[10:26] <Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
[10:26] <ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 06 Dec 04:30: Xubuntu meeting | 13 Dec 07:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 23:00: Server Team meeting
[12:03]  * ogra waves
[12:03] <ogra> hey flint
[12:03] <stgraber_> hey
[12:03] <pips1> flint: ogra RichEd stgraber hi
[12:03] <flint> ogra, how are you doing!
[12:03]  * RichEd lurks ... busy with dealine ... mention by name if needed specifically
[12:04] <RichEd> *deadline
[12:04]  * pips1 is also in lurking-mode
[12:04] <ogra> RichEd, i'll call you for the last part for communty/management ...
[12:04]  * Hobbsee waves
[12:04] <ogra> so teahc:
[12:04] <RichEd> ta
[12:04] <ogra> *tech
[12:04]  * pips1 is cooking lunch
[12:04] <flint> I sort of like "dealine"  sort of like the line on a deal...
[12:04] <ogra> pips1, congrats to rpoducing new ubuntu users btw :)
[12:04] <flint> it is morning in Vermont.
[12:04] <ogra> *producing
[12:04] <pips1> ogra: hehe, thanks
[12:05] <pips1> the new ubuntu user is currently being fed
[12:05] <flint> ogra, your movie find deserves mention.  Very cool.
[12:05] <pips1> the mother wears a ubuntu t-shirt, believe it or not :-)
[12:05] <ogra> so we had some open questions last week ... i talked to cjwatson about the CD changes and consensus was that they will happen in *any case*
[12:06] <stgraber_> question being when ...
[12:06] <ogra> overall the seeds will be changed a lot so i cant exactly predict when
[12:06] <stgraber_> looks like my server is back online, great :)
[12:06] <ogra> stgraber, we wont do any vitong today, no need to have three accounts logged in :P
[12:06] <ogra> *voting
[12:07] <stgraber_> ogra: crappy germany <-> france connection at the moment, all my internet trafic going through germany I have some connection problems :)
[12:07] <ogra> my main work last week was getting the remaining merges done ... there is one open issue with tuxmath where i need input from our font guy (tuxmath depends on a new font and i want a clear statement about the licensing)
[12:08] <ogra> stgraber1, yeah thats what i would say as well :)
[12:08]  * ogra giggles 
[12:08] <pips1> hihi
[12:09] <pips1> poor fellow
[12:09] <ogra> i'll try to make the CD redesign hapen for the next milestone, but since i'll be travelling half of next week i cant promise anything
[12:09] <ogra> worst case it will happen only after new year
[12:09] <stgraber> argh !!! once it's the VPN, then it's irssi ... :)
[12:09] <ogra> which indeed is odd since we get less testing
[12:10] <ogra> ltsp is moved in the ubuntu alternate CD already, but the linux-image-386 package isnt on there yet and we need a slimmed down version of it first it seems ...
[12:10] <ogra> in ltsp land a lot of things changed and other changes are still to come
[12:11] <ogra> we have the first pre-release tarball in hardy now, so feel free to play with it (works for me (tm))
[12:11] <ogra> but be aware it might still break heavily as fedora hasnt merged their patches yet
[12:12] <ogra> there are two ne apps i wrote on my weekeds for ltsp maintenance, neither is packaged yet but i expet them to be at least in universe for the release
[12:12] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-image-shell/ is a tool that spawns a shell inside the squashfs image to make changing things easier
[12:13] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/gtk-build-client/ is a Gui for ltsp-build-client that some of you have seen in boston already
[12:13] <ogra> code is on https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/ltsp-build-client-gtk and https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/ltsp-image-shell
[12:14] <ogra> beyond all that i'm fiddling with livecd-rootfs to get automatic classmate image building done (which is my main prio atm)
[12:15] <pips1> ogra: if I understood correctly, your focus will move to the edubuntu "add-on" cd and slightly away from LTSP which is now taken care of by ltsp dev community and ubuntu server team (ubuntu-wise) ?
[12:15] <ogra> last milestone was alpha1 which we did pretty well i think, (lots of thanks to davmor2 and stgraber for helping with testing)
[12:15] <ogra> next milestone is alpha2 schedules for dec 20th
[12:16] <ogra> pips1, i'm only contributing to ltsp nowadays and we have switched upstream to be team maintained ...
[12:16] <ogra> the prob here is that we're a team of three different distros so every change requires a lot of discussion
[12:17] <pips1> is there a central "team hub" somewhere?
[12:17] <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ is the team
[12:17] <ogra> oops
[12:17] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/
[12:17] <ogra> the first one was the code :)
[12:18] <ogra> we have members from debian, fedora and ubuntu in the team currently
[12:18] <pips1> who are the debian and fedora members?
[12:18] <ogra> ther is code waiting from gentoo to be merged into the main branch and someone is working on a weird implementation for suse based on a tool called kiwi
[12:18] <ogra> for fedora we have warren togami (who is the founder of fedora)
[12:19] <pips1> nice
[12:19] <ogra> for debian vagrant cascadian is the contact
[12:19] <ogra> (vagrant and i work together since we started work on ltsp5 he's an old chap and was at the seville UDS as well)
[12:20] <pips1> so vagrant will remain independant/volunteering? or will he join canonical ?
[12:20] <ogra> so my focus for ltsp is actually more on integration (packaging) and maintenance tools instead of being on the core code
[12:20] <ogra> he wont, there were several visa issues he couldnt overcome
[12:20] <ogra> actually i'm in the job we created for him now
[12:21] <ogra> as i'm working in the distro team and not in the edu team anymore
[12:21]  * ogra got sent the job description he wrote for vagrants job this week :P
[12:22] <pips1> heh
[12:23] <ogra> so ltsp is now cared for by a bigger group which takes a lot load of my sholders but pushes me into some (endless) discussions
[12:23] <ogra> the time i save is put into the classmate PC work though
[12:24] <flint> ogra the classmate constraints are a worthy adversary...
[12:24] <ogra> flint, indeed :)
[12:24] <flint> :^)
[12:24] <ogra> but its taking a lot of time to make it autobuild etc ...
