| === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | ||
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| aRyn | @schedule | 05:49 |
|---|---|---|
| ubotu | Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 05:49 |
| aRyn | @schedule london | 05:49 |
| ubotu | Schedule for Europe/London: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 05:49 |
| aRyn | hm, what's about the today's meeting? | 05:50 |
| aRyn | it's mssing | 05:50 |
| aRyn | @logs | 05:50 |
| aRyn | @log | 05:50 |
| aRyn | already updated?^^ | 05:55 |
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| riri | hi | 08:03 |
| riri | is meeting being held ? | 08:04 |
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| * highvoltage just got home from many, many hours of driving *shew* | 12:22 | |
| === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | ||
| MacSlow | kwwii, hey... go and have holidays! :) | 13:57 |
| === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach | ||
| kwwii | hi MacSlow | 13:58 |
| kwwii | MacSlow: just read your email, nifty stuff | 13:58 |
| kwwii | cimi posted a pic of the new murrine transparency stuff - and a couple of weeks ago he said it was not possible :p | 13:58 |
| Riddell | hi | 13:59 |
| tedg | 'morning | 13:59 |
| * Keybuk wonders whether you can get RSI in the shoulders from doing push-ups | 13:59 | |
| MacSlow | Keybuk, no only sore muscles | 14:00 |
| mvo | hello | 14:00 |
| pitti | hi | 14:00 |
| Keybuk | ok, let's get started | 14:00 |
| Keybuk | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2007-12-13 | 14:00 |
| Keybuk | first item, outstanding actions from last meeting | 14:00 |
| Keybuk | kwwii to complete hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme after decision at London presentation | 14:01 |
| Keybuk | is that still outstanding? | 14:01 |
| kwwii | Keybuk: almost finished with those specs (and other associated information) | 14:01 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: you expect to have them completed by next week? | 14:01 |
| kwwii | they'll be finished and online by tomorrow at the latest | 14:01 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:02 |
| Keybuk | MacSlow to complete drafting of hardy-desktop-effects and other assigned specs expected by the weekend | 14:02 |
| Keybuk | likewise, how are they going and when do you expect to be finished? | 14:02 |
| MacSlow | Keybuk, yes by the weekend | 14:02 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:03 |
| Keybuk | please all briefly look through the activity reports | 14:04 |
| Keybuk | are there any issues anyone would like to discuss? | 14:04 |
| Keybuk | or points anyone would like to raise? | 14:04 |
| kwwii | Keybuk: the only oustanding issue I have is that the art.ubuntu.com site is still not up | 14:04 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: do you have an RT# for that? | 14:05 |
| kwwii | Keybuk: I will poke mr nuzum and see if he does, I'll email any info to you | 14:05 |
| pitti | mvo: how does the dapper->gutsy upgrade look ATM? any outstanding major issues? we still need to fix hal&dbus, right? | 14:05 |
| tedg | I have a question: How did the London presentation go? Are we still black and orange or brown and off-brown? :) | 14:05 |
| mvo | pitti: the outstanding major issue is hal&dbus currently | 14:05 |
| kwwii | tedg: the presentation went well, we are still deciding on quite a few of the issues | 14:05 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: please do, I can't chase without more details | 14:06 |
| Keybuk | I'll give that to you as an action | 14:06 |
| kwwii | great | 14:06 |
| mvo | pitti: other than this we mostly look good for ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntu-desktop. I haven't tested a lot more yet :/ | 14:06 |
| kwwii | tedg: with those specs that I have to finish is a lot of other information which came from the results of the presentation meeting | 14:06 |
| MacSlow | kwwii, sorry I could not finish the GL/gtk+ stuff earlier... otherwise I could have giving one more "gun" :) | 14:06 |
| pitti | mvo: how difficult is it to set up that 'upgrade vs. clean install' diff? would be great to have data early | 14:06 |
| tedg | kwwii: Cool. Any spoilers? | 14:07 |
| kwwii | MacSlow: no worries | 14:07 |
| kwwii | tedg: the biggest decision for Hardy is that the themeing will not change completely with this release | 14:08 |
| mvo | pitti: generating the "clan install" state is something I currently don't know how to do automatically | 14:08 |
| kwwii | we decided that the LTS is the end of the cycle and not the start of the new one | 14:08 |
