[03:19] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[03:19] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 13 Dec 10:00: Kubuntu Developers | 14 Dec 01:00: Desktop Team Development | 19 Dec 02:00: Server Team meeting | 21 Dec 01:00: Desktop Team Development
[03:22] <ardchoille> The more I see ubotu do, the more useful he appears :)
[03:22] <ardchoille> kudos to ubotu's developer
[03:22] <Hobbsee> ardchoille: ther eare multiple
[03:22] <Hobbsee> ardchoille: and contrary to what scottk says, kubuntu and ubuntu membership are pretty much the same.
[03:23] <ardchoille> Hobbsee: Ah, ok.. well I'm on the agenda for both. I just didn't wanna miss the meetings.
[03:25] <somerville32> What does ScottK have to say about that?
[03:25] <Hobbsee> CC meetings take forever
[03:25] <ardchoille> He told me to become an Ubuntu member and bug Hobbsee until she added me to kubuntu membership too
[03:26] <somerville32> That was cute of him
[03:26] <Hobbsee> scottk has now been enlightened.
[03:27] <Hobbsee> somerville32: people make mistakes at times.
[03:27] <Hobbsee> somerville32: do you even have an edubuntu council yet?
[03:27] <somerville32> Hobbsee, I'm pretty edubuntu has a council but I'm not a part of it. I only got involved in Edubuntu recently
[03:27] <somerville32> *pretty sure
[03:28] <Hobbsee> erm, s/edubuntu/xubuntu/ sorry.
[03:28] <somerville32> No, it doesn't have a council - just xubuntu-team really
[03:28] <Hobbsee> edubuntu has a council
[03:29] <somerville32> cool
[15:53] <calc> hi
[15:57]  * asac waves
[15:57] <evand> hi
[15:58] <heno> hi
[15:58] <liw> hi, evand
[15:58]  * pedro_ waves
[15:58] <heno> evand, asac: do we have a meeting room clash again? - platform/qa
[15:58] <evand> ah, apparently
[15:59] <evand> hi liw
[15:59] <evand> hrm, off to #ubuntu-platform then
[15:59] <asac> oh
[15:59]  * ArneGoetje waves
[16:00]  * Hobbsee wonders why neither of them are on the fridge calendar.
[16:00] <asac> ArneGoetje: -> #ubuntu-platform
[16:00] <seb128> hi
[16:00] <ArneGoetje> asac: got it
[16:00] <asac> seb128: u2 ;)
[16:00]  * heno did email the fridge editors requesting a posting
[16:01] <Hobbsee> did you sacrifice a pigeon?  they're quite partial to pigeons.
[16:01]  * bdmurray wonders what he missed
[16:01] <ogasawara> heh
[16:01] <Hobbsee> quite unlike launchpad, really.  perhaps a good thing, that.
[16:01] <liw> bdmurray, :) "* heno did email the fridge editors requesting a posting"
[16:02] <Hobbsee> bdmurray: only discussions about sacrificing qa developers for various causes.
[16:02] <heno> only if we run out of pigeons
[16:02] <bdmurray> Weird, I think I had a dream about being eaten by a hippo last night
[16:03] <heno> #startmeeting
[16:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is heno.
[16:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:03] <liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam has the agenda
[16:03] <heno> Welcome all! Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
[16:04] <heno> [TOPIC] Cool QA stuff happening
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Cool QA stuff happening
[16:04] <heno> This shouldn't require much discussion, just FIY
[16:05] <heno> all very cool though :)
[16:05] <liw> I have a quick question
[16:05] <heno> ok
[16:06] <liw> ogasawara, how close are you to accepting random new sources of information with the weather report? I'm thinking that the hardy piuparts results might be a good addition
[16:06] <ogasawara> liw: should be easy enough, it's basically just a template that I dump the data to
[16:07] <liw> ogasawara, ok, in that case could you e-mail me what you would need from me? I can adjust the piuparts output to what you need easily
[16:07] <ogasawara> liw:  will do
[16:07] <liw> ogasawara, when you're ready to add things, that is, no hurry yet from me
[16:08] <heno> liw: how would you plan to condense it? Total number of errors, warnings, etc?
[16:08] <liw> ok, I'm done on this topic :)
[16:08] <liw> heno, in useful ways that I haven't decided yet :)
[16:08] <heno> ok
[16:08] <heno> anyone else on this topic?
[16:09] <heno> moving on
[16:09] <heno> [TOPIC] Spec status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
[16:10] <heno> any notable achievements or blockage on specs?
[16:10] <ogasawara> none here
[16:10] <heno> (this meeting item will become more central later in the cycle)
[16:10] <liw> nothing from me; I haven't really started work on the automated desktop testing thing, having spent my time wrestling with piuparts and qemu and wandering about the Spanish plains
[16:11] <pedro_> none here either, just waiting for the QA feedback module
[16:11] <heno> liw: the lintian and piuparts stuff could have been represented by a spec I guess
[16:11] <liw> heno, I guess
[16:12] <heno> ok, next
[16:12] <heno> [TOPIC] QA hardy bug list - we are preparing a list of long-standing and 'popular' bugs for hardy which we will present to the development community shortly
[16:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA hardy bug list - we are preparing a list of long-standing and 'popular' bugs for hardy which we will present to the development community shortly
[16:12] <heno> I just sent an email to the QA list about this
[16:13] <heno> I've had feedback from Pedro by email so far
[16:14] <liw> I think it sounds like a great idea; I don't have any particular bugs to suggest, though
[16:14] <heno> I guess the main question is: can we do this in ~10 days?
[16:14] <liw> (except anything I've reported myself, obviously ;-)
[16:15] <heno> yes, that would be why I didn't post it to the ubuntu-users mailing list :)
[16:15] <heno> every bug in LP would be nominated
[16:15] <heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: views?
[16:16] <liw> this list is going to be compiled with the best possible taste, I guess, not by voting?
[16:16] <heno> liw: drawing on the accumulated knowledge of our esteemed triage team, yes
[16:16] <bdmurray> heno: I think I can get mine done by then
[16:16] <ogasawara> heno: yah, seems reasonable
[16:16] <bdmurray> The next hug day should be pretty easy to setup I think
[16:17] <heno> bdmurray: focusing on this list?
[16:17] <pedro_> we also have a few nominations here : https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+nominations
[16:17] <bdmurray> heno: I meant it won't take that much of the rest of my time
[16:17] <heno> pedro_: yep, I'll take on looking at those
[16:18] <heno> bdmurray: ok cool
[16:18] <pedro_> ok!
[16:18] <heno> any other meeting topics?
[16:18] <bdmurray> ogasawara: and I have talked about it but we were thinking kernel bugs for the 19th
[16:19] <bdmurray> asking people to test with Alpha 2
[16:19]  * liw has no more topics for today
[16:19] <heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: sounds good
[16:20] <bdmurray> We could start doing some statistic collecing on the +nominations . . .
[16:21] <heno> bdmurray: what sort of stats?
[16:21] <bdmurray> heno: just numbering gathering - the standard stuff
[16:21] <bdmurray> er number gathering ;)
[16:21] <Hobbsee> heno: forums should be able to help you with that, too
[16:22]  * heno still has a fair number of +nominations to go through
[16:22] <bdmurray> interestingly 18 of the hardy ones are New
[16:22] <heno> Hobbsee: yep, jono is looking at that
[16:23] <heno> most of the gutsy ones i've looked at were new
[16:23] <heno> (now generally something else)
[16:24] <Hobbsee> heno: cool
[16:24] <bdmurray> Will everybody be around on the 2nd of January for the next Hug Day?
[16:24] <ogasawara> bdmurray: I'll be here
[16:24] <heno> I will
[16:24] <bdmurray> pedro_: ?
[16:24] <pedro_> yep me too
[16:24] <liw> I will, too
[16:24] <liw> assuming it is of any help
[16:25] <bdmurray> sure it is
[16:25] <heno> finally note that there is a bug day today as well! focusing on ubiquity bugs. -> #ubuntu-bugs
[16:25] <heno> #endmeeting
[16:25] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:25.
[16:25] <heno> ok, thanks all!
[16:26] <heno> 25 minutes, not bad :)
[16:26] <liw> we're learning :)
[16:26] <bdmurray> So Friday it will be 4 weeks past the update-manager bug day
[16:26]  * liw needs to run
[16:26] <liw> bye bye
[16:26] <bdmurray> So please go through your Incompletes or I'll be happy to do it for you
[16:26] <seb128> I've a bugtriage suggestion
[16:26] <seb128> needs to mail the list about that
[16:27] <seb128> but it would be nice to encourage users to get backtraces using apport
[16:27] <seb128> rather than pointing them to the "how to use gdb instructions"
[16:27] <bdmurray> seb128: what do you mean?
