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michalskiis this working? im not sure somebody say something....15:04
zulyes it is15:04
michalskiok thanks15:05
zul@schedule montreal15:26
ubotuSchedule for America/Montreal: 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development15:26
michalski@schedule halifax15:42
ubotuSchedule for America/Halifax: 12 Dec 19:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 11:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development15:42
nealmcbserver team meeting here in 15 minutes....15:43
michalskican i sit in?15:52
michalskiim not part of it15:52
sommermichalski: open to all15:52
michalskiok thanks15:53
dendrobatesHey everyone15:59
MootBotMeeting started at 16:00. The chair is dendrobates.16:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:00
sorenHi, guys.16:00
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dendrobates[TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.16:02
dendrobatesaction 1: mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmap with the specs for hardy16:03
dendrobatesmathiaz is on holiday.16:03
dendrobatesI haven't checked to see if this was done.   Does anyone know offhand?16:04
sorenSorry, no.16:04
dendrobatesI just checked as well.16:04
dendrobatesaction 2: nijaba will check the minimun requirement for an installation of ubuntu-server16:05
sommerthat was done and the installation and introduction sections of the serverguide are updated.16:06
sorenCool. What was the result?16:06
sommer128M memory and a 1G hd space... on x86, amd64, and Sparc16:06
* nijaba is late... sorry16:06
dendrobatesaction 3:    sommer will add an item about writing a wiki page to install a minimal GUI on the server16:06
sommerthere's an item on the road map, but I don't think the actual article has been started yet.16:07
dendrobatesdo you really need 1GB of HD space?16:07
sommerdendrobates: I wouldn't install with less... need space for log files and such16:07
nijabadendrobates: it all depends on what you want to do...16:08
sommerI guess technically ~600M would work16:08
sommerbut you probably won't be happy for long16:08
nealmcbsyslog remotely....16:08
sorenI would have guessed half of that.16:08
dendrobatesI supose it doesn't hurt to go 1GB.16:09
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sorenMinimal requirements are not about being happy. They're about minimal requirements.16:09
nealmcbunless we're trying to attract the largest segment - smaller and smaller servers16:09
nealmcbala jeos (which is different, but some similar motivations)16:09
dendrobatessoren: it depends how it is presented.  I have seen recommended miniumum system requirements.16:10
sorenIf the installation requires 300MB to actually be installable, those are the minimal requirements. If people want to have space for data, they should add that to the 300 MB.16:10
nealmcbthere are so many different kinds of servers16:10
dendrobatesWhat are we trying to accomplish with this information?16:10
nijabadendrobates: Give a reasonable sense, to newcomer, of what a server install might require16:11
sorendendrobates: I think that's silly. We're trying to establish minimal requirements, not "minimal requirements leaving space for 600 MB of data".16:11
nijabanot tell people how little space we can tweak it to fit in with16:11
nealmcbso we could talk about firewall servers, web servers, mail servers etc16:11
nijabanealmcb: agreed16:12
nealmcbI suggest linking to the existing text and letting people propose updates16:12
sorenThe only number that objectively makes sense is the size of a standard install. We have no way of knowing how much data a user will want to have on his server.16:12
zulcant we have minimum and suggested size?16:13
doluusoren: agreed16:13
dendrobatesHowever if var fills up on the second reboot, that is not a usable system.16:13
sorenWill everyone be happy if we don't say "The minimal requiremenst are X MB", but instead "A default installation of UBuntu Server only takes up X MB"?16:13
nijabasoren: does it really matter whether we say 600M or 1G?  Even flash rives are bigger than this nowdays!16:13
doluumaybe we should include info on that16:13
sorenThat's as unambiguous as it gets.16:13
doluuor recommendations16:13
nijabasoren: ok for your rewording16:14
jdstrandsoren: +1 on soren phrasing16:14
sommerworks for me, currenlty the specs are listed in a table16:15
sommerI guess change "Hard Drive Space" to "Hard Drive Space Used"?16:15