| pitti | mvo: how do you create the clean gutsy install for gutsy->hardy upgrade tests? or the dapper one? | 14:09 |
| tedg | kwwii: Ah, makes sense. You'll disappoint Slashdot ;) | 14:10 |
| mvo | pitti: I use jeos-builder and then install additional stuff. I would prefer to diff against ubqiuity though, but for the purpose of the test I could juse jeos-builder for hardy I think | 14:10 |
| pitti | mvo: unfortunately this is not something I could help with fakechroots, since they aren't powerful enough for maintainer scripts | 14:10 |
| MacSlow | kwwii, guess that's the reason why we're also giving more time for the face-browser... conservative changes are prefered for LTS | 14:10 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:10 |
| kwwii | MacSlow: well, if you have to support something for a long time it does make sense to not add crack to that release :-) | 14:10 |
| Keybuk | merges! | 14:10 |
| pitti | mvo: ah, running an install in qemu would be an option, I guess :) (that's what jeos-builder does, isn't it?) | 14:10 |
| mvo | pitti: yeah, it needs to run inside kvm :) | 14:10 |
| Keybuk | http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html | 14:11 |
| MacSlow | kwwii, I like crack ;) | 14:11 |
| Keybuk | today is the merge freeze | 14:11 |
| Keybuk | there are still 26 outstanding merges and 60 updated ones | 14:11 |
| pitti | the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw | 14:11 |
| mvo | pitti: jeos-builder uses debootstrap and some scripting magic, its not the same as a d-i install (but it should be close enough) | 14:11 |
| MacSlow | kwwii, the visual kind... at least to some extend | 14:11 |
| Keybuk | pitti: they did, that's nice to know :-) | 14:11 |
| mvo | apt, python-apt, synaptic will be ready soon | 14:11 |
| Keybuk | are there any (*cough* apt) that are best dealt with by our team? :) | 14:11 |
| pitti | mvo: right; livefs build is just bootstrap plus apt-get install ubuntu-desktop, too (ish) | 14:11 |
| kwwii | MacSlow: hehe, I like looking at butts too :p | 14:11 |
| pitti | synaptic | 14:12 |
| pitti | perhaps | 14:12 |
| pitti | (although lool TIL) | 14:12 |
| * mvo takes apt, python-apt, synptic | 14:12 | |
| Keybuk | ok, that's good news | 14:12 |
| MacSlow | hi seb128 | 14:12 |
| mvo | I can do acpid too if required | 14:12 |
| Keybuk | we're actually closer now then I think we've ever been in history ;) | 14:12 |
| seb128 | hey | 14:12 |
| Keybuk | we usually end up with about 50-80 remaining | 14:13 |
| pitti | the updated ones will always be there, I guess, but at least I will continue to update hal, hal-info, debhelper, etc. | 14:13 |
| Riddell | digikam is waiting on a new upstream | 14:13 |
| seb128 | closer than what? | 14:13 |
| mvo | hotkey-setup does not need a merge, our version is ahead of debian (it would only be cosmetic) | 14:13 |
| seb128 | sorry to be late | 14:13 |
| pitti | hey seb128 | 14:13 |
| seb128 | are you discussing merges? | 14:13 |
| pitti | yes | 14:13 |
| pitti | pitti| the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw | 14:13 |
| pitti | seb128: ^ that's what you told me, right? | 14:13 |
| seb128 | you are aware that the remaining ones have mostly been distribued during the platform team meeting yesterday? | 14:13 |
| mvo | python-distutils-extra is in debian with a ubuntu version number :) that is why it shows up in the merges, its not required to merge | 14:13 |
| seb128 | pitti: yes | 14:13 |
| pitti | seb128: yep; mvo is taking apt/synaptic & friends, though | 14:14 |
| pitti | mvo: discussed with Scott already, we'll just ignore it for now | 14:14 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:14 |
| Keybuk | pitti: Ptrace protection | 14:14 |
| seb128 | pitti: Colin said that apt was work in progress and we let it to mvo | 14:14 |
| pitti | not sure how many of you read the debian-devel@ thread or the PolicyKitINtegration spec | 14:15 |
| pitti | summary: we want a way to disable ptrace()/LD_PRELOAD for some programs which deal with passwords or other secrets | 14:15 |
| pitti | so that a local trojan can't gdb them and grab the passwords, etc. | 14:15 |
| pitti | admittedly this is a very strong attack scenario already (local trojan), and from there it's relatively easy to get the user's password by spoofing | 14:16 |
| pitti | but some weeks ago I thought about ways how to at least disable the 'quiet' password stealing (without extra spoofed dialogs, etc.) | 14:17 |
| pitti | so, debian doesn't like the 'setgid noptrace' trick, since it's too much of a hack | 14:17 |
