[05:49] <aRyn> @schedule
[05:49] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
[05:49] <aRyn> @schedule london
[05:49] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
[05:50] <aRyn> hm, what's about the today's meeting?
[05:50] <aRyn> it's mssing
[05:50] <aRyn> @logs
[05:50] <aRyn> @log
[05:55] <aRyn> already updated?^^
[08:03] <riri> hi
[08:04] <riri> is meeting being held ?
[12:22]  * highvoltage just got home from many, many hours of driving *shew*
[13:57] <MacSlow> kwwii, hey... go and have holidays! :)
[13:58] <kwwii> hi MacSlow
[13:58] <kwwii> MacSlow: just read your email, nifty stuff
[13:58] <kwwii> cimi posted a pic of the new murrine transparency stuff - and a couple of weeks ago he said it was not possible :p
[13:59] <Riddell> hi
[13:59] <tedg> 'morning
[13:59]  * Keybuk wonders whether you can get RSI in the shoulders from doing push-ups
[14:00] <MacSlow> Keybuk, no only sore muscles
[14:00] <mvo> hello
[14:00] <pitti> hi
[14:00] <Keybuk> ok, let's get started
[14:00] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2007-12-13
[14:00] <Keybuk> first item, outstanding actions from last meeting
[14:01] <Keybuk> kwwii to complete hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme after decision at London presentation
[14:01] <Keybuk> is that still outstanding?
[14:01] <kwwii> Keybuk: almost finished with those specs (and other associated information)
[14:01] <Keybuk> kwwii: you expect to have them completed by next week?
[14:01] <kwwii> they'll be finished and online by tomorrow at the latest
[14:02] <Keybuk> ok
[14:02] <Keybuk> MacSlow to complete drafting of hardy-desktop-effects and other assigned specs expected by the weekend
[14:02] <Keybuk> likewise, how are they going and when do you expect to be finished?
[14:02] <MacSlow> Keybuk, yes by the weekend
[14:03] <Keybuk> ok
[14:04] <Keybuk> please all briefly look through the activity reports
[14:04] <Keybuk> are there any issues anyone would like to discuss?
[14:04] <Keybuk> or points anyone would like to raise?
[14:04] <kwwii> Keybuk: the only oustanding issue I have is that the art.ubuntu.com site is still not up
[14:05] <Keybuk> kwwii: do you have an RT# for that?
[14:05] <kwwii> Keybuk: I will poke mr nuzum and see if he does, I'll email any info to you
[14:05] <pitti> mvo: how does the dapper->gutsy upgrade look ATM? any outstanding major issues? we still need to fix hal&dbus, right?
[14:05] <tedg> I have a question: How did the London presentation go?  Are we still black and orange or brown and off-brown? :)
[14:05] <mvo> pitti: the outstanding major issue is hal&dbus currently
[14:05] <kwwii> tedg: the presentation went well, we are still deciding on quite a few of the issues
[14:06] <Keybuk> kwwii: please do, I can't chase without more details
[14:06] <Keybuk> I'll give that to you as an action
[14:06] <kwwii> great
[14:06] <mvo> pitti: other than this we mostly look good for ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntu-desktop. I haven't tested a lot more yet :/
[14:06] <kwwii> tedg: with those specs that I have to finish is a lot of other information which came from the results of the presentation meeting
[14:06] <MacSlow> kwwii, sorry I could not finish the GL/gtk+ stuff earlier... otherwise I could have giving one more "gun" :)
[14:06] <pitti> mvo: how difficult is it to set up that 'upgrade vs. clean install' diff? would be great to have data early
[14:07] <tedg> kwwii: Cool.  Any spoilers?
[14:07] <kwwii> MacSlow: no worries
[14:08] <kwwii> tedg: the biggest decision for Hardy is that the themeing will not change completely with this release
[14:08] <mvo> pitti: generating the "clan install" state is something I currently don't know how to do automatically
[14:08] <kwwii> we decided that the LTS is the end of the cycle and not the start of the new one
[14:09] <pitti> mvo: how do you create the clean gutsy install for gutsy->hardy upgrade tests? or the dapper one?
