[01:08] <Zelut> if there is anyone lurking in here for the us teams bug education event we're going to be in #ubuntu-us. my apologies.
[03:19] <Dev_noob> join #ubuntu-us
[03:20] <Dev_noob> oops
[03:21] <Palintheus> heh
[04:17] <Dev_noob>  Fedex and UPS should have trebuchet shipping options
[08:51] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[08:51] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
[09:32] <Hattory> @now rome
[09:32] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Rome: December 01 2007, 10:32:47 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 1 hour 27 minutes
[10:09] <txwikinger> @schedule London
[10:09] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 Dec 11:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting
[10:14] <thorwil> @schedule Berlin
[10:14] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
[10:54] <kwwii> Riddell: I have to pick my wife and son up in about 30min, so I'll miss at least part of the the meeting
[10:55] <Riddell> ok
[10:55]  * Hobbsee waves
[10:55] <_StefanS_> hi there
[10:56]  * stdin eats toast
[10:56] <_StefanS_> did I make the meeting ? :)
[10:56] <stdin> it'll start in a couple mins
[10:56] <allee> _StefanS_: of course
[10:56] <jxxt> four minutes early I believe
[10:57] <dthacker> good localtime all
[10:57]  * dthacker wishes the coffee pot would drip faster
[10:57] <ardchoille> lol
[10:57]  * imbrandon yawns
[10:58] <ardchoille> imbrandon: Never got to say this before, but thank you for the mirror :)
[10:58] <imbrandon> ardchoille: np, not sure which mirror you speak of but yw ( i have lots of mirrors ) :)
[10:59] <ardchoille> imbrandon: Seveas
[10:59] <ardchoille> I used it for a while in Edgy and Feisty
[10:59] <imbrandon> ahh okies :) ( i also run mirror.imbrandon.com full ubuntu mirror :P )
[10:59] <ardchoille> Oh, didn't realise that
[11:00] <Riddell> Good Morning Friends
[11:00] <stdin> mornin' :)
[11:00] <_StefanS_> morning
[11:00] <kwwii> Riddell: hey man, did you see me earlier message?
[11:00] <Riddell> we have an agenda here https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[11:00] <imbrandon> moins Riddell
[11:00] <Riddell> kwwii: I did
[11:01] <Riddell> shall we start with membership?
[11:01] <Riddell> is CarlosCabezas here?
[11:02] <Riddell> how about RubenDíazAlonso ?
[11:03] <Riddell> then maybe we have TerenceSimpson?
[11:03] <Hobbsee> stdin: is here
[11:03] <stdin> yep
[11:03] <Riddell> stdin: care to give yourself a brief intro
[11:03] <Hobbsee> nixternal: has already voted onlist for this.
[11:03] <stdin> ok
[11:03] <Riddell> and say why you want to be a Kubuntu member
[11:03] <Lure> hello all
[11:04] <stdin> My name is Terence Simpson (please no jokes ;)
[11:04] <stdin> I've been using Kubuntu since 2005 and started getting involved with mostly support
[11:04] <stdin> since then I've tried to learn more about how kubuntu is put together and about things like packaging
[11:05] <stdin> the reason I want to become a kubuntu member is because I think Kubuntu is Kool :) and I'd like to get more involved with Kubuntu
[11:05] <Riddell> good reason :)
[11:05] <Riddell> stdin is the hero of kde 4 rc 1 gutsy backports
[11:05] <Hobbsee> and so he can get access to the kubuntu members PPA
[11:06] <stdin> Hobbsee: yeah, that too :p
[11:06] <Hobbsee> stdin: what would your hope be for ongoing builds of kde4?
[11:06] <Riddell> stdin: plenty more working needing done on those KDE 4 packages, would you want to get more involved with that?
[11:06]  * Lure hugs stdin for kde4 packages
[11:06] <Hobbsee> as in, how often would you hope kubuntu would be providing them, and are you interested in helping out?
[11:06] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, they need to cleanly install :P
[11:07] <stdin> well, I would love to help with the KDE 4 packaging. when I did it last time I found it a bit of a learning curve but quite a good experience
[11:07] <stdin> I have seen more than a few people asking about kde releases in #kubuntu
[11:08] <_StefanS_> +1 for your kde4 packages, work great here :)
[11:08]  * dthacker notes that stdin is a positive presence in #kubuntu and has helped him several times
[11:08] <stdin> and I would like to help to "get it out there"
[11:08] <Lure> stdin: so you compete with Jucato on #kubuntu?
[11:08] <Lure> ;-)
[11:08] <Jucato> nah. he has completely taken over :)
[11:08] <stdin> Lure: nah, he always wins
[11:08] <Riddell> more info on stdin in this thread https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2007-November/002021.html
[11:08] <Jucato> (which is good, means I can relax more :P)
[11:08] <Lure> stdin, Jucato: competition is always good ;-)
[11:09] <Riddell> any more questions?
[11:09] <Tonio_> no questions for me
[11:09] <JohnFlux> has the meeting finished?
[11:09] <waylandbill> FWIW, I've heard that stdin writes good C++, although I've not had a chance to examine it.
[11:09] <jpatrick> JohnFlux: just started
[11:09] <Lure> Riddell: no, I am all fine to give stdin +1
[11:09] <Riddell> +1 from me too
[11:09] <kwwii> +1 as well
[11:09] <Hobbsee> +1
[11:09] <Tonio_> stdin has done 10 times more than what's required for membership so +10 for me
[11:09] <ardchoille> I know stdin from #kubuntu and has been in that chanel as long as I can remember. He is quick to give good advice and is very knowledgable, IMHO. I would like to see stdin become a member.
[11:09] <Tonio_> ;)
[11:09] <Hobbsee> easily done.
[11:10] <Lure> and I am feeling that we will get new motu candidate soon ;-)
[11:10] <Riddell> congratulations stdin
[11:10] <Jucato> \o/
[11:10] <Riddell> anyone else here for membership?
[11:10] <ardchoille> Yay!
[11:10] <Tonio_> welcome in the teams stdin !
[11:10] <dthacker> yay!
[11:10] <imbrandon> congrats stdin
[11:10] <jpatrick> congrats stdin!
[11:10] <Lure> congrats stdin and keep up with great work!
[11:10]  * stdin does a victory dance, then gets dizzy and falls down 
[11:10] <waylandbill> congrats
[11:11] <Jucato> stdin: congrats
[11:11] <jpatrick> hi mhb
[11:11] <stdin> thanks :)
[11:11]  * JohnFlux pipes stdin to stdout
[11:11] <Jucato> heh )
[11:11] <Hobbsee> ...there's another stdin
[11:11] <Jucato> :)
[11:11] <waylandbill> better than to stderr. ;)
[11:11]  * Hobbsee throws that one out
[11:11] <mhb> hello and congratulations to stdin
[11:11] <jpatrick> Well that's it for the member canditates, seeing as the others aren't around
[11:11] <allee> congrats stdin
[11:12] <stdin> thanks
[11:12] <Lure> jpatrick: we can probably remove other two, as they even do not have wiki page
[11:12] <Riddell> allee: your topic seems to be first
[11:12] <Hobbsee> * Guillaume Martres (Smarter)  here?
[11:12] <allee> k
[11:12] <jpatrick> Lure: well they're both admins of kubuntu-es.org
[11:12] <Lure> jpatrick: but they need to write proper wiki presentation
[11:12] <allee> Me wondered if it's worth to add permanent meeting Topics about:
[11:12] <allee> News/Critics/Problems/Status to Upstream: KDE, Debian KDE Packages
[11:12] <allee>  Ditto for our Users: About feedback, requests, complain
[11:12] <ardchoille> I have a question and a request regarding Hardy. If this is the right place to post it, let me know when.
[11:13] <Lure> allee: it makes sense, but we should first agree to have more regular meetings
[11:13] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: has wikilock.
[11:13] <mhb> ardchoille: ask in kubuntu-devel preferably
[11:13] <Jucato> ardchoille: perhaps later in #kubuntu-devel
[11:13] <ardchoille> Ah, ok.
[11:13] <Jucato> er.. I'm an echo :)
[11:13] <Riddell> Lure++
[11:14] <Lure> Riddell: I would start with every 2nd week or so
[11:14] <Tonio_> I just added a last point to discuss :) sorry for this
[11:14]  * allee nods
[11:14] <Lure> Riddell: even monthly would be better than ad-hoc
[11:14] <Hobbsee> Lure: every month was the plan, and worked fine until i got snowed under with exam stuff
[11:14] <jpatrick> that's what I said :)
[11:14] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: should be okay now
[11:14] <Riddell> anybody have News/Critics/Problems/Status to Upstream: KDE, Debian KDE Packages?
[11:14] <Riddell> I know I need to send the debian kde packagers a diff of our kde 3 packages now they are merged
[11:15]  * Hobbsee gives back the wikilock
[11:15] <Hobbsee> yeah, please make sure you send stuff back - some of us have direct commit access, and bribes are accepted.
[11:15] <ardchoille> hehe
[11:15] <Tonio_> every month doesn't seem enough to me, depending the status of the dev cycle
[11:16] <imbrandon> yea but monthy is better than ad-hoc :)
[11:16] <Tonio_> maybe every 2 weeks and monthly after feature freeze or something like that
[11:16] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: well, duh :)
[11:16] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: that sounds sane.
[11:16] <ardchoille> I agree with Tonio_ , perhaps every 2 weeks?
[11:16] <allee> I'm not aware of 'upstream' problems/suggestions.
[11:17] <Tonio_> also we should consider extra meetings especially for feedback on beta releases for example
[11:17] <Riddell> lets try every two weeks, should keep meeting shorter if nothing else
[11:17] <Lure> Riddell: I do not see open issues now, but I expect some work is needed jointly with debian on PolicyKit/ConsoleKit support in KDE
[11:17] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: yea i have alioth commit access now too, and should be arround alot more this cycle fwiw, got all the RL streightend out and been back for a few months now
[11:17] <Lure> Riddell: I see that gnome packages already dopted it
[11:17] <Riddell> Lure: consolekit we have already
[11:17] <jpatrick> Lure: we have it too
[11:17] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: great!
[11:17] <Riddell> at least for kde 3
[11:17] <Tonio_> I'll give you one example : we didn't get feedback for gutsy beta, and didn't consider people's dissapointment with strigi and dolphin for example
[11:18] <Lure> Riddell: great, but my usb stick still does not work
[11:18] <allee> AFAIU debian does not use a seperate install tree but use FHS for KDE$
[11:18] <Lure> Tonio_: I agree - we should reconsider such changes again based on beta feedback
[11:18] <Hobbsee> allee: FHS?
[11:19] <Riddell> Lure: works fine here (hardy install from yesterday)
[11:19] <Lure> Hobbsee: File Hierarchy Standard
[11:19] <Hobbsee> Lure: oh right
[11:19] <Lure> Riddell: ok, then something is wrong with my setup, will look into it
[11:19] <Riddell> shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:20] <Hobbsee> oh
[11:20] <Hobbsee> #startmeeting
[11:20] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:20. The chair is Hobbsee.
[11:20] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[11:20] <Riddell> since it's on the agenda
[11:20] <Hobbsee> forgot that
[11:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: I added the point on the wiki, and I consider that yes, we should
[11:20] <Hobbsee> TOPIC: shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:20] <Hobbsee> TOPIC shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:20] <Tonio_> especially dolphin imho
[11:20] <mhb> I guess we should
[11:20]  * allee removed strigi
[11:20] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: with a # in front maybe?
[11:21] <Hobbsee> #TOPIC shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:21]  * Lure too
[11:21]  * Tonio_ removed dolphin ;)
[11:21] <Tonio_> and strigi
[11:21] <Riddell> personally I love dolphin, I've started using a GUI file manager since we got it
[11:21] <Hobbsee> [TOPIC] shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
[11:21] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: ITYM "[TOPIC]"
[11:21] <Hobbsee> hurrah!
[11:21]  * Mithrandir ruffles Hobbsee 
[11:21] <waylandbill> I don't mind dolphin but it sometimes won't paste to remote fish locations, which is a problem for what I'd use it for.
[11:21] <Riddell> what are the arguments against it?
[11:21] <Tonio_> there are lots of problems with dolphin
[11:21] <Lure> Riddell: I am also fine with dolphin as default, but we should have easy way for users to switch back
[11:21] <ardchoille> I dislike dolphin because it lacks a tabbed ui and there is no easy way to enable a tree view.
[11:22] <Tonio_> lack of support for ark is the best example
[11:22] <mhb> personal preferences, lack of maintainers
[11:22] <imbrandon> Riddell: no tabs :(
[11:22] <Lure> Tonio_: not sure if this are problems for typical users - probably stdin and Jucato can give some feedback from support channel
[11:22]  * _StefanS_ removed all dolphin aswell
[11:22] <Tonio_> also, there are lots of bugs that maybe some of us don't see but that really causes problems to the user
[11:22] <risto> i think dolphin should have also tree view
[11:22] <kwwii> Tonio_: the ark thing is pretty bad
[11:22] <ardchoille> Also lacks a way to delete a file/folder or empty the trash
[11:22] <Lure> imbrandon: that is power user feature
[11:22] <mhb> a hard way to switch back - but I think that plagues us for some releases
[11:22] <stdin> from what I've seen, the only reason people are so resistant to dolphin is because it's not konqueror
[11:22] <Jucato> Hardy is an LTS release. d3lphin seems to be unmaintained by the main forker/developer. we'll be doing almost all of the fixing and adding of features to make it usable. are we willing to do that for the lifetime of Hardy?
[11:22] <Tonio_> graphical bugs when switching to twin panel
[11:22] <allee> Poweruser removing dolphin does not count!!!  That's expected !!!!
[11:23] <Hobbsee> seeing as we're not dolphin developers, is there any great point in discussing how dolphin should be changed?
[11:23] <_StefanS_> stdin: lack of features, stability also...