| pitti | so I wonder whether we should go the kernel patch route (cleaner design, but needs kernel change), or give up on the idea at all | 14:17 |
| pitti | keeping a delta like the 'setgid ptrace' in ubuntu forever is a pretty high investment, so I wouldn't like to do that | 14:18 |
| Keybuk | have we done any investigation to the kernel route? | 14:18 |
| Keybuk | do we know how possible/difficult it is? | 14:18 |
| pitti | possible: yes, difficult: no idea yet | 14:18 |
| === \sh_away is now known as \sh | ||
| Keybuk | it sounds like this needs to be investigated a little then | 14:19 |
| pitti | (discussion is still pretty fresh) | 14:19 |
| Keybuk | doko: don't suppose you know much about ELF headers and respecting them in the kernel | 14:19 |
| doko | Keybuk: no, not yet my topic. sorry | 14:19 |
| pitti | Keybuk: so you at least don't oppose to the "do not do it in Ubuntu only" attitude? | 14:20 |
| Keybuk | right, it's a large delta for a smaller gain | 14:20 |
| pitti | I agree; the spec says to do it, though, so I at least want consent that we might change that | 14:20 |
| pitti | it's not an essential part of it, just a little better proactive security | 14:20 |
| pitti | so I'll talk to the kernel guys and investigate whether it's feasible for hardy | 14:21 |
| pitti | if yes, we'll do it and I modify the spec accordingly; if not, we'll just forget it | 14:21 |
| pitti | ok? | 14:21 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:21 |
| Keybuk | yup | 14:22 |
| Keybuk | if you're happy with that | 14:22 |
| pitti | I am | 14:22 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:22 |
| Keybuk | any other business? | 14:22 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: I was late, but while discussing themes, is ubuntulooks being superseded or is anybody going to work on it? | 14:23 |
| Keybuk | not for hardy | 14:23 |
| seb128 | DOH | 14:23 |
| seb128 | ok | 14:23 |
| seb128 | I guess I should try to have a look at the bugs again then | 14:24 |
| seb128 | there is quite some issues with it apparently | 14:24 |
| seb128 | joy | 14:24 |
| Keybuk | not being superseded in hardy, that is | 14:24 |
| Keybuk | what are the known issues? do you have a quick summary of them? | 14:24 |
| seb128 | nothing handy right now, no, I commit some patches every now and then | 14:25 |
| seb128 | leaks, bugs, crasher with firefox3, no way to select theme colors as with other modern themes, etc | 14:25 |
| Keybuk | we can certainly find ways to help you with known issues | 14:25 |
| seb128 | I was sort of expecting to have a better quality or maintained theme for the lts | 14:25 |
| Keybuk | the decision was that a new theme was too major for an LTS | 14:26 |
| Keybuk | and that an LTS should be the final opus of the theme | 14:26 |
| seb128 | ok, will do a summary of things that would be nice to fix and let you know | 14:26 |
| Keybuk | with the new one started for LTS+1 and achieving perfection by the next LTS | 14:26 |
| Keybuk | ok | 14:26 |
| Keybuk | thanks | 14:26 |
| Keybuk | KristianL: around? | 14:27 |
| KristianL | yup | 14:27 |
| Keybuk | sorry for grabbing you last | 14:28 |
| MacSlow | hi KristianL | 14:28 |
| KristianL | no worries, and hi MacSlow | 14:28 |
| Keybuk | for those that don't know, Kristian is working on a compiz plugin for us from an idea by one of the Canonical staff | 14:28 |
| Keybuk | mvo, MacSlow: have you had chance to play with the plugin yet? Any feedback? | 14:28 |
| seb128 | what is the plugin doing? | 14:28 |
| MacSlow | Keybuk, no but still on my todo for today | 14:29 |
| KristianL | same as miniwin tried to do a year++ ago; scale down windows visually. Think of download dialogs and chat windows | 14:29 |
| mvo | I played with it a bit | 14:29 |
| mvo | its quite nice, a nice idea | 14:29 |
| mvo | and works already quite well (the only issue I found was that the resize outline was not scaled down as well) | 14:30 |
| KristianL | it should be now mvo, but I still need to stick a fake window on top, since you still have access to the upper left corner of the window with the mouse. | 14:30 |
| MacSlow | KristianL, so questions/suggestions/patches for that plugin should go your way?! | 14:30 |
| KristianL | yeah | 14:31 |
| Keybuk | absolutely | 14:31 |
| Keybuk | KristianL: and please provide mvo and macslow with access to the code on as regular basis as you can | 14:31 |
| mvo | KristianL: aha, ok. I played with it this morning | 14:31 |
| Keybuk | (if you have it in a vcs, so much the better) | 14:31 |
| mvo | its in git already, no? | 14:31 |
