[00:17] <bryce> tjaalton: yeah we definitely need to put some time into xorg.  I've been (trying) to focus on -intel mostly since uds and haven't been looking much at xorg
[00:35] <ubotu> New bug: #161007 in xorg (main) "black screen when X should start (live CD)" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161007
[00:37] <ubotu> New bug: #161029 in xorg (main) "screen corrupt" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161029
[00:45] <ubotu> New bug: #174267 in xorg (main) "[8.04 alpha 1] regression - touchpad loses right, middle and scroll functionality on macbook" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174267
[01:31] <tjaalton> a slight drop in the xorg bugs (416 -> 389).. lot's of low-hanging fruit there, mostly reassigned to other packages though
[01:31] <tjaalton> like, l-r-m
[01:32] <tjaalton> always a good place to dump bugs about nvidia/fglrx blobs :)
[01:32] <tjaalton> dump and forget
[01:33] <tjaalton> I'll continue later, now it's 3:32AM so bedtime for me :P
[01:33] <bryce> heh, I was looking into a screensaver bug someone reported with -intel on my -ati box, 
[01:33] <tjaalton> night ->
[01:33] <bryce> but stepped away for a minute and my system crashed too!
[01:33] <bryce> sounds good; I've been banging on -intel bugs
[01:34] <tjaalton> bug 68150?
[01:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 68150 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "screensaver crashes X on IBM X40 (opengl related?)" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/68150
[01:34] <bryce> heh, yeah that was what I was looking at
[01:35] <bryce> however this is an -ati (R350) box with dual-head
[01:35] <tjaalton> yep, there are some screensavers that tend to have issues with some drivers
[01:35]  * bryce nods
[01:35] <ubotu> New bug: #131431 in xserver-xorg-video-mga (main) "GLX not loaded in Xubuntu with Matrox G400" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/131431
[01:35] <bryce> I'll dig around and see if I can find the matching one for this
[01:35] <tjaalton> our intels have had problems with "lattice"
[01:36] <tjaalton> but latest mesa should have fixes for that, also backported to feisty
[01:36] <bryce> hrm, I'm also now having a firefox rendering issue
[01:36] <bryce> bugz bugz bugz
[01:36] <tjaalton> you never get enough of them
[01:36] <bryce> anyway, g'night, hope you don't have to get up too early tomorrow :-)
[01:37] <tjaalton> nope, it's the independence day (90th, btw), so it should be nice :)
[01:37] <bryce> cool
[01:38] <bryce> well I'm glad I spent a chunk of time yesterday fixing up my .xprofile and so on
[01:38] <bryce> nice having all my windows auto-arranged and be back in business quick
[01:39] <tjaalton> gnome-session-save works sometimes, but it's quite fragile
[01:39] <bryce> I find it unreliable
[01:39] <bryce> plus I like having all my terminals arranged just-so
[01:40] <tjaalton> me too
[01:40] <tjaalton> habits..
[01:40] <bryce> I figured out how to code it all up so I get multiple tabs loaded with my various mutt mailboxes, todo lists loaded into emacs, etc. etc. 
[01:42] <tjaalton> heh, I rarely use g-t tabs
[01:42] <tjaalton> but I have this screen session running on a server..