[11:23] <Tonio_> dolphin sometimes looses user's preferences (I've seen that and it's been reported)
[11:23] <imbrandon> Lure: ever since every browser on the planet got tabs , tabs are no longer a "power" feature in apps
[11:23] <Jucato> Hobbsee: there are no d3lphin developers (emphasis on plural)...
[11:23] <Lure> imbrandon: they are for file mgmt interface
[11:23] <Tonio_> kde devs seems pretty much concerned by this problem and by our dolphin giving bad feeling to the user....
[11:23] <dthacker> Jucato: Is upstream non-maintained or the Kubuntu package?
[11:23] <Hobbsee> i would have thought the better discussion would be on "based on what we know the failures of dolphin to be, what do we want to do about it in kubuntu?
[11:23] <_StefanS_> imho dolphin isn't mature
[11:23] <stdin> _StefanS_: yeah, but most people aren't even willing to try dolphin to start with. they see it's not what they are used to and don't like to change
[11:23] <Jucato> dthacker: upstream (one man team)
[11:23] <stdin> (IMHO)
[11:23] <Tonio_> I agree with dolphin on kubuntu, but please don't make it the default !
[11:24] <ardchoille> Dolphin does not keep hidden files viewable across sessions, the option doesn't "stick"
[11:24] <dthacker> ouch! that's thin for LTS.
[11:24] <Tonio_> cause konqueror, despite it's problems, is way more mature
[11:24] <mhb> there is little sense in putting dolphin and not making it default.
[11:24] <Lure> stdin: if they do not want to change, we should make it easy to swicth back
[11:24] <_StefanS_> stdin: well my wife hated it too, and she's no poweruser, nor does she use adv. features
[11:24] <imbrandon> mhb: +1
[11:24] <stdin> Lure: agreed
[11:25] <_StefanS_> stdin: thumbnail displays not behaving and so on
[11:25] <stdin> _StefanS_: I'm not saying it's the only reason people don't like it, but a lot of people don't get past that one
[11:25] <Tonio_> another problem is that due to the way we do the association with inode/directory, every kds update overwrites the settings and switch bad to dolphin
[11:25] <Tonio_> which is nasty
[11:25] <Riddell> spose we could just take a vote and see what way it goes
[11:25] <Jucato> to be fair, I think mhb has started to fix some of d3lphin's biggest issues. I think that if we or someone is willing to do a lot of the heavy lifting on our side for the duration of LTS, we can keep d3lphin as the default
[11:25] <Lure> stdin, Jucato: are there bug reports on #kubuntu or just "I prefer konquerer better"?
[11:26] <mhb> I have read through many of the bug reports, some are pretty bad, but I think they are fixable
[11:26] <_StefanS_> Jucato: not enough ressources
[11:26] <Tonio_> Lure: most common issues discussed concern preferences lost
[11:26] <Jucato> Lure: user opinion on this matter is a bit split. But I've observed that most complaints about d3lphin are due to d3lphin being broken
[11:26] <Tonio_> Jucato: not enough ressources and too much for for ONE release only
[11:26] <Jucato> (no tabs is just a minor nuisance compared to others)
[11:26] <Lure> Tonio_: I understand users used to konq, but I am more concerned about new users
[11:27] <Hobbsee> [ACTION] People to merge packages back in with the debian QT KDE extras team as much as possible
[11:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  People to merge packages back in with the debian QT KDE extras team as much as possible
[11:27] <Lure> Tonio_: if you like konq, it is still there and we should make it easier to swicth
[11:27] <Hobbsee> [ACTION] stdin is a new kubuntu member
[11:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  stdin is a new kubuntu member
[11:27]  * allee does not dare to look at Hobbsee
[11:27] <Hobbsee> allee: :P
[11:27] <mhb> it is quite easy to say "we", but I think we should find volunteers for some actions, otherwise nobody does it
[11:27] <Tonio_> Lure: to what I've seen, once you tell them "to tar.gz a file, you have to go command line" they consider dolphin is shit
[11:27] <Hobbsee> allee: i've merged bits back
[11:28] <Tonio_> Lure: that's my point
[11:28] <mhb> for example, I volunteer to solve some of the evil bugs on D3lphin that are reported
[11:28] <mhb> if it stays
[11:28] <imbrandon> i just merged lots of bits back for underpinngs of libs amarok uses :)
[11:28] <Hobbsee> mhb: +1
[11:28] <imbrandon> heh
[11:28] <Tonio_> and I really feel bad about that since I am the guy who suggested it's inclusion, which was a bad idea, really
[11:28] <Lure> Tonio_: can we create a page with top bug list or just prioritize them in LP?
[11:28] <Riddell> mhb: might you volunteer to add a "file manager" to Default Applications?
[11:29] <Lure> mhb: you have my full support
[11:29] <ardchoille> Riddell: That is an excellent idea
[11:29] <Tonio_> Lure, mhb, Riddell: I'm okay to give dolphin a chance, but don't forget that hardy is lts
[11:29]  * Jucato tried to figure out how to add a file manager chooser... but gave up :P
[11:29] <Lure> mhb: I may look into some bugs too, as I like that we are not changing our mind every release
[11:29] <waylandbill> I may be able to find time to help with D3lphin as well.
[11:29] <Tonio_> so even if lots of things are done, we might consider removing it if that's not enough
[11:29] <mhb> Riddell: I might try, but I hoped for other people to follow my example :o)
[11:29] <dthacker> Tonio_: +1
[11:30] <Lure> Tonio_: I know, but SRU are done primarily for security (not that big concern for dolphin) and major fixes
[11:30] <mhb> Riddell: but if nobody else volunteers, I can attempt to do it
[11:30] <Hobbsee> [ACTION] mhb, Lure, waylandbill and others to help solve some of d3phin's bigger issues
[11:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mhb, Lure, waylandbill and others to help solve some of d3phin's bigger issues
[11:30] <Tonio_> mhb: promissing not to go angry if we decide to drop it despite your work arround it ?
[11:30] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: he'll probably just come and kill you, nothing major.
[11:30] <imbrandon> lol
[11:30] <Tonio_> mhb: cause I know the frustration of doing good work and see the work droped from kubuntu, bad feeling :)
[11:31] <Jucato> can we set a deadline to see if these issues can be resolved? hopefully not at the last minute?
[11:31] <mhb> Tonio_: I wont be angry publicly, I can promise that :o) I hoped that we can first decide and then vote
[11:31] <Riddell> Jucato: feature freeze presumably
[11:31] <Tonio_> mhb: I don't want to hurt you on that point, but of course I'll propose it's removal again if I'm convinced we go on the wrong way for hardy (lts)
[11:31] <mhb> Tonio_: err, then take action
[11:32] <Tonio_> mhb: my point is "are we sure to make it mature enough for default inclusion" ?
[11:32] <Jucato> in an *LTS*
[11:32] <Tonio_> never forget companies are looking for lts for example
[11:32]  * _StefanS_ highly doubt that d3lphin will ever be mature before kde4 takes over
[11:32] <mhb> I would like to know how many people would still vote against Dolphin if some of the major bugs were fixed and there would be the file manager chooser
[11:32] <Tonio_> we can't release with something that is not as stable and mature than konqueror is
[11:32] <Tonio_> is there a plan for ark inclusion ?
[11:33] <Tonio_> fixing bugs is not enough, dolphin lacks features !
[11:33] <Jucato> mhb: you have my vote *for* D3lphin if that happens
[11:33] <dthacker> can we say "re-assess readiness in 6--8 weeks" and see how much work mhb and the other are able to get knocked out?
[11:33] <ardchoille> Speaking as someone who has helped more than 200 people switch from other OS's to Ubuntu/Kubuntu, would you all like to hear what my clients are saying about dolphin?
[11:33] <allee> mhb: I like dolphin UI and my kids too.  So without big bugs +1 from my POV
[11:33] <Riddell> ardchoille: sure
[11:33] <Tonio_> can we improve dolphin to the point it is mature enough to be used for 3 years in companies ?
[11:33] <Jucato> ardchoille: fire away please :)
[11:33] <Tonio_> that's the one and only question we should consider
[11:33] <Tonio_> and my response is probably : no, to much work
[11:33] <waylandbill> I could look at how to add a file manager choice in Default Apps, but don't want to commit to say that I can until I look at the coding involved. I think it would be helpful to have regardless of the ultimate default chosen.
[11:34] <ardchoille> The bulk of the comments are more like "isn't that a gnome program? kde is powerful but dolphin seems to be dombed-down"
[11:34] <Lure> mhb: can we create wiki page with top offenders and then prioritize
[11:34] <ardchoille> *dumbed
[11:34] <Tonio_> but mhb can do it, I'm fine with it, I just don't want to take the risk of getting him to work on it and then drop te package in 2 month cause it is too "touchy"
[11:34] <mhb> Lure: bug reports will do, we can prioritize them
[11:34] <Lure> ardchoille: we will have such comments also in kde4 (even though that dolhin improved)
[11:34] <Lure> mhb: ok, will start there.
[11:34] <Jucato> Lure: I gave mhb a list of top offending d3lphin bugs. I checked on them after a day or so and saw mhb has started doing work on it :)
[11:34] <Lure> eveybody: check priorities/severity of bugs and put comments for top issues
[11:34] <_StefanS_> Lure: dolphin in kde4 is way better
[11:35] <Tonio_> waylandbill: I looked at that, and that's pretty hard to do
[11:35] <Jucato> (and I lost the list so only mhb has it :P)
[11:35] <Riddell> we should move on
[11:35] <mhb> right
[11:35] <Tonio_> waylandbill: not because of the module, but because apps have to be patched to use the defined value
[11:35] <Riddell> I'm feeling that if top issues are fixed it'll be good to include in hardy
[11:35] <Hobbsee> [action] people to prioritise d3lphin bugs, and fix them.
[11:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  people to prioritise d3lphin bugs, and fix them.
[11:35] <allee> _StefanS_: but still not that mature :(
[11:35] <Hobbsee> Riddell: +1
[11:35] <Riddell> we can reassess around feature freeze
[11:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: top issues and ark, please consider ark.....
[11:35] <Riddell> next item is "Discuss KubuntuHardyCatchup." but there's no name next to it
[11:36] <Jucato> yes, one of the most complained is Ark :)
[11:36] <Hobbsee> er, do weekend meetings work better fo rpeople in general?
[11:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's the one and only problem I consider really grave with dolphin
[11:36] <ardchoille> I haven't seen any problems with ark, I love that app.
[11:36] <Hobbsee> ardchoille: except when it crashes :)
[11:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe you don't use ark, but my mother can't go with tar command line.......
[11:36] <jpatrick> Riddell: mine, I thought we'd talk on who's working on what and how it's going
[11:36] <mhb> Hobbsee: they do for me, I have school until late in the evening
[11:36] <Jucato> ardchoille: Ark integration in dolphin is what we mean )
[11:36] <ardchoille> Hobbsee: Ah, ok. I've never had anything crash since Breezy
[11:37] <ardchoille> Jucato: Ah, right.
[11:37] <Hobbsee> ardchoille: try with a big file.
[11:37] <Hobbsee> or a big set of files
[11:37] <ardchoille> Oh
[11:37] <Riddell> bonus points to segunda for being the first to implement part of KubuntuHardyCatchup
[11:37] <Tonio_> ardchoille: no way to compress a file, only folders, no way to select the compression type, and tar.gz is evil if your user has windows etc......
[11:37] <ardchoille> Tonio_: Ok
[11:37] <Jucato> s/segunda/Serega/ :)
[11:37] <Hobbsee> [topic] kubuntu hardy catchup!
[11:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  kubuntu hardy catchup!
[11:37] <Riddell> jpatrick: that's the dude :)
[11:37] <waylandbill> Tonio_: I agree. have to have compression choices for sure.
[11:37] <mhb> ah, I wonder who that was
[11:37] <jpatrick> Riddell: or Jucato )
[11:38] <Jucato> :)
[11:38] <Riddell> jpatrick comes in a close second with LUKS support
[11:38] <jpatrick> :)
[11:38] <allee> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
[11:39] <Riddell> still searching for helpers on User Hard Disk Mounting, Brightness Control, Compiz and Printing Tools
[11:39] <Hobbsee> compiz should actually work now
[11:39] <jpatrick> Compiz has started in https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/guidance/desktop-effects-kde
[11:39] <Hobbsee> the compiz guys have been doing some work, but are having trouble getting it to build sometimes
[11:39] <Lure> Riddell: I am a bit lost with laptop brightness key regression, but there is one user that want to help
[11:40]  * allee plans to learn via helping with python qt4 (kde4) programming
[11:40] <Lure> Riddell: I really do not get it where the key is lost
[11:40]  * jpatrick too
[11:40] <Tonio_> Lure: can't help on that point since pommed and macbook still work on that point, and I have no other machine than macbooks now :/
[11:41] <Riddell> we shouldn't be coding anything in qt3 any more
[11:41] <allee> Riddell: I'll have a look into the printing stuff.  Sounds interesting on first reading
[11:41] <Riddell> allee: excellent :)
[11:41]  * _StefanS_ could help test the brightness controls on a few local laptops
[11:41] <Lure> Riddell: what about guidance powermanager? I know someone did initial qt4 port that sebas commited somewhere, but not sure if it makes sense to move it forward
[11:41] <Riddell> _StefanS_: talk to Lure there
[11:42] <Riddell> Lure: there's a power manager plasma applet for kde 4
[11:42] <Riddell> not sure how complete it is, but that's the way to go
[11:42] <Lure> Riddell: I will write mail to kubuntu-devel today and Cc interested people
[11:42] <Hobbsee> it's shiny.  it even wroks
[11:42] <Hobbsee> no idea if you can customize it, though
[11:42] <_StefanS_> Lure: mail me when you would like stuff for brigthness tested
[11:43] <Lure> _StefanS_: will write down some debugging notes today/tommorow
[11:43] <allee> didn't qt3 powermanager use poll?  this should be fixable with qt4 dbus right?