[16:27] <seb128> that would be much easier for them and would allow automatic retracing and duplicates closing
[16:27] <seb128> bdmurray: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[16:27] <seb128> Missing a back trace
[16:28] <seb128> "Thank you for taking the time to report this bug and helping to make Ubuntu better. Please try to obtain a backtrace following the instructions at [WWW] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash and upload the backtrace (as an attachment) to the bug report. This will greatly help us in tracking down your problem."
[16:28] <bdmurray> I meant more the process for using apport to get the back trace
[16:28] <stgraber> hello
[16:28] <seb128> well, tell them to go to /var/crash and double click on the .crash
[16:28] <seb128> rather than send them to "how to get a backtrace using gdb"
[16:29] <bdmurray> okay, I understand
[16:29] <seb128> this way we get automatic retracing, dub finder, etc
[16:29] <seb128> and they don't have to figure what dbgsym to install
[16:29] <seb128> easier for everybody
[16:31] <bdmurray> seb128: If you could mail then list and/or add it to the todo list that would be great
[16:31] <seb128> I'll mail the list
[19:52] <scrapbunny> is the edubuntu meeting in a few minutes?
[19:53] <LaserJock> yep
[19:53] <scrapbunny> great, thanks
[19:56] <ardchoille> Is the kubuntu meeting going to be held in here in about 3 hours?
[19:59] <scrapbunny> ardchoille- according to the fridge, yes
[19:59] <ardchoille> scrapbunny: Thanks.
[20:00] <ardchoille> I have a habit of being somewhere other than where I wanted to be, lol
[20:00]  * stgraber waves
[20:00] <ardchoille> "fridge", that was a cool name. I wonder who thought of that.
[20:01] <ogra> ardchoille, eff waugh
[20:01] <ogra> *jeff
[20:01] <ardchoille> :)
[20:02] <LaserJock> ok, I'm here
[20:02] <RichEd> oh what a relief we can begin ... the *main man* Mr LaserJock is in attendance
[20:02] <RichEd> :)
[20:02] <LaserJock> hah
[20:03] <scrapbunny> thanks to the mailing list i finally figured out how to tell what time these meetings are at
[20:03] <RichEd> evening all ... the usuals ... and welcome to any newcomers
[20:03] <ogra> scrapbunny, yeah the fridge urgently needs fixing
[20:03] <ardchoille> scrapbunny: Indeed, I dislike time zones
[20:03] <RichEd> hi scrapbunny ... yep we need to get our meetings back up on the fridge ... it got dinged a while back
[20:04] <ogra> well, for the other teams in the topic it seems to work
[20:04] <RichEd> ogra: i asked for today's meeting to go up in the fridge channel ... and requested to the end of jan via the mail list
[20:04] <ogra> ah, good
[20:04] <RichEd> we'll skip "boxing day" to have a decent break from komputas
[20:04] <LaserJock> yeah, I'll try to get to those
[20:05] <LaserJock> I'm not sure why we don't have a decent event scheduler yet, but it is what it is
[20:05] <scrapbunny> the time zone thing got me but i learned how to find out the universial time in terminal :)
[20:06] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: yeah, it's a life saver for sure
[20:06] <RichEd> one sec ... let me get the list for the next while and paste
[20:07] <RichEd> --> Edubuntu Meeting : Dec 19 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 02 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 09 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 16 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 17 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 23 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 30 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
[20:07] <RichEd> <-- that will all go up on the fridge
[20:07] <RichEd> okay ... let's kick off with TECHNICAL
[20:07] <RichEd> take it away ogra ...
[20:08] <ogra> well, i actually have done nothing edubuntu related apart from working on the classmate image autobuilder stuff with the livefs tools
[20:09] <ogra> beyond that debian import freeze is tomorrow and i had to do merge stuff
[20:09] <ogra> (still two packages left for the night)
[20:09] <ogra> due to traveling i didnt to and dev work during the beginning of the week
[20:09] <ogra> *do
[20:10] <ogra> ahead we have the alpha2 release on dec 20th
[20:10] <ogra> i'll try to get the major CD changes done for that
[20:10] <LaserJock> so we are going to drop the 1st CD for Hardy?
[20:10] <ogra> yes
[20:10] <RichEd> hey corey :)
[20:10] <scrapbunny> ogra- you might not think it technical but without your tech help this month  I would have nothing working so I really thank you :)
[20:11] <ogra> and ltsp needs to go on the ubuntu alternate CD properly
[20:11] <RichEd> for the benefit of the new people, ogra please explain:
[20:11] <RichEd> #1 what is happening with LTSP
[20:11] <RichEd> #2 and your new reporting structure ... being part of a bigger team
[20:12] <ogra> scrapbunny, well, even though i was slightly bitter when answering the mail on the list today, there is a grin of truth in the thread about degrading quality and we need to adress that
[20:12] <RichEd> ( please :)
[20:12] <ogra> *grain
[20:13]  * RichEd pleads in our defence that we have recognised almost all of the problem areas, and are already adressing some
[20:13] <ogra> well, LTSP is team maintained by a board of developers from fedora, debian, upstream and ubuntu now, we changed the whole code structure and sparated the distro specific packaging ...
[20:14] <ogra> inside ubuntu it will move on the ubuntu alternate CD as an option
[20:14] <Burgundavia> hey RichEd
[20:14] <ogra> the first edubuntu CD will go away and edubuntu will completely turn into an addon
[20:16] <ogra> ...
[20:16] <ogra> i moved back into the distro team from being a developer "team" on my own
[20:17] <ogra> distro specific tasks i had to do in edubuntu will rather be delegated to the specalists for the specific feature  ... i.e. server related work will be done with the server team
[20:17] <LaserJock> who will work on LTSP?
[20:18] <ogra> so i can share out more workload whle helping the team as a whole
[20:18] <ogra> LaserJock, upstream or in ubuntu ?
[20:18] <LaserJock> ubuntu
[20:18] <ogra> me fr now
[20:18] <ogra> *for
[20:18] <scrapbunny> so with hardy for a school lab we would install ubuntu from the alternate cd for ltsp and then edubuntu-desktop?
[20:19] <ogra> scrapbunny, right
[20:19] <ogra> that way edubuntu-desktop can be only lots of edu apps and branding while it depends on ubuntu-desktop  ... i.e. we dont need to maintain ubuntu-desktop and only have to care for the edu related stuff
[20:20] <ogra> that raises quality since more time for the actual apps is available
[20:20] <ogra> the sam goes for the distro core ... installer, etc
[20:20] <ogra> *same
[20:20] <scrapbunny> that will be good. will we go to having edubuntu-desktop updated once a year?
[20:20] <ogra> it drops off a lot workload and ubuntu benefits as well
[20:21] <ogra> edubuntu is tied o the ubuntu cycle
[20:21] <ogra> what we coud do is to call one a beta release
[20:21] <ogra> *could
[20:21] <LaserJock> I don't think we really gain anything by doing 1 year releases
[20:21] <ogra> but we will have to stick to the release schedules of ubuntu
[20:22] <ogra> me neither to be honest
[20:22] <RichEd> scrapbunny: the alternating "production / evaluation" release for education was just a suggestion (as per the mail list today)
[20:22] <scrapbunny> i think that sounds good and goes with what people were saying on the mailing list
[20:22] <LaserJock> we can try to do a "we're gonna focus on crack on .10 releases and bug fixing/stability on .04" but we should still release every 6 months IMO
[20:22] <RichEd> we can debate it through ... but the school terms north/south is still an issue
[20:23] <ogra> beyond that as i said we're bound to the schedule
[20:23]  * ogra points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[20:23] <ogra> there is only a slim time of development
[20:23] <ogra> then the different stabilizing freezes kick in
[20:24] <ogra> for doing a 1 year release that doesnt do well
[20:24] <RichEd> scrapbunny: the idea of a stable tested release alternating with a whizz bang preview release seems to have some support
[20:24] <ogra> since everything breaks in the middle of your relese schedule if ubuntu resyncs with debian
[20:24] <ogra> so you can start over
[20:24] <RichEd> we'll still release every 6 months, but could pay more attention to testing and stability for an agreed annual release
[20:24] <scrapbunny> really given what ogra is saying that edubuntu will now be an add on I think people will be able to pick if they want to update to 8.4 or 8.10 or both
[20:25] <ogra> i'm pretty sure that makes it less stable that imply getting enough (read more than 3) testers
[20:25] <ogra> *simply
[20:25] <stgraber> :)
[20:25] <RichEd> let's keep that discussion going in the mail list ... 8.04 is LTS ... so the point is moot for another cycle at least
[20:26] <ogra> well, the point of more manpower is never moot
[20:26] <RichEd> ogra: agreed ... but it may be easier to rope the community into an annual wall-to-wall testing effort
[20:26] <RichEd> like a "test fest week" :)
[20:26] <scrapbunny> sorry for a silly question but when can we start testing 8.04?
