 _MMA_: Paul Davey
[01:09] <troy_s> really?
[01:29] <_MMA_> troy_s: Yep. He's in the credits.
[01:29] <troy_s> _MMA_: how cool.  same guy who does buuf.
[01:29] <_MMA_> Yep.
[01:30] <_MMA_> And Gant and a TON of other stuff.
[02:13] <troy_s> _MMA_, kwwii, and anyone else who is around and who cares -- Niel -- the fellow who did those most interesting GTK mocks and author of AWN has apparently fallen ill...
[02:13] <troy_s> http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/11/wires-sticking-out.html
[02:13] <troy_s> Drop him a little get well note if you are of that inkling.
[02:26] <Toma-> Do dots really work for displaying minimise and maximise?
[02:29] <troy_s> Toma-: I suppose for an audience that uses them.
[02:29] <Toma-> i think theyre pretty stylish
[02:30] <troy_s> Toma-: I find up or down seem more logical -- but blow's tends to like the current trend in low line / box
[02:30] <Toma-> see i was thinking about up and down arrows, but these days, panels are on either side
[02:30] <troy_s> Toma-: I think it was kwwii 's mock (or someone's) that had a diagonal up and a diagonal down arrow -- top right up angled for max, and lower left down for min... looks original and quite decent.
[02:30] <Toma-> same with the little line
[02:31] <troy_s> well -- that tends to give more credence to apples plus / minus.
[02:31] <Toma-> let me take a screenshot...
[02:33] <Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/funkybuttons.png
[02:33] <Toma-> they need some reordering, but yeh.
[02:34] <troy_s> Toma-: Sure.  People tend to get a little obsessive believing that certain 'metaphors' work 'better' than others, but I have always been of the mind that if you apply something consistently and it is discoverable, people adapt.
[02:35] <Toma-> certainly
[02:35] <troy_s> Toma-: although I am quite sure TheSheep could probably pull up some reference from his usability-rainman head.
[02:35] <Toma-> lol
[02:35] <Toma-> i dont know how you could possibly bash those dots
[02:35] <Toma-> big dot = go big. small dot = go small.
[02:36] <troy_s> Toma-: In the end, it seems that people -- regardless of previous experience -- can migrate between say -- OSX (top left buttons with completely different colours and glyphs) and Vista (top right) with utter ease.
[02:36] <troy_s> Toma-: and that would probably be both directions.  Realistically, the glyphs that Ubuntu and Blows use by default are ... well ... what the hell do they mean exactly?  Does it matter?
[02:37] <Toma-> yeh
[02:37] <troy_s> Toma-: how is the stability of e these days?
[02:38] <Toma-> surprisingly good. few seg faults, but it restarts straight away
[02:38] <troy_s> Toma-: it appears as though they finally upped their icon size from the '3733t'stupidity size.
[02:38] <Toma-> nothing gets lost
[02:38] <Toma-> what icon size?
[02:40] <troy_s> Toma-: A while ago the icons in the file manager were hideously small... somewhere in the same absolute stupidity size of GNOME / KDE panel idiot size.
[02:41] <Toma-> ahh
[02:41] <Toma-> yeh
[02:41] <Toma-> alot of work going on in efm right now. it even has a toolbar than you can load modules into :) a little pointless but still, quite awesome
[02:42] <troy_s> Toma-: I find that with AWN GNOME does the trick well.
[02:42] <troy_s> Toma-: and if you kill off those ass-nasty gnome panels.
[02:43] <Toma-> is awn still dominated with gloss themes?
[02:44] <_MMA_> AWN sux.
[02:45] <troy_s> Toma-: it isn't bad... you can customize the hell out of it.
[02:45] <troy_s> _MMA_: What makes you say that?
[02:46] <troy_s> _MMA_: The options are the rather hideous GNOME panel or the 'at-least-out-of-the-dark-ages' awn.
[02:47] <Toma-> i bitterly hate the gnome-panel
[02:47] <troy_s> ditto
[02:47] <Toma-> ...i think theres... a blowfly stuck in my pc case....
[02:48] <_MMA_> I dont care about others opinions. It just sux.
[02:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: Well having a reason helps to have understanding.
[02:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: And we are all well aware that you don't care about other's opinions, it goes without saying.
[02:49] <_MMA_> I dont care about that either. I just want to throw my baseless opinion out there like everyone else.