[12:25] <ogra> the former images i built were rather handmade and had a lot hardcoded stuff ... i need to translate all that into the proper tools of the distro
[12:25] <ogra> so that will eat the majority of my time this cycle
[12:25] <ogra> chances are good we can reuse all that for the triple e PC from asus though
[12:26] <ogra> (apart from fixed module sets etc that are only for classmate)
[12:27] <ogra> stgraber did awesome work on iTalc which finally got uploaded this week :)
[12:27] <ogra> pease help testing so we find all bugs and have the most rocking iTalc in hardy :)
[12:28] <stgraber> right, I'd like demo-mode/shutdown/reboot/logout testing especially :)
[12:28] <ogra> it's currently still in universe and we need to prove stabilty and usability before attempting to pull it to main
[12:28] <ogra> so each test is valuable :)
[12:29] <ogra> i must admit i didnt do any work on edubuntu content server yet
[12:29] <ogra> which is also on my plate for hardy
[12:29] <stgraber> ogra: you talked about the eeePC, did you try one ?
[12:29] <ogra> i guess i'll need some extra discussions with the server team as well
[12:30] <ogra> stgraber, nope, our triple e is travelling through the world atm ... its supposed to land on bryce's desk at some point
[12:30] <ogra> so he will take care fo all the machine specific stuff but we agreed to work together where it makes sense
[12:31]  * ogra wonders what he forgot ...
[12:31] <ogra> any questions wrt tech ?
[12:31] <stgraber> ogra: ok, it's currently high in my "to buy" list (and so is a good PDA/tablet)
[12:32] <ogra> well there is that christmas thing oming up :)
[12:32] <ogra> *coming
[12:33]  * ogra will wait with new HW until may at least :) i got enough crap lying around here ... 
[12:33] <stgraber> I would like to see how easy it would be to create a minimal image to boot LTSP over wireless (I'm sure I would have lots of interesting people for deployment in school)
[12:34] <ogra> you will need to have a initramfs script for it
[12:34] <ogra> i'm sure its pretty trivial
[12:34] <ogra> i have some ideas but not the time to do it :)
[12:35] <stgraber> ogra: yes, I plan to add wpa_supplicant and the wireless stuff in the initramfs
[12:35] <ogra> sadly you wont be able to get that done really secure as the WLAN key has to be either a bootoption in pxe or has to be put into initramfs
[12:35] <ogra> both are user accessible via tftp
[12:36] <ogra> its a similar prob to putting sshd into a thin client chroot/image
[12:36] <ogra> everyone can steal the keys
[12:36] <stgraber> ogra: I can have WPA enterprise using SSL certificate, then I can enable/disable the clients
[12:36] <ogra> right, thats an option
[12:37] <ogra> ok, i think thats it about tech
[12:37] <ogra> anyone up to talk about docs ?
[12:38] <ogra> no LaserJock around ... so i guess not
[12:38] <ogra> ...
[12:39] <ogra> artwork ...
[12:39] <ogra> i guess we need to contat jill for a new wallpaper :)
[12:39] <ogra> *contact
[12:39] <ogra> RichEd, can you mail her ?
[12:40] <RichEd> sure ... do we want to make any suggestions to her ... or let her decide where to start ?
[12:40] <ogra> so we get our artwork a bit earlier this time and she actually has time for different proposals
[12:40] <RichEd> i.e. any theme / criteria
[12:40] <ogra> well, she did the last one and i would assume she knows where we like to go now
[12:40] <ogra> something neutral edu related :)
[12:41] <ogra> any other issues about artwork ?
[12:41] <ogra> pips1, and word about the website theme ?
[12:41] <ogra> i heard there is work going on
[12:41] <pips1> I'm wondering... the next release is a LTS one. so stability is a big criteria.
[12:41] <ogra> pips1, for artwork ?
[12:41] <ogra> :)
[12:42] <pips1> nope, sorry ,I was still pondering about tech
[12:42] <pips1> what needs to be done for improved stability for edubuntu?
[12:42] <pips1> early and often testing, I suppose :-)
[12:43] <stgraber> pips1: yes, and we (as a ubuntu testing team member) would like way more testing than for Gutsy (we were only like 4-5 testers for Edubuntu+LTSP)
[12:43] <ogra> not update to the latest and greatest but rather stay with what we have and stabilize that
[12:43] <ogra> thats my phillosophy for ltsp at least
[12:43] <ogra> i.e. i dont see localapps happen in time yet
[12:43] <ogra> and we have lots of bugs with autologin etc
[12:43] <pips1> ok, but there are still some kinks with the edubuntu "add-on" to be ironed out, no?
[12:44] <ogra> so i i do work there it will be rather bugfixing than working on new features
[12:44]  * stgraber would like to have at least a minimal localapp support (running shutdown/reboot remotely)
[12:44] <RichEd> ogra: re artwork .... can we assume that the colour palette will remain the same ?
[12:44] <ogra> pips1, i dont even have an idea yet how to do the addon change ... (i'm still writing on the spec)
[12:44] <ogra> RichEd, *i* didnt plan to change it ...
[12:44] <pips1> hmm
[12:45] <ogra> if others have suggestions they are indeed welcome
[12:45] <ogra> but that will need some contribution from these *others* as well ;)
[12:45] <RichEd> ogra: me nods ... the comment was w.r.t. the new "ubuntu black"
[12:45] <ogra> i dont care about ubuntu here :)
[12:45] <ogra> ubutu changed the main color every release
[12:45] <RichEd> or should i say the possible alleged rumour of a new ubuntu black
[12:45] <ogra> its just a bit more drastic this time
[12:46] <pips1> so the addon change is somewhat up in the air... that's what you talked about at the beginning of the meeting, right, that you need to talk to cj watson
[12:46] <RichEd> ( just to be on the safe side :)
[12:46] <ogra> pips1, no, it will happen in any case
[12:46] <ogra> its just not my highest prio atm ... thats classmate
[12:46] <pips1> right, I will happen, but how is still not quite defined :-)
[12:46] <pips1> ic, right
[12:46] <pips1> *it will
[12:47] <Hobbsee> turn it yellow :P
[12:47] <pips1> hey Hobbsee
[12:47] <Hobbsee> heya pips1!