[01:43] <bryce> I used to use multi-gnome-terminal way back when, then switched over to konsole (even with gnome), and only yesterday finally switched back
[01:44] <tjaalton> I should revisit all this session stuff some time
[01:45] <tjaalton> things have been too stable to make a difference ;)
[01:46] <tjaalton> ah well, now I'm gone for real ->
[01:47]  * bryce waves
[02:50] <ubotu> New bug: #174287 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (main) "touchpad + nubmouse combo fails to combine" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174287
[03:05] <ubotu> New bug: #174291 in xorg (main) "Comment text in xorg.conf missing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174291
[06:11] <ubotu> New bug: #174309 in xserver-xorg-video-radeonhd (universe) "radeonhd -- package doesn't install driver" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174309
[06:16] <ubotu> New bug: #174311 in xserver-xorg-video-radeonhd (universe) "radeonhd not shown when configuring xorg" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174311
[08:28] <ubotu> New bug: #162109 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22 (restricted) "Nvidia restricted drivers segfault in _nv001174X+0x36" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162109
[08:32] <ubotu> New bug: #162013 in xorg (main) "Resolution fell to 320*240 when clicking"Don't save" on a change." [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162013
[08:40] <ubotu> New bug: #162014 in ubuntu "Text size abnormal (dup-of: 162013)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162014
[10:05] <ubotu> New bug: #174367 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (main) "Driver can't drive G33 with 2.6.24" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174367
[14:20] <ubotu> New bug: #174425 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (main) "compiz dead locks for dual monitor setup using ati driver 6.7.195" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174425
[14:25] <ubotu> New bug: #174426 in xserver-xorg-input-keyboard (main) "Genius Comfy 21e Scroll Keyboard misconfigured" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174426
[14:36] <ubotu> New bug: #174427 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (main) "Tremulous causes X server crash (signal 11) on Radeon 9250" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174427
[15:00] <ubotu> New bug: #35211 in gnome-screensaver (main) "gnome-screensaver started delayed in session" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/35211
[16:21] <jcristau> bryce: http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Xorg/versions_current.html doesn't seem to be updated?
[16:24] <bryce> hmm, ok I'll take a look at it
[18:20] <ubotu> New bug: #174479 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (main) "radeon dri and blender in gutsy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174479
[18:41] <ubotu> New bug: #57229 in xorg (main) "Kubuntu drops me unpredictably to tty1, tty2 etc" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57229
[18:48] <tjaalton> bryce: I'm thinking of adding tags for xorg bugs, especially for those that are fixed by dropping xresprobe, and for those that need input-hotplug
[18:49] <tjaalton> so, should we have tags that start like "x-foo" or similar, to stand out from the noise
[18:54] <bryce> sure that sounds great
[18:54] <bryce> btw, I just had a really good meeting with the Envy guy, and BenC, mvo, and dholbach.  I'm writing up the meeting notes and will post them shortly
[18:55] <bryce> I put the IRC minutes here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnvyNG
[18:57] <tjaalton> ok, reading
[19:05] <ubotu> New bug: #174323 in totem (main) "Totem dies with ogg file (dup-of: 111257)" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174323
[19:05] <tjaalton> right, so AIUI the dropped hw-support from fglrx is temporary (the pro stuff)
[19:06] <tjaalton> so I'm not so sure about the need of fglrx-new
[19:06] <tjaalton> but the rest of it sounds good
[19:06] <tjaalton> updating l-r-m is heavy, though :)
[19:06] <bryce> yup
[19:07] <bryce> actually I think this will not require updating l-r-m.  as I understand it, envy builds the kernel module and stuff locally on the user's system
[19:07] <bryce> so lrm and envy just need to be aware of each other, not tie in directly
[19:07] <tjaalton> yes that's true
[19:10] <tjaalton> back to tagging; I'll add x-input-hotplug and x-resprobe tags, maybe also x-discover?
[19:11] <bryce> I think that's probably fine
[19:11] <tjaalton> keeping them short would be nice, but x-i-h doesn't really tell anything ;)
[19:11] <bryce> there was some discussion on the devel list though, that ubuntu has too many tags, so be conservative in creating new ones
[19:11] <bryce> heya tedg
[19:12] <tedg> Hey, so basically it seems that the XSM Protocol sucks.
[19:12] <tedg> It's underspecified, so every implementation of it is different.
[19:12] <tedg> So, now the GNOME folks want to abandon it.
[19:12] <tedg> I guess the real question is: is someone willing to fix it?
[19:12] <tedg> (and perhaps make some implementations of it invalid)
[19:13] <bryce> eh, gotta love open source... flee problems rather than dive in and fix them ;-)
[19:13] <bryce> tedg: can you provide some references for XSM?  I'm not super familiar with it
[19:13] <tedg> Yeah, that's part of the problem.  The other problem is that all the implementations seem to be different.
[19:13] <tjaalton> session-management? eww..
[19:14] <tedg> http://gould.cx/ted/blog/Who_cares_when_we_quit_
[19:15] <tedg> The spec itself is linked in that entry.