sorenIf that's what the data actually is, then yes.16:15
sorenIf it's recommended sizes, I call bogus on them.16:15
doluunowdays every administrator nows that they must have something bigger than recommended16:15
mralphabetperhaps with a "*This does not include any extra packages, logs, or data that accumulate"16:16
sorenIf the install takes 500 MB and we say "1GB is required", we're somehow implying that a usual amount of data to have on a system is 500 MB. That's nonsense.16:16
michalskiwhat if we made several tables saying how much we recommend and how much you need on the different types of installs16:16
michalskiftp, http ect16:16
nijabaI'll do a base install of x86 version with all tasks and will send the space used to sommer, is that ok?16:17
doluumaybe minimal requirement is 300MB, and recommended one is 1g is better?16:17
nealmcb. o O (how many angels fit on the head of a pin)16:17
sommernijaba: works for me.16:17
sommerhere's a link to where the current specs are: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/preparing-to-install.html16:17
nijabaWhat about ram..  I suggested increasing the minimum to 256M...16:19
sorennijaba: Why?16:19
dendrobatesnijaba: I disagree.16:19
sommernijaba: ya, I listed that incorrectly... the updated docs have 256M16:19
nealmcbanother hassle is the installer pulling in updates - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/11251616:19
ubotuLaunchpad bug 112516 in ubiquity "ubuquity using over 2 GB during apt upgrade due to unused packages" [Undecided,New]16:19
nealmcbso it is unpredictable16:20
sommernealmcb: does that apply to a new install?16:20
dendrobatesI think that it is important that we can run in 12816:20
nijabasoren: because I don't want people to think that anyone would have something that would swap all the time...16:20
nealmcbsommer: yes16:20
michalskiwe need to be realistic though, the oldest computers that work today have about 2gbs of space can we put that as a minimum just to be safe16:21
doluuhere is excerpt from Windows XP requirements "128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)"16:21
sorenWe are talking about *minimal* _*requirements*_. If I want it to be better, *I* add extra RAM. If it says that the minimal is 256, I'll be sure to add 512 instead.16:21
nijabamichalski: fully agree with you...  I don't see what we are targeting with 128M16:21
michalskidoluu: very good idea too16:21
dendrobateswith virtualisation, admins are slicing systems to the bare minimum at times for single purpose vms16:22
sorenWhat is the point of making the written requirements higher than the *actual* requirements?16:22
nijabasoren: safety16:22
sorenFrom what?16:23
jdstrandfwiw I think 128M is an important target too16:23
michalskisoren: you dont want your server going down because you dont have room to put an update16:23
nealmcb+1 on 12816:23
sorenmichalski: No. So?16:23
dendrobateswhat about the tasksel options.  did these numbers take into account selecting them all?16:23
mralphabetdendrobates: no16:23
nijabasoren: from people telling us that their servers are so slow...16:23
michalskisoren: be generous to your system and add a couple of mbs16:24
nealmcbI think we need to clarify that different servers have wildly different requirements, so people know they can do cool things on small platforms, and need more for users who, uh, accumulate mail :-)16:24
sorenmichalski: Bloating the minimal requirements will not magically add RAM to your system.16:24
sorenI think exaggerating the minimal requirements is an insult to our users.16:25
dendrobateshowever, I think we need to consider the tasksel tasks, or at least specify that we do not in the doc.16:25
sorendendrobates: Agreed.16:25
mralphabetSoren's point here is that it may not be the server team's job to tell you what it should be at, the admin can put whatever they want in the machine, it *is* the server teams job to tell you what at a minimum the system will work at.16:25
jdstrandit all comes down to the applications.  if you want a full on LAMP server or mail server for tens of thousands of users, then 128M and 300M hard drive won't cut it16:25
michalskidendrobates: agreed16:25
sorendendrobates: The numbers we put there should specify what they are actually representing.16:25
doluuguys what do you think about this page http://www.centos.org/docs/5/html/5.1/Installation_Guide/ch-ent-table.html?16:25
jdstrandbut that doesn't mean you can't install ubuntu server onto that system16:25
mralphabetsoren: sorry if I misrepresented your point16:25