[11:43] <Tonio_> the question is more "should we still consider working on guidance-power-manager for hardy" ?
[11:43] <Lure> _StefanS_: and I am trying to get one old dell laptop at work for testing (we only have HP around)
[11:43] <Tonio_> seems mature enough for me
[11:43] <Tonio_> the only big problem is the lack of translation
[11:43] <Riddell> allee: yes, but we're close enough to kde 4 that we should just wait for that
[11:43] <Lure> Tonio_: yep, that is also my impression
[11:43] <Lure> allee: yes, that is fixable
[11:44] <Lure> allee: just some work
[11:44] <allee> Riddell: so Hardy will poll 3 years ?  :)
[11:44] <mhb> moving on?
[11:44] <Lure> allee: 1sec polling is not that bad if you look at your powertop output ;-)
[11:44] <allee> Lure: :)
[11:45] <Tonio_> is the lack of translation fixable or not ?
[11:45] <Lure> allee: I can work on low level stuff (hal, dbus...), I am just not GUI developer ... ;-)
[11:45] <Lure> Tonio_: lack of translation?
[11:45] <Riddell> Tonio_: should be yes
[11:45] <Tonio_> we are releasing with english powermanager for a long time now, an lts should have this fixed
[11:45] <allee> Riddell: so mantra: is fix stabilize KDE3 for hardy.  Bigger tasks in qt4 so they can be used in KDE4 without chagnes?
[11:45]  * Lure was not aware of that 
[11:45] <Riddell> I didn't even know translation were broken
[11:45] <Tonio_> Lure: powermanager is in english only
[11:46]  * Lure needs to start Slovenian translations.. ;-)
[11:46] <Riddell> allee: yes
[11:46] <Tonio_> Lure: translations are done in kde
[11:46] <Tonio_> just that we don't get them for some strange reason....
[11:46] <Tonio_> we have to make this the top priority issue I suspect...
[11:46] <Riddell> Hobbsee: action that
[11:47] <Tonio_> imho LTS release means "corporate usage", and therefore priorities are a bit different on that point
[11:47] <Riddell> me and Tonio_ to look into power manager translations
[11:47] <Tonio_> Riddell: yup, I can spend time on taht point
[11:47] <Hobbsee> [action] Riddell and Tonio_ to fix powermanager translations for hardy, as we appear to have none
[11:47] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell and Tonio_ to fix powermanager translations for hardy, as we appear to have none
[11:47] <Riddell> "Decide on regular meeting times" seems to be next
[11:48] <jpatrick> I thought we did that..
[11:48] <mhb> we did that already, didnt we?
[11:48] <Hobbsee> [topic] Decide on regular meeting times
[11:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  Decide on regular meeting times
[11:48] <_StefanS_> Lure: I have a dell laptop I could give you remote access to if you want to test dell specific stuff. obviously you cant see brigthness, but it may help you anyways
[11:48] <Lure> mhb: we just need to decide on day and time
[11:48] <Jucato> time and day?
[11:48] <Jucato> yeah
[11:48] <Hobbsee> [action] we will have meetings every 2 weeks, preferably on a weekend.
[11:48] <MootBot> ACTION received:  we will have meetings every 2 weeks, preferably on a weekend.
[11:48] <Hobbsee> this time works well for me.
[11:48] <jpatrick> seems decided :)
[11:48] <Riddell> hmm, weekends a are variable for people
[11:48] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: +1
[11:48] <Riddell> and this time doesn't work for US
[11:48] <Lure> _StefanS_: will see,
[11:48] <mhb> lets move times, but keep weekends
[11:48] <_StefanS_> Lure: now you know ;)
[11:48] <dthacker> time works if coffeepot works
[11:48] <Hobbsee> erm, it probably won't be for me in 2 weeks, perhaps.  we'll see.
[11:49] <Riddell> I think we should rotate between 11UTC and 23UTC
[11:49] <ardchoille> I would like to know if there is a schedule or something that shows when and where new meetings will be held.. I'd like to attend future meetings
[11:49] <Lure> Riddell: that sounds ok for me
[11:49] <dthacker> Riddell: +1 on rotation
[11:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: oki for me
[11:49] <Hobbsee> ardchoille: kubuntu devel ML
[11:49] <ardchoille> Hobbsee: ty
[11:49] <stdin> ardchoille: and http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
[11:49] <Riddell> and I also think we should rotate between weekends and non weekends
[11:50] <Lure> Riddell: actually I am also fine with weekday, if it is 11UTC (I can eat snack for lunch at work) ;-)
[11:50] <ardchoille> stdin: Awesome, ty
[11:50] <Riddell> I know I'll miss some weekends, I do like to get away from a computer  sometimes :)
[11:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: and I'll blame you for this !
[11:50] <ardchoille> lol
[11:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: :)
[11:50] <imbrandon> Tonio_: fwiw, i'm looking at the dolphin kde3 ark issues, i think i can have this fixed in less than 24 hours
[11:50] <Riddell> well, mostly other people like to get me away from the computer
[11:51] <imbrandon> Riddell: ^^
[11:51] <dthacker> heresy!
[11:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: you're a fake geek ^^
[11:51] <Lure> Riddell: same here ;-)
[11:51] <Tonio_> imbrandon: if we can you'll resolve 50% of dolphin problems
[11:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: haha, I have the same problem
[11:51] <Riddell> imbrandon: and tonio will love you
[11:52] <imbrandon> yea i'm falling asleep here soon, but it seems trivial, i already have 2 of the things on your list fixed localy
[11:52]  * Hobbsee will have trouble getting to meetings, but does anyway.
[11:52] <Hobbsee> (unless i set them)
[11:52] <Riddell> I say we try rotating between saturdays and wednesdays and 11UTC and 23UTC and stop caring about making sure everyone can turn up since that's imposible all the time
[11:53] <Lure> Riddell: so wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa
[11:53] <mhb> works for me.
[11:53] <Riddell> Lure: well rotating
[11:53] <Riddell> so a cycle of four meetings
[11:53] <Lure> Riddell: ok
[11:53] <ardchoille> stdin: Any way to get that calendar into my korganizer?
[11:53] <Tonio_> wednesday 11utc is sensitive.....
[11:53] <dthacker> +1 to the cycle of 4
[11:53] <Tonio_> most people work at that time
[11:54] <jpatrick> ardchoille: there's an ical somewhere
[11:54] <Hobbsee> [action] 2 weekly meetings, wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa (4 cycle)
[11:54] <MootBot> ACTION received:  2 weekly meetings, wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa (4 cycle)
[11:54] <Lure> Tonio_: take lunch break, as I will do
[11:54] <stdin> ardchoille: at the bottom of the page is a ical link
[11:54] <ardchoille> stdin: Right, got it
[11:54] <Tonio_> I might be there very often, as my company authorizes me to contribute, but not everyone as that chance
[11:54] <Riddell> well lets try that
[11:54] <Riddell> if there's meeting where nobody turns up, we'll know to change it
[11:54] <Tonio_> Riddell: sure
[11:54] <Riddell> "Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?"
[11:54] <Riddell> that seems to be in place
[11:55] <Riddell> "Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams"
[11:55] <mhb> splendid.
[11:55] <Hobbsee> [topic] Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?
[11:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?
[11:55] <Hobbsee> [topic] Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
[11:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
[11:55] <jpatrick> Riddell: seems the Kubuntu bit has some ??
[11:55] <dthacker> Riddell: what is the task here?
[11:55] <dthacker> cleanup and verify team status?
[11:56] <Riddell> actually it means https://wiki.kubuntu.org/TeamReports
[11:56] <Tonio_> [topic] Should we accept Riddell to expect having time for social life ?
[11:56] <Jucato> lol
[11:56] <Tonio_> na, doesn't work, I'm sorry !
[11:56] <Tonio_> :)
[11:57] <Riddell> it means writing down things as they happen over the month
[11:57] <kwwii> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Artwork/ReportingPage is the artwork teams first report
[11:57] <dthacker> "as they happen" meaning irc, ml ?
[11:58] <Lure> Riddell: I think we just need main editor (as nixternal for announcements of releases) and then we could probably contribute after regular meetings
[11:58] <Jucato> kwwii: over-all Ubuntu artwork team?
[11:58] <Riddell> dthacker: well it can be written all at the end of the month, but I'm told its best to update things sooner so they aren't forgotten
[11:58] <kwwii> Jucato: yepp
[11:58] <kwwii> Jucato: we have a meeting this evening, drop in
[11:59]  * Jucato not an artist. wanted to be one... art doesn't like him though... so does law :/
[11:59] <ardchoille> I'm good with documentation/editing and would like to volunteer to help if needed.
[11:59] <Jucato> kwwii: who are members from Kubuntu?
[11:59] <Lure> Riddell: you are right, month is a long time to remeber
[11:59]  * dthacker volunteers, as he can read irc and email better than he can package.
[11:59] <Jucato> (yay, I was about to volunteer :P)
[11:59] <dthacker> ardchoille: let's tag-team it
[11:59] <Riddell> ardchoille, dthacker: excellent
[12:00] <ardchoille> Just give me a task(s) and I'll do my best.
[12:00] <kwwii> Jucato: pretty much only me although on the list there are several people using kde (but just commenting)
[12:00] <kwwii> let's talk about this later
[12:00] <Riddell> ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
[12:00] <dthacker> I can do that.
[12:00] <Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: you/we could probably make a wiki for everything that has been discussed first, then we pick out the juicy ones or ones that have links to other wiki pages.
[12:00] <Riddell> Hobbsee: action!
[12:01] <Jucato> (sort of like an idea pool/scratchpad before we actually add to the team report page)
[12:01] <Hobbsee> [action] ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
[12:01] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
[12:01] <dthacker> Jucato: ++
[12:01] <Lure> Jucato: great idea - and we can subscribe to page to get notifications
[12:01] <Riddell>  AndrewYoung3  asks about a new package manager
[12:01] <Riddell> dunno if he's about but that's what packagekit is trying to do
[12:01] <Lure> dthacker, ardchoille: just name page Kubuntu something and I will get notification ;-)
[12:02] <Hobbsee> mhb's been talking about this too
[12:02] <Jucato> whois Vaelen
[12:02] <Jucato> oops...
[12:02] <Jucato> that works with a / :P
[12:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: packagekit is way to young to consider it now
[12:02] <Lure> Riddell: packagekit apt-get backend is not good enough for hardy
[12:02] <mhb> I have, but there is not much we can do for Hardy
[12:02] <dthacker> KubuntuDevNews? ardchoille, what do you think?
[12:02] <Riddell> no it's for hardy+1
[12:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: btw package manager is REALLY suprt sentitive to replace, an lts release is not the place for testing a new package manager
[12:03] <mhb> I say lets wait what happens
[12:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: but I'm all for testing it with hardy+1
[12:03] <ardchoille> dthacker: Sounds good. But where will it be and will I have write access?
[12:03] <Riddell> Tonio_: nobody is suggesting that
[12:03] <Jucato> at this point there's not much we can do about package management for Hardy except clean, fix and polish
[12:03] <mhb> if it will be testing-worthy after Hardy, well test it
[12:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: I know, that was just me anticipating the question :)
[12:03] <Riddell> mhb: had the next item
[12:03] <dthacker> ardchoille: on the wiki, and yes, if you are registered.
[12:03] <Jucato> ardchoille: it's a wiki. everyone has write access :)
[12:03] <ardchoille> dthacker: That answers the access question :)
[12:03] <Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: let's go to #kubuntu-devel about this after the meeting :)
[12:03] <dthacker> ok
[12:03] <ardchoille> Jucato: I'm there
[12:04] <mhb> yes, I was inspired by the Jucato blogs about the Kubuntu identity and vision
[12:04] <Jucato> uh oh
[12:04]  * Jucato hides
[12:04] <ardchoille> hehe
[12:04]  * Lure pulls Jucato back ;-)
[12:04] <mhb> after the OpenWeek it became clear that if we are to be best, we have to start caring about ourselves and not wait on Godot
[12:04] <Jucato> coincidentally, openSUSE released something like that a few days (weeks?) after I made that blog post
[12:04] <stdin> law suit!
[12:04] <ardchoille> Jucato: I wonder where they got the idea
[12:05] <dthacker> hehe
[12:05] <Riddell> I'm pretty sure the opensuse document had been in process for a long time
[12:05] <Jucato> yeah :)
[12:05] <mhb> are we going to keep being what we are? Standing in the shadow of Ubuntu and GNOME?
[12:06] <mhb> or are we going to try to be more self-promoting?
[12:06] <ardchoille> mhb: I say "NO!"
[12:06] <Lure> mhb: if you are talking about Canonical, probably yes - only great demand for Kubuntu support might change that
[12:06]  * Jucato wished nixternal were here though
[12:06] <Jucato> Lure: according to nixternal, Kubuntu has actually more deployments than Ubuntu (Desktop)
[12:06] <Tonio_> Jucato: yes, but not paying support
[12:07] <mhb> Lure: yeah, they wont support as (even through advertisement) until we start earning money for them
[12:07] <Lure> mhb: I think we need to fix the press announcements - we should get out of Ubuntu announcements, as they just raise expectations about having same features in Kubuntu
[12:07] <Tonio_> Jucato: most companies in france install kubuntu, but don't pay canonical for support, local companies like mine do it
[12:07] <Jucato> :(]
[12:07] <Tonio_> Jucato: welcome to free software :)
[12:08] <mhb> in my opinion a marketing team should be created that would aim to increase Kubuntu visibility
[12:08] <Lure> Tonio_: we just need more companies like yours giving some community time to their employees
[12:08] <Tonio_> that's life, and I consider this a good thing, but yeah, canonical doing more for kubuntu is unlikelly to happen
[12:08] <Tonio_> Lure: that's the plan yes
[12:08] <Lure> mhb: I would support that, I am just not the person that could help there
[12:08] <Lure> Tonio_: I am glad that they are paying Riddell and sending CD's
[12:09] <mhb> Lure: I would join it, but then I wouldnt have time for development
[12:09] <Lure> however it would be good to fix the CD shippments to LoCo's (small amount for Kubunut)
[12:10] <Lure> mhb: nixternal is natural candidate, we may also help kwwii and sebas (but he is busy with kde marketing I am sure)
[12:10] <Lure> s/help/ask for help/
[12:10] <Lure> anybody else that would help in improving Kubuntu message to the world?