| KristianL | it's on git already, yeah | 14:31 |
| Keybuk | cool, thanks | 14:33 |
| Keybuk | unless there's anything else, let's adjourn for now | 14:33 |
| * Riddell bigs up Kubuntu Tutorials Day in half an hour in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay | 14:34 | |
| Riddell | just for all those who want to learn how to package or use PyQt :) | 14:34 |
| Hobbsee | come to the dark side! | 14:34 |
| pitti | "blue" rather | 14:35 |
| Hobbsee | perhaps kubuntu should turn black next, then. | 14:35 |
| === Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee | ||
| === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | ||
| === \sh is now known as \sh_away | ||
| aRyn | what's about the Desktop Team Development Meeting? | 17:15 |
| stdin | aRyn: see the topic, it's on the 20th | 17:19 |
| aRyn | hm, the calenda says totday.. from the fridge | 17:20 |
| aRyn | on 20th is jsut the next one | 17:20 |
| stdin | aRyn: that was at 14:00 - 15:00 UTC it's not 17:22 UTC | 17:21 |
| stdin | s/not/now | 17:22 |
| aRyn | yeah, i know, but there wasn | 17:22 |
| aRyn | 't any | 17:22 |
| stdin | my log shows there was one at 14:00 | 17:22 |
| aRyn | i joined hours before (not to miss it), but everything is empty | 17:23 |
| pochu | There was one. | 17:23 |
| pochu | !logs | aRyn | 17:23 |
| ubotu | aRyn: Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/ | 17:23 |
| aRyn | ok | 17:23 |
| pochu | aRyn: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2007-December/001307.html | 17:24 |
| aRyn | thx | 17:57 |
| PriceChild | @schedule | 17:59 |
| ubotu | Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 17:59 |
| === AzRek_MNar is now known as dev_n00b | ||
| === TechnoViking is now known as MikeB | ||
| MikeB | we will start the forums council meeting in a couple of minutes | 22:31 |
| jdong | sounds good | 22:31 |
| forumsmatthew | I'm here | 22:32 |
| MikeB | howdy | 22:34 |
| ubuntugeek | afternoon | 22:34 |
| ubuntugeek | We ready to rock this meeting? | 22:34 |
| MikeB | think so | 22:34 |
| forumsmatthew | all set here | 22:35 |
| jdong | let's do it! | 22:35 |
| * jdong pulls up agenda :) | 22:35 | |
| MikeB | ====== Meeting Start ========= | 22:35 |
| ubuntugeek | alrght | 22:35 |
| MikeB | jdong: Implementing a positive feedback "Reputation" system | 22:36 |
| ubuntugeek | Sounds good! I found a really nice way to implement a thank you system into the forums | 22:36 |
| jdong | cool | 22:36 |
| forumsmatthew | how's it work? | 22:37 |
| ubuntugeek | If a users finds a post useful they can give a thank you | 22:37 |
| MikeB | great | 22:37 |
| forumsmatthew | nice | 22:37 |
| ubuntugeek | it will then show on the users profile, like a bean count | 22:37 |
| jdong | ah, that's cool | 22:37 |
| jdong | does it let you track back which post the thankyou came from? | 22:37 |
| forumsmatthew | do you think we will need to keep an eye out for "please thank me" posts, or am I just being over cautious? | 22:38 |
| jdong | forumsmatthew: that might happen, we should have something in our policies to discourage blatantly asking for mod-ups | 22:38 |
| MikeB | forumsmatthew: maybe a policy, asking for a thank you gets all thanks removed | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Yeah we can moderate the thank you's etc.. | 22:39 |
| forumsmatthew | MikeB, ooh. I like that | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Users can't thank twice | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to not allow users to thank their own post | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Guests don't see 'thanks' button | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Counts how many thanks a user gives | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Counts how many thanks a post gets | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Shows how many thanks a user gave in every post of his | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Shows how many thanks a user gave in profile | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Shows how many thanks a user got | 22:39 |
