[15:04] <michalski> is this working? im not sure somebody say something....
[15:04] <zul> yes it is
[15:05] <michalski> ok thanks
[15:26] <zul> @schedule montreal
[15:26] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development
[15:42] <michalski> @schedule halifax
[15:42] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Halifax: 12 Dec 19:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 11:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development
[15:43] <nealmcb> server team meeting here in 15 minutes....
[15:52] <michalski> can i sit in?
[15:52] <michalski> im not part of it
[15:52] <sommer> michalski: open to all
[15:53] <michalski> ok thanks
[15:54] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[15:59] <dendrobates> Hey everyone
[16:00] <dendrobates> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is dendrobates.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <sommer> hello
[16:00] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:00] <soren> Hi, guys.
[16:00] <zul> hi
[16:00] <duluu> hi
[16:02] <dendrobates> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:03] <dendrobates> action 1: mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmap with the specs for hardy
[16:03] <dendrobates> mathiaz is on holiday.
[16:04] <dendrobates> I haven't checked to see if this was done.   Does anyone know offhand?
[16:04] <soren> Sorry, no.
[16:04] <dendrobates> I just checked as well.
[16:05] <dendrobates> action 2: nijaba will check the minimun requirement for an installation of ubuntu-server
[16:06] <sommer> that was done and the installation and introduction sections of the serverguide are updated.
[16:06] <soren> Cool. What was the result?
[16:06] <dendrobates> cool
[16:06] <sommer> 128M memory and a 1G hd space... on x86, amd64, and Sparc
[16:06]  * nijaba is late... sorry
[16:06] <dendrobates> action 3:    sommer will add an item about writing a wiki page to install a minimal GUI on the server
[16:07] <sommer> there's an item on the road map, but I don't think the actual article has been started yet.
[16:07] <dendrobates> do you really need 1GB of HD space?
[16:07] <sommer> dendrobates: I wouldn't install with less... need space for log files and such
[16:08] <dendrobates> ok.
[16:08] <nijaba> dendrobates: it all depends on what you want to do...
[16:08] <sommer> I guess technically ~600M would work
[16:08] <sommer> but you probably won't be happy for long
[16:08] <nealmcb> syslog remotely....
[16:08] <soren> I would have guessed half of that.
[16:09] <dendrobates> I supose it doesn't hurt to go 1GB.
[16:09] <soren> Minimal requirements are not about being happy. They're about minimal requirements.
[16:09] <nealmcb> unless we're trying to attract the largest segment - smaller and smaller servers
[16:09] <nealmcb> ala jeos (which is different, but some similar motivations)
[16:10] <dendrobates> soren: it depends how it is presented.  I have seen recommended miniumum system requirements.
[16:10] <soren> If the installation requires 300MB to actually be installable, those are the minimal requirements. If people want to have space for data, they should add that to the 300 MB.
[16:10] <nealmcb> there are so many different kinds of servers
[16:10] <dendrobates> What are we trying to accomplish with this information?
[16:11] <nijaba> dendrobates: Give a reasonable sense, to newcomer, of what a server install might require
[16:11] <soren> dendrobates: I think that's silly. We're trying to establish minimal requirements, not "minimal requirements leaving space for 600 MB of data".
[16:11] <nijaba> not tell people how little space we can tweak it to fit in with
[16:11] <nealmcb> so we could talk about firewall servers, web servers, mail servers etc
[16:12] <nijaba> nealmcb: agreed
[16:12] <nealmcb> I suggest linking to the existing text and letting people propose updates
[16:12] <soren> The only number that objectively makes sense is the size of a standard install. We have no way of knowing how much data a user will want to have on his server.
[16:13] <zul> cant we have minimum and suggested size?
[16:13] <doluu> soren: agreed
[16:13] <dendrobates> However if var fills up on the second reboot, that is not a usable system.
[16:13] <soren> Will everyone be happy if we don't say "The minimal requiremenst are X MB", but instead "A default installation of UBuntu Server only takes up X MB"?
[16:13] <nijaba> soren: does it really matter whether we say 600M or 1G?  Even flash rives are bigger than this nowdays!
[16:13] <doluu> maybe we should include info on that
[16:13] <soren> That's as unambiguous as it gets.
[16:13] <doluu> or recommendations
[16:14] <nijaba> soren: ok for your rewording
[16:14] <jdstrand> soren: +1 on soren phrasing
[16:15] <sommer> works for me, currenlty the specs are listed in a table
[16:15] <sommer> I guess change "Hard Drive Space" to "Hard Drive Space Used"?
[16:15] <soren> If that's what the data actually is, then yes.
[16:15] <soren> If it's recommended sizes, I call bogus on them.