[12:11] <jpatrick> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMarketing ?
[12:11] <mhb> Riddell: what about you? Are you happy with the current situation?
[12:11] <nosrednaekim> Erm, I could try,what would I have to do?
[12:11] <Jucato> Lure: we could try to first draw up a sort of vision/mission statement, something to express our identity and goals. otherwise we might be sending vague messages
[12:11] <kwwii> I think it is unfair to ask Riddell that in his position
[12:12] <mhb> it is
[12:12] <kwwii> in this format
[12:12] <mhb> however, I would like to hear his opinion
[12:12] <Jucato> kwwii: +1
[12:12] <allee> we can \sh and andreas again.  They've spent lots of thoughts on this topic already
[12:13] <Jucato> it would be nice to hear his opinion, but I don't think it would be easy for him to do so freely. :)
[12:13] <Riddell> I don't really know what to say
[12:13] <mhb> true, who knows who will read the log :o)
[12:13]  * mhb takes the question back, then
[12:14] <Riddell> I'd rather Ubuntu were more an umbrella brand and we were one of the variants on offer
[12:14] <Lure> mhb: we all have to understand that canonical has also limited resources and needs to set priorities
[12:14] <Lure> mhb: I do not like focus to gnome, but can understand it
[12:14] <mhb> Lure: I can understand it, too
[12:14] <mhb> Lure: my question is different
[12:14] <Riddell> but I realise having two products that target much the same areas is bad commercially
[12:14] <mhb> Lure: what should we as a team do?
[12:15] <Lure> mhb: make it rock!
[12:15] <mhb> Lure: do nothing or try to propagate ourselves?
[12:15] <Riddell> I'm not especially good at the whole vision thing
[12:15] <mhb> Lure: we have relied on Canonical to provide marketing in the past, but seeing as they concentrate on Ubuntu and will limit the marketing for Kubuntu, I say we should propagate ourselves more
[12:15] <allee> One of the points was: if kubuntu more .org or canonocals.com.   If it's .org and makes it's own marketing then other firms will probably  jump in
[12:15] <Lure> mhb: I think we need to use kde4 as much as possible - kubuntu with kde4 should really rock
[12:16] <Lure> mhb: and I think skipping it for hardy as actually good thing
[12:16] <allee> Lure: not before 4.0.3 I assume
[12:16] <Lure> mhb: queation is if we should not allign our next released (hardy based) on kde 4.1 release
[12:16] <Tonio_> mhb: +1 on everything
[12:17] <Lure> allee: I would expect kde 4.1 to follow soon after 4.0 (less than 6 month), more like a catch-up release
[12:17] <Riddell> Lure: that may well come out around hardy+1 time anyway
[12:17] <Riddell> it won't be much less than 6 months I imagine
[12:17] <imbrandon> Riddell: are we past alpha-1 freeze, aka i can upload my dolphin fixes ( i have the ark fixes complete )
[12:17] <imbrandon> ?
[12:17] <Lure> Riddell: you are probably right, we need to monitor closely
[12:17] <Riddell> imbrandon: upload away
[12:17] <imbrandon> kk
[12:18] <allee> imbrandon: cool
[12:18] <Riddell> mhb: we should always be on the look out for chances to market ourselves
[12:18] <dthacker> mhb: what is the gap that Canonical is leaving?  Then we can fill it.
[12:18] <Lure> imbrandon: untuil the meeting finishes, please fix the remaining 50% of problems Tonio_ is seeing
[12:18] <Lure> imbrandon: you rock!
[12:18] <imbrandon> hehe
[12:18] <Tonio_> imbrandon: thanks :)
[12:18] <imbrandon> np :)
[12:18] <nosrednaekim> I have a question,why can't we start integrating KDE4 apps?
[12:19] <nosrednaekim> like the new dolphin is amazing, as is the new Kate
[12:19] <nosrednaekim> the dekstop may not be ready, but the apps arefor the most part.
[12:19] <Lure> Riddell: can we talk with Canonical to fix Kubuntu LoCo CD shippments? (like be able to choose preference)?
[12:19] <Riddell> Lure: worth a shot
[12:20] <Lure> Riddell: here, people like kde much more than gnome, so lot's of cd will not get the user
[12:20] <Riddell> not sure who the person for that would be, maybe the community team
[12:20] <imbrandon> probably jono
[12:20] <Lure> Riddell: lot's of local burning is going on, but that is not the same as ShipIT (pro done)
[12:20] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: we plans to for kdeedu
[12:20] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: but dolphin of kde 4 wouldn't integrate well into kde 3
[12:21] <ardchoille> Let me get this straight.. d3lphin and dolphin are not the same thing?
[12:21] <Jucato> ardchoille: no
[12:21] <Lure> ardchoille: no
[12:21] <ardchoille> Which one is going into Hardy?
[12:21] <Jucato> d3lphin is the KDE3 fork of dolphin when Dolphin became KDE4 only
[12:21] <Jucato> d3lphin
[12:22] <nosrednaekim> ardchoille: same idea, but think of d3lphin as the "free trial version"...
[12:22] <Jucato> (we just renamed it to dolphin)
[12:22] <ardchoille> Ah, ok.
[12:22] <ardchoille> Ah, I see it's symlinked in Gutsy
[12:22] <Tonio_> there's one thing we should consider to make kubuntu more visible : stop release at the same date ubuntu does
[12:23] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: please don't.
[12:23] <Tonio_> that completly hides kubuntu, and sometimes obliges us to release with bugs that we should have fix in the first place
[12:23] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yeah, I know...... but forcing the release to sync with ubuntu causes problems that you can't ignore....
[12:23] <Riddell> delaying release causes plenty of problems too
[12:23] <Lure> Tonio_: true that, not sure how this impacts ShipIT though
[12:23] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: how many times did we release with a critical bug, just because we had too ?
[12:23] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i suspect it's a choice to not put our stuff in with the ubuntu release notes, too
[12:24] <Lure> Tonio_: but fixed schedule is great too
[12:24] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: based on how many of htem are still critical, even now, a while after release...i'm not sure that's a valid argument
[12:24] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I don't say split with ubuntu, but releasing 2 weeks after ubuntu wouldn't cause that much a trouble, and make it more visible
[12:24] <Lure> Hobbsee: +1
[12:24] <apachelogger__> good morning
[12:24] <Tonio_> although it would give us 2 weeks to focus on critical bugs, which would be important
[12:24] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: from teh release POV, yes it would.
[12:24] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: ubuntu releases depending on gnome cycle
[12:24] <Riddell> releasing while UDS is on would be problematic
[12:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: as we also do
[12:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: should we depend on gnome release cycle ?
[12:25] <allee>  Tonio_ yes
[12:25] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we should depend on ubuntu's, for various reasons you probably don't want to know about
[12:25] <nosrednaekim> does KDE even have a steady release cycle?
[12:25] <Hobbsee> nosrednaekim: no
[12:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I want to :)
[12:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: just that this is somehow a handicap....
[12:26] <Tonio_> I must say I said that to be provocating a bi
[12:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_:  not sorted by order of importance:  cd testing by the QA team, canonical staff's leave, dak import (aka, no security until everything is released), different freezes, non-kubuntu specific packages being changed later
[12:26] <Hobbsee> UDS
[12:26] <Hobbsee> bad publicity about "why didn't kubuntu release?  can they not get their act in gear?"
[12:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: release parties that get thrown off
[12:27] <Hobbsee> (as in, which release do you party for?)
[12:27] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: pick your favorites out of the above
[12:27] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I know all of this
[12:27] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: but that makes kubuntu invisible
[12:27] <mhb> well, I think Tonio_ s point stems from the Canonical preference, too
[12:27]  * Jucato thinks actually more people are asking "why do they need to follow Ubuntu's release" or "why did they release when it wasn't ready yet"..
[12:27] <Tonio_> whatever you can say, this is the direct consequence.....
[12:27] <allee> Tonio_: that's a marketing issue ;)
[12:27] <mhb> they would delay Ubuntu if there was a serious bug, but they wont do such a thing for us
[12:27] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: invisible?  no, but it doesn't market itslef much either.
[12:28] <Tonio_> allee: of course, but how to consider a better marketing without making kubuntu more visible ?
[12:28] <stdin> Jucato: they say that about gnome/ubuntu too, from what I've seen in #ubuntu
[12:28] <mhb> we dont have control over the release cycle, which might be bothersome
[12:28] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: have you already seen a news xsaying "New kubuntu on the way" ?
[12:28] <Hobbsee> mhb: from a canonical POV, Riddell'sthe only one allocated to kubuntu.  if he doesn't fix it, then tough luck
[12:28] <Tonio_> never happened
[12:28] <mhb> because people who do have control over our release cycle dont care for us at all
[12:28] <allee> Tonio_: seperate annoucements own new letter , ...
[12:28] <Jucato> stdin: unfortunately, I don't keep track with Ubuntu :)
[12:28] <Hobbsee> mhb: with 2 people on the release team, from kubuntu....
[12:28] <Tonio_> you have "Ubuntu blabla released" with at the bottom a very little note saying "kubuntu released too..."
[12:28] <Tonio_> I call that invisible
[12:29] <stdin> Jucato: lucky you :p
[12:29] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: that's somewhat of a choice to have separate release notes, though
[12:29] <Jucato> stdin: by necessity :)
[12:29] <Tonio_> allee: not enough imho
[12:29] <mhb> Tonio_: we never get in their announcements, that is certain
[12:29] <mhb> there is little we can do to promote Kubuntu in Canonicals announcements
[12:30] <Jucato> btw, I mentioned to nixternal something about the release notes. I suggested that we include in our release notes some of the changes or new features that are common among all Ubuntu's. (perhaps separate them into sections too)
[12:30] <apachelogger__> oh, wouldn't change much anyway
[12:30] <Tonio_> Hobbsee, allee just to say that my only solution to that is canonical doing more for us, cause as Hobbsee said, we are super dependant on gnome, and ubuntu will always hide kubuntu
[12:30] <allee> Tonio_: we own cananical nevertheless a lot, we use all their build structrues
[12:30] <Riddell> anyone want to discuss with slangsek when he gets up what the alpha 1 announcement will say?
[12:30] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: just an example : ALL the communication arround the french parliament is done with Ubuntu
[12:30] <Hobbsee> mhb: hang around in #ubuntu-release aroudn release times - they ask for release notes proofeeading, etc.
[12:30] <Hobbsee> the fact that no one does it doesn't mean it can't be done
[12:30] <Lure> Tonio_: yes, ubuntu announcement should not be the only thing that is send out - we should send out our own
[12:30] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: everyone is super surprised when I learn them that kubuntu, and not ubuntu, is used there
[12:31] <mhb> Hobbsee: proofreading is not editing
[12:31] <Tonio_> Lure: problem with naming, once again
[12:31] <Hobbsee> mhb: sure, but you can edit too
[12:31] <Tonio_> Lure: change distros names to Project : ubuntu, with "ubuntu gnome edition" and "ubuntu kde edition", and you win
[12:31] <mhb> Hobbsee: they want free grammar checking, not a completely different release note
[12:31] <apachelogger__> Lure: none would be interessed anyway
[12:31] <Hobbsee> mhb: i suspect they're open to change.
[12:31] <allee> Tonio_: +100
[12:31] <Tonio_> Lure: that's the only thing that can bring sunshine to kde in the ubuntu world
[12:31] <Tonio_> I'm done
[12:32] <Hobbsee> mhb: no one came up to me asking to add kubuntu stuff when i was the RM either.  *shrug*
[12:32] <Hobbsee> nor riddell
[12:32] <Hobbsee> that was 2 tribes, /6
[12:32] <Tonio_> cause we are technically linked to ubuntu, and hiden by the simple naming, which is the base of their marketing
[12:32] <Tonio_> no other issue than making, with the name kde egla to gnome.....
[12:32] <Tonio_> egal
[12:32] <allee> Tonio_ and all other should we try to introduce and use 'ubuntu kde edition' code name kubuntu and the long form whenever possible?
[12:33] <Tonio_> currently, simply because of the name, Ubuntu is the project AND the product
[12:33] <jpatrick> btw, slangsek seems to be wake
[12:33] <Tonio_> and kubuntu a derivative
[12:33] <Riddell> we should stop using the word derivative
[12:33] <Tonio_> sad but true
[12:33] <stdin> Tonio_: so is ubuntu
[12:33] <Lure> Riddell: but that is how we are considered, right?
[12:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: we don't, people do, because the distro name introduces to that
[12:34] <Riddell> Lure: maybe, but we're one variant of many
[12:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's not my opinion, but discuss with people that are not expert with ubuntu
[12:34] <Riddell> we're a derivative of debian, linspire is a derivative of us
[12:34] <Lure> Riddell: there was recent discussion about xubunut
[12:34] <apachelogger__> we are a variant of ubuntu, but also part of ubuntu
[12:34] <Tonio_> what is kubuntu ? ubuntu with kde on it !
[12:34] <Lure> Riddell: they have similar identity problems
[12:34] <apachelogger__> explain that someone who doesn't know anything -.-
[12:34] <Riddell> apachelogger__: ubuntu desktop is another variant
[12:35] <Lure> are they officially supported by Ubuntu project or Canonical or nothing
[12:35] <apachelogger__> but both are part of the ubuntu project
[12:35] <Tonio_> and with ubuntu their consider ubuntu the distro, not ubuntu the project
[12:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: sad to say it, but I understand that people still consider kubuntu that way
[12:35] <apachelogger__> me too
[12:36] <apachelogger__> explain it to someone who doesn't know anything is already quite hard
[12:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: you talk about reallity, not about how people understand it
[12:36] <apachelogger__> no idea how hard it must be to fully understand that
[12:36] <allee> Well is we are variants.  the 'ubuntu kde edition' is much better naming and to the point.  It pronounces the common ground and lists the flavour explicitely
[12:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: for most people, you have ubuntu, the one and only, the real distribution
[12:36] <Tonio_> and several derivatives, as is kubuntu, as is xubuntu, as is edubuntu
[12:36] <Tonio_> sad but true
[12:36] <ardchoille> I consider Ubuntu and Kubuntu to be seperate distros, and that is how I explain it to people.