[12:48] <ogra> Hobbsee, it *is* yellow ... different shades every release though
[12:48] <ogra> (the wllpaper and login screen at least :) )
[12:48] <pips1> mustard
[12:48] <ogra> no mustard was dissed
[12:48] <ogra> that was my breezy theme which JaneW found to boring :)
[12:48] <pips1> :-)
[12:48] <pips1> normally women like mustard color
[12:48] <ogra> pips1, edubuntu addon will depend on ubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-server
[12:49] <Hobbsee> ogra: really?  the one i saw at LCA wasn't, i thought.
[12:49] <Hobbsee> pips1: ew.  horrid colour :)
[12:49] <pips1> :)
[12:49] <ogra> edubuntu-desktop will be ubuntu-desktop + edu apps and artwork in the future
[12:50] <pips1> the future = hardy+1 ?
[12:50] <ogra> edubuntu-server will currently only depend on edubuntu-content-server (nonexistent yet) and expect ubuntu minimal/standard to be in place
[12:50] <ogra> no hardy
[12:50] <pips1> ah
[12:51] <ogra> i.e. you will be able to install from the ubuntu-server CD and if you pop in the edubuntu addon CD you have the option to install -content-server on top
[12:51] <ogra> which brings moodle and a wiki on the addon cd
[12:51] <pips1> will you be able to work on edu apps during this cycle at all? or is it mostly up to work LaserJock manages to do?
[12:52] <pips1> edu (desktop) apps
[12:52] <ogra> well i will do my best to work on edu apps but i suspect most of my time in hardy will go into classmate and the CD redesign
[12:52] <Hobbsee> ogra: can i ask the stupid questoin about cd space, with ubuntu-desktop + edu apps?
[12:52] <pips1> right
[12:52] <ogra> hardy+1 should be a very relaxed thing for me though :)
[12:52] <ogra> Hobbsee, whats the issue ?
[12:52] <Hobbsee> ogra: you should never say that.  they'll give you more work :)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> ogra: er, won't your cds be oversized?
[12:53] <ogra> Hobbsee, fine with me ... in hardy+1 i should have gotten rid of 80% of my current duties ;)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> ogra: ubuntu hardly fits as it is, let alone with more edu apps on top of it
[12:53] <ogra> Hobbsee, we dont have any desktop on them anymore
[12:53] <Hobbsee> oh right
[12:53] <Hobbsee> sorry for the diversion.  continue :)
[12:53] <ogra> addon *requires* ubuntu-desktop
[12:53] <Hobbsee> didn't realise you were just talking -minimal and -standard
[12:54] <Hobbsee> ohhhh!
[12:54] <Hobbsee> yes, i see.
[12:54] <ogra> what you get through shipit if you order edubuntu will likely be a two CD sleeve with ubuntu-desktop and edubuntu addon then
[12:54] <ogra> so we can ship two CDs without having to press two ;)
[12:54] <pips1> so edubuntu-desktop is a somewhat *configuration* of ubuntu-desktop ? (with own artwork and selection of desktop edu apps)
[12:55] <ogra> as it is now
[12:55] <ogra> did you ever look at the edubuntu desktop seeds ?
[12:55] <pips1> nope :-)
[12:55] <ogra> its duplicating most of ubuntu desktop
[12:55] <ogra> the new seeds will rather look like the edubuntu-desktop-kde seed in the future
[12:56] <ogra> that one depends on kubuntu-desktop and just lists a few kdeedu apps
[12:56] <ogra> so we have pleanty of space for edu stuff on our CD ;)
[12:56] <pips1> and edubuntu-server is a *configuration* of ubuntu-server, including LTSP and edu server apps (like moodle and wiki) ..?
[12:57] <ogra> no
[12:57] <pips1> no?
[12:57] <ogra> edubuntu-server is a metapackage or task that will use ubuntu-server as platform but depend on high level apps like moodle/wiki
[12:58] <ogra> you should be able to install edubuntu-server on any other system as well though
[12:58] <pips1> what do you mean by any other system?
[12:58] <ogra> ltsp is out of the loop here
[12:59] <pips1> ah, edubuntu-server is only the education related server apps (like moodle)
[12:59] <ogra> well, if you have a standalone classroom server (ltsp) then you will be able to put edubuntu-server on top if you want ... we dont *require* you to use ubuntu-server for it
[12:59] <ogra> the initial idea was to have these pieces on the ubuntu-server CD
[12:59] <pips1> oh, there is/will be such a thing as "classrom server" ?!
[12:59] <ogra> but i dubt i can convince the server team to ship moodle
[13:00] <ogra> yes, but you will have to do multiple steps to get a classroom server in that scenarion
[13:00] <ogra> *scenario
[13:00] <ogra> i.e. get the ubuntu alternate CD to have ltsp and then put edubutu addon on top
[13:01] <ogra> ltsp will onyl be available through alternate in the future
[13:01] <ogra> not sure kubuntu will include it as it takes a bit of space for the 386 kernel
[13:01] <pips1> so in hardy, to get what you previously got with the edubuntu server.... you will need to start with the install of ubuntu-server... and then add the LTSP package? (if wanted) and edubuntu-server package (if wanted) ?
[13:01] <ogra> no
[13:02] <ogra> you use ubuntu-alternate+edubuntu-addon
[13:02] <ogra> but alternate wont be in shipit
[13:02] <ogra> so you need to download that
[13:02] <pips1> aha
[13:03] <ogra> ubuntu alternate will have everything we have now in the edubuntu-server iso apart from edubuntu artwork and edu apps
[13:03] <pips1> so ubuntu-server provides what (besides a different kernel)? LAMP?