[16:15] <doluu> nowdays every administrator nows that they must have something bigger than recommended
[16:16] <mralphabet> perhaps with a "*This does not include any extra packages, logs, or data that accumulate"
[16:16] <soren> If the install takes 500 MB and we say "1GB is required", we're somehow implying that a usual amount of data to have on a system is 500 MB. That's nonsense.
[16:16] <michalski> what if we made several tables saying how much we recommend and how much you need on the different types of installs
[16:16] <michalski> ftp, http ect
[16:17] <nijaba> I'll do a base install of x86 version with all tasks and will send the space used to sommer, is that ok?
[16:17] <doluu> maybe minimal requirement is 300MB, and recommended one is 1g is better?
[16:17] <nealmcb> . o O (how many angels fit on the head of a pin)
[16:17] <sommer> nijaba: works for me.
[16:17] <sommer> here's a link to where the current specs are: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/preparing-to-install.html
[16:19] <nijaba> What about ram..  I suggested increasing the minimum to 256M...
[16:19] <soren> nijaba: Why?
[16:19] <dendrobates> nijaba: I disagree.
[16:19] <sommer> nijaba: ya, I listed that incorrectly... the updated docs have 256M
[16:19] <nealmcb> another hassle is the installer pulling in updates - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/112516
[16:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 112516 in ubiquity "ubuquity using over 2 GB during apt upgrade due to unused packages" [Undecided,New]
[16:20] <nealmcb> so it is unpredictable
[16:20] <sommer> nealmcb: does that apply to a new install?
[16:20] <dendrobates> I think that it is important that we can run in 128
[16:20] <nijaba> soren: because I don't want people to think that anyone would have something that would swap all the time...
[16:20] <nealmcb> sommer: yes
[16:20] <sommer> gotcha
[16:21] <michalski> we need to be realistic though, the oldest computers that work today have about 2gbs of space can we put that as a minimum just to be safe
[16:21] <doluu> here is excerpt from Windows XP requirements "128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)"
[16:21] <soren> We are talking about *minimal* _*requirements*_. If I want it to be better, *I* add extra RAM. If it says that the minimal is 256, I'll be sure to add 512 instead.
[16:21] <nijaba> michalski: fully agree with you...  I don't see what we are targeting with 128M
[16:21] <michalski> doluu: very good idea too
[16:22] <dendrobates> with virtualisation, admins are slicing systems to the bare minimum at times for single purpose vms
[16:22] <soren> What is the point of making the written requirements higher than the *actual* requirements?
[16:22] <nijaba> soren: safety
[16:23] <soren> From what?
[16:23] <jdstrand> fwiw I think 128M is an important target too
[16:23] <michalski> soren: you dont want your server going down because you dont have room to put an update
[16:23] <nealmcb> +1 on 128
[16:23] <soren> michalski: No. So?
[16:23] <dendrobates> what about the tasksel options.  did these numbers take into account selecting them all?
[16:23] <mralphabet> dendrobates: no
[16:23] <nijaba> soren: from people telling us that their servers are so slow...
[16:24] <michalski> soren: be generous to your system and add a couple of mbs
[16:24] <nealmcb> I think we need to clarify that different servers have wildly different requirements, so people know they can do cool things on small platforms, and need more for users who, uh, accumulate mail :-)
[16:24] <soren> michalski: Bloating the minimal requirements will not magically add RAM to your system.
[16:25] <soren> I think exaggerating the minimal requirements is an insult to our users.
[16:25] <dendrobates> however, I think we need to consider the tasksel tasks, or at least specify that we do not in the doc.
[16:25] <nealmcb> right
[16:25] <soren> dendrobates: Agreed.
[16:25] <mralphabet> Soren's point here is that it may not be the server team's job to tell you what it should be at, the admin can put whatever they want in the machine, it *is* the server teams job to tell you what at a minimum the system will work at.
[16:25] <jdstrand> it all comes down to the applications.  if you want a full on LAMP server or mail server for tens of thousands of users, then 128M and 300M hard drive won't cut it
[16:25] <michalski> dendrobates: agreed
[16:25] <soren> dendrobates: The numbers we put there should specify what they are actually representing.
[16:25] <doluu> guys what do you think about this page http://www.centos.org/docs/5/html/5.1/Installation_Guide/ch-ent-table.html?
[16:25] <jdstrand> but that doesn't mean you can't install ubuntu server onto that system
[16:25] <mralphabet> soren: sorry if I misrepresented your point
[16:25]  * nealmcb wonders about a tasksel for "router with IDS" that would be really tight
[16:26] <soren> mralphabet: No, that sums it fairly well :)
[16:27] <mralphabet> soren: good, I agree with that point . .. it is MY job as an admin to determine what is acceptable minimum performance for my installation.
[16:28] <michalski> but we need to add recommendations too, for newbies
[16:28] <soren> michalski: That's fine.