[20:26] <ogra> today :)
[20:27] <ogra> there are daily isos being built ... we made the first alpha CD
[20:27] <RichEd> stgraber: you've got a neat testing admin process ... is there a newbies follow the yellow footsteps guide to getting involved ?
[20:27] <stgraber> well, IIRC current images have gnome-orca and OpenOffice broken, but you can still get the Alpha1 and upgrade
[20:27] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule has the release dates for alpha CDs
[20:28] <scrapbunny> i would be happy to test it out as we go on a winter break next week
[20:28] <ogra> wrt to ltsp that will move over to the ubuntu alternate iso so testing will have to happen with that one
[20:28] <RichEd> stgraber: ^ my comment ??
[20:28] <stgraber> RichEd: joining #ubuntu-testing the week we release the Alpha is a start, the Testing/ wikipages are currently being rewritten to be more attractive and understandable to newcomers
[20:30] <RichEd> stgraber: well as I said in the mail response today, testing is *vital* to oliver ... let's make sure that *anyone* who wants to help can get invoved as easily as possible ...
[20:30] <RichEd> *involved
[20:31] <RichEd> highvoltage: you around ?
[20:31] <scrapbunny> 7.10 is not working well with my client load so i am trying to decide if I should a)use 7.04 b)try debian-edu c)test 8.04 or d) give up since i am still pretty new to everything and in over my head :)
[20:31] <beachy>    /part ubuntu
[20:31] <RichEd> a nice prominent "you can be a tester" link on edubuntu.org would be good
[20:31] <stgraber> scrapbunny: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO
[20:32] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: you don't want to try testing 8.04 in production, although it is very valuable in general
[20:34] <ogra> for the classmate interested people, i played a bit with XUL while sitting on trains the last days http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LightBrowser/ :)
[20:34] <scrapbunny> laserjock- since i'm using my lab as thin clients testing is no big, if it totally false I just switch some cables and the computers boot to their windows xp harddrives :)
[20:35] <LaserJock> ah, that's very cool
[20:35] <ogra> yeah
[20:35] <LaserJock> ogra: what is that exactly?
[20:35] <scrapbunny> gotta love having a donated server to play with :)
[20:35] <ogra> LaserJock, a little browser based on xulruner
[20:36] <LaserJock> ogra: that would *so* rock for documentation
[20:36] <ogra> LaserJock, has all firefox features out of the box but uses way less ram, only one win and no tabs
[20:36] <ogra> (can have all ff features i didnt enable many :) )
[20:37] <scrapbunny> ogra- will it handle flash or quicktime sites?
[20:37] <ogra> but its a lot of fun to write apps in :)
[20:37] <ogra> scrapbunny, if the plugins are installed, yes
[20:37] <ogra> it uses all FF plugins ou of the box
[20:37] <ogra> *out
[20:37] <scrapbunny> very cool
[20:38] <ogra> the engine is the same .... only behavior and ui are small :)
[20:38] <ogra> but that cuts down a lot
[20:38] <LaserJock> ogra: will we actually have that for Hardy?
[20:39] <ogra> LaserJock, its no official project, its a spare time thing i started
[20:39] <ogra> but if i manage to get all functions working properly it will go into universe in any case
[20:39] <scrapbunny> as you may remember one of my issues is that i need to be able to run flash internet sites in my lab and my server runs out of cpu too fast with firefox
[20:39] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm just thinking it would be a very nice documentation tool for Hardy
[20:41] <ogra> LaserJock, the fon size thing only exists in the ui yet ... you cant remove bookmarks either and the code is crap and needs to be sanitzed .... f i get that done i'll release it
[20:42] <ogra> (and put it into universe)
[20:42] <ogra> its really hackish atm ... i wrote it in 5h train ride and a boring evening in the hotel
[20:43] <ogra> scrapbunny, there is not much we can do about flash's cpu consumption i fear apart from making gnash better
[20:43] <lns_> That's what I was going to ask..how's gnash dev going?
[20:43] <scrapbunny> on testing did i understand correctly that we need to wait for ltsp to be added to the alternate cd?
[20:44] <ogra> scrapbunny, no, the latest splitted ltsp packages need testing already
[20:44] <ogra> they are already in hardy
[20:44] <ogra> ltspfs is still waiting for some upstream changes but ill come soon
[20:44] <ogra> *will
[20:45] <scrapbunny> this is the site i want to grab things from right? https://iso.qa.stgraber.org/
[20:45] <ogra> ldm is still waiing for me to split out a themes packgae ...
[20:45] <ogra> right usually 3 days before a milestone is released is best to start some testing
[20:46] <ogra> or two days if you dont want to experience the worst bugs :)
[20:47] <ogra> if we build a milestone we usually start shuffling the CDs and clening out bugs for that on monday ... to release it on thursday
[20:47] <ogra> testing during that time is the most valuable one
[20:47] <stgraber> for first Alphas, we usually have the first candidates on Tuesday (Monday when we are lucky), Tuesday evening is just standard testing, Wednesday is where the fixed images are usually built, then testing on Wednesday evening for all the remaining testcases
[20:47] <ogra> since we're all focused and in bugfixing mode :)
[20:48] <stgraber> then published Thursday afternoon
[20:51] <ogra> ... nothing more from my side about tech so far ...
[20:51] <ogra> oh, one thing ...
[20:51] <ogra> i heard from someone who installed in the triple e pc
[20:52] <ogra> it seems to work very well with a normal install
[20:52] <ogra> (it was a question from some weeks ago)
[20:52] <LaserJock> cool
[20:52] <stgraber> cool
[20:53] <ogra> suspend/resume seems to have the same probs as the classmate though
[20:53] <ogra> but since t has a bigger flashdisk a normal instal wors just fine
[20:53] <stgraber> ok, will order one as soon then
[20:53] <ogra> (i really need to work on my typing)
[20:54] <ogra> so thats it for tech
[20:54] <ogra> any other questions ?
[20:54] <RichEd> okay ... LaserJock wanted to jump in on tech if noone else has questions for oliver
[20:55] <stgraber> from my side (iTalc), the one that was recently uploaded has non-working logout/shutdown/reboot
[20:55] <stgraber> I have a new one with that fixed and I'm debugging the demo mode as we speak
[20:55] <scrapbunny> side qustion-is the suspend/resume fixed in the hardy being tested now?
[20:55] <ogra> stgraber, ping me for uploading
[20:55] <stgraber> the LTSP scripts are also working but need some tweaking before being integrated
[20:55] <stgraber> ogra: Just have to solve a bad segfault when entering demo mode ...
[20:55] <ogra> scrapbunny, suspend/resume in which context ?
[20:56] <ogra> stgraber, well, still plenty of development time :)
[20:57] <ogra> and i really count on a better community participation in the future ...
[20:57] <scrapbunny> for standalone laptops. i can't suspend on my dell d600 with 7.10
[20:57] <stgraber> ogra: yes, I'm working on iTalc when I'm getting bored of working on the QA website, but I'm pretty proud of how it currently works, it's far better than what I had at UDS :)
[20:57] <ogra> i wasnt happy about the mail thread today, but it shows something starts to move there
[20:57] <ogra> which is a good thing
[20:57] <ogra> stgraber, you rule !
[20:58]  * ogra cheers for stgraber 
[20:58]  * RichEd adds to the cheer
[20:58] <LaserJock> \o/
[20:58] <LaserJock> ok, so I had 6 things real quick I came up with
[20:58] <RichEd> stgraber: you done ? LaserJock wants to raise a couple of points
[20:58] <stgraber> RichEd: yep
[20:58] <RichEd> couple != 6
[20:58] <LaserJock> they're quick
[20:58] <LaserJock> ;-)
[20:59] <ogra> scrapbunny, did you file bugs ? such things are really very specific to one hardware usually ...
[20:59] <scrapbunny> i think it is hard for people to understand that this is not windows or mac releases after 7 years of testing but a small group of unpaid people
[20:59] <ogra> especially if it comes to laptops
[20:59] <LaserJock> 1) Sugar. jani has been working on getting the Sugar interface working on regular machines. Is that something we'd be interested in?
[20:59] <lns_> fwiw, i can help testing on the EEE pc
[21:00] <RichEd> ogra: as per *that* mail thread ... is just filing a bug visible and helpful enough ? would it be good to have a "user added release notes" wiki page ?
[21:00]  * ogra isnt a bit fan of sugars usability but for the sake of having it in the distro in any case
[21:00] <ogra> *big
[21:00] <ogra> RichEd, for suspend/hibernate on the dell d600 ?
[21:01] <LaserJock> 2) I also talked to jani about squeak
[21:01] <scrapbunny> riched- i think it would be a big help for edubuntu bugs
[21:01] <ogra> scrapbunny, thats not edubuntu relted at all
[21:01] <ogra> *related
[21:01] <RichEd> ogra ... even a one liner for "known issues" is useful ... to read all at a glance ... it just needs to be a topic & link to actual bug report
[21:01] <LaserJock> he'd like to see squeak and etoys updated an in *buntu
[21:01] <ogra> RichEd, it has nothing to d with edubuntu
[21:01] <scrapbunny> i have a hard time finding the right catagory to put my bug reports in
[21:02] <ogra> RichEd, the CD split will make that clearer though
[21:02] <RichEd> ogra: well then we can add a note to say ... ubuntu related ... and deflect bad perceptions ...