[12:36] <Riddell> allee: that does sound like we're a derivative
[12:36] <stdin> allee: the ubuntu should be called "ubuntu gnome edition" ?
[12:36] <allee> Tonio_: we only need to hammer inot them that there are flavours/editons
[12:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: not if gnome becomes : ubuntu gnome edition
[12:37] <Riddell> nice but never going to happen
[12:37] <allee> stdin: I hope that they are no other choice  as ubuntu gnome edition
[12:37] <apachelogger__> allee: that is like a really bad name promotionwise
[12:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: then people understand that ubuntu is a project, with several branches
[12:37] <Lure> Riddell: I cannot agree - edition does not sound as derivative, but more like packaging
[12:37] <Tonio_> I have to leave guys, sorry...
[12:37] <Jucato> :(
[12:37] <stdin> allee: it would be good if that was to happen, I just don't see it actually happening
[12:37] <allee> apachelogger__: why?
[12:38] <Tonio_> Jucato: I'll read everything, we can rediscuss this later ;)
[12:38] <apachelogger__> allee: you have problems advertising the editions, because you would be forced to a have a base promotion for ubuntu
[12:38] <imbrandon> ok Tonio_ / Riddell : dolphin uploaded with ark fix, i'll get with mhb tomarrow and see what we cant do about some of the other issues, but for now i must sleep
[12:38] <apachelogger__> and really ubuntu kde edition is like an awul long name
[12:38] <allee> stdin, apachelogger: IMHO 'ubuntu kde edition' is still easier to explain to out-siders than ubuntu/kubuntu diff
[12:38]  * Jucato thinks it obvious from all these that we don't even agree amongst ourselves what Kubuntu really is...
[12:38] <Lure> apachelogger__: +1, I also think kubuntu name hase its own value
[12:39] <Lure> apachelogger__: we just need to start using it (i.e. own marketing)
[12:39] <allee> kubuntu is the 'code name' ;)
[12:39] <Riddell> time moves on
[12:39] <Lure> Riddell: yep, I will have to run soon
[12:39] <Riddell> we're unlikely to come to a conclusion on all of this, since that would be likely impossible
[12:39] <Riddell> we should move to the next item
[12:39] <nosrednaekim> I also think that the whole "kde edition" is superflous without the "gnome edition"
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Jucato: so, just run ubuntu instead :P
[12:39]  * Hobbsee ducks
[12:39]  * Jucato quakcs
[12:40]  * Jucato can't spell
[12:40] <Lure> I think we should get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
[12:40] <Riddell> Hobbsee: action it
[12:40] <Jucato> coul we try to move on to the other items and come back to this if we have the time?
[12:40] <Hobbsee> [action] get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
[12:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
[12:40] <Riddell> Jucato has the next item
[12:41] <Jucato> lots of items in https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals
[12:41] <Jucato> but some, like D3lphin has been discussed already
[12:41] <Jucato> just a follow up, what about Strigi?
[12:41] <ardchoille> I don't think strigi was discussed
[12:41] <Jucato> it was mentioned
[12:41] <Jucato> but d3lphin took over )
[12:42] <ardchoille> True
[12:42] <Jucato> :)
[12:42] <Riddell> strigi is default in KDE 4, we're the only people using it so far, I think that's really valuable to upstream
[12:42] <Riddell> and it really shouldn't get in people's way since it's off by default and has to be turned explicity on
[12:42] <Jucato> how about all the issues that users have been reporting? (eating CPU, batter, etc.)
[12:42] <Riddell> but we need to patch it to nice the daemon (although ionice would be better)
[12:43]  * dthacker notes that the US locos are looking at producing a run of CDs for non-approved teams. KDE could be done too, if enough CD's are ordered.
[12:43] <Jucato> Riddell: I think I mentioned that it's the default action in Konqueror and in Find Files/Folder from the K Menu?
[12:43] <dthacker> sorry, behind topic
[12:43] <Lure> Jucato: that is the problem
[12:44] <Jucato> so any mistyping in Konqueror's location field would fire up strigi (and all the other problems it brings)
[12:44] <Lure> Riddell: this is even SRU candidate
[12:44] <Riddell> Jucato: maybe we should change that back to google then
[12:44] <Jucato> (btw, even now in KDE4, strigi managed to eat up 11GB of my disk space w/o me noticing it until too late...)
[12:44] <Jucato> Riddell: wasn't it locate: before?
[12:44] <Riddell> it was
[12:45] <Jucato> anyway, that was just one of the things in my list. the other is about community involvement in development: recruitment, feedback, and specially testing.
[12:46] <Lure> Riddell: should we extend Default Applications with file manager (dolphin/konqueror) and search (strigi/locate) functionality?
[12:46] <allee> The 100% and too big index probs have to be known already to upstream.   What's their position?
[12:46] <Riddell> Lure: could do
[12:46] <Riddell> allee: it's on their todo but not priority
[12:46] <allee> Riddell: even with KDE4 almost ready for release?  Strange :(
[12:47] <apachelogger__> well, it will be once kde4 is out
[12:47] <Riddell> unfortunately jos couldn't come to UDS to discuss this
[12:47] <Jucato> and I'm imagining the KDE4 version will get fixed first before KDE3's?
[12:47] <apachelogger__> unless upstream likes bug report flood ;-)
[12:47] <Riddell> Jucato: it's all the same
[12:47] <Jucato> ah
[12:47]  * Lure has to run -> will read scrollback tonight
[12:47] <Jucato> hehe we're dropping like flies :)
[12:47] <Riddell> we are indeed
[12:48] <Riddell> Jucato: any proposals on how to get more community involvement?
[12:48] <Hobbsee> whip.
[12:48] <Jucato> ok,just very specific questions: where do we field ubuntu+1 testers and questions, is #ubuntu+1 a good place for Kubuntu users? 2) Could we update our Get Involved page with more specific junior jobs and contact persons per job? so that it would be easier for interested persons to join in?
[12:49] <Hobbsee> i think #ubuntu+1 is a good place, although i do have #kubuntu+1 registered to me
[12:49] <Hobbsee> it's still fairly quiet, and a lot is distro-agnostic
[12:49] <Riddell> actually #kubuntu-devel should be fine too
[12:49] <Jucato> Riddell: my idea is to make it very easy for interested people to start contributing, usually by providing names and places to go to.
[12:49] <Hobbsee> Riddell: id' prefer not to dump user support in there.
[12:50] <Riddell> so long as it doesn't get too busy
[12:50] <Hobbsee> Riddell: log reading, and such.
[12:50] <nosrednaekim> I don't think we should have a separate ubuntu+1, most things on it are very non-DE dependant.
[12:50] <nosrednaekim> and there are ussually some kubuntu people in there.
[12:50] <Hobbsee> Riddell: we need to be able to get stuff done (tm) in there, not be stuck answering support queries in the middle of discussions about where kubuntu, etc, is going
[12:51] <Jucato> I'm also thinking of a place for testing other stuff, like packages, features, etc. mhb: how is kubuntu-testers?
[12:51] <Hobbsee> Jucato: alive, but very quiet
[12:51] <Jucato> hm...
[12:51] <stdin> at early stages #ubuntu+1 is fine for both. it's only near release that you need to ask "ubuntu or kubuntu?"
[12:52] <Riddell> using #kubuntu-testers more would be good I think
[12:52] <Jucato> if we could have a more concrete list of stuff to do, like an updated https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu, I could probably try to write up something on the planet and in the forums
[12:52] <Jucato> a sort of campaign hammering for help :)
[12:52] <Riddell> to do lists get out of date quickly is the problem there
[12:53] <apachelogger__> not with a maintainer
[12:53] <dthacker> I can shake the loCo tree a bit for help.
[12:53]  * apachelogger__ just wishes there was a good floss for that kind of stuff
[12:53] <Jucato> I think having a contact person per item is also very important. there have been times when someone comes into -devel asking how he can help and where and who to talk to
[12:53] <Riddell> apachelogger__: are you volunteering? :)
[12:53]  * allee has to leave.
[12:53] <ardchoille> Is the meeting considered over?
[12:53] <Jucato> ardchoille: not yet :)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Jucato: +1
[12:53] <ardchoille> okie
[12:53] <apachelogger__> Riddell: nah, I already maintains amaroks todo :P
[12:53] <Hobbsee> we need to find another one
[12:53] <Jucato> trying to fast pace my topic (it's quite long :P)
[12:53] <ardchoille> hehe
[12:54] <Jucato> anyway, as far as kubuntuforums is concerned, I proposed some structural changes there to make it easier for developers to take a peek at what's happening, major issues/bugs, and feedbacks. I'm thinking it could be turned into a sort of seedbed for future contributors/developers
[12:55] <Jucato> still waiting for that to be implemented though :)
[12:55] <Jucato> Riddell: WinFOSS apps, we can't do anything about them? are we going to be able to fit KDE4 apps in Hardy despite that?
[12:55] <Jucato> (after this, I'm done. :P)
[12:55] <Riddell> Jucato: we're not having kde 4 apps on the same cd
[12:56] <Riddell> we'll have a kde 4 cd with luck
[12:56] <Riddell> and edubuntu should have kdeedu-kde4
[12:56] <Jucato> ah I thought kdeedu4 would be in hardy by default
[12:56] <Jucato> ok :)
[12:56] <Riddell> sure, but not on our cd
[12:56] <Jucato> ooooh ok :)
[12:56] <apachelogger__> well, we could drop ooo and put kdeedu4 in ;-)
[12:56] <Jucato> well I'm done. there were other items, but can be for next time :)
[12:57] <jpatrick> apachelogger__: put koffice2 would be better ;)
[12:57] <Riddell> last item on the agenda is "Kubuntu Packaing Day"
[12:57] <apachelogger__> jpatrick: I really think both would fit in the place ooo is requiring
[12:57] <Riddell> jono and the community team convinced me to have a packaging day with a few talks on how to get involved in kubuntu
[12:57] <jpatrick> Riddell: we're all ears :)
[12:58] <kwwii> Riddell: erm, the wallpaper issue?
[12:58] <Riddell> kwwii: still waiting on ruphy
[12:58] <apachelogger__> -.-
[12:58] <Riddell> Thu Dec 13th is penciled in as the day
[12:58] <Riddell> from 15UTC to 19UTC
[12:58] <kwwii> Riddell: hrm, ok
[12:58]  * apachelogger__ open his calendar
[12:59] <Riddell> so we need ideas for 4 talks
[12:59] <Riddell> packging 101 is in there
[12:59] <Riddell> its actually in there twice currently
[12:59] <apachelogger__> Oo
[12:59] <apachelogger__> bug triaging, translations, loco work
[12:59] <imbrandon> kde bug triageing ?
[13:00] <Riddell> nice ideas
[13:00] <Jucato> ooh triaging!
[13:00] <ardchoille> Riddell: I'd love to attend a class (#kubuntu-classroom ?) about packaging for Kubuntu. From the docs I read, there are about 100 ways to do it and the tuts are confusing.
[13:00] <apachelogger__> Riddell: also, maybe sebas could talk about how to contribute to kde?
[13:00] <imbrandon> ardchoille: thats because there are about 100 ways to do it :)
[13:00] <Riddell> plan is to have this in #kubuntu-devel actually
[13:00] <apachelogger__> contributing to upsteam is as important
[13:00] <Riddell> to bring people into the channel
[13:00] <ardchoille> imbrandon: lol
[13:01] <stdin> maybe a "how to work with cmake" too (cmake is only just about starting to begin to make sense to me)
[13:01]  * dthacker hums  there must be 100 ways to build a package...
[13:01] <imbrandon> 1003
[13:01] <imbrandon> :)
[13:01] <Riddell> pyqt4 programming too maybe
[13:01] <ardchoille> But which is the right/accepted way for the package to get into the repos?
[13:01] <Riddell> ardchoille: wait for the packaging day and find out :)
[13:02]  * ardchoille needs a packaging class
[13:02] <imbrandon> ardchoille: any of the 100 that meets quality standrs in the end
[13:02] <apachelogger__> Riddell: would mean to talk about cute as well
[13:02] <ardchoille> Riddell: That's a class I'll be attending
[13:02] <apachelogger__> Riddell: and I'm not sure whether everyone can follow in that short time
[13:02] <Riddell> I've done pyqt4 tutorials in an hour
[13:03] <apachelogger__> ok :)
[13:03] <Riddell> you can pick the basics up easily if you know a bit about OO programming in general
[13:03] <Riddell> apachelogger, imbrandon: so fancy doing talks on kde bug triaging, translations, loco work?
[13:03]  * nosrednaekim wonders on the state of pykde4
[13:03] <dthacker> what do you need to cover on loco work?
[13:04] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: not yet packaged
[13:04] <Jucato> nosrednaekim: pretty much doing well I've heard
[13:04] <nosrednaekim> I like the pyqt4 tutorial BTW, you might get some people from other distros with that.
[13:04] <Jucato> (but not packaged it seems :P)
[13:04] <Riddell> dthacker: I don't know, that's why I want a talk on it to find out :)
[13:04] <apachelogger> Riddell: txwikinger is a master bug triager, maybe he'd like to talk about that
[13:04] <apachelogger> txwikinger: pling
[13:04] <txwikinger> how do you now I am watching apachelogger?
[13:05] <imbrandon> pling related to bling ? like ping only better ? hehe
[13:05] <ardchoille> lol
[13:05] <dthacker> Organizing a loco?  Are there separate kubuntu locos?