| ubuntugeek | Shows how many posts or a user are thanked | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Shows info in profile | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Search for a users thanked posts | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Search for all thanked posts | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Administrator can remove all Thanks from a single post | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Users can remove their own Thanks | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Turn on and off hack totally | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Turn on and off hack for only some forums | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread in specific forums | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to turn off hack view of date for specific or all forums | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to add to post count when someone clicks 'thanks'. | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | Option to give a user who receives thanks reputation points. | 22:40 |
| forumsmatthew | wow! | 22:40 |
| jdong | that's impressive | 22:40 |
| ubuntugeek | :) I think our users will like it since the topic has been coming up recently more and more | 22:41 |
| ubuntugeek | so i am +1 on this | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | I agree | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | +1 | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | let's try it out | 22:41 |
| MikeB | this sounds great, +1 | 22:41 |
| ubuntugeek | Yep, if it fails we simply turn it off | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | (new toy...making me giddy) | 22:41 |
| ubuntugeek | lol | 22:41 |
| jdong | +1 | 22:41 |
| MikeB | christmas is early | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | either that or it's the cold medicint | 22:41 |
| forumsmatthew | medicine | 22:41 |
| ubuntugeek | good deal | 22:42 |
| MikeB | anything else, or should we move on? | 22:42 |
| ubuntugeek | Lets move on | 22:42 |
| jdong | move on | 22:42 |
| forumsmatthew | move on | 22:42 |
| MikeB | jdong: Damage control mechanisms. Ways that staff/admin can trigger more moderation power | 22:43 |
| ubuntugeek | I'd like some more information on this one | 22:43 |
| jdong | well it would be for emergencies like a large incoming spam attack.... | 22:43 |
| jdong | whether we can limit/moderate registrations, posts by new users.... | 22:43 |
| jdong | maybe have a way for staff to ban a certain IP from registering | 22:43 |
| ubuntugeek | Ah gotcha, so like a emergency type account if a admin isnt around? | 22:44 |
| jdong | right | 22:44 |
| jdong | if we recall from before, there's been cases where a kiddie has been able to fill up like 2-3 pages of junk threads | 22:44 |
| somerville32 | jdong, What about a panic button? | 22:44 |
| jdong | and with the staff's current set of tools, there's no way even 10 staff can work together to combat it | 22:44 |
| jdong | somerville32: something of that nature, yes | 22:44 |
| jdong | right off the bat, more obviously, I think the "delete, and infract-ban" action should be streamlined into a one-click ordeal | 22:45 |
| jdong | the current method feels way too tedious | 22:45 |
| forumsmatthew | maybe if we implement a standard message so that a new one doesn't have to be entered when this is done? | 22:46 |
| ubuntugeek | Well thats more of a work flow/application setting then a permission setting to modify registrations etc etc. | 22:46 |
| jdong | forumsmatthew: right. If we can reduce it to clicking one button, and then a confirm button, I'd be happy. | 22:47 |
| jdong | currently there's a form you have to fill out, plus you have to separately delete, and you can only operate one post at a time | 22:47 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: i see what you mean, we might be able to come up with a better workflow to address that. | 22:48 |
| jdong | right | 22:48 |
| ubuntugeek | I know the new version of vb is coming out which has some enhancements which might clean this method of banning up. | 22:48 |
| jdong | but back to moderation techniques, what techniques do you all feel are the most effective for controlling a mass spam wave? | 22:48 |
| jdong | I think being able to toggle moderation for all users under a postcount of X would be nice | 22:49 |
| jdong | a full-board moderation would just be a bigger strain on the staff, not a relief | 22:49 |
| forumsmatthew | that sounds useful...I wonder how much of a hack it would require | 22:51 |
| forumsmatthew | with a major vb upgrade coming, maybe we should see what that brings with it? | 22:51 |
| forumsmatthew | then revisit this | 22:51 |
| jdong | agreed | 22:51 |
| ubuntugeek | Yeah, I think there will be some features to address some of t hese concerns | 22:51 |
| jdong | ok, then let's table this once the VB 3.7 stuff solidifies | 22:51 |
| ubuntugeek | Sounds good | 22:52 |
| forumsmatthew | agreed | 22:52 |
| MikeB | sounds plannish | 22:52 |
| * vorian makes a note | 22:52 | |
| ubuntugeek | vorian you are alive | 22:52 |
