[00:54] <bspencer> Mithrandir: lool : StevenK   Question about the PPA.  I was understanding the PPA to be used with Gutsy.  Is that right?
[01:17] <StevenK> bspencer: Right.
[02:27] <bspencer> Mithrandir: lool  ping
[02:27] <StevenK> bspencer: Mithrandir is on holidays, and it has to be something like 2am for lool. What's up?
[02:27] <bspencer> Howdy StevenK 
[02:27]  * StevenK waves
[02:27] <bspencer> I was trying to understand the PPAs
[02:28] <bspencer> gutsy PPA and hardy PPA
[02:28] <bspencer> actually my goal is to know what the hildon-desktop story is
[02:28] <bspencer> we are trying to find the ubuntu-mobile hildon-desktop
[02:28] <StevenK> hildon-desktop was uploaded to Hardy, and also to the Gutsy ubuntu-mobile PPA.
[02:29] <bspencer> so they are the same now and forever?
[02:29] <StevenK> They are not.
[02:29] <bspencer> there is a Hardy PPA curiously enough, which has hildon-desktop
[02:29] <StevenK> Which means a Hardy version was also uploaded to the PPA for some reason - I suspect so it actually existed.
[02:30] <StevenK> PPAs are very easy to change, and while Hardy is in development, it is also fairly easy to change
[02:31] <bspencer> OK.  So if we are going to create a Moblin-OSV compliance spec, we will be looking at the Gutsy-PPA hildon-desktop since that is the only thing that works in an image today. 
[02:31] <bspencer> if/when we move to Hardy based images we can use that.
[02:33] <StevenK> Right. Which makes it simple since they are both the same version. They can be updated in lockstep if you so wish it.
[02:34] <bspencer> got it
[02:34] <bspencer> thanks for the input
[02:34] <StevenK> No problem.
[02:34]  * StevenK runs off to lunch, but with no idea of what to eat.
[07:12] <dholbach> good morning
[08:43] <lool> StevenK: Around?
[08:44] <lool> StevenK: I just wanted to tell you that I'm switching from "let's kick modest and its deps until we have a build path and it runs" mode to "quiet" mode, where I'll basically work on other stuff.  I think the tinymail/modest blockers are solved, but please ping me if you meet any new one
[08:45] <lool> I'll pursue and bridge the upstream discussions I started when needs be
[08:46] <StevenK> Hurray
[08:46] <StevenK> I find that modest hangs and mis-behaves on my Q1
[08:47] <lool> StevenK: With gtkhtml?
[08:47] <lool> StevenK: You absolutely need to use tinymail SVN though
[08:47] <lool> The version you were basing of had bugs here
[08:48] <lool> s/basing of/basing on
[12:25] <asac> lool: is there a package or bzr branch somewhere?
[12:25] <asac> (or a backtrace of the crashes you got with mozembed :))
[12:36] <lool> asac: I didn't investigate them further; upstream says it's experimental code in modest
[12:37] <lool> asac: I wasn't under the impression that they would be passionate about getting mdoest to work nicely with mozembed
[12:37] <lool> asac: And there are like millions of warnings and errors on startup, so it would make sense to fix these instead IMO
[12:37] <lool> asac: But if you like to build it, it's not too hard
[12:38] <lool> asac: You'll need to build tinymail out of SVN with the single line change to configure.ac to add the unstable CFLAGS, and modest is about the same amount of changes
[12:38] <asac> currently tinymail bails out here in camel
[12:38] <asac> ../libtinymail-camel/bs/libbodystruct.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
[12:38] <lool> SVN tinymail?
[12:38] <asac> have you seen?
[12:38] <lool> No
[12:38] <asac> i use --with-platform=mozembed
[12:38] <asac> aeh
[12:38] <asac> maemo
[12:38] <asac> :)
[12:38] <lool> Big update it seems
[12:38] <lool> I just svn uped
[12:39] <asac> ok --enable-imap-part-fetch
[12:39] <asac> i need i guess (reading the svn log)
[12:40] <asac> lool: did modest upstream say that mozembed is experimental or gtkhtml?
[12:40] <lool> mozembed backend is experimental in modest
[12:41] <lool> And they recommend gtkhtml and it's what they use for maemo
[12:41] <lool> asac: I get the same error you do
[12:41] <lool> /usr/bin/ld: ../libtinymail-camel/bs/libbodystruct.a(bodystruct.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
[12:41] <lool> That's the actual error
[12:42] <lool> Building with -fPIC now
[12:43] <asac> let me know
[12:43] <lool> ../../libtinymail-camel/.libs/libtinymail-camel-1.0.so: undefined reference to `camel_folder_get_cache_filename'
[12:43] <lool> But at least it doesn't bail out in the same ugly way
[12:44] <asac> i don't understand why to add -fPIC explicitly
[12:44] <lool> I think it's needed on amd64
[12:44] <asac> ok i will get r3066
[12:47] <asac> wow ... the modest svn log looks like they don't care
[12:47] <asac> * fixes, speedups
[12:47] <asac> * fixes
[12:47] <asac> * fixes all around
[12:47] <asac> lol
[12:47] <asac> :)
[12:47] <lool> Yeah :-(
[12:47] <StevenK> The debian/changelog is the same
[12:47] <lool> asac: Fortunately, there's the debian/changelog
[12:47] <asac> you really want to use that in mobile?
