/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/08/#ubuntu-motu.txt

norsettopschulz01: this link should answer all your needs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages00:01
pschulz01DarkMageZ: Not really..  I want to know how to go from an upstream release 3.0.0 to 3.0.1 (say), given that I have the packaging source (diff) for 3.0.000:03
LaserJockpschulz01: cp the new tarball to an .orig.tar.gz and then unpack it and drop in the old debian/00:04
DarkMageZlike LaserJock said. then just add a changelog entry and build00:05
DarkMageZpschulz01, yes. it's really that easy.00:05
Fujitsu.. or just use uupdate!00:05
LaserJockyep00:06
* DarkMageZ must look @ this uupdate tool00:06
proppyFujitsu: watch/file buddy ?00:06
pschulz01Fujitsu: I think that was what I was after in the first place!00:06
Fujitsuproppy: What?00:06
proppyFujitsu: I mean is uupdate related to debian/watch file or am I completly mistaken ?00:07
LaserJockrelated, but not dependent I don't think00:08
Fujitsuuscan uses uupdate if it finds a new upstream.00:08
proppyok :)00:08
pschulz01Fujitsu: Woot! That worked.00:09
Fujitsupschulz01: Great :)00:09
crimsunI wonder why pulseaudio/i386 on hardy is showing pending still.00:10
pschulz01Fujitsu: Now just have to keep doing it otherwise the information will fall off the bottom of my heap.00:10
crimsunit's built and available for the other arches00:10
pschulz01Fujitsu: No more tea breaks for me.00:10
LaserJockcrimsun: perhaps an arch: all backlog?00:11
crimsunLaserJock: ...00:11
Fujitsucrimsun: Pending == NEEDSBUILD00:12
FujitsuI presume you mean Currently Building.00:12
FujitsuOh, wtf... It doesn't even have a builder assigned.00:12
FujitsuAnd there is no cprov to be found.00:12
TheMusoWoohoo. Pulseaudio for Hardy can be set up to replace the system beep through the pc speaker with a sound of one's own choice.00:13
FujitsuTheMuso: Yay!00:13
Fujitsucrimsun: I saw a bug similar to that a couple of nights back, on a PPA.00:13
TheMusoFujitsu: Yeah, I think its time we had something like this. KDE has had it for ages.00:13
crimsunright.  It doesn't make sense that ndiswrapper, which was uploaded only today, is available in pool, while pulseaudio isn't for i386.00:19
crimsunFujitsu: ok, thanks.00:19
Fujitsucrimsun: Note how it is labeled as building but has no builder or start date.00:19
crimsunFujitsu: right.00:20
Fujitsu== great example of Soyuz's reliability.00:20
TheMusoWhy is pulseaudio i386 only now currently building?00:21
TheMusoI suspect thats what you are talking about.00:21
crimsunTheMuso: yes, that's the symptom which is apparently a known issue.00:22
TheMusoRight00:22
crimsun(apologies for the gnome-audio snafu)00:22
TheMusonp00:23
TheMusohardy ubuntu-desktop deps are somewhat broken atm anyway, so new installs can't easily be done for the desktop at least.00:23
TheMusoHow long has that been building? I get the feeling for a while now.00:24
FujitsuTheMuso: It's not building. Note the lack of builder or start time.00:24
TheMusoFujitsu: ah ok.00:24
* TheMuso pulls the source and builds locally. I want to do some testing.00:25
=== doko_ is now known as doko
norsettonight all00:27
TheMusoWould a give back solve that?00:28
FujitsuTheMuso: It may, but it could well not show the button.00:28
Fujitsus/may/probably would/00:29
=== lakin_ is now known as lakin
LaserJockanybody seen this gtk packaging GUI called debcreator?00:53
crimsun(https://launchpad.net/debcreator)01:03
crimsuneeek.01:04
crimsunit looks like text entry fields for control, etc.01:04
crimsun(is it really adding anything to the end user besides window decorations?)01:05
pschulz01Does anyone know of a good example of a perl (cgi) package that hooks into Postgres/Mysql. I'm looking for suitable setup scripts.01:08
=== bmk789_sleep is now known as bmk789
jscinozthis is so strange...01:48
jscinozI'm trying to package iourt (a modified ioquake3 engine) from source.. if i build it quickly just using "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot" it works just fine.. but if i do it properly "debuild -S -sa" then "sudo pbuilder --build ../iourt-4.0-0ubuntu1.dsc" the compile fails >_<01:49
persiajscinoz: Could you put your build output in a pastebin?  It sounds like a missing build-dependency01:50
DarkMageZyou'll need to have all the dependencies from ioquake3 in the control file + any extra to cover the modifications01:52
jscinozyeah one second.01:56
jscinozjust going to try it first with a small tweak to debian/rules01:56
jscinozpersia, heres as much output before the scroll limit http://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/47312/02:00
persiajscinoz: OK.  Could you paste debian/control ?02:01
jscinozyeah one sec.02:01
jscinozhttp://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/47313/02:02
persiajscinoz: Yep.  You need to include the SDL libraries in Build-Depends:02:03
jscinozah02:03
jscinozjust libsdl-dev?02:03
jscinozsilly mistake >_<02:03
persiajscinoz: Grep in /usr/include for SDL_UnloadObject, and then find the package that provides the containing file.02:04
jscinozyep it was libsdl1.2-dev02:11
jscinozall good now :)02:11
jscinozdoh >_< i forgot to include the .desktop file i made for it >_<02:11
LaserJockpersia: have you already made a run through ~u-u-s bugs today?02:31
persiaLaserJock: Not yet.02:32
LaserJockhmm, should I take a Kmos bug?02:42
persiaLaserJock: No reason not to do so: just look at it with care.02:42
LaserJockhmm, it's a little fishy but it's getting there02:44
LaserJockI still think it's a bit overkill to add a patch system for a one line diff02:46
persiaI don't think it's worth it.02:46
LaserJockyeah, but is it worth telling somebody to redo the debdiff02:48
LaserJockespecially when another MOTU said they should add the patch?02:48
LaserJockseems like people are giving mixed messages02:49
* persia grumbles at people who insist on patch systems02:49
persiaLaserJock: Are there any other patches to the package in the diff.gz?02:49
* StevenK appears02:50
LaserJockpersia: it's a native package ...02:51
jscinozargh.. stupid question but.. what is the syntax to leave a blank line in the long-description in debian/control?02:51
StevenKjscinoz: " ."02:51
persiaLaserJock: I7d suggest that a native package should never have a patch system.  That just doesn't make any sense at all.02:51
persiaLaserJock: Yes, it's worth redoing the debdiff, and yes, it's worth slapping the MOTU who advocated a patch system for a native package.02:52
jscinozthanks stevenk02:54
ScottKLaserJock: What bug?02:54
LaserJockbug #17423902:55
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174239 in dhelp "Please merge dhelp 0.6.5 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17423902:55
* ScottK looks to see who needs slapping.02:55
LaserJockhmmpf02:57
LaserJockI have to say, working on his bugs aren't very easy02:57
* TheMuso avoids kmos bugs, and has done so for a while now.02:58
StevenKLaserJock: He doesn't make them very easy, either.02:58
TheMusoI've dealt with enough of them to know that he's not likely to get a clue any time soon.02:58
persiaYes.  He's often right about many things, despite being wrong about others.02:58
TheMusoAnd I hope, but at at the same time doubt, that he'll request syncs for packages after debian import freeze for good reasons.02:59
LaserJockso he made a changed one thing in the Makefile, but then includes a changelog entry that  references a different change02:59
ScottKIMO the odds do make it worth betting the opportunity cost of what I didn't do if I expend the time to look.02:59
persiaLaserJock: That's unfortunately exceedingly common: acceptable work with seemingly random documentation :(02:59
ScottKTheMuso: He'd been told even before the first round of mass sync bugs for Gutsy not to do it, so don't get too focused on that hope.03:00
TheMusoScottK: As I said, I doubt it.03:00
persiaLaserJock: In this case, consider reviewing the patch in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dhelp/+bug/174239/comments/17, which is perhaps more sensible.03:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174239 in dhelp "Please merge dhelp 0.6.5 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]03:02
ScottKWell until I was doing research for my recent request to the MC, I didn't know he'd been told not to even before the first time.03:02
persiaStrangely, back in feisty close / gutsy open, the work was of higher quality.03:02
ScottKWell let's get it fixed then.  We'll recruit an army of new people who have no experience to help out and that'll solve the kwality problem.03:03
Hobbseeoh dear.03:04
* Hobbsee looks up backscroll03:04
LaserJockpersia: what was of higher quality?03:05
persiaScottK: Well, no, but it will increase the volume of work, which may be good.03:05
persiaLaserJock: Submissions from kmos03:05
FujitsuWell, we've got some easy tasks for new contributors.03:05
FujitsuNamely tailing Kmos.03:05
LaserJockpersia: yeah, I think perhaps he's doing some of it on purpose to spite some people03:05
ScottKAh.  I thought persia was making a broad statement.03:05
ScottKLaserJock: I actually don't think he has a dishonest bone in his body.  The scary part is that he really is doing his best.03:06
* TheMuso chuckles at the e2fsprogs mail on gutsy-changes03:06
persiaScottK: No.  Specific.  Broadly, I think new contributors always make mistakes, and after 10-15 bugs reach a level where their work is demonstrably good (or they leave before reaching that number).03:06
LaserJockScottK: but why would the quality go down?03:06
DarkMageZwhat's this kmos thing? it keeps on getting refered to...03:07
FujitsuDarkMageZ: Kmos is a contributor.03:07
Hobbseefsvo contributor.03:07
Hobbseecontributor to what, though?03:07
ScottKDarkMageZ: Kmos is probably the most painfully disruptive person we've had show up here to 'help'.03:07
FujitsuTheMuso: I get them all the time.03:07
persiaDarkMageZ: A specific person whose Contributions often don't meet sponsor requirements, and whose submissions take a larger volume of sponsoring time than those of others.03:07
FujitsuThough what the heck happened there? Security uploads aren't announced...03:07
ScottKLaserJock: I dunno.  Maybe he's getting nervous.03:07
HobbseeTheMuso: if he reqeusts a whole bunch of syncs after DIF, he is going to die a horrible, painful death.03:08
ScottKLaserJock: Don't ask me to explain how his mind works.  I've already got a headach.03:08
LaserJockScottK: I'd like to think he's not doing it on purpose03:08
Hobbseei *doubt* he's that stupid to try again03:08
DarkMageZkmos = microsoft sabotor?03:08
ScottKLaserJock: I don't think he is.03:08
persiaHobbsee: Careful: there may be reasons for the syncs.  I tend to request heaps of them, especially for edge stuff (not libraries).03:08
HobbseeDarkMageZ: may as well be.  have a look at the messages for this month on motu-council@l.u.c03:08
Hobbseepersia: having seen the last lot...03:08
ScottKDarkMageZ: I don't think so, but he's the primary reason I'm not doing UUS anymore.03:09
persiaHobbsee: Yes, I know.  Still, I find that > 70% of his requests actually have some root in a good thing (although it would be quicker for me to address it directly than sort out what he is trying to do).03:09
Hobbseepersia: then in the interests of time, i'd suggest you take the latter option.03:09
Hobbsee:)03:09
* Fujitsu likes the addition to /+builds.03:09
Hobbseepersia: yeah, the pre-DIF ones are.03:09
Hobbseepersia: the post-DIF ones just seem to be "sync it because it has changes in debian, and might fix bugs"03:10
persiaHobbsee: Even post-DIF (but I'm an advocate of continued selected syncs / merges post-DIF for non-libraries).03:10
persiaI'd be happy to see lots of sync requests if the update in Debian fixes a known issue.03:10
persia(this does, however, require documentation of the issue)03:11
* ScottK feels he has done his duty and more wrt Kmos (both helping him when that seemed possible and lately), so whatever happens, he's done with it.03:11
persiaScottK: Good plan.  Less stress for you :)03:11
ScottKYeah.03:11
LaserJockok, I think he got this one right03:11
persiaLaserJock: Now for the fun question: would it take you half an hour to process the merge directly?03:12
LaserJockhmm, probably not03:12
ScottKAnd this gets into the negative value thing.  Even when he's right, he suck the productivity out of people.03:13
LaserJockalthough he caught something I probably wouldn't have03:13
LaserJockalthough I don't know that it's really very important03:13
Hobbseethe more bugs he files, and the more people become accepting of his low level of quality, (not necessarily accepting the bugs, but not telling him "please don't do this again", and making sure he doesn't) the less i feel like i can be a part of the team.03:13
* Hobbsee shrugs03:13
LaserJockHobbsee: right, but it's difficult to blanket reject somebody03:14
persiaHobbsee: How can we "make sure"?03:14
Hobbseelock the LP account.03:14
HobbseeMC hasn't appeared to actually do anything about it yet.03:14
* persia notes that LP accounts are easy to open03:14
LaserJockthis is a volunteer, contributor run organization we need to figure out good ways of dealing with such things03:14
Hobbseethis is true, but there are ways around it.03:15
StevenKHobbsee: You can't ignore him?03:15
persiaStevenK: Ignoring is hard: he clutters the sponsors queues, and other fora03:15
HobbseeStevenK: it's a perception of quality over the entire MOTU project, rather than ignoring a particular contributor03:15
StevenKpersia: True.03:15
persiaFurther, the work he reviews often needs doing, and blanket rejecting it makes it not appetising to someone else.03:16
StevenKHobbsee: Oh, your point is he smears our reputation and drags us all down?03:16
Hobbseeif the quality has dropped to his substandard level, then why should i put in time attempting to fix it?03:16
HobbseeStevenK: exactly.03:16
HobbseeStevenK: you put that very well.03:16
* ScottK is back. I had to get alcohol.03:16
Hobbsee*giggles*03:17
Hobbseevery large amounts?03:17
StevenKScottK: You're starting the -motu drinking game?03:17
* Hobbsee drinks, in preparation for work03:17
ScottKHobbsee: Not yet.  The topic just had me headed for the liquor cabinet for solace.03:17
ScottKStevenK: Every time I complain everyone has to take a drink.03:18
StevenKScottK: Then we'll all get smashed in about ten minutes?03:18
* StevenK ducks03:18
ScottKStevenK: Isn't that the point of drinking games?03:18
StevenKHeh, yeah well03:19
StevenKBit early to start drinking here, anyway.03:19
ScottKSpeaking of mistakes, openssl097 got removed from partner today.03:20
StevenKIt got removed like two days ago03:20
ScottKIt's still today for me.03:20
* StevenK doesn't look at -partner03:21
Hobbseeand my computer decided to freeze, when looking at the issue, clearly03:21
LaserJockheh, this is kinda silly03:22
* ScottK doesn't as a rule, but when I saw an upload with a remote code execution unpatched (that I'd expended time to get out of Universe) on gutsy-changes, I got interested.03:22
ScottKLaserJock: Which?03:22
LaserJockthe Makefile checks the debian/changelog for the package version, and then check to see if the version is the same as what is in the Makefile03:22
LaserJockso every time you update the changelog you gotta change the Makefile03:23
* StevenK drops his shovel, and fires up the backhoe to dig through the net-snmp merge.03:23
ScottKNote that the common thread between Kmos and the openssl097 upload is that more and more of us (IMO) have come to view public shaming as the only way to correct bad work.03:23
StevenKBut public shaming has had no effect on him!03:23
LaserJockScottK: ah, right03:23
ScottKStevenK: Not that we didn't try.03:23
LaserJockthat was kinda rough03:23
ScottKLaserJock: Which, the blog post on openssl?03:23
StevenKHe's like bad in-laws, he just keeps coming back.03:23
LaserJockScottK: yeah03:24
LaserJockthat should have been an email to -devel methinks03:24
ScottKLaserJock: I disagree.  It's partner, it's not part of the Ubuntu development process.03:24
LaserJockhmm, I guess03:24
LaserJockalthough I generally consider partner to be a part of the grand Ubuntu universe03:25
FujitsuScottK: Did you see Colin's comment on the partner-isn't-Ubuntu-you-stupid-LP bug?03:25
ScottKLP has been modified to make it look like part of Ubuntu (separate issue), but it's not.03:25
ScottKFujitsu: Yes I did.03:25
* Fujitsu wasn't pleased.03:25
StevenKFujitsu: I didn't, point me at the bug?03:25
FujitsuParter should be a special case of PPA.03:25
Fujitsu*Partner03:25
LaserJockFujitsu: about?03:25
persiaLaserJock: Ummm..  As a Master of the Universe who can't upload to Partner, I think you'd see it different.03:25
FujitsuBug #15379803:25
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153798 in soyuz "canonical partner repo packages showing as "in ubuntu"" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15379803:25
persiaFujitsu: Yes.03:25
Fujitsupersia: What?03:25
LaserJockpersia: why?03:25
persiaFujitsu: "Partner should be a special case of PPA"03:26
FujitsuAh, yes.03:26
ScottKFujitsu: Well I like that he supported the concept that it was wrong.  He's not an LP dev, so I don't worry so much about his, it'll be hard.03:26
persiaLaserJock: You aren't the master?03:26
LaserJockpersia: heh, I see03:26
StevenKFujitsu: What's wrong with that?03:26
ScottKWhen I see a non-canonical person with upload rightw to partner, then there's something to discuss.03:26
StevenKFujitsu: I see nothing displeasing about Colin's comment.03:27
ScottKrightw/rights03:27
LaserJockwell, it just doesn't bother me what they do much with partner03:27
persiaLaserJock: And rightly.03:27
LaserJockand I consider it to be generally a part of broader Ubuntu03:27
ScottKLaserJock: It only bother's me to the extent it affects Ubuntu's reputation.03:27
LaserJockso I would consider -devel an ok place to ask questions about it03:28
ScottKUploading known vulnerable software is not a good step.03:28
LaserJockfor lack of a better place perhaps03:28
ScottKimbrandon blogging got people's attention.03:28
* persia suggests that the issue is resolved, and that there are >1000 issues open that we can resolve that are more worthy of discussion03:28
LaserJockpersia: sure, it's just an interesting thing03:29
ScottKpersia: True, but the meta issue is relevant.03:29
LaserJockI generally try to only blog positive things03:29
FujitsuStevenK: Does it not basically say it won't be resolved in the near future?03:29
LaserJockbut what about when bad things happen, should be discuss things in blogs or no03:29
persiaScottK: LaserJock: Agreed, but I don't think this is a useful forum for resolution of those issues.03:29
LaserJockthat's the interesting part to me03:29
ScottKFujitsu: But that's about like me saying a Gnome bug will be tought to fix, so don't hold your breath.03:29
