/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/06/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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greg-g@time Detroit15:31
ubotuCurrent time in America/Detroit: December 06 2007, 10:31:49 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days15:31
greg-g@time UTC15:31
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: December 06 2007, 15:32:03 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days15:32
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
* pitti waves15:51
Riddellhi15:56
* ArneGoetje waves15:57
calchi15:58
evandhi15:58
asachi15:58
* ogra waves15:58
* mvo waves15:58
* lool waves back15:59
dholbachhi16:00
Riddelldo we have an agenda?16:00
dholbachthere's only one thing I want to talk about: how to make daily pings for http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ unnecessary16:02
Riddelldholbach: daily e-mails instead?16:02
Riddellmight get a bit ignorable I suppose16:02
pittibest solution: just do it16:02
dholbachyes and a bit irksome for me :)16:03
looldholbach: You could cron an email all N days for people actually having some sponsoring to do16:03
pittimore emails won't help, I'm afraid16:03
dholbachand it's just some bugs that are open for several weeks without any comment16:03
Hobbseedholbach: use the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ™16:03
pittiyou should already have one email from LP bugs in your inbox16:03
dholbachmost people do a good job16:03
pittiif you ignore that, you can as well ignore the nagmails16:04
loolpitti: I often miss it for some reason16:04
pittidoes anyone actually feel that he doesn't *know* that he needs to sponsor something?16:04
loolWhile I could easily prioritize the reminder ping16:04
seb128dholbach: I'm not sure that the daily IRC notice as any impact on people who don't look to their bugs16:04
pittii.e. I don't think that the notifications are the problem, it's about actually doiung it16:04
dholbachseb128: that's my experience too16:05
loolI personally discovered the sponsoring requests that I had to process via pings from Daniel; at least twice16:05
pittiif anyone feels that he misses the bug email, we should solve this with better email filtering instead16:05
pittinot by producing more email noise16:05
seb128lool: you should read bugs you get from launchpad ;-)16:05
* pitti urges people to look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFilter16:05
loolpitti: The thing is it's easy to miss an incremental update to your TODO, but it's more reliable to get a full dump of your TODO16:06
loolseb128: I do, but sometimes I think that I'm subscribed for another reason16:06
pittilool: just look at the page then16:06
pittilool: above mail explains how to filter by reason16:06
seb128lool: well, there is http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ where you can pull too16:06
loolpitti: (I've read the page)16:07
pittii. e. you can sort "you were subscribed because you need to sponsor this" separately (e. g. into your daily high-prio ubuntu folder instead of 'bugs')16:07
pittiif you guys want I add a specific example for sponsoring there16:07
pittibut it's straightforward to do16:07
loolI'll need to reorganize my mail reading then16:07
pittilool: do you feel that this would be sufficient or would you need a different kind of notifictaion/16:08
pitti?16:08
pittiall others, too16:08
asaci think its fine.16:08
asac(good enough)16:09
dholbachdo you feel that weekly/monthly "this bug is waiting in the queue for weeks now" summary is helpful?16:09
loolI was personally fine with Daniel's notification, especially since they helped me discover things I should have sponsored and didn't; I wasn't too bothered when I had nothing to sponsor, but still made the cron proposal as to avoid this; it seems I'm the only person not capable to prioritize sponsoring requests, so I'll simply fix this16:09
pittiemail has the advantage of being sticky until you delete it, and doesn't interrupt what you currently do, contrary to IRC pings16:09
dholbachlool: no no no, you're absolutely not16:09
loolYeah, I'd prefer an email in all cases16:09
lool(when given the choice with an IRC ping)16:10
cjwatsonwe have people who like one or the other; so just do both?16:10
seb128the idea is also that dholbach should not have to ping people on IRC ;-)16:10
* pitti prefers email, too; sponsorings are urgent, but only urgent as in 'do it today', not 'drop what you do and do it instantly'16:10
loolcjwatson: Some people hate the other it seems :)16:10
ograseb128, he could hire a cheap berlin student :P16:10
pittilool: oh, I wouldn't mind IRC pings; as long as I know that I am in control of bug mail I can just ignore it :)16:10
dholbachand it's ok if it takes a while to get the review/sponsoring done, sometimes patches are hairy or need to go through a couple of iteration16:10
dholbachiterations16:11