[19:15] <tedg> But, I think the diagrams are perhaps more useful than the spec is :)
[19:16]  * bryce reads
[19:18] <bryce> nice diagrams
[19:18] <bryce> (and inkscape plugs *grin*)
[19:18] <tedg> I'd never plug it if it wasn't useful ;)
[19:19] <bryce> have you seen wmctrl?
[19:20] <tedg> No, I don't seem to have it on my system.
[19:20] <bryce> I discovered it myself the other day; I've only used it a little but it seems to have some cool wm-independent capabilities
[19:20] <bryce> I don't know if it has anything relating to shutdown, but since it's wm-agnostic, it might be a point where this sort of stuff could be plugged in
[19:21] <bryce> it's based on implementing some wm standards; I don't know if you've already looked at them, but might be worth a little research if not
[19:21] <tedg> Yeah, but XSM is really unrelated to the window manager.  It's a separate protocol.
[19:22] <bryce> well in your blog post you propose modifying the wm to handle the notifications
[19:22] <tedg> That is pretty cool.
[19:23] <tedg> Oh, yes.  I'm more thinking adding a WM hint.  Kinda like Toolbar or something like that.
[19:23] <bryce> I'm just thinking wmctrl might be an alternative there
[19:23] <tedg> Add a "unsaved data" hint.
[19:23] <tedg> I don't think that exists in the protocol today.
[19:23]  * bryce nods
[19:23] <tedg> So we'd have to add it, and add it to wmctrl also :)
[19:24] <bryce> yup
[19:24] <bryce> what about preserving state even for saved docs
[19:24] <tedg> That's going to have to be an application thing.
[19:25] <bryce> the idea being to enable when you start up, things get loaded back up as you'd had them
[19:25] <tedg> Exactly, that would be wonderful.
[19:25] <tedg> But, it seems because the XSM spec is poorly defined, and implemented differently everywhere, people are avoiding implementing it.
[19:26] <bryce> you said GNOME is going to abandon it - to what are they planning to move?
[19:26] <tedg> They don't know, they're just really upset about XSM.
[19:26] <tedg> They'll probably keep it for the notifications, but do all the restarting stuff using .desktop files in the autostart spec.
[19:27] <bryce> have they had difficulties getting changes done to XSM?  Who controls it?
[19:27] <tedg> So basically an app would write .desktop files.
[19:27] <tedg> Well, I've asked that, and no one seems to know -- that's why I'm here :)
[19:27] <tedg> Is there anyone in the X hierarchy that cares?
[19:27] <tedg> I don't think anyone has asked for changes specifically.
[19:28] <tedg> And I'm guessing they're all figuring that the X guys won't change anything.
[19:28] <bryce> I don't know - tjaalton, jcristau?
[19:28] <tedg> But, if there were X folks willing to talk, I think we could have a productive discussion.
[19:28] <tedg> Though, I think part of that discussion may need to including orphaning some implementations.
[19:29] <bryce> tedg, do you know Bart Massey?  He seems to have his fingers in several protocol-level things, and knows lots of those sorts of people.  He might be the guy to ask.  Want me to give you his email address?
[19:29] <tedg> No, I don't know that many X folks, that why I'm asking you guys ;)
[19:29] <bryce> he's also on the X.org board, so could be a good point person if some pushing needs done from within the community
[19:30]  * tedg enjoys giving bryce a hard time
[19:30] <tedg> I'd be willing to start there.
[19:31] <tedg> We'd really like to get something working for Hardy+1, but at this point I'm worried it's going to be Hardy + 100
[19:31] <bryce> heh
[19:31] <bryce> yeah that's how I felt about bulletproof-x
[19:31] <bryce> ted@canonical.com?
[19:32] <tjaalton> that would be ubuntu 58.04 then ;)
[19:32] <tedg> bryce: Sure, that address works.
[19:32] <tedg> tjaalton: I'm SOOO excited about Ubuntu 58.04.  I think I'm going to take the release day off.
[19:32] <tedg> Let me e-mail my boss! ;)
[19:33] <tjaalton> haha :)
[19:35] <bryce> tedg: ok mailed and cc'd
[19:38] <tedg> bryce: Cool, thanks.
