[00:08] hello [00:08] anyone here? [00:09] intermittently [00:09] i have a quick question [00:09] i saw that there will be a tutorial day on next Thursday, will it be recorded in case someone can't attend? [00:10] ubuntulog logs the channel, so there will be logs [00:10] !logs [00:10] Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/ [00:10] 1st link [00:10] cool, thanks for the tip [00:11] i'm particulary interested in PyKDE 4, any tutorials that could be recommended? [00:11] really I'm not the guy to ask, I have no clue how to actually use PyKDE4 [00:12] kenny: the tutorials will be recorded [00:12] ok, i'll try to be here but if not i'll refer to those logs [00:13] I would think the links will be published on the kubuntu wiki [00:14] now, why is this failing http://launchpadlibrarian.net/10735932/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.python-kde4_3.92.0%7Esvn20071201-0ubuntu1%7Eppa1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz [00:16] made myself a reminder, thanks again! === Riddell changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: Welcome to #kubuntu-devel | 7.10 out, you all rock! | Merge away: http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html | Tutorial Day a week on Thursday https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay [00:22] stdin: meh, that's my fault [00:22] kde4libs packaging broken [00:23] well, that's a problem then :p [00:25] let's see if I can get the gutsy version to start building [00:25] Riddell: story posted on the fridge [00:29] nixternal: thanks [00:29] nixternal: might be better to link to http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay rather than my blog, it contains margionally more information [00:30] Riddell: on the kubuntu day are we gonna talk/mention etc useing pkg-kde and such from debian too ( the reason i ask is i can blog about it and tag it planet-debian to show up their too but i dont wanna post non-debian stuff as they get a bit testy ) [00:32] imbrandon: I don't expect we will other than through correct attribution [00:32] k [00:33] Riddell: we did a translation into German and will post it tomorrow on kubuntu-de.org [00:36] txwikinger: excellent [01:21] fdoving: when you read this tomorrow, everything's done, including the "nice" support, with values going from 0 to 100 for kdesu compatibility [01:22] fdoving: would be nice if you can test along opened bugs on launchpad [01:22] fdoving: 172749, 173319, 132456, 162823, 148255 and 157043 should be fixed [01:22] fdoving: if everything's okay, then we can release 1.5 version and focus on -t support, as this should be the only missing feature for perfect kdesu compatibility (I hope) [01:23] fdoving: I may not be online, so if you perform tests, please email me :) [01:23] good night everyone [01:23] Riddell: I hope you'll like new kdesudo :) [01:24] OMG...... waking up in 3h30....... [01:24] * Tonio_ jumps to bed ! [01:28] Tonio_: i had a seizure when i stayed up like that for 3 nights in a row [01:29] * ScottK only had hallucinations. [01:32] coreymon77: I do that everytime, sometimes 9 or 10 days in a row :) [01:32] already the 4th night this time [01:33] coreymon77: the big problem is that when I then start having a real sleep, it can be VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEry long :) [01:33] * Tonio_ out this time, and for real ! [02:24] argh stupid tcp window scaling problem [02:24] grumble [02:24] stupid hotel router [02:36] anyone around tonight? [02:38] no [02:38] hello sarah :) [02:38] :) [02:53] looks like i'm gonna have to get up a little earlier on thursday [02:54] heh, why? [02:54] oh that's next thursday.. wait i think that's worse :-\ [02:54] tutorials day === Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee [07:09] ciao === aplg|mobile is now known as apache|mobile === \sh_away is now known as \sh [07:27] Riddell: question is, where is our captury/capseo from anyway? [07:27] as in who made it [08:35] jeez [08:35] that are mine [08:41] apache|mobile: I was about to say [08:41] hiya [08:41] just read about the event next week in your blog Riddell [08:41] that is my birthday though and I will be out but I will log it all :) [08:42] Riddell: there was a question from the forums whether logs of the sessions would be posted and