=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development === mjg59` is now known as mjg59 === asac_ is now known as asac === calc_ is now known as calc [05:49] @schedule [05:49] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development [05:49] @schedule london [05:49] Schedule for Europe/London: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development [05:50] hm, what's about the today's meeting? [05:50] it's mssing [05:50] @logs [05:50] @log [05:55] already updated?^^ === Shely is now known as Schneeflocke === dev_n00b|WoW is now known as dev_n00b === doko_ is now known as doko === b0nn is now known as vulcan === vulcan is now known as b0nn === antdedyet is now known as jtraylor === jtraylor is now known as antdedyet === antdedyet is now known as jtraylor === jtraylor is now known as jonathant === jonathant is now known as jtraylor === jtraylor is now known as antdedyet === Shely is now known as iSchnee [08:03] hi [08:04] is meeting being held ? === Varka_ is now known as Varka === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === czessi_ is now known as Czessi === \sh_away is now known as \sh === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === \sh is now known as \sh_away [12:22] * highvoltage just got home from many, many hours of driving *shew* === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development [13:57] kwwii, hey... go and have holidays! :) === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [13:58] hi MacSlow [13:58] MacSlow: just read your email, nifty stuff [13:58] cimi posted a pic of the new murrine transparency stuff - and a couple of weeks ago he said it was not possible :p [13:59] hi [13:59] 'morning [13:59] * Keybuk wonders whether you can get RSI in the shoulders from doing push-ups [14:00] Keybuk, no only sore muscles [14:00] hello [14:00] hi [14:00] ok, let's get started [14:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2007-12-13 [14:00] first item, outstanding actions from last meeting [14:01] kwwii to complete hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme after decision at London presentation [14:01] is that still outstanding? [14:01] Keybuk: almost finished with those specs (and other associated information) [14:01] kwwii: you expect to have them completed by next week? [14:01] they'll be finished and online by tomorrow at the latest [14:02] ok [14:02] MacSlow to complete drafting of hardy-desktop-effects and other assigned specs expected by the weekend [14:02] likewise, how are they going and when do you expect to be finished? [14:02] Keybuk, yes by the weekend [14:03] ok [14:04] please all briefly look through the activity reports [14:04] are there any issues anyone would like to discuss? [14:04] or points anyone would like to raise? [14:04] Keybuk: the only oustanding issue I have is that the art.ubuntu.com site is still not up [14:05] kwwii: do you have an RT# for that? [14:05] Keybuk: I will poke mr nuzum and see if he does, I'll email any info to you [14:05] mvo: how does the dapper->gutsy upgrade look ATM? any outstanding major issues? we still need to fix hal&dbus, right? [14:05] I have a question: How did the London presentation go? Are we still black and orange or brown and off-brown? :) [14:05] pitti: the outstanding major issue is hal&dbus currently [14:05] tedg: the presentation went well, we are still deciding on quite a few of the issues [14:06] kwwii: please do, I can't chase without more details [14:06] I'll give that to you as an action [14:06] great [14:06] pitti: other than this we mostly look good for ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntu-desktop. I haven't tested a lot more yet :/ [14:06] tedg: with those specs that I have to finish is a lot of other information which came from the results of the presentation meeting [14:06] kwwii, sorry I could not finish the GL/gtk+ stuff earlier... otherwise I could have giving one more "gun" :) [14:06] mvo: how difficult is it to set up that 'upgrade vs. clean install' diff? would be great to have data early [14:07] kwwii: Cool. Any spoilers? [14:07] MacSlow: no worries [14:08] tedg: the biggest decision for Hardy is that the themeing will not change completely with this release [14:08] pitti: generating the "clan install" state is something