ScottKLaserJock: If we only talk about the good stuff we are marketing, not being a community.03:30
FujitsuScottK: This is something that is clearly wrong and most misleading.03:31
LaserJockScottK: yeah, but throwing around the dirty laundry isn't necessarily great either03:31
ScottKLaserJock: I'd say if people don't want blog entries about vulnerable software being uploaded to Ubuntu, then they shouldn't do it.03:32
* persia wonders if it's worth regenerating all the source packages that use the Homepage: header that were sync'd / merged prior to the new dpkg.03:32
ScottKAdditionally, I think proprietary developers working in a FOSS space get less slack.03:32
ScottKpersia: I'd say no.03:33
Fujitsupersia: The round of rebuilds will catch that, when/if we do them, so I'd wait...03:33
LaserJockScottK: proprietary developers?03:33
ScottKLaserJock: Partner is not a FOSS repository.03:33
persiaFujitsu: Rebuilds for uploads?  These would all be new-in-hardy packages.03:33
Fujitsupersia: It's likely that most will be uploaded again at some point, but we'll see...03:33
persiaFujitsu: Ah.  Good point.03:34
FujitsuThose that have been merged likely have maintainers that are alive.03:34
persiaFujitsu: Hmm..  But are such maintainers concerned?  I just don't know if it's actually an issue.  The package works, it's just the Homepage listings were silently dropped in many cases.  Likely only affects packages.ubuntu.com, if that code is updated to look for the header.03:35
Fujitsupersia: I meant maintainers in Debian, such that there will be a new version to merge before DIF. But I guess we're far too close for that now.03:36
persiaFujitsu: That was my thought.  Further, I don't think syncs need rebuild, just merges / refreshes / REVU / patches.03:37
persiaAnyway, I think you're right: it's a late-cycle thing to look to see what packages with Homepage: were uploaded before the new dpkg, and check to see if they still need refresh just before release.03:38
=== stdin_ is now known as stdin
FujitsuIt would have been a whole lot better if dpkg had been merged earlier.03:39
StevenKTo Ubuntu or Debian?03:39
FujitsuThe former.03:39
persiaStevenK: to Ubuntu (and, yes, we're all guilty)03:39
StevenKBut merging dpkg is *hard*03:42
persiaStevenK: That's why it was delayed :)03:42
LaserJockok, we'll see if I got shot for this03:50
* StevenK shoots LaserJock 03:50
persiaLaserJock: what?03:50
HobbseeLaserJock: ponies!03:50
StevenKRight!03:50
LaserJockpersia: uploading kmos' debdiff03:50
* persia thinks LaserJock is immune to being shot for ponies03:50
StevenKLaserJock: PONIES!03:50
persiaLaserJock: Remember, it's about the work, not the person.  Certain people just cause more effort when reviewing work.  Please leave a description of what should be done better next time in a comment.03:51
LaserJockpersia: it was actually good except for adding the patch thing, which was nixternal's fault anyway ;-)03:52
persiaLaserJock: In which case, the comment should reflect that.03:52
* persia notes that occasional rare praise is a good seasoning for excoriation.03:52
ScottKHello stratus.  I didn't notice you there.03:53
LaserJockpersia: I set it to "Fix Committed" is that alright?03:55
persiaLaserJock: That's what I do: it's not mandatory.  The changelog should be closing the bug.03:55
LaserJockright, I just didn't want to leave a comment saying I uploaded without changing the status03:56
FujitsuIt's fairly useless to set it these days; sources have publishing records create as uploads are processed, so the bug will be closed within 5 minutes of the dput.03:56
Fujitsus/create/created/03:56
LaserJockFujitsu: I just wanted the record03:56
persiaFujitsu: Agreed.  It's only meaningful in rare cases.03:56
LaserJockyikes03:58
LaserJockthis person bumped the version for each time he attached a new debdiff03:58
FujitsuHaha.03:59
persiaLaserJock: Someone from Debian mentors I expect.  Disabuse them gently, please.04:00
LaserJockpersia: you know I'm a softy ;-)04:00
LaserJockbah04:02
LaserJockI think they provided debdiffs to a package they put on REVU04:02
persiaLaserJock: A new package?  Which bug?04:02
LaserJocknew upstream04:02
persiaLaserJock: We do new upstream in UUS as well.04:03
LaserJockbug #17446704:03
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174467 in gnome-schedule "Please sponsor gnome-schedule-1.2.1 into Hardy" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17446704:03
LaserJockright, but they put the initial upstream on REVU and then put debdiffs for changes04:03
FujitsuThat's special.04:03
persiaLaserJock: Ah.  I see.  Generally we prefer all the changes wrapped in one revision, and an interdiff (until I can come up with something better: suggestions welcome)04:04
LaserJockwell, it would have been better to put it all on REVU IMO04:04
persiaLaserJock: I disagree, for all the reasons stated in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff04:05
LaserJockI don't really see any reasons listed there04:06
persiaLaserJock: Sections 3 & 4: deprecated foo04:07
LaserJockright, just found that04:07
LaserJockhmm04:08
LaserJockwell if people review right it shouldn't be a problem, IMO04:08
persiaLaserJock: I consider the matter open for discussion: if you've a suggestion of a better way, please share.04:08
LaserJockI see the point about it being a bit confusing to have both NEW and updated source packages on REVU04:09
LaserJockbut I don't see why a link to a dget'able would really be a problem04:09
persiaLaserJock: untrusted orig.tar.gz mostly.04:10
LaserJockbut I don't see an issue there04:10
LaserJockif it's a matter of people not doing a proper job of reviewing shouldn't we fix that?04:10
persiaEssentially, anyone who can upload something gets root on millions of systems.  For those who are insufficiently trusted to be able to upload directly to Debian or Ubuntu, hiding something in the orig.tar.gz is a good way to do interesting things.04:11
LaserJockright04:11
persiaLaserJock: How do we "fix that"?04:11
LaserJockbut that's the case always04:11
LaserJockwhy wouldn't you check?04:11
* ScottK applauds persia's level of paranoia.04:11
LaserJockwe should just put in a New Upstream Release Review checklist to check the .orig.tar.gz04:12
persiaLaserJock: If policy doesn't require get-orig-source / working watch file, how can you check?04:12
LaserJockyou go and download the source04:12
LaserJockthat's what I do anyway04:12
persiaIf policy does require it, why would you want to download it twice?04:12
persiaFrom where?04:12
LaserJockfrom the site of the app04:13
LaserJocksame as you would with a NEW package04:13
persiaLaserJock: And how do you get the site of the app?  How about for repacks?04:13
LaserJockdebian/copyright should say where you got the app04:13
persiaLaserJock: I don't like it for NEW either, but I don't have a good model that allows the flexibility of REVU yet.04:13
LaserJockand for repacks it should be documented04:14
persiaLaserJock: Right.  One of the goals of using interdiff is to change "should" to "must".04:14
LaserJockbut why not just make checking the .orig.tar.gz a  "must" then04:15
persiaLaserJock: No enforcement mechanism.04:15
LaserJockit seems like added complexity04:15
LaserJockpersia: so? isn't that part of being a MOTU04:15
persiaLaserJock: I make mistakes.  I expect you to make mistakes.  More importantly, I don't expect anyone else to be as paranoid as I am.04:15
LaserJockright, so we should have a minimal paranoid level and have that be policy04:16
LaserJockbut enforcement should be on MOTUs for the most part04:16
persiaLaserJock: Maybe.  I think it's easier just to not pass around large binary orig.tar.gzs that need reinspection.  Waste of bandwidth.04:17
LaserJockhmm, perhaps04:17
LaserJockbut I've heard people having problems with interdiffs so I don't think we should make it mandatory04:17
LaserJocksounds like it might be a good practice and a recommendation04:18
persiaLaserJock: What sorts of problems?04:18
* persia is working on a new system, but wants more input04:18
LaserJocknot being able to recreate the package correctly04:18
persiaLaserJock: Do you have an example?04:18
LaserJockno sorry04:19
LaserJockI just remember like a week ago or so somebody saying in here that they were screwed cause the interdiff didn't work, but they may have resolved it04:19
ScottKLaserJock: Were you at the meeting today?04:19
persiaThe only cases I've encountered so far were broken watch files, lack of get-orig-source for repacks, contributors sending interdiff -z -p1 foo bar.04:20
persiaOh, and one case where the new package didn't match upstream (as upstream hadn't released yet).04:20
LaserJockScottK: no sorry, I've actually never been able to make a MOTU Meeting in the last year or so :(04:21
* StevenK wonders if the dpkg in Debian now has triggers.04:21
* Fujitsu forgot about the meeting.04:21
ScottKLaserJock: No problem.  Just we discussed this today.  Someone (I don't recall who) persia? has started a script to make the interdiff bit easier.04:21
persiaMy (weak) script is at http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff (as it has been since the Interdiff docs were posted)04:22
ScottKHey everyone...04:22
LaserJockpersia: do you have to have a watch file or get-orig-source for interdiff to work?04:22
ScottKI'd like to introduce/reintroduce stratus.04:22
stratushey :)04:22
ScottKstratus is a DD interested in becomeing a MOTU.04:22
LaserJockhi stratus04:23
ScottKIn fact he was my first Debian sponsor.04:23
persiaLaserJock: No, it just makes reconstruction of orig.tar.gz lots easier, and the lack of a working watch file is considered a bug in Debian.04:23
stratushey LaserJock, what's up? :)04:23
persiastratus: Welcome.04:23
LaserJockstratus: workin' on stuff ;-)04:23
stratuspersia: hey, thanks! :)04:23
stratusLaserJock: heh as usual, I guess.04:24
LaserJockpersia: hmm, I'm not sure I totally agree with that04:24
LaserJockstratus: yeah04:24
LaserJockpersia: I've run across sources that may be impossible to automate getting the .orig.tar.gz04:24
persiaLaserJock: Which?  That a watch file should be required?  Especially with team maintenance, how else are we to know about new upstream versions?04:24
stratusbtw, I've forwarded ScottK a entire new package and I will have some patches to other stuff anytime soon04:24
persiaLaserJock: I don't believe you (for non-native).  Show me the package, and I'll write a get-orig-source.04:25
stratusthat's why I decided come out of the shadows again and become a MOTU, since it wil be easier upload by myself in due time04:25
persiastratus: The best way to get your patches in is likely to attach a debdiff to a bug, and subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors queue.  That way, you don't need to rely only on ScottK (although that works too).04:25
ScottKWhich I'm going to upload for him (he's just moved and is currently GPG key contrained).04:25
stratuspersia: oh, I heard about that. thanks! :)04:26
LaserJockpersia: well, I'm pretty sure I've come across a few  science packages that had no machine downloadable sources04:26
ScottKAssuming it builds and produces a sane package, I'll advocate it.04:26
stratusI moved and then went on road to US, so decided to keep my priv key secured at $HOME :)04:26
=== asac_ is now known as asac
persiaLaserJock: Really?  Please point me towards them if you encounter them again.  It's likely one of A) Odd upstream, B) Orphaned upstream (and in need of adoption), or C) very weak documentation.04:27
LaserJockusually A, sometimes B04:28
persiaIn the case of A), it's worth checking with upstream to find out why they don't distribute source, and inviting them to use one of the many fine distribution services.  In the case of B, it's worth adopting the package to a new project on one of those distribution services.04:28
LaserJockthere are a few that are no longer available online, but of course then we'd not be expecting a lot of new upstreams04:29
persiaLaserJock: That would be B), and I'd encourage the creation of a project on sourceforge, google code, launchpad, savannah, etc.04:30
persiaErr.  "one of" should be in there somewhere.04:30
LaserJockwell sure, that may be nice04:30
persiaLaserJock: Takes about 20 minutes :)04:30
LaserJockI'm just saying that you can't assure that 100% of packages have a machine downloadable upstream04:30
persiaLaserJock: Further, it's essential to ensure the code can be shared between all distributions, making the general cause of free software stronger.04:31
LaserJockyep04:31
LaserJockI had a talk with Fink (OS X stuff) about watch files once04:31
LaserJockthey wanted to use Debian to track software, but since there were so few watch files it was impossible to do it04:32
LaserJockperhaps the situation is much better now04:33
persiaLaserJock: Right.  For some things, watch files don't work (I've been given many cases), but even for those, one can construct an orig.tar.gz, as long as upstream exists.04:33
LaserJocksure04:34
LaserJockit's not currently that way04:34
persiaFurther, for packages updated in Ubuntu, I think it's not much extra effort to generate the watch file / get-orig-source as compared to integrating the new upstream in the packaging.04:34
LaserJockbut it'd be nice04:34
persiaLaserJock: So, in the spirit of "it'd be nice", join in enforcement for new upstream candidates :)04:35
ScottKpersia: But we don't have (widely accepted) something like Debian QA page where you see when your packages need updating.04:35
LaserJockhmm, that enforcement bit is what gets me ;-)04:35
persiaScottK: What's wrong with http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/ ?  For stuff in Debian, I'll trust the maintainer, but for the rest...04:35
ScottKpersia: That's where the 'widely accepted' bit came in.  Now that we have that watch files make more sense, but people have to know about it.04:36
persiaScottK: OK.  I admit I'm behind on documentation and annoucements :)04:37
* persia notes that others are more than welcome to advocate and promote QA efforts.04:37
ScottKpersia: Is that all of Ubuntu or just Universe?04:37
persiaScottK: That's just packages in Ubuntu that aren't in Debian and haven't been removed from Debian.04:38
ScottKOK.04:38
persia(main+restricted+universe+multiverse)04:38
persiaEssentially, the stuff we're supposed to be maintaining.04:38
ScottKIt'd be interesting to add stuff that's been orphaned in Debian to that as it's officially unmaintained there too.04:39
persiaScottK: Agreed.  Do you know an easy way to extract that list?04:39
pwnguinScottK: you defy the way of the TopPost?04:40
ScottKpwnguin: I do.04:41
ScottKpersia: Maintainer is set to Debian QA group?04:41
* Fujitsu doesn't think that covers all of them.04:41
ScottKDoesnt' that get set once something's officially orphaned?04:42
ScottKAgreed that there's stuff that's abandoned unofficially?04:42
FujitsuOn the first upload, probably.04:42
* Fujitsu adds them to the list.04:42
persiaFujitsu: At least the vast majority, no?  The others would be MIA or ITO, but not yet orphaned, I think.04:42
Fujitsupersia: By ITO you mean RFA?04:43
FujitsuOr is there an ITO?04:43
* persia checks04:43
persiaFujitsu: http://www.infodrom.org/Debian/doc/acronyms.html tells me "Intend to Orphan" is distinct from "Request for Adoption"04:45
FujitsuOh.04:45
persiaHmm..  On the other hand, http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ tells me it should just be O:04:46
FujitsuI would have thought that RFA and ITO would have served similar purposes, right...04:46
FujitsuAs if you're intending to orphan it, you're asking for somebody to adopt it, but it still has a maintainer, which is what RFA is for...04:46
persiaFujitsu: I think it depends on the goal.  In the RFA case, the maintainer is looking for someone to take over, but will handle it in the meantime.  In the ITO case, the maintainer is declaring no further interest (which ought be O:, so perhaps I agree with you)04:47
FujitsuHm, I guess.04:47
FujitsuAnyway.04:47
persiaSo the new filter will be Ubuntu-local + Maintainer: Debian QA Group ?04:47
FujitsuI suspect so.04:48
jcastrohttp://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/12/ubuntu_innovates_excuses.html?CMP=OTC-0O724Z062301&ATT=Ubuntu+Innovates+Excuses04:58
jcastroyou guys see this?04:58
mgunesjcastro, yes04:59
Fujitsujcastro: No, and it doesn't look like I really want to...04:59
LucidFoxWell, bah.04:59
jcastrowell, just wondering04:59
jcastroI don't even know what aumix is05:00
LucidFoxIt's just a rant based on a person's misunderstanding of the Ubuntu development process.05:00
persiaLucidFox: Well, perhaps.  It might also be that we expect a lot from our bug submitters.05:01
jcastrohahah05:01
jcastrodude, it's just some ncurses volume thing05:01
jcastrothe article made it seem like the world was collapsing05:02
persiajcastro: It doesn't really matter what it is: we do the same thing for nearly all reports.  On the other hand, we usually try to fix them in the dev environment first, and are currently reworking our SRU processing to try to catch more of those.05:02
persiaDoes anyone happen to know the status of current deliberations for appointing ~motu-sru members?05:02
* jcastro nods05:02
jcastropersia: I would guess that you guys get dinged for every nook-and-cranny package05:03
persiajcastro: Well, somewhat.  Bugsquad does an admirable job of filtering the requests.05:04
LaserJockpersia: it's RSN05:04
jcastropersia: I was being sarcastic, given the stupidity of the article.05:05
LaserJockjcastro: it's a semi-legit complaint, IMO, but it's kind of a weird thing to blog about05:05
persiajcastro: Actually, I think the article addresses a valid point: we're very focused on our processes, and have begun to expect all bug submitters to participate.05:06
jcastrowell ...05:06
jcastroI mean .. come on ...05:06
LaserJockcome on what?05:06
jcastroi can think of 50 bugs right now that are more important05:06
persiaWe'd do better if bugsquad was more freindly, and there were stronger filtering mechanisms feeding the Contributors.05:06
jcastrothan some console volume mixer05:06
LaserJockwe released an unusable package! that's uncool05:06
jcastroI mean, yeah, I agree, having things busted sucks05:07
persiajcastro: Maybe, but they are also likely harder.  That's a rebuild: takes all of two minutes to verify, and two minutes to sponsor.  Good for a new contributor.05:07
LaserJockjcastro: it's actually a fairly used package I think, compared to much of Univerrse05:07
jcastroI thought alsamixer was the popular curses volume package thing05:07
ScottK2And if it's actually busted and it's actually a regression, it does qualify for an SRU.05:08
Fujitsu1569  aumix                           1967   260  1579   125     3 (Romain Francoise)05:08