[14:10] <tedg> kwwii: Ah, makes sense.  You'll disappoint Slashdot ;)
[14:10] <mvo> pitti: I use jeos-builder and then install additional stuff. I would prefer to diff against ubqiuity though, but for the purpose of the test I could juse jeos-builder for hardy I think
[14:10] <pitti> mvo: unfortunately this is not something I could help with fakechroots, since they aren't powerful enough for maintainer scripts
[14:10] <MacSlow> kwwii, guess that's the reason why we're also giving more time for the face-browser... conservative changes are prefered for LTS
[14:10] <Keybuk> ok
[14:10] <kwwii> MacSlow: well, if you have to support something for a long time it does make sense to not add crack to that release :-)
[14:10] <Keybuk> merges!
[14:10] <pitti> mvo: ah, running an install in qemu would be an option, I guess :) (that's what jeos-builder does, isn't it?)
[14:10] <mvo> pitti: yeah, it needs to run inside kvm :)
[14:11] <Keybuk> http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
[14:11] <MacSlow> kwwii, I like crack ;)
[14:11] <Keybuk> today is the merge freeze
[14:11] <Keybuk> there are still 26 outstanding merges and 60 updated ones
[14:11] <pitti> the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw
[14:11] <mvo> pitti: jeos-builder uses debootstrap and some scripting magic, its not the same as a d-i install (but it should be close enough)
[14:11] <MacSlow> kwwii, the visual kind... at least to some extend
[14:11] <Keybuk> pitti: they did, that's nice to know :-)
[14:11] <mvo> apt, python-apt, synaptic will be ready soon
[14:11] <Keybuk> are there any (*cough* apt) that are best dealt with by our team? :)
[14:11] <pitti> mvo: right; livefs build is just bootstrap plus apt-get install ubuntu-desktop, too (ish)
[14:11] <kwwii> MacSlow: hehe, I like looking at butts too :p
[14:12] <pitti> synaptic
[14:12] <pitti> perhaps
[14:12] <pitti> (although lool TIL)
[14:12]  * mvo takes apt, python-apt, synptic
[14:12] <Keybuk> ok, that's good news
[14:12] <MacSlow> hi seb128
[14:12] <mvo> I can do acpid too if required
[14:12] <Keybuk> we're actually closer now then I think we've ever been in history ;)
[14:12] <seb128> hey
[14:13] <Keybuk> we usually end up with about 50-80 remaining
[14:13] <pitti> the updated ones will always be there, I guess, but at least I will continue to update hal, hal-info, debhelper, etc.
[14:13] <Riddell> digikam is waiting on a new upstream
[14:13] <seb128> closer than what?
[14:13] <mvo> hotkey-setup does not need a merge, our version is ahead of debian (it would only be cosmetic)
[14:13] <seb128> sorry to be late
[14:13] <pitti> hey seb128
[14:13] <seb128> are you discussing merges?
[14:13] <pitti> yes
[14:13] <pitti>     pitti| the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw
[14:13] <pitti> seb128: ^ that's what you told me, right?
[14:13] <seb128> you are aware that the remaining ones have mostly been distribued during the platform team meeting yesterday?
[14:13] <mvo> python-distutils-extra is in debian with a ubuntu version number :) that is why it shows up in the merges, its not required to merge
[14:13] <seb128> pitti: yes
[14:14] <pitti> seb128: yep; mvo is taking apt/synaptic & friends, though
[14:14] <pitti> mvo: discussed with Scott already, we'll just ignore it for now
[14:14] <Keybuk> ok
[14:14] <Keybuk> pitti: Ptrace protection
[14:14] <seb128> pitti: Colin said that apt was work in progress and we let it to mvo
[14:15] <pitti> not sure how many of you read the debian-devel@ thread or the PolicyKitINtegration spec
[14:15] <pitti> summary: we want a way to disable ptrace()/LD_PRELOAD for some programs which deal with passwords or other secrets
[14:15] <pitti> so that a local trojan can't gdb them and grab the passwords, etc.
[14:16] <pitti> admittedly this is a very strong attack scenario already (local trojan), and from there it's relatively easy to get the user's password by spoofing
[14:17] <pitti> but some weeks ago I thought about ways how to at least disable the 'quiet' password stealing (without extra spoofed dialogs, etc.)