[21:02] <RichEd> and also, users could add a bug and say "I need help filing this properly"
[21:02] <ogra> RichEd, i dont work on/ change anything of the ubuntu base in edubuntu
[21:03] <ogra> so suspend hibernate bugs surely dont belong in our release notes
[21:03] <LaserJock> ogra: I don't think people would see that split
[21:03] <LaserJock> I agree that Release Notes is a bit odd
[21:03] <RichEd> but the report comes in from our users and they think it's our issue ... so we can refer to the correct responsible party
[21:03] <ogra> LaserJock, if they have to install ubuntu to get edubuntu ?
[21:04] <LaserJock> but certainly some sort of Errata would be useful
[21:04] <ogra> they will *feel* that split
[21:04] <ogra> not only see it
[21:04] <ogra> they have to use a second CD
[21:04] <scrapbunny> sorry i think my side question on suspend/hibernate is getting confused with the need for an easy place for all edubuntu related bugs to be found and discussed
[21:04] <LaserJock> ogra: yes, in that case it's much better
[21:05] <ogra> scrapbunny, well, usually bugs need to get assigned to packages at some point ... but if you dont know what to file a bug against thats no problem
[21:05] <ogra> first of all filing it is important
[21:06] <ogra> we have a team of bug triagers that goes over them and will try to get the right info out of you to assign it to the right package and people
[21:06] <RichEd> scrapbunny: i also feel the need for a single reference page ... it will also give people confidence if they can read through to look for known issues against their current hardware or intended hardware purchse
[21:07] <ogra> launchpad will subscribe the edubuntu-bugs team to all bugs that are filed on edubuntu related packages
[21:07] <ogra> (we might to check that the list is up to date here, i think that hasnt happened for a while)
[21:08] <LaserJock> I check once in a while
[21:08]  * lns_ agrees with bug/doc/etc consolidation and easier tracking of current issues/information
[21:11] <RichEd> so how many supporters for a "known issues" overview wiki page, listing:
[21:11] <RichEd> a one liner description for each issue
[21:11] <RichEd> a status of whether it has been filed properly in launchpad (with link)
[21:11] <RichEd> a status if the reporting person needs help with proper logging/filing
[21:12] <LaserJock> sounds good
[21:12]  * lns_ raises hand
[21:12] <LaserJock> we might have to work a bit on implementation
[21:12] <ogra> RichEd, how would you judge what goes on that page from the X1000 bugs we get every day in ubuntu ?
[21:12] <LaserJock> basically it should be mapping what we *should* already be doing
[21:12] <RichEd> * note that this will need user input ... it will largely be a self filing system ...
[21:12] <ogra> and who would maintain that
[21:13] <RichEd> ogra: users add their issue ... we scan it weekly before meetings, and redirect problems that are not our own
[21:13] <lns_> Personally, I really like LP, I just think it could use an overhaul for user-friendliness
[21:13] <michalski> somebody who doesnt have a life :P
[21:13] <RichEd> it will be good for communications with our community
[21:14] <RichEd> and also it would be nice if we could find someone to monitor the mailing lists for issues ...
[21:14] <ogra> RichEd, i disagree here LP should be the too to handle bugs ... we should see that we get it straight there
[21:14] <LaserJock> RichEd: I don't think it should be filled by users
[21:14] <michalski> spamming isues
[21:15] <LaserJock> what we *do* need is a list of high impact bugs that we have workarounds or upcoming fixes
[21:15] <LaserJock> it's about us giving info to users not users giving us info
[21:15] <LaserJock> we should be getting bug info from Launchpad
[21:15] <ogra> right
[21:15] <michalski> laserjock: good idea
[21:15] <RichEd> question: do all of our users scan launchpad for bugs before an upgrade or install ?
[21:15] <ogra> we used to do that for milestones in the past
[21:15] <LaserJock> RichEd: hahaha
[21:15] <LaserJock> I don't think most developers do that
[21:16]  * ogra does that the end of the week week before a milestone week usually
[21:16] <michalski> riched: i sure hope they dont scan every bug in launchpad
[21:16] <lns_> My problem with LP is that it's too 'flat' when searching for things... bug status, importance, there's hardly any sorting/filtering mechanisms and it makes it really hard to actually get to relevant information
[21:17] <michalski> ins: what do you mean?
[21:17] <lns_> the search function is ok but compared to others i've seen it could use much improvement
[21:17] <RichEd> LaserJock: so would it not be useful to have a wiki page where someone can add ... installing 7.10 on my ***PC would not suspend/ resume
[21:17] <ogra> lns_, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?advanced=1 thats not enough fuctions ?
[21:17] <michalski> yes, but we dont want the wiki filling up with bug reports
[21:17] <lns_> michalski, basically when i go to launchpad and look for issues (related to problems i'm having) i'm not confident at all that i've successfully parsed all information correctly
[21:18] <michalski> what exactly makes you unconfident?
[21:18] <LaserJock> RichEd: no
[21:18] <LaserJock> RichEd: that's what bug reporting is for
[21:18] <michalski> and theres also the ubuntu forums for bugs and stuff
[21:18] <ogra> RichEd, it totally wouldnt be useful to hide the bugs from the devs that way ...
[21:19] <lns_> ogra, i didn't see that before - but that seems like TOO much to go through - you lose the forest in the trees so to speak
[21:19] <ogra> and we shouldnt do the work of the triage team either
[21:19]  * RichEd sits down and defers
[21:19] <ogra> RichEd, we have a team for assigning them to the right people so i dont think we should go over them ever meeting
[21:19] <michalski> ogra, we could try to impliment an automatic triage system?
[21:20] <lns_> michalski, because there is too much information when you browse through things, you're not always sure which package you're supposed to be looking at when searching bugs, or if people who filed similar bugs put the right package in, etc
[21:20] <ogra> we could see that the edubuntu-bugs teamlist is properly up to date
[21:20] <ogra> i'm pretty sure we can get bugstats for that automatically on a weekly base
[21:20] <RichEd> ogra: a final comment from me ... my intention was for a user "pre-install warning" page ... not the fix part of the problem ... that should take the established route
[21:20] <LaserJock> RichEd: The usefulness, as I said, of such a page would be to alert users of big issues
[21:20] <michalski> ins: hmmm....
[21:21] <LaserJock> RichEd: right, but it's gotta come from us to them, not them to us
[21:21]  * LaserJock realizes he's created a big "us" and "them" there ;-)
[21:21] <ogra> heh
[21:22] <RichEd> LaserJock: we do have cases where people scream in the channel or mail list ... your 7.10 broke my whatsit ... and they do not file and log anything ... they just leave in a noisy sulk ... lp bug report is a schlep to them ...
[21:22] <RichEd> so a "add your whinge here" wiki page is low effort
[21:23] <michalski> lol not good for public image :P
[21:23] <LaserJock> RichEd: no, we should take that an create a proper "entry" for that
[21:23] <ogra> it has nothing t do with public image it braes the developer workflow
[21:23] <LaserJock> we shouldn't have just complaints
[21:23] <ogra> *brakes
[21:24] <ogra> having bugs on mailing lists, forums, wikis is a wrong approach
[21:24] <LaserJock> we want "this is what is broken and this is how it's getting dealt with" and that should come from developers
[21:24] <lns_> What i see is a bunch of great facilities for getting help/bug reports, but they are all fragmented and disconnected, so everything basically means nothing to someone - they don't know where to look, and it's too frustrating to try and search through every medium
[21:24] <ogra> the only thig where they belong is a bugtracker
[21:24] <ogra> thats the only way to get them in the attention of developers
[21:24] <michalski> ogra: i agree
[21:25] <ogra> as soon as a user thinks his bug is taken care of because he whined about it on a wikipage or forum entry without filing a bug you have lst
[21:25] <ogra> *lost
[21:25] <lns_> ogra, i agree that the bugtracker NEEDS to be THE central focal point for getting issues resolved
[21:25] <michalski> we could have those taking care of the wiki and forums to "recommend" that they go to the bug section
[21:26] <ogra> michalski, righ, thats the right way
[21:26] <LaserJock> so the policy like on -motu when somebody complains is to point them to Launchpad in a nice way
[21:26] <michalski> i hope that wasnt sarcasm im new :S
[21:26] <ogra> right
[21:26] <ogra> michalski, nope, that wasnt sarcasm :)
[21:26] <michalski> ok :)
[21:27] <Tm_T> agreed, bugs in launchpad, impossible to track them otherwise
[21:27] <ogra> we might have a better guide for users to use LP though ...