FujitsuScottK2: It was rejected because it apparently wasn't fixed in Hardy yet.05:08
persiajcastro: Indeed, and aumix is not useful on most current Ubuntu systems, but it's still symptomatic of a larger issue.05:08
Fujitsu(that's from the universe stats, so it's in the top 10%)05:08
mgunesHardy seems to have a newer version05:08
jcastropersia: ok, so now /that/ statement makes sense to me05:08
ScottKWell that's not a reason to reject it, just say not yet.05:09
jcastropersia: I still think her bug is an edge case, but you guys are way more experienced in this kind of thing, so continue pls.05:09
persiajcastro: Essentially, if we release something that's broken (even if it's useless), and it takes 5 minutes to fix, it's better to spend the 5 minutes.  It now being fixed in Hardy (new revision forced a rebuild), it should get SRU attention.  The SRU team doesn't currently exist, so it's in limbo.05:09
LaserJockjcastro: what package it is is almost irrelevant05:10
mgunesThe person seems to interpret the declining of the SRU nomination as a "wontfix", which isn't the case; the bug's status is "Triaged".05:10
ScottK2Well that's what decline means.05:10
persiamgunes: Agreed.  The reporter would have done better to understand it.05:10
FujitsuI don't quite see why it was declined...05:10
LaserJockyes, but it comes across as "well, we're gonna pass on a technicality"05:10
* persia prefers to leave nominations open until there is a specific reason for declination.05:11
jcastroLaserJock: good point05:11
LaserJockFujitsu: because SRUs are supposed to be fixed in Hardy first05:11
FujitsuLaserJock: That would at worst leave the task as New or Incomplete.05:11
FujitsuDeclining says it will not be fixed in that release.05:11
* mgunes subscribes heno05:11
LaserJockFujitsu: what is it? I didn't bother to open it?05:11
LaserJockmgunes: why?05:11
persiaLaserJock: Bug #14580505:11
ubotuLaunchpad bug 145805 in aumix "aumix throws error aumix:  SOUND_MIXER_READ_DEVMASK" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/14580505:11
FujitsuLaserJock: The task itself was declined.05:11
Fujitsujcastro: Thanks for pointing the article out.05:12
jcastroLaserJock: I guess it just irks me that someone in the media won't bother to follow up on a bug05:12
mgunesLaserJock, he may be interested in posting a clarification05:12
LaserJockjcastro: dude, you can't expect *anybody* to work with our processes05:12
persiajcastro: The trick is that it's not their job to do so.  It's the job of the Contributors (MOTU & not) to find the triaged bugs, and get the patches in.05:12
ScottK2LaserJock: The comment that Henrik sounds like a pretty definitive fuck off we ain't fixing it.05:12
jcastrowell, I've had plenty of media people ask me about bugs05:13
persiaScottK: Yes.  That's a separate issue, and also needs resolution.05:13
jcastroshe could have at least asked someone05:13
mgunesScottK2, it's a canned comment, isn't it?05:13
ScottK2mgunes: It is, but it's the wrong one for this situation.05:13
persiajcastro: I'd agree that asking a media contact before posting an article is preferable, but it doesn't address the actual issue, which is that the text is not ideal, and the task should not have been declined.05:13
LaserJockwell, that's a policy misunderstanding I think05:13
LaserJockbecause a nomination doesn't mean the SRU is approved05:14
jcastropersia: tbh, she's not exactly ubuntu friendly05:14
persiajcastro: That's all the more reason why we should fix it internally :)05:14
jcastroyeah05:14
LaserJocka nomination should generally be accepted if it's got a chance of making it05:14
jcastroI'm just whining about her at this point05:14
LaserJockjcastro: :-)05:15
LaserJockit's a bit much, but the complaint is legit in this case05:15
LaserJockIMO at least05:15
* persia triages the bug again05:15
ScottK2persia: Check what I just did first05:16
persiaScottK: Excellent.  I'm testing, and expect to close the Hardy task.05:16
jcastropersia: do you guys typically have your MOTU meetings the time you did today?05:17
FujitsuThankyou ScottK2.05:17
ScottK2BTW, when you decline a task, LP tells you "... Declining a nomination will show on the bug page that this bug will not be fixed in that specific release."05:18
persiajcastro: We rotate between 12:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC.  Requests for 04:00 UTC have been few.05:18
ScottK2So her understanding was exactly correct.05:18
jcastropersia: does dholbach typically attend?05:18
FujitsuScottK2: That's what I thought.05:18
persiajcastro: About 75% of the time.  He noted he wouldn't make this one at the last one.05:19
jcastropersia: ah ok.05:19
jcastropersia: when he's absent and you need a canonical person to bitch at, I typically always idle on #u-motu and #u-meeting05:19
LaserJockjcastro: why would we need to do that? :-)05:20
persiajcastro: We try not to focus on canonical vs. non-canonical in those meetings: more about the community processes and goals for keeping universe in shape.05:20
jcastroLaserJock: well, we're both on the community team05:20
ScottK2What's the preferred approach in the .desktop file for a package that needs to run as root and can be used from within KDE and Gnome?05:20
jcastropersia: well, what I wanted to say was that if you needed to get something to daniel I can do that for you05:20
persiajcastro: You're more than welcome to attend, and your voice is appreciated, but it's not really a Canonical forum: those meetings are fortnightly on Thursday nights.05:21
ScottK2Exec=gksu disk-manager isn't getting the job done in KDE.05:21
persiajcastro: He (as all MOTUs) is expected to read the minutes :)05:21
jcastropersia: I deal with upstreams, not MOTU, but we're still teammates, and since he's like 5 hours ahead of me, if he's asleep, I can help handle things05:21
jcastropersia: noted (on the meetings)05:22
persiajcastro: Thanks for that.  Any opinion on adopting orphaned upstreams into LP projects?05:22
jcastropersia: I am dealing with one of those now05:22
ScottK2persia: Why would we want to do that?05:22
jcastroI don't know what the solution is05:22
persiaScottK2: Sometimes orphaned code is useful.05:22
ScottK2persia: Got any thoughts on my .desktop question above^^^05:23
persiaScottK: No.  I suspect it has to do with the relation of gksu to KDE somehow.  I'm presuming that the same command also doesn't work from the command-line.05:23
ScottK2No.  It wouldn't05:24
persiaScottK: We've heaps & heaps of gksu in .desktop files.  Is there a way to get at least a wrapper in default KDE?05:24
=== mgunes is now known as `23meg
ScottK2persia: Dunno.  I'll ask ridell about it tomorrw.  I guess I'll just leave it gksu for now and sort it out later.05:25
=== `23meg is now known as mgunes
FujitsuHopefully everything will be using Root^WPolicyKit soon.05:26
persiaScottK: Try with /usr/bin/su-to-root05:27
ScottK2Trying05:27
ScottK2persia: bash: /usr/bin/su-to-root: No such file or directory05:28
persiaScottK: install the menu package.05:29
LucidFoxsikon@lucidfox:~$ which su-to-root05:29
LucidFox/usr/sbin/su-to-root05:29
* persia grumbles about continuing disconnect between menu planning in Ubuntu and Debian05:29
LaserJockyeah, loads of fun05:30
persiaRight.  So if su-to-root isn't available by default, and gksu doesn't work in KDE, how should packages gain root if they need it?05:30
* ScottK2 doesn't know. That's why I asked. Maybe imbrandon knows.05:31
LaserJockwell, kde apps would use kdesu I would assume05:31
LaserJockbut as far as DE-neutral I'm not sure05:31
ScottK2LaserJock: Yes.  So then what would Gnome use.05:31
ScottK2Yeah.  That's the problem.05:31
LaserJockScottK: kdesu ;-)05:32
ScottK2I'm good with that.05:32
ScottK2Actuall I think we have kdesudo now.05:32
ScottK2Actuall/Actually05:32
persiaI'm not.05:32
LaserJockthat's why I install both ubuntu-desktop and kubuntu-desktop05:32
ScottK2I wouldn't expect you to be.05:32
persiaLaserJock: Sure, but we can't expect everyone to do that.05:33
ScottK2We aren't all so flexible05:33
* persia wants something that works for Gnome, KDE, XFCE, and Fluxbox05:33
ScottK2If it's a Gnome app, maybe it should just depend on gksu?05:33
LaserJockpersia: of course05:33
jcastrothere's a spec for this05:33
jcastroI know it was talked about at uds05:34
persiajcastro: Do you happen to know which?  Also, do you know why we don't just use su-to-root, and include the menu package?05:34
persia(or the code extracted therefrom)05:34
jcastroin boston05:34
jcastroI don't recall ever hearing anything about su-to-root05:34
jcastrojust a policykit session05:34
jcastrolet me dig it up05:35
persiaAh.  PolicyKit.05:35
jcastrohttps://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/killall-gksudo05:35
persiajcastro: That solves a slightly different issue.  In the one case, the app shouldn't have root for most things, and should use PolicyKit (good for main), in the other upstream doesn't do this, and requires root to work, so we need su-to-root or the equivalent (for universe).05:37
jcastropersia: I don't know one way or another what the implementation details of the spec are05:37
jcastroI just know the discussion existed05:37
persiajcastro: Understood :)05:37
persia(and thanks for pointing to it)05:37
jcastrowe had david zeuthen join the discussion05:38
jcastrowhich was cool05:38
jcastro(the red hat guy)05:38
LaserJockScottK: maybe it's worth an email to -devel or -motu?05:38
* persia seconds LaserJock05:39
jcastropersia: I've seen it working out on fedora8, it's pretty awesome ...05:40
* ScottK is doing actual packaging work right now, so would prefer someone else writes it.05:40
jcastroit'll rock for hardy+105:40
persiajcastro: Agreed.  It's cool, it just requires big patches, which is hard for > 10,000 packages.05:40
* ScottK still has a hard time understanding the point of a common front end for dis-similar backends.05:41
jcastroagreed05:41
persiaScottK: That should happen when they perform a common function.  Does it matter if I use midori or konqueror?05:42
ScottKpersia: But they don't.  For one distro they manage RPMs and for another .debs.  They aren't the same.05:42
persiaAh.  That's just odd.05:43
* TheMuso returns, guessing that the discussion is about policykit05:43
ScottKTheMuso guesses right.05:43
LaserJockwait05:44
LaserJockpackagekit or policykit05:44
ScottKI looked at their web site and I still don't get it.05:44
jcastro2 different things LaserJock05:44
* ScottK is talking about packagekit actually.05:44
ScottKNow that you mention it.05:44
LaserJockjcastro: I know, it just looked like we were talking about both at the same time05:44
* persia doesn't really understand nor like packagekit. The semantics of package management differ significantly between packaging systems.05:45
jcastropersia: it has a backend thing05:45
jcastroyou can use the frontend on fedora or ubuntu and not be able to tell the difference05:45
* Fujitsu points persia at the somewhat expanded and up-to-date UEHS.05:46
jcastrowell, other than the amount of packages05:46
persiajcastro: Sure, but the semantics differ.  The user goal might be to install a program, but what happens is different at a greater level than what dependencies are installed.05:46
jcastropersia: hmm, true true05:47
LaserJockjcastro: if we just got rid of Fedora/Madriva and RPMs we'd be set05:47
LaserJockand openSUSe I guess05:47
persiaFujitsu: Looks great.  Thanks.05:47
jcastroI dunno05:48
jcastroI like the idea of one update manager for everyone05:48
LaserJockI think it makes sense05:49
LaserJockI just wonder how the implementation will go05:50
LaserJockand if it'll actually go that way05:50
LaserJockpeople like to be different ;-)05:50
ScottKLaserJock: Why not do one for Windows too then?05:50
LaserJockwell, I'm not gonna do one that's for sure05:51
* imbrandon points out there is apt for w32 and *_w32.deb files05:52
* ScottK neither, but I guess my point is that installing an RPM and a DEB are two almost totally different things. I don't see the advantage to a common front end for two different things.05:52
* imbrandon goes back to sleep05:52
persiaLaserJock: Think diversity.  Without others, it's hard to compare and be strong.05:52
LaserJockScottK: because installing a DEB or RPM isn't the point, installing software is05:52
LaserJockso the backend can handle the differences05:52
jcastroimbrandon: dude, I'm stepping out for a smoke05:52
imbrandonhehe05:53
jcastrolet's burn a virtual one.05:53
persiajcastro: One update manager is nice in some ways, but because the way it works is so different, it will likely cause more confusion than happiness.  Essentially, what works for one person is likely to not work the same way for another.05:53
imbrandonkk05:53
LaserJockbut the frontend allows people to write documentation easier and allows users a better experience05:53
persiaLaserJock: It's not just packaging differences: there are semantic differences.05:53
LaserJockpersia: how do you mean?05:53
jcastropersia: let me have a smoke with imbrandon, I'll be back. :D05:53
persiajcastro: You cold always move to a country that didn't require a break :)05:53
imbrandonmmm instant mashed pataoes + bacon bits + cheeese + microwave == good after some crown and coke :)05:55
persiaLaserJock: 1) There isn't a firm mapping between RPMs and DEBs.  2) The nature of the meanings of Depends:, Recommends:, and Suggests: are slightly different, 3) Depending on distro choices, what may work somewhere breaks somewhere else (e.g. using VLC to generate JACK input for transforms of movie soundtracks)05:55
LaserJockpersia: to me that's all backend stuff though05:56
persiaLaserJock: Right.  To translate to front end: 1) means users need to install a different set of packages, 2) means that the functionality provided is undecidable, and 3) means that even when one tracks it down, it may not mean the same thing.05:56
jcastroit is all backend stuff.05:57
jcastropersia: to fill you in ...05:57
imbrandonwhat did i walk into, deb vs rpm? you all rember one thing, deb and rpm are VERY VERY similar file formats, now if you mean rpm vs dpkg thats totaly diffrent05:57
persiaAs a result, user forums for packaging kit have little to share except for a single distibution, further splintering things.  Because the backend is exposed, all users of e.g. synaptic can share their experiences for Debian, Ubuntu, MEPIS, etc.05:57
jcastropersia: there was a packagekit bof at fosscamp, and there ubuntu guys there, fedora, and rpath guys.05:58
jcastroand to be honest there was no real debate05:58
jcastroeveryone loves PK05:58
jcastrothe suse guys dig it too05:58
persiajcastro: Sure.  I suspect they arrived at some useful commonalities.  I still think the sematics are different, and that the participants are awed by excellent execution, and not thinking about support.05:59
jcastrothe discussion was all about backends05:59
jcastrosynaptic isn't going away, for example, or apt or anything05:59
TheMusoIMO if someone comes up with a way to binary patch packages, as in, downlading only patches to change binaries, and not the whole package, they will win support from all.06:00
TheMusodownloading06:00
persiajcastro: Unless we all package the same software by the same name with the same structure of Dependencies, Recommendations, and Suggestions, I'm still not happy, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.06:00
jcastrothe idea is that everyone has the same update-manager06:00
LaserJockpersia: why would it matter?06:00
LaserJockI don't quite get it06:00
imbrandonpersia: why would that matter06:00
* TheMuso agrees with persia 06:00
imbrandonpersia: htat would make one better than the other but still, even debian and ubuntu differ on those respoects06:01
persiaLaserJock: Because the two users of different distributions cannot expect the same behaviour from the same set of actions.  This is not currently the case for Fedora+SuSE or Debian+Ubuntu+MEPIS06:01
persiaimbrandon: Not very much, semantically.06:01
imbrandonpersia: sure it is06:01
crimsunI often wonder why we don't rsync our package updates.06:01
imbrandonvery much dosent == not at all06:01
TheMusocrimsun: You'd need a deb to base it on locally would you not.06:02
TheMusos/./?/06:02
persiaimbrandon: Sure, but it's expanded greatly when you mix with Fedora/SuSE06:02
jcastropersia: spend sometime reading the PK docs, and playing with the ppa06:02
Fujitsucrimsun: Load on servers.06:02
jcastroit's actually quite sweet06:02
jcastrocrimsun: hi btw!06:02
persiajcastro: I can't play with a PPA without allowing arbitrary upload to the repos06:02
imbrandonpersia: i think the percption between the diffrences of ubuntu and debian are small but in reality are very very difffrent06:02
imbrandoneven in this case06:02
persiaimbrandon: Sure, but not very different semantically.06:03
LaserJockbut why does it matter?06:03
LaserJockall the user wants to do is install app X06:03
jcastropersia: I'm using deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/packagekit/ubuntu gutsy main06:03
persiaLaserJock: So that all the random web pages out there don't offer advice that very well may not work for a given user, causing a general dissatisfaction.06:03
LaserJockpersia: what?06:04
persiajcastro: Ah.  s/a PPA/the PPA/.  Sorry.  I'll take a look.06:04
jcastropersia: the apt backend needs a bit of love, but the idea is sound06:04
LaserJocknothing changes really except the frontend no?06:04
persiaLaserJock: If two users on different systems cannot expect the same behaviour from the same actions, and the same tool is advocated for both, it can be a source of user confusion.06:04
jcastroa common add/remove programs for everyone, along with an update manager06:05
LaserJockpersia: right now the case is way worse though06:05
LaserJockyou have different frontends that do different things06:05
persiaLaserJock: Why?  Each distribution set with common semantics has a common set of tools.06:05
LaserJockI don't care about semantics06:05
LaserJockthe user just wants to install app X06:06
LaserJockhaving a common GUI gives some familiarity06:06
persiaLaserJock: Right, but if the same action produces different results, how is this useful?06:07
LaserJockbecause it installs what they want06:07
LaserJockand it's a common interface06:07
FujitsuNot necessarily!06:07
crimsun(as an aside, I wonder how useful it would be to have per-application volume for pulseaudio tied to window focus ala a compiz* plugin)06:08
Fujitsucrimsun: As a plugin, that would be cool.06:08
imbrandonpersia: if it DOSENT produce diffrent resuls would be the goal of the tool, the getting there might be diffrent for each distro but the end result will be the same06:08
imbrandone.g. X is installed06:08
persiaimbrandon: Right, but the semantics are differnt.06:08
imbrandonpersia: exactly but users dont nor should care about those, only developtrs06:09