[12:48] <asac> ok tinymail r3066 builds \o/
[12:49] <asac> oh modest already integrated the gtkmozembed_glue.cpp stuff
[12:49] <asac> nice
[12:50] <lool> asac: Yeah, almost everything merged
[12:50] <lool> They didn't drop the .c file though
[12:50] <lool> But modest is using some old ABI we don't have and I think it needs big work to be fully working
[12:51] <asac> ABI or API ?
[12:53] <asac> configure: error: you need to have either wpeditor or libwpeditor-plus installed
[12:53] <asac> ??
[12:54] <lool> asac: ABI
[12:54] <lool> asac: Like the deprecated Gtk+ signals
[12:54] <lool> It's not visible in the API (and you can't easily check in configure, especially when cross compiling) and checking at runtime would be impracticatl
[12:54] <asac> ah
[12:55] <lool> asac: You need wpeditor-dev
[12:55] <asac> where is that?
[12:55] <asac> not in hardy for me
[12:55] <lool> asac: And you should remove libwpeditor-plus* if you have them
[12:55] <asac> i have nothing :)
[12:55] <lool> asac: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/packages/wpeditor/2.12-0ubuntu1/hardy/
[12:55] <asac> thanks
[12:56] <lool> asac: If you're not running latest p.u.c crack, you're not "in"
[12:56] <agoliveira> asac: Hi. Do you know any "Openoffice hacking for dummies"? I'm looking at the code and don't even know where to start. This thing uuencoded (God know why) is freaking me out.
[12:57] <asac> installed ... no going ahead
[12:57] <asac> agoliveira: i am not openoffice :) ... mozilla is my domain
[12:57] <agoliveira> asac: Ooops, indeed, sorry :)
[12:57] <asac> np
[12:58] <asac> lool: hildon-help or osso-help ?
[12:58] <asac> where to get that?
[12:58] <StevenK> agoliveira: calc is the guy is you want
[12:58] <agoliveira> StevenK: Ah, thanks.
[12:58] <lool> asac: I don't think you need anything
[12:58] <asac> lool: nm ... i found libhildonhelp-dev
[12:58] <asac> well modest with platform=maemo ... needs it
[12:59] <lool> Yeah, no -help, but libhd-help-dev indeed
[12:59] <lool> (I dpkg -led \*help)
[13:01] <asac> ... + mime + fm :) ... now its building
[13:07] <asac> lool: http://paste.ubuntu.com/2506/
[13:07] <asac> otherwise it fails because of fatal warnings
[13:11] <asac> wow ... modest starts
[13:12] <asac> modest works :-D
[13:15] <asac> now lets see with mozembed
[13:21] <lool> asac: Of course it works!  You didn't see my screenshot?  :)
[13:22] <lool> asac: I've sent a patch for the has_error thing already; I thought it was merged, grmblb
[13:22] <lool> asac: But Dirk is aware of it, so hopefully should be fixed soon
[13:35] <asac> k
[14:12] <lool> asac: I've sent the fpic issue and the subsequent undefined symbol error to tinymail-devel@; I couldn't solve them rapidly enough, and I don't want to dig further since both are the result of recent changes
[14:13] <asac> sure
[16:55] <asac> lool: who is the modest maintainer?
[16:55] <asac> (who did you send the patch to?)
[16:56] <agoliveira> asac: I am a modest mainteiner!
[16:56] <agoliveira> asac: Oh, you mean *the* modest mainteiner :)
[16:57] <asac> the upstream maintainer i mean :)
[16:57] <asac> ;)
[16:57] <lool> asac: To Dirk, as found in Debian changelog
[16:57] <smagoun> asac: Dirk-Jan Binnema@nokia
[16:57] <lool> asac: I'm sending stuff to modest-devel@ now though
[16:58] <agoliveira> asac: I couldn't let the joke oprtunity pass ;)
[16:58] <lool> agoliveira: :)
[16:58] <asac> agoliveira: yeah :)
[16:58] <davidm> Almost time to start our weekly meeting...
[16:59] <smagoun> lool: Is there a working archive for modest-devel?
[17:00] <ian_brasil> i thought modest used tiny? if so the maintainer is p van hoof i think http://pvanhoof.be/blog/
[17:00] <lool> smagoun: I don't think so, I wondered the same :-(
[17:00] <davidm> Are we ready to start?
[17:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is davidm.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:01] <davidm> Action items from last week, stating from the top
[17:01] <davidm> [topic] lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it.
[17:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. 