* nealmcb wonders about a tasksel for "router with IDS" that would be really tight16:25
sorenmralphabet: No, that sums it fairly well :)16:26
mralphabetsoren: good, I agree with that point . .. it is MY job as an admin to determine what is acceptable minimum performance for my installation.16:27
michalskibut we need to add recommendations too, for newbies16:28
sorenmichalski: That's fine.16:28
mralphabetas somebody mentioned above, when dealing with single function servers, the minimum is what I can plan for16:28
soren...but they should be marked as such.16:28
sorenRequirements != recommendations16:28
doluusoren: agreed16:28
dendrobatesI think if we included a minimum, and also a realistic reccomendation for a lamp server that would be useful.16:28
mralphabetI agree16:29
sorenSounds reasonable16:29
sommerso do we document the minimum as with tasksel options or without?16:29
nijabaso minimum ram: 128M16:29
dendrobateswithout I think.16:29
jdstrand(as long as the minimum is 128M ;)16:29
mralphabetI would say without16:29
doluuI would say without16:29
nijabaminimum disk: will send for all tasks and without any, ok ?16:29
sommernijaba: works for me16:30
michalskinijaba: great16:30
dendrobatesI think lamp stack is good enough, we don't need to cover all cases.16:30
nijabaI will just cover min and max16:30
dendrobatesAs long as we are upfront and honest about the numbers, we should be fine.16:30
nijabaI think df is honest, AFAIK ;)16:31
doluuso we will have minimum numbers, and recommended numbers, right?16:31
nealmcbnijaba: well, remember stuff gets deleted as my bug points out - so it does need some padding16:31
nealmcbi.e. there is a higher "high water mark" on the df during the install16:32
nijabanealmcb: you were pointing to ubiquity, not d-i...16:32
nealmcbgood point16:32
sommerdoluu: I think we'll have min numbers and tasksel numbers16:32
doluuno problem16:32
nealmcbdoes d-i not get updates during install?16:32
dendrobates[ACTION] nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks16:32
nijabanealmcb: could do with autogrow partition in wmware16:32
MootBotACTION received:  nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks16:32
doluumaybe it would be nice to have table with names of tasks and required minimum numbers?16:33
michalskidoluu: yes16:34
doluuand we could add it to minimum reqs, have approximate min req for a installation16:34
dendrobateswe are halfway done.  Do we want to keep on this topic?16:34
sommerI don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think if you through a bunch of numbers at people it may be confusing16:34
dendrobatesIf we have more to discuss fine, if not, we need to move on.16:34
sommerI think we can move on.16:35
nealmcbmove on16:35
sorenYes, please.16:35
michalskimove on16:35
doluumove on16:35
michalskidont put too many numbers but dont let them have a big surprise later on16:35
dendrobatesSince the roadmap needs to be updated, we won't spen time going over it here.16:35
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nealmcbfactoids are in good shape now - I'll update that section16:36
dendrobates[TOPIC] The Debian import freeze is Thursday.16:36
MootBotNew Topic:  The Debian import freeze is Thursday.16:36
michalskiif i have a suggestion for the server edition how do i put it on the agenda?16:37
dendrobatessoren: are there any merges that we need to make sure are done.16:37
sorendendrobates: I think the last one we reaslistically have to worry about is multipath-tools, which I'm already all over.16:37
sommermichalski: you can update the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting16:38
dendrobatesmichalski: add it to the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting16:38
michalskiok thanks16:38
dendrobatessoren: good.16:38
dendrobates[TOPIC] ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?16:39
MootBotNew Topic:  ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?16:39
dendrobatesIs anyone working on this here?16:39
sommerI volenteered to help, but I'm not sure what the status is.16:40
sommerI know Rails released 2.0 last week.16:40
sorenI forget who was working on it.. mathiaz and ivoks, possibly.16:41
dendrobatesI'll look back and contact the people working on it.16:41
dendrobates[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.16:42
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.16:42
dendrobatesNext Tuesday at the same time ok?16:42
mralphabetsame bat time, same bat channel?16:42