[14:17] <pitti> so, debian doesn't like the 'setgid noptrace' trick, since it's too much of a hack
[14:17] <pitti> so I wonder whether we should go the kernel patch route (cleaner design, but needs kernel change), or give up on the idea at all
[14:18] <pitti> keeping a delta like the 'setgid ptrace' in ubuntu forever is a pretty high investment, so I wouldn't like to do that
[14:18] <Keybuk> have we done any investigation to the kernel route?
[14:18] <Keybuk> do we know how possible/difficult it is?
[14:18] <pitti> possible: yes, difficult: no idea yet
[14:19] <Keybuk> it sounds like this needs to be investigated a little then
[14:19] <pitti> (discussion is still pretty fresh)
[14:19] <Keybuk> doko: don't suppose you know much about ELF headers and respecting them in the kernel
[14:19] <doko> Keybuk: no, not yet my topic. sorry
[14:20] <pitti> Keybuk: so you at least don't oppose to the "do not do it in Ubuntu only" attitude?
[14:20] <Keybuk> right, it's a large delta for a smaller gain
[14:20] <pitti> I agree; the spec says to do it, though, so I at least want consent that we might change that
[14:20] <pitti> it's not an essential part of it, just a little better proactive security
[14:21] <pitti> so I'll talk to the kernel guys and investigate whether it's feasible for hardy
[14:21] <pitti> if yes, we'll do it and I modify the spec accordingly; if not, we'll just forget it
[14:21] <pitti> ok?
[14:21] <Keybuk> ok
[14:22] <Keybuk> yup
[14:22] <Keybuk> if you're happy with that
[14:22] <pitti> I am
[14:22] <Keybuk> ok
[14:22] <Keybuk> any other business?
[14:23] <seb128> Keybuk: I was late, but while discussing themes, is ubuntulooks being superseded or is anybody going to work on it?
[14:23] <Keybuk> not for hardy
[14:23] <seb128> DOH
[14:23] <seb128> ok
[14:24] <seb128> I guess I should try to have a look at the bugs again then
[14:24] <seb128> there is quite some issues with it apparently
[14:24] <seb128> joy
[14:24] <Keybuk> not being superseded in hardy, that is
[14:24] <Keybuk> what are the known issues? do you have a quick summary of them?
[14:25] <seb128> nothing handy right now, no, I commit some patches every now and then
[14:25] <seb128> leaks, bugs, crasher with firefox3, no way to select theme colors as with other modern themes, etc
[14:25] <Keybuk> we can certainly find ways to help you with known issues
[14:25] <seb128> I was sort of expecting to have a better quality or maintained theme for the lts
[14:26] <Keybuk> the decision was that a new theme was too major for an LTS
[14:26] <Keybuk> and that an LTS should be the final opus of the theme
[14:26] <seb128> ok, will do a summary of things that would be nice to fix and let you know
[14:26] <Keybuk> with the new one started for LTS+1 and achieving perfection by the next LTS
[14:26] <Keybuk> ok
[14:26] <Keybuk> thanks
[14:27] <Keybuk> KristianL: around?
[14:27] <KristianL> yup
[14:28] <Keybuk> sorry for grabbing you last
[14:28] <MacSlow> hi KristianL
[14:28] <KristianL> no worries, and hi MacSlow
[14:28] <Keybuk> for those that don't know, Kristian is working on a compiz plugin for us from an idea by one of the Canonical staff
[14:28] <Keybuk> mvo, MacSlow: have you had chance to play with the plugin yet?  Any feedback?
[14:28] <seb128> what is the plugin doing?
[14:29] <MacSlow> Keybuk, no but still on my todo for today
[14:29] <KristianL> same as miniwin tried to do a year++ ago; scale down windows visually. Think of download dialogs and chat windows
[14:29] <mvo> I played with it a bit
[14:29] <mvo> its quite nice, a nice idea
[14:30] <mvo> and works already quite well (the only issue I found was that the resize outline was not scaled down as well)
[14:30] <KristianL> it should be now mvo, but I still need to stick a fake window on top, since you still have access to the upper left corner of the window with the mouse.