[13:05] <apachelogger> imbrandon: yups :D
[13:05] <apachelogger> dthacker: well, only one I think, not even official though
[13:05] <apachelogger> kubuntu-de.org
[13:05] <txwikinger> dthacker: inofficial ones yes
[13:06] <apachelogger> txwikinger: so, are you willing to talk about bug triaging?
[13:07] <txwikinger> well.. I am not sure what really the difference to bug triage in general is
[13:07] <dthacker> can we get nixternal to talk about docs?
[13:07] <Riddell> txwikinger: not much, just talk about amarok bugs rather than rhythmbox bugs
[13:07] <apachelogger> ^_^
[13:07] <txwikinger> ah ok :)
[13:08] <Riddell> it doesn't need to be a full hour if it's not an hour long topic
[13:08] <dthacker> amarok has bugs?  I'm shocked :)
[13:08] <txwikinger> well if y'all want me to do it, I guess I can talk a little about triage
[13:08] <apachelogger> dthacker: nah, just wishes, the actual bugs are mostly packaging issue :P
[13:08] <imbrandon> Riddell: also might want to note the MOTU school is back and i planed on contacting them to do some Kubuntu pimpage + recruiting
[13:09] <Riddell> ok, I think we have some good ideas here, I'll munge it into a timetable for the day and see if it makes sense
[13:09] <Riddell> Hobbsee: still awake to action that?
[13:09]  * Hobbsee looks for which bit to action
[13:10] <Hobbsee> [action] KDE bug triage sessions to start, and packaging sessions
[13:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  KDE bug triage sessions to start, and packaging sessions
[13:10] <Riddell> Hobbsee: me munge it into a timetable for the day
[13:10] <Hobbsee> [action] Riddell to make a timetable for the KDE bug and packaging day
[13:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to make a timetable for the KDE bug and packaging day
[13:11] <steveire> Did I just miss all the interesting bits?
[13:11] <apachelogger> yes :P
[13:11] <steveire> Ah well...
[13:11] <Riddell> any other business?
[13:11] <nosrednaekim> was the wallpaper discussed already?
[13:11] <Hobbsee> no
[13:11] <nosrednaekim> and the theme?
[13:11] <Hobbsee> [topic] wallpaper and theme
[13:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  wallpaper and theme
[13:12] <dthacker> Jucato, ardchoille, still need to meet in #ubuntu-devel?
[13:12] <nosrednaekim> kde-look has some nice kubuntu wallpapers.
[13:12] <ardchoille> dthacker: I'm in #kubuntu-devel
[13:12] <Riddell> I don't have anything to discuss there, I'm waiting on ruphy from oxygen to get us the spare ones from the oxygen background contest
[13:12] <dthacker> kubuntu-devel, that is.  coffee needed.  brb
[13:12] <Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: I'll join a bit later. need to be somewhere after the meeting
[13:12] <kwwii> on this topic
[13:12]  * allee is back
[13:12] <kwwii> we have an art team meeting tonight at 19:00 UTC
[13:12] <kwwii> one of the issues is variant artwork
[13:13] <kwwii> so please, anyone who is interested in kubuntu artwork try to attend
[13:13]  * apachelogger notes the next meeting
[13:14] <dthacker> Jucato: ping me, I'll me monitoring
[13:14] <ardchoille> apachelogger: You can put the meeting events calendar into korganizer :)
[13:14] <apachelogger> Riddell: so, I think we have nothing to discuss, we can as well end the meeting
[13:14] <apachelogger> ardchoille: I don't use korganizer :P
[13:14] <apachelogger> <-- webapp guy
[13:14] <ardchoille> Ah, does it accept ical ?
[13:14] <Jucato> Google Calendar :)
[13:14] <Riddell> thanks all
[13:14] <nosrednaekim> thank you!
[13:14] <Riddell> next meeting a week on wednesday at 23UTC
[13:15] <nosrednaekim> now there is a better time!
[13:15] <nosrednaekim> :D
[13:15] <claydoh> +1
[13:15] <claydoh> :)
[13:15] <Jucato> oooh 7am my time the next day :)
[13:15] <txwikinger> 12 Dec?
[13:16] <Riddell> txwikinger: yes
[13:16] <txwikinger> thanks
[13:16] <Riddell> and hopefully it won't be as long as this one
[13:17] <ardchoille> The community is one of the things that make this a great distro, and this community rocks!
[13:17] <ardchoille> Thanks all.
[13:17] <dthacker> later
[13:18] <Jucato> :)
[13:18] <Jucato> laterz
[13:19] <Hobbsee> #endmeeting
[13:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:19.
[15:25] <kraut> moin
[17:28] <Hattory> @now rome
[17:28] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Rome: December 01 2007, 18:28:24 - Next meeting: Art Team in 1 hour 31 minutes
[18:54] <risto> @now estonia
[18:54] <risto> @now tallinn
[18:54] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Tallinn: December 01 2007, 20:54:46 - Current meeting: Art Team
[18:55] <kwwii> about 5 min
[19:00] <kwwii> ok, test, test...1,2-1,2...can everyone hear me?
[19:00] <Ken> I can't hear you! (I can read you though)
[19:00] <kwwii> cool
[19:01] <kwwii> who all is here for the artwork meeting? say hi
[19:01] <Gunirus> profoX`: ping :p
[19:01] <andreasn> hi
[19:01] <thorwil> hi
[19:02] <nothlit> hi
[19:02] <profoX`> hi Gunirus
[19:02] <kwwii> ok, let's give 3 more minutes for any late joiners...agreed?
[19:02] <deezid_> ok
[19:03] <Ken> Sounds good
[19:03] <thorwil> do you expect students? ;)
[19:03] <kwwii> I am just hoping that lots of people show up ;-)
[19:03] <lapo> hi
[19:04] <deezid_> maybe a music student :)
[19:04] <kwwii> that would be nice too
[19:04] <deezid_> can ask him if you like :)
[19:04]  * _MMA_ lurks.
[19:05] <kwwii> you lurker, you
[19:05] <kwwii> ok let's get going
[19:05] <kwwii> #startmeeting
[19:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 19:05. The chair is kwwii.
[19:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:05] <kwwii> starting with the first topic....
[19:05] <kwwii> #TOPIC art.ubuntu.com
[19:05] <kwwii> erm
[19:06] <andreasn> did it work?
[19:06] <kwwii> so here we go again with my lacking knowledge
[19:06] <kwwii> no
[19:06] <andreasn> perhaps without the #?
[19:06] <Ken> is it with the []'s?
[19:06] <kwwii> TOPIC art.ubuntu.com
[19:06] <andreasn> or "/TOPIC" ?
[19:06] <kwwii> right
[19:06] <nothlit> no definitely not the slash
[19:06] <Ken> What's th elvish word for topic?
[19:06] <thorwil> or with @ or !
[19:07] <kwwii> lol
[19:07] <andreasn> whups, that changed the whole topic
[19:07] <andreasn> crap
[19:07] <kwwii> art.ubuntu.com is basically finished
[19:07] <kwwii> lol
[19:07] <deezid_> this site is down?
[19:07] <Ken> sorry. back onto [TOPIC]
[19:07] <kwwii> oh shit
[19:08] <thorwil> deezid_: not up, i guess
[19:08] <deezid_> ok
[19:08] <kwwii> [TOPIC] art.ubuntu.com
[19:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  art.ubuntu.com
[19:08] <andreasn> sweet
[19:08] <kwwii> yipee
[19:08] <andreasn> :)
[19:08] <kwwii> so, art.ubuntu.com is basically finished and is waiting for code review
[19:09] <kwwii> what we need to find now is a couple of people interested in maintaing things
[19:09] <andreasn> any rough time estimation when it could be up?
[19:09] <kwwii> and communicating ideas across the mailing list, forums, etc
[19:09] <kwwii> andreasn: if it is not through code review in a week or so I will see about speeding up the process
[19:10] <andreasn> kwwii: sounds great
[19:10] <deezid_> :)
[19:10] <kwwii> so nothlit, feel like helping out on that?
[19:10] <kwwii> ;-)
[19:10] <nothlit> sure
[19:11] <kwwii> cool, anyone else can send me an email or we can discuss it in chat
[19:11] <kwwii> [ENDTOPIC]
[19:11] <kwwii> erm
[19:11] <troy_s> The bloody atrocity that is known as art.ubuntu.com will require someone with supreme dedication and time.  Forums might be a better starting point.
[19:11] <andreasn> perhaps we can mention we're looking for people who's interesting in that task on the mailing list?
[19:12] <Ken> generally speaking, I can help out, but only until mid-January.
[19:12] <Ken> (if you need to stall for someone who can really invest all-out time
[19:12] <kwwii> andreasn: good idea, once I know a general time frame I'll post to the list
[19:12] <andreasn> good
[19:12] <kwwii> Ken: sounds good
[19:13] <kwwii> #endtopic
[19:13] <kwwii> erm
[19:13] <kwwii> [/TOPIC]
[19:13] <kwwii> oh great, this is going to take forever
[19:13] <thorwil> kwwii: maybe there's no end, only starting the next?
[19:13] <Gunirus> kwwii: rtfm ?
[19:13] <andreasn> maybe if you just do a new "[TOPIC] ..."
[19:13] <troy_s> bugger the uber geektools.
[19:13] <Ken> Need another lord of the rings reference?
[19:14] <kwwii> [TOPIC] spreading information about the art direction, etc
[19:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  spreading information about the art direction, etc
[19:14] <Ken> Shiny.
[19:14] <kwwii> right, on this one, everyone should know that the wiki is the final place for information and the mailing list the almost nearly so
[19:14] <deezid_> complimentary colours :)
[19:15] <kwwii> but we need to communicate the information that will go out in the wiki in the forum and art.ubuntu.com
[19:15] <Ken> Yeah, I've tried to get info on what was already decided on the Art direction, and had to hit the mailing list.
[19:15] <kwwii> so, if anyone ask we all need to point them to the same place
[19:16] <kwwii> Ken: until now we are still awaiting final decisions on the art direction, that will be finished sometime late next week or so
[19:16] <kwwii> so there should be something online within a week or more
[19:16] <Ken> Is there a section with progress information?
[19:17] <nothlit> if anyone wants has information they had trouble finding feel free to suggest it so we can put it in the faq (if you want to do it yourself thats fine too :)
[19:17] <kwwii> if anyone is active in the forum, please spread this information
[19:17] <kwwii> nothlit: excellent point
[19:17] <Ken> Yeah, a mention in the FAQ would be perfect.
[19:17] <kwwii> Ken: not yet, it all basically says a bit of general background stuff and please wait
[19:18] <kwwii> we have been discussing lots of different ideas (mainly on the mailing list and wiki)
[19:18] <kwwii> from all of this we are forming the art direction information and once it is out we can move forward
[19:18] <Ken> Yeah, I read up on the mailing list. Nothing seems concrete, but a mention where the ideas are being discussed would be good.
[19:18] <kwwii> ok, I guess we nailed that one as well
[19:19] <kwwii> Ken: right, I'll add something to the wiki
[19:19] <andreasn> just a final question, the wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork, right?
[19:19] <andreasn> (that we point people to)
[19:20] <kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii adds information about the art direction decision process
[19:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii adds information about the art direction decision process
[19:20] <kwwii> andreasn: yes
[19:20] <andreasn> ok, just checking to be sure
[19:20] <kwwii> there is a link to hardy artwork there as well
[19:21] <kwwii> basically, all the really neat artsy stuff is in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming
[19:21] <Ken> it's fairly easy to find if you know where you want to go. :)
[19:21] <kwwii> yeah, pretty much
[19:21] <kwwii> ok, next topic
[19:21] <Ken> I even tossed a page in there, mwaha
[19:21] <Ken> anyway...
[19:21] <kwwii> [TOPIC] flickr
[19:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  flickr
[19:22] <kwwii> in order to get more contributions from existing channels, we discussed setting up a flickr group and make some tags so that people can discuss and contribute on flickr as well
[19:22] <kwwii> soooo...I created a group called "ubuntu-artwork"
[19:23] <kwwii> join up, help out
[19:23] <andreasn> url?
[19:23] <kwwii> http://flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/
[19:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/
[19:24] <kwwii> I think that you might get more than you'd think through flickr, we shall see
[19:24] <kwwii> anyone have any experience with flickr?
[19:24] <kwwii> anyone want to help with this?
[19:24] <Ken> This is all for incoming concept art I assume
[19:24] <kwwii> right
[19:24] <Ken> Honestly, I just googled flickr.
[19:25] <andreasn> joined, I can keep a eye on it
[19:25] <thorwil> my only experience is with browsing/searchging :)
[19:25] <deezid_> me too
[19:26] <Ken> Is there a way to divide flickr into sections like "desktops", "GTK ideas" etc?
[19:26] <andreasn> there are tags
[19:26] <kwwii> Ken that is exactly what I would like help with :-)
[19:26] <Ken> I see, so it's more like Gmail in the way that you just tag everything.
[19:27] <kwwii> right
[19:27] <kwwii> so we would need to figure that out in advance
[19:27] <troy_s> kwwii: Any chance of discussing actual hard elements regarding the work at some point?
[19:27] <kwwii> if anyone has any experience or ideas or just wants to help me mess up, email me :-)
[19:28] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, we were going to talk a bit about icons later
[19:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Great.  I would like to see if the folks can actually develop a 'style' out of the requirements:  glossless, etc.
[19:29] <kwwii> right, we'll get to that after one more topic
[19:29] <deezid_> no gloss? :D
[19:29] <Ken> I'd like to help out with that, if possible. I'll wait until were in the irght topic
[19:29] <deezid_> ok
[19:29] <kwwii> [TOPIC] bug hunting
[19:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug hunting
[19:30] <kwwii> ok, as always there are a bunch of "artwork" bugs  - I encourage everyone to help in triaging the bugs so figure out which ones are even really "artwork" bugs
[19:31] <kwwii> anyone have any ideas on how we could encourage more people to help?