dholbachthe problem is that some patches go uncommented for weeks and months16:11
seb128ogra: isn't dholbach that already? ;-)16:12
Riddelldholbach: how is your list made?16:12
dholbachRiddell: all bugs of the list links on the page, minus the 'incomplete ones'16:12
* lool thinks he didn't want to bump the priority of these bugs over the others nor split them out in their own queue; but it seems it's the only sane thing to do16:12
ograseb128, lol16:12
dholbachRiddell: "responsible" = subscribers+assignee-(people not in ubuntu-dev)16:13
loolAdmitting I miss sponsoring subscriptions and need to special case them is admitting that I don't read my bug mail properly to some level16:13
pittilool: don't worry; I guess most of us (except seb128 of course) can't keep up with their package bug mail16:13
pittibut all of us should keep up with bug mail which is sent because someone subscribed you16:14
dholbachI'd like to point out that the discussion is not about lool and how he reads bug email. He generally does a good job on sponsoring bugs. I'd like to hear opinions from others too.16:14
seb128pitti: I've stopped replying to every single of those now, I'm just read them and let pedro do most of the triage ;-)16:14
* seb128 hugs pedro_16:14
slangaseklool: well, there doesn't seem to be any mail notification telling me that I've been subscribed to the bug as a sponsor, so "properly reading" the mail seems to *require* pitti's recommended mail filtering16:15
looldholbach: But then if I'm the only one liking the system, I should be the one defending it or change my habbits16:15
* pedro_ hugs seb128 back 16:15
dholbachlool: you're the only one who spoke up :)16:15
cjwatsonsponsorship bugs are, of course, not the only classes of bugs that developers need to be reminded about16:15
slangasek(which precludes imap+mutt as a mail solution for work mail, which I'm not currently keen to switch away from)16:15
loolslangasek: I actually show the headers which pitti speaks of in Mutt when reading the mail :)16:15
cjwatsonrelease-critical bugs are another rather obvious one16:15
slangaseklool: heh, ok.16:15
pittislangasek: (I do use imap+mutt+offlineimap, what's the problem with it?)16:15
cjwatsonand bugs that people have effectively asked to be reminded about, by means of targeting them to a milestone16:15
slangasekpitti: no procmail in the pipeline?16:16
pittislangasek: well, that's done on the server16:16
pitti(OT here, sorry; will move that to #u-devel)16:16
cjwatsonit seems that part of the objection to reminders about sponsorship bugs is that it elevates them above more important things, but perhaps the real problem there is that we don't have a routine mechanism for reminding people about the more important things16:17
looldholbach: Ah what about reminding about *old* bugs?16:17
looldholbach: IOW, checking since how long the bug should have been sponsored, and send a reminder in this case?16:17
loolcjwatson: I fully agree it would be a nice addition16:18
dholbachlool: that'd involve parsing of the activity log of the bug to automate it16:18
pitticjwatson: or a standard way of prioritizing bugs16:18
cjwatsonwe were just talking about that on the distro team leads call16:18
cjwatsonand I expect we'll talk about it some more on the call tomorrow to firm up procedures for bug nominations16:18
pittisome people use tags, some (like me) use 'in progress' for the ones they are tackling next, some have it in their head, etc.16:18
looldholbach: Can you simplify that if it's about bugs which have a patch since long and are to be sponsored?16:19
cjwatsonpitti: agreed16:19
dholbachlool: I'll think about how to achieve that16:19
Riddelllool: why?  I also want to know about patches which have appeared recently16:19
loolWould it be possible to use the Assignee and simply send people a list of bugs they are assigned to once a month?16:19
pittiRiddell: isn't that what bug mail is for?16:20
dholbachRiddell: just as a measure to find out which bugs I really need to prod people :)16:20
Riddellpitti: sure, but things are easily missed there16:20
loolRiddell: Only for the *reminder*; you'd still get the current subscription notifications16:20
dholbachlool: the problem with using assignees is that nobody else will dare to work on the bug and do it instead of you16:20
pittiRiddell: true that16:20
dholbachit's like a "lock"16:20
cjwatsonI think assignees *should* be used for release-critical bugs16:20
cjwatsonnot necessarily for everything, but for things that have to get done, somebody should generally be on the hook for them16:21
* slangasek nods16:21
* bryce nods16:21
dholbachOK16:21
looldholbach: But then if you assigned someone for sponsoring, certainly that person should do it and not another, otherwise you risk work duplication?16:21
pittiagreed16:21
cjwatsonthat doesn't necessarily go for sponsorship though16:21
pittithat works well with merges already, after all16:21