where. [08:42] Riddell: interessting how packages get in without me working on it :P [08:42] * apache|mobile notes that his english professor is having a very strange ideas about how the big share holders think [08:42] is krandrtray known to be broken? [08:42] it is? [08:43] well it doesnt seem to deal with dual head with xrandr 1.2 very well [08:43] i'm running 2*1920x1200 in xinerama and it tells me i have 1920x1200 [08:43] ideas like what? [08:45] Riddell: last commit to captury source was 4 months ago [08:45] so I doubt it makes a lot of difference whether debian is much nuer [08:47] buz: you should report this upstream, sounds like a krandr compability issue to me [08:51] yeah sounds like it [08:51] anyone got dual head and can confirm? [09:04] apache|mobile: does that go for libcapseo and libcaptury too? [09:05] Jucato: yes, logs will be available [09:05] Jucato: where's that on the forums? [09:06] http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3089348 [09:06] I also made an announcement there: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3089349 [09:08] Jucato: excellent, thanks [09:10] Riddell: yep [09:13] apache|mobile: ok, guess we can just leave them as is for now, thanks for looking into it [09:13] no problem === meduxa is now known as toscalix [09:47] good morning [09:47] moin mhb [09:48] Jucato: moin, wie gehts? [09:49] not fair. I only know "moin" :D [09:50] Jucato: heh, I assumed you didnt move into Germany during the night :o) [09:51] hahah nah... although that wouldn't be a bad idea :) [09:51] * Jucato would be closer to the heart of KDE [09:51] Jucato: I see there is a new trademark blog post of yours [09:51] :D [09:52] Jucato: IMVSO, you forgot a lot of aspects, like pride, bad software design, elitism, license reasons... [09:52] * Jucato wonders what 'S' there means [09:53] why do you think there is as many Control Centers as the distros? [09:53] well yeah, I coughed up that post in less than 10 minutes... not my most well-thought out post :) [09:53] because almost each one of them was designed to be unique to that distro, hard to port, etc. [09:53] so that they can claim its their own, revolutionary control center [09:54] Jucato: sarcastic [09:54] NIH :) [09:55] Jucato: and of course, errors of the past [09:55] they still plague us [09:55] GTK/GNOME is based on some C mutation, Qt/KDE on a C++ mutation [09:56] * Jucato is still amused/baffled that no distro has ever used kcontroledit to customize the groupings of modules... [09:56] kcontroledit? Hmm, never seen it. [09:57] it solves half of what system settings was made for, w/o the new shell [09:57] Jucato: we do have GTK and Qt because both toolkits are evil in some ways, and incompatible with one another [09:58] for example, once you use a silly QString in your code, it starts to be all Qt-dependent, even though you just used a silly string. [09:58] then don't make it a QString :) [09:58] hi btw. [09:59] fdoving: right, I am just angry about why does Qt have to create classes for everything. [09:59] because they rock. [09:59] because string didn't have support for unicode back then afaik [10:01] fdoving: it is not really me who writes all the applications in the world, sadly [10:02] fdoving: but if you infest your backend with QClasses, you would have a hard time porting it to a different toolkit - GTK fellas would create a new app instead - two stubs, happiness for all! [10:02] qt4-mhb - mhbs own qt fork. [10:02] * Jucato scratches his head... [10:03] mhb: qt4 is a little bit better in that way, you can choose to not use the GUI part, only the console-things, for a console-app/daemon etc. [10:03] you still need qt though. [10:03] I guess the best solution to that would be ncurses :) [10:04] the best solution would be to separate the gui from the real program. [10:05] something the gtk guys often do. [10:05] .. i think. [10:05] gdebi is a nice example, so is software-properties-kde [10:06] so one needs to make libraries to do the work, then make an app to tie it all together. we should be programming C only of course. [10:06] but QT is so nice and easy to deal with compared to plain C. [10:07] mhb: Qt has to do that because c++ std lib is so bad [10:07] it's one reason why python is all round nicer [10:08] and once trolltech makes c++ so nice