[19:31] <Ken> Rendering errors or stylistic errors?
[19:31] <Ken> n/m
[19:31] <kwwii> the first step is to figure out what is exactly wrong, be it artwork or code
[19:32] <kwwii> so you do not have to be a genius or a great artist to help
[19:32] <andreasn> one thing we could do to make people hunt bugs harder is to report the bugs we have looked into ourselves
[19:32] <Ken> Do we have a page where users can go to report bugs?
[19:32] <troy_s> kwwii: I would say that a good degree of 'helping' is problematic on that front as you 'help' then the bikeshed of revisioning starts up.
[19:32] <andreasn> it's pretty easy to find artwork bugs just by searching
[19:32] <kwwii> andreasn: right, good idea...if anyone submits something to a package they should be associated with the art bugs that come with it for a couple of weeks at least
[19:33] <deezid_> maybe open a thread at ubuntu-forums dev-link forum?
[19:33] <kwwii> troy_s: ?
[19:33] <kwwii> deezid_: yeah, if only I was a forum user :-)
[19:33] <troy_s> kwwii: Maybe a page on the wiki is relevant.  Find the bug, push a bzr fix, attach comment with bzr branch link type of setup.
[19:33] <deezid_> there are many users using hardy already
[19:33] <Ken> A database maby?
[19:33] <troy_s> kwwii: Well for example, everything from creating an icon for a project (was filed as a bug) to 'fixing' bugs in windeco.
[19:33] <deezid_> mhh
[19:34] <troy_s> kwwii: It opens up a gongshow of bikeshed with the very real fact that aesthetics are being impacted.
[19:34] <kwwii> troy_s: it is not just about fixing them (although that is also nice) it is also about knowing which bugs are real and which are even our problem
[19:34] <kwwii> troy_s: i would exclude aesthetics from this entirely
[19:34] <andreasn> a lot of bugs are just like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/149380
[19:34] <kwwii> if something is the wrong size, or does not exist, or whatever
[19:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 149380 in update-notifier "blurry reboot / restart icon" [Low,New]
[19:34] <troy_s> kwwii: Triaging then.
[19:34] <kwwii> right
[19:35] <troy_s> kwwii: Seems like the bug hunters 'bug day' work well.
[19:35] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, perhaps we should have a bug day
[19:35] <andreasn> troy_s: is that just a day were you hunt down and fix bugs?
[19:35] <troy_s> andreasn: But for most of those bugs we are aware that it is an incorrect or missing symlink to the SVG -- you are the expert on that naming spec etc.
[19:36] <luisbg> don't you guys need to define what a art bug is?
[19:36] <troy_s> andreasn: At least hunt them down and line them up
[19:36] <andreasn> ok, so we should encourage people of the art team to be part of those bug days. Sounds great
[19:36] <kwwii> Ken: we have https://bugs.launchpad.net/ , in case you haven't seen it
[19:36] <Ken> Why not create a dedicated page, not a wiki but an actual art-bug database. Users specify what type of bug it is and it gets files appropriatly
[19:36] <Ken> n/m, thanks Kwwii
[19:37] <troy_s> Ken: It exists.
[19:37] <nothlit> well, anyone part of the team already gets the bugs
[19:37] <troy_s> Again, more information issues -- the lack of Launchpad knowledge hurts us.
[19:37] <Ken> Still new here/Idiotic
[19:37] <andreasn> kwwii: I know you can cc a person on a bug, can you cc a whole team?
[19:37] <kwwii> Ken: no worries
[19:37] <nothlit> so all we have to do is encourage them to look at them and let them know they are allowed and should do something about it if possible
[19:37] <kwwii> andreasn: indeed
[19:38] <Ken> Could we post a link in an about menu (in the OS itself)?
[19:38] <Ken> "If you find the program looks invcorrect, go to..."
[19:38] <troy_s> andreasn: You can subscribe an art team as teams and people are the same I believe.
[19:39] <kwwii> Ken: traching aesthetical issues as bugs is really hard as it is not a ovting mechanism
[19:39] <kwwii> s/traching/tracking
[19:39] <Ken> true.
[19:39] <troy_s> andreasn: So theoretically it is the same, although I haven't done it.  Perhaps kwwii should register a bug "Art team doesn't fix bugs" lol.
[19:39] <Ken> Yeek, I could see the blogospere having fun with that, Mwaha
[19:40] <kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii to send email to list about but hunting with a bit more information
[19:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii to send email to list about but hunting with a bit more information
[19:40] <kwwii> man, glad we had this meeting, I am getting all the work
[19:40] <luisbg> kwwii, lol
[19:40] <andreasn> hm, perhaps "Also affects project" under Actions?
[19:40] <kwwii> lol
[19:41] <troy_s> kwwii: Unfortunately you are the 'guy'.
[19:41] <kwwii> ok, final topic
[19:41] <kwwii> [TOPIC] icons, what d'ya want to see?
[19:41] <luisbg> kwwii, needs to delegate
[19:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  icons, what d'ya want to see?
[19:41] <luisbg> kwwii needs people to delegate to
[19:41] <Ken> we should just make forms for kwwii to fill out. He should actually make the forms too.
[19:41] <deezid_> less orange
[19:41] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt
[19:41] <kwwii> deezid_: less orange, how do you mean exactly?
[19:41] <Ken> gloss, diagonal lines and blatant use of transparencies.
[19:42] <thorwil> and glow
[19:42] <andreasn> kwwii: regarding community artwork or personal wishes about the main stuff?
[19:42] <Ken> thorwil: Don't forget reflections
[19:42] <troy_s> kwwii: What are we chasing?
[19:42] <luisbg> less glow (color palette is ok now)
[19:42] <luisbg> gloss/glow
[19:43] <deezid_> mhh, don't want to get rid of orange
[19:43] <kwwii> andreasn: we are discussing what we would like to see in hardy
[19:43] <Ken> I think we should add colour to the panels; They look somewhat stale as they are now.
[19:43] <troy_s> These were probably the most elegant looking folders I found out in the wild, but they chase the term 'elegant' and apparently ours is 'clunky'.  http://kde-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=38254&file1=38254-1.png&file2=&file3=&name=Some+more+SVG+Icons
[19:43] <thorwil> troy_s: i suppose ubuntu is chasing its own tail
[19:43] <deezid_> maybe black gloss? :D lol
[19:44] <deezid_> wow
[19:44] <troy_s> thorwil: Lol.  yes.
[19:44] <kwwii> but let's keep it to icons
[19:44] <kwwii> troy_s: indeed, you showed me that (and I stole the idea)
[19:44] <troy_s> kwwii: Another half of the icon question, are we chasing Tango outlines?
[19:45] <kwwii> troy_s: I think that no matter what we still have to look presentable next to the gnome icons (tango style)
[19:45] <Ken> I think tango outlines are a good idea just as they increase visibility.'
[19:45] <deezid_> http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/174/8/c/Noiro_Icons_by_Bobbyperux.jpg
[19:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/174/8/c/Noiro_Icons_by_Bobbyperux.jpg
[19:45] <kwwii> as I doubt we will ever replace them all
[19:45] <troy_s> kwwii: Etc.  That is a rather critical element as I honestly have yet to see a Tango icon that looks elegant and has a craftsman-like detail level.
[19:45] <deezid_> i like those icons
[19:45] <deezid_> :)
[19:45] <andreasn> troy_s: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jakubsteiner/2075422487/
[19:45] <troy_s> kwwii: Well that is unfortnate.
[19:45] <kwwii> yeah, we might need to tweak things here and there
[19:46] <Ken> We should avoid ultra-realistic I think, just as that's the latest "thing"
[19:46] <troy_s> andreasn: More of the duplication of an imitation.
[19:46] <Ken> It will be next years gloss.
[19:46] <kwwii> I think that we will move away from gloss in any case
[19:46] <Ken> I'm thinking a Dilbert theme.
[19:46] <troy_s> andreasn: Leopard's abandoning of their default folder icon in the name of watermarking was a bit of a regression.
[19:47] <Ken> Maybe I should contribute more and cut down on jokes now.
[19:47] <luisbg> Ken, you want to avoid stuff because it's the latest "thing"
[19:47] <luisbg> I don't like being contratrends just to be contratrends
[19:47] <troy_s> andreasn: And the only thing that elevates that icon is the fact that the scale reduces the outline stroke -- which is exactly my point.  Outlines are clunk.
[19:47] <Ken> luisbg: Exactly what I meant
[19:48] <luisbg> I believe tango works, it should be tweaked but not replaced
[19:48] <deezid_> i like the industrial refresh more
[19:48] <deezid_> :)
[19:48] <thorwil> troy_s: i think outlines can help to make icons work on varying backgrounds
[19:48] <Ken> thorwil: I agree
[19:48] <kwwii> I am not a fan of the outlines either although at small sizes you almost cannot live without it
[19:48] <deezid_> no outlines please
[19:48] <troy_s> thorwil: The question is -- is it relevant.  Different background means that quest for the Platonic 'ultimate icon' -- the quest of pure folly.
[19:49] <andreasn> I personally think we should try to work close to upstream as that's were a _lot_ of work is going on there and the coverage is pretty good
[19:49] <kwwii> andreasn: agreed
[19:49] <kwwii> we
[19:49] <kwwii> erm
[19:49] <troy_s> andreasn: Then our aesthetic is once again dictated by upstream and that is a bastion of questionable source.
[19:49] <kwwii> we'll be nice and feed you cake
[19:49] <troy_s> anyways, I have said my piece.  -1 on the outlines and Tango clunk aesthetic.
[19:50] <kwwii> I think that we can pull off our own stuff while still being somewhat inline with upstream
[19:50] <Ken> The problem is that the most usable interface is the ugliest.
[19:50] <kwwii> and it might just solve some of our problems by doing so
[19:50] <Ken> The more pretty you go, the less usable it is.
[19:50] <andreasn> troy_s: well, we could try to replace everything, but I need to see a alternative with good coverage of the applications we ship by default
[19:50] <luisbg> Ken, I don't agree
[19:50] <Ken> Outlines look bad, but they do help.
[19:50] <thorwil> Ken: never. emotions impact performance ...
[19:50] <troy_s> andreasn: I am not of the mind that we need to change _everything_.  Get a decent level of penetration to sell the aesthetic decisions.
[19:51]  * _MMA_ reminds kwwii about the "What release are we working toward?" question.
[19:51] <troy_s> andreasn: The quest for 'finished design' is weighed out with the very real fact that design will _never_ be finished.
[19:51] <thorwil> there are levels between a clear outline and no outline at all
[19:52] <andreasn> another thing to weight in is that 3rd party apps like mozilla certanly wants a less movable targets on linux platforms
[19:52] <kwwii> _MMA_: ouch forgot the derivative stuff
[19:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Outlines are all about contrast, and there are so many factors in contrast that it becomes extremely complicated.  In the end, either you try for the "It works in all environments" or you don't worry about it and worry more about a singular aesthetic vision.
[19:52] <kwwii> yeah, one good question is the exact timing of the themeing cycles for hardy
[19:52] <troy_s> andreasn:  Sure.  That said, their icons are pretty top shelf and they don't fit in with Tango at all.
[19:52] <_MMA_> kwwii: And what should ultimately be targeted for +1.
[19:53] <troy_s> kwwii: I think this discussion heads down the road of 'territory that is Marks'
[19:53] <andreasn> troy_s: actually they are doing tango/gnome integration for firefox3
[19:53] <kwwii> on one hand we can say that hardy is an LTS release and therefor the first of the new breed or we say that Hardy is the last of the old cycle
[19:53] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, definitely
[19:53] <troy_s> andreasn: Unfortunate, their icons are beautiful as is for Firefox and Thunderbird.
[19:53] <kwwii> I think that we will see that hardy is the last of the old, but do not "mark" my words
[19:54] <andreasn> anyway, any good ideas for icons we want to ship that's not the default? any good community candidates?
[19:54] <Ken> What about going with 2 different icon schemes? One for general purpose and one for OS-usage? Similar to the idea of the glossless icons for panels and such?
[19:54] <deezid_> I think hardy should receive a new design as dapper did before
[19:54] <troy_s> kwwii: It just is going to provoke bike shedding and the very real fact that without key terms and such to work towards, we are going to be hooped.  We can at _least_ evaluate the work against the goal then.
[19:54] <andreasn> I would like to package stripy-icon-theme
[19:54] <kwwii> troy_s: right, this conversation is just supposed to spur ideas, not work towards anything
[19:54] <troy_s> andreasn: Do you have any links to legacy themes that work?
[19:55] <kwwii> andreasn: stripy?
[19:55] <nothlit> Ken: two default icon themes is ridiculous, you choose a sane default and people can customise at will
[19:55] <andreasn> http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/stripy-icon-theme-0.2.tar.bz2
[19:55] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/stripy-icon-theme-0.2.tar.bz2
[19:55] <andreasn> http://bp1.blogger.com/_2o81e3u4ZFU/Rj_ASHcA0GI/AAAAAAAAACA/BHzbrqrpNh8/s1600-h/Schermata.png
[19:55] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bp1.blogger.com/_2o81e3u4ZFU/Rj_ASHcA0GI/AAAAAAAAACA/BHzbrqrpNh8/s1600-h/Schermata.png
[19:55] <troy_s> Ken: Not to mention the amount of work.
[19:55] <kwwii> Ken: we do include several themes, perhaps we can include more or change the set we include
[19:55] <kwwii> oh wow
[19:55] <troy_s> LOL
[19:55] <andreasn> (this would be universe stuff though, it's just so I can learn packaging really :) )
[19:56] <deezid_> OMG
[19:56] <luisbg> that looks like paul smith LOL
[19:56] <kwwii> andreasn: I hope they remeber you by that
[19:56] <thorwil> strpey sure keeps the orange
[19:56] <andreasn> lapo usually advice people not to use those
[19:56] <troy_s> Ok just so we keep some vision, here are the two big boys...