[17:01] <davidm> lool, any luck?
[17:03] <lool> davidm: No, I didn't look at it
[17:03] <davidm> lool, carry it over until next week?
[17:03] <bfiller> davidm: horace from Intel took and look and could only reproduce part of it
[17:03] <lool> I expect to have little time to look at it next week, but will resume work on it the following week
[17:04] <lool> davidm: Yes
[17:04] <davidm> lool, can you exchange email with horace to see what he knows?
[17:04] <bfiller> lool: horace checked in a fix into moblin hildon-desktop. Isn't he supposed to commit changes to launchpad?
[17:04] <lool> asac: [ Removing make installed files fixed the second tinymail build failure for me (see tinymail-devel) ]
[17:05] <lool> bfiller: Bah
[17:05] <davidm> [action] carry over lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. until Dec 20th.
[17:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. until Dec 20th. 
[17:05] <lool> davidm: We discussed this shortly with bfiller, and it seems Horace addressed another bug, but not the bug Bill is seeing and Horace and I don't
[17:05] <davidm> OK
[17:05] <davidm> Thanks
[17:05] <lool> bfiller: They should IMO
[17:05] <davidm> new topic then
[17:05] <lool> bfiller: Why they don't escapes me
[17:06] <lool> Where's Bob?
[17:06] <davidm> [topic] bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be 
[17:06] <lool> Where's Horace?
[17:06] <bfiller> lool: Horace is in China I think
[17:06] <mawhalen> Bob Spencer?  
[17:06] <mawhalen> He is in China working right now -
[17:06] <mawhalen> It's the middle of the night
[17:06] <mawhalen> Rusty is there too
[17:06] <davidm> There is some meeting today that is keep Don Johnson from attending today.
[17:06] <lool> Is Moblin having weekly meetings where we should discuss using bzr?
[17:06] <bfiller> davidm: I have temp solution for problem, waiting for hildon-desktop problems to be resolved
[17:07] <lool> mawhalen: Thanks for the info
[17:07] <davidm> bfiller, Do I need to carry over again or are you good? 
[17:07] <bfiller> davidm: I will follow up directly with bspencer, so I you don't need to carry over
[17:07] <davidm> OK, thanks
[17:07] <agoliveira> mawhalen: Tell them to try the marinated snake! :)
[17:08] <mawhalen> and scorpions
[17:08] <davidm> [topic] Don_Johnson to get this written up (USB info) with some use cases and put it on the mail list.
[17:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Don_Johnson to get this written up (USB info) with some use cases and put it on the mail list. 
[17:08] <davidm> I'll take this, Don sent out the USB info and I am having it tested.  We have the client side files now and will see how it goes. 
[17:08] <asac> lool: ok i added the (new/current) modest and tinymail patches to: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/xulrunner/xulrunner-porting ... as you said modest was completely broken :)
[17:09] <davidm> So I'm going to drop this action as complete.
[17:09] <agoliveira> asac: Meeting now.
[17:09] <davidm> I'm going to skip "bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables" since neither of them are here
[17:10] <lool> asac: Well upstream said that
[17:10] <davidm> [topic] bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
[17:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works 
[17:10] <asac> sorry for the interruption
[17:10] <davidm> asac, NP
[17:10] <lool> asac: Modest needs a lot of non-mozembed fixing and upstream says the mozembed part is experimental, so it seems we should focus on gtkhtml as a starter (given current constraint of the mobile team)
[17:11] <davidm> whoops both are not here either. Next topic then
[17:11] <lool> Carry on?
[17:11] <davidm> [action] carry over to next week: bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables
[17:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over to next week: bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables 
[17:11]  * agoliveira thinks that's going to be a quick meeting :)
[17:11] <davidm> [action] continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
[17:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works 
[17:11]  * lool goes filing surprize agenda items
[17:11] <davidm> [topic] smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport
[17:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport 
[17:11] <smagoun> Working on it today. Nothing to report, other than my current build crashes
[17:11]  * agoliveira looks very hard towards Paris...
[17:12] <davidm> carry the action forward?
[17:12] <smagoun> haven't had a chance to root-cause yet
[17:12] <smagoun> davidm: sure
[17:12] <davidm> [action] carry over smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport. In progress.
[17:12] <MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport. In progress. 
[17:12] <davidm> next action then?
[17:13] <davidm> [topic] kyleN to test h-i-m and get back to StevenK on status Mobile Application spec: (issue documentation is light)
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  kyleN to test h-i-m and get back to StevenK on status Mobile Application spec: (issue documentation is light) 
[17:13] <kyleN> I haven't had a chance to try this out yet. Our project is currently expecting to use SCIM though.
[17:13] <davidm> OK, carry over then, or drop?
[17:13] <kyleN> it's onmy list to check, so I'd say drop it from the carry over
[17:14] <davidm> OK, will do.