with QT, they can sell their product to companies and make $$. brilliant idea. [10:09] and use the $$$ to make Qt better, thereby making KDE better :) [10:09] it's brilliant! brilliant! brilliant! :D [10:14] fdoving: QT = QuickTime ;-) [10:15] quicktime?.. oh, the annoying apple thing. right.. :) [10:16] Riddell: that may be true, but with the MOC and their own ton o classes, they very much block a sensible application design with just the frontend being Qt-dependent. [10:17] it reminds me of Microsoft, somehow ... I guess that is the same rationale for the IE breaking HTML and CSS so much [10:17] mhb: no, it's easy, you can't use QT for the program in your case. only for the frontend. [10:17] if you don't want to depend on it for your program, you can't use it. [10:17] Qt does still work fine with c++ std lib, or plain C [10:19] it does, but then I would have to work around phonon and solid and all the "backend" libraries in KDE because their implementation is so Qt-dependent it hurts [10:20] if qt is already there, why not use it? [10:20] when KDE4 comes out, all the young programmers are going to port their apps to it, thus making their backends use solid and phonon, thus ending all hopes of portable backends [10:20] that's not a fault of Qt, it's a fault of C/C++ being so basic [10:20] can't a gtk app talk to a qt backend app somehow? [10:21] fdoving: again QT = QuickTime :P [10:21] the toolkit thingy is Qt [10:21] lowercase t [10:21] by intention I think ;-) [10:21] ,.,/ignore apache* [10:21] :) [10:21] phonon and solid are already backend abstractions anyway [10:22] Riddell: suppose you do a media player [10:23] Riddell: and you would like the player part to be portable, the UI part not to be [10:23] where do you put phonon then? [10:23] like xinelib? [10:23] if you put it in the code that plays music, you could not port it to GTK without having it Qt-dependent. [10:23] Riddell: no, like amarok. [10:24] or maybe kaffeine. [10:24] well xinelib is the player part, amarok is just a frontend to it [10:24] Riddell: right, but you can share more code than just xinelib? [10:24] I mean all players are going to have a play method, stop method, collection in some way... [10:24] not really, all that's left is the frontend [10:25] the play and stop methods are in xinelib [10:25] configuration [10:26] Riddell: if you shared just the xinelib, and there would be bug in your collection, you would have two bugs in two apps with no sense [10:26] Riddell: still, I dont see where phonon fits in ... where can I use it? [10:27] I mean I have to share xinelib and I would like to share code above it, such as play "wrapper" method, collection, configuration, etc. [10:27] on KDE [10:27] so you don't have to have the hassle of xinelib :) [10:27] Riddell: but then all that code above it would be Qt dependent, including the middle layer such as configuration or collection, or the "play" wrapper method [10:28] well that's what you get for using a language with no decent library [10:28] use java or python etc and that issue goes away [10:29] everything is related, it seems [10:29] Qt subclassing everything possible and inventing MOC reminds me of the distributions that create their own Control Centers just for the sake that they wont be portable and customers stick with them [10:30] instead of improving KControl and creating modules for that [10:30] or engines, if you want to have somethin UI-independent [10:30] * mhb shuts up [10:31] don't use qt if you want something that doesn't depend on it. :) [10:32] :( [10:32] gtk ftw! [10:32] i will be on a conference on the 13th :( [10:32] buz: there will be logs availale [10:32] good [10:32] still, not the same [10:32] buz: find some internet access! [10:32] wait, that might still be toolkit-lockin... ncurses would be better... wasn't there a toolkit being built around aptitude... [10:32] conference is the wrong name, its more of a job fair [10:33] tho i would expect to be done with it by noon [10:33] but i dont want to lug around a 3kg notebook all day [10:33] fdoving: right, it is good that it is just me who creates all code in the world, because otherwise some lazy programmer would use it and we could have like two apps doing the same without sharing a line on GTK and on Qt. [10:34] <_StefanS_> uhm did anyone