loolPerhaps instead of not using the assignee for sponsoring, we could use the assignee and reassign if he's too busy?16:22
dholbachlool: we had cases where I assigned bugs to people of the distro team and community folks would have done them during the week they were sitting in the queue16:22
looldholbach: In which case it's possible that two people reviewed the same patches?16:22
dholbachit's only natural to think "ok, the assignee is surely going to do it"16:22
pittiright16:23
loolI personally wouldn't take other bugs than mine from the list you sent on IRC16:23
dholbachthe sponsoring queue (for community developers) is driven by a general "hey I'm interested in working on this"16:23
dholbachnot driven by "somebody decided that I should do it"16:23
dholbachso people triage the queue and work on things16:23
dholbachthat's a big difference16:23
loolOk, then perhaps have the bugs open for anyone early, don't subscribe individuals, then assign somebody if it takes too long?16:23
dholbachI like to make people aware of them early so they have a chance of getting done quickly16:24
loolLike first week is common queue, no assignee, second week pick an assignee because it shouldn't wait too long16:24
dholbachI don't feel that "wait until somebody takes care of the bug" is going to fix the problem16:24
dholbachthe assignee thing didn't work either - we still had bugs sitting there for weeks16:24
pittiand the current round-robin(ish) approach also ensures that we share the load16:24
loolBut it's easier to prod people who are assigned a bug16:25
dholbachthat's what I use the sponsoring page for16:25
Riddelldholbach: what's actually wrong with daily pings?16:25
dholbachit lists the developers who are aware of the bug16:25
dholbachRiddell: it's work for me and it still doesn't work for some people16:25
dholbachit's not an optimal process16:25
dholbachI mean I don't mind doing it, but reminding somebody 5 or 6 times of a patch - I don't feel that scales once we have more contributors16:26
looldholbach: I didn't quite get the exact drawbacks of my latest proposal which are not shared by the other proposals?16:26
ogradholbach, you could add a function to ubotu :)16:26
* ogra hides16:26
brycehow many bugs need sponsoring week to week?16:26
loolbryce: dholbach told us it would increase sharply with the outreach program16:27
cjwatsonwhat we were discussing in the team leads call was having each team lead bring up assigned release-critical bugs on a weekly basis in their meetings16:27
cjwatsonwe could add sponsored bugs to that, since after all we've committed Canonical time to code review16:27
dholbach275 mails on ubuntu-main-sponsors last month, 700 on ubuntu-universe-sponsors16:27
dholbachbryce: ^16:27
seb128dholbach: mails, or different threads?16:28
dholbachmails16:28
dholbachcjwatson: so a weekly status mail with long-standing bugs would probably help?16:28
pittiATM it's maybe one or two bugs a week?16:29
pitti(per assignee)16:29
looldholbach: (I personally feel sorry that you have to script things around launchpad and ping us manually; which is why I proposed using the assignee field)16:29
pittidholbach: can your list be sorted by age? i. e. time since you assigned the bug to someone?16:29
looldholbach: But perhaps this needs more specialized pages in launchpad?16:30
dholbachlool: as I said... it's not your fault, not at all and I tried the assignee thing before; some MOTUs were really unhappy about it because the lock on the bug was taken for too long16:30
dholbachpitti: that'd require parsing of the activity log - I'll wrap my head around it16:30
cjwatsondholbach: perhaps16:30
seb128is anybody finding weekly mails useful? I think a webpage with the summary is better for that sort of thing16:30
pittidholbach: ok; nevermind if it's too complicated16:30
dholbachpitti: I'll think about it16:30
slangasekseb128: polling-- :)16:30
seb128too many mails-- ;-)16:30
loolseb128: I wouldn't visit every week16:30
cjwatsondholbach: I'd certainly like to have something whereby we could ensure some kind of consistency across team leads about what we're nagging about16:31
pitti--weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them16:31
loolI would have to write a cron sending me an email with the URL to that page :)16:31
seb128I tend to not read all those weekly mails on the debian lists16:31
seb128just hit delete on them and find them annoying16:31
cjwatsonI'm not sure *everybody* has to visit it - having each person's manager look at it weekly or so could do16:31
dholbachcan we maybe get quick action items out of the discussion? I don't feel this should take up all the time of the meeting16:31
cjwatsonand for everyone else it could be something you look at when feeling industrious16:31
loolseb128: I find them great!16:32
seb128ok, so as pitti said "--weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them"16:32
dholbachok... I'll wrap my head around "age of the patch" idea16:32