[16:28] <mralphabet> as somebody mentioned above, when dealing with single function servers, the minimum is what I can plan for
[16:28] <soren> ...but they should be marked as such.
[16:28] <soren> Requirements != recommendations
[16:28] <michalski> soren:agreed
[16:28] <doluu> soren: agreed
[16:28] <dendrobates> I think if we included a minimum, and also a realistic reccomendation for a lamp server that would be useful.
[16:29] <mralphabet> I agree
[16:29] <soren> Sounds reasonable
[16:29] <nijaba> +1
[16:29] <jdstrand> +1
[16:29] <sommer> so do we document the minimum as with tasksel options or without?
[16:29] <nijaba> so minimum ram: 128M
[16:29] <dendrobates> without I think.
[16:29] <jdstrand> (as long as the minimum is 128M ;)
[16:29] <mralphabet> I would say without
[16:29] <doluu> I would say without
[16:29] <nijaba> minimum disk: will send for all tasks and without any, ok ?
[16:30] <sommer> nijaba: works for me
[16:30] <michalski> nijaba: great
[16:30] <dendrobates> I think lamp stack is good enough, we don't need to cover all cases.
[16:30] <nijaba> I will just cover min and max
[16:30] <dendrobates> As long as we are upfront and honest about the numbers, we should be fine.
[16:31] <nijaba> I think df is honest, AFAIK ;)
[16:31] <doluu> so we will have minimum numbers, and recommended numbers, right?
[16:31] <nealmcb> nijaba: well, remember stuff gets deleted as my bug points out - so it does need some padding
[16:32] <nealmcb> i.e. there is a higher "high water mark" on the df during the install
[16:32] <nijaba> nealmcb: you were pointing to ubiquity, not d-i...
[16:32] <nealmcb> good point
[16:32] <sommer> doluu: I think we'll have min numbers and tasksel numbers
[16:32] <doluu> no problem
[16:32] <nealmcb> does d-i not get updates during install?
[16:32] <dendrobates> [ACTION] nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
[16:32] <nijaba> nealmcb: could do with autogrow partition in wmware
[16:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
[16:33] <nealmcb> cool!
[16:33] <doluu> maybe it would be nice to have table with names of tasks and required minimum numbers?
[16:34] <michalski> doluu: yes
[16:34] <doluu> and we could add it to minimum reqs, have approximate min req for a installation
[16:34] <doluu> great
[16:34] <dendrobates> we are halfway done.  Do we want to keep on this topic?
[16:34] <sommer> I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think if you through a bunch of numbers at people it may be confusing
[16:34] <dendrobates> If we have more to discuss fine, if not, we need to move on.
[16:35] <sommer> I think we can move on.
[16:35] <nealmcb> move on
[16:35] <soren> Yes, please.
[16:35] <michalski> yes
[16:35] <michalski> move on
[16:35] <doluu> move on
[16:35] <doluu> :)
[16:35] <michalski> dont put too many numbers but dont let them have a big surprise later on
[16:35] <dendrobates> Since the roadmap needs to be updated, we won't spen time going over it here.
[16:36] <nealmcb> factoids are in good shape now - I'll update that section
[16:36] <dendrobates> [TOPIC] The Debian import freeze is Thursday.
[16:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  The Debian import freeze is Thursday.
[16:37] <michalski> if i have a suggestion for the server edition how do i put it on the agenda?
[16:37] <dendrobates> soren: are there any merges that we need to make sure are done.
[16:37] <soren> dendrobates: I think the last one we reaslistically have to worry about is multipath-tools, which I'm already all over.
[16:38] <sommer> michalski: you can update the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:38] <dendrobates> michalski: add it to the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:38] <michalski> ok thanks
[16:38] <dendrobates> soren: good.
[16:39] <dendrobates> [TOPIC] ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?
[16:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?
[16:39] <dendrobates> Is anyone working on this here?
[16:40] <sommer> I volenteered to help, but I'm not sure what the status is.
[16:40] <sommer> I know Rails released 2.0 last week.
[16:40] <sommer> :)
[16:41] <soren> I forget who was working on it.. mathiaz and ivoks, possibly.
[16:41] <dendrobates> I'll look back and contact the people working on it.
[16:42] <dendrobates> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[16:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[16:42] <dendrobates> Next Tuesday at the same time ok?
[16:42] <mralphabet> same bat time, same bat channel?
[16:42] <doluu> it's no related to anything we were talking here
[16:43] <michalski> did i add that right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting#preview
[16:43] <sommer> same time and place works for me... just fyi
[16:43] <nealmcb> michalski: " Suggest install option for GUI(Gnome,KDE,ect) on server edition."