notice the last firefox update (2.0.11) can [10:34] <_StefanS_> 't connect to the internet ? [10:34] <_StefanS_> mine sure cant.. [10:34] * fdoving chekcs firefox. [10:35] <_StefanS_> maybe just a local problem.. [10:35] works for me [10:35] works for me too. [10:35] even feels pretty fast for firefox [10:35] <_StefanS_> well I see my ubuntu works though.. [10:35] that sure is quicker than 2.0 [10:35] <_StefanS_> thats wierd [10:35] no more gui lag it seems [10:35] <_StefanS_> buz: isn't it 2.0.11 you're using? [10:35] it's 2.0.11 [10:35] maybe they fixed a few very bad offenders in the performance area [10:36] or maybe i just havent used firefox all that much since i upgraded to a new notebook :O [10:36] <_StefanS_> buz: probably the last thing, because I havent noticed any difference ;) [10:36] except for the missing content-editable and some weird bugs with some pages, i like konqui much more [10:36] _StefanS_: stuff occasionally does get faster [10:36] some poppler update gave a giant boost to kpdf lately [10:37] <_StefanS_> not firefox. [10:37] <_StefanS_> in the 2-series.. [10:37] <_StefanS_> freaking wierd.. even safemode doesn't work [10:41] <_StefanS_> maybe it has something to do with me being on 64bit [10:41] <_StefanS_> (unlikely..) [10:58] sounds like suspect [10:58] i'm on 32bit [10:59] Riddell: the "Kubuntu Tutorials Day" is an awesome idea [11:02] pgquiles: I'm just hoping someone turns up :) [11:04] hi there [11:04] fdoving: I just commited latest changes [11:04] fdoving: support for -n and -r (realtime) [11:04] fdoving: next step is adding the last 2 missing options : -t and -f [11:04] -t seems pretty easy, using konsole, but -f is a bit more complicated [11:04] fdoving: once that done and the program tested widelly I'll release a version 2.0, probably [11:06] Riddell: I've already got some packages I want to include in debian and ubuntu [11:06] so count on me at least :-) [11:07] yay [11:10] Tonio_: 157043 can still be reproduced. [11:10] Tonio_: the problem is the quoting. [11:10] Tonio_: kdesu kate "one two", will open a file named "one two" for editing in kate. [11:11] with kdesudo it will open two files, 'one' and 'two' [11:11] because of the broken quoting. [11:11] the problem is that kdesudo quotes every argyment. [11:11] kdesu quotes the arguments in one. [11:11] 'one two' vs. 'one' 'two' [11:12] fdoving: depends if you say "one two" or one two in the command line [11:12] fdoving: I do the way gksu does [11:13] fdoving: I can have a look on that point [11:13] fdoving: what about the other bugs ? [11:14] fdoving: I'll try to get that one fix (and hopefully with no regression) in an hour [11:14] so the idea would be to quote every single argument and not parse them for ' ' qchar..... got it I guess [11:21] fdoving: the problem is that I have to take care of sudo too [11:22] fdoving: kdesu "kate toto" works for example [11:22] sudo "kate toto" gives a command not found [11:23] fdoving: it looks like kdesu considers a specific case when there is one arg only === neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde [11:31] fdoving: done [11:31] fdoving: kdesu kate "one two" opens the file as expected [11:32] fdoving: kdesu "kate 'one two'" works too [11:32] fdoving: kdesu 'kate "one two"' works too [11:32] fdoving: and of course kdesu "kate toto" also works [11:32] fdoving: afaics that exactly like with kdesu [11:32] pushed? [11:36] hi all [11:37] hi Serega [11:37] Tonio_: push push :) [11:37] fdoving: still fixing the last specific case... [11:38] fdoving: kdesu -c "kate 'one two'" -> works [11:38] but not with kdesudo [11:38] right. [11:38] then i'll push some debian/ fixes. [11:38] manpage etc. [11:38] fdoving: oki ;) [11:38] fdoving: I pushed the manpage a moment ago, are you fixing using this base ? [11:39] Tonio_: did you fix debian/postinst etc. [11:39] fdoving: no not yet [11:39] preinst and postrm? [11:39] fdoving: one little question [11:39] i've done those. [11:39] shoot. [11:39] fdoving: is there a better way to split a string like "kate 'one two'" than splitting against ' ' [11:39] my problem is there [11:40] I'd like to have the same "split" that what args does, means every 'bla bla' group stays one element [11:40] you can cut the command from the arguments. [11:40] Riddell: Jon, one