=== Nightrose_ is now known as Nightrose [02:44] kwwii: ping, how can you print the leaflet so that the gradients aren't all messed up and so that the text at the bottom is legible? === _czessi is now known as Czessi [06:08] ryanakca: erm, not sure what you mean [08:23] <_StefanS_> morning [08:29] morning! === \sh_away is now known as \sh [08:59] ok, it's taken me 3 days but I *think* I've finally got python-kde4 packaged [09:01] hello all [09:02] Riddell, ping [09:02] hey glatzor_ =) [09:07] hey luisbg_! [09:07] glatzor_, how is all going? === glatzor_ is now known as glatzor [09:08] luisbg_: you want to write a fancy cairo widget? [09:08] yeeiiii [09:08] cairo is fun! [09:08] and sincerely... the tasks in your hand for now have been very big and hard to attack [09:08] unless you know a lot of the code [09:09] luisbg_: I haven't used cairo yet, so it would take me some time to get something useful [09:09] and I feel bad [09:09] since I commited to help you and I haven't [09:09] hi where can i find ~/.bashrc file??? is present by default or should we create it??? [09:09] luisbg_: I know. I also had a bad feeling about this [09:09] kaankee, it should be there by default [09:09] glatzor, are you comfortable with the xrandr stuff now? [09:09] luisbg_: but the capplet and the widget are good places to work on [09:09] kaankee: I've answered that, and this isn't a support channel [09:10] #kubuntu is [09:10] glatzor, we can make a nice agreement then [09:10] I can do the capplet and widget and you can use your time more usefully in the xrandr code [09:10] as you are more used to it [09:10] and you would have to learn cairo anyway [09:13] luisbg_: I would like to have the final decision on user interface issues. [09:13] luisbg_: if you can life with this. [09:14] luisbg_: Have you already looked at the exisiting code? [09:14] glatzor, yes, I looked at it last night [09:14] luisbg_: and I would like to move away from launchpad, becuase of its proprietary nature [09:15] luisbg_: so I would host the main branch on my server or somewhere else and launchpad would only have got a mirrored one [09:15] glatzor, I like launchpad but it is your call... where do you want to move it? [09:15] ahhh ok [09:16] luisbg_: plus the individual ones. [09:16] send me an email with the new bzr address [09:16] luisbg_: you can still use the one at launchpad. I will just change it from hosted to mirrored [09:16] yes, I understand [09:17] want to take this to a PM? [09:17] luisbg_: When starting the project I had once again looked at all the licenses. And then I came across the GPL3 [09:17] So since I do this in my part time I can do things the "right" way [09:17] =) [09:17] cool [09:18] luisbg_: we could also use jabber [09:18] let me open it [09:18] sebi at glatzor de === Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee [09:44] luisbg_: hi [09:44] stdin: really?! [09:44] Riddell: I think so :) [09:44] wow [09:45] haven't installed it (haven't upgraded to gutsy yet), but the debs I have look ok [09:46] you can dget it to have a look http://stdin.me.uk/python-kde4/python-kde4_3.92.0~svn20071201-0ubuntu1.dsc [09:47] and if you want the debs, I can put them somewhere too (21MB so it'll take a while) [09:47] *22MB [09:49] stdin: where did you get that orig tar from? [09:49] svn [09:49] couldn't find an actual tar.gz [09:49] no I don't think there is one, except kdebindings [09:54] hey, Riddell! [09:54] morning stdin [09:54] morning Serega too [10:16] stdin: this is a long compile [10:17] Riddell: yeah, took about 3 hours on my 2.8GHz 1.5GB RAM PC [10:17] Riddell, I sent you an email like 2 hours ago [10:20] Riddell: you can try downloading the debs (built in a hardy pbuilder) from http://stdin.me.uk/python-kde4/ but that's on my home connection so it'll be a slow download [10:21] probably quicker than building tho :p [10:22] * Riddell replies to luisbg_ [10:22] Riddell, =) thanks [10:41] Riddell, I hate it when just after clicking send... you see a grammatical error in the written email [10:41] Riddell, "suggest me" should say "suggested me" [10:48] hey [10:48] Hobbsee: hi ! have an idea why kpar2 was rejected this time ? [10:48] Tonio_: nope. i didn't do it [10:49] Tonio_: did u-a@l.u.c say anything about it? [10:49] Tonio_: it's in New queue [10:49] Rejected: [10:49] None [10:49] Riddell: bah I receive an email this morning saying it was rejected [10:49] Riddell: was NEWed yesterday [10:50] it's definately still in New queue [10:50] weird.... [10:50] Riddell: oki, let's wait then ;) [10:51] Riddell: can I read the new queue somewhere ir is that only accessible to you and Hobbsee ? that would avoid stupid questions next time :) [10:51] new queue is public, afaik [10:52] Hobbsee: URL ? [10:52] KubuntuFiles knows [10:53] http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/queue/hardy/new/ [10:54] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+queue?batch=500 === meduxa is now known as toscalix [11:08] stdin: make[3]: *** No rule to make target `/usr/include/qt4/Qt/qtimer.h', needed by `CMakeFiles/python_module_PyKDE4_kio.dir/sip/kio/sipkiopart1.o'. Stop. [11:08] arg [11:08] hmm [11:09] erm, I don't have libqt4-dev installed [11:09] but it's in the build-dep [11:09] ahh, good :) [11:10] hmm, it must have been removed by one of the other compiles I'm doing [11:10] lets see if debuild -nc resumes where it broke [11:11] I think it runs debian/rules clean [11:11] -nc doesn't [11:11] ahh, yes [11:11] so if the build system has any intelligence, it'll just pick up where it broke [11:12] yep, seems to do the job [11:12] good, I had to do "sudo pbuilder --login" so it didn't remove everything after a fail :p [11:13] waiting 3 hours to find out you made a typo is not fun [11:15] I only use pbuilder for a final check, while working on the package I just run debuild locally [11:16] I don't have a hardy install, so I didn't have much choice [11:16] stdin: use a chroot [11:16] pbuilder is a chroot ;) [11:16] sure but it doesn't let you make incremental changes [11:17] that's why I did --login [11:17] mkdir hardychroot; sudo debootstrap --variant=buildd hardy hardychroot/ [11:17] oh, I see, that could work [11:17] it was just the quickest thing at the time, I'm planning to get a hardy install on another partition soon [11:21] * _buz wonders why hardy alpha 1 is not mentioned on kubuntu.org [11:23] a good question _buz === _buz is now known as buz [11:25] * buz downloads hardy, will then figure out if i can install it without rebooting :P [11:32] buz: added to kubuntu.org, pending cache update, thanks [11:32] hows the state of alpha1? will it overwrite existing partitions :P [11:32] it'll eat your hard drive. it's a new feature. [11:33] stdin: packages compiled, all seems to work [11:33] a fabulously good first package [11:33] great :) [11:33] stdin: however, python is more complex than that I'm afraid [11:33] the whole python-central thing ought to be used, although I've never quite got my head round it [11:34] but it needs to create .pyc files for .py files during package install [11:34] I've never used python so it's all completely new for me [11:35] kdebindings seems to use python-support instead of python-central [11:35] I think it built some (3) .pyc files, just didn't install them [11:35] if those are all that's needed then it should be simple to add them [11:36] Hobbsee: do you know if there's any python expertese within motu? [11:37] Riddell: erm, there should be some. [11:37] ask in -motu [11:42] stdin: take a look at man dh_pycentral [11:42] that needs to be called at some point [11:43] ok [11:44] not entirely sure when though [11:44] it'll move about where files are [12:15] nixternal: fancy taking a look at that eee dot article sometime? [12:15] nixternal: also ping about Packaging Day [12:29] * stdin is confused [12:29] stdin: packaging python can do that [12:29] stdin: where did you get to? [12:30] not far, I'm trying to figure out how/where to call dh_pycentral [12:30] it's using the cdbs rules from the KDE4 packages so I can't tell [12:31] I even tried including /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk but no luck [12:32] stdin: that's for the distutils native build system of python [12:32] we're using cmake so it'll just break things [12:32] yeah, I found that out :p [12:35] stdin: hmm, no quick answer on #ubuntu-devel asking for documentation [12:36] it's just finding where to put the command in [12:36] stdin: pyc is not necessarily needed to run something, it just speeds up as its compiled to some bytecode already [12:38] buz: sure, but it's needed by debian policy and it's just good practice for packaging to do the hard bits so users don't have to [12:38] ack [12:43] stdin: seems to be binary-install according to /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk [12:45] I'll try it === _czessi is now known as Czessi [13:16] ok, I think that worked [13:17] stdin: what does it do? [13:17] as far as I can see, it just includes the .pyc files [13:18] not sure why it seems to depend on kde-icons-oxygen though :p [13:21] right, same version/revision number right now, but the files in http://stdin.me.uk/python-kde4/ are updated [13:25] and it seems kde4.py and pykdeuic4.py wern't installed before, fixed that [13:27] hmm, now that strange... just tried "fakeroot debian/binary |grep pycentral" and got nothing so it isn't actually being run.. [13:34] stdin: you added it to "binary-install/$(DEB_SOURCE_PACKAGE)-doc-html" [13:35] which is only run for -doc-html packages, which isn't in this [13:35] uhh, so I did [13:35] stdin: also don't add it to kde.mk, that's supposed to be the same over all packages [13:35] add it to binary-install:: in debian/rules [13:43] still don't see it actually being called [13:47] * Riddell tries [13:52] stdin: common-install-arch:: seems to do something [13:55] trying it now [13:56] but not actually very much [13:58] yeah, it got called but I can't tell what it did [14:03] /usr/lib/kde4/share/kde4/apps/pykde4/ is a stange place for python modules to be [14:04] oi oi Riddell [14:05] with a prefix of "/usr/lib/kde4" that's where they get installed, so who knows [14:05] Riddell: taking a look at the eee article, and what is packaging day? [14:08] nixternal: packaging day is a jono inspired evening of talks on kubuntu (name isn't final) [14:08] nixternal: thursday 13th, 15UTC to 19UTC [14:09] nixternal: it's been suggested we have a short talk on documentation [14:10] of which you would be the likely candidate [14:10] also volunteers for a packaging tutorial welcome [14:10] * Riddell eyes up stdin [14:10] 15UTC to 19UTC == 09:00 to 13:00, which means I am at school during those times [14:15] nixternal: no lunch break? [14:16] 10 minutes in between classes [14:17] you must get hungry by the end of the day [14:17] stdin: if I run "dh_pycentral -a" from the command line that does stuff [14:17] stdin: makes debian/python-kde4.postinst.debhelper [14:17] and debian/python-kde4/usr/share/pycentral/ [14:18] I'll try adding -a to the command in debian/rules, see what happens [14:18] I think common-install-arch:: is run too soon [14:18] needs to be run after install is done [14:19] maybe common-binary-post-install:: [14:20] ok, I'll try that one [14:22] Riddell: the eee pc story is good, go ahead and submit or were there any changes you noticed? [14:22] nixternal: I've not looked at it at all [14:22] nixternal: could you add next kubuntu meeting 23utc on wed 12th [14:22] yup [14:23] wo0t, I will be at that meeting!! [14:24] nixternal: if you've proofread it go ahead and publish (do the repost, add, approve thing) [14:24] nixternal: I note the title isn't in title case [14:27] stdin: ah hah common-binary-post-install-arch:: seems to work [14:27] I reposted it, and it didn't pick up the repost [14:28] nixternal: repost within admin interface, then scroll down to bottom and click "Ad" [14:29] Add [14:29] repost is a two step thing (it likes to be annoying) [14:30] I did that, it isn't reposting the date [14:32] kwwii: nevermind, I figured it out ;) [14:32] Riddell: yep that seems to do the job [14:33] kwwii: I was trying to print the promo leaflet you had made up, but the gradients at the bottem alway covered/hid the text... [14:33] * ryanakca has yet another snow day :D [14:35] stdin: remaining issue is why the files are in /usr/lib/kde4/share/kde4/apps/pykde4/ and not a normal python directory [14:36] stdin: could you ask on the mailing list about that? [14:36] python won't fine them where they are [14:38] I can see why they'd be in /usr/lib/kde4 (that's the prefix for kde4) [14:38] but the .py files should be in something like $prefix/share/pycentral/python-kde4 ? [14:38] but I don't see any reason for $prefix/share/kde4/apps/pykde4/ [14:39] stdin: well /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/PyKDE4/, it's a debian/ubuntu