I currently don't know how to do automatically [14:08] we decided that the LTS is the end of the cycle and not the start of the new one [14:09] mvo: how do you create the clean gutsy install for gutsy->hardy upgrade tests? or the dapper one? [14:10] kwwii: Ah, makes sense. You'll disappoint Slashdot ;) [14:10] pitti: I use jeos-builder and then install additional stuff. I would prefer to diff against ubqiuity though, but for the purpose of the test I could juse jeos-builder for hardy I think [14:10] mvo: unfortunately this is not something I could help with fakechroots, since they aren't powerful enough for maintainer scripts [14:10] kwwii, guess that's the reason why we're also giving more time for the face-browser... conservative changes are prefered for LTS [14:10] ok [14:10] MacSlow: well, if you have to support something for a long time it does make sense to not add crack to that release :-) [14:10] merges! [14:10] mvo: ah, running an install in qemu would be an option, I guess :) (that's what jeos-builder does, isn't it?) [14:10] pitti: yeah, it needs to run inside kvm :) [14:11] http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html [14:11] kwwii, I like crack ;) [14:11] today is the merge freeze [14:11] there are still 26 outstanding merges and 60 updated ones [14:11] the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw [14:11] pitti: jeos-builder uses debootstrap and some scripting magic, its not the same as a d-i install (but it should be close enough) [14:11] kwwii, the visual kind... at least to some extend [14:11] pitti: they did, that's nice to know :-) [14:11] apt, python-apt, synaptic will be ready soon [14:11] are there any (*cough* apt) that are best dealt with by our team? :) [14:11] mvo: right; livefs build is just bootstrap plus apt-get install ubuntu-desktop, too (ish) [14:11] MacSlow: hehe, I like looking at butts too :p [14:12] synaptic [14:12] perhaps [14:12] (although lool TIL) [14:12] * mvo takes apt, python-apt, synptic [14:12] ok, that's good news [14:12] hi seb128 [14:12] I can do acpid too if required [14:12] we're actually closer now then I think we've ever been in history ;) [14:12] hey [14:13] we usually end up with about 50-80 remaining [14:13] the updated ones will always be there, I guess, but at least I will continue to update hal, hal-info, debhelper, etc. [14:13] digikam is waiting on a new upstream [14:13] closer than what? [14:13] hotkey-setup does not need a merge, our version is ahead of debian (it would only be cosmetic) [14:13] sorry to be late [14:13] hey seb128 [14:13] are you discussing merges? [14:13] yes [14:13] pitti| the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw [14:13] seb128: ^ that's what you told me, right? [14:13] you are aware that the remaining ones have mostly been distribued during the platform team meeting yesterday? [14:13] python-distutils-extra is in debian with a ubuntu version number :) that is why it shows up in the merges, its not required to merge [14:13] pitti: yes [14:14] seb128: yep; mvo is taking apt/synaptic & friends, though [14:14] mvo: discussed with Scott already, we'll just ignore it for now [14:14] ok [14:14] pitti: Ptrace protection [14:14] pitti: Colin said that apt was work in progress and we let it to mvo [14:15] not sure how many of you read the debian-devel@ thread or the PolicyKitINtegration spec [14:15] summary: we want a way to disable ptrace()/LD_PRELOAD for some programs which deal with passwords or other secrets [14:15] so that a local trojan can't gdb them and grab the passwords, etc. [14:16] admittedly this is a very strong attack scenario already (local trojan), and from there it's relatively easy to get the user's password by spoofing [14:17] but some weeks ago I thought about ways how to at least disable the 'quiet' password stealing (without extra spoofed dialogs, etc.) [14:17] so, debian doesn't like the 'setgid noptrace' trick, since it's too much of a hack [14:17] so I wonder whether we should go the kernel patch route (cleaner design, but needs kernel change), or give up on the idea at all [14:18] keeping a delta like the 'setgid ptrace' in ubuntu forever is a pretty high investment, so I wouldn't like to do that [14:18] have we done any investigation to the kernel route? [14:18] do we