question. How can I download e.g. libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2_i386.deb? What will happed if package upgrades to 1.2.10? [11:40] so you can have like: command 'all the arguments' [11:40] yeah, cutting the first ans then the second.... [11:40] Riddell: exactly THIS link will be inaccessible [11:40] fdoving: which tool would you use ? [11:40] cut ? [11:40] Tonio_: qstring.pos [11:40] oups ;) [11:41] oki ;) [11:42] Tonio_: use qstring::find to find the first space, then qstring::find returns the position of the first space. say: /usr/bin/command [THIS] arg arg arg [11:43] fdoving: hum well, it looks like kdesu doesn't do any quoting with the -c option [11:43] * Hobbsee waves [11:43] fdoving: then what I have to to is just split to get the executable for it's name and icon and that's it [11:43] hi Hobbsee [11:44] fdoving: -c is just consider one option and one block, and that's it, let's do like kdesu then, since that also is sudo compatible [11:44] hi Shely [11:44] hi, Riddell [11:48] Tonio_: kdesu with or without -c behaves the same way here. [11:49] hi all !! [11:50] * Hobbsee waves [11:50] fdoving: as long as there is one arg, yes, I agree [11:50] kdesu -c "bla toto" is equivalent to kdesu "bla toto" [11:50] hi ben_ [11:50] the difference is in handling already set quotes, if i give kdesu a quoted input, it doesn't mess with it, kdesudo does. the best example is: kdesu.distrib kate 'bah bah' vs. kdesudo kate 'bah bah' [11:50] fdoving: but not to kdesu bla toto [11:51] Tonio_: exactly, without already set quotes they behave the same way. [11:51] yep [11:51] if we give kdesudo quoted input, it ignores it and quotes its own way. [11:51] fdoving: just fixed, testing [11:54] fdoving: commited [11:58] Tonio_: works. [11:59] fdoving: works ????????? [11:59] fdoving: looks like I didn't commit the good thing lol [11:59] kdesudo kate 'one two' [11:59] does what it should. [12:00] :) [12:00] so does kdesudo kate one two [12:01] ho yes that does [12:01] I'm testing the -c fix right now [12:02] fdoving: commited [12:02] fdoving: -c should behave like kdesu now [12:02] nice. [12:02] fdoving: kdesu "kate \"one two\"" is a good test for example [12:03] fdoving: I'll work on implemting the last 2 missing command line options but this time, I think we have something that can be considered "correct" [12:03] fdoving: don't you ? [12:03] yep. [12:03] I have not looked much into the code yet, though. [12:03] of course [12:03] but it works as I want it to. [12:03] fdoving: the point was just to parse args correctly and the pty thing [12:03] parsing needs 3 tests, due to sudo and kdesu different behavior [12:03] How do you auto-close bugs with commit messages? [12:03] -c is a case [12:04] one args only the second [12:04] and several args the third [12:04] fdoving: add this : [12:04] Fixes LP: #123456 [12:04] in the changelog [12:04] fdoving: I was waiting for your tests to add bug ids, but feel free to do so ! [12:05] separate bug ids by space then [12:05] Fixes LP: #123456, #135790, .... [12:05] i fixed #162823 [12:05] oki, the man divertion right ? [12:05] yep. [12:05] small enough to be compatible with watching the kid. [12:05] fdoving: also if you could fix my poor english in the malfile, that would be nice [12:05] the task that is. :) [12:06] fdoving: haha [12:08] Tonio_: hmm.. try a wrong password. [12:13] commited a small wrong-pass count fix. [12:13] Tonio_: i can't confirm the hardy related bugs, i'm on gutsy. [12:17] fdoving: what problem with wrong password ? [12:17] fdoving: arg there is a regression on that point [12:17] wtf ? [12:17] I momitted yesterday [12:17] you womited yesterday? [12:17] :o) [12:17] or vomited? [12:17] :o) [12:17] if (!badpass<3) or something like that. [12:17] didn't make sense. [12:18] * mhb shuts up again [12:18] i changed it to if (badpass>2) [12:18] #132456 is tricky. [12:19] now that we connect to a pty the password-remembering-for-15-minutes does not work anymore. [12:19] well, that is not entirely true. [12:19] but from the run command dialog, one is asked the password every time. [12:20] might be a nice feature, from konsoles it's remembered. [12:22] what do you think about my proposal on how to fix bug 160067 [12:22] Launchpad bug 160067 in dolphin "Raw HTML tags show in Dolphin status