doluuit's no related to anything we were talking here16:42
michalskidid i add that right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting#preview16:43
sommersame time and place works for me... just fyi16:43
nealmcbmichalski: " Suggest install option for GUI(Gnome,KDE,ect) on server edition."16:43
doluutoday Kir from OpenVZ said in email that the team is working hard OpenVZ available in next LTS16:43
sorenmichalski: If is't about adding gnome and kde tasks, then yes.16:43
michalskii'll try to make it next week but im in school so i might not be able to16:43
michalskinealmcb: yes16:44
doluuit will be based on 2.6.2416:44
nealmcbmichalski: our approach is to do guis via the web, not x11 - see ebox etc16:44
sorenmichalski: What's the use case?16:44
dendrobatesdoluu: yes, I will probaly not be in main, but I hope it will be available in some way.16:44
michalskisoren: newbie wants server but doesnt want to use command line utilities16:44
michalskieven if we added something realy basic for a gui it'd still be good16:45
dendrobatesdoluu: yes16:45
sorenmichalski: Then he doesn't want server.16:45
sorenmichalski: Simple.16:45
mralphabetmichalski: install desktop edition, then install apache or whatever on top of it16:45
nealmcbwell, there are kernel issues also16:46
dendrobatesmichalski: there is nothing that stops a user from using apt to install a desktop on the server.16:46
dendrobatesmichalski: we just don't support it.16:46
nealmcbbut that would only matter for high-performance servers16:46
mralphabetmichalski: heh, everybody answering for you16:46
michalskimralphabets: is there a help guide for that?16:46
michalskimralphabets: i know it sucks :P16:46
mralphabetmichalski: apache and whatever else should be included in the "add remove programs"16:46
sommermichalski: there's a task to create one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-89567453e89879dec5253fb3ba56d27c6d27fc3f16:47
dendrobatesthere is also nothing that stops a user from installing server apps on their desktop box16:47
nealmcbmichalski: but again - the direction for simple admin of a server in most of these cases is ebox -16:47
michalskiok thanks16:47
mralphabetmichalski: the desktop install pulls from the exact same repositories16:47
nijabasommer: minimal install, no tasks: 500M (466812928B) based on the vmdk size after install16:47
duluuI experiencing some problem with latest version of php516:47
nealmcbnijaba: stop doing work - we're talking!! :-)16:48
sommernijaba: sweet, I'll revise the docs.  Just to double check we're going with 128M ram and 500M hd?16:48
sorennijaba: That's a really good way to determinate it actually.16:48
duluualready file bug to LP, and maybe Kees is working on it16:48
nijabasommer: df shows 420M used16:48
sorennijaba: ..as that takes temporary storage into account.16:48
nijabasommer: yes16:48
sommercool I'll get it updated.16:49
nijabasommer: wait for the "all tasks" results16:49
sommernijaba: yep, will do16:49
michalskidendrobates: i want to join tons of different groups,but their meetings are during school hours, what do i do?16:51
michalski...without missing school :P16:51
sorenmichalski: Cut class.16:51
sommeranother item I had was that we're adding a lot of new conent to the docs and if anyone is willing to help review that would be awesome.16:51
nealmcbmichalski: you can participate in lots of stuff really well via email16:51
michalskiubuntu members?16:52
sommerI can send you the xml files if you don't want to check out the whole repo.16:52
nijabasommer: I'm always up for it :)16:52
michalskinijaba, sommer: thanks16:52
nealmcbmichalski: http://mcburnett.org/neal/talks/contribute_to_ubuntu.html16:52
sommernijaba: very cool, thanks16:53
michalskinealmcb: haha cool i am 14 :P16:53
nealmcbmichalski: we've already got one 14-year-old ubuntu member :-)16:53
nijabathe problem with young guys, is that they tend to grow older every year ;)16:54
michalskinealmcb: realy wow16:54
michalskilol yeah16:54
dendrobatesok, if there is nothing else, were done.16:57
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:57.16:57
sommerthanks all16:57
nealmcbmathias would be proud16:58
duluuthanks all16:58
nealmcbmichalski: chat with peanutb on e.g. #ubuntu-us17:00
michalskinealmcb: ok17:00
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ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: December 11 2007, 22:13:09 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 1 day22:13
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