[17:14] <davidm> The next topic is for Amit and he is on holiday so it's a skip
[17:14] <davidm> [topic] amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers
[17:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers 
[17:15] <davidm> I don't know if this got done or not.
[17:15] <davidm> [action] carry over amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers
[17:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers 
[17:15] <davidm> That concludes prior actions.
[17:15] <davidm> New topics next
[17:15] <davidm> [topic] smagoun - Better tracking of LPIA build failures (correct versions of evince, freetype1, tasks, probably others didn't get into gutsy/lpia because of various build failures: [WWW] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/lpia/+builds)
[17:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun - Better tracking of LPIA build failures (correct versions of evince, freetype1, tasks, probably others didn't get into gutsy/lpia because of various build failures: [WWW] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/lpia/+builds) 
[17:15] <smagoun> We've discovered - the hard way - that a number of LPIA builds failed, so correct versions of certain packages didn't make it into gutsy. For example, the gutsy/lpia versions of freetype1, evince, + tasks are out-of-date.
[17:16] <smagoun> We'd like to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. What's the best way to monitor LPIA builds to make sure they're sync'ed with i386?
[17:17] <davidm> agoliveira, lool any thoughts?
[17:17] <agoliveira> davidm: Sorry, no. I don't know how this works. SOmeone from the build team is needed I guess.
[17:18] <agoliveira> I remember that Tollef was looking into this.
[17:18] <smagoun> He's on holiday this week, right?
[17:18] <davidm> Yes and I don't know where it's at, Tollef is on holiday, so I'll look into it and query the build team
[17:18] <davidm> smagoun, yes he is.
[17:19] <davidm> [action] davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync.
[17:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync. 
[17:19] <davidm> I'll also query tollef but he is on a real vacation and pretty much out of contact.
[17:19] <davidm> next topic
[17:19] <lool> (I'm personally of the opinion that this is regular QA)
[17:19] <lool> (On our archive)
[17:20] <agoliveira> I sent him an email days ago: no response.
[17:20] <lool> It should be covered by some existing process or docs (I would be surprized if it isn't), but I'm not too familiar to tell which
[17:20] <smagoun> I figured it might be a special case since LPIA is in ports.ubuntu.com
[17:20] <davidm> lool thanks, I'll check
[17:21] <davidm> [topic] ChickenCutlass - Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet.
[17:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  ChickenCutlass - Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet. 
[17:21] <ChickenCutlass> I just wanted to get some info from Intel about how the decision was made to use a custom battery applet as well as acpid and not use the existing gnome-power-manager
[17:21] <ChickenCutlass> I think this might be a question for ToddBrandt 
[17:22] <ChickenCutlass> There seems to be a bunch of duplicate code
[17:22] <ChickenCutlass> more to maintain
[17:22] <davidm> ToddBrandt, comments?
[17:22] <davidm> I see he's in the room but I'm not sure if he is watching.
[17:23] <bfiller> can anyone from Intel ping him?
[17:23] <smagoun> >14 hours 20 minutes
[17:23] <mawhalen> I will
[17:23] <smagoun> don't think he's here...
[17:24] <davidm> ChickenCutlass, can you send him an email with your question?
[17:24] <ChickenCutlass> davidm, ok -- I will post to the list
[17:24] <lool> Basically Intel is forking a lot of stuff and distros don't like forks
[17:24] <ChickenCutlass> lool, exactly
[17:24] <davidm> Good point.
[17:25] <agoliveira> We're going to have a very hard time trying to integrate it back.
[17:25] <agoliveira> *if*
[17:25] <davidm> [action] Michael Frey to post " Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet" question to the list.
[17:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Michael Frey to post " Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet" question to the list. 
[17:26] <davidm> [topic] smagoun - startp performance update from agoliveira
[17:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun - startp performance update from agoliveira 
[17:26] <smagoun> I'd heard that agoliveira was measuring bootup time, any progress on that?
[17:26] <smagoun> (measuring + finding improvements)
[17:26] <agoliveira> smagoun: Sorry, didn't have the chance to go into this yet. I made a few tests but nothing conclusive yet.
[17:27] <agoliveira> I expect to be able to do it early next week.
[17:27] <lool> agoliveira: Did you manage to get bootchart working?
[17:27] <smagoun> lool: It worked for us - apt-get install bootchart was all we needed
[17:28] <agoliveira> lool: On the Q1? yes.
[17:28] <agoliveira> But as I said, I didn't look into it very hard.
[17:28] <davidm> smagoun, agoliveira has been stuck on claws fixes and some other work, it's top on his list now.
[17:28] <smagoun> thanks
[17:28] <davidm> NP
[17:28] <lool> smagoun: Yeah, for me too, which is why I wonder
[17:29] <davidm> [action] agoliveira to report next week any findings on boot speed.
[17:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  agoliveira to report next week any findings on boot speed. 
[17:29] <agoliveira> Deal.
[17:29] <davidm> OK, I have no further new items, the floor is open as we have some time left... 