bar" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160067 [12:23] mhb: i agree, remove the tags. [12:26] so! I've heard we've got plenty of MOTU packagers around! [12:26] would anyone care to do a bit of janitor service for me? [12:27] Tonio_: might consider including https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdesudo/+bug/144970 [12:27] Launchpad bug 144970 in kdesudo "Kdesudo does not work with libpam-poldi" [Undecided,New] [12:27] d3lphin has servicemenus implemented as desktop files, so it might make sense to move the .desktop files to the correct packages [12:27] Tonio_: nevermind, i'll just add it, as it's so simple. [12:27] so when you remove k3b, you won't see a "Burn with K3B" desktop file. [12:27] or, more importantly, fix bug 149130 [12:27] Launchpad bug 149130 in dolphin "[7.10 beta] kubuntu dolphin lists "encrypt file" as an action item despite the required application (kgpg) not being installed" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149130 [12:28] so anyone who'd like to practice his packaging skills a little and get eternal gratefulness from me please apply! [12:29] mhb: can't one make some magic link to the konqueror servicemenus or something? [12:29] as the .desktop files are already installed for konq. [12:30] hmm, that makes sense [12:30] I thought konq did it some other way or something [12:30] * mhb checks [12:30] the path is the only difference. [12:36] Riddell: looks like python-kde4 needs python-qt4 >= 4.3.1 and gutsy has 4.3-2ubuntu7 (4.3-2ubuntu7.1 in -proposed) [12:36] fdoving: of course [12:36] stdin: meh, another target for your PPA? [12:36] fdoving saves the day again [12:37] Riddell: sure I have it ready for upload :) [12:37] awooga [12:37] Riddell: I assigned the missing dolphin translations to you, could you please it solve it somehow soon? [12:38] mhb: bug number? [12:38] Riddell: I would like not to get bashed for that [12:38] bug 132141 [12:38] Launchpad bug 132141 in dolphin "desktop_dolphin translations missing in the source package" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/132141 [12:38] mhb: ok [12:38] thank you [12:40] yay, i saved the day :) [12:40] (what did i do?) [12:40] fdoving: I don't understand why the !badpass<3 test fails.....; doesn't make sense to me, although I agree >2 is better [12:41] fdoving: looking for the libpam thing [12:42] Tonio_: i commited that one-line change, it's trival and doesn't break anything. http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-kdesudo/kdesudo/trunk/revision/45 [12:42] fdoving: pointed at the fact that symlinking Dolphin's servicemenus to Konqueror's fixes a couple of bugs [12:42] mhb: ah :) [12:43] fdoving: perhaps there should be a central place for those, so that removing Konqueror doesn't erase them [12:44] on the other hand, there are many apps that ship them directly to /usr/share/apps/konqueror/servicemenus and I would not like to break them [12:44] it doesn't, as long as other apps put things there too. [12:44] dpkg will not remove non-empty dirs. [12:44] yep. [12:45] besides, moving them to /usr/share/servicemenus is a task for a packager, not for me [12:45] :o) [12:47] you could maybe add a new checkbox in the config, 'Include Konqueror servicemenus' - that would be neat :) [12:48] too much bloat. [12:48] but it would be neat :) [12:48] I don't think users will recognize that there was a change in the servicemenus [12:48] probably not. [12:49] will you remove the d3lphin servicemenus and only use konqueror ones? [12:49] I guess so. [12:50] d3lphin ones are a subset of konqueror ones, it seems. [12:50] fdoving: just commited a couple of fixes, little issue with split [12:50] fdoving: you should update, this time I'm done [12:51] Tonio_: then i guess uploading is the next task on your list? :) [12:53] .. a package that is. [12:55] really, I need a packager :o) [12:55] * Hobbsee hides [12:56] could someone help me not learn this makefile.am.in.in.in hell and guide me on how to install a symlink using it? [12:57] I just need the symlink from $(kde_datadir)/konqueror/servicemenus to $(kde_datadir)/d3lphin/servicemenus [12:57] * Hobbsee wonders why not do it in debian/rules? [12:58] or debian/links [12:58] because I want the source to be installable on non-debian systems, too [12:58]