know how possible/difficult it is? [14:18] possible: yes, difficult: no idea yet === \sh_away is now known as \sh [14:19] it sounds like this needs to be investigated a little then [14:19] (discussion is still pretty fresh) [14:19] doko: don't suppose you know much about ELF headers and respecting them in the kernel [14:19] Keybuk: no, not yet my topic. sorry [14:20] Keybuk: so you at least don't oppose to the "do not do it in Ubuntu only" attitude? [14:20] right, it's a large delta for a smaller gain [14:20] I agree; the spec says to do it, though, so I at least want consent that we might change that [14:20] it's not an essential part of it, just a little better proactive security [14:21] so I'll talk to the kernel guys and investigate whether it's feasible for hardy [14:21] if yes, we'll do it and I modify the spec accordingly; if not, we'll just forget it [14:21] ok? [14:21] ok [14:22] yup [14:22] if you're happy with that [14:22] I am [14:22] ok [14:22] any other business? [14:23] Keybuk: I was late, but while discussing themes, is ubuntulooks being superseded or is anybody going to work on it? [14:23] not for hardy [14:23] DOH [14:23] ok [14:24] I guess I should try to have a look at the bugs again then [14:24] there is quite some issues with it apparently [14:24] joy [14:24] not being superseded in hardy, that is [14:24] what are the known issues? do you have a quick summary of them? [14:25] nothing handy right now, no, I commit some patches every now and then [14:25] leaks, bugs, crasher with firefox3, no way to select theme colors as with other modern themes, etc [14:25] we can certainly find ways to help you with known issues [14:25] I was sort of expecting to have a better quality or maintained theme for the lts [14:26] the decision was that a new theme was too major for an LTS [14:26] and that an LTS should be the final opus of the theme [14:26] ok, will do a summary of things that would be nice to fix and let you know [14:26] with the new one started for LTS+1 and achieving perfection by the next LTS [14:26] ok [14:26] thanks [14:27] KristianL: around? [14:27] yup [14:28] sorry for grabbing you last [14:28] hi KristianL [14:28] no worries, and hi MacSlow [14:28] for those that don't know, Kristian is working on a compiz plugin for us from an idea by one of the Canonical staff [14:28] mvo, MacSlow: have you had chance to play with the plugin yet? Any feedback? [14:28] what is the plugin doing? [14:29] Keybuk, no but still on my todo for today [14:29] same as miniwin tried to do a year++ ago; scale down windows visually. Think of download dialogs and chat windows [14:29] I played with it a bit [14:29] its quite nice, a nice idea [14:30] and works already quite well (the only issue I found was that the resize outline was not scaled down as well) [14:30] it should be now mvo, but I still need to stick a fake window on top, since you still have access to the upper left corner of the window with the mouse. [14:30] KristianL, so questions/suggestions/patches for that plugin should go your way?! [14:31] yeah [14:31] absolutely [14:31] KristianL: and please provide mvo and macslow with access to the code on as regular basis as you can [14:31] KristianL: aha, ok. I played with it this morning [14:31] (if you have it in a vcs, so much the better) [14:31] its in git already, no? [14:31] it's on git already, yeah [14:33] cool, thanks [14:33] unless there's anything else, let's adjourn for now [14:34] * Riddell bigs up Kubuntu Tutorials Day in half an hour in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay [14:34] just for all those who want to learn how to package or use PyQt :) [14:34] come to the dark side! [14:35] "blue" rather [14:35] perhaps kubuntu should turn black next, then. === Hobbsee_ is now known as Hobbsee === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development === \sh is now known as \sh_away [17:15] what's about the Desktop Team Development Meeting? [17:19] aRyn: see the topic, it's on the 20th [17:20] hm, the calenda says totday.. from the fridge [17:20] on 20th is jsut the next one [17:21] aRyn: that was at 14:00 - 15:00 UTC it's not 17:22 UTC [17:22] s/not/now [17:22] yeah, i know, but there wasn [17:22] 't any [17:22] my log shows there was one at 14:00 [17:23] i joined hours