LaserJockpersia: you have a legitimate point that users from different distros will get different packages installed06:09
LaserJockbut that's not really the point06:09
persiaimbrandon: No, the semantics are different.  The users need to think differently to achieve the results.  A new common set of semantics can be established, but that requires retraining for everyone.06:10
LaserJockthe point, I believe, it to provide a common interface to installing software06:10
imbrandonpersia: no retraining only for developrs of the inter4gration tool, not "everone"06:10
persiaLaserJock: Yes it is.  It means that searching the web for someone who had the problem before and resolved it is no longer a useful way to find solutions.06:10
LaserJockpersia: why not?06:11
persiaimbrandon: If you change the semantics, all users (including you) need to alter thinking to match the new semantics.06:11
imbrandonno no no06:11
imbrandonnot at all06:11
imbrandonnot ifd the tool does its job06:11
persiaLaserJock: Because the information available for a web page is no longer expected to be the same for my local environment.06:11
LaserJockpersia: why not?06:11
LaserJockI don't really get it06:11
FujitsuTo make everything work uniformly, we would need strictly defined standards of how every single package is split, built, etc.06:12
imbrandonpersia: thats the same if you move from epiphany to firefox06:12
imbrandonand change will produce that result06:12
LaserJockthe packages are the same so the solutions are the same06:12
persiaimbrandon: Yes.  if the semantics are different now, the tool must select one set of semantics, prepare a new common set of semantics, or not behave identically in differing environments.06:12
LaserJockpersia: I'm still not getting it, how are we changing semantics?06:13
persiaLaserJock: The packages aren't the same.  That's the point.06:13
LaserJockyes they are06:13
imbrandoni cant express how wrong you are on irc, i guess i will have to write a paper06:13
LaserJockyou're still doing .debs and .rpms or whatever06:13
persiaLaserJock: No.  Go review the package sets for Fedora and SuSE, and compare.  Binary packages are very frequently split differently.06:13
LaserJockpersia: but that doesn't matter doesn't it?06:14
imbrandonpersia: and that matters not to an end result, only how you get ther06:14
LaserJockthat's the whole point of the backends06:14
TheMusoLaserJock: It matters a lot06:14
* Fujitsu finds persia's point very, very valid.06:14
persiaimbrandon: I agree that there is a semantic change from firefox to epiphany.  If the new tool defines a common set of semantics, I'm happy, but I don't see that.06:14
imbrandonpersia: just existing it does06:14
persiaLaserJock: Yes it does, because it changes what gets installed for any given action.06:14
LaserJockpersia: no it doesn't06:15
LaserJockwhy would it?06:15
imbrandonpersia: but as long as the backend is smart enough to keep track of that wtf does it matter06:15
LaserJockmaybe I'm lost06:15
persiaimbrandon: No, it needs to define the semantics.  If it follows the distribution guidelines, the behaviour is different for different distributions, for the same actions in the same tools.06:15
persiaLaserJock: Because the packages are split differently, the same actions in the same installation tool will cause different changes to the installed system.  As a result, the mapping between user action and result will not match between distributions, for the same actions in the same tool.06:16
LaserJockpersia: ok, but who cares?06:16
imbrandonif i request to install <blah> on suse and it installs <blah> + libblah-dev and blah2, on debian it only installs <blah> + blah2 WTF does it matter, i only requested <blah>06:16
imbrandonthats the whole point06:16
Fujitsuimbrandon: It's not just dependencies.06:17
LaserJockthe point isn't to make the distros all the same06:17
FujitsuIt could be a package split, or alternate flavours.06:17
LaserJockit's just a common user interface for installing packages06:17
imbrandonFujitsu: and ? how does that make the front end diffrent ?06:17
LaserJockit's not changing package formats or how we package, etc.06:17
persiaRight.  So when I put up my new cool software, and find that the tool works for me, and all my users complain that it doesn't install libfoo support (as one distribution split the packages differently), how do I support that?06:18
Fujitsuimbrandon: That's the point: it looks the same, but does different things!06:18
persiaDo I write separate installation guides for each distribution?  If I'm doing that, why would I want a common tool?06:18
imbrandonpersia: thats a per distro issue NOT a tool issue06:18
FujitsuEeexactly.06:18
Fujitsu(to persia's last line, that is)06:18
LaserJockbecause a common user interface is much easier06:18
persiaimbrandon: Exactly.  And a single tool that is intended to act the same, but requires per-distro changes is hard to support.06:18
imbrandonpersia: because it makes sense for one less thing to be diffrent06:18
LaserJockand for the vast majority of apps it should be just fine06:18
imbrandonpersia: easier to support than how it is now06:19
persiaLaserJock: How is a common interface easier when the behaviour cannot be documented?06:19
persiaimbrandon: Yes.06:19
Fujitsuimbrandon: One more thing that is the same, but is not?06:19
imbrandonFujitsu: its exactly the same, the APPS work diffrent06:19
imbrandonyou have the EXACT same issue on debian and ubuntu06:19
LaserJockpersia: because you can say "To install X open up PackageKit and click blah and do foo"06:19
persiaimbrandon: Sure, so we get lots of reports that "blender is broken in Ubuntu, and only works in Fedora", when it works fine in Ubuntu, except that the installation mecahnism is different.06:20
persiaimbrandon: But not as much because the packages are 99% split the same.06:20
FujitsuLaserJock: And then we have `oh dear, X is split up differently WHERE IS MY FEATURE?'06:20
imbrandonpersia: your mixxing app behavure and tool behavure, TOTALY diffrent06:20
imbrandonFujitsu: you also06:21
LaserJockFujitsu: well, yes, that's gonna happen some, but a common interface is at least easier06:21
persiaLaserJock: How is it easer?  For whom?06:21
LaserJockbetter than documenting yum, synaptic, g-a-i, yast, etc.06:21
Fujitsuimbrandon: The tool should behave similarly in all instances if it is the same tool.06:21
imbrandonFujitsu: so what does that matter to the interface ?06:21
FujitsuIf it is installing different things, it is behaving differently.06:21
imbrandonFujitsu: no it shouldent, then adept shouldent be in ubuntu and debian06:21
persiaimbrandon: The tool is inherently unsupportable if the behavior cannot be mapped to user actions.06:21
ScottK2imbrandon: Common interface to different functions is dangerous.06:21
imbrandonScottK2: same functions diffrent app06:22
LaserJockScottK2: but it's still just installing software06:22
persiaLaserJock: Yes, which is only simple for a given common set of semantics.06:22
ScottK2LaserJock and imbrandon: Yes, but that's not all you're doing.06:22
LaserJockyeah, but the problem is worse now06:22
imbrandonif what you are saying is correct , then apt for rpm wuld fail and not exist06:22
* persia is not opposed to packagekit defining a common set of semantics, but doesn't see that in the code anywhere06:22
LaserJockyou're not making the issue worse by having a common interface I can't imagine06:22
FujitsuLaserJock: If things look identical, there will be more expectation that doing the same thing on two instances will give the same result.06:23
persiaimbrandon: No, but apt for RPM behaves differently than apt for DEB, and yum is generally recommended as a preferred alternative.06:23
LaserJockFujitsu: well yes, that's always the case06:23
LaserJockbut software does that a lot06:23
imbrandonper not at all06:23
LaserJockand in this case I don't think it's very much06:23
ScottK2Unless you have opensuse 10.1, then apt is really good to have.06:23
imbrandonpersia: ^06:23
persiaLaserJock: Right, so why create a identical interface that is known not to behave identically.06:23
LaserJockpersia: why not? I guess is my point06:24
FujitsuLaserJock: There are some minor differences now... We're much, much, much closer to Debian that we are to $RPMDISTRO06:24
LaserJockit'd be nice to be able to install Fedora and see a common install interface06:24
LaserJocklike when I see evolution and Firefox, etc.06:24
persiaLaserJock: OK.  Good point.  I guess mine is that I wouldn't prefer to see it standardised for the distribution I spend time supporting.06:24
LaserJockthey may act differently, but well, you get over that06:24
persiaLaserJock: Sure, but epiphany in Fedora and epiphany in MEPIS are essentially the same.06:25
LaserJockpersia: well, not necessarily06:25
imbrandonpersia: it wouldnt make a lick of diffrence for distro support, whaat your talking about is multi-disro suppotr06:26
persiaFirefox vs. Epiphany is $favorite-RPM-semantics-tool vs. $favorite-DEB-semantics-tools06:26
LaserJocksay we split up the epiphany extensions in a separate package06:26
LaserJockand Fedora doesn't06:26
LaserJockyou're gonna get different results06:26
persiaimbrandon: No, it makes a difference for distro support, as searching the web no longer helps: users have to ask the distro.06:26
LaserJockbut if you search for epiphany on both distros you can reasonably get what you want06:26
persiaLaserJock: Sure, but the user has a different semantic framework, and installs the right support, or understands why.06:27
LaserJockpersia: how so?06:27
imbrandonpersia: as they do now, the only thing on the "web" is generic linux, and that only works if you dont use thedisro provided tools, e.g. compile from source etc etc etc06:27
LaserJockpersia:  well, I see your point, but I don't think PackageKit is trying to resolve that problem06:27
persiaLaserJock: But if you search for how to install epiphany with packagekit, the instructions may not be right for your distro (see your example above)06:27
persiaLaserJock: I agree, I just don't think that the problem PackageKit is solving is worth solving without common semantics.06:28
imbrandonsure installing it would be exactly the same, but what it installs woudl be diffrent06:28
imbrandonas is now06:28
LaserJockpersia: that may be06:28
LaserJockbut I don't see how it would make the problem worse really06:28
imbrandonso your taking one thing away, the diffrence on the install proceedure, not the diffrnce on what it installs06:28
persiaLaserJock: Because the set of actions for a user to take when using PackageKit differs between distributions, so a search on "packagekit epiphany" is much less likely to generate something useful than a search on e.g. "synaptic epiphany"06:29
imbrandonpersia: how? htat is totaly wrong06:30
persiaimbrandon: That would make me happy, but requires that PackageKit define a common set of semantics for all distributions.06:30
imbrandonpersia: not really if it uses each distros aleadu defined semantics06:30
persiaimbrandon: Because the mapping between user action and behaviour is not guaranteed without common semantics06:30
persiaimbrandon: If it uses each distros semantics, then my point about web searches applies.06:31
imbrandonsure it is06:31
LaserJockI can't imagine that it would  be a bigger problem that currently exists06:31
imbrandonugh you have the app mixed with the tool a little much in your reasoning, think about this .... ( one sec )06:32
LaserJockbut for sure it'd be nice to have a common semantics to go with it06:32
persiaimbrandon: How?  Without common semantics, installing a package doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.06:32
imbrandonwhat is the problem if the end result is EXACTLY the same as now, but the road to get there is the same for all distros06:32
imbrandonthat is packagekit06:32
persiaLaserJock: Personally, I'd rather force multi-distro documentation on upstream than have a common install method that appears to work everywhere but acts differently in different places, if only to make keyword searches easier.06:33
ScottKWell you either have to have RPM plus some stuff or DEB minus some stuff for that.06:33
persiaimbrandon: That is PackageKit's goal, with which I do not disagree, I just claim that it first requires the definition of common semantics.06:34
imbrandonpersia: how, distrubuitions already provide their own that work perfectly well06:34
persiaIf "Install a package" doesn't mean the same thing, it's really hard for something to manage it properly.06:34
ScottKpersia: Personally, I think to do it correctly first requires someone to discover and commericalize unobtanium.06:35
persiaimbrandon: Right, each with its own semantics, and its own keyword for web searches.06:35
LaserJockpersia: but I can't imagine that it'd be different for a great many apps06:35
imbrandonwtf does web searches have to do with install $package06:35
persiaScottK: No, there are cases of successful collaboration.  Look at freedesktop.org.  It just requires massive effort for lots of people.06:35
ScottKpersia: Yes, but you have to go reinvent the fundamental wheel first.06:35
persiaLaserJock: Pick 20 apps you've worked on recently, and go look at the RPMs.  Even in cases where I'm intimately familiar with the upstream source code, I am sometimes confused trying to pull patches.06:36
LaserJockpersia: but the packaging has nothing to do with it06:36
persiaScottK2: Right.  Define some semantics :)06:36
imbrandonpersia: what does package ormat have to do with it ?06:36
persiaLaserJock: Rather, the packaging has everything to do with it.  Same upstream.06:36
LaserJockif I do a search for epiphany in Synaptic and in yum I can get the right thing06:37
ScottKimbrandon: It's not just format, but content and structure.06:37
persiaimbrandon: ormat?06:37
imbrandonformat06:37
persiaimbrandon: Not much at all.  It is all about the semantics of the set of packages for the environment.06:37
LaserJockI can get the same apps installed on different distros, I just have to learn different tools06:37
imbrandonbut what does an end user care about that, they dont pull patches06:38
persiaOne could likely produce an RPM distro with Debian semantics.06:38
imbrandonthey install software06:38
LaserJocklearning *what* to install is much easier most of the time than *how* to install06:38
persiaRight.  Without common semantics "Install software" doesn't have a common meaning.06:38
imbrandonsure it does06:38
persiaimbrandon: Go read a dictionary.06:38
imbrandonyum install blah, apt-get isntall blah06:38
imbrandonpersia: ???06:39
persiaimbrandon: I agree with almost everything you are saying, but none of it actually works that way without common semantics.  We have a different problem that needs solving first in order for packagekit to do what you describe.06:39
imbrandonwhat the hell does that have to do with me reading a Dictionary ?06:40
imbrandon...06:40
persiahttp://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+semantics&btnG=Search&meta=06:40
imbrandonand ? i know what semantics means, your point ?06:41
persia"semantics" attaches meanings to words.  Without common semantics, "this" means two different things in two different contexts.06:41
LaserJockpersia: but the semantics are very similar06:41
imbrandonand i';m trygin to excplain to you that it dosent except to developers06:41
LaserJockpeople can, in the majority of cases figure it out06:41
persiaSo, when I say "Without common semantics "Install Software" doesn't have a common meaning", it is a tautology.06:41
imbrandonpersia: it does more than you thing06:42
imbrandonthink*06:42
ScottKOn the off chance anyone wants to do actual packaging work tonight, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=disk-manager is looking for a second advocate.06:42
persiaLaserJock: The semantics are similar in the majority cases, but dissimiar in thousands of cases, which tend to be packages that I hear about.06:42
persiaimbrandon: I'm reading the code.  It helps somewhat, but doesn't handle a number of cases well, e.g. (hypothetical) epiphany suggesting epiphant-plugins-extra in one distro, and it being compiled-in in another.06:43
imbrandonScottK: is there a reason this DD isnt uploading to debian first ?06:43
persiaimbrandon: NMU barrier is higher than Ubuntu barrier?06:44
ScottKimbrandon: He wants to become a MOTU, so this is part of his body of Ubuntu work.06:44
imbrandonpersia: as it shouldnt, i dont want it too, infact thats GREAT it dont06:44
ScottKpersia: New package.06:44
imbrandonit SHOULD work diffrently on each distro06:44
persiaScottK: Even more so then :)06:44
imbrandonotherwise why have diffrent ones06:44
ScottKimbrandon: An excellent argument for having different package management tools.06:45
persiaimbrandon: If the tool works differently for each distro, then there is no mapping between user action and berhaviour, which is considered poor form by UI people.06:45
imbrandonpersia: its not a NMU06:45
imbrandonno persia your mapping APP to TOOL, not the same i want the TOOL the same but the APP diffrent06:45
imbrandonScottK: ^06:45
persiaimbrandon: Right.  So users of PackageKit cannot expect a common behaviour from a set of actions within PackageKit.  I consider that a bug.06:46
* ScottK is too tired to parse that06:46
imbrandone.g. its a feature that apt installs epiphany on ubuntu and apt installs epiphany and plugins on SuSE06:46
imbrandonpersia:  NO06:47
imbrandonpersia: the package kit they click INSTALL on both, the APP ends up being diffent, NOT the tool06:47
imbrandonthat is corect06:47
persiaimbrandon: Searching the web for "epiphany packagekit" when I'm on ubuntu in your example might take me to a page that indicates I don't need to do anything extra to get the extras pacakge.  That would be wrong.06:48
ScottKDoes yum/RPM have an equivalent of update-alternatives?06:48
imbrandonpersia: but you dident search for the extras you searched for packagekit06:48
persiaimbrandon: The actions the tool takes as a result of user action are different.  That means that common documentation is useless.06:48
persiaimbrandon: Right, because I'm installing epiphany with packagekit.06:49
imbrandonnot totaly, infact more common than it is now06:49
persiaAnd the web page tells me it automatically includes the extras package, and it doesn't, so I file a bug.06:49
imbrandonpersia: no hte webpage would mention no su=ch thing, as it would be diffrent and known to be diffrent06:49
persiaAnd the bug is rejected, as it's supposed to behave that way, and I'm an unhappy user.06:49
persiaimbrandon: On some random blog?  I doubt it.06:50
ScottKpersia: Do you know if RPM has update-alternatives?06:50
imbrandonsome random blog is wrong now, why woudl that change06:50
LaserJockScottK: I think the alternatives system is a Debianism06:50
