| DanaG | Ooh, this DOES look cool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| DanaG | Though I still like Aurora. | 00:06 |
| Toma- | impossible with the current gnome software | 00:08 |
| * tehk can't wait for murrine 0.60 and translucent windows | 01:28 | |
| Toma- | its fake transparency right? | 01:29 |
| Toma- | it wouldnt be dependant on a compmgr | 01:29 |
| DanaG | Actually, it seems to be real transparency. | 01:35 |
| DanaG | http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/12/12/gnome-theme-engine-designer-adds-transparency-to-gtk | 01:36 |
| Toma- | The translucency effects obviously require a compositing window manager, but the theme engine is designed so that the widgets will simply be rendered without transparency when no compositing window manager is present. | 01:39 |
| tehk | Yea so scaling is alreay there | 01:52 |
| DanaG | WTF? I just scrolled and stopped, and the screen kept scrolling for another 3 pages. | 01:53 |
| === elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu | ||
| lapo | hi | 10:35 |
| === nothlit_ is now known as nothlit | ||
| cursor | ello | 15:45 |
| mgunes | Is it a good idea to have Ubuntu branding instead of GNOME in gnome-system-monitor's "System" tab? | 19:16 |
| kwwii | no, we decided not to brand that | 19:52 |
| kwwii | we want to stay away from branding everything ubuntu | 19:53 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, ping | 22:04 |
| kwwii | somerville32: pong | 22:05 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, I can package. | 22:05 |
| kwwii | somerville32: killer, that would be great | 22:05 |
| kwwii | it is not like the tings we do are very hard or technicaly challending | 22:05 |
| kwwii | erm, you get my point | 22:05 |
| somerville32 | I'm surprised you guys are having trouble finding people to do it | 22:05 |
| kwwii | yeah, I assumed that people would step up and help | 22:06 |
| kwwii | the first thing we want to do is put the elephant wallpaper as the default version for Hardy | 22:06 |
| somerville32 | One question | 22:06 |
| somerville32 | Is there an artwork council? | 22:06 |
| kwwii | that means moving the package to a new name and moving the current pics around | 22:06 |
| kwwii | no, there is no artwork council, I am the boss :p | 22:07 |
| somerville32 | Ok. | 22:07 |
| kwwii | actually, mark is the boss | 22:07 |
| kwwii | and I am just the appointed person doing his bidding | 22:07 |
| _MMA_ | No, there's a problem finding a "dedicated" person to do it. ;) | 22:07 |
| kwwii | as i work for canonical it makes most sense to do things through me | 22:07 |
| kwwii | as I can ask developers for favors that they kinda *have* to do ;-) | 22:08 |
| somerville32 | lol | 22:08 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: And what the hell are you doing around anyway? :) Shouldnt you be kicking back with a beer somewhere? | 22:08 |
| kwwii | _MMA_: has to watch my kid while my wife is at a christmas party | 22:09 |
| kwwii | and as he just went to bed I just popped open a beer :-) | 22:09 |
| _MMA_ | Ahh... ;) | 22:09 |
| kwwii | get this...I found a couple of other people who have their own companies or work from home and we are all going out on monday to have our own christmas party | 22:10 |
| * _MMA_ waits for a pizza. Then is gonna watch movies with the kids. (ironically while the wife also goes to a party) ;) | 22:10 | |
| kwwii | ;-) | 22:11 |
| kwwii | it is that time of the year | 22:11 |
| _MMA_ | Yep. hehe. "Work from home Christmas party." Neat. | 22:11 |
| kwwii | actually, since I started renting an office away from home I really notice the difference | 22:12 |
| kwwii | it is really nice to have a place to go and other people to see | 22:12 |
| _MMA_ | Yeah. I can imagine. Thats killing me now and I can wait to go back to work. | 22:12 |
| _MMA_ | I love 'em but I swear I wanna kill 'em more often now. :) | 22:13 |
| somerville32 | :) | 22:13 |
| kwwii | getting away from home is really important now and again | 22:13 |
| kwwii | btw. this is for everyone: | 22:13 |
| kwwii | I updated the specs for hardy | 22:13 |
| kwwii | so everyone knows where we stand | 22:14 |
| kwwii | more info coming soon | 22:14 |
| kwwii | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/ | 22:14 |
| kwwii | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyIconTheme and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme | 22:14 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, so, what do you want me to do? | 22:15 |
| kwwii | somerville32: for now, we need to update gutsy-wallpapers | 22:15 |
| kwwii | which means we need to make a new package called hardy-wallpapers | 22:16 |