[20:15] <bryce> ok, I've written up a summary + tasks - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnvyNG
[20:15] <bryce> tjaalton: if you know of any other tasks or ideas, please add them to that page
[20:20]  * bryce waves to tormod
[20:21] <bryce> tormod: btw we had a meeting earlier today about Envy, and making it play better with l-r-m for nvidia and fglrx:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnvyNG
[20:34] <tormod> hi bryce!
[20:35] <tedg> So, how are the X11 specs handled now?
[20:35] <tedg> There's no XOpen group, right?
[20:35] <tedg> Are Sun and SGI still maintaining their own X server?
[20:37] <tormod> tedg, I thought I had read that Sun was going towards Xorg, but you might get more answer on #xorg or #xorg-devel
[20:40] <tormod> bryce, I made a patch for xorg-server.postinst, but is that soon obsolete anyway?
[20:41] <tedg> tormod: Interesting, that'd probably be easier for everyone.
[20:42] <tedg> I'm trying to get an idea on how surmountable the spec changing process might be :)
[20:42] <bryce> sun is maintaining its own X server, but some groups within it are pushing to move to xorg
[20:42] <bryce> so we'll see
[20:43] <bryce> I don't know of any active X standards body, but bart would know for sure
[20:43] <bryce> tormod: we'll always retain xorg-server.postinst, it'll just be much shorter
[20:43] <tormod> will it still make the list of drivers to choose from?
[20:43] <tedg> bryce: Are there Sun folks on the X.org lists?
[20:43] <bryce> I don't know when we'll be pulling in gravity's trimmed down changes
[20:44] <bryce> tedg, yep
[20:44] <bryce> tormod: I think that'll still be there
[20:44] <bryce> tormod: gravity could say for sure
[20:45] <bryce> tormod: I'd suggest being sure to send him any changes you apply to the ubuntu postinst, so if it's still needed in the future, he can be sure to put it in upstream, so we can remain in sync
[20:46] <tormod> and gravity is the 133t nick for whom?
[20:46] <bryce> tedg: they post from their @sun.com addresses, if you want to look at the past month's list archives for them
[20:46] <bryce> gravity = david nusinow
[20:48] <tormod> ok I'll make a patch for Debian then.
[20:49] <tedg> bryce: I wasn't looking for someone specific as much as trying to understand everything.
[20:50] <tjaalton> tormod: did you not see my reply to that bug? I have it ready for the next upload
[20:51] <tormod> I haven't gotten any bugmail lately. Maybe I complained too much last night :)
[20:52] <tormod> tjaalton: thanks that was quick! Should I still file a Debian bug, or do you have some magic for that ?
[20:52] <tjaalton> tormod: well, maybe I or jcristau could commit that to debian-unstable too
[20:53] <tjaalton> it's pretty simple
[20:53] <tormod> sounds good
[20:54] <tjaalton> jcristau: so, the postinst filters ati-drivers and that means radeonhd is not on the driver list even though if it's installed
[20:55] <tjaalton> jcristau: and the fix is modifying the egrep line
[20:56] <tjaalton> hmm, I could push ubuntu branch now so it's easy to pick from there
[20:56] <tormod> tjaalton: is your tree on alioth.d.o? is there a cgit or gitweb?
[20:56] <tjaalton> yes
[20:57] <tjaalton> git.debian.org
[20:57] <tjaalton> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-xorg/debian/xorg.git;a=shortlog;h=ubuntu
[20:57] <tjaalton> there are guides how to use it on the X wiki
[20:58] <tjaalton> same goes to xorg-server
[20:58] <tjaalton> hmm, there was a chick on the telly with the same necklace that princess Leia had on episode IV :) (it's finnish design)
[21:03] <tormod> tjaalton: thanks I saw the wiki guide, but there was no link
[21:03] <tjaalton> tormod: hum ok, I'll fix that
[21:25] <ubotu> New bug: #174537 in xorg (main) "[Hardy] No Xorg in live cd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174537
[21:30] <ubotu> New bug: #174538 in libx11 (main) "[Hardy] keyboard stops working" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174538
[21:45] <tjaalton> tormod: check the page now, I've even added something under the "git archive policy" headline
[23:13] <bryce> jcristau: http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Xorg/versions_current.html is updated; still investigating why it works when running manually but not when cronned...
[23:17] <bryce> dah, stupid PATH tricks
[23:37] <bryce> ok I think that should take care of it