before (not to miss it), but everything is empty [17:23] There was one. [17:23] !logs | aRyn [17:23] aRyn: Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/ [17:23] ok [17:24] aRyn: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2007-December/001307.html [17:57] thx [17:59] @schedule [17:59] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development === AzRek_MNar is now known as dev_n00b === TechnoViking is now known as MikeB [22:31] we will start the forums council meeting in a couple of minutes [22:31] sounds good [22:32] I'm here [22:34] howdy [22:34] afternoon [22:34] We ready to rock this meeting? [22:34] think so [22:35] all set here [22:35] let's do it! [22:35] * jdong pulls up agenda :) [22:35] ====== Meeting Start ========= [22:35] alrght [22:36] jdong: Implementing a positive feedback "Reputation" system [22:36] Sounds good! I found a really nice way to implement a thank you system into the forums [22:36] cool [22:37] how's it work? [22:37] If a users finds a post useful they can give a thank you [22:37] great [22:37] nice [22:37] it will then show on the users profile, like a bean count [22:37] ah, that's cool [22:37] does it let you track back which post the thankyou came from? [22:38] do you think we will need to keep an eye out for "please thank me" posts, or am I just being over cautious? [22:38] forumsmatthew: that might happen, we should have something in our policies to discourage blatantly asking for mod-ups [22:39] forumsmatthew: maybe a policy, asking for a thank you gets all thanks removed [22:39] Yeah we can moderate the thank you's etc.. [22:39] MikeB, ooh. I like that [22:39] Users can't thank twice [22:39] Option to not allow users to thank their own post [22:39] Guests don't see 'thanks' button [22:39] Counts how many thanks a user gives [22:39] Counts how many thanks a post gets [22:39] Shows how many thanks a user gave in every post of his [22:39] Shows how many thanks a user gave in profile [22:39] Shows how many thanks a user got [22:40] Shows how many posts or a user are thanked [22:40] Shows info in profile [22:40] Search for a users thanked posts [22:40] Search for all thanked posts [22:40] Administrator can remove all Thanks from a single post [22:40] Users can remove their own Thanks [22:40] Turn on and off hack totally [22:40] Turn on and off hack for only some forums [22:40] Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread [22:40] Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread in specific forums [22:40] Option to turn off hack view of date for specific or all forums [22:40] Option to add to post count when someone clicks 'thanks'. [22:40] Option to give a user who receives thanks reputation points. [22:40] wow! [22:40] that's impressive [22:41] :) I think our users will like it since the topic has been coming up recently more and more [22:41] so i am +1 on this [22:41] I agree [22:41] +1 [22:41] let's try it out [22:41] this sounds great, +1 [22:41] Yep, if it fails we simply turn it off [22:41] (new toy...making me giddy) [22:41] lol [22:41] +1 [22:41] christmas is early [22:41] either that or it's the cold medicint [22:41] medicine [22:42] good deal [22:42] anything else, or should we move on? [22:42] Lets move on [22:42] move on [22:42] move on [22:43] jdong: Damage control mechanisms. Ways that staff/admin can trigger more moderation power [22:43] I'd like some more information on this one [22:43] well it would be for emergencies like a large incoming spam attack.... [22:43] whether we can limit/moderate registrations, posts by new users.... [22:43] maybe have a way for staff to ban a certain IP from registering [22:44] Ah gotcha, so like a emergency type account if a admin isnt around? [22:44] right [22:44] if we recall from before, there's been cases where a kiddie has been able to fill up like 2-3 pages of junk threads [22:44] jdong, What about a panic button? [22:44] and with the staff's current set of tools, there's no way even 10 staff can work together to combat it [22:44] somerville32: something of that nature, yes [22:45] right off the bat, more obviously, I think the "delete, and infract-ban" action should be streamlined into a one-click ordeal [22:45] the current method feels way too tedious [22:46] maybe if we implement a standard