| _MMA_ | somerville32: *IF* you do this you should also coordinate with TheMuso as he is coming up with a more manageable system for Ubuntu Studio's art. | 22:16 |
| kwwii | and switch the current default and the elephant wallpapers | 22:16 |
| kwwii | as far as the wallpapers go we need to think of a better way to update things | 22:17 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: Its nuts to make a new package just for a wallpaper update. | 22:17 |
| kwwii | as now we use a certain filename to set it | 22:17 |
| kwwii | _MMA_: it is either that or get away from the release names at all | 22:17 |
| somerville32 | Why are you creating new packages? | 22:17 |
| _MMA_ | Id just update the Gutsy one and really look at the system Luke is coming up with. | 22:17 |
| kwwii | somerville32: the important part is that the name of the package changes | 22:17 |
| kwwii | _MMA_: yes, we can do that, but we should all work together to find the best solution | 22:18 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, Why not just put it in a ubuntu-artwork package or something? | 22:18 |
| kwwii | somerville32: yeah, that is what I thought too | 22:18 |
| kwwii | we do not have one package which includes all the themeing | 22:18 |
| kwwii | the reason seems to be that this way we can allow people to install older artwork packages without removing the current | 22:19 |
| _MMA_ | somerville32: Just talk to TheMuso. I dont want you running off and duplicating efforts. | 22:19 |
| _MMA_ | Our plan is to have 1 source package that generated all the needed binary packages. | 22:20 |
| _MMA_ | *generates | 22:20 |
| kwwii | while that is interesting I am not certain that it is the best way to go about it | 22:20 |
| kwwii | although kubuntu does it like that for ever and it works really well | 22:21 |
| _MMA_ | It would be fine. | 22:21 |
| kwwii | you need someone who really knows what they are doing to update something or a simple mistake breaks everything | 22:21 |
| _MMA_ | What dont you think would work? | 22:21 |
| kwwii | and changing one thing requires rebuilding almost everything in the whole desktop | 22:21 |
| _MMA_ | Naa.... | 22:21 |
| somerville32 | Why do we need multiple binary packages? | 22:22 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: It really shouldnt be that bug a deal. | 22:22 |
| _MMA_ | somerville32: Because not everyone would want to install it all. | 22:22 |
| somerville32 | Fair enough | 22:22 |
| kwwii | well, we also have different releases of that package for every variant and release | 22:23 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: Why? | 22:25 |
| _MMA_ | Well, actually, For some parts yes. | 22:25 |
| kwwii | ;-) | 22:26 |
| _MMA_ | But it shouldnt be a big deal at all. | 22:26 |
| kwwii | see how having one big package does change the way you have to do things? | 22:26 |
| _MMA_ | Because you can still depend on the binary packages. | 22:26 |
| _MMA_ | Sure but it shouldnt be an issue really. Ubuntu Studio's art should be different from Ubuntu. But I can still depend on a binary package the comes out of Ubuntus. | 22:27 |
| kwwii | oh it is certainly doable | 22:29 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: Show me exactly how it will be an issue, but I gotta read it later. Kids are calling me. :) | 22:29 |
| kwwii | dude, I am not sure that it will be a real problem, I am just asking open questions :p | 22:30 |
| somerville32 | Hey TheMuso | 22:31 |
| somerville32 | We were just talking about packaging for Artwork | 22:31 |
| somerville32 | TheMuso, _MMA_ says that you're looking at ways to improve the process? | 22:31 |
| TheMuso | Right. | 22:31 |
| TheMuso | Yes I am. | 22:32 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, said that he is looking for packages and I've volunteered. _MMA_ recommends I coordinate with you. | 22:32 |
| kwwii | no matter what we do, I don't want to waste anyones time | 22:33 |
| TheMuso | Understandable. | 22:33 |
| TheMuso | somerville32: SO what do you know so far about the current way the artwork is packaged? | 22:34 |
| somerville32 | TheMuso, That there is a new package for each release | 22:34 |
| TheMuso | somerville32: SO you haven't dug any further yet | 22:34 |
| somerville32 | No, I've only started speaking with kwwii 30 minutes ago | 22:35 |
| TheMuso | Right. | 22:36 |
| kwwii | many packages are just small pieces of the themeing which get updated every release, and some have release specific names | 22:36 |
| TheMuso | kwwii: Yeah I know, ubuntustudio is kinda the same. | 22:37 |
| TheMuso | somerville32: Well, in its curren state, the artwork for Ubuntu uses autoconf/automake. | 22:37 |
| * somerville32 nods. | 22:38 | |
| kwwii | not all of it | 22:38 |
| TheMuso | kwwii: The ubuntu-artwork package proper is though afaik. | 22:40 |