persiaScottK: Not offhand, but good point.  I'll look.06:50
ScottKLaserJock: I'm fairly certain it is.06:50
imbrandonScottK: alternaves is debian only06:50
ScottKThis is an example of something that fundamentally RPM doesn't have.06:51
persiaimbrandon: Sure, but the chances that "synaptic epiphany" gets me a random blog that isn't wrong is much higher now.06:51
ScottKHow does a common tool manage this kind of thing.06:51
LaserJockScottK: it has a RPM backend06:51
imbrandonpersia: why would you search for epiphany when you wnt epiphany extras ?06:51
ScottKRight so it's doing RPMish things and DEBish things and they are different.06:52
imbrandonScottK: it dosent and isnt supose to06:52
persiaimbrandon: Because I'm not very experienced, and don't know I want epiphany extras.06:52
LaserJockScottK: right, that's the point06:52
persiaScottK: No.  Guideline is to not share namespace.06:52
imbrandonpersia: then you are likely to be wrong or get wrong info no matter what you do06:52
imbrandonin that case06:52
LaserJockpersia: that's what package descriptions are for, right?06:53
imbrandoneven now06:53
ScottKpersia: It's not just namespace, it's common package functions like www-browser06:53
persiaimbrandon: Why?  I subscribe to a number of RSS feeds.  Frequently the posts include info on an app I want.  This often includes instructions for Fedora & Debian.  I follow the Debian example, and am happy.  I don't want this to change.06:53
imbrandonScottK: and no other distros  have a concept of that and it wouldent change with packagekit nor would packagekit have to maintain that, apt would06:53
persiaScottK: Right.  That's namespace.  Apps are expected to rely on preferred alternatives exclusively.06:53
ScottKOK.06:54
imbrandonpersia: sure but your missing the3 point here, there would still be debian and fedora ways of doing things, but part of that process would now overlap06:54
ScottKWell it's nearly 2AM here, so I need to get to bed.06:54
* persia agrees with imbrandon about alternatives06:54
ScottKGood night all and have a look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=disk-manager06:54
persiaimbrandon: And I'm to trust the blog authors to explain it correctly?  With a common tool, I suspect the likelihood is significantly reduced.06:55
ScottKApt would have to do it, but you'd still have inconsistent results between the two environments.06:55
imbrandonpersia: if you trust them now you would trust them then, you cant have iot both ways06:55
imbrandonScottK: and you have inconsitant results NOW06:55
persiaimbrandon: They do it now because it's significantly different.  If it's substantially the same, I don't see why they'd bother.06:56
imbrandonthat wouldent change and packagekit isnt trying to chage it06:56
ScottKimbrandon: Yes, but I have two obviously differnt tools.  It's not suprising.06:56
persiaRight.  That's the problem I have with packagekit.  if it's going to provide a common tool with a common interface, it should be addressing those issues.06:56
imbrandonpersia: then your putting your faith in the wrong thing, if everyone thought liek that we'd all use windows06:56
imbrandonScottK: its not replaceing apt, you seem to think it is06:57
imbrandonits replaceing synaptic and adept06:57
persiaimbrandon: Why?  By the same guidelines, I expect people to provide different notes for installing on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X.06:57
persia(and they tend to do so)06:57
imbrandon-EPARSE06:58
ScottKimbrandon: I realize that.  It's just that it's a front end for two totally different things trying to look the same.  It's odd.06:58
imbrandonScottK: HOW, thats what i'm getting at06:58
imbrandonits really not, you might think it is at first but i dont06:58
* persia finishes looking at the packagekit code, and is very impressed with the interface and functionality, but laments the lack of specification of semantics.06:58
imbrandonpersia: do distrobutions not provide those? why change them ?06:59
ScottKOf course, OTOH, almost anything would be an improvement over Adept.06:59
persiaimbrandon: So that user action is mapped to result in a predictable way.06:59
imbrandonits kinda like saying there shouldent be an odbc because each DB backend is very very diffrent, odbc still seems to map them all to a common api just fine07:00
LordKowwhat kind of craziness does ubuntu do with the swap partition? because by all accounts mount is not mounting swap.07:00
FujitsuLordKow: swapon -a07:00
FujitsuSwap is never done my mount, is it?07:00
ScottKimbrandon: In my head this is like having an IM client and a mail client with a common front end and expect people to keep it straight.  The both move text and files between people, so who cares.07:00
imbrandonLordKow: mount never mounts swap07:00
Fujitsus/my/by/07:00
LordKowthen how is the swap partition utilized?07:00
FujitsuLordKow: swapon07:00
imbrandonScottK: heh gmail does just that07:00
imbrandon:)07:00
persiaScottK: I've actually seen apps like that.07:00
ScottKYeah and they drive me batty.07:01
ScottKJust because it exists doesn't make it a good idea.07:01
imbrandondosent make them worng either07:01
LordKowwell that methodology breaks a lot of programs that expect to find a swap partition mounted properly... ie s2ram's userspace utility07:01
persiaI also.  I'd have phrased it differently if I'd meant it to be email.07:01
* persia especially dislikes getting email containing "ping"07:02
imbrandonLordKow: no distro "mounts" swap07:02
imbrandonthey all use swapon etc07:02
LordKowhm07:03
LordKowi've never had any trouble using s2ram and gnome's suspend to ram has never worked. i still cant figure out why ubuntu decided s2ram was unneeded.07:04
imbrandonand suspend to "ram" shouldnt be suppend to "disk" aka swap07:05
imbrandon:)07:05
LordKowthe swap thing was a side point, irrelevant.07:05
LordKowsuspending to ram is about as beautiful as ever on gentoo heh. i think gnome-power-manager should have suspend to ram disabled by default. of those who actually have a use for suspend 2 ram im guessing <10% will find it actually works in ubuntu07:07
LordKowi know its a driver issue but thats what s2ram works around by utilizing the comps/laptops ability to reload the video bios itself.07:09
LordKowDec  8 00:25:42 CSC-KDRAKE-002 console-kit-daemon[5667]: WARNING: Unable to activate console: No such device or address  <-- well there is half the problem07:11
ScottKLordKow: In Kubuntu, I've never had it not work.07:11
* ScottK is really going to bed now.07:12
imbrandongnight ScottK07:12
FujitsuNight ScottK.07:12
LordKowthats the point. the only thing worse than a broken suspend feature is a broken suspend feature for some, while for others it works. even worse is that the fix can be any combination of seemingly a million things.07:12
LordKowand that is due to crap video drivers, so.. ubuntu is all about open source so why not use a suspend method that does not rely on the video drivers at all when resuming07:14
lifelessLordKow: I think our success rate for suspend to ram is much better than 10%07:14
lifelessLordKow: certainly it works on all my machines, and thats 5 different hardware configurations on three architectures07:14
lifelessLordKow: finally, broken suspend for all is worse that working suspend for some.07:14
imbrandonlifeless: sparc notebook ? heheh07:15
LordKowlifeless, i think a quick google search would show otherwise. most people dont even need to use suspend so the issue is there for more people than it seems.07:15
LordKow(simply because they use a desktop and have no use for suspend).07:15
stratushttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/CowdancerHowto - Feedback is appreciated! :)07:15
FujitsuDesktop has no use for suspend? I... seee.....07:15
lifelessLordKow: you make a compelling argue with no logical flaws. I'm going to go write some code now.07:15
imbrandondesktop has plenty of uses for it, like power savings07:16
lifelesss/argue/argument/07:16
LordKowif you're a bug fixer you would much rather have it broken for all because if its broken for some.. but not for others.. and yet the configurations are exactly the same (base ubuntu install) then where do you begin?07:16
lifelessLordKow: thats called debugging/diagnosis/software development.07:16
FujitsuBy filing bugs.07:16
LordKowFujitsu, some of these bugs have been open in excess of 2 years now.07:16
LordKowthats horrible.07:17
lifelessLordKow: so get stuck in and help solve them.07:17
LordKowthey've crossed 4+ ubuntu distributions.07:17
LordKowsure, the fix is to use s2ram.07:17
FujitsuLordKow: 4+ Ubuntu releases, you mean?07:17
LordKowyea07:18
imbrandonLordKow: sure if your convinced that is the solution write a compeling spec and present it, complaining in here wont solve a whole lot07:18
persiastratus: Nice.  I'd recommend putting it under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide somewhere (and am still reading)07:18
imbrandonLordKow: but on the other hand a compelling spec can change a whole ot07:19
imbrandons/ot/lot07:19
LordKowwell SuSe is going one way with s2ram while ubuntu is going the other way with gnome-power. why not combine the efforts? effectively double the manpower towards the problem.07:19
LordKowdebian keeps the userland s2ram utils up-to-date so it would take little work on our part07:21
stratuspersia: sure, just wanted to collect some feedback and maybe changes, grammar fixes and all that before add it into a more know document07:21
LordKowkernel.org put s2ram into the kernel starting with 2.6.23 i believe07:21
LordKowmaybe earlier07:21
persiastratus: Is there by any chance a config file that would allow shorthand use of aliases for basepath?  e.g. `sudo cowbuilder --build hello*dsc -- dist hardy`?  Separately, Is there a way to get it to run without sudo?  We don't currently require sudo for pbuilder or sbuild.07:21
persiastratus: No problem :)07:21
stratuspersia: hm, no shortand of aliases for basepath yet but smells like a interesting patch for upstream07:24
stratuspersia: fakeroot should do07:24
persiastratus: Too bad :)  For fakeroot, if that works, it might be worth s/sudo/fakeroot/ where possible.07:25
stratuspersia: I need to check, let it be sudo for a while. :)07:25
persiastratus: OK.  We just generally discourage sudo for packaging, as we see lots of cases of packages installing into /usr during build from new packagers, but it can wait for more testing.07:26
stratuspersia: I see, I'll take a look and update the article don't worry.07:29
stratuspersia: need some sleep now07:29
persiastratus: Thanks for writing it up.  Sleep well.07:29
stratuspersia: np, thanks. see you.07:29
* StevenK complains, whinges and bitches about WoW07:58
* Fujitsu doesn't.07:58
StevenKMost useless group *EVER*07:58
StevenKI missed two quest items the first time I did this instance, so I did it again with another group. And we missed them *AGAIN*07:59
FujitsuYou do things in groups?08:00
StevenKSure.08:00
FujitsuYou need a Kmos in yours.08:00
StevenKThese quest items are in an instance, which you just can't do by yourself.08:00
StevenKNo I don't.08:01
StevenKI need a group which doesn't get wiped in the final room of the instance08:01
StevenK*TWICE* damn it08:01
FujitsuThis must be some usage of the word instance that I wasn't previously aware of.08:02
TreenaksFujitsu: it's a WoW thing08:04
FujitsuThat would explain it.08:04
TreenaksFujitsu: I get to hear stories like this all day at work :)08:04
* StevenK keeps grumbling08:06
StevenKIf I hear the words "It's just a game" I will garrote some one.08:06
* StevenK sighs08:08
TreenaksStevenK: It's just.. well.. you know :)08:09
StevenKKeep talking, I'm sharpening.08:10
StevenKTreenaks: I've just spent about four hours running around Zul'Farrak, and I've missed what I was after, *twice*.08:11
persiaStevenK: How do you sharpen a garotte?08:11
StevenKI didn't say what I was sharpening ...08:11
* persia suspects StevenK of being sneaky, and threatening one method of demise whilst planning quite a different one.08:12
StevenKI admit nothing08:12
lifelessStevenK: dude08:13
lifelessStevenK: what realm ?08:13
StevenKlifeless: Dath'Remar08:14
lifelesshmm, I think I have horde on there08:15
* StevenK is flying his level 49 warlock to the Hinterlands08:15
lifelessStevenK: horde or ally?08:15
StevenKAlliance08:15
lifelessk08:15
lifelessI have ally on Jubei'thos08:15
StevenKI think I need to beg some guild mates for a run through Zul'Farrak. At least they probably won't stuff it up.08:16
lifelesswas it your tank or healer that was fucked? or support ?08:17
StevenKBoth08:17
StevenKThe tank did a bad pull, the healer got smashed and died, and then fell offline, leaving us to deal08:18
lifelessgarh08:18
lifelessfor the healer to get smashed your tank isn't holding aggro08:18
lifelesstanks are one of the easiest things to fuck up, and *everyone* thinks they can tank.08:18
lifeless*thinks*08:19
StevenKWe managed to clean up and then defeat the end-instance boss sans healer08:19
StevenKWhich *sucked*08:19
StevenKI know I can't tank, I just curse and point my minion where they tells me08:20
* StevenK isn't particularly looking forward to doing ZF again08:23
proppypersia: nice edit :)08:42
persiaproppy: Thanks.  The most important part is pointing a the right spec :)08:43
proppypersia: I liked the s/proppy/Alice and Bob/ part too :)08:43
persiaproppy: Always best to write in the third person for this sort of thing: makes it clear you're not just driving a private wishlist.  Just needs two more patches: have anything else planned today?08:44
proppypersia: I agree your comments on Outstanding Issues08:45
proppypersia: I think 'Disable advocation checkbox when level is Contributor:' is already granted by the current code isn't it ?08:46
persiaproppy: Excellent.  The other point I wasn't sure about was the Contributor comment not counting as rejection.  Do you think that it should?08:46
proppypersia: I think it don't, I wasn't aware that all the comments that are not advocating08:47
proppypersia: are considered as rejection, what about your own comments ?08:47
proppypersia: I think they just need to be considered as comments of the uploaders from a REVU code pov08:48
persiaproppy: Any comments except one's own are currently counted as rejection.  I think Contributor comments should be treated like Packager comments.08:48
proppypersia: agreed :)08:48
persiaproppy: Exactly.  You and I have the same viewpoint08:49
proppypersia: let's try to setup revu.aminche,com then08:49
proppypersia: to test the patch somewhere08:49
persiaproppy: I just wanted to check because of the note that Contributor comments otherwise were to look like MOTU comments.  Might need an update.08:49
persiaproppy: I'm completely unfamiliar with the codebase, and not a python person, so I'll leave the implementation to you, but you might want to poke sistpoty who expressed interest earlier.08:50
proppyIt is felt that there should be no distinction between comments from a contributor and those from MOTUs, just like for any other channels: IRC, LP, etc.08:50
proppyexcept from the 'advocating' 'rejection' part08:50
proppy#ubuntuwire ?08:50
persiaproppy: Exactly.  If a Contributor comment is treated like a Packager comment, that's different than "no distinction".  If we agree, you might want to update the quoted bit :)08:50
persiaproppy: Of general interest to pacakgers & reviewers.  Here is likely a better forum (although I'll be in deep idle soon)08:52
proppy * Contributors are treated like a Packager comment, (no allowed to advocate, no treated as rejection).08:53
proppy * It is felt that there should be no additional distinction between comments from a contributor and those from MOTUs, just like for any other channels: IRC, LP, etc.08:53
persiaproppy: That looks excellent to me.08:55
proppynorsetto was also a great help on this one08:56
proppyi wish i could apt-get install revu :)08:58
* Hobbsee waves10:35
civijahey guys10:35
civijahow can I find out does some package have ubuntu maintainer or is it just synced from debian?10:36
civijai.e. slrnface10:36
Hobbseeapt-cache show slrnface10:36
Hobbseesee what the maintainer says10:36
Kmoscivija: apt-cache show slrnface | grep Version -> if "Version: ... " has "ubuntu" in it, so it isn't synced.10:37
HobbseeKmos: ubuntu-only rebuilds?10:37
Kmosbuild1 ?10:38
Hobbsee(which is why i didn't give that answer)10:38
HobbseeKmos: yeah.  but that will still have a ubuntu maintainer - someone in ubuntu has changed it.10:38
Kmosright10:38
civijaHobbsee: it says Gerfried Fuchs <alfie et debian.org>10:38
civijai was confused with debian email addreess10:39
Hobbseecivija: *nods*10:41
Hobbseeoh, drat.  it has had binary mangling10:41
Hobbseecivija: right, anything with "ubuntu" in the version number, or "build" is not a direct sync10:41
civijaok, tnx10:41
=== pgquiles_ is now known as pgquiles
geserKmos: Hi, have you read the mail about you on the motu-council list?10:55
Kmosgeser: the one dholbach sent ? i'm writing it right now..11:01
geserKmos: yes, he forwarded it to you11:02
Kmosgeser: i'll answer to it this morning.. thanks for remind me11:02
frenchyHi all, I've just tried to `dpkg-buildpackage -S -sa -rfakeroot` but I keep getting a "secret key not available".  Has anyone got a spare moment to help me please?11:11
geserfrenchy: does the Changed-By value in the .changes file match completely with your key id?11:12
frenchygeser: Thanks heaps ... that pointed me in the right direction.  It's not the right one because I accidentally ran `dch` without the `-m` option.  Nice work.11:14
Kmosember_: pt boy :)11:17
frenchygeser: I'm just reading how to set it permanently so I don't make a fool out of myself again.  Well at least not with `dch`.11:19
geserfrenchy: set DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME and dch will use it to constuct the right value for the changelog entries11:20
frenchyTa11:22
=== LongPointyStick is now known as Hobbsee
=== nuu is now known as nu
=== nu is now known as nuu
coolbhaviCan I upload an updated package of an existing package in ubuntu to my ppa?11:55
coolbhaviIf so how?11:55
Kmoscoolbhavi: do you have your ppa configure and you know how to upload to it ?11:56
Kmosi mean, configure in your dput.cf11:56
coolbhaviyes11:56
Kmoscoolbhavi: you know how to use dch -i ? and package ?11:57
Kmosyou can put the version 1.2.3-1~ppa111:57
Kmosfor example11:57
Kmosin the changelog entry11:57
coolbhaviI want to contribute in packaging... I am relatively new to packaging11:57
Kmos!packaging | coolbhavi11:57
ubotucoolbhavi: The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports11:57
knightsHi guys!11:58
knightsWhens the deadline for new apps for Hardy?11:59
knights(new versions)11:59
coolbhaviI have already the source tarballs with me Please help12:00