[14:30] <MacSlow> KristianL, so questions/suggestions/patches for that plugin should go your way?!
[14:31] <KristianL> yeah
[14:31] <Keybuk> absolutely
[14:31] <Keybuk> KristianL: and please provide mvo and macslow with access to the code on as regular basis as you can
[14:31] <mvo> KristianL: aha, ok. I played with it this morning
[14:31] <Keybuk> (if you have it in a vcs, so much the better)
[14:31] <mvo> its in git already, no?
[14:31] <KristianL> it's on git already, yeah
[14:33] <Keybuk> cool, thanks
[14:33] <Keybuk> unless there's anything else, let's adjourn for now
[14:34]  * Riddell bigs up Kubuntu Tutorials Day in half an hour in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[14:34] <Riddell> just for all those who want to learn how to package or use PyQt :)
[14:34] <Hobbsee> come to the dark side!
[14:35] <pitti> "blue" rather
[14:35] <Hobbsee> perhaps kubuntu should turn black next, then.
[17:15] <aRyn> what's about the Desktop Team Development Meeting?
[17:19] <stdin> aRyn: see the topic, it's on the 20th
[17:20] <aRyn> hm, the calenda says totday.. from the fridge
[17:20] <aRyn> on 20th is jsut the next one
[17:21] <stdin> aRyn: that was at 14:00 - 15:00 UTC it's not 17:22 UTC
[17:22] <stdin> s/not/now
[17:22] <aRyn> yeah, i know, but there wasn
[17:22] <aRyn> 't any
[17:22] <stdin> my log shows there was one at 14:00
[17:23] <aRyn> i joined hours before (not to miss it), but everything is empty
[17:23] <pochu> There was one.
[17:23] <pochu> !logs | aRyn
[17:23] <ubotu> aRyn: Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
[17:23] <aRyn> ok
[17:24] <pochu> aRyn: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2007-December/001307.html
[17:57] <aRyn> thx
[17:59] <PriceChild> @schedule
[17:59] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
[22:31] <MikeB> we will start the forums council meeting in a couple of minutes
[22:31] <jdong> sounds good
[22:32] <forumsmatthew> I'm here
[22:34] <MikeB> howdy
[22:34] <ubuntugeek> afternoon
[22:34] <ubuntugeek> We ready to rock this meeting?
[22:34] <MikeB> think so
[22:35] <forumsmatthew> all set here
[22:35] <jdong> let's do it!
[22:35]  * jdong pulls up agenda :)
[22:35] <MikeB> [22:35] <ubuntugeek> alrght
[22:36] <MikeB> jdong: Implementing a positive feedback "Reputation" system
[22:36] <ubuntugeek> Sounds good! I found a really nice way to implement a thank you system into the forums
[22:36] <jdong> cool
[22:37] <forumsmatthew> how's it work?
[22:37] <ubuntugeek> If a users finds a post useful they can give a thank you
[22:37] <MikeB> great
[22:37] <forumsmatthew> nice
[22:37] <ubuntugeek> it will then show on the users profile, like a bean count
[22:37] <jdong> ah, that's cool
[22:37] <jdong> does it let you track back which post the thankyou came from?
[22:38] <forumsmatthew> do you think we will need to keep an eye out for "please thank me" posts, or am I just being over cautious?
[22:38] <jdong> forumsmatthew: that might happen, we should have something in our policies to discourage blatantly asking for mod-ups
[22:39] <MikeB> forumsmatthew:  maybe a policy, asking for a thank you gets all thanks removed
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Yeah we can moderate the thank you's etc..
[22:39] <forumsmatthew> MikeB, ooh. I like that
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Users can't thank twice
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Option to not allow users to thank their own post
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Guests don't see 'thanks' button
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Counts how many thanks a user gives
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Counts how many thanks a post gets
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user gave in every post of his
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user gave in profile
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user got
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Shows how many posts or a user are thanked
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Shows info in profile
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Search for a users thanked posts
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Search for all thanked posts
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Administrator can remove all Thanks from a single post
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Users can remove their own Thanks
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Turn on and off hack totally
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Turn on and off hack for only some forums
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread in specific forums
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack view of date for specific or all forums
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Option to add to post count when someone clicks 'thanks'.