looldholbach: Should we list proposals?  and if we don't get consensus vote for them?16:32
cjwatsonI think we should institute weekly mails and ensure that they can be trivially procmailed, and then review in a few weeks to find out who's still actually reading them16:33
dholbachand let you know about it - up until then I could do those weekly mails instead16:33
dholbachok... I'll take care of that then16:33
loolThanks Daniel!16:33
dholbachde rien16:33
* pitti hugs dholbach16:34
asacsounds good16:34
* dholbach hugs y'all16:34
* mvo hugs dholbach16:34
cjwatsonwhat's next on the agenda16:34
cjwatson?16:34
Riddellwe have an agenda?16:34
cjwatsonI was wondering16:34
Riddell65 merges to go http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html16:34
cjwatsonone item which was raised was the purpose of this meeting16:34
pitti9216:34
Riddelloh yes, I was reading the wrong one16:35
cjwatsonsince we have a lot more Canonical distro staff than we used to, we no longer drag everyone into a giant meeting on a weekly basis16:35
Riddellthat's a lot of merges16:35
cjwatsonand instead we have smaller team meetings16:35
cjwatsonthe majority of those are public16:35
cjwatsonis it necessary to have this "everyone" meeting any more, and if so, what can people expect to get out of it?16:36
bryceare there going to be many topics that need discussion with the whole development team?16:36
cjwatsonbryce: not many, though the sponsorship one above wasn't a bad example16:37
pittiit's now too infrequent to be useful IMHO; few things can wait for a month16:37
pittibut right, above example just proved me wrong16:37
pittidiscussion about policy and effective working can wait that long16:38
cjwatson(hoary kickoff!)16:38
loolI personally find myself attending too many meetings along the week, so would enjoy smaller + shorter meetings; a high number of people might imply longer meetings16:38
* dholbach agrees with lool16:39
cjwatsonif a meeting isn't useful, it shouldn't be happening, certainly16:39
dholbachit's just important to have summaries of those meetings, so you can find out about things which happened in a meeting you weren't in16:39
pittiso maybe we should only actually have it if there's an agenda16:39
loolOr schedule a meeting each time we need to discuss something in common16:40
loolWhich is the same :)16:40
cjwatsonthe platform meetings have been half-private half-public, but in practice there's been very little that needed to be private there, so perhaps we can simply have all of those on #ubuntu-meeting16:40
asacack16:41
cjwatsonI think most of the other team meetings are entirely public16:41
lool+116:41
bryceagreed16:41
asacactually i think the idea to have small meetings open for everyone is the right way.16:41
cjwatsonso if we simply put them all on the Fridge and removed the "everyone" meeting, would that work?16:41
pitti+116:41
bryce+116:41
asac+116:41
pittiwe can still invite guys from other teams to a particular meeting if needed16:41
ogra+116:42
cjwatsonand indeed many of you do already cross over16:42
cjwatsonwhich is excellent16:42
seb128+116:42
tedg++ ;)16:42
cjwatsonthis may be the least unpopular proposal in some time. Does anyone dissent? :-)16:43
mdz_sorry, I've been having network difficulties16:43
* lool . o O ( Non-democratic vote spotted! )16:44
cjwatsonmdz_: [proposal: cancel this meeting, make all the other team meetings public unless there's a specific reason, put them all on the Fridge. No dissent so far ...]16:44
calc+1 (for having meetings in public16:44
loolcjwatson: On a related topic, can we rename the meeting to something else than "Community..."?16:44
* calc was distracted by a phone call16:45
cjwatsonlool: well, if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to be renamed16:45
loolPerfect16:45
mdz_cjwatson: apart from the fridge dysfunction, I don't see an issue16:45
mdz_that sounds like more or less current practice16:45
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Riddellteam leads to e-mail fridge-devel with meeting times?16:46
* Hobbsee wonders if someone random will yell "i object"16:46
cjwatsonwho are fridge-devel right now?16:47
Riddellnixternal does my calendar updates16:48
Riddellotherwise corey, mrevell and nali seem active16:49
cjwatsonok16:49
Riddellany other business?16:50
cjwatsonnothing from me16:53
slangasekpublic service announcement: DebianImportFreeze deadline is one week away, please finish your merges, if you need help merging all the packages still on your list then please ask. :)16:55
cjwatson+116:57
cjwatsonsome people have quite a few, while others have capacity16:57
ArneGoetjeanything else or is the meeting adjourned?17:08
RiddellArneGoetje: I think you're free to go :)17:12
ArneGoetjeRiddell: thanks. Good night!17:16
cjwatsonwhoops, I thought somebody had adjourned the meeting but nobody did. Adjourned. :-)17:18
asacbye ;)17:20
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