message so that a new one doesn't have to be entered when this is done? [22:46] Well thats more of a work flow/application setting then a permission setting to modify registrations etc etc. [22:47] forumsmatthew: right. If we can reduce it to clicking one button, and then a confirm button, I'd be happy. [22:47] currently there's a form you have to fill out, plus you have to separately delete, and you can only operate one post at a time [22:48] jdong: i see what you mean, we might be able to come up with a better workflow to address that. [22:48] right [22:48] I know the new version of vb is coming out which has some enhancements which might clean this method of banning up. [22:48] but back to moderation techniques, what techniques do you all feel are the most effective for controlling a mass spam wave? [22:49] I think being able to toggle moderation for all users under a postcount of X would be nice [22:49] a full-board moderation would just be a bigger strain on the staff, not a relief [22:51] that sounds useful...I wonder how much of a hack it would require [22:51] with a major vb upgrade coming, maybe we should see what that brings with it? [22:51] then revisit this [22:51] agreed [22:51] Yeah, I think there will be some features to address some of t hese concerns [22:51] ok, then let's table this once the VB 3.7 stuff solidifies [22:52] Sounds good [22:52] agreed [22:52] sounds plannish [22:52] * vorian makes a note [22:52] vorian you are alive [22:53] yeah [22:53] next item? [22:53] just made it home :) [22:53] Mike: Policy on malicious code in post and protecting users from it, and discussion of ForumContentCertification spec [22:54] at UDS-Boston, we had a spec talking about how to curb and correct malicious code that is posted in the forums. [22:54] then we had the recent outbreak of rm -rf crap [22:55] I think malicious code should not be allowed in posts if it is obfuscated, but if given with a proper warning and is clearly written as an example, it could have a pedagogic purpose [22:55] I don't think we are going to be able to completly remove this type of behavior. [22:56] I'm fine with people posting potentially destructive/dangerous command for education or for a legitimate support purpose, as long as it's prefaced with a clear warning of what it does and how dangerous it may be [22:56] jdong: agree'd [22:56] we infract and ban trolls anyway, regardless of whether they have malicious code content, so this may be redundant [22:56] ultimately it's the job of the reader to decide how safe something is, we can't do that for them, but we cannot tolerate deceptive descriptions of command [22:56] s [22:56] agreed [22:56] If someone posts something horrible in a howto its probably already caught by the mod who approves it. [22:56] yep [22:56] i.e. saying "rm -rf will destroy all your data" is different than saying "rm -rf will renew your DHCP lease" [22:56] lol [22:56] :D [22:57] I thought rm -rf / would fix my DRM issues [22:57] only when executed on Cygwin :) [22:57] In the cases where someone says rm -rf al we can do is direct the users not issues such commands and make that clear [22:57] forumsmatthew: it does, but Banshee will not play any more:) [22:57] MikeB: what did the spec originally entail? I'm curious [22:58] MikeB, lol [22:59] 1. a team, new team but I thought the AB team would be better, to help sort though posts and find and maybe edit the bad content [22:59] I guess I don't see any benefits that will actually improve the processes we have in place already. The only benefit would be having that team approve howto's and not staff. [22:59] 2. a rep system to help users tell good helpful posters from trolls [22:59] I think #1 will be good if we extend that to cover not just malicious commands but also potentially risky/unsupported processes. [22:59] We need to remember this is a forum, not a wiki. [23:00] i.e. adding unsafe repositories, unsafe installation procedures, and so on [23:00] MikeB, number 1 - like the current moderator team? [23:00] Im not really ok with giving people permissions to change posts globally. [23:00] we kinda covered #2 today [23:01] I think if we want to create a team to handle new howto's that will be fine. [23:01] yeah, that sounds like a good idea [23:01] I'm good