[17:30] <davidm> [topic] open floor
[17:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  open floor 
[17:30] <davidm> Anything from anyone?
[17:30] <davidm> Going once..........................................
[17:30] <kyleN> the usb client use cases provided a lot of info
[17:31] <kyleN> that Don J sent to list: just mentioning that
[17:31] <davidm> It does, and with ARMS access we now have the client side code too.
[17:32] <kyleN> Going twice.....
[17:32] <davidm> It's a bit confusing but we are delving into it to see what it does.
[17:32] <kyleN> right
[17:32] <davidm> Indeed
[17:32] <lool> I'm worried that it ends in MIC
[17:32] <agoliveira> lool: MIC?
[17:32] <smagoun> anyone else think that a squashfs partition + ext3 partition + big vfat parition is going to be a bit limiting?
[17:32] <lool> MIC simply doesn't sound like a very maintainable place to live
[17:32] <smagoun> upgrades will be painful...
[17:32] <lool> agoliveira: moblin-image-creator
[17:32] <agoliveira> smagoun: I think that will be a mess...
[17:32] <davidm> That could be an issue.
[17:32] <agoliveira> lool: Oops :)
[17:33] <lool> smagoun: I don't understand why they picked a real partition for vfat instead of a loopback mounted one
[17:33] <smagoun> lool: I don't understand *any* of the decisions they made :)
[17:33] <lool> smagoun: squashfs should go away
[17:33] <davidm> smagoun, I hope it's not a "big" vfat partition, that could really eat space.
[17:33] <lool> smagoun: It's supposed to be possible to have only a real ext3
[17:33] <lool> Dunno how far this support is at the moment though
[17:34] <smagoun> davidm: My understanding from the thing Don posted was that data was expected to be on the vfat partition? Or did I read it too quickly?
[17:34] <robr> we really need to have Rusty in this discussion for USBC and VFAT
[17:34] <lool> robr: +1
[17:34] <davidm> robr, that is true, otherwise we are spinning wheels
[17:34] <kyleN> yes, the data to share must be on vfat, which eems non great for usability
[17:34] <kyleN> seems
[17:34] <lool> It sounds like userspace is not architectured for maintenance or upgrades, just one shot "we can do it"  :-/
[17:35] <davidm> Shall we take this to the list and bring it back here if necessary?
[17:35] <HappyCamp_laptop> The vfat was only put in a few days ago, by alek.  I'm sure it will be easy to make it a file on the system.
[17:35] <HappyCamp_laptop> Also I thought squashfs was optional.
[17:36] <robr> we seem to keep putting this discussion off from week to week, why don't we schedule a meeting when Rusty is back just for the USBC discussion so we can hammer it out once and for all
[17:36] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: Did you have a change to discuss doing this in a separate codebase?
[17:36] <HappyCamp_laptop> lool: nope
[17:36] <kyleN> from a user's point of view, I'd want the photos/videos/music folders to be automatically sharable, but they are not in vfat
[17:37] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: I think you should consider what happens if we need to fix a device; say, how do we provide an upgrade to the USB Client files which are in the vfat
[17:37] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: I'm sure that if you discuss with Alek, you will want to split it out
[17:37] <mdz_> robr: +1
[17:37] <HappyCamp_laptop> I'm confused, wouldn't you just copy the new files there?
[17:37] <davidm> robr, that makes sense to me. Can you take the lead on pulling the meeting together?
[17:37] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: Who would?
[17:38] <robr> if you don't put them on a VFAT partition your other choice is to share them over RNDIS/Samba which a whole bunch of other issues
[17:38] <HappyCamp_laptop> Whatever update program we come up with.
[17:38] <robr> davidm: i can do that
[17:38] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: We already have apt and dpkg; why would we want another program?
[17:38] <kyleN> robr: right, so the usablity is questionable?
[17:38] <davidm> [action] robr to arrange a meeting around USB and VFAT issues.
[17:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  robr to arrange a meeting around USB and VFAT issues. 
[17:38] <HappyCamp_laptop> Still confused, why wouldn't the usb client files be part of a package?
[17:39] <agoliveira> I had this crazy idea about creating a client application a la Apple :)
[17:39] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: So you need some infrastructure to update the contents of the vfat
[17:39] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: Which makes me wonder why we should do it in MIC in the first place
[17:40] <lool> (Since obviously MIC wont be installed on the final devices)
[17:40] <HappyCamp_laptop> lool: why?  vfat is mounted, and then you have package which installs content into wherever we decide to have vfat mounted.
[17:40] <HappyCamp_laptop> That would be how I would think it should be done.
[17:40] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: Hmm I wouldn't want a .deb installing data directly in a mounted vfat
[17:40] <HappyCamp_laptop> why not?
[17:40] <HappyCamp_laptop> Is that a problem?