[21:27] <michalski> ins: at least if all the bugs are in a central location, they get fixed eventually
[21:27] <ogra> and as i said, having regular automated reports with bugstats for edu related packages
[21:27] <lns_> michalski, exactly
[21:28] <LaserJock> ogra: agreed
[21:28] <michalski> sorry have to go eat supper, bye
[21:28] <LaserJock> I think pretty much everything brought up by the ML thread can be fixed without new processes
[21:28] <LaserJock> it's a matter of documentation and communication
[21:28] <lns_> It would be so cool to have an easier to 'drill down' interface in LP
[21:29] <LaserJock> lns_: that's something that can be worked on and documented
[21:29] <LaserJock> it's difficult to change the interface sometimes, but there can certainly be a guide on how to get things done
[21:29] <ogra> lns_, beyond that you can file whishlist bugs against LP *in* LP :)
[21:29] <lns_> oh cool
[21:29] <lns_> wasn't aware of that ;)
[21:31] <ogra> anyway, i'd ike to close tech now to leave RichEd still some time for community  ....
[21:31] <ogra> we're at 90min already
[21:31] <RichEd> LaserJock: are you finished with your 6 points ?
[21:32] <ogra> RichEd, oh, i think we came to 1 :) and then te bug discussion started
 2) I also talked to jani about squeak
[21:32] <RichEd> LaserJock: go on then ... i'll need 15 mins or so ...
[21:32] <ogra> that got swallowed in the discussion
[21:33] <LaserJock> ok
[21:33] <LaserJock> so we already have a plan for squeak
[21:33] <LaserJock> I'll try to get that going
[21:33] <ogra> great :)
[21:33] <LaserJock> but he also wanted etoys
[21:33]  * ogra needs to look up what that is
[21:33] <LaserJock> I think it uses squeak perhaps
[21:33] <ogra> hmm
[21:33] <LaserJock> also there are some other edu stuff that uses squeak
[21:33] <ogra> google isnt helpful
[21:34] <ogra> (got me to a shopping site)
[21:34] <scrapbunny> i know that the XO laptop will have etoys, that's all i know about it :)
[21:34] <LaserJock> right
[21:34] <ogra> ah, yeah it uses squeak
[21:34] <LaserJock> I'm pulling up my convo with him now
[21:35] <LaserJock> there's also croquet and seaside
[21:35] <LaserJock> anyway
[21:35] <ogra> do you know if he's aware that we'll never have arm support ?
[21:35] <LaserJock> for?
[21:35] <ogra> OLPC
[21:35] <LaserJock> I have no idea
[21:35] <ogra> so having all the apps in is a bit pointless ...
[21:35] <ogra> but i dont object it indeed
[21:36] <LaserJock> anyway, I was kinda wondering if we can have a little squeak set for people
[21:36] <ogra> the OLPC laptop is arm based ... ubuntu doesnt and will not support arm
[21:36] <LaserJock> I have no idea how useful it'd be and obviously we can't ship it
[21:36] <mjg59`> ogra: ?
[21:36] <mjg59`> ogra: It's x86
[21:36] <ogra> mjg59`, OLPC ?
[21:36] <mjg59`> Yes
[21:36] <ogra> since when ?
[21:36] <mjg59`> Since forever
[21:37] <ogra> the last time i saw it it was arm they told me ...
[21:37] <mjg59`> No
[21:37] <ogra> hrm
[21:37] <mjg59`> It's Geode, which is embedded x86
[21:37] <ogra> yay for good information ressources
[21:37]  * ogra takes that back then 
[21:37] <mjg59`> However, it doesn't have a standard BIOS, so the default Ubuntu won't install
[21:40] <ogra> LaserJock, who would create such a set ?
[21:40] <LaserJock> umm ....
[21:40]  * LaserJock looks around
[21:40]  * somerville32 is here now.
[21:40] <ogra> we need squeak enthusiasts
[21:40] <LaserJock> if the squeak upstream guys have it
[21:40] <LaserJock> then it should be easy
[21:40] <ogra> do they ?
[21:40] <LaserJock> I just wondered if that'd be a good selling point
[21:40]  * ogra cant remember
[21:41] <LaserJock> I'm not sure about etoys, but I think I've seen seaside and croquet packges floating around
[21:41] <LaserJock> my squeak work back in dapper produced a lot of bug reports
[21:41] <scrapbunny> they even have some apps for you to install on the xo, http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/software-and-interface.php#Download
[21:41] <LaserJock> *somebody* must be using it
[21:41] <ogra> well, if there is an rpm there sureyl is an upstream tarball of etoys
[21:42] <LaserJock> ok, well I just wanted to point that out
[21:42] <Burgundavia> upstream git
[21:42] <Burgundavia> at the very least
[21:42] <Burgundavia> I don't know and haven't seen tarballs and I think Jani is building out of upstream git
[21:42]  * ogra remembers there was a german company that uses squeak a lot they offered help once ... i have t look up the contacts ... 
[21:43] <LaserJock> 3) dynamic menus
[21:43] <LaserJock> I'm pretty blocked here
[21:43] <ogra> Burgundavia, jani builds it ?
[21:43] <LaserJock> basically we've got to think of a different way to do dynamic menus
[21:43] <ogra> then it should be straightforward to get it in
[21:43] <Burgundavia> ogra: I think he does, he has most of the other OLPC stuff
[21:43] <LaserJock> or convince gnome, fd.org to make it possible
[21:43] <Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/~sugar/+archive
[21:43] <Burgundavia> maybe not
[21:45] <ogra> LaserJock, got any suggestions for a solution from the gnome side ?
[21:45] <LaserJock> well
[21:45] <ogra> if they think their current spec suffices they should be able to point out a solution
[21:45] <LaserJock> part of the problem, as I understand it, is that gnome doesn't properly implement the XDG spec
[21:46] <ogra> then we need to make them fix it (or do that ourselves *sigh*)
[21:46] <LaserJock> my understanding is that you should be able to "stack" the XDG_CONFIG_DIRS paths
[21:46] <LaserJock> like you would with PATH
[21:46] <ogra> and that doesnt work ?
[21:46] <LaserJock> so we should be able to set XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=/etc/xdg/:/usr/share/edubuntu-menus/
[21:46] <LaserJock> however, Gnome will only take the first one
[21:47] <ogra> so lets fix that or make them fix it
[21:47] <ogra> that seems to be the only opion
[21:47] <LaserJock> so the essential problem
[21:47] <LaserJock> is that right now we are moving XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to our own directory
[21:48] <LaserJock> before say Feisty, that directory was only used for menus, so everything was good
[21:48] <LaserJock> but now it's used for much more, like autostart stuff
[21:48] <LaserJock> so we break everything if we redirect
[21:48] <ogra> right
[21:48] <ogra> its not the right approach anymore
[21:49] <ogra> we need the above fixed
[21:49] <LaserJock> so my idea would be that if you can stack the config dirs
[21:49] <LaserJock> it should look for the menu *first* in /usr/share/edubuntu-menus
[21:50] <LaserJock> I believe this is how KDE does it, from what aaron segio said in Paris
[21:50] <ogra> you can flip the values (or jus prepend the edu dir)
[21:50] <ogra> yeah
[21:50] <LaserJock> so, how should I proceed?
[21:50] <ogra> poke for a fix
[21:50] <LaserJock> shall I talk to seb or gnome directly or ...?
[21:50] <ogra> if there is no reaction, pkoe me
[21:51] <ogra> either should be fine
[21:51] <ogra> seb will forward it
[21:51] <LaserJock> ok,
[21:51] <LaserJock> the last thing of relevance that I had was, do we have an idea of what apps we want to ship?
[21:52] <LaserJock> I would like to make some changes to the edu apps
[21:52] <LaserJock> but do we have a plan somewhere?
[21:52] <ogra> i guess file a list with suggestions to the ML is best
[21:52] <ogra> i didnt have a specific plan beyond whats in the live desktop atm
[21:53] <LaserJock> I want to get rid of rasmol
[21:53] <LaserJock> will dropping it from the seed be enough to get it demoted?
[21:53] <ogra> drop to universe `
[21:53] <ogra> ?
[21:54] <ogra> yeah thats enough
[21:54] <LaserJock> yeah, it's just too old and I'm finding better apps
[21:54] <ogra> its only on the addon seed
[21:54]  * ogra has to vanish at 11 (in 7 min) 
[21:54] <LaserJock> ok, I'm done
[21:54] <RichEd> okay ... me gives a quick overview of 2 plans in action for community
[21:54] <RichEd> #1 volunteer uptake process
[21:55] <somerville32> \o/
[21:55]  * RichEd will cut & paste to save time, but essentially I'd like people to check out the wiki pages
[21:55] <RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/VolunteerUptakeProcess
[21:55] <RichEd> <paste warning>
[21:55] <RichEd> People pop up in #edubuntu, say they would be keen to help, but often do not get engaged.