with that [23:01] We'll have to work out the logistics, but I think our staff does a fine job at catching issues in the howto's. [23:01] sure [23:02] I think things are working well now [23:02] ubuntugeek: I agree [23:02] I also think we need some formal guidelines about howto's -- ones involving unsupported procedures should carry (1) A disclaimer, preferably centralized in the official wiki (2) A contact person to consult for troubles arising from the howto [23:02] forumsmatthew: I agree, if its a staffing man power issue we can recruit new staff. [23:02] ubuntugeek, that's what I was thinking [23:02] no need for a new process, another detail [23:02] So lets do this [23:03] Recruit some new staff (5-6) should be a good number we haven't recuited in sometime now. We'll do it the same way we always have. Secondly, we can create a guideline/ruleset for posting new howto's. [23:04] that seems reasonable [23:04] sounds good to me [23:04] * PriceChild feels evil and tasks the new recruits to audit the entire tips and tricks subforum [23:04] +1 from me [23:04] +1 [23:04] +1 [23:05] +1 [23:05] lol [23:05] PriceChild is in charge of tasking the new recruits [23:05] lol [23:05] great! who wishes' to write up the guidelines rules [23:05] ubuntugeek, how soon would you like to have it? [23:05] I'd say within a week or so sounds reasonable. [23:06] Or write up can be voted on for approval at the next FC meeting. [23:06] either way. [23:06] I can do it then, if no one else want to :) [23:07] vorian: go for it:) [23:07] kk [23:07] vorian: do it on the wiki and I'd be glad to pitch in too [23:07] sounds good jdong [23:07] thanks :) [23:07] I just don't have the free time this week and next week to take responsibility for it :) [23:07] Sounds good, write it up and put a reference on the wiki we'll discuss the draft at the next FC meeting or sooner if need be [23:07] MikeBasinger [23:07] Implementing the Ubuntu membership approval by the Forums Council [23:08] MikeB: you got the floor on this one, give us the low down [23:08] the CC is wanting the different council to start approving members [23:08] What will the procedure be? [23:08] since the FC has been going for a year next month, I think we are ready to start [23:09] Do we write our own procedure for this? [23:09] it would be the same as people do for Ubuntu Membership at the CC, sign the code of conduit, write a wiki of work done for Ubuntu [23:10] but the CC will have the final vote correct? [23:10] but we would only consider members whos main body of work in the Ubuntu community has been in the forums [23:10] primarily staff, but not limited to that? [23:10] ubuntugeek, no, for example the "kubuntu council" approves members, the motu council approves members... they're trusted to know what they're doing [23:11] ok, what is the policy for people who try to apply to be member via a shotgun effect? [23:11] ubuntugeek, means the community council can busy themselves with more important matters instead of half a million membership applications a week [23:11] OK, that wasn't how i understood it when we had a discussion awhile back. [23:11] i.e. limits on how many councils they may apply to, etc etc? [23:11] ubuntugeek: I beleieve the CC only looks for problem the FC (or other Council) may have missed [23:11] Right, so if we approve someone do they still need to go the CC? [23:12] ie: forumsjack is a great forums person, always helps, but when he is on irc he insults women [23:12] ubuntugeek: that needs some clearing up from the CC [23:13] MikeB: I don't think you obfuscated my name well enough ;-) [23:13] jdong: BWHAHAHA!!! [23:13] lol [23:13] MikeB: ok lets clarify that. [23:13] ubuntugeek: will do [23:14] MikeB: yeah, I'd like clarification too on the procedure for if someone has recently applied for membership via another method and been turned down [23:14] Lets get the details on that and discuss at the next meeting. [23:14] ubuntugeek, +1 [23:14] ok, there is a wiki for comments on this also [23:14] Ok, lets get some more details outlined from the CC on this. MikeB since you are on the CC you can handle that part :) [23:15] MikeB, do you have a link to that? [23:15] ubuntugeek: ok:) [23:15] next? [23:15] I think its a great idea and hopefully we can move forward. [23:15]