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> Option to give a user who receives thanks reputation points.
[22:40] <forumsmatthew> wow!
[22:40] <jdong> that's impressive
[22:41] <ubuntugeek> :) I think our users will like it since the topic has been coming up recently more and more
[22:41] <ubuntugeek> so i am +1 on this
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> I agree
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> +1
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> let's try it out
[22:41] <MikeB> this sounds great, +1
[22:41] <ubuntugeek> Yep, if it fails we simply turn it off
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> (new toy...making me giddy)
[22:41] <ubuntugeek> lol
[22:41] <jdong> +1
[22:41] <MikeB> christmas is early
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> either that or it's the cold medicint
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> medicine
[22:42] <ubuntugeek> good deal
[22:42] <MikeB> anything else, or should we move on?
[22:42] <ubuntugeek> Lets move on
[22:42] <jdong> move on
[22:42] <forumsmatthew> move on
[22:43] <MikeB> jdong: Damage control mechanisms. Ways that staff/admin can trigger more moderation power
[22:43] <ubuntugeek> I'd like some more information on this one
[22:43] <jdong> well it would be for emergencies like a large incoming spam attack....
[22:43] <jdong> whether we can limit/moderate registrations, posts by new users....
[22:43] <jdong> maybe have a way for staff to ban a certain IP from registering
[22:44] <ubuntugeek> Ah gotcha, so like a emergency type account if a admin isnt around?
[22:44] <jdong> right
[22:44] <jdong> if we recall from before, there's been cases where a kiddie has been able to fill up like 2-3 pages of junk threads
[22:44] <somerville32> jdong, What about a panic button?
[22:44] <jdong> and with the staff's current set of tools, there's no way even 10 staff can work together to combat it
[22:44] <jdong> somerville32: something of that nature, yes
[22:45] <jdong> right off the bat, more obviously, I think the "delete, and infract-ban" action should be streamlined into a one-click ordeal
[22:45] <jdong> the current method feels way too tedious
[22:46] <forumsmatthew> maybe if we implement a standard message so that a new one doesn't have to be entered when this is done?
[22:46] <ubuntugeek> Well thats more of a work flow/application setting then a permission setting to modify registrations etc etc.
[22:47] <jdong> forumsmatthew: right. If we can reduce it to clicking one button, and then a confirm button, I'd be happy.
[22:47] <jdong> currently there's a form you have to fill out, plus you have to separately delete, and you can only operate one post at a time
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> jdong: i see what you mean, we might be able to come up with a better workflow to address that.
[22:48] <jdong> right
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> I know the new version of vb is coming out which has some enhancements which might clean this method of banning up.
[22:48] <jdong> but back to moderation techniques, what techniques do you all feel are the most effective for controlling a mass spam wave?
[22:49] <jdong> I think being able to toggle moderation for all users under a postcount of X would be nice
[22:49] <jdong> a full-board moderation would just be a bigger strain on the staff, not a relief
[22:51] <forumsmatthew> that sounds useful...I wonder how much of a hack it would require
[22:51] <forumsmatthew> with a major vb upgrade coming, maybe we should see what that brings with it?
[22:51] <forumsmatthew> then revisit this
[22:51] <jdong> agreed
[22:51] <ubuntugeek> Yeah, I think there will be some features to address some of t hese concerns
[22:51] <jdong> ok, then let's table this once the VB 3.7 stuff solidifies
[22:52] <ubuntugeek> Sounds good
[22:52] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[22:52] <MikeB> sounds plannish
[22:52]  * vorian makes a note
[22:52] <ubuntugeek> vorian you are alive
[22:53] <vorian> yeah
[22:53] <forumsmatthew> next item?
[22:53] <vorian> just made it home :)
[22:53] <MikeB> Mike: Policy on malicious code in post and protecting users from it, and discussion of ForumContentCertification spec
[22:54] <MikeB> at UDS-Boston, we had a spec talking about how to curb and correct malicious code that is posted in the forums.
[22:54] <MikeB> then we had the recent outbreak of rm -rf crap
[22:55] <forumsmatthew> I think malicious code should not be allowed in posts if it is obfuscated, but if given with a proper warning and is clearly written as an example, it could have a pedagogic purpose
[22:55] <ubuntugeek> I don't think we are going to be able to completly remove this type of behavior.