[21:55] <RichEd> We recognise that a better volunteer structure and uptake/introduction process would make a difference here.
[21:55] <RichEd> What also happens is that the person who offers to help is usually in the channel to get a solution to a particular problem. Often they get back to their daily issues once they resolve their issue, and do not "come back" to carry thought their offer of help.
[21:55] <RichEd> We ourselves are busy (with work or travel) and usually do not get the time to hold their hand and lead them to the right place.
[21:55] <RichEd> We are sorting out a process which will allow us to easily kick an intro email to them for later response, and have also come up with the volunteer position of "Edubuntu Ambassador" ... who will be an individual with the role of performing introductions and giving guidance to match volunteer skill and time availability to a decent work effort.
[21:55] <RichEd> JonathanCarter is the first EdubuntuAmbassador, who will help to shape the role so it can easily be transferred to successors.
[21:55] <RichEd> ---
[21:56] <RichEd> so if you look at the wiki page, you will see a questionnaire we have sent out (once thus far to somerville32)
[21:56] <RichEd> please check to see if you have added questions / comments
[21:57] <RichEd> we'll refine the mail questionnaire into a web form when we have it reviewed
[21:57] <RichEd> and add the web form URL to the channel topic here
[21:57] <RichEd> --- make sense ? ---
[21:57] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm still skeptical :-)
[21:58] <RichEd> LaserJock: add comments to the page, we'll bounce this around over the next few weeks
[21:58] <RichEd> #2 Launchpad Education Groups Policy
[21:58] <RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/Launchpad/Groups/Policy
[21:58] <LaserJock> I think it's kinda covering symptoms without addressing the real issue
[21:59] <RichEd> we've agreed over the past few weeks that there are dead & overlap education groups in launchpad
[21:59] <RichEd> leads to fragmentation & dead ends for new users
[21:59] <RichEd> so we discussed a "policy for launchpad education groups" and will ask the existing groups to comply, or be pruned / absorbed
[22:00] <RichEd> before we take decisive action, i'd like the community to agree that the "policy" is reasonable
[22:00] <RichEd> see the wiki page for full details but there are 3 main points:
[22:00] <RichEd> 1. Group Description is Useful
[22:00] <RichEd>  * All groups must have a useful description in their overview
[22:00] <RichEd> 2. Team Owner is Contactable
[22:00] <RichEd>  * The Team Owner for a group must have a working contact address in their launchpad profile
[22:00] <RichEd> 3. Group Overview Ubuntu Wiki Page
[22:00] <RichEd>  * All Groups must have an overview Ubuntu Wiki Page
[22:01] <RichEd> i will mail a link to that page, and the reason for the prune exercise to all existing group owners
[22:01] <LaserJock> hmm, it's not bad, but again seems like a bandaid
[22:02] <RichEd> we'll give them until the end of jan to get with the program, and then discuss pruning in the meeting
[22:02] <RichEd> LaserJock: it's a tidy up so that our renewed efforts in the new year are not lost in the ether
[22:02] <LaserJock> I guess I wonder if this policy is necessary
[22:02] <LaserJock> have any other *buntu teams done something like this?
[22:03] <LaserJock> I don't think anybody has as big a problem as we do with LP team, that might make the difference
[22:03] <RichEd> here are the reasons we discussed previously:
[22:03] <RichEd> There is little point to many fragmented and/or inactive groups, as new people join, and can get frustrated or disappointed by lack of interaction.
[22:03] <RichEd> Less groups, less members, more meaningful activities would be a good target.
[22:04] <RichEd> LaserJock: our community is (currently so small) that it does not help having 15 groups with one active member in each
[22:04] <RichEd> all 15 would fit in one group and get more done :)
[22:04] <LaserJock> right
[22:04] <RichEd> ---
[22:04] <Tm_T> too much splitting is harmful
[22:04] <RichEd> anyway ... both of the above are a start and a suggestion
[22:04] <LaserJock> but perhaps focusing on activating the ones we *do* want makes more sense
[22:05] <LaserJock> just a thought
[22:05] <RichEd> LaserJock: indeedly good sir ... cull the dead ends ... energise the survivors
[22:05] <LaserJock> RichEd: it's a good wiki page though
[22:05] <RichEd> please add comments / sugggestions to the page
[22:06]  * RichEd notes that we have run out of time ... and it is now officially thursday where I sit
[22:06]  * RichEd thanks *all* for a good meeting ... much more people ... much more interaction
[22:06]  * lns_ claps
[22:06] <LaserJock> yes, lots of fun
[22:06] <somerville32> :)
[22:06] <RichEd> let's give it a good go next week ... then a week's rest ... and hit 2008 running
[22:06] <scrapbunny> thank you for include newbies like me in the process :)
[22:07] <RichEd> scrapbunny: we love all people who love edubuntu :)
[22:07] <RichEd> going once ....
[22:07] <RichEd> going twice ?
[22:07] <RichEd> BONG .., thanks all
[22:07] <RichEd> 12h00UTC next wednesday ... same place
[22:07] <lns_> ty RichEd
[22:08] <scrapbunny> one last question- which hardy should i download for testing? i need ltsp and
[22:08] <LaserJock> right now Edubuntu
[22:09] <scrapbunny> the one from here?
[22:09] <scrapbunny> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/current/
[22:09]  * RichEd waves goodnight
[22:10]  * lns_ scavenges for left over brownies
[22:11] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: no, not the live one
[22:11] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: you want from daily/
[22:12] <scrapbunny> thanks, i see the server one now
[22:14] <scrapbunny> so is the split ogra was talking about were we would install ubuntu alternate plus the edubuntu-desktop for the 8.10 release then?
[22:14] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: you would install ubuntu alternate and then the edubuntu disc
[22:15] <LaserJock> which would have edubuntu-desktop and whatever other goodies we want
[22:15] <LaserJock> or you could install it from the net as well if you want
[22:15] <LaserJock> just as now
[22:17] <scrapbunny> i just thought there would no longer be a test edubuntu cd from what ogra said, only ubuntu alternate
[22:17] <LaserJock> no
[22:18] <LaserJock> Edubuntu will still produce a CD
[22:18] <LaserJock> but it will be an addon CD
[22:18] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: you know how now you have the Classroom Server CD and Classroom Server Addon CD?
[22:18] <scrapbunny> right
[22:19] <LaserJock> basically we're going to be using the Ubuntu Alternate disc instead of the Classroom Server CD
[22:20] <scrapbunny> that was what i was thinking so it surpriced me that the testing site is still the classroom server and addon
[22:21] <LaserJock> well, we haven't done the split yet :-)
[22:22] <scrapbunny> well thank you soooo much for all the help as always. i am going to burn the current classroom server image and test it out friday
[22:23] <LaserJock> scrapbunny: awesome, thanks a ton
[22:24] <scrapbunny> hope everyone has a great night
[22:51] <txwikinger> @schedule
[22:51] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
[22:54]  * Tm_T pulls his pants up
[22:54]  * mhb wakes up
[22:57]  * X314 puts on a fresh pot of coffee
[22:57] <ardchoille> X314: Thank you :)
[22:58] <X314> ardchoille: well genii is not here yet so someone has to do the job ;)
[22:58] <ardchoille> hehe
[22:58] <cheguevara> there :P
[22:59] <ardchoille> hi genii
[22:59] <genii> Hello ardchoille :)
[22:59] <dthacker-laptop> ooo coffee, back in a pflash
[22:59] <Tm_T> someone should ship some coffee to me too
[22:59] <X314> genii: the coffee pot is on and so am I ^^
[23:00] <Tm_T> and cocacola
[23:00]  * genii grabs one of X314's coffees
[23:00] <genii> Pretty quiet for a meeting supposedly going on
[23:01] <Riddell> Good Evening Friends
[23:01] <ardchoille> hi Riddell
[23:01] <Riddell> I don't think we have a quorum council
[23:01] <txwikinger> hi Riddell
[23:01] <mhb> good evening to all
[23:01] <kwwii> hi
[23:01] <Riddell> naughty council members, they'll just have to review the logs
[23:01] <dthacker-laptop> hello all
[23:01] <Tm_T> Riddell: heh
[23:01] <Tm_T> look, I'm here o/
[23:02] <Tm_T> not happening too often, I'd say
[23:02] <Riddell> So, a mostly empty agenda https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[23:02] <Riddell> any comments on RC 2?
[23:02] <Tm_T> KDE4 that is?
[23:02] <Riddell> ye
[23:02] <Riddell> yes
[23:03] <Tm_T> shame I can't help with that, living with svn :(
[23:03] <Riddell> someone on the mailing list was saying it broke his ~/.kde
[23:03] <Riddell> which it curious
[23:03] <sub[t]rnl> the plasma or kmenu bar just felt clunky to me.  Other than seemed ok.