| vorian | yeah | 22:53 |
| forumsmatthew | next item? | 22:53 |
| vorian | just made it home :) | 22:53 |
| MikeB | Mike: Policy on malicious code in post and protecting users from it, and discussion of ForumContentCertification spec | 22:53 |
| MikeB | at UDS-Boston, we had a spec talking about how to curb and correct malicious code that is posted in the forums. | 22:54 |
| MikeB | then we had the recent outbreak of rm -rf crap | 22:54 |
| forumsmatthew | I think malicious code should not be allowed in posts if it is obfuscated, but if given with a proper warning and is clearly written as an example, it could have a pedagogic purpose | 22:55 |
| ubuntugeek | I don't think we are going to be able to completly remove this type of behavior. | 22:55 |
| jdong | I'm fine with people posting potentially destructive/dangerous command for education or for a legitimate support purpose, as long as it's prefaced with a clear warning of what it does and how dangerous it may be | 22:56 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: agree'd | 22:56 |
| forumsmatthew | we infract and ban trolls anyway, regardless of whether they have malicious code content, so this may be redundant | 22:56 |
| jdong | ultimately it's the job of the reader to decide how safe something is, we can't do that for them, but we cannot tolerate deceptive descriptions of command | 22:56 |
| jdong | s | 22:56 |
| forumsmatthew | agreed | 22:56 |
| ubuntugeek | If someone posts something horrible in a howto its probably already caught by the mod who approves it. | 22:56 |
| vorian | yep | 22:56 |
| jdong | i.e. saying "rm -rf will destroy all your data" is different than saying "rm -rf will renew your DHCP lease" | 22:56 |
| forumsmatthew | lol | 22:56 |
| jdong | :D | 22:56 |
| forumsmatthew | I thought rm -rf / would fix my DRM issues | 22:57 |
| jdong | only when executed on Cygwin :) | 22:57 |
| ubuntugeek | In the cases where someone says rm -rf al we can do is direct the users not issues such commands and make that clear | 22:57 |
| MikeB | forumsmatthew: it does, but Banshee will not play any more:) | 22:57 |
| jdong | MikeB: what did the spec originally entail? I'm curious | 22:57 |
| forumsmatthew | MikeB, lol | 22:58 |
| MikeB | 1. a team, new team but I thought the AB team would be better, to help sort though posts and find and maybe edit the bad content | 22:59 |
| ubuntugeek | I guess I don't see any benefits that will actually improve the processes we have in place already. The only benefit would be having that team approve howto's and not staff. | 22:59 |
| MikeB | 2. a rep system to help users tell good helpful posters from trolls | 22:59 |
| jdong | I think #1 will be good if we extend that to cover not just malicious commands but also potentially risky/unsupported processes. | 22:59 |
| ubuntugeek | We need to remember this is a forum, not a wiki. | 22:59 |
| jdong | i.e. adding unsafe repositories, unsafe installation procedures, and so on | 23:00 |
| PriceChild | MikeB, number 1 - like the current moderator team? | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | Im not really ok with giving people permissions to change posts globally. | 23:00 |
| MikeB | we kinda covered #2 today | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | I think if we want to create a team to handle new howto's that will be fine. | 23:01 |
| jdong | yeah, that sounds like a good idea | 23:01 |
| MikeB | I'm good with that | 23:01 |
| ubuntugeek | We'll have to work out the logistics, but I think our staff does a fine job at catching issues in the howto's. | 23:01 |
| forumsmatthew | sure | 23:01 |
| forumsmatthew | I think things are working well now | 23:02 |
| MikeB | ubuntugeek: I agree | 23:02 |
| jdong | I also think we need some formal guidelines about howto's -- ones involving unsupported procedures should carry (1) A disclaimer, preferably centralized in the official wiki (2) A contact person to consult for troubles arising from the howto | 23:02 |
| ubuntugeek | forumsmatthew: I agree, if its a staffing man power issue we can recruit new staff. | 23:02 |
| forumsmatthew | ubuntugeek, that's what I was thinking | 23:02 |
| forumsmatthew | no need for a new process, another detail | 23:02 |
| ubuntugeek | So lets do this | 23:02 |
| ubuntugeek | Recruit some new staff (5-6) should be a good number we haven't recuited in sometime now. We'll do it the same way we always have. Secondly, we can create a guideline/ruleset for posting new howto's. | 23:03 |
| forumsmatthew | that seems reasonable | 23:04 |
| MikeB | sounds good to me | 23:04 |