[22:56] <jdong> I'm fine with people posting potentially destructive/dangerous command for education or for a legitimate support purpose, as long as it's prefaced with a clear warning of what it does and how dangerous it may be
[22:56] <ubuntugeek> jdong: agree'd
[22:56] <forumsmatthew> we infract and ban trolls anyway, regardless of whether they have malicious code content, so this may be redundant
[22:56] <jdong> ultimately it's the job of the reader to decide how safe something is, we can't do that for them, but we cannot tolerate deceptive descriptions of command
[22:56] <jdong> s
[22:56] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[22:56] <ubuntugeek> If someone posts something horrible in a howto its probably already caught by the mod who approves it.
[22:56] <vorian> yep
[22:56] <jdong> i.e. saying "rm -rf will destroy all your data" is different than saying "rm -rf will renew your DHCP lease"
[22:56] <forumsmatthew> lol
[22:56] <jdong> :D
[22:57] <forumsmatthew> I thought rm -rf / would fix my DRM issues
[22:57] <jdong> only when executed on Cygwin :)
[22:57] <ubuntugeek> In the cases where someone says rm -rf al we can do is direct the users not issues such commands and make that clear
[22:57] <MikeB> forumsmatthew: it does, but Banshee will not play any more:)
[22:57] <jdong> MikeB: what did the spec originally entail? I'm curious
[22:58] <forumsmatthew> MikeB, lol
[22:59] <MikeB> 1. a team, new team but I thought the AB team would be better, to help sort though posts and find and maybe edit the bad content
[22:59] <ubuntugeek> I guess I don't see any benefits that will actually improve the processes we have in place already. The only benefit would be having that team approve howto's and not staff.
[22:59] <MikeB> 2. a rep system to help users tell good  helpful posters from trolls
[22:59] <jdong> I think #1 will be good if we extend that to cover not just malicious commands but also potentially risky/unsupported processes.
[22:59] <ubuntugeek> We need to remember this is a forum, not a wiki.
[23:00] <jdong> i.e. adding unsafe repositories, unsafe installation procedures, and so on
[23:00] <PriceChild> MikeB, number 1 - like the current moderator team?
[23:00] <ubuntugeek> Im not really ok with giving people permissions to change posts globally.
[23:00] <MikeB> we kinda covered #2 today
[23:01] <ubuntugeek> I think if we want to create a team to handle new howto's that will be fine.
[23:01] <jdong> yeah, that sounds like a good idea
[23:01] <MikeB> I'm good with that
[23:01] <ubuntugeek> We'll have to work out the logistics, but I think our staff does a fine job at catching issues in the howto's.
[23:01] <forumsmatthew> sure
[23:02] <forumsmatthew> I think things are working well now
[23:02] <MikeB> ubuntugeek: I agree
[23:02] <jdong> I also think we need some formal guidelines about howto's -- ones involving unsupported procedures should carry (1) A disclaimer, preferably centralized in the official wiki (2) A contact person to consult for troubles arising from the howto
[23:02] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: I agree, if its a staffing man power issue we can recruit new staff.
[23:02] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, that's what I was thinking
[23:02] <forumsmatthew> no need for a new process, another detail
[23:02] <ubuntugeek> So lets do this
[23:03] <ubuntugeek> Recruit some new staff (5-6) should be a good number we haven't recuited in sometime now. We'll do it the same way we always have. Secondly, we can create a guideline/ruleset for posting new howto's.
[23:04] <forumsmatthew> that seems reasonable
[23:04] <MikeB> sounds good to me
[23:04]  * PriceChild feels evil and tasks the new recruits to audit the entire tips and tricks subforum
[23:04] <ubuntugeek> +1 from me
[23:04] <MikeB> +1
[23:04] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:05] <jdong> +1
[23:05] <vorian> lol
[23:05] <forumsmatthew> PriceChild is in charge of tasking the new recruits
[23:05] <jdong> lol
[23:05] <ubuntugeek> great! who wishes' to write up the guidelines rules
[23:05] <vorian> ubuntugeek, how soon would you like to have it?