| TheMuso | sorry the icon theme | 22:41 |
| kwwii | right | 22:41 |
| TheMuso | Thats the one I'm looking at improving packaging for. | 22:42 |
| TheMuso | Since ours is based on autoconf/automake, ours being ubuntustudio | 22:42 |
| kwwii | many of our packages use python instead | 22:42 |
| kwwii | it has proven to be much easier | 22:42 |
| TheMuso | Python-distutils, yeah agreed. | 22:43 |
| kwwii | exactly | 22:43 |
| TheMuso | I'm thinking that is a good option for icon-theme. | 22:43 |
| kwwii | basically, I know enough to know how much I don't know :p | 22:44 |
| kwwii | yeah, moving the icon them from using a makefile would be a big improvement | 22:44 |
| TheMuso | bbl, gotta go do chores, but I'll have a think about whats required to switch to distutils, considering there are so many icon dirs. | 22:44 |
| kwwii | cool, see you around | 22:45 |
| kwwii | somerville32: in any case, if we can at least update the stuff for hardy to use the elephant wallpaper as default instead of the current gutsy default it would be a good step forward | 22:46 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, and you want this in a new s/b package for now? | 22:47 |
| kwwii | somerville32: yeah, that seems like the best step at this time | 22:47 |
| _MMA_ | I dont think it needs to be. | 22:48 |
| _MMA_ | That requires changing depends on other packages. | 22:48 |
| _MMA_ | Just keep using the Gutsy package with the default changed. | 22:49 |
| _MMA_ | *Gutsy named. | 22:49 |
| _MMA_ | That way you dont have to touch "ubuntu-artwork" as well. | 22:50 |
| _MMA_ | *IF* this is a temporary solution that is. | 22:51 |
| kwwii | I do not think that at this time you have to touch ubuntu-artwork as well | 22:52 |
| _MMA_ | If you create a new package yes you will. | 22:52 |
| kwwii | hrm, you might be right | 22:52 |
| kwwii | seb128 would know more | 22:52 |
| kwwii | but if we have to do that, I can just tell him to do it :p | 22:53 |
| somerville32 | I can update ubuntu-artwork too if needed | 22:53 |
| somerville32 | kwwii, It is your call | 22:53 |
| _MMA_ | Dammit. Just do like I said. :P Its 2 changes. | 22:53 |
| kwwii | we should just ask seb | 22:53 |
| kwwii | but it makes little sense logically to update a package for hardy called "gutsy-wallpapers" | 22:54 |
| _MMA_ | Well he would have to push the changes to the archive anyway. | 22:54 |
| kwwii | then there would be no chance to install that package logically on a newer system | 22:54 |
| _MMA_ | But that only if you're sticking with the current packaging scheme. | 22:54 |
| _MMA_ | This can just be temp like I daid. | 22:55 |
| _MMA_ | *said | 22:55 |
| kwwii | right | 22:55 |
| _MMA_ | I really think you're making this wallpaper change more than it needs to be. :P | 22:55 |
| kwwii | :p | 22:56 |
| _MMA_ | I could see if you know your sticking with the current system but you keep talking about changing it. | 22:56 |
| kwwii | mark said that we should update it asap | 22:56 |
| kwwii | right, but changing it without knowing exactly what you are doing is silly | 22:56 |
| _MMA_ | Thats why changing the gutsy-named package for now is fine. | 22:57 |
| _MMA_ | I guess you have to say for what cycle you want to make the packaging change. | 22:57 |
| kwwii | right, it probably is enough for now | 22:57 |
| _MMA_ | This or +1 | 22:57 |
| _MMA_ | You could always use Ubuntu Studio's change as a test and switch +1. | 22:58 |
| _MMA_ | Maybe for now, its best to keep with the current system so as to minimize the amount of work involved for all. | 22:58 |
| _MMA_ | But that's your call. | 22:59 |
| kwwii | _MMA_: I think we might as well change as now, but I want to only change once | 22:59 |
| kwwii | so knowing exactly what you are doing and discussing it with other devs is important before we change | 23:00 |
| _MMA_ | Sure. So for now, just change the gutsy-named package and work with Ubuntu Studio on their system. There's no reason why we can also involve seb. | 23:01 |
| kwwii | right | 23:02 |
| _MMA_ | gah. *cant (you got it) | 23:03 |
| somerville32 | So, whats the verdict? | 23:05 |
| _MMA_ | I've said my piece. ;) | 23:05 |
| kwwii | I think that the most important part for now is that we update things | 23:05 |
| kwwii | we can work out the long term plan later | 23:06 |
| kwwii | gotta run to get my wife | 23:06 |
| kwwii | brb | 23:06 |
| somerville32 | Ok, so I'll keep the current model and create a new source package and update the ubuntu-artwork package to reflect | 23:06 |
| kwwii | somerville32: sounds like the best plan for now | 23:06 |
| _MMA_ | pfftt. Sayz you. | 23:07 |
| somerville32 | lol | 23:07 |
| _MMA_ | ;) | 23:07 |
| somerville32 | So, gutsy-elephant-skin