coolbhaviI have already the source tarballs with me Please help on how to package12:02
coolbhavi?12:02
geserknights: it should be in the archive before FF (FeatureFreeze) which around Feb 14th, 200812:05
knightsThanks geser!12:05
knightsValentines? :)12:06
jonnymindhello.12:06
jonnymindI politely ask for mentoring on the "falcon" package in revu.12:06
=== civija_ is now known as civija
coolbhaviOK I have done the package using debhelper Next?12:16
slicerjonnymind: I'm not a motu, but you might want to use debhelper for the package.12:18
jonnymindhow does it work?12:18
Kmos!packaging | jonnymind12:19
ubotujonnymind: The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports12:19
slicerScroll down to the "Packaging with debhelper" part.12:21
jonnymindThank you. I have read that stuff and I hope I adhere to the requiremnts and that I have fulfilled the procedure up to date.12:21
jonnymindyet the packaging of a programming language seems to be a bit outside the standard procedures indicated in the guides.12:22
slicerActually, that wiki page should be restructured. CDBS > debhelper > from_scratch, yet it's listed in the reverse order.12:23
jonnymindI.e. I have already binary-packaged a .so, a bin and a -dev package, but I don't know how to achieve them from a single source package.12:23
jonnymind(I have an automated script that creates lintian clean binary packages from a compiled source though).12:24
jonnymindBut I need a bit of help in doing this from the source package.12:24
jonnymindAlso, there is a "namespace" issue someone was mentioning.12:25
slicerI dunno :( I'm only familiar with the debhelper'd process.12:25
jonnymindprobably "falcon" is too wide; falconpl may be a more sensible naming for the packge.12:25
slicerfalcon uses cmake?12:27
jonnymindyes12:28
geserFujitsu: do you know if bug #129940 was fixed in the last xpdf upload to -security?12:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 129940 in xpdf "[XPDF] possible buffer overflow and execution of arbitrary code" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12994012:28
jonnymindI have too many reopsitories and I also develop with VCexpress on windows, so using automake would be a nightmare.12:28
slicerjonnymind: I haven't tried, but apparanly you can use CDBS with Cmake, which will result in a 3-line debian/rules and most things figured out auomatically for you.12:29
Fujitsugeser: I'm not quite sure. Do you have a CVE # for that?12:29
jonnymindOh; that's good. Any doc about that?12:29
slicerjonnymind: No.. Actually, it seems I'm mistaken. Some packages add cdbs/cmake support, but it's not in cdbs by default it seems.12:32
geserFujitsu: the CVE id mentioned in the links in that bug is CVE-2007-338712:33
ubotuInteger overflow in the StreamPredictor::StreamPredictor function in xpdf 3.02, as used in (1) poppler before 0.5.91, (2) gpdf before 2.8.2, (3) kpdf, (4) kdegraphics, (5) CUPS, (6) PDFedit, and other products, might allow remote attackers to execute arbitrary code via a crafted PDF file that triggers a stack-based buffer overflow in the StreamPredictor::getNextLine function. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-3387)12:33
jonnymindUhm, quite a mess.12:33
jonnymindHowever,12:33
jonnymindas I have already a single binary package from the source package, splitting it into 3 wouldn't seem too hard.12:33
Fujitsugeser: I have that listed as being unfixed in Dapper, Edgy and Feisty.12:34
jonnymindIt is also pointed out by the guide12:34
jonnymindBut just pointed out.12:34
geserFujitsu: ok, I'll subscribe motu-swat to the bug then12:34
Fujitsugeser: Thanks.12:34
jonnymindhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic says "The second paragraph is for the binary package that will be built from the source. If multiple binary packages are built from the source package, there should be one section for each one."12:36
jonnymindbut then it fails to explain how to direct pbuilder to extract the other ones.12:36
jonnymindI suppose it should be relatively easy.12:36
geserjonnymind: you give pbuilder the .dsc file (i.e. point it to the source package) and if you got everything right it will produce you several debs12:38
jonnymindHow to instruct it what to get?12:38
jonnymindi.e. headers + devel .so,12:38
slicerjonnymind: Just include another binary blurb in the control file. After the 'Package: hello' section, include 'Package: hello-dev' etc.12:38
geserthrough files in debian/12:38
jonnymindyes, but shouldn't I tell pbuilder what subtree or file include in each package?12:39
jonnymindand what about docs/<pname>/copyright?12:39
geserjonnymind: look at some small libraries to see how to do it12:39
jonnymindAh, I can get the source package for them!12:40
jonnymind(how come I didn't think about that? :-)12:40
geserjonnymind: see dh_install, debian/<package>.install tells which file belongs to which package12:40
slicerjonnymind: I strongly recommend you switch to debhelper instead of doing it from scratch. debhelper has a multi-target template which has most things ready for you.12:40
jonnymindslicer: I would happily do it, but my build process requires a nonstandard script (build.sh) to be used.12:41
slicerjonnymind: You can do that with debhelper :)12:41
jonnymindAh, that's interesting.12:41
jonnymindI will dig in that too.12:41
slicerjonnymind: debhelper creates a set of files in debian/ for you, and you can modify debian/rules as you wish.12:41
jonnymindOk, suppose I succeed. How can I update the source package? -- just using dput again?12:42
slicerjonnymind: However, it also correctly sets shlib files, permissions and compression for man pages, init files, ldconfig etc etc.12:42
slicerjonnymind: Yes.12:42
jonnymindGreat. I will try that, thanks.12:42
=== zakame_ is now known as zakame
Ubuletteanyone interested to review Bug 174739 ?12:56
Ubulette Bug 17473912:56
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174739 in seamonkey "[upgrade] seamonkey 1.1.7" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17473912:56
=== bluekuja_ is now known as bluekuja
=== ember_ is now known as ember
frafuHello, I have build a debian package and assumed that the dependencies to run the package would be the same as the build dependencies. Obviously, they are not the same. Could anybody please tell me whether there is a systematic way to get the list of the dependencies needed to run the package?14:12
StevenKfrafu: Put ${shlibs:Depends} into the Depends line only, and have dpkg-shlibdeps sort out the dependancies if it's compiled14:16
frafuStevenK: $ (...) is in the Depends line; but it seems that a user that downloaded the package from my ppa could not use it, because dbus-x11 was missing on his system14:19
persiafrafu: If that isn't sufficient, try running the package in a bare chroot (ubuntu-minimal), and checking for errors.  Add a dependency to stop each error.14:20
StevenKfrafu: They're curly braces, too14:20
limachey, how can i join the ubuntu devel community for hardy?14:21
persialimac: You just did :)14:21
persialimac: More seriously, what would you like to do?14:22
limacWell actually i don't know14:23
slicerAnyone have time to do a review update of http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=mumble ?14:24
limacActually it's pretty boring during the weekends so thought of contributing to ubuntu14:24
persialimac: OK.  Classes of things to do: 1) Fix bugs, 2) update software, 3) package new software.  I recommend working in that order, but it's best to do what interests you.14:24
frafupersia: my package (mousetweaks) needs a gui; would that work with ubuntu-minimal?14:24
limaccool14:25
persiafrafu: Yes, if all the dependencies are correct :)  You'll likely want to use a chroot from which you run X clients back to your local X server.14:25
frafuStevenK: There are indeed curly braces in my debian/control14:26
limacdo I programming experience in this? if yes what?14:26
imbrandonlimac: and if you go for bugs first ( recomended ) grab some "bite-sized" ones from LP and feel free to ask about in herer to help you through the first couple14:26
StevenKfrafu: Fair enough, just checking14:26
limacallright14:26
RainCTlimac: no, but it does help if you have some :)14:26
persialimac: If you have experience in a language, you're encouraged to look at code bugs in that language, but it's certainly not required.14:26
limaccause I only know C++14:26
imbrandonlimac: not really, it helps to be able to understand a given language but not nessesary 100%14:26
persialimac: Do you know how to read a stacktrace and figure out the issue?14:27
limackindof not an expert at it though14:27
imbrandonlimac: alot of "small" bugs are packing issues anyhow, not much wrong with actual code, i'd say ( total guess ) about %60 of the time14:27
limacok14:28
limacso how do I begin14:28
limacwith the packaging and stuff14:28
persialimac: OK.  There's a few hundred bugs that need stacktrace review, but there's also a couple hundred packaging bugs that don't need much coding, and likely around 50 "bitesize" bugs which are a good way to become familiar with our processes.14:28
imbrandondo youhave an area of packages that intrests you, like "games" or "server" or "kde" or something to narrow down your bug hunts ?14:28
imbrandonlimac: ^14:28
limacno experience with kde14:29
limacand explain server14:29
imbrandonyea only an example14:29
frafupersia: I use pbuilder to check whether the mousetweaks builds properly; now I will have to look up how to run mousetweaks from a chroot environment...14:29
limacso do i need to install hardy alpha1 for these14:30
imbrandonlimac: well more the question was do you have an area of prefrence to begin, we dont wanna push you into apache2 bugs if you dont even know what a webserver is and such14:30
persialimac: Best way to begin is to find a bug you can solve.  Then, follow the MOTU/Contributing link Adri2000 gave you as a first pass for the process.14:30
imbrandonlimac: no but a chroot/pbuilder is almost a requirement14:30
imbrandon!pbuilder14:30
ubotupbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto14:30
limacanything is good for me14:30
limacwat exactly does pbiulder do?14:32
limacpbuilder14:32
persialimac: It's one of the two common systems to test-build package candidates to make sure they will build if uploaded to the repository.  There's a link to more explanation on the Contributing page.14:32
imbrandonlimac: ok then if it was me in your shoes i would do the following ( approx in this order ) 1) setup a pbuilder for hardy ( explaind in that link ) 2) grab 1 or 2 "bitesized" tagged bugs in LP to learn how the MOTU workflow goes and then 3) go crazy getting "bigger" bugs from LP14:32
limacok i'll get that installed14:33
limacright now14:33
frafupersia: however, I am still wondering whether it will give me all the dependencies; I am afraid that it will not give me the dependencies to packages that are included in ubuntu-minimal. Or do I get something wrong?14:33
RainCThow can I do something after dh_install got called with cdbs?14:33
persiafrafu: You're exactly correct, but I think we don't support systems that don't have everything in ubuntu-minimal installed, so it shouldn't be an issue (although I may be mistaken)14:33
persiaRainCT: Do you mean post-install, or immediately after the dh_install call?14:34
RainCTpersia: after dh_install14:34
nandHiya! I just got a FTBFS notice of the package I submitted, for the hppa arch (and it was build OK for the others archs). The problem is related to the packaging. What is the recommended way to solve an arch-dependent problem considering that I have no way to test?14:35
imbrandonRainCT: here the bit on cdbs debian/rules overrides , http://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml#id252778714:36
RainCTyes I know14:36
RainCTit says install/foo::, but that doesn't work14:36
persiaRainCT: That's hard.  Are you sure an install/packagename:: rule isn't close enough?14:36
imbrandonRainCT: if thats not finegrained enough you likely wont want to use cdbs ( it gets into black magic past that )14:37
RainCTstuff in install/foo:: is being done before dh_install..14:37
imbrandonbinary-install/foo:: ??14:37
frafupersia: but should the dependencies list theoretically not give all the dependencies, regardless whether they are in ubuntu-minimal or not?14:37
persiaRainCT: You could try binary/foo:: (I don't like internals), or you could play with internals.14:37
imbrandonfrafu: the dep list should list any package that is not "priority: required"14:38
* RainCT is trying with binary-install14:38
StevenKOr "Essential: yes"14:38
frafupersia: Is ubuntu-minimal also a subset of xubuntu and kubuntu?14:38
imbrandonfrafu: yes14:39
persiafrafu: Yes.14:39
LucidFoximbrandon> amarok still doesn't build, even without --with-libkarma14:39
LucidFoxit seems that libkarma is turned on by default, you probably need --without-libkarma: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amarok/2:1.4.7-2ubuntu3/+build/46472814:39
imbrandonLucidFox: ?? shitty, ok let me get a bit more coffee in me and i'll check it out14:39
RainCTimbrandon: binary-install seems to work :)14:39
=== _czessi is now known as Czessi
frafuimbradon: and all the packages in ubuntu-minimal are priority: required?14:40
imbrandonRainCT: great, but if your doing this package from scratch ( e.g. not a update/change from a debian package ) i recomend to use normal debhelper vs cdbs , it will let you be much more finegrained14:40
imbrandonand learn more14:40
imbrandonfrafu: afaik yes, that is the case, StevenK or persia could probably verify this14:41
StevenKI'd need to check14:41
limacsudo pbuilder create <<this takes a lot of time14:41
persiafrafu: You could actually verify yourself with a bit of playing with grep-dctrl14:41
persialimac: Depending on your bandwidth, yes.  You should only have to do it once.14:42
limacyeah14:42
imbrandonlimac: yea but it only needs to be done for each dist you want to build for , e.g. right now probably only hardy in your case14:42
imbrandons/done/done once14:42
limacyup14:43
frafupersia, StevenK, imbrandon: thanks for your explanations and help14:43
imbrandonand if your not super tight on your hdd space i recomend you backup the base.tgz it initial makes, incase later you tant ( sometimes required for large transisitons ) your base tar14:44
imbrandonlimac: ^14:44
StevenK% for i in $(apt-cache show ubuntu-minimal | grep Depends | cut -d\  -f2- | sed 's/ //g' | tr ',' '\n') ; do apt-cache show $i | grep Priority ; done | sort | uniq -c14:44
StevenK     40 Priority: important14:44
StevenK     38 Priority: required14:44
limacok14:44
imbrandoniirc the base.tgz isnt HUGE, but if you only have a 10gb hdd, you might want to think twice about keeping an extra copy :)14:45
StevenKSo, yes, you can expect everything ubuntu-miminal pulls in to be there.14:45
StevenKlimac: Priority: required is "Packages which are necessary for the proper functioning of the system" and Priority: important is "Important programs, including those which one would expect to find on any Unix-like system."14:46
imbrandonStevenK: "bash king" :P14:46
StevenKimbrandon: There is no bashism in that line.14:46
StevenKSo take that back :-P14:46
imbrandons/bash/shell14:46
StevenK:-)14:46
limacok, i think it's almost done14:46
limacnow what? after it's done14:47
* StevenK rewrites the line to be quicker14:48
limac:014:48
StevenKWhich returns a different result. Wierd.14:48
imbrandonlimac: other tools you will likely need close to the begining ( man or apt-cache show <pkg> if you want more info on each one ) are : devscript bzr build-essential patchutils14:48
imbrandondevscripts*14:48
persiabzr?14:48
StevenKHe might need bzr14:48
imbrandonpersia: not long and he will run accross packages that are maintained in bzr, and if packages are changed the "right" thing to do is make a bzr branch published with changes14:49
imbrandonlike mplayer14:49
limacwaht about devscript bzr build-essential patchutils14:49
persiaMaybe.  I got through over 100 uploads before installing bzr.  I think ubuntu-dev-tools is likely more useful for most cases.14:49
limac^imbrandon14:49
persialimac: You want to install those packages.  Likely cdbs as well.14:50
imbrandonlimac: you will likely want those packages installed also, they will help you with fixing bugs14:50
limacok14:50
imbrandonthey are "the basic tols of the trade"14:50
imbrandon:)14:50
imbrandontools*14:50
imbrandonpersia: ahh yes i forgot about ubuntu-dev-tools, new fnagled meta packages :)14:51
imbrandonsomeday i will finish my meta pacakge , one that makes imbrandon-dev-tools imbrandon-base imbrandon-desktop etc etc etc so i dont have to rember this stuff14:52
imbrandonhehe14:52
limaci'll be right back after bkfast14:52
imbrandonpersia: ahh bzr is "recomended" by ubuntu-dev-tools so it will be installed with it14:55
imbrandonwell i think, is recomends installed by default on yet ?14:55
persiaimbrandon: There you go then.14:55
persiaimbrandon: Depends on the tool still.14:55
imbrandonahh, /me sticks to apt-get , i'm assuming its on in aptitude14:55
imbrandontime to make more coffee , brb14:57
imbrandonpersia / StevenK : i thought binary things ( images / gzip'd tar's etc ) were not allowed in debian/ unless they were uu encoded15:22
persiaimbrandon: Except in native packages (and they shouldn't be in debian/ in that case), that's true.15:22
StevenKThey are allowed, it's just that dpkg-source may hate you if they change.15:22
imbrandonlooking at some cdbs doc's quote "The system can handle compressed patch with additional '.gz' or '.bz2' suffix and uu-encoded patches with additional '.uu' suffix."15:22
imbrandontalking aobut simple-patchsys15:23
persiaStevenK: In non-native?  How do you get them there?  diff.gz can't put them, no?15:23
StevenKpersia: Exactly, which is why dpkg-source will hate you.15:23
persiaStevenK: "...if they change"?15:23
imbrandonhrm heh ok whats the point of supporting gzip patches then ? heh15:23
StevenKpersia: Well, even if they don't, point.15:23
persiaimbrandon: Dreaming of using xdiff or the like instead of diff likely.  Demonstration of programming skills.15:24
imbrandonheh ok15:24
gesergpocentek: any reason to not subscribe ubuntu-archive to bug #173220?15:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 173220 in xapian-core "Sync request: xapian-core 1.0.4-1 from debian unstable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17322015:28
gpocentekgeser: I just forgot...15:28
gesergpocentek: u-a is subscribed now15:29
gpocentekgeser: thanks a lot15:29
limacallright then how can i get that package imbrando?15:52
imbrandonlimac: what package ?15:53
imbrandoni'm sorry not sure exactly where we left off15:53
limaclimac: other tools you will likely need close to the begining ( man or apt-cache show <pkg> if you want more info on each one ) are : devscript bzr build-essential patchutils15:54