[17:41] <lool> I am not sure dpkg is ready to cope with installing packages over vfat
[17:41] <HappyCamp_laptop> Because if not, things will be more difficult :(
[17:41] <HappyCamp_laptop> vfat makes things more difficult :(
[17:41] <davidm> I think before we go to far with this conversation we need to have the right people in the meeting.
[17:41] <HappyCamp_laptop> okay
[17:41] <lool> davidm: good point
[17:42] <davidm> OK so it's tabled until robr gets the right people together then.
[17:42] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: So I would personally thing it would be simpler to have a package take a directory and generate a vfat out of it; this generation could happen each time we drop something in that dir
[17:42] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: I didn't see any drawback to this, and it keeps the problem simple
[17:42] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: I'm happy to setup a meeting with you and Alek to discuss this
[17:42] <HappyCamp_laptop> lool: okay, I don't understand but I'm sure you can explain it :)
[17:43] <davidm> OK, anything else new? I don't see anything new on the meeting wiki
[17:43] <HappyCamp_laptop> lool: you will need to meet with us individually, and probably alek first.  alek_desktop is in PRC and I am in Oregon.  Will be tough for you to meet with us at the same time.
[17:43] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: Ok; will meet with him then; is he aware of the public meeting?
[17:43] <agoliveira> HappyCamp_laptop: Maybe bring him there for the sprint?
[17:44] <robr> actually i think lool needs to meet with alek rusty happycamp and me
[17:44] <davidm> robr please make sure I'm on that list too.  Thanks
[17:44] <HappyCamp_laptop> robr, lool is in Europe and sound asleep when we normally meet with PRC.
[17:45] <robr> agoliveira: that's a good suggestion
[17:45] <lool> HappyCamp_laptop: I probably am, it feels like you wake up when I go to bed and vice-versa; it's very bad for day to day questions / work
[17:45] <robr> HappyCamp_laptop: understood, but if we're going to solve this someone is going to lose some sleep
[17:45] <lool> (Nobody to blame here, it's just a fact)
[17:45] <agoliveira> lool: When in need, blame the new guy...
[17:45] <agoliveira> Hmm... that means you :)
[17:46] <lool> robr: If it's one shot, I guess I can be the one; but I'll need to plan with a lot of advance time then
[17:46] <HappyCamp_laptop> lool: sorry about that.  I usually start work late so that it is easier to work with PRC, since I have to work late.
[17:46] <robr> or you just blame HappyCamp
[17:46]  * agoliveira can't say that. He's the boss :)
[17:46] <lool> As my computer is basically in the room where my wife sleeps (and me too naturally)
[17:47] <robr> i might be able to convince Alek to stay up a little late, 9am PST is only 12 midnight in PRC
[17:48] <davidm> OK, so we have a short range plan, robr is going to find a suitable time for everyone to meet, recognizing that someone is going to be a bit inconvenienced.
[17:48] <HappyCamp_laptop> "only" ;)
[17:48] <robr> correction, that's 1am
[17:48] <lool> robr: I'm in UTC + 1 ATM, can you send some meeting proposals via email to all of us?
[17:49] <robr> lool: sure
[17:49] <lool> Thanks
[17:49] <davidm> Ok we already have an action item for that so we are good.
[17:49] <lool> We need to exchange more with Intel; I feel we go through huge pains because we don't exchange enough in advance :)
[17:50] <davidm> OK, there is no new additions to the wiki page for the meeting.  Are we done then?
[17:51] <agoliveira> Just a quick note: is Intel aware about our company-wide hollidays? If not, maybe they should.
[17:53] <davidm> Good point, we are off from Dec 24th - Jan 1 back on Jan 2
[17:53] <davidm> I'll make sure Don Johnson has this info, I think he does already.
[17:54] <davidm> #endmeeting
[17:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:54.
[17:54] <agoliveira> I'm starting a week earlier so my last week working this year is the next.
[17:57] <ian_brasil> lool: if you haven't already done so you might want to contact pvanhoof 'at' gnome.org directly rather than the nokia maintainer of modest
[17:58] <lool> ian_brasil: The Nokia maintainer seemed to be doing all the commits
[17:58] <lool> Another Nokia guy who's hard to reach is the wpeditor maintainer
[17:58] <lool> Didn't respond to me yet
[17:59] <InSearchOf> Anyone around?
[18:00] <lool> HappyCamp: So, do you want me to clarify the idea for vfat maintenance?
[18:00] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Lot's of people around :) Say hi to Sasha :)
[18:01] <sodarock_home> lool: sure
[18:01] <ian_brasil> lool: ok, most of the underlying modest stuff is tiny so i think he is upstream of upstream
[18:01] <lool> ian_brasil: Okay; thanks for the tip
[18:02] <sodarock_home> lool, can you write it up as an email?  Alek is the one doing the implementation.
[18:02] <lool> sodarock_home: sodarock_home HappyCamp HappyCamp_ubuntu HappyCamp_laptop how many do you get here?  :)
[18:02] <sodarock_home> I've been busy with Fedora enablement on MIC.