[13:03] <ogra> ubuntu-server will provide a server platform for the webserver we need for moodle :)
[13:04] <ogra> later on i plan to have a edubuntu-content-filter package as well that will also use ubuntu-server as platform
[13:04] <ogra> actually al the implementations we'll do in the future that dont need a GUI should use ubuntu-server as platform
[13:05] <ogra> but you can indeed use a commandlie install of alternate as well :)
[13:05] <pips1> what about the whole directory server stuff-under-development (LDAP)... will that be available in the alternate-install-cd only?
[13:05] <ogra> edubuntu will become a module on top of the ubuntu/kubuntu CDs
[13:06] <ogra> no, that will be a part of ubuntu-server
[13:06] <ogra> not alternate
[13:06] <pips1> ok
[13:06] <flint> pips1, now that you got it, I will try to get this new Hardy ubuntu-server based distro approach...  Would this information be included in the documentation anywhere?
[13:06] <ogra> (at least i assume that, no idea what the server team will finally decide here, its hardy+1 anyway)
[13:06] <ogra> flint, its not *new*
[13:06] <pips1> oh, LDAP is hardy+1
[13:07] <pips1> well, makes sense, since hardy is LTS
[13:07] <ogra> ubuntu-server is around as long as edubuntu is (since breezy)
[13:07] <ogra> pips1, all that stuff is not in my hands ... the server team will decide (we can give suggestions and make requests though)
[13:08] <flint> ogra, good point.  It is different and I think quite modular and therefore interesting.
[13:08] <pips1> i think our slight confusion might stem from the fact that I (and perhaps flint) don't have experience with ubuntu-server (but only edubuntu and perhaps ubuntu).. :-)
[13:08] <flint> pips1, exactly.
[13:09] <ogra> yeah, ubuntu-server wasnt really promoted until now
[13:09] <ogra> it was there but we only got a real server team together during gutsy
[13:09] <pips1> I installed debian on my server :-)
[13:10] <ogra> (we hired all these people that cant cope with GUIs you know *g*)
[13:10] <pips1> hehe
[13:10] <ogra> pips1, why ?
[13:10]  * ogra uses ubuntu on all his servers 
[13:10] <flint> ogra, you were going on about this stuff in Boston, and I thought it was interesting then, and still do.  I suppose it is time to go grab the current copy of ubuntu-server.  GUIs are bad... :^)
[13:10] <ogra> flint, you should ahve grabbed a pressed CD in boston :)
[13:11] <ogra> there were plenty of the server CDs around
[13:11] <flint> Windows Icons Mice and Pointer Systems (WIMPS :^)  damn now I must download.
[13:11] <stgraber> ogra: they aren't available on shipit, are they ?
[13:11] <stgraber> I saw them on shop.c.c though
[13:11] <ogra> i think gutsy is
[13:11] <pips1> well, acutally, I have a ubuntu server (dapper) test box. and the productive server isn't hosted by me. they have debian by default. I could have chose ubuntu server I would have need to pay a small extra fee for that
[13:12] <pips1> (sorry, terrible spelling)
[13:13] <ogra> anyway, we're at 75min already, lets move on
[13:13] <pips1> last question
[13:13] <ogra> shoot
[13:14] <pips1> so if you want a classroom server with LTSP, *and* Moodle and, let's say, some CMS like drupal for the school website, what would a small school do?
[13:14] <ogra> get ubuntu-alternate and edubuntu addon
[13:14] <pips1> get the alternate-install version of the ubuntu-server and additionally the edubuntu-add-on, right?
[13:15] <pips1> ah, ok
[13:15] <pips1> all clear then
[13:15] <ogra> then install ubuntu alternate with ltsp ... put edubuntu addon in, convert the desktop through installing edubuntu-desktop and install edubuntu-content-server to get moodle/wiki
[13:15] <ogra> no, not ubuntu-server
[13:16] <ogra> ubuntu-alternate should fulfill your needs
[13:16] <ogra> we'll probably need to put the LAMP stack on the addon so you dont need to have ubuntu-server for that
[13:16] <pips1> I guess i just need to check out the ubuntu-server cd :-) that will clear my confusion up on what is provided by it :-)
[13:17] <pips1> ahhhh
[13:17] <pips1> ok, that makes sense, now
[13:17] <pips1> so the LAMP would be on the addon too. hmm
[13:17] <pips1> ok
[13:17] <flint> ogra, indeed thanks for the update...  anyway a LAMP install is a snap.
[13:17] <ogra> ubuntu-server is only used to get a minimal system up and have the LAMP stack available ... but you should only use it if you want edubuntu-content-server as standalone headless solution :)
[13:18] <ogra> if you want the old classrom-server behavior you use ubuntu-alternate
[13:18] <ogra> plud addon
[13:18] <ogra> *plus
[13:18] <pips1> headless solution, hehe
[13:18] <ogra> ok, lets move on :)
[13:18] <ogra> website is next ...
[13:18] <ogra> and news here ?
[13:19] <pips1> I can just repeat what I read from the two last meeting logs
[13:19] <ogra> btw pips1 thanks for the updates fo the gutsy release :)
[13:19] <ogra> great job
[13:19] <pips1> highvoltage has prepared a new drupal theme based on the theme that fridge uses
[13:20] <highvoltage> oh, hi guys, got to the office just a few minutes ago, didn't realise the meeting was the early one today
[13:20] <pips1> however, I read that he can't apply the new theme to the productive edubuntu.org site because of permission probs on the web server...
[13:20] <highvoltage> I got write access to the server again earlier this week (shew)
[13:20] <pips1> ah
[13:20] <pips1> good
[13:20] <highvoltage> pips1: yep, was fixed on monday
[13:21] <pips1> great.
[13:21] <highvoltage> haven't had any time since then do to anything about it
[13:21] <highvoltage> but at least the blocker is out of the way
[13:21] <pips1> ok
[13:21] <pips1> I also read that there was some discussion about welcoming interested people
[13:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock said that the bottom color of the gradient should be more orangy, so I think I'll just do that too before uploading a new one
[13:22] <pips1> riched proposed the idea to have an "ambassador" (better name needed)
[13:22] <highvoltage> is he here?