[23:04] <Riddell> sub[t]rnl: be thankful it works, which is more than rc 1 had :)
[23:04] <Tm_T> my svn build seems to use software acceleration, don't know why
[23:04] <sub[t]rnl> hehe, agreed
[23:04] <Tm_T> only issue I can think of right now
[23:04] <Riddell> possibly good news (except for our sysadmins) was that the Kubuntu live CD managed to max out the data centre link for the websites
[23:04] <Riddell> appologies to the sysadmins for that and thanks for working around it
[23:04] <dthacker-laptop> hehe.
[23:05] <kwwii> Riddell: I'll do a test install tomorrow, if anything is borken I seem to be the one it breaks on
[23:05] <Riddell> ok, anyone here for membership?
[23:05] <ardchoille> I am
[23:05] <Riddell> ardchoille: could you introduce yourself
[23:05] <felipe> woohoo!
[23:05] <ardchoille> Hi, my name is Ian MacGregor and I use the nick ardchoille online. My wiki page is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ardchoille2
[23:06] <ardchoille> I have been using, and loving, Ubuntu/Kubuntu for years.
[23:06] <genii> Will kde4 install to .kde if none yet or .kde4 ?
[23:06] <Riddell> ardchoille: what have you contributed to Kubuntu?
[23:07] <ardchoille> For the past few years I have volunteered my time in #ubuntu, #kubuntu, and other channels, and have also provided support on the Ubuntu Forums, submitted bugs to launchpad, and edited the Ubuntu Wiki and Ubuntu Documentation.
[23:07] <ardchoille> I spend a lot of time promoting Ubuntu/Kubuntu and have helped many people in my area switch to Ubuntu since 2003.
[23:07] <Riddell> "helped over 200 people and businesses in my area switch" that's a lot
[23:08] <Riddell> how do you go about that?
[23:08]  * sub[t]rnl cheers
[23:08] <ardchoille> I enjoy it
[23:08] <ardchoille> Mainly through friends who help spread the word
[23:09] <dthacker-laptop> ardchoille helps a lot in #kubuntu, including me more than once.
[23:09] <ardchoille> Word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool
[23:09] <kwwii> anyone else know ardchoille here?
[23:09] <tomaw> I do
[23:09] <sub[t]rnl> I do
[23:09] <Tm_T> I do well
[23:09] <felipe> meee!
[23:09] <Tm_T> ardchoille <3
[23:09] <X314> I do
[23:09] <stdin> me too :)
[23:09] <cheguevara> i do
[23:09] <felipe> lol
[23:09] <ardchoille> omg
[23:09] <sub[t]rnl> He's extremely helpful, and always goes out of his way to help people
[23:09] <genii> I do
[23:10] <stdin> he helps take the load off my shoulders :p
[23:10] <sub[t]rnl> hehe
[23:10] <Tm_T> and mine
[23:10] <Riddell> stdin: which load?
[23:10] <stdin> Riddell: support in #kubuntu
[23:10] <genii> Very helpful and civil to even the most frustrating users
[23:10] <stdin> Riddell: and helps keep it "on topic"
[23:10] <tomaw> He is indeed very patient
[23:11] <Riddell> keeping #kubuntu on topic?  now that is impressive :)
[23:11] <Tm_T> I can only agree with brothers here
[23:11] <Riddell> ardchoille: what plans for the future?
[23:11] <Riddell> ardchoille: you mention you want to help with packaging?
[23:11] <ardchoille> I plan to continue providing the help and support for Ubuntu/Kubuntu that I have provided for the past few years. Eventually I would like to become a packager and I evetually would like to set up a LoCo Team for Seattle, WA..
[23:12] <ardchoille> Riddell: ye, very much so
[23:12] <Riddell> ardchoille: planning to come to the Kubuntu Tutorials Day?
[23:12] <ardchoille> Riddell: Indeed :)
[23:12] <Riddell> kwwii: any more questions?
[23:12] <nixternal> whoa, didn't know there was a meeting going on :)
[23:12] <nosrednaekim> me neither...
[23:12] <Tm_T> nixternal: muh
[23:12] <Riddell> ah, nixternal, we have quorum
[23:13] <Riddell> nixternal: any questions for ardchoille
[23:13] <kwwii> Riddell: nope, seems like enough info for me
[23:13] <nixternal> hrmm
[23:13] <kwwii> give him a minute to read the log
[23:13] <stdin> I'm sure you can think of something nixternal :)
[23:13] <nixternal> reading wiki page really quick
[23:13] <dthacker-laptop> "what is the flying time of an unladen European swallow....?"
[23:14] <ardchoille> hehe
[23:14] <ardchoille> dthacker-laptop: with or without a coconut in tow?
[23:14] <dthacker-laptop> :)
[23:14] <Riddell> nixternal: you could ask him why a person of the Clan MacGregor would use the sassenach spelling of Iain :)
[23:14] <nixternal> lol
[23:14] <nixternal> I just read that on his wiki page :p
[23:15] <nixternal> ardchoille: don't know if this was asked, I didn't see it...what are your future goals with Kubuntu? What does the Kubuntu Membership mean to you?
[23:15]  * nixternal smells pasta
[23:15] <Tm_T> nixternal: it's my shoes
[23:16] <ardchoille> I plan to continue providing the help and support for Ubuntu/Kubuntu that I have provided for the past few years. Eventually I would like to become a packager and set up a LoCo Team for Seattle, WA..
[23:16] <nixternal> you have garlicy feet
[23:16] <ardchoille> Ubuntu membership mens, to me, that I feel recognised for my contributions and feel "a part" of the community
[23:16] <nixternal> would your #1 goal for a loco in seattle to storm camp lake washington and debug that area? :D
[23:16] <ardchoille> I wish!
[23:17] <nixternal> hey, I at least mooned camp gates :)
[23:17] <nixternal> have you done any packaging yet?
[23:17] <ardchoille> nixternal: I feel it's better to conquer them with good software ;)
[23:18] <felipe> yes, you kmoon them
[23:18] <ardchoille> nixternal: I have created a few packages for my own use, but I would like to learn proper packaging for the repos
[23:18] <ardchoille> felipe: lol
[23:18] <nixternal> how about helping with bug triage? how familiar are you, or better yet, how comfortable are you with triaging bugs?
[23:19] <ardchoille> nixternal: That's another thing I wish to learn, haven't done it yet.
[23:19] <Riddell> time to vote
[23:19]  * ardchoille votes for self
[23:19] <Riddell> +1 from me for lots of supporters and number of converts
[23:19] <Tm_T> :)
[23:20] <Riddell> kwwii? nixternal?
[23:20] <nixternal> one sec, running a grep and word count :p
[23:20] <mhb> hang around in #kubuntu-devel more so we get to know you better :o)
[23:20] <kwwii> +1
[23:20] <ardchoille> Will do
[23:20] <nixternal> hahaha, forget that, locked up the server
[23:20] <nixternal> +1 from me as well
[23:20] <cheguevara> lol
[23:21] <Tm_T> nixternal: locked yourself in I hope
[23:21] <Riddell> welcome to membership of Ubuntu and Kubuntu ardchoille
[23:21] <nixternal> 5232
[23:21] <Tm_T> ardchoille: yay!
[23:21] <sub[t]rnl> Grats ardchoille
[23:21] <sub[t]rnl> :D
[23:21] <ardchoille> Riddell: W00T! Thanks
[23:21] <cheguevara> congrats
[23:21] <Tm_T> Riddell: poke me when it's my turn if ever
[23:21] <Riddell> any more memberships?
[23:21] <X314> congratuwelldone ardchoille !
[23:21] <claydoh> congrats ardchoille!
[23:21] <ardchoille> And thank you all for your wonderful support :)
[23:21] <Riddell> Tm_T: go go
[23:21] <nixternal> that's pretty good! good job and congrats ardchoille, welcome to our small, yet disfunctional, however very loving, family! :p
[23:21]  * nosrednaekim notes that w00t is the word of the year and pats ardchoille on the back
[23:21] <Tm_T> Riddell: okie
[23:21] <kwwii> congrats ardchoille
[23:21] <felipe> congrats
[23:21] <felipe> :)
[23:22] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: you seen that on MSNBC or whatever? w00t is the word of the year...how silly
[23:22] <mhb> congratulations
[23:22]  * Tm_T is Jussi Kekkonen, https://launchpad.net/~tmt
[23:22]  * genii hands ardchoille a congratulatory coffee
[23:22] <Tm_T> and want to become Kubuntu member
[23:22] <nixternal> what?!? another person who I thought was already a member
[23:22] <nixternal> -1 :p
[23:22] <Tm_T> yup
[23:22] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: even worse....slashdot
[23:22] <nixternal> keep on rockin' homeskillet
[23:22] <Riddell> Tm_T: do you have a wiki page?
[23:23] <nixternal> and LP page please
[23:23] <Tm_T> Riddell: I do, sorry I'm in a bit mess currently here, in a moment
[23:23] <cheguevara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiKekkonen
[23:23] <kwwii> Tm_T: although i've talked to you quite a bit I honestly have no idea what you do :D Could you explain shortly?
