
[21:18] <kwwii> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/01/%23ubuntu-artwork.html
[21:18] <hon> thanks
[21:18] <kwwii> np
[21:46] <troy_s> did i miss anything exciting?
[21:46] <troy_s> lol
[22:52] <kwwii> we decided to make the interface pink and teal