thing to put them in $prefix/share/pycentral/ [14:39] ahh, I was just looking at the -kde3 package for comparison [14:40] stdin: also you can try moving this packaging to the kdebindings tar if you want [14:40] everyone has been putting off packaging that but may as well start somewhere and python is somewhere [14:43] maybe after my brain starts working again, I think it reached it limit === marcel__ is now known as marcel [14:45] I need to change the debian/copyright file, that's from -kde3 [14:46] kubuntu meeting added to the fridge, off to school I go [14:47] stdin: cdbs python packaging can do that to you :) [14:57] hi dennisv [14:59] hi Riddell [15:01] what's up [15:02] looking for someone to do a packaging tutorial [15:02] currently thinking of stdin, apachelogger_ or jpatrick [15:09] Riddell: I can get the file in the right directory for now http://stdin.pastebin.com/d4967f58f [15:09] and please don't make me give a talk :p [15:09] I have no idea how to [15:09] stdin: how did you manage to move the files? [15:10] put "usr/lib/kde4/share/kde4/apps/pykde4/* /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/PyKDE4/" in debian/python-kde4.install [15:10] then dh_pycentral moves them to the right place after [15:12] (though I should take the leading slash off /usr) [15:12] (brb) [15:26] why don't they understand, I don't want a new phone with 250 free minuets and 500 txts per week... :p [15:27] why not? :P [15:27] thye offering to pay? [15:28] I don't want a contract, I can barely afford pay-as-you-go [15:29] ahh, yes, that kind of sucks [15:30] they do make it hard to buy a cheap phone with no lock [15:31] some of them can be unlocked easily enough [15:50] Heya === _buz is now known as buz [15:58] stdin: have you considered packaging okular? [15:58] buz: haven't thought about it [15:59] isn't there already a package though? [15:59] it's a pretty neat these days ;) [15:59] yeah but it wont install [15:59] http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/46698/ [15:59] maybe you should bug the maintainer ;) [16:00] buz: okular-kde4 is the package [16:00] oh [16:00] should be in gutsy-backports and hardy [16:01] pulling it from stdin's ppa :P [16:01] so maybe you did think to package it after all, stdin [16:01] due to my well thought out version numbers... [16:01] buz: yeah, it's part of kdegraphics-kde4 (apparently) [16:02] woah neat [16:04] it comes up without any hitch or ENV monkeying in a kde3 session [16:04] and its incredibly fast [16:04] yeah, that's all me :p [16:13] http://skim-app.sourceforge.net/ this for kde would be killer [16:13] okular is sort of halfway there [16:24] has anybody noticed that alt-tabbing through the application list in compiz causes the window decorator to crash? (gutsy) [16:27] Fade: kde-window-decorator? [16:29] well, I am running in kubuntu [16:29] i'm not sure how compiz interacts with kde at that level. [16:29] I was just trying to describe what happens. all the window decorations disappear leaving the application window behind. [16:30] kde-window-decorator is generally buggy, although I've not seen that problem [16:35] i'm not sure how to debug the situation running 'compiz --replace' brings back the window frames. === \sh is now known as \sh_away [17:13] Riddell: can you please take a look at bug 161835 [17:13] Launchpad bug 161835 in contactsmenu "[Package Removal Request] contactsmenu should be removed from hardy" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161835 [17:15] apachelogger_: what do you want me to do with it? [17:16] Riddell: process :P [17:18] meh, my archive day is tomorrow [17:18] hehe [17:18] Riddell: can you put it on your todo then? [17:18] * apachelogger_ hates contactsmenu [17:18] shouldn't have packaged it in the frist place [17:23] apachelogger_: sure, all ubuntu-archive bugs will be on my todo [17:25] ^_^ [17:26] Riddell: I mean with super high priority mark ;-) [17:26] apachelogger_: it's scribbled on the bit of paper on my desk with big letters [17:27] hooray :D [17:27] * apachelogger_ needs to send Riddell some cookies [17:45] anyone heard of mayeco? [17:46] apachelogger_: ^^ ? [17:46] he says he wants to be an amarok developer on his wiki page [17:48] still? [17:49] I mean he still wants to do that :D [17:49] Riddell: not