limacthat one^15:54
imbrandonLucidFox: amaork fix uploaded, thanks for the headsup15:54
crimsunuse a package manager15:54
crimsune.g., aptitude, adept, synaptic, ...15:54
limacdumb me!15:54
imbrandonlimac: ahh "sudo apt-get install devscripts bzr build-essential patchutils ubuntu-dev-tools"15:55
imbrandonor as crimsun and pkg mgr :)15:55
limacok thanx15:55
imbrandons/and/any15:55
limacwhats crimsun15:55
imbrandoncrimsun is a person :)15:56
imbrandonscroll up 3 or 4 lines :)15:56
limacah!15:56
imbrandonbtw hiya crimsun :)15:57
Hobbseecrimsun: is what you call when your sound breaks15:57
limacsrry crimsun, didn't really pay attention to ur nick!15:57
limacwat after that is done?15:57
imbrandonok so you have pbuilder installed and those i just named correct ?15:57
limacyup15:58
imbrandonnow time to look on LP for a "bitesized" bug to fix to get to know the "processes" i sugest doing one or two of those before moving on ...15:58
imbrandonone sec i'll get you a url to search the bitesized bugs15:58
limacwhats LP??????15:59
limacsure take ur time15:59
imbrandonLP == launchpad.net our bug tracker15:59
limacok15:59
limacI do have an account15:59
limaci guess15:59
imbrandonmostl likely but you will need to use it real soon, so you might verify you can log into it while i get you the url16:00
limacallright16:01
imbrandonlimac: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize16:01
imbrandonis the bitsized bugs, i would look through those, and find one that seems fairly trivial as your first fix16:02
imbrandonannounce the bug # in here and i'll walk you through the first one16:02
imbrandons/i'll/we'll ( inviting anyone awake to help me along hehe )16:03
ScottKGood morning all.16:03
imbrandonheya ScottK16:03
ScottKHi there imbrandon.16:03
RainCTHi ScottK16:03
StevenKMorning.16:04
StevenKOh damn16:04
persiaRainCT: You don't happen to be up for some shell scripting, do you?  I've a script that's too fragile for release.16:04
ScottKHello RainCT and StevenK.16:04
* StevenK waves16:04
RainCTpersia: what's it about?16:04
persiaGood day ScottK16:04
persiaRainCT: processing interdiffs: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff16:05
limaci'll b back in a sec16:05
ScottKHello persia.  Thanks for looking at disk-manager.  What lintian version were you using?16:05
persiaScottK: 1.23.36ubuntu116:05
persiaRainCT: Not terribly important: you were nominated as a likely candidate in the MOTU meeting: feel free to decline :)16:06
ScottKpersia: Thanks.  I guess I need to enable backports ;-)16:08
persiaScottK: If you'd be up for chasing bug #164509 whilst you're at it, it would make me extra happy .16:09
ubotuLaunchpad bug 164509 in gutsy-backports "Please backport linda 0.3.26ubuntu2 to gutsy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/16450916:09
imbrandonpersia / ScottK : i got it16:11
ScottKpersia: Does it work on Gutsy?16:11
imbrandon( the backport )16:11
ScottKK16:11
persiaScottK: Yes.  Only change is for the menu tests.16:11
persiaimbrandon: Thanks.  I think you already did sparky for that.16:11
limacallright then, i logged in and there is like a list of bugs what do I do now?16:11
imbrandonpersia: yea i did16:12
persialimac: Pick a bug that's not assigned to someone else, and figure out how to fix it.  Generate a patch, and submit it to the sponsors queue.16:13
RainCTpersia: what would I've to do then?16:17
limachow can i know if the bug is assigned to someone else?16:18
persiaRainCT: Well, it'd be nice to error out and print usage with the wrong arguments.  Some error detection to report what went wrong, if anything did, etc.  Currently it's a scrap script I use, and I don't consider it ready for general use.  If you want to make it generally useful, that'd be great.  If not, no worries.16:18
imbrandonlimac: it has an assigned to field in the bug16:19
imbrandonwhen you click on it16:19
limacwhere is it?16:20
RainCTlimac: next to the status and importance16:20
RainCTif there's a "-" then it isn't assigned to anybody16:21
limacgotcha16:21
limacnow how do I fix it16:21
limacthrough the sftwares I installed16:22
limac?16:22
imbrandonlimac: thats where your problem solving skills are put to use, figure out what the fix is first THEN you can generate a patch16:22
persialimac: That's the tricky bit :)  If you understand, and can reproduce the bug, you've a better chance.16:22
limacsay i figure out how to fix it, what do i do then?16:23
persialimac: Generate a patch.  There's some instructions on the MOTU/Contributing page as to how to make the patch.16:23
limacok can you please give me a link to that page!! thnx16:24
persiahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing16:24
imbrandonyou generate a fixed source pacakge, then debdiff it against an unchanged package, and attach the debdiff file to the bug in question and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors16:24
RainCTlimac: if you haven't already add the line ┬źdeb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hardy main restricted universe multiverse┬╗ to your /etc/apt/sources.list and run "sudo apt-get update". Then you will be able to download the source of the package with "apt-get source <packagename>"16:24
buliohi all16:25
bulioI'm just wondering, can I find a guide on how to create a ubuntu package?16:25
limacthanx RainCT I forgot to do that>>16:25
limachi bulio16:26
imbrandon!packageguide16:26
ubotupackagingguide is The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports16:26
imbrandonbulio: ^^16:26
buliothanks16:26
imbrandonpersia: linda will be done on the next archive run ( unless Hobbsee has the powers to doso now [ Hobbsee #164509 ] )16:28
persiaimbrandon: Thanks.  I'm not in a rush :)16:28
* Hobbsee does not, if it's a sync request16:28
imbrandonHobbsee: backport16:28
persiaHobbsee: backport, but given your current environment, likely not anyway.16:28
Hobbseenope, still can't tehn16:28
imbrandonk, next archive run it is then :)16:28
limacso first i have to be assigned to one of the bugs16:31
limac?16:31
limac:)16:31
limac;)16:31
imbrandonlimac: no, but its best to make sure no one else is ( to not dupe efforts )16:31
limacok  then16:31
limacI did that16:33
limacoops disregard that16:33
imbrandondebuild -S -sd16:36
imbrandonerr16:36
sharmsanyone have a minute to review a very small debdiff for a package that needs to be updated via SRU?16:42
RainCTsharms: URL?16:43
sharmshttp://www.sharms.org/files/ncpfix/ncpfs.debdiff16:43
sharmsthe package compiled is at http://ppa.launchpad.net/sharms/ubuntu16:44
persiasharms: 1) Your changelog & version is odd for an SRU.  2) Why the .po changes?16:45
RainCTsharms: the email is wrong "sharms@ironforge"16:45
sharms.po just was a result of the build script I believe16:45
buliolets say I'm creating a package for firefox316:45
buliohow can I get all the dependencies in my .deb?16:45
RainCTbulio: it's already there, granparadiso16:45
RainCT:P16:45
sharmsbasically just the syslog.h and the uncommenting of the FIND_ISR fix bug #14046416:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 140464 in ncpfs "ncpfs 2.2.6-4 breaks ncpmount" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/14046416:45
bulioRainCT, I know, I want to make my own16:46
RainCTsharms:  you should remove changes from the diff that were added unexpectedly16:46
persiabulio: Take a look at the firefox-3.0 package from hardy.16:46
persiabulio: If you really want to do your own, just use it as an example.16:46
buliothen manually copy the dependencies to my config file?16:46
=== jekil2 is now known as jekil
=== Hobbsee is now known as LongPointyStick
sharmsRainCT, persia : I edited the debdiff, should look more sane now: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/47409/16:50
limacso I have to patch the bug huh? so all bugs should be patched?16:51
persiasharms: Your version should be something like 2.2.6-4ubuntu1.1 (more than gutsy, less than hardy), and the target gutsy-proposed.  On the other hand, unless there's a strong argument otherwise, you probably want to put 2.2.6-4ubuntu2 into hardy first.  Further, I'd use 2 changelog lines.16:52
persialimac: Most bugs require a patch to fix.  If you can fix it without changing the package, that's good too :)16:52
limacok so ALL of 'em don't require to b patched16:53
limac:016:53
limac:)16:53
RainCTlimac: btw, what bug are you working on?16:53
sharmspersia: I have never done that before, when you are saying to use 2 changelog lines does that just mean the next entry up put in something like: ncpfs (2.2.6-4ubuntu2) hardy; urgency=low and below that have ncpfs (2.2.6-4ubuntu1.1) gutsy; urgency=low16:55
limacI'm still looking for the ones that are not yet assingned to anybody16:55
persiasharms: 2 changelog lines being one for the FTBFS and one for the -330 issue.  You'll want two separate debdiffs, one for hardy, and one for gutsy-proposed.  Note that I've yet to have a successful SRU, so I may not be the best person giving advice (but it at least matches the docs).16:56
sharmspersia: ok thanks :)16:57
limacdoes the list of bugs always stay the same or do they refresh every once in a while?17:01
persialimac: It refreshes constantly, based on user input.  On the other hand, the list of bitesize bugs doesn't change very often.17:03
* RainCT has just reported a bitesize bug17:05
limacsweet17:05
RainCT(well, actually I reported two, but one is already taken :P)17:06
oly-could do with a bit of help, finally got my package to build, except the resulting .deb is 2.2k where as the tar.gz file is 21mb17:06
oly-any ideas on what could be the cause ?17:07
RainCToly-: can you upload the source somewhere?17:07
oly-yeah sure have to give me a few secs17:08
persiaoly-: You might also find something informative in the output of dpkg --contents foo.deb17:08
oly-okay uploading, will try that as well persia,17:09
oly-looks like its just not adding any files at all to the deb17:14
* RainCT notices that there's really a lot of demand for bitesize bugs :P17:23
* persia notes that packaging an existing patch is also a great way to help.17:24
RainCTpersia: shouldn't bugs with patches but no debdiff get the bitesize tag, too?17:25
persiaRainCT: No, as the patch may be wrong, or hard to understand.  Those patches need review & testing.  Many may be bitesize, but it's not much harder to debdiff them than to determine if they are.17:26
oly-okay, i have uploaded the files http://ubuntusm.org/files/debian.tar.gz and http://ubuntusm.org/files/usm-core.orig.tar.gz17:26
oly-if anyone wants to take a look, this is my first attempt at packaging so pointers would be useful,17:26
RainCTah17:26
oly-i uploaded the debian folder, i created to build the package along with the source17:27
oly-i am just using dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot to build it17:27
RainCToly-: (next time please upload .orig.tar.gz, diff.gz and the .dsc file and provide the link to the .dsc, as this way it can be downloaded with dget)17:28
oly-oh, right sorry did not realise that :p17:29
oly-i can upload if you like17:29
crimsunyay, down to 10 bugs in PA core.17:30
RainCTno don't worry17:30
oly-i have a load of packages todo, so just want to get to a point where i can make suitable package to get into ubuntu17:31
metusalehHi, I just uploaded my first patch to bug 121068 which corrects several bugs in the sysinfo package following this guide : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix17:32
metusalehThe guide suggested I try to find a developer in this channel to review the patch (as this is my first attempt I think it may be very useful :-) )17:32
metusalehThere is an issue with the close button in the about dialog box that I did not manage to correct (maybe someone with more knowledge of glade could correct this)17:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121068 in sysinfo "sysinfo reports gutsy as lenny/sid" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12106817:32
* RainCT is downloading17:36
oly-yeah, its a bit big, i stripped a oad of files out as well17:37
persiametusaleh: Thanks for working on this.  I'll take a look.17:40
persiametusaleh: That's a nice comprehensive patch.  Thanks,  Would you like to work on integrating it into the distribution, or leave that for someone else?17:43
metusalehpersia: I'd like to include it into the distribution but will need some help17:44
olopezhi17:46
olopezi'm want to lacate where ubutu load kernel modules , is it documented ?17:46
persiametusaleh: The next step is to create a debdiff for the next revision including the patch.  Before doing that, it's worth looking at what other bugs affect the package, just to make sure you've gotten as many as you can (I think you may well have).17:47
crimsunolopez: can you be more specific?17:48
olopezyes17:48
olopezubuntu load some kernel modules that i don't want17:48
persiametusaleh: Then, you'll want to determine which patch system the package is using (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems should help).17:48
crimsunolopez: blacklist them17:49
RainCTmetusaleh:  if you have ubuntu-dev-tools installed, running what-patch on the terminal will tell you17:49
olopezcrimsun: i must put it on /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist , it is the way ?17:50
RainCTolopez: yep17:50
crimsunolopez: I recommend you use another file17:50
metusalehpersia: I looked at all the sysinfo bugs that were reported in ubuntu and corrected all I could (which is most of them except the close button in the about box that does nothing and a possible incorrect cpu freq which I could not reproduce)17:51
metusalehIs there a webpage that explains how to create a debdiff ?17:51
crimsunolopez: e.g., /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-olopez17:51
olopezok thanks crimsun17:51
persiaRainCT: Just as an enhancement, it might be worth checking ../foo.diff.gz with lsdiff -z to see if there are changes outside debian/ for the raw patch system.17:51
persiametusaleh:17:51
crimsunolopez: note the syntax in the other blacklist files, too.17:51
persiametusaleh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing might be helpful for that.17:51
persiaSee section 217:52
persiaErr. 3.217:52
olopezif i black list a module , dependences are also blacklisted ?17:52
crimsunolopez: no.17:52
olopezok i need blacklist module by module , thanks for the information i don't see it in any place17:53
persiametusaleh: Essentially, you'll want to download the latest version in hardy, apply your patch, update the changelog, build, test, and run the debdiff command.17:54
metusalehpersia: thanks, I'll give that a go17:56
persiametusaleh: I've assigned you the bug (assuming that was your patch), so people know you are working on it.  Good luck, and ask here if you have any questions.17:56
RainCTpersia: I filed a bug on u-d-t about that17:56
persiaRainCT: You agree that's sensible then?  I wasn't sure.  Thanks.17:57
RainCTpersia: I don't know lsdiff, but if it just tells if there are changes outside debian/ or not then I agree that I'd be good to add the check17:58
persiaRainCT: It just lists all the files changed in a diff.  It's a useful tool, even if not integrated: you can find it in pathutils.17:58
persiaErr.  patchutils.17:58
RainCTah, I see17:59
cbx33yo yo yo everybody17:59
RainCThey cbx3317:59
metusalehpersia: thanks, I've set the other sysinfo bugs that should also be corrected to "In Progress"17:59
metusalehbye18:00
persiametusaleh: Great.  You've also assigned yourself?18:00
RainCTpersia: ah I see. a "There are files modified outside debian/" notice would be good, I think18:00
metusalehpersia: yes, I assigned myself18:00
persiaRainCT: I agree.  I really don't like packages that have changes in debian/patches/ and changes in the diff.gz directly.  One or the other, but both is just confusing.18:02
lynxhi ubuntu masters...18:05
limachello18:06
limaccan't find any bugs I am comfortable with18:07
lynxmy problem: I 've nokia n73 mobile, i want to use it as USB Modem in my ubuntu os, but i dont know how to do for that, if u have any idea then plz tell me that how to do that..(use USB Modem)18:07
Nafallolimac: find one you are not and get rid of it then? that should make you feel better ;-)18:07
persialynx: This really isn't a support channel.  You will likely have better luck in #ubuntu.18:08
Nafallolynx: re-direct to #ubuntu please. this isn't a support channel.18:08
olopezcrimsun: hi again18:08
crimsunolopez: hi.18:08
lynxthen plz which s teat support channel that give me this question answer provide link for that18:08
persialimac: Hmm.  That's harder then.  You might consider joining the bugsquad, and watching the bug traffic in #ubuntu-bugs, so you can be the first to grab the next easy one that gets reported.18:08
olopezi blacklisted some modules joydev , apparmor and commoncap18:09
olopezbut i restart the computer and i do a lsmod and apparmor and commoncap are still there18:10
olopezhave you any idea ?18:11
limacok but I am waiting for new ones. and how exactly can i be a prospective developer?18:11
Nafallolynx: #ubuntu18:12
limacwhat to do to become a prospective developer?18:13
oly-RainCT, managed to download  it yet ? or is it being super slow18:16
imbrandonlimac: just by "wanting to" e.g. you already have staring today by comming here18:16
imbrandonstarting*18:16
cbx33limac, learn, listen, try, help18:16
RainCToly-: ah yes, got it18:16
RainCTlet's see18:17
oly-cool, probably something silly im doing :p18:17
RainCToly-:I think stuff in /etc/usm should be in /usr/share/usm18:18
RainCToly-: changelog says "new upstream release" but it's the first one listed there18:18
oly-why do you say that ? /etc/usm is the main program folder18:19
RainCToly-:etc is for configuration files18:19
RainCToly-: you don't need uploaders: in debian/control if you are already the maintainer18:20
oly-okay, will move it to /usr/share/usm18:20
RainCTlatest standards version is 3.7.3 afaik18:20
RainCTXS-Vcs-Bzr should just be Vcs-Bzr now18:20
RainCTand it's the repository for the package and now upstream's18:21
RainCT"Upstream Author(s)"     remove the (s) or lintian will complain18:21
limacwhat are some ugs u guys are working on?18:22
limacbugs18:22
RainCT(I would indicate https://launchpad.net/usm/+downloads but this doesn't really make a difference)18:22
oly-okay, any ideas as to what woudl cause the files ending up in the deb though ?18:22
oly-i am fixing the other bits now18:22
RainCTI'm not sure but it seems to me that the stuff in postinst should rather be indebian/ rules18:24
RainCTand about the rules files, I can't say anything because I use cdbs always :P18:24
oly-okay, well i was using dpkg -b packagename to make my packages till i was told not to :p18:25
limacon what types of bugs do u need to apply the patch to/18:28