[13:22] <RichEd> pips1: yep ... jonathan is going to assume the role for the moment
[13:22] <RichEd> hi highvoltage :)
[13:22] <highvoltage> hi RichEd
[13:23] <pips1> highvoltage was asked to be the first edubuntu ambassador
[13:23] <pips1> ++ from me
[13:23] <highvoltage> :)
[13:23] <RichEd> we had a guinea pig last week who agreed to answer some profiling and fit questions ... I sent him an email
[13:23] <pips1> long live highvoltage, our ambassador!
[13:23]  * highvoltage will do some brushing up on social skills
[13:23] <ogra> and get a tie :)
[13:23] <ogra> :P
[13:24] <highvoltage> what? I always wear a tie!
[13:24] <RichEd> he said he would answer and give comments .. the idea is to "pioneer manually" and then get to a workkable web form with radio buttons ansd checkboxe
[13:24] <pips1> ah
[13:24] <RichEd> *workable *checkboxes
[13:24] <pips1> user-centered design, I like that
[13:25] <RichEd> so that the "ambassador role" becomes less question & answer and more respond to a formatted email
[13:25] <highvoltage> pips1: how is your php, and more specifically, how good are you at integrating with drupal?
[13:25] <highvoltage> pips1: would you be able to put together those forms?
[13:25] <RichEd> also, if people see a list of categories saying: are you able to do "xx yy zz" then they may connect with a category
[13:26]  * ogra knows flint just loves php :P
[13:26] <stgraber> I can give a hand with drupal php code
[13:26] <pips1> I assume you are talking about some sort of "refined" contact form that sends an email to you? or what?
[13:26] <stgraber> I already do that all the time with the QA modules for qa.stgraber.org
[13:26] <RichEd> and I also asked : if you had assistance and mentoring, would you be interested in "xx yy zz" as well, to appeal to peoples ambitions
[13:27] <pips1> stgraber great
[13:27] <pips1> there might not be much coding needed though...
[13:27] <pips1> drupal already provides a lot
[13:27] <pips1> drupal base
[13:27] <pips1> and perhaps contributed drupal modules
[13:28] <stgraber> yes, and writing the module by hand wouldn't take much more than an evening
[13:28] <ogra> i think tech details can be discussed off-meeting :)
[13:28] <pips1> right
[13:29] <pips1> sure, but it would be good to discuss the goal :-)
[13:29] <ogra> lets get finished :) (quick rundown of community/management from RichEd )
[13:29] <pips1> perhaps the goal is already clear, but I simply don't know because I wasn't there last meeting :-)
[13:30] <RichEd> well community is just the exercise described above ... to match volunteers to categories & work tasks
[13:30] <RichEd> in addition, reviewing launchpad groups ... as we said at last weeks meeting, a prune to revitalist the living branches
[13:30] <RichEd> revitalise ...
[13:31] <pips1> so you imagine some single entry-page with some sort of "wizard" / form, that will direct interested people to the correct (online) resources?
[13:31] <RichEd> so to recap, i'm mailing each group member list and manager saying that we have guidelines for education groups, and we expect:
[13:31] <RichEd> * a decent wiki page explaining the aims of their group
[13:32] <RichEd> * and attendance or representation at (at least) a monthly education / edubuntu meeting
[13:33] <pips1> ok
[13:33] <RichEd> pips1: the form will probably spit a mail to one person (the ambassador) ... and also send a welcome and thank you email to the person filling in the form
[13:33] <pips1> ok
[13:33] <RichEd> we do not really want to fully process automate it ... more just to get people thinking "hey i could do that"
[13:34] <pips1> I have a printout of the edubuntu related launchpad teams right next to me, with some notes i took on how many members and how active / stale they are.
[13:34] <RichEd> and to hook them into a quick "fill out and get response" action item
[13:34] <RichEd> ( pips1: ^ great ... can you mail that to me ? )
[13:35] <pips1> I could quickly type up a summary of my LP team notes and send them to you , if that is helpful
[13:35] <pips1> ok, consider it done :-)
[13:35] <RichEd> pips1: or add here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/Launchpad/Groups/Consolidate?highlight=%28launchpad%29
[13:36] <pips1> just to summarise quick: there are a total of 19 teams with "edubuntu" in the name. 10 of those teams are managed by people i recognize/know
[13:37] <RichEd> the problem we talked about last week regarding volunteering was that someone might suggest getting involved, be sent to the "community how you could help page" and in the real world think, I'll come back to look at that properly when I have got this damn LTSP working
[13:38] <RichEd> with the indended route, if someone talks about helping, we can send them an email with a "pop here to fill in a form" and "meet the ambasador"
[13:38] <RichEd> that should hook in more to getting an actual connection going
[13:38] <pips1> The LP teams where I don't know the team admin by name are all Local teams
[13:39] <RichEd> on the management side ... I hev been tasked with getting documentation together to influence deecision makers ... educational and OEM etc.
[13:39] <pips1> belgian bolivian brasil italian chile edubuntu-fr
[13:39] <RichEd> why ubuntu for education
[13:39] <RichEd> reference cases
[13:39] <RichEd> and an education solutions area off the ubuntu web site
[13:40] <RichEd> --- that's what i am busy with now ---
[13:40] <pips1> ic
[13:40] <RichEd> oh and some news .... ubuntu is selected on the shortlist for the russian schools tender ...
[13:41] <pips1> nice

[13:41] <RichEd> I'm delighted to inform You Ubuntu will be one of 4 Linux distros (Alt Linux, Scientific Linux, Mandriva.ru) used in Russian Schools Linux
[13:41] <RichEd> > > pilot.
[13:41] <RichEd> > >
[13:41] <RichEd> > > It is expected to install Linux in 3 different regions in order to
[13:41] <RichEd> > > evaluate opportunity to migrate majority of Russian schools (~600K PC)
[13:42] <RichEd> > > to FOSS.
[13:42] <RichEd> > > Ubuntu will be installed and tested in Tatarstan region (capital - Kazan city).Contract was won by Russian system integrator RBC-soft. Subcontractor > > responsible for Ubuntu installation and maintenance is VNIINS
[13:42]  * ogra applauds
[13:42] <ogra> note that we mostly oew RichEd for that, he went to the necessary meetings for that :)
[13:42] <ogra> *oew
[13:42] <RichEd> this is early release news, i'll find out more this week and discuss next week ...