[23:05] <ubuntugeek> I'd say within a week or so sounds reasonable.
[23:06] <ubuntugeek> Or write up can be voted on for approval at the next FC meeting.
[23:06] <ubuntugeek> either way.
[23:06] <vorian> I can do it then, if no one else want to :)
[23:07] <MikeB> vorian: go for it:)
[23:07] <vorian> kk
[23:07] <jdong> vorian: do it on the wiki and I'd be glad to pitch in too
[23:07] <vorian> sounds good jdong
[23:07] <vorian> thanks :)
[23:07] <jdong> I just don't have the free time this week and next week to take responsibility for it :)
[23:07] <ubuntugeek> Sounds good, write it up and put a reference on the wiki we'll discuss the draft at the next FC meeting or sooner if need be
[23:07] <ubuntugeek> MikeBasinger
[23:07] <ubuntugeek> Implementing the Ubuntu membership approval by the Forums Council
[23:08] <ubuntugeek> MikeB: you got the floor on this one, give us the low down
[23:08] <MikeB> the CC is wanting the different council to start approving members
[23:08] <ubuntugeek> What will the procedure be?
[23:08] <MikeB> since the FC has been going for a year next month, I think we are ready to start
[23:09] <forumsmatthew> Do we write our own procedure for this?
[23:09] <MikeB> it would be the same as people do for Ubuntu Membership at the CC, sign the code of conduit, write a wiki of work done for Ubuntu
[23:10] <ubuntugeek> but the CC will have the final vote correct?
[23:10] <MikeB> but we would only consider members whos main body of work in the Ubuntu community has been in the forums
[23:10] <forumsmatthew> primarily staff, but not limited to that?
[23:10] <PriceChild> ubuntugeek, no, for example the "kubuntu council" approves members, the motu council approves members... they're trusted to know what they're doing
[23:11] <jdong> ok, what is the policy for people who try to apply to be member via a shotgun effect?
[23:11] <PriceChild> ubuntugeek, means the community council can busy themselves with more important matters instead of half a million membership applications a week
[23:11] <ubuntugeek> OK, that wasn't how i understood it when we had a discussion awhile back.
[23:11] <jdong> i.e. limits on how many councils they may apply to, etc etc?
[23:11] <MikeB> ubuntugeek: I beleieve the CC only looks for problem the FC (or other Council) may have missed
[23:11] <ubuntugeek> Right, so if we approve someone do they still need to go the CC?
[23:12] <MikeB> ie: forumsjack is a great forums person, always helps, but when he is on irc he insults women
[23:12] <MikeB> ubuntugeek: that needs some clearing up from the CC
[23:13] <jdong> MikeB: I don't think you obfuscated my name well enough ;-)
[23:13] <MikeB> jdong: BWHAHAHA!!!
[23:13] <jdong> lol
[23:13] <ubuntugeek> MikeB: ok lets clarify that.
[23:13] <MikeB> ubuntugeek: will do
[23:14] <jdong> MikeB: yeah, I'd like clarification too on the procedure for if someone has recently applied for membership via another method and been turned down
[23:14] <ubuntugeek> Lets get the details on that and discuss at the next meeting.
[23:14] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, +1
[23:14] <MikeB> ok, there is a wiki for comments on this also
[23:14] <ubuntugeek> Ok, lets get some more details outlined from the CC on this. MikeB since you are on the CC you can handle that part :)
[23:15] <forumsmatthew> MikeB, do you have a link to that?
[23:15] <MikeB> ubuntugeek: ok:)
[23:15] <MikeB> next?
[23:15] <ubuntugeek> I think its a great idea and hopefully we can move forward.
[23:15] <jdong> yeah, I look forward to it
[23:16] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:16] <ubuntugeek> I think we need to have some forum procedures in place first.
[23:16] <jdong> ubuntugeek: do you want to talk forum procedures for it now, or when we know the CC procedure?
[23:16] <jdong> (it's pretty independent)
[23:16] <ubuntugeek> The user should be really active on the forums for one.
[23:16] <vorian> what about membership for staffers?