oly-is it likely to be the rules file, stopping my files ending up in the final deb ?18:29
oly-made all the other changes except the postinst, that will require more research into the rules files18:30
oly-at the moment though i want to just get a package built with all the files included so i can try it and make sure it works,18:31
RainCT#$(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/usm-core install18:32
RainCTthe make is commented, might it be because of this?18:33
RainCToly- ^18:33
oly-could be :)18:33
oly-although uncommenting seems to have made no change :/18:36
oly-is it most likely to be something in the rules file ?18:36
RainCTindeed18:37
limachow can I patch a bug?18:39
RainCTlimac: what bug is it?18:40
Flare183!patch | limac18:40
ubotulimac: Patches are files describing the changes in code to achieve some results.  There are a number of ways these can be produced, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems may provide some useful guidelines.18:40
limacoh I am just curious18:40
limacdisregard that sr18:40
limacthx ubotu18:42
RainCTubotu is a bot :P18:42
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about is a bot :p - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi18:42
limaclike a robot!:)18:43
limac:)18:43
RainCTheh18:43
oly-thxs for all the help you have given RainCT,18:52
oly-going to look into my rules file and see what i can figure out18:52
RainCToly-: you're welcome :)18:52
RainCTok, good luck18:53
limacdumb question but what do u need to no to fix bugs!18:54
limacis it basically like how we interacted in the forums or is it different?18:54
jpatricklimac: prehaps https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs might help you?18:56
limacthx jpatrick!!!!!18:56
buliohow do I read an ecrypted PGP message?19:30
bulioI have my key and all but I can't see the messagwe19:30
Nafallobulio: decrypt it19:32
sistpotyhi folks19:32
bulioNafallo, how?19:32
bulioI type gpg, then paste my message19:32
bulioI enter my passkey19:33
buliobut I can't see the msg19:33
Nafallobulio: why encrypt it again? :-)19:33
buliohow do I decrypt it then?19:33
buliohow do I decrypt it then?19:33
Nafalloor hmm. maybe it does not.19:34
bulioI can see the start of the message19:34
geserbulio: was it encrypted to you?19:34
buliobut how do I scroll it down in terminal19:34
buliogeser, yes, from Ubuntu PPA19:34
Nafalloso it IS decrypted then :-)19:34
bulioNafallo, but all i can see is the header19:35
geserencrypted mails from PPA?19:35
bulioyeah19:35
gesersince when is PPA sending encrypted mails?19:36
bulioto enable PPA for the first time19:37
geserah19:37
geserwhat error do you get from gpg?19:37
bulionone19:37
bulioI paste my pgp message19:38
buliobut all I see is:19:38
geseryou can also put the encrypted text (including the ------ lines) into a file and use gpg --decrypt on it19:38
buliohttp://rafb.net/p/6cSlXH51.html19:39
Nafallobulio: you need a passphrase :-)19:39
buliothat worked geser19:39
buliothanks!19:39
buliohow do I build firefox 3 with the PPA?19:43
sistpoty!pastebin | sistpoty19:48
bulio!ppa bulio19:50
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about ppa bulio - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi19:50
sistpotyanyone who'd like to proofread the meeting minutes? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/47433/19:50
gesersistpoty: only a minor correction: use 2007-12-21 for the date of the next meeting, I don't know how many people are used to parse 12/21 correctly. It took me some time during the meeting to parse it as a date.20:00
sistpotygeser: ok, thanks20:00
buliohow do I build firefox 3 with the PPA?20:01
sistpotyand sent20:01
geserbulio: have you a source package for it already?20:02
bulioI have the nightly tarball20:03
ScottKgeser: Thanks for your mail on the MC list.20:03
=== superm1_ is now known as superm1
geserbulio: then you are missing the packaging bits20:03
buliowhich bits?20:04
geserbulio: the debian/ dir or is it included in the nightly tarball?20:07
buliowhich bits?20:07
buliooops20:07
buliono20:07
buliook I downloaded firefox source20:12
bulionow what?20:12
Jazzvabulio: Maybe you could go through FF2/3 source packages to see how they are built. AFAIK, building Mozilla packages is not a trivial thing :).20:16
bulioJazzva, but I want to make a .deb, which I can place in a repo for people to download20:16
Jazzvabulio: You can get source packages by issuing "sudo apt-get source package-name", where "package-name" is "firefox" for FF2 and "firefox-3.0" for FF320:16
sistpoty*whistle*20:18
* Nafallo puts one of those party things in sistpoty 20:19
sistpotyparty things?20:19
* sistpoty is just having fun with revu-production *g*20:19
Nafalloyepp. those who sound awful ;-)20:19
Jazzvabulio: You still need to make rules file which will do all the stuff... Anyway, there is firefox 3 package in repositories (alpha 8 for Gutsy and beta 1 for Hardy, if I remember correctly). Also, you can get the latest from Ubulette's PPA.20:20
bulioJazzva, well I need to guide to do it on my own20:21
bulioI'm interested in building my own Firefox-3 from the latest nightlies20:21
ScottKbulio: Then build it locally and use it.  No need to tie up the PPA buildd's for that.20:23
bulioScottK, its for a distro based off Ubuntu20:23
Jazzvabulio: Good luck :). I think that taking a look at rules file from firefox package from repos would be helpful.20:23
bluefoxicyis there a discussion on why vmware-server was pulled from ubuntu20:24
ScottKbluefoxicy: It wasn't20:24
bluefoxicyScottK:  from partners?20:24
ScottKI think they just pulled openssl097.  Isn't vmware-server still there?20:24
bluefoxicyScottK:  it used to be in commercial, which became partners20:24
bluefoxicypartners only has opera though last I looked20:24
ScottKIt was recently uploaded to partners20:25
UbuletteJazzva, fyi, I've pushed b1 for gutsy to my ppa a while ago too. i'm working on b2 right now20:25
bluefoxicyScottK:  ah, ok, so they've added stuff since last month20:25
ScottKbluefoxicy: Friday 30 November 200720:25
bluefoxicyah thanks20:25
ScottKIs when it was added.20:25
JazzvaUbulette: Yeah, I've seen it :). Tried to install it from deb in Gutsy, got tied up in dependencies, settled for a8 :).20:26
Ubulette?20:26
Ubulettenss/nspr ?20:26
JazzvaYep, I think...20:26
bluefoxicyScottK:  thanks20:26
bluefoxicyScottK:  someone should maintain an rss feed that tells you when new stuff is added <_<20:26
ScottKbluefoxicy: No problem.  There is one.  That's how I found out.20:27
bluefoxicyScottK:  oh, where?20:27
UbuletteJazzva, everything was in my ppa. did you grab the debs manually or did you use it as a repo ?20:27
ScottKbluefoxicy: It's the standard gutsy-changes RSS.20:27
ScottKLet me lookl20:27
Jazzvamanually...20:27
bluefoxicyScottK:  ah, there's rss feeds for changes  O_O  I didn't know that!  :D20:28
JazzvaI'll try it later again :)...20:28
JazzvaUbulette ^^20:28
ScottKbluefoxicy: http://media.ubuntu-nl.org/rss/gutsy.xml20:28
bluefoxicyubuntu-nl  ??20:29
ScottKYes.  Seveas20:29
bluefoxicyah ok :)20:29
bluefoxicythat explains a lot20:29
SeveasScottK, those feeds might actually move to ubuntuwire soon20:30
Seveasneed to talk to imbrandon about that :)20:30
ScottKSeveas: OK.  Please warn us before you move them.20:30
Seveasthe current feeds will be replaces with a feed with one post containing the info :)20:31
bluefoxicyThe ethernet device "eth0" was not detected on your system.  Available ethernet devices detected on your system include ath0, eth1.  Are you sure you want to use this device? (yes/no) [no]20:33
bluefoxicyInvalid default answer!20:33
* bluefoxicy hacks up the install script.20:33
bluefoxicybah I had to edit vmware-config-network.pl20:38
ScottKbluefoxicy: This probably isn't the best channel for whining about proprietary software.  ;-)20:39
bluefoxicyheh20:42
ScottKimbrandon: When you approve a backport you're supposed to set it to In Progress (I just did that for Linda).20:42
_polto_hello20:46
_polto_how can i build a source package to be compiled on PPA if the source tar does not have central ./configure or Makefile ? the sources are normally build truth ./install-cris-tools and i should respond (by default) to all questions ...20:46
bluefoxicyScottK:  where the hell do I go to figure out why this is broke20:51
bluefoxicy   Bridged networking on /dev/vmnet0                                  failed20:51
ScottKbluefoxicy: The people that support vmware.20:52
* ScottK really has no idea.20:52
bluefoxicyk20:54
bluefoxicyScottK:  vmware's support model is basically there's nowhere to contact them on the site last i looked ;p20:54
bluefoxicyaside from sales20:54
ScottKThat sounds intentional.20:55
bluefoxicy(I hate commercial software)20:55
ScottKThen don't use it.  '-)20:55
bluefoxicyScottK:  they're totally disinterested unless you pay $1000 for esx ;p20:55
ScottKA Canonical support contract is cheaper than that ...20:56
RainCT_polto_: if install-cris-tools has a way to don't let it ask questions and to tell it to install stuff in debian/<package name>, then call it in debian/rules. if not, you can either patch it, or do the same yourself20:56
bluefoxicyScottK:  well it's $1000 for ESX, and then you can get a premium support package or smth on top of it20:56
bluefoxicyScottK:  ubuntu forums is cheaper than that20:56
ScottKWell sometimes you get what you pay for.20:57
ScottKYou might ask zul.20:57
RainCTbluefoxicy: why not use virtualbox?20:57
_polto_RainCT, thanks20:57
sistpotyok, gotta go... cya20:57
RainCT_polto_: yw :)20:57
bluefoxicyRainCT:  because virtualbox is impossible to get non-nat networking working20:58
bluefoxicyI tried20:58
RainCTah20:58
bluefoxicyI wrote scripts and screwed with bridged networking and in the end it disabled my wireless and I had to uninstall brctl and reboot20:58
bluefoxicyheh vmware just doesn't work with wifi21:00
UbuletteI still need a sponsor for Bug 174739. It contains 3 security fixes.21:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174739 in seamonkey "[upgrade] seamonkey 1.1.7" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17473921:02
bobboHi, ive built a package with some bug fixes for showfsck but im totally stuck on getting it included. How do i go about this?21:14
pochubobbo: uploading to REVU is a good idea21:18
pochu!revu | bobbo21:18
ubotubobbo: REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU21:18
pochubobbo: another option is to post the debdiff in the launchpad bugs and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors21:19
bobboCan a REVU admin sync my key into the REVU keyring?21:20
pochusiretart, imbrandon, LongPointyStick ^21:21
pochubobbo: I assume you are in ~ubuntu-universe-contributors and have your key in your launchpad profile, right?21:22
bobboyes just signed up to ~ubuntu-universe-contributors, they key is just the key you use to sign the code of conduct right?21:22
pochuyep21:23
bobbopochu, guessing im waiting til the cron sync tonight then?21:30
pochubobbo: I think an admin needs to run it manually21:31
pochui.e. there's no cron for it21:31
Ubulettethere's no more cron for that21:31
bobboall night IRC camp :D21:31
pochuhey Ubulette21:31
johnny_hi, how do you build an ubuntu package?21:54
johnny_i have built a package, but it seems to be debian style21:55
johnny_am i missing an option?21:55
ScottKjohnny_: That's the type of packaging that Ubuntu uses.21:58
johnny_ldm depends on libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.18.3); however:21:58
johnny_  Version of libpango1.0-0 on system is 1.18.2-0ubuntu1.21:58
johnny_oops.. that's a bad difference21:59
johnny_lemme try to get my old output21:59
ScottKjohnny_: I think you need to ask a more specific question.21:59
RainCTis there any doc on bash completion?21:59
ScottKRainCT: You are remembering that Dash is the default shell in Ubuntu, right?22:00
* RainCT would like to add tab autocompletion to some scripts, like desktop-file-validate and pbuilder-dist..22:00
ScottKRight, but don't assume Bash.22:01
RainCTScottK: why is it reading ~/.bashrc then?22:01
ScottKDunno.22:02
pwnguinis dash the default shell for users?22:03
pwnguini thought bash still was22:04
ScottKCould be.22:04
* ScottK is not an expert and all the systems I have handy were upgraded from earlier releases.22:04
pwnguinits just the scripts that say #!/bin/sh that expect bash that get hosed22:04
* RainCT known autocompletion works by adding a file in /etc/bash_completion.d/, but can't find any documentation about it's syntax..22:05
Ubulettebash is still the default for users but sh is a link to dash22:05
RainCTah22:06
Ubulettedid you read /usr/share/doc/bash/README.bash_completion.gz ?22:08
Ubulettethere are also tons of examples in /usr/share/doc/bash/completion-contrib/22:10
Ubuletteyou just need to be fluent in shell ;)22:10
RainCTdoesn't really help much.. but thanks :)22:13
Ubulettejust take one as a starting point and modify it. that's the easiest way22:16
ScottKAre we on Standards version 3.7.3 like Debian is now?22:24
cdm10I'm learning to write Python programs, and I'd like to learn how to package them for Ubuntu. What's the best way to go about learning this?22:27
pochuScottK: yes, although lintian needs to be merged/synced22:28
ScottKcdm10: Are you learning to use Python distutils as part of your learning to use Python?22:28
ScottKpochu: Thanks.22:28
cdm10ScottK: No, I'm not sure what that is or how to use it. I just have a gtk/glade app that I'd like to learn how to put into an Ubuntu package.22:29
ScottKcdm10: OK.  In general packaging stuff done in Python is very easy if you have a distutils setup.py.  I'd suggest you look into that first.22:30
cdm10ScottK: okay. Any resources for learning that?22:31
ScottKcdm10: You can find it in the Python docs on python.org.22:31
cdm10alright.22:31
ScottKcdm10: You can also look at python packages for examples.  apt-get source pypolicyd-spf will give you one example.22:31
cdm10ScottK: unable to find source pkg for that22:34
cdm10ScottK: that's ok, I tried alacarte and that worked22:34
ScottKOK22:35
ScottKcdm10: What release are you running?22:35
Amaranthalacarte doesn't use distutils22:35
RainCTgreat, got autocompletion for desktop-file-validate working :)22:37
AmaranthAh, RainCT, that reminds me :)22:38
AmaranthThe policy of marking bugs in launchpad as medium importance just to get them off the list of untouched bugs is really annoying22:38
RainCTheh22:39
Amaranthyou seemed to have been the one that touched bugs i get mail for :)22:39
Amaranthfor compiz we actually _use_ the importance so getting a bunch of medium bugs disrupts things22:39
cdm10ScottK: Gutsy22:40
RainCTAmaranth: well.. I'll leave those then. sorry22:41
ScottKcdm10: I imagine you don't have source packages for Universe enabled then.22:41
cdm10ScottK: that's possible, hold on22:42
Amaranthall the other things are fine but changing the importance puts a whole bunch of bugs on the "need to look at for next release" list22:42
Amaranthdupe checking and such is appreciated though :)22:42
ScottKAnyone running Gnome have a moment to check something for me?22:42
cdm10ScottK: sure22:42
AmaranthScottK: What do you need?22:42
* Fujitsu also flies in.22:43
ScottKcdm10: (since you volunteered first) please open a python shell22:43
cdm10ScottK: done22:43
ScottKdo 'import os'22:43
cdm10yep22:43
ScottKthen 'print os.environ'22:43
frenchyHi persia.22:43
cdm10ScottK: should i pastebin that?22:44
ScottKcdm10: Yes please.22:44
Amaranthare you looking for a particular variable?22:44
ScottKAmaranth: XAUTHORITY22:44
cdm10/home/caleb/.Xauthority22:44
Amaranth/home/travis/.Xauthority22:44
ScottKMy Kubuntu doesn't have it set and I'm not sure if it's reasonable to expect it.22:45
frenchyJust a quick question, what lintian command are you running that generates the warnings for the manual page for me-tv?22:45
AmaranthI thought gdm set that22:45
cdm10Amaranth: and Kubuntu uses KDM... perhaps it behaves differently.22:45
Amaranthright22:45
Amaranthkdm should die :P22:45
ScottKRight.  Gotta run for dinner.  Back in a bit.22:45
* Fujitsu watches ScottK vaporise Amaranth,22:46
ScottKAmaranth: Some of us feel that way about GDM.22:46
ScottKFujitsu: It's dinnertime and vaporizing takes more time than I have right now.22:46
AmaranthI was under the impression that this is one area where most people were in agreement that gdm was better :P22:46
FujitsuLaserRock!22:48
LaserJockhi Fujitsu22:55
_16aR__Hello23:34
_16aR__I've got a question about env variables into packages/lib23:35
_16aR__I'm packaging some lib which needs env var to be set to run ok23:35
_16aR__but as I read the debian policy, it shouldn't23:35
_16aR__So I'm wondering what to do : modify the source to add the base path where to search at the end of the GetBlaBlaRootPath() ?23:36
_16aR__and where must I put the base directory which the env var reference ?23:37
_16aR__/usr/share/packagename/ ?23:37
geser_16aR__: what about a wrapper that sets the env variables and starts then the real programm?23:38
T70K5I try to boot my machine and I get Grub error 1723:38
bobboT70K5, #ubuntu for support, this is packaging23:39
T70K5oh ok, sorry23:39
_16aR__geser: it is not a program but libraries23:41
_16aR__geser: I've thought of it, but then I became aware that it wouldn't be useful since I have no executables :p23:42
_16aR__geser: Or maybe miss I something ?23:42
ScottKFujitsu: Since cdm10 didn't pastebin his 'print os.environ' would you please?23:48
FujitsuScottK: Sure.23:48
ScottKFujitsu: Thanks.23:48
LaserJockhi ScottK23:49
ScottKHi LaserJock23:49
FujitsuScottK: Want it formatted in any particular way, or just a raw Python representation?23:50
minghua_16aR__: Which env variable does this library needs exactly?23:50
ScottKFujitsu: Raw is fine.  Whatever's easiest23:50
geser_16aR__: does the env vars have a sensible default value that would be used by all packages using that lib and could be patched in?23:50
minghua_16aR__: And I can't think of any other way to "use" a library other than linking to it...23:50
FujitsuScottK: Well, it didn't pastebin well, but you can at least see it:23:52
Fujitsuhttp://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/47478/23:52
ScottKFujitsu: Thanks.23:52
ScottKFujitsu: I see you've got XAUTHORITY': '/home/william/.Xauthority', so it looks like I have to work around that for KDM.  That's what I needed to see.23:54
FujitsuScottK: Or move everybody to GDM. I'll hide now.23:58
_16aR__minghua: DELTA_ROOT and DELTA_DATA23:58
_16aR__minghua: in the same way of the openscenegraph libs uses OSG_ROOT and OSG_DATA23:58
ScottKFujitsu: I'd be more likely to remove the code that uses XAUTHORITY.  The program already has to be root, so I think there's little point in the additional check.23:58

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