[13:42] <ogra> *owe
[13:42] <ogra> gah
[13:43] <RichEd> ogra: mainly vlad ... not me
[13:43] <ogra> well, you travelled there to present edubuntu/ubuntu :)
[13:43] <RichEd> they want to partner / share with other countries ... so ogra will help introduce them to guadalinex
[13:44] <RichEd> note also that the region in question is turkish, not russian, so more language efforts = Tartar
[13:44] <pips1> Scientific Linux... I met one of the guys a couple of weeks ago
[13:45] <RichEd> --- and that's all from me for this week ---
[13:45]  * RichEd needs to get back to his doc work for a meeting coming up
[13:45] <RichEd> but would also like to make next weeks meeting a good community discussion ... pips1 ? follow up on the launchpad and ambassador stuff
[13:46] <pips1> ok, will do
[13:46] <RichEd> get an agreed "welcome email" and also "web form questions" that people are happy with
[13:47] <pips1>  ^^^ you are saying we should discuss those two points next meeting, right?
[13:47] <pips1> so we need two wiki pages with the drafts...
[13:47] <ogra> yeah, let him go back to work ... he's got  busy day :)
[13:48] <pips1> fine with me, need to go too (my wife needs help)
[13:49] <pips1> I'll send my LP team notes to RichEd later today
[13:49] <ogra> dont let your baby starve then :)
[13:49] <ogra> ok
[13:49] <pips1> she wont
[13:49] <ogra> any other business ? :)
[13:49] <ogra> going once ....
[13:49] <RichEd> pips1: i'll have a draft up on a wiki page ready for next week ... will send you an pre-view for early comment
[13:49] <ogra> going twice ....
[13:50] <pips1> RichEd: great
[13:50]  * ogra hits the gong ...
[13:50] <ogra> adjourned, thanks everybody
[13:50] <pips1> cheers
[13:50] <ogra> :)
[16:04] <bryce> morning
[16:06] <slangasek> bryce: oh, you didn't get the memo sent at 2am local time either, telling us there was no meeting today? :-)
[16:07] <bryce> dahhh
[18:40] <mr_pouit> @schedule
[18:40] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Dec 20:30: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting
[18:40] <mr_pouit> @schedule Paris
[18:40] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 13 Dec 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
[18:41] <seisen> @schedule New York
[18:41] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 05 Dec 15:30: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting
[18:56]  * pedro_ waves
[18:57]  * ogasawara is here
[18:59]  * bdmurray jumps up and down
[18:59] <pedro_> hah
[18:59]  * heno waves
[18:59] <heno> welcome all
[18:59] <heno> #startmeeting
[18:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:59. The chair is heno.
[18:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:00] <heno> I added a topic since the email went out
[19:01] <heno> [TOPIC] Dapper verification testing - does the QA team have any oustanding tests here?
[19:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Dapper verification testing - does the QA team have any oustanding tests here?
[19:01] <heno> bdmurray: I know you have been working on this
[19:01] <heno> and reported a failed test
[19:01] <heno> what's the status of that?
[19:02] <bdmurray> heno: I think there are a couple more I could do
[19:02] <bdmurray> I don't recall the failed test you are talking about
[19:04] <heno> bdmurray: bug 153152
[19:04] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153152 in hplip "[Gutsy SRU request] Fax utility not adding files to job." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153152
[19:04] <heno> looks like work is ongoing to re-fix it
[19:04] <heno> arg, gutsy, sorry
[19:05] <heno> nevermind :)
[19:05] <heno> bug 57233 and bug 164449 are the main blockers ATM AFAIK
[19:06] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 57233 in linux-source-2.6.15 "Minor revision 2.6.15-26 doesn't detect attached SCSI disks to LSI 1030ST" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57233
[19:06] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 164449 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 "undefined symbols in mptspi driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164449
[19:06] <heno> ogasawara, bdmurray: is any of this stuff we can test?
[19:06] <heno> or does it need special HW?
[19:07] <ogasawara> heno:  I don't have the hw for 57233
[19:07] <bdmurray> heno: nor I
[19:08] <heno> I have a conf call about this tomorrow. I'd appreciate a review of what's going on with those two bugs from ogasawara (technical background so I can grok the issues) and an overview from bdmurray on what testing we have done for 6.06.2 and what else we might contribute
[19:08]  * ogasawara nods
[19:08] <heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: could you email me your views on that today?
[19:08] <bdmurray> heno: no problem
[19:09] <ogasawara> heno: I'll send it after the meeting
[19:09] <heno> thanks!
[19:09] <heno> [TOPIC] No-package bug-day
[19:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  No-package bug-day
[19:09] <heno> How is it going? :)
[19:09] <pedro_> I'm getting flooded by bug email that's a good sign :-)
[19:10] <heno> the green on the page looks nice and the graph too :)
[19:10] <bdmurray> Pretty well, I think.
[19:10] <bdmurray> The graph shows some huge drops due to some work I did earlier this week
[19:10] <heno> seems people have made a head start
[19:10] <bdmurray> I've stopped that for today though so it only shows bug day work.
[19:11] <heno> ok
[19:11] <bdmurray> We had some help on the list from the LoCo teams last Friday
[19:11] <heno> what packages do these end up with mostly?
[19:11] <heno> just a rough idea
[19:11] <bdmurray> I'd guess kernel
[19:12] <bdmurray> However, I think I could write a query to find out better
[19:13] <heno> bdmurray: will the new kernel package appear automatically on the top 100 bug list or do you have to add it?