[19:56] <troy_s> http://www.rw-designer.com/res/vista-folder-32.png
[19:56] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.rw-designer.com/res/vista-folder-32.png
[19:56] <troy_s> that's vista
[19:56] <troy_s> http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7207/picture1vn2.png
[19:56] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7207/picture1vn2.png
[19:57] <troy_s> there is leopard.
[19:57] <troy_s> leopard very clearly made a move away from their other icon in the name of watermarking.
[19:57] <kwwii> well, I do not like the thing on it's side and the leopard ones look freaky to me
[19:57] <troy_s> lol
[19:57] <troy_s> kwwii: I agree...
[19:57] <nothlit> leopard visually changed a lot of things for the sake of change unfortunately
[19:57] <deezid_> KDE4's folder icons look somehow similar to Leopards'
[19:58] <kwwii> lol, yeah, they have been stealing from us oxygen guys
[19:58] <troy_s> nothlit: I disagree -- they have tried to add value -- the watermarking for example so you can 'see' your folder stuff.
[19:58] <deezid_> nope
[19:58] <andreasn> kwwii: such ripoffs :)
[19:58] <deezid_> the other way
[19:58] <deezid_> ^^
[19:58] <troy_s> lol
[19:58] <deezid_> lol
[19:58] <luisbg> heh
[19:58] <kwwii> the water-marking itself is kinda neat
[19:58] <andreasn> so, these watermarks, does they work well in finder etc?
[19:59] <thorwil> but requires large size
[19:59] <troy_s> kwwii: Plus one, minus six on the garbage frontal folder look though.
[19:59] <Ken> We should probably have the folders open to the left...
[19:59] <kwwii> but the way they changed a couple of icons so that they no longer fit with the whole is nasty
[19:59] <troy_s> andreasn: I don't think they care.
[19:59] <andreasn> or does it only work in coverflow?
[19:59] <troy_s> kwwii: the 'whole' is on the move
[19:59] <thorwil> http://www.indiehig.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/shape.png
[19:59] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.indiehig.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/shape.png
[19:59] <troy_s> kwwii: ever changing -- it is a bridging release for certain.
[19:59] <Ken> Why would we watermark folders though? We have emblems.
[19:59] <kwwii> yeah
[19:59] <deezid_> yupp
[20:00] <kwwii> we could change the emblem stuff to that pretty easy; I would guess
[20:00] <kwwii> but it would make it hard to have more than one
[20:00] <troy_s> Ken: I posted those two links to illustrate the direction of the two main players.  Not question the watermark etc discussion -- it isn't relevant to us.
[20:00] <luisbg> yeap
[20:00] <troy_s> kwwii: Emblems-- on that note,
[20:00] <nothlit> troy_s: the dock, folder icons etc have been illustrated to detract from usability/visibility, break logic and visual completeness from what i've seen of critical reception
[20:00] <nothlit> troy_s: i have no direct experience with it though
[20:01] <troy_s> kwwii: IF we get in the lovely monochromatic glyphs for the systray etc (as per you and andreasn 's samples) perhaps we need to consider similar etching on the emblems?
[20:01] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was wondering how well that would work
[20:01] <kwwii> perhaps we could color code them a bit
[20:01] <Ken> troy_s: That would bring amazing continuity
[20:01] <troy_s> nothlit: Bridging release.  The entire move is jettisonning the now decrepit glossy shiny bits and moving towards... well paper to start :)
[20:02] <troy_s> andreasn: Is there any upstream work to have action / colour association in place?
[20:02] <kwwii> as time is running out, let's hit the last topic and be off for tonight
[20:02] <troy_s> kwwii:  Unfortunately, it is at least on the map as the overall presentation is going to be impacted by those emblems.
[20:03] <kwwii> we can discuss this more in a bit or in another channel, ok?
[20:03] <andreasn> troy_s: well, we are trying to use distinct colors on the emblems. There have been discussions about ditching the emblem system and use more regular tags instead
[20:03] <troy_s> andreasn: Wow.  Tags that have associated images?  That is damn innovative!
[20:03] <Ken> I like emblems, they work well for all I can see.
[20:03] <Ken> lol
[20:03] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, a lot hands on that...I should probably get some stuff together about the emblem ide
[20:04] <kwwii> ok, last topic
[20:04] <andreasn> troy_s: no, more like no images, just text-tags, nothing concrete at all really though
[20:04] <kwwii> [TOPIC] Variant Artwork
[20:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Variant Artwork
[20:04] <nothlit> yeah but things like the loss of silhouette, color coding, the extremely bright but indescernible dock light, significantly impact the interaction, not to mention doubled shadows with incorrect angles for flash's sake etc
[20:04] <kwwii> we need to keep the communication up about the other variants which need help
[20:04] <luisbg> more communication is key
[20:05] <kwwii> with most of them you are free to play a lot more than you can with the ubuntu work
[20:05] <troy_s> kwwii: Lol.
[20:05] <kwwii> _MMA_ would like all the help he can get with ubuntu-studio
[20:05] <kwwii> and I would love to see more people step up and help kubuntu
[20:05] <andreasn> so, have there any of interest in kubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntustudio etc from newcomers?
[20:05]  * _MMA_ whistles.
[20:05] <nothlit> i think its only the official derivatives that lack contribution funnily enough
[20:05] <kwwii> andreasn: yes, to an extent
[20:05]  * luisbg looks at _MMA_ 
[20:06] <kwwii> nothlit: yeah, pretty much
[20:06] <luisbg> nothlit, maybe derivatives don't need contribution
[20:06] <troy_s> andreasn: I think the interest is met with the very real fact that every single distribution has 'ideas' as to what is "Right(TM)"
[20:06] <Ken> Kubuntu, maby. Just because KDE programs are present on Ubuntu.
[20:06] <luisbg> troy_s, yes but all distros should work together
[20:06] <andreasn> troy_s: how do you mean?
[20:06] <luisbg> maybe we have different color palletes but we share some ideas
[20:06] <luisbg> and we can take benefit from each other's work
[20:07] <_MMA_> +1
[20:07] <kwwii> a lot of the work could be done together while still achieving different goals
[20:07] <troy_s> andreasn: Creatively, it is a stifling environment and no one with ability will engage that climate.
[20:07] <_MMA_> (where the style fits of coarse)
[20:07] <_MMA_> *course
[20:07] <kwwii> working together on easing the themeing and sharing information is in any case a good idea
[20:08] <troy_s> andreasn: Not to mention the learning pains that Ubuntu is having with the collision between 'the way we do things' with the 'way things might want to be considered'.
[20:09] <kwwii> maybe we shoud have progress reports from each variant on a schedule
[20:09] <kwwii> including ubuntu
[20:09] <luisbg> kwwii, +1
[20:09] <kwwii> so we know where we stand at any given time
[20:09] <luisbg> and a list of tasks pending too
[20:09] <andreasn> kwwii: sounds like a good idea, more concrete on "where we are"
[20:09] <kwwii> andreasn: exactly
[20:09]  * _MMA_ cringes at the thought of more "reports".
[20:09] <thorwil> "progress or progress reports. choose one" :)
[20:09] <troy_s> _MMA_: +1
[20:10] <Ken> We can have kwwii fill out the reports, he's doing everything else
[20:10] <_MMA_> lol
[20:10] <kwwii> I think that at least on a monthly basis it would not be too much work
[20:10] <kwwii> I can collect the info and send the email, wiki page, etc
[20:10] <andreasn> perhaps in connection with the monthly art meetings
[20:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well isnt that covered in that new "Teams Report" thing that just happened?
[20:11] <luisbg> wiki based stuff is good, updated every now and then is simple and effective
[20:11]  * _MMA_ digs for a link.
[20:11] <kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii to look into better monthly reporting from various art teams
[20:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii to look into better monthly reporting from various art teams
[20:11]  * luisbg wait for _MMA_ as he does bring a good point
[20:11] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, but this would just be about artwork
[20:11] <luisbg> those team reports can be used for both
[20:11] <kwwii> so it would help me fill out that page which I already have to do
[20:12] <kwwii> (UNLESS SOMEONE WANTS TO HELP)
[20:12] <andreasn> does the different art teams have separate mailing lists? or does the discussion take place mostly on the ubuntu-dev mailing list etc?
[20:12] <andreasn> kwwii: I can give you a hand with that
[20:12] <kwwii> andreasn: it all takes place on various lists
[20:12] <luisbg> kwwii, what type of help... I'm willing (a little bit bored lately)
[20:12] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, but it where I would personally put our changes in status about the art. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
[20:12] <troy_s> andreasn: Since the 'community' is sooooo small, it makes sense to try and keep everything centralized to interested parties?
[20:13] <kwwii> troy_s: but it would not hurt to share info
[20:13] <kwwii> just basic stuff at first
[20:13] <troy_s> kwwii: Oh I am not at all against sharing info -- I was thinking that keeping everything art related on the art mailing list is quite a GoodThing(TM)
[20:13] <andreasn> troy_s: I was mostly thinking about where to direct people who "wanting to help out somewhere"
[20:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Our audience is rather small (well aside from the pop-in's and deactive types that bombard my email box every day)
[20:14] <kwwii> luisbg, andreasn: we need to identify all the lists/people involved in the different teams and talk to them
[20:14] <andreasn> troy_s: I like that idea
[20:14] <troy_s> andreasn: Yeah I would go +1 for the mailing list.
[20:14] <_MMA_> troy_s: +1 Its a reason Ive had more a presence there and in the IRC channel.
[20:14] <luisbg> kwwii, let's identify yes
[20:14] <troy_s> andreasn: Hell... the art / design related folks are _soooooo_ fractured in FOSS as it is.
[20:14] <luisbg> kwwii, how?
[20:14] <andreasn> troy_s: totally :)
[20:14] <troy_s> _MMA_: And it has had an impact at least in showing solidarity.
[20:14] <kwwii> luisbg: look around, send emails, etc
[20:15] <luisbg> kwwii, if you tell me which people in what teams... I'm on it
[20:15] <luisbg> kwwii, art people in all distros?
[20:15] <kwwii> then we need to start simply getting info
[20:15] <kwwii> luisbg: any related to ubuntu, yes
[20:15] <luisbg> kwwii, ok, I put that task on myself
[20:15] <troy_s> andreasn: If we can somehow harness Launchpad better we might even end off in a more strengthened position.
[20:16] <luisbg> if it's ok with everybody off course
[20:16] <troy_s> kwwii: So... is it safe to say that perhaps a bzr repo with the etched icons might be a good point to get some real work done?
[20:17] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely
[20:17] <troy_s> andreasn: You would be able to etch your shapes easily from your mock eh?
[20:17] <luisbg> bzr +1
[20:17] <luisbg> with mergeable branches for the new stuff
[20:18] <troy_s> ok out boys... work to do.
[20:18] <deezid_> sorry, what does bzr mean?
[20:18] <andreasn> troy_s: yeah, I can upload whatever I have
[20:18] <troy_s> (and girls hopefully)
[20:18] <luisbg> deezid_, it's a control version system
[20:18] <deezid_> ok
[20:18] <mgunes> hi all
[20:18] <kwwii> right, I guess the meeting is finished
[20:18] <luisbg> deezid_, like cvs or svn, but better ;)
[20:18] <kwwii> anyone have anything else?
[20:18] <andreasn> next meeting, when?
[20:18] <troy_s> andreasn: You and I can perhaps start up a bzr repo for some windeco buttons and the etching then.  I'll pm you in a while.
[20:18] <deezid_> thx
[20:18] <kwwii> andreasn: the next meeting will be in the first week of January
[20:19] <nothlit> if we want help with those make a quick tutorial with the colour ##'s about modifying the existing tango silhouettes
[20:19] <Ken> What will be covered?
[20:19] <kwwii> but there might be another meeting called sooner than that to explain the plans
[20:19] <derQ> where can we find a protocol of this meeting?
[20:19] <andreasn> troy_s: I have to leave for a party pretty soon, so if you want to send a e-mail to andreas@andreasn.se that might be better
[20:19] <kwwii> me might want to have it in two weeks this time
[20:19] <kwwii> ideas?
[20:19] <nothlit> do we have any status updates on the backlit glass concept? in terms of thematically/emotionally?
[20:19] <andreasn> kwwii: well, I guess we can bring that up on the mailing list
[20:19] <deezid_> get rid of the top bar? :D
[20:19] <deezid_> lol
[20:19] <kwwii> nothlit: I like it, yeah
[20:19] <kwwii> andreasn: right
[20:20] <andreasn> kwwii: if/when we're going with a extra meeting
[20:20] <kwwii> ok, then for now we are done
[20:20] <luisbg> deezid_, in ubuntu studio we got rid of the bottom bar and more
[20:20] <kwwii> #endmeeting
[20:20] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:20.
[20:20] <Ken> Backlit glass? Is there a link to an example?
[20:20] <deezid_> wiw
[20:20] <deezid_> wow
[20:20] <deezid_> ok
[20:20] <andreasn> ok, take care everyone!
[20:20] <andreasn> thanks for a good meeting
[20:20] <kwwii> yeah, thanks all
[20:20] <kwwii> great stuff
[20:20] <luisbg> =)
[20:20] <Ken> Glad I could spllu bad ideas for the good ones to shine through. :P
[20:21] <nothlit> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign
[20:21] <mgunes> kwwii, could you post the log url from mootbot?
[20:21]  * mgunes got the world clock wrong
[20:21] <nothlit> Ken*
[20:21] <nothlit> oh, no wonder he left
[20:22] <kwwii> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[20:22] <kwwii> nothlit: yeah?
[20:23] <kwwii> ahh
[20:23] <thorwil> backlit glass bot no gloss?
[20:23] <kwwii> right
[20:23] <kwwii> and /me is out
[20:23] <deezid_> example?
[20:23] <deezid_> mhh
[20:23] <kwwii> move to #ubuntu-artwork
[20:24] <nothlit> gloss is entirely outdated and overdone, there is nothing new to be tried there