| * PriceChild feels evil and tasks the new recruits to audit the entire tips and tricks subforum | 23:04 | |
| ubuntugeek | +1 from me | 23:04 |
| MikeB | +1 | 23:04 |
| forumsmatthew | +1 | 23:04 |
| jdong | +1 | 23:05 |
| vorian | lol | 23:05 |
| forumsmatthew | PriceChild is in charge of tasking the new recruits | 23:05 |
| jdong | lol | 23:05 |
| ubuntugeek | great! who wishes' to write up the guidelines rules | 23:05 |
| vorian | ubuntugeek, how soon would you like to have it? | 23:05 |
| ubuntugeek | I'd say within a week or so sounds reasonable. | 23:05 |
| ubuntugeek | Or write up can be voted on for approval at the next FC meeting. | 23:06 |
| ubuntugeek | either way. | 23:06 |
| vorian | I can do it then, if no one else want to :) | 23:06 |
| MikeB | vorian: go for it:) | 23:07 |
| vorian | kk | 23:07 |
| jdong | vorian: do it on the wiki and I'd be glad to pitch in too | 23:07 |
| vorian | sounds good jdong | 23:07 |
| vorian | thanks :) | 23:07 |
| jdong | I just don't have the free time this week and next week to take responsibility for it :) | 23:07 |
| ubuntugeek | Sounds good, write it up and put a reference on the wiki we'll discuss the draft at the next FC meeting or sooner if need be | 23:07 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeBasinger | 23:07 |
| ubuntugeek | Implementing the Ubuntu membership approval by the Forums Council | 23:07 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeB: you got the floor on this one, give us the low down | 23:08 |
| MikeB | the CC is wanting the different council to start approving members | 23:08 |
| ubuntugeek | What will the procedure be? | 23:08 |
| MikeB | since the FC has been going for a year next month, I think we are ready to start | 23:08 |
| forumsmatthew | Do we write our own procedure for this? | 23:09 |
| MikeB | it would be the same as people do for Ubuntu Membership at the CC, sign the code of conduit, write a wiki of work done for Ubuntu | 23:09 |
| ubuntugeek | but the CC will have the final vote correct? | 23:10 |
| MikeB | but we would only consider members whos main body of work in the Ubuntu community has been in the forums | 23:10 |
| forumsmatthew | primarily staff, but not limited to that? | 23:10 |
| PriceChild | ubuntugeek, no, for example the "kubuntu council" approves members, the motu council approves members... they're trusted to know what they're doing | 23:10 |
| jdong | ok, what is the policy for people who try to apply to be member via a shotgun effect? | 23:11 |
| PriceChild | ubuntugeek, means the community council can busy themselves with more important matters instead of half a million membership applications a week | 23:11 |
| ubuntugeek | OK, that wasn't how i understood it when we had a discussion awhile back. | 23:11 |
| jdong | i.e. limits on how many councils they may apply to, etc etc? | 23:11 |
| MikeB | ubuntugeek: I beleieve the CC only looks for problem the FC (or other Council) may have missed | 23:11 |
| ubuntugeek | Right, so if we approve someone do they still need to go the CC? | 23:11 |
| MikeB | ie: forumsjack is a great forums person, always helps, but when he is on irc he insults women | 23:12 |
| MikeB | ubuntugeek: that needs some clearing up from the CC | 23:12 |
| jdong | MikeB: I don't think you obfuscated my name well enough ;-) | 23:13 |
| MikeB | jdong: BWHAHAHA!!! | 23:13 |
| jdong | lol | 23:13 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeB: ok lets clarify that. | 23:13 |
| MikeB | ubuntugeek: will do | 23:13 |
| jdong | MikeB: yeah, I'd like clarification too on the procedure for if someone has recently applied for membership via another method and been turned down | 23:14 |
| ubuntugeek | Lets get the details on that and discuss at the next meeting. | 23:14 |
| forumsmatthew | ubuntugeek, +1 | 23:14 |
| MikeB | ok, there is a wiki for comments on this also | 23:14 |
| ubuntugeek | Ok, lets get some more details outlined from the CC on this. MikeB since you are on the CC you can handle that part :) | 23:14 |
| forumsmatthew | MikeB, do you have a link to that? | 23:15 |
| MikeB | ubuntugeek: ok:) | 23:15 |
| MikeB | next? | 23:15 |
| ubuntugeek | I think its a great idea and hopefully we can move forward. | 23:15 |
| jdong | yeah, I look forward to it | 23:15 |
| forumsmatthew | +1 | 23:16 |
| ubuntugeek | I think we need to have some forum procedures in place first. | 23:16 |
| jdong | ubuntugeek: do you want to talk forum procedures for it now, or when we know the CC procedure? | 23:16 |
| jdong | (it's pretty independent) | 23:16 |