[19:13] <heno> It had 50 when I looked this morning
[19:13] <bdmurray> heno: It will have to be added and that was done yesterday
[19:14] <heno> ah, thanks
[19:15] <heno> bdmurray: to http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ ? I don't see it
[19:16] <bdmurray> In the "complete-graphs" section - http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/complete-graphs/linux/
[19:18] <heno> ok, the ng-graphs. must update my bookmarks :)
[19:18] <heno> [TOPIC] Selecting the next bug day theme. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus
[19:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Selecting the next bug day theme. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus
[19:18] <heno> should we be doing this at the meetings or is this done by decree of the bugmaster? ;)
[19:19] <bdmurray> I'm open to discussing it, but reserve the right to veto. ;)
[19:20] <Burgundavia> why not have people suggest this to bdmurrary and then he chooses?
[19:20] <Burgundavia> this suggestion stuff should probably happen out of band, to avoid wasting time at meetings
[19:21] <heno> Burgundavia: there is already a list of the key candidates at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus , but yeah
[19:21] <Burgundavia> just my 2 cents, butting out now
[19:21] <heno> ok, so moving on :)
[19:21] <heno> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO - any takers for these?
[19:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO - any takers for these?
[19:21] <bdmurray> I think it is important that the package that we pick have debugging documentation and a stock reply
[19:22] <ogasawara> bdmurray: +1
[19:22] <heno> bdmurray: good point
[19:22] <bdmurray> So with that in mind it might be worth letting the compiz people know that they are a candidate for a bug day but we would need some stuff from them
[19:22] <heno> I've added a point about wiki pages to  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO
[19:23] <ogasawara> I'll sign myself to some tasks on the the TODO
[19:23] <pedro_> I'll take the tags ones
[19:23] <ogasawara> cool, I'll take the 1st replies then
[19:23] <bdmurray> My intent with the To Do list was to have stuff for the community to do
[19:23] <bdmurray> Not y'all
[19:24] <pedro_> sourcercito: wanna take some ? :-)
[19:24] <heno> davmor2 also adds by email: "I would however like to ask if we could have a pop at improving the docs for the team. "
[19:24] <heno> sound like he's volunteering for that then ;)
[19:25] <heno> I wondered if we should add a 'was this page useful?' question to our pages
[19:25] <sourcercito> i'll take the tags task
[19:25] <heno> and set up a malone product to track improvement requests on the debugging pages
[19:25] <sourcercito> if it's ok
[19:26] <pedro_> sourcercito: it's totally ok, thanks you!
[19:26] <heno> then we can assign those bugs to the responsible devs :)
[19:26] <sourcercito> noprob, anytime
[19:26] <bdmurray> In regards to the tags task I had a larger idea about that
[19:26] <bdmurray> The tags for a package should be listed at it's debugging page and the Bugs/Tags page should have an include for specific packages
[19:27] <bdmurray> To reduce redundancy and number of places to edit things
[19:28] <heno> you still have some generic tags, but yeah that makes sense
[19:28] <heno> how many tags do we expect for a given package though?
[19:29] <bdmurray> heno: in regards to the was this helpful maybe a table a the bottom with || Helped || Didn't Help ||  ?
[19:29] <heno> the kernel will have up to 10 perhaps, nm 2-3?
[19:29] <heno> bdmurray: yeah, where would the links go?
[19:29] <bdmurray> I personally think that going forward tags will be a useful to divide a package with a lot of bugs into more managable subgroups.
[19:29] <bdmurray> s/useful/useful way/
[19:30] <heno> we need a voting plugin moin ...
[19:30] <heno> bdmurray: so you imagine the same tags being used on a range of packages then
[19:31] <bdmurray> So the number of tags could grow a fair bit - especially with the kernel
[19:31] <bdmurray> heno: I think some tags apply across packages (metabug) and some can subdivide a package (feisty2gutsy for update-manager)
[19:31] <bdmurray> The majority being useful to subdivide a package
[19:31] <heno> ok, as long as we are systematic about it, that sounds fine
[19:32] <bdmurray> sourcercito: If you just want to add the tags to the Bugs/Tags page though that would be great.
[19:32] <heno> should we visit this TODO list regularly at these meetings?
[19:33] <sourcercito> bdmurray, sure
[19:33] <heno> ok, next
[19:33] <heno> [TOPIC] UDS activity report posted here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Proceedings
[19:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  UDS activity report posted here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Proceedings
[19:34] <heno> This is just FYI, since I asked for input last time
[19:34] <pedro_> cool!
[19:34] <bdmurray> Looked good to me
[19:35] <ogasawara> same here
[19:35] <heno> [TOPIC] Moving kernel bugs to the 'linux' package - how is that going; how can others help? -- https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/
[19:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Moving kernel bugs to the 'linux' package - how is that going; how can others help? -- https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/
[19:36] <heno> 56 bugs so far
[19:36] <heno> that may grow
[19:36] <ogasawara> I'm sure it will
[19:36] <ogasawara> I've done most of the 'hardy-kernel-candidate' ones
[19:36] <ogasawara> there's just a handfull left that I'm waiting for responses on
[19:37] <heno> I'm surprised there weren't more. Did you close some along the way?
[19:37] <ogasawara> yah
[19:37] <bdmurray> ogasawara: did you look into disabling the l-s-2.6.24 package somehow?
[19:37] <ogasawara> bdmurray: haven't looked into that yet
[19:37] <heno> right, so these are ones where the sumbitters are active, cool
[19:38] <ogasawara> heno: there are a lot of existing bugs in Gutsy that still need to be addressed
[19:38] <heno> does apport DTRT now with package name?
[19:38] <ogasawara> no idea
[19:38] <bdmurray> I don't think apport reports kernel crashes yet
[19:39] <heno> ogasawara: indeed. Is there a plan/schedule for that; can other's help?
[19:39] <ogasawara> other's can definitely help
[19:39] <bdmurray> We should be able to automate some of that
[19:39] <ogasawara> I've got a stock reply for testing the Hardy kernel
[19:39] <heno> would a bug day be appropriate?
[19:39] <ogasawara> definitely
[19:39] <bdmurray> I think we should wait until there is a Live CD with 2.6.24 though
[19:39] <heno> I guess volunteers often find kernel bugs tricky to triage
[19:40] <ogasawara> bdmurray: agreed.  I think reporters are a little hesitant to manually install
[19:40] <bdmurray> When is Alpha 2 scheduled for?