[16:43] <doluu> today Kir from OpenVZ said in email that the team is working hard OpenVZ available in next LTS
[16:43] <soren> michalski: If is't about adding gnome and kde tasks, then yes.
[16:43] <michalski> i'll try to make it next week but im in school so i might not be able to
[16:44] <michalski> nealmcb: yes
[16:44] <doluu> it will be based on 2.6.24
[16:44] <nealmcb> michalski: our approach is to do guis via the web, not x11 - see ebox etc
[16:44] <soren> michalski: What's the use case?
[16:44] <dendrobates> doluu: yes, I will probaly not be in main, but I hope it will be available in some way.
[16:44] <michalski> soren: newbie wants server but doesnt want to use command line utilities
[16:45] <michalski> even if we added something realy basic for a gui it'd still be good
[16:45] <dendrobates> doluu: yes
[16:45] <soren> michalski: Then he doesn't want server.
[16:45] <soren> michalski: Simple.
[16:45] <mralphabet> michalski: install desktop edition, then install apache or whatever on top of it
[16:46] <nealmcb> well, there are kernel issues also
[16:46] <dendrobates> michalski: there is nothing that stops a user from using apt to install a desktop on the server.
[16:46] <dendrobates> michalski: we just don't support it.
[16:46] <nealmcb> but that would only matter for high-performance servers
[16:46] <mralphabet> michalski: heh, everybody answering for you
[16:46] <michalski> mralphabets: is there a help guide for that?
[16:46] <michalski> mralphabets: i know it sucks :P
[16:46] <mralphabet> michalski: apache and whatever else should be included in the "add remove programs"
[16:47] <sommer> michalski: there's a task to create one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-89567453e89879dec5253fb3ba56d27c6d27fc3f
[16:47] <dendrobates> there is also nothing that stops a user from installing server apps on their desktop box
[16:47] <nealmcb> michalski: but again - the direction for simple admin of a server in most of these cases is ebox -
[16:47] <michalski> ok thanks
[16:47] <mralphabet> michalski: the desktop install pulls from the exact same repositories
[16:47] <nijaba> sommer: minimal install, no tasks: 500M (466812928B) based on the vmdk size after install
[16:47] <duluu> I experiencing some problem with latest version of php5
[16:48] <nealmcb> nijaba: stop doing work - we're talking!! :-)
[16:48] <sommer> nijaba: sweet, I'll revise the docs.  Just to double check we're going with 128M ram and 500M hd?
[16:48] <soren> nijaba: That's a really good way to determinate it actually.
[16:48] <duluu> already file bug to LP, and maybe Kees is working on it
[16:48] <nijaba> sommer: df shows 420M used
[16:48] <soren> nijaba: ..as that takes temporary storage into account.
[16:48] <nijaba> sommer: yes
[16:49] <sommer> cool I'll get it updated.
[16:49] <nijaba> sommer: wait for the "all tasks" results
[16:49] <sommer> nijaba: yep, will do
[16:51] <michalski> dendrobates: i want to join tons of different groups,but their meetings are during school hours, what do i do?
[16:51] <michalski> ...without missing school :P
[16:51] <soren> michalski: Cut class.
[16:51] <soren> Oh.
[16:51] <soren> :)
[16:51] <michalski> lol
[16:51] <sommer> another item I had was that we're adding a lot of new conent to the docs and if anyone is willing to help review that would be awesome.
[16:51] <nealmcb> michalski: you can participate in lots of stuff really well via email
[16:52] <michalski> ubuntu members?
[16:52] <sommer> I can send you the xml files if you don't want to check out the whole repo.
[16:52] <nijaba> sommer: I'm always up for it :)
[16:52] <michalski> nijaba, sommer: thanks
[16:52] <nealmcb> michalski: http://mcburnett.org/neal/talks/contribute_to_ubuntu.html
[16:53] <sommer> nijaba: very cool, thanks
[16:53] <michalski> nealmcb: haha cool i am 14 :P
[16:53] <nealmcb> michalski: we've already got one 14-year-old ubuntu member :-)
[16:54] <nijaba> the problem with young guys, is that they tend to grow older every year ;)
[16:54] <michalski> nealmcb: realy wow
[16:54] <mralphabet> o0
[16:54] <michalski> lol yeah
[16:57] <dendrobates> ok, if there is nothing else, were done.
[16:57] <dendrobates> #endmeeting
[16:57] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:57.
[16:57] <soren> Woo!
[16:57] <sommer> thanks all
[16:58] <nijaba> cheers
[16:58] <nealmcb> mathias would be proud
[16:58] <duluu> thanks all
[17:00] <nealmcb> michalski: chat with peanutb on e.g. #ubuntu-us
[17:00] <michalski> nealmcb: ok
[22:13] <ardchoille> @now
[22:13] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 11 2007, 22:13:09 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 1 day