[18:02] <InSearchOf> hey agoliveira 
[18:02] <sodarock_home> lool: sorry, home system, work system 1, work system 2, etc...
[18:02] <lool> sodarock_home: I did write it up in my email to ubuntu-mobile@
[18:02] <sodarock_home> lool: okay, I will make sure to read it and send it to alek.
[18:03] <lool> sodarock_home: Yup, saw the many commits for Yum support
[18:03] <lool> sodarock_home: I basically read your commits messages as you might have guessed  ;)
[18:03] <lool> sodarock_home: I've Cc:ed Alek in my message since you mentionned he worked on the subject
[18:03] <sodarock_home> lool: We are trying to get Fedora working, then Red Flag will be getting their stuff working too.
[18:04] <InSearchOf> I'm from pdaXrom, www.pdaxrom.org, we are looking at starting to dev. for ubuntu for the use on ARM arch.
[18:04] <lool> sodarock_home: Are you expecting Ubuntu installs to be able to run MIC to bootstrap their dist (don't know how it's called) and UME and Red Flag installs to be able to do the same?
[18:05] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, you were talkin to sash earlier correct?
[18:05] <sodarock_home> lool: basically you will be able to do the same thing on Fedora/Red Flag as you do now with Ubuntu.  Is the goal.
[18:05] <lool> sodarock_home: Okay; so I don't expect I'll run tests to bootstrap their distro myself, but I can ensure the deps are in place to do so
[18:05] <sodarock_home> lool, if you have an Ubuntu host, you can do Ubuntu images.  and vis-versa
[18:06] <lool> sodarock_home: Are you currently doing QA at Intel on how MIC works in UME with pure UME repos?
[18:06] <sodarock_home> But Ubuntu will not be able to make a redflag/fedora image.  Though if you did install yum on Ubuntu you could.
[18:06] <lool> sodarock_home: Ah so you don't want to allow RF images from Ubuntu hosts in particular?
[18:06] <lool> sodarock_home: Well that's the question I'm asking: do you want to pull yum in the Ubuntu MIC packages
[18:06] <sodarock_home> My goal is only to make them work on their respective distributions, since trying to do more seemed like more work.
[18:07] <sodarock_home> lool: I don't think so
[18:07] <lool> sodarock_home: Okay; nobody will do QA for cross rootstrapping IIUC?
[18:07] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Yep. I know him for quite some time.
[18:07] <lool> Ok
[18:07] <lool> sodarock_home: How is their mobile edition called?
[18:07] <lool> (RF)
[18:07] <sodarock_home> lool: no plans on my end, but things can always change.  I wasn't planning on adding yum support to MIC, but then I was told to :)
[18:08] <sodarock_home> lool: midinix or something like that?  midlinux?
[18:08] <sodarock_home> I forget, neither of those look correct :(
[18:08] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, well I believe sash was speaking to you about moving pdaxrom to the ubuntu platform... opening up the use on ARM devices
[18:08] <lool> sodarock_home: Are you at Intel building stuff from UME, or testing our daily builds?
[18:08] <lool> sodarock_home: I mean, are you doing QA with "pure" UME?
[18:09] <sodarock_home> lool: I don't think so.  We primarily are testing using Gutsy and moblin.org
[18:09] <lool> sodarock_home: MIDLinux seems to match on Google
[18:09] <sodarock_home> I believe, but not positive.
[18:09] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Yes, he told me about it.
[18:09] <lool> sodarock_home: Ok, thanks for the info
[18:09] <InSearchOf> sashz, your here
[18:09] <sashz> yes
[18:09] <sashz> hi
[18:09] <sodarock_home> Okay, well I'm going to go into work now, lool 
[18:10] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: As I told him, we don't have any support now for anything but Intel's LPIA but as the base of UME is Maemo, shouldn't be hard to do it.
[18:10] <lool> sodarock_home: have fun
[18:12] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, as of today I'm going to start working on pdaXrom/ubuntu... I'm going to be putting together another svn branch
[18:12] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Cool.
[18:12] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, sash noted about the build systems you guys us... it is not up to par?
[18:13] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: I'm sorry but I don't understand what are you asking.
[18:14] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, nevermind :-)
[18:15] <mawhalen> lool: aren't the daily builds still off Gutsy?  Do you have Hardy daily UME builds?
[18:17] <lool> mawhalen: I don't know where the hardy daily builds stand; my builds are hardy at the moment, and the hardy MIC pulls from hardy
[18:17] <mawhalen> We have a resource that we were going to start looking at doing some integration test of the Hardy UME builds
[18:17] <mawhalen> Could he contact you to figure out where to get the bits?
[18:18] <mawhalen>  Or - could do it on mailing list - 
[18:19] <lool> mawhalen: I'm not sure what bits you need, so I can't promess anything
[18:20] <lool> mawhalen: But he's welcome to ask me (or the mailing-list) anything :)
[18:20] <mawhalen> I'll have him come and search!