[19:40] <pedro_> is that planned for an Alpha?
[19:40] <pedro_> jeje
[19:40] <ogasawara> Alpha2 should have the new Hardy kernel
[19:40] <heno> dec 19th?
[19:41] <bdmurray> That's unfortunate with the brak
[19:41] <bdmurray> s/brak/break/
[19:41] <ogasawara> oh yah
[19:41] <heno> 20th in fact
[19:41] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[19:43] <heno> we could do a kernel day the 19th ; it should be on the CDs by then
[19:44] <ogasawara> sounds good to me
[19:44] <heno> I'll make some periodic stabs at Gutsy kernel bugs as well (seeking guidance when needed)
[19:44] <heno> great, any other topics?
[19:45] <bdmurray> Any news on qa.ubuntu.com?
[19:46] <heno> I met with James yesterday and made the case for it again ...
[19:46] <heno> So, any day now :)
[19:46] <heno> We are not the only team having some trouble with this :/
[19:47] <heno> There are no real blockers apart from IS time
[19:47] <bdmurray> Okay.
[19:48] <bdmurray> I'm surprised at the quantity of bugs without a package coming in.
[19:48] <heno> bdmurray: I'll follow up with an email. could you send me a bullet point list of how you want to use the machines, for graphs queries etc.?
[19:49] <bdmurray> heno: sure
[19:49] <heno> bdmurray: coming in just now, or the existing pile?
[19:49] <bdmurray> It seems like every 5th bug or so doesn't have one
[19:50] <bdmurray> And assigning packages is not something I want to do all the time
[19:50] <ogasawara> bdmurray:
[19:50] <ogasawara> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
[19:50] <bdmurray> So I think we need to better advertise FindRightPackage and Help -> Report a problem
[19:50] <ogasawara> so I was noticing on there the "report a new bug" link defaults to just Ubuntu
[19:51] <bdmurray> Right, but before that I've put in the 2 things I just mentioned
[19:51] <heno> the LP page should have links to info and we should circulate links better
[19:51] <bdmurray> Maybe writing up Help -> Report a problem for the Fridge would help
[19:51] <bdmurray> Burgundavia: we could do that right?
[19:52] <heno> anyone care to comment on my mail to to bugsquad list about advertising these pages
[19:52] <heno> that's a good idea
[19:53] <bdmurray> heno: I personally try to educate bug reporters when I modify the bug and have added some of that to the Bugs/Replies page
[19:53] <bdmurray> Information about how to change the status of a bug and the importance of reporting it about a package etc
[19:54] <heno> yes, it could link to an even more generic page though
[19:54] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures IMO
[19:55] <bdmurray> I think that is reasonable for the domain specific stock replies
[19:55] <heno> and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs even
[19:55] <Burgundavia> bdmurray: absolutely
[19:56] <bdmurray> "Please include the information requested at BLAH which is part of the Debugging Procedures page at BLAH-BLAH"
[19:56] <heno> creating a header linking between the pages will help
[19:56] <bdmurray> s/page/series/
[19:57] <heno> For further information on debugging see <URL>
[19:58] <heno> Ok, so we are 1 min from an hour
[19:58] <heno> let's close the meeting here
[19:58] <heno> #endmeeting
[19:58] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:58.
[19:59] <heno> we can continue in #u-bugs and #u-testing
[19:59] <heno> thanks everyone!
[19:59] <pedro_> thanks!
[20:33] <oldmanstan> so... meeting? :)
[20:34] <posingaspopular> is it now oldmanstan?
[20:35] <seisen> hello gentlemen
[20:39] <posingaspopular> seisen: is there a specific agenda for this meeting?
[20:40] <oldmanstan> it's on the wiki somewhere
[20:40] <oldmanstan> hit up the fridge events calendar
[20:41] <seisen> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/47015/
[20:41]  * posingaspopular is looking at it atm
[20:42] <posingaspopular> how many more people are we waiting on?
[20:51] <mr_pouit> I guess everyone (4?) is here... :/
[20:51] <posingaspopular> is Cody supposed to be here mr_pouit?
[20:52] <mr_pouit> yes
[20:52] <mr_pouit> (well, at least he didn't say the contrary ^^)
[20:54] <posingaspopular> he's on in the -doc chan or -xubuntu so im going to assume he's not online
[20:57] <seisen> so are we having a meeting
[21:00] <posingaspopular> im okay with having a meeting. how many people normally show up? im usually afk during these meetings.
[21:01] <mr_pouit> well, not so many, so I guess we can start ;)
[21:01] <seisen> I have no idea this is my first one
[21:08] <mr_pouit> anyway, we can try to do it now
[21:13] <seisen> if I want to help with the Xubuntu Documentation you should I send an email too
[21:18] <oldmanstan> seisen: me :)
[21:19] <oldmanstan> you can send mail to the regular ubuntu docs list (just include xubuntu in the subject)
[21:19] <seisen> ok thanks does it matter I haven't worked on the documentation before
[21:20] <posingaspopular> nope!
[21:20] <oldmanstan> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
[21:20] <posingaspopular> seisen: join #ubuntu-doc as well
[21:20] <seisen> I'm on there right now
[21:20] <oldmanstan> that is the address seisen, register at lists.ubuntu.com
[21:20] <seisen> already ready registered
[21:20] <oldmanstan> ok cool
[21:21] <oldmanstan> yeah, as long as xubuntu is in the subject line somebody will see it
[21:21] <seisen> ok
[21:21] <oldmanstan> i also lurk on #xubuntu-devel, we talk about docs on there a lot
[21:22] <seisen> ok how do you become a xubuntu developer anyway
[21:22] <oldmanstan> contribute many patches and then they eventually give you access to the repos
[21:23] <seisen> ok I have no idea what you are talking about
[21:23] <mr_pouit> seisen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted ;)
[21:24] <oldmanstan> docs is a good place to start if you aren't up on packaging and such
[21:24] <seisen> thanks mr_pouit
[21:24] <seisen> ya I think I will stick with the docs for now
[21:25] <oldmanstan> ok, so no meeting i assume, peace all