| ubuntugeek | The user should be really active on the forums for one. | 23:16 |
| vorian | what about membership for staffers? | 23:16 |
| ubuntugeek | No just needed to rmable :) | 23:16 |
| ubuntugeek | staffers are already by default members if they wish | 23:16 |
| jdong | ok, so we need an application process and a set of criteria :) | 23:17 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: we can do it next meeting when we get more details. I make a note on the wiki with my thoughts. | 23:17 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeBasinger | 23:17 |
| ubuntugeek | Ubuntu teams members as mods in their area | 23:17 |
| jdong | ok, cool, again, let's put this up on the wiki so we can come in prepared with preforumlated ideas/proposals | 23:17 |
| ubuntugeek | agreed. | 23:17 |
| jdong | MikeB: what would be the nature of the reasons they want mod access? | 23:18 |
| MikeB | we got a couple of request from Ubuntu team member is that could mod their team area in the forum | 23:18 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeB: I dont understand the request to be honest. | 23:18 |
| jdong | I'd be readily willing to give them sticking/moving type privs | 23:18 |
| forumsmatthew | what teams? | 23:18 |
| vorian | I thought we were already kind of doing that | 23:18 |
| MikeB | we got one request on the FC mailing | 23:18 |
| jdong | but editing, infracting, locking, I'm more uncomfortable about | 23:18 |
| forumsmatthew | loco leaders have mod privileges in their areas... | 23:19 |
| MikeB | and the MOTUs wants a mod in the packaging forum, mostly to post stickies | 23:19 |
| vorian | jdong is a MOTU | 23:19 |
| forumsmatthew | okay, I remember seeing that on the mailing list | 23:19 |
| ubuntugeek | MikeB: thats fine we can do that. I think giving someone mod acesss to a already existing team with already existing leaders will causes problems though. | 23:20 |
| forumsmatthew | jdong offered to do that when asked, if I recall correctly | 23:20 |
| MikeB | jdong: Ram-Man, Man-E-Faces? | 23:20 |
| jdong | :) | 23:20 |
| jdong | ok, for sticking/unsticking, is the report post mechanism not fast enough? | 23:21 |
| jdong | I think we respond to those pretty instantaneously | 23:21 |
| PriceChild | Have they tried? :/ | 23:21 |
| ubuntugeek | Jdong: yeah i kinda feel the same way on that. | 23:21 |
| forumsmatthew | jdong, +1 | 23:21 |
| ubuntugeek | I don't think just because someone is a member they should be a mod on a team. | 23:21 |
| jdong | I mean, if they demonstrated "I requested this sticked and 2 days later, nothing", then let's revisit this | 23:21 |
| jdong | otherwise, I think report posts is the correct solution | 23:21 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: +1 | 23:22 |
| * vorian nods | 23:22 | |
| forumsmatthew | +1, let's give the current system a chance before making changes | 23:22 |
| MikeB | ok | 23:22 |
| MikeB | +1 | 23:23 |
| ubuntugeek | good deal! | 23:23 |
| ubuntugeek | Anything else? | 23:23 |
| MikeB | none here | 23:24 |
| jdong | nope | 23:24 |
| forumsmatthew | nothing from me | 23:24 |
| ubuntugeek | Shall we reschedule for the same day/time next month? | 23:25 |
| ubuntugeek | since we are all here we can get that out of the way | 23:25 |
| PriceChild | Kiwi? | 23:25 |
| MikeB | we should find a time good for Kiwi | 23:25 |
| forumsmatthew | January 13th is a Sunday, fine with me, but were you thinking of the second Thursday? | 23:25 |
| forumsmatthew | It would be nice if Kiwi could make it | 23:26 |
| jdong | my schedule should be extremely open next month, let's find a time that kiwi can make it | 23:26 |
| ubuntugeek | Ok i'll email the FC list and get times. | 23:26 |
| forumsmatthew | sounds good | 23:26 |
| ubuntugeek | vorian i'll let you know what we come up with | 23:26 |
| MikeB | forumsmatthew: feel better | 23:27 |
| forumsmatthew | MikeB, thanks! | 23:27 |
| ubuntugeek | You sick matthew? | 23:27 |
| forumsmatthew | I'm off for some sleep, before the cold meds wear off | 23:27 |
| forumsmatthew | Yeah, flu | 23:27 |
| jdong | aww take care, drink your fluids, and so on | 23:27 |
| ubuntugeek | Oh man.. go to bed.. | 23:27 |
| forumsmatthew | That's why I couldn't think of a good troll this month | 23:27 |
| ubuntugeek | hah | 23:28 |
| ubuntugeek | there is always next month | 23:28 |
| forumsmatthew | lol | 23:28 |
| ubuntugeek | Take care everyone.. | 23:28 |
| forumsmatthew | 'night, all! | 23:28 |
| jdong | bye | 23:28 |
| MikeB | night | 23:28 |
| MikeB | ===== Meeting End ===== | 23:30 |
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