[23:16] <ubuntugeek> No just needed to rmable :)
[23:16] <ubuntugeek> staffers are already by default members if they wish
[23:17] <jdong> ok, so we need an application process and a set of criteria :)
[23:17] <ubuntugeek> jdong: we can do it next meeting when we get more details. I make a note on the wiki with my thoughts.
[23:17] <ubuntugeek> MikeBasinger
[23:17] <ubuntugeek> Ubuntu teams members as mods in their area
[23:17] <jdong> ok, cool, again, let's put this up on the wiki so we can come in prepared with preforumlated ideas/proposals
[23:17] <ubuntugeek> agreed.
[23:18] <jdong> MikeB: what would be the nature of the reasons they want mod access?
[23:18] <MikeB> we got a couple of request from Ubuntu team member is that could mod their team area in the forum
[23:18] <ubuntugeek> MikeB: I dont understand the request to be honest.
[23:18] <jdong> I'd be readily willing to give them sticking/moving type privs
[23:18] <forumsmatthew> what teams?
[23:18] <vorian> I thought we were already kind of doing that
[23:18] <MikeB> we got one request on the FC mailing
[23:18] <jdong> but editing, infracting, locking, I'm more uncomfortable about
[23:19] <forumsmatthew> loco leaders have mod privileges in their areas...
[23:19] <MikeB> and the MOTUs wants a mod in the packaging forum, mostly to post stickies
[23:19] <vorian> jdong is a MOTU
[23:19] <forumsmatthew> okay, I remember seeing that on the mailing list
[23:20] <ubuntugeek> MikeB: thats fine we can do that. I think giving someone mod acesss to a already existing team with already existing leaders will causes problems though.
[23:20] <forumsmatthew> jdong offered to do that when asked, if I recall correctly
[23:20] <MikeB> jdong: Ram-Man, Man-E-Faces?
[23:20] <jdong> :)
[23:21] <jdong> ok, for sticking/unsticking, is the report post mechanism not fast enough?
[23:21] <jdong> I think we respond to those pretty instantaneously
[23:21] <PriceChild> Have they tried? :/
[23:21] <ubuntugeek> Jdong: yeah i kinda feel the same way on that.
[23:21] <forumsmatthew> jdong, +1
[23:21] <ubuntugeek> I don't think just because someone is a member they should be a mod on a team.
[23:21] <jdong> I mean, if they demonstrated "I requested this sticked and 2 days later, nothing", then let's revisit this
[23:21] <jdong> otherwise, I think report posts is the correct solution
[23:22] <ubuntugeek> jdong: +1
[23:22]  * vorian nods
[23:22] <forumsmatthew> +1, let's give the current system a chance before making changes
[23:22] <MikeB> ok
[23:23] <MikeB> +1
[23:23] <ubuntugeek> good deal!
[23:23] <ubuntugeek> Anything else?
[23:24] <MikeB> none here
[23:24] <jdong> nope
[23:24] <forumsmatthew> nothing from me
[23:25] <ubuntugeek> Shall we reschedule for the same day/time next month?
[23:25] <ubuntugeek> since we are all here we can get that out of the way
[23:25] <PriceChild> Kiwi?
[23:25] <MikeB> we should find a time good for Kiwi
[23:25] <forumsmatthew> January 13th is a Sunday, fine with me, but were you thinking of the second Thursday?
[23:26] <forumsmatthew> It would be nice if Kiwi could make it
[23:26] <jdong> my schedule should be extremely open next month, let's find a time that kiwi can make it
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> Ok i'll email the FC list and get times.
[23:26] <forumsmatthew> sounds good
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> vorian i'll let you know what we come up with
[23:27] <MikeB> forumsmatthew: feel better
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> MikeB, thanks!
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> You sick matthew?
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> I'm off for some sleep, before the cold meds wear off
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> Yeah, flu
[23:27] <jdong> aww take care, drink your fluids, and so on
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> Oh man.. go to bed..
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> That's why I couldn't think of a good troll this month
[23:28] <ubuntugeek> hah
[23:28] <ubuntugeek> there is always next month
[23:28] <forumsmatthew> lol
[23:28] <ubuntugeek> Take care everyone..
[23:28] <forumsmatthew> 'night, all!
[23:28] <jdong> bye
[23:28] <MikeB> night
[23:30] <MikeB>