[02:49] <troy_s> _MMA_: In light of the default GNOME panel, saying AWN sucks puts you in the complete buffoon category.
[02:49] <troy_s> lol
[02:49]  * _MMA_ goes to start a blog.
[02:49] <Toma-> hahahahah
[02:50] <Toma-> i hate blogs generally. i might write about my distaste on my personal website
[02:50] <troy_s> lol
[02:50] <troy_s> blogs work ok... i originally didn't really like them, but more and more i find myself mining content from them.
[02:53] <_MMA_> grumble... people suck... grumble... gnome sux, kde sux, micro$haft sux, AWN sux, Troy sux, Ken sux, grumble... I'm so cool.
[02:54]  * _MMA_ waits for it to post to Planet.
[02:57] <Toma-> you should check out the minimise/maximise buttons on the chrome theme for e17
[02:58] <Toma-> they all look identical till you mouse over, and the image shrinks for minimise, zooms for maximise, and lowers its opacity for close
[02:58] <Toma-> quite clever really
[02:59] <Toma-> and the wallpaper is animated version of pong :)
[02:59] <troy_s> _MMA_: LOL
[03:00] <troy_s> _MMA_: Although I don't really disagree with much of what you typed.  Aside from the AWN sux part.
[03:00] <troy_s> lol
[03:01]  * _MMA_ just wanted to type highly juvenile "micro$haft". ;)
[03:03] <troy_s> http://www.newsweek.com/id/73349
[03:03] <troy_s> _MMA_: Interesting article... you might dig it.
[03:06] <_MMA_> Yeah. Does look cool.
[03:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: It has an interesting quote or two on mimesis.
[03:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: Which many folks still seem stuck in.
[10:21] <lapo> hi
[10:30] <darkmatter> hello
[10:34]  * kwwii is off to the airport...
[10:36] <andreasn> to london?
[10:40]  * darkmatter is busy hacking away at narcissus
[10:42] <darkmatter> lets see how quicly I can translate all these pretty sketches into gtk :)
[10:45] <darkmatter> andreasn: what would you think of a truly modern gtk engine for gnome? one that actually makes sense in gnome, unlike the myriad of "ooo shiny!" themes that the n00bs make
[10:45] <andreasn> I always like stuff that makes sense
[10:45] <andreasn> what did you have in mind?
[10:46] <andreasn> or do you mean a engine or a theme?
[10:46] <darkmatter> andreasn: narcissus is to clearlooks what highres is to tango.
[10:46] <andreasn> narcissus? url?
[10:46] <darkmatter> andreasn: engine. initial prototype just a theme
[10:47] <andreasn> we totally need to have a good dark theme in gnome-themes, I should trick someone into putting some work into that
[10:49] <darkmatter> basically smooth, elegant, more realistic widget drawing. lots of subtle gradient work (including the panel) more modern progress bar look, subtle transitional animations and lighting effects. have it on paper. just starting a transition to a 'live' mockup
[10:51] <darkmatter> andreasn: no url yet. but soon
[10:57] <darkmatter> andreasn: basically I refined my design pattern that I had been experimenting with on glory. added a bit of an 'artsy' flare to it. It's very elegant, refined and professional (on paper). now the fun of trying to replicate the design in gtk comes :)
[11:01] <darkmatter> andreasn: if you want a decent example of the level of refinement I'm talking about, take a look at jimmacs highres industrial folders as compared the the standard ones, and imagine a similar level of evolution in a 'gnomish' gtk :)
[11:03] <darkmatter> andreasn: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2075422487&size=o <-- imagine an engine that will look smokin' hot with those ;P
[11:03] <darkmatter> mornin klepas
[11:21] <lapo> darkmatter: something like this? http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/jimmac/git-highres.git;a=blob;h=490ab62780feebce38857cbf607c0e9d430a7f23;hb=d75bc924122d78f28aa846f3445be7ea987d87d7;f=256x256/places/folder.svg
[11:22] <darkmatter> lapo. indeed. but that aesthetic translated to gtk :)
[11:32] <darkmatter> lapo, thanks for linking that, should serve as a nice visual reference to make sure everything fits
[16:47] <_MMA_> Baaaahhh!!!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/markop/499279340 Creepy.
[19:00] <Viper550> Okay, so my Dad already tainted his Ubuntu with non-open source software :P
[19:07] <nothlit> what'd he put on it
[19:07] <Viper550> Flash Player 9
[19:08] <_MMA1> lol. "tainted".