[23:23] <nixternal> el che to the rescue!
[23:23] <Tm_T> https://launchpad.net/~tmt  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiKekkonen
[23:23] <Tm_T> cheguevara: :)
[23:23] <cheguevara> :P
[23:24] <tomaw> ardchoille: congrats :)
[23:24] <Tm_T> I mostly been in irc, for support, IRC op, upstream testing, random develop ranting, advocating, converting etc etc
[23:24] <ardchoille> tomaw: ty :)
[23:24] <nixternal> No karma has yet been assigned to Jussi Kekkonen. Karma is updated daily    :(
[23:24] <Tm_T> also our loco faces
[23:24] <Riddell> Tm_T: what activities does the Finnish Loco team do?
[23:24] <nixternal> Tm_T: time to start rockin' on some triage homey...you been around long enough :)
[23:24] <genii> triage sounds interesting
[23:25] <nixternal> ya, it is something I haven't done in a while myself
[23:25] <X314> generall nonrelated to Tm_T question. is there a way to contribute to the comunity if your a rubbishcan at coding and cant really draw artworks and such?
[23:25] <Tm_T> nixternal: should, somehow I fail to do so except with upstream :p
[23:25] <nixternal> X314: most definitely, I am living proof...all I do is poke fun :)
[23:25] <cheguevara> lol
[23:25] <nosrednaekim> X314: do user support.
[23:25] <Tm_T> Riddell: translation, support, spreading (including our parliament) and lots
[23:25] <nixternal> #kubuntu definitely needs as much help as possible
[23:26] <Riddell> does anyone have testimonies for Tm_T?
[23:26] <ardchoille> I do
[23:26]  * cheguevara been around irc to little
[23:26] <nixternal> oh man, don't tell me where are Tm_T's only friends :)
[23:26] <X314> nosrednaekim: well.. helping someone else you'd kinda have to know what you yourself are doing..
[23:26]  * dthacker-laptop notes that he is behind on the monthly report, but is on the mailing list and is logging the devel channel, so he will start populating this weekend. I'll read the logs tommorrow between tutorials. cya
[23:26] <ardchoille> I have been in #kubuntu for a long while and have seen Tm_T help others. And has helped me many times.
[23:26] <nixternal> Tm_T: MOTU plans at all? How can you help Kubuntu to be the best?
[23:27] <stdin> he's always helping out in #kubuntu and is the boss in -offtopic
[23:27] <nixternal> no doubt
[23:27] <sub[t]rnl> I can second Tm_T's helping
[23:27] <kwwii> I think that bug triaging is actually something that almost anyone could do with a little bit of time and experience asking the right questions to the right people
[23:27] <X314> I have seen Tm_T help people and think he has helped me with some minor issues.. though I am a bit of a new one around here
[23:28] <Riddell> Tm_T: how active is #kubuntu-offtopic?
[23:28] <nixternal> Riddell: annoyingly active :)
[23:28] <Tm_T> Riddell: sometimes very, but quite similar to #kubuntu
[23:28] <kwwii> indeed, all of my contact with him has been productive and a joy to talk to
[23:28] <stdin> sporadic activity
[23:28] <Tm_T> nixternal: plans, though failed thus far, I am trying to see Kubuntu as the best for average joe, thats why I like me being between users, upstream and Kubuntu as distro
[23:28] <genii> Yes, sporadic
[23:28] <X314> well.. its more freetalk but very often support talk in -offtopic i would say
[23:29] <Riddell> that's pretty much the point of it
[23:29] <nixternal> Tm_T: how have they failed? how can we help you to not fail with your future plans? and how can you help us not fail with our future plans?
[23:29] <genii> X314: definitely
[23:29] <Tm_T> my main plans though is in Kids Office, but thats long future (and goes with Kubuntu well)
[23:29] <X314> genii: more coffee too.
[23:29]  * genii puts another pot of coffee on
[23:29] <Tm_T> nixternal: my health is bit issue, so I don't always can do much myself, but always like to help where can
[23:30] <nixternal> and I can attest to you helping out a ton, so that is always good :)
[23:30] <Tm_T> nixternal: also I afraid to take responsibility because of that
[23:30] <nixternal> plus, if I didn't ask some tough questions, then I wouldn't look good :)
[23:30] <Tm_T> haha
[23:30] <Tm_T> true
[23:30] <Riddell> kwwii, nixternal, shall we vote?
[23:30] <kwwii> sure
[23:31] <Riddell> +1 for testimony on user support
[23:31] <ardchoille> +1 from me for active support
[23:31] <Riddell> but lets get that karma up! :)
[23:31] <nixternal> Tm_T: very much understood, but seeing as you have made us aware of your condition, I think you should feel safe taking on some responsibility, and let us help you with it and not worry about it so much...you have other things to worry about :)
[23:31] <kwwii> +1 from me, he's a nice guy :-)
[23:31] <nixternal> oh definitely +1 from me... Tm_T has been rockin' for quite a bit
[23:31] <Tm_T> nixternal: thanks, appreciate it :)
[23:31] <Riddell> congratulations, and welcome Tm_T
[23:31] <cheguevara> congrats Tm_T
[23:31] <ardchoille> congrats Tm_T
[23:32] <Riddell> any other business?
[23:32] <Tm_T> Riddell: thanks, as I have said ofren, karma should get raised from irc too :-P
[23:32]  * stdin w00ts for Tm_T
[23:32] <nixternal> congrats Tm_T and welcome to the disfunctional family, well you know the rest, you been around long enough :p
[23:32] <nixternal> w00t :)
[23:32] <Tm_T> nixternal: indeed
[23:32] <genii> Riddell: I dunno if qualifies as business but is anything being done about a gui web control panel to replace webmin? If so what stage at now, etc
[23:33] <nixternal> anymore members? I have to head to that eternal place of education :)
[23:33] <Riddell> genii: -> #ubuntu-server
[23:33] <Tm_T> nixternal: sleep?
[23:33] <genii> Riddell: Ah, OK thanks
[23:33] <Tm_T> nixternal: or uni
[23:33] <Riddell> please pimp up Kubuntu Tutorials Day wherever you can
[23:33] <nixternal> no, uni unfortunately
[23:33] <nixternal> Riddell: I will be around all day for the tutorials day btw...no class tomorrow :)
[23:33] <claydoh> congrats Tm_T!
[23:33] <Riddell> it all kicks off in 15.5 hours time in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[23:33] <nixternal> plus, i am doing a podcast interview for linux links tomorrow
[23:34] <genii> This may sound dumb but can someone enlighten me to "Kubuntu Tutorial Days"
[23:34] <nixternal> genii: check out Riddell's link
[23:34] <nixternal> OK, can I go to school now?
[23:34] <genii> nixternal: Will do
[23:34] <Tm_T> nixternal: that last part I might be help, if I'm online then
[23:34] <Riddell> nixternal: yes, we're done I think
[23:34] <Riddell> happy learning
[23:34] <txwikinger> have fun nixternal ;)
[23:34] <Riddell> good night all, thanks for coming
[23:34] <Tm_T> nixternal: as it's my "homefield"
[23:35] <nixternal> groovy...if you need anything for tomorrow, hightlight/msg me and I will work on it tonight when I get back from class
[23:35] <Tm_T> Riddell: thanks to you, and nighty night, see the dragons!
[23:35] <Riddell> next meeting a week on saturday I believe
[23:35] <nixternal> see ya'll later! and congrats once again to ardchoille and Tm_T
[23:35] <ardchoille> Riddell: Now that I'm a member, how do I apply for the irc cloak?
[23:35] <X314> nixternal: so if I just hang around long enough and be a yolly good person and do whatever I can to helpout with whatever I can I might become a member too ish?
[23:35] <kwwii> Riddell: I will be on a plane to america on that day
[23:35] <ardchoille> nixternal: Thank you :)
[23:35] <nixternal> X314: of course!
[23:35]  * nixternal out for real this time :)
[23:36] <ped> X314: and get some karma up on LP. :) That helps too. (if you don't already have some)
[23:36] <stdin> ardchoille: #ubuntu-ops and ask :)
[23:36] <ardchoille> Ah, thanks
[23:37] <txwikinger> ardchoille: there is a wiki page with instructions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Cloaks
[23:39] <X314> ped: this is going to sound silly. but LP?
[23:40] <Tm_T> X314: launchpad, our bugtracker and more
[23:41] <X314> Tm_T: right. o: I'm still getting into all of these acronyms everywhere
[23:41] <Tm_T> heh
[23:44] <ped> X314: LP is of the few I understand myself. ;) Than again, I'm not trying to get kubu membership (not yet). :)
[23:45] <ped> X314: otherwise I'm just as confused as you
[23:45] <X314> ped: well it feels good that someone is ^^
[23:49] <ardchoille> Thank you all :)