heard of him yet but if you see him please send him my way ;-) [17:49] Ah, I thought apachelogger [17:49] right [17:49] nah [17:49] Nightrose is the one with the people skills [17:50] ;-) [17:59] * Nightrose msged him [18:08] hola pgquiles [18:08] yo coreymon77 [18:09] hey [18:09] Riddell: hi [18:13] hi boys and girls :) [18:45] i requested to backport psi 0.11 for feisty https://bugs.launchpad.net/feisty-backports/+bug/173532 and the libqca2-dev, which is a dependency for psi 0.11 https://bugs.launchpad.net/feisty-backports/+bug/173719 , someone told me, i can ask imbrandon or ScottK to take a look at it, i hope i did the request in the right way. [18:45] Launchpad bug 173532 in feisty-backports "please backport psi 0.11" [Undecided,New] [18:45] bdgraue: Did you test that it works in Feisty? [18:45] if there is anything else i can do, it would be a pleasure for me to help [18:45] ScottK: no, i didn't [18:47] bdgraue: That's the next step. You can look at that using the PREVU tool if you don't already know how to build the packages on Feisty. [18:48] ScottK: i will try to do that, if it work, should i add it to the report? [18:48] Yes and then set it to confirmed for status. [19:27] ScottK: i failed to build psi 0.11 with prevu, i added the buildlog to https://bugs.launchpad.net/feisty-backports/+bug/173532 [19:27] Launchpad bug 173532 in feisty-backports "please backport psi 0.11" [Undecided,New] [19:27] bdgraue: Looking. [19:29] bdgraue: Bad news is that means it will need a source backport which are significantly discouraged. I'd suggest asking jdong to look into it. [19:30] ScottK: where can i find jdong to ask [19:32] bdgraue: #ubuntu-motu [19:32] thx [20:25] Hey everyone, I got one question: Does anybody of you guys know about the special keys you support within XFree86?? I am talking about e.g XF86AudioMute... I have already asked in the "normal" but I don't get help there... [20:26] we might, try asking [20:27] Well, with a "clean" install of kubuntu multimedia keys, e.g. keycode 160 are mapped to keys, e.g. XF86AudioMute. [20:29] Theses keys do stuff when they are pressed. e.g. lower the volume. I want to change the behaviour of the keys, but I don't know how and noone seems to know how these keys work and where you tell them to do something.. [20:29] grep XF86AudioMute /usr/share/apps/kxkb/ubuntu.xmodmap [20:29] keycode 160 = XF86AudioMute [20:29] should be [20:29] do you have that file and /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80ubuntu-xmodmap ? [20:30] I only found the definitions, or I think I did. ( /usr/share/X11/XKeysymDB ) [20:31] do you have /usr/share/apps/kxkb/ubuntu.xmodmap and /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80ubuntu-xmodmap [20:32] I have both of them.. So that's where the definitions of the keycodes are... [20:33] But where is written what they do when they are pressed?? [20:35] ah, Lure. X2B is wondering about keycodes [20:36] X2B: if you run xev and press the button you can see if it's really registered as XF86AudioMute [20:36] X2B: kmilo should pick up the key press and pass it to kmix [20:37] hi Riddell [20:37] X2B: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuLaptopKeycodes has some bacground [20:40] Well, my problem is this: You guys had the idea to map the keycodes 160, 174 and 176 to actions related to changing audio volume / mute audio. This sort of backfires with my system: I got a surround system with 3 audio jacks. If the action is triggered, only the volume of the front speakres is reduced. The rear speakers stay the same. As you can certainly guess, this is not what I expect or what I want the system to do... I don't mean to [20:40] criticise you, but I want to change the settings to fit my system. === \sh_away is now known as \sh [20:46] Question: Did you hear what I said 6 minutes ago? [20:47] X2B: yes, I understand what you mean [20:47] Riddell: flags for tork and ktorrent are under the Creative Commons License (author "needs to update site") [20:48] X2B: probably we would need to change kmilo config to be able to select channel [20:48] jpatrick: awooga (although not ideal since debian don't do CC, but good enough for us) [20:48] Riddell: I'd love to do a packaging talk, but I'm unavabile until 17UTC onwards [20:49] jpatrick: well we have slots at 17UTC and 18UTC [20:50] well, just one question for now: How could I fix that issue with my system? I can't see any config file/ anyway to change this in KControl. [20:51] X2B: kmilo would need to be patched to support this [20:51] X2B: so you would like to make it configurable (like front/back/master)? [20:51] Riddell: ah, seems I don't have school on that day, fit me in at any time [20:51] ok, now I see the magnitude of the problem :) [20:51] Lure: can't you use khotkeys to give one key multiple functions? [20:52] jpatrick: want to kick things off at 15UTC then? [20:52] fdoving: probably it could be used, not sure if there are appropriate dcop calls to achieve what X2B wants === \sh is now known as \sh_away [20:52] Lure: some dcop calls to kmix to increase/decrease the rest of the channels? [20:53] fdoving: yes [20:53] I'm surprised that setMasterMute doesn't mute all channels [20:53] * Lure is under kde4, so cannot check now [20:54] Riddell: well, is it packaging in general or for kubuntu? [20:54] Riddell: I think kmix is a bit buggy in kde3 [20:54] ah kubuntu pkgs [20:54] jpatrick: generally for KDE bits [20:56] So, I am looking at the source within kdeutils/kmilo/generic now... [20:56] * jpatrick wonders what to talk about [20:56] X2B: you don't need to do that. [20:56] jpatrick: the contents of a debian/ dir [20:56] jpatrick: pick a simple app or widget theme or something and take people through packaging [20:57] Riddell: ok, I'm in for kicking off [20:58] well, I guess that I could write a small patch to do the trick... [20:58] jpatrick: package QLandkarte (hint: there is one package on getdeb) ;-) [20:58] Lure: you guys are all so mean to Kmos ;) [20:58] X2B: or you could use khotkeys to execute a dcop call to kmix to increase/decrease the rest of the channels needed. [20:59] jpatrick: Kmos? [20:59] It is after all all done with DCOP calls... But that solution would be specific to my problem... [20:59] Lure: guy from getdeb [21:00] jpatrick: ok, didn't even know that getdeb is one-person project [21:00] Lure: long story, but I think he's the one behind the site [21:02] jpatrick: I recall the thread about getdeb integration and I still do not get it why this does not merge better into universe [21:03] He works on getdeb, but isn't the founder/main person. [21:03] jpatrick: you rock [21:03] Lure: packages in universe have to have "quality packaging" iirc [21:03] That's lamego [21:03] We've asked lamego several times to work within Ubuntu and he basically says it's to much work to package stuff correctly. [21:06] X2B: did you try to change master channel in kmix - I think kmilo should use master channel [21:06] Does libxine1 really need to depend on libxine1-gnome? Upgrading wants to pull in have of gnome with it... [21:07] steveire: yep [21:07] jpatrick: Why? [21:07] steveire: ask siretart [21:17] hi alltogether. there seems to be no hardy alpha feedback site, although it is linked in the announcement...why that? :D [21:18] blizzzek: hello! it's right at the buttom of the page: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu [21:19] ah, I see, it doesn't exist, could you possibly create it? [21:20] jpatrick: the link is there, but the link goes to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu/Feedback and this site does not exist [21:20] * blizzzek is too slow [21:21] * jpatrick is too fast [21:21] ;) [21:21] erm... i can try to create it 8) [21:23] I can help ;) [21:24] blizzzek, neversfelde: you can use https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Herd1/Kubuntu/Feedback as a base [21:24] thx [21:24] jpatrick: thx [21:24] np [21:25] neversfelde: thx as well [21:30] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha1/Kubuntu/Feedback [21:30] is it ok? [21:31] looks good === apachelogger__ is now known as apachelogger [22:32] imbrandon: I didn't know you cared :P [22:36] manchicken: fancy doing a talk on something for kubuntu day? [22:36] Riddell: Hmm... trying to think of what to talk about... [22:36] Ooh, I have an idea :) [22:37] what's that? [22:37] I could talk about how everybody should focus on cross-DE compatibility, but not necessarily watering down DE-integration by doing so :) [22:37] e.g. network manager. Same back-end, two different front-ends. [22:37]