[18:20] <mawhalen> thx 
[18:27] <InSearchOf> all, is there anyone has attempted ARM builds that I could cross reference with?
[18:35] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Not that I'm aware of.
[18:37] <ramesh_> lool: where can I get a MIC that I can build hardy images with ?
[18:38] <lool> ramesh_: You can configure the latest MIC in gutsy or hardy to do so, and the MIC in hardy will do so by default
[18:40] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, thanks
[18:56] <ramesh_> lool : Thanks.
[19:35] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? or point me in the direction to find some info about UME
[19:36] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: Sure, no problem.
[19:36] <InSearchOf> well first where can I find some info on UME
[19:37] <InSearchOf> where are the UME source repos? 
[19:38] <agoliveira> InSearchOf: The source are the same for Ubuntu the only differece is that when it's built to run on lpia arch, it links the hildon interface. IF you want to build an image to start with, check the image-builder package.
[19:40] <InSearchOf> agoliveira, is UME run using XFCE, OpenBox, or a custom build gui?
[19:41] <agoliveira> Hildon which is the maemo's one. The WM itself is matchbox.
[19:42] <ToddBrandt> ChickenCutlass: you still on?
[19:42] <ToddBrandt> davidm: you as well?
[19:42] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, yes
[19:42] <ToddBrandt> sorry to miss the meeting
[19:42] <davidm> I'm still here
[19:43] <ToddBrandt> the answer to why I built the battery applet pretty by reusing snippets of gpm code instead of just installing gpm is that we have a custom solution for power management called PPM
[19:43] <davidm> NP ToddBrandt 
[19:43] <ToddBrandt> so GPM would just get in the way
[19:43] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, so why build PPM
[19:43] <ToddBrandt> I just added the battery applet so that the user could see what the charge state is, that's all
[19:44] <davidm> ToddBrandt, so you could not just extend GPM?
[19:45] <ToddBrandt> ChickenCutlass: that is a deep philosophical question that only Rusty can really answer, but the short of it is that we started the project without knowing which license we were approved for
[19:45] <ToddBrandt> so GPM is GPLv2, and that was out initially
[19:45] <ToddBrandt> as for why we don't just extend GPM, actually I think it's not a bad idea to do that, but ultimately the decision's Rusty's
[19:46] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, ok -- I am just trying to understand some decisions that were made.  I am also trying to reduce the amount of "new" code
[19:46] <ToddBrandt> I think at this point the PPM infrastructure is so different that it would be harder to extend than just to continute on the original course
[19:46] <ToddBrandt> yea, I understand, new code is generally bad
[19:46] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, where is PPM -- is that a moblin project
[19:47] <ToddBrandt> I've looked over the GPM code and it seems to incorporate alot of things that PPM has covered in parallel, but I believe that PPM is also tuned to handle some hardware spefici features of LPIA
[19:47] <ToddBrandt> yea, it's on moblin.org, I thought they made a project page for it but I could be wrong
[19:47] <ChickenCutlass> I will check
[19:47] <ToddBrandt> mawhalen: what's the project site for PPM?
[19:49] <ToddBrandt> I know there's a blueprint for PPM
[19:49] <ToddBrandt> because I wrote the first version of it, but it has since been hugely  modified
[19:50] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, ok -- i will look it up
[19:50] <ToddBrandt> http://moblin.org/projects_ppm.php
[19:50] <ToddBrandt> there's the page, found it
[19:50] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, thanks
[19:52] <ToddBrandt> ChickenCutlass: one other reason for not just reusing GPM is it's desktop oriented and PanelApplet based I think, where all the moblin stuff is based on the hildon API which uses objects a little higher up the GTK tree from PanelApplet, Hildon status bar applets are all just children of the GtkButton class
[19:53] <ToddBrandt> Plus GPM uses libbobobo which is also unued on moblin
[19:53] <ChickenCutlass> ToddBrandt, got it
[20:33] <mawhalen> agoliveira: you online?
[20:34] <agoliveira> mawhalen: Yes, right here.
[20:34] <mawhalen> agoliveira: i heard your samsung hd crashed
[20:34] <agoliveira> mawhalen: Well, not completely but it's not 100% I guess. Working but making some strange noises.
[20:34] <mawhalen> agoliveira: did david get you a new drive?  OR is there anyway to order one easily to Brazil?
[20:35] <agoliveira> mawhalen: I already got one, no need to worry about it.
[20:35] <mawhalen> agoliveira: talk nicer to it
[20:35] <mawhalen> agoliveira: ok - 
[20:35] <agoliveira> Thanks for asking. BTW, if you have another Q1 needing a good home, I'll be glad to find it :)
[20:37] <mawhalen> agoliveira: only if I don't have to ship it to Brazil...
[20:37] <mawhalen> agoliveira: I actually don't have any spares at the moment
[20:38] <agoliveira> mawhalen: Just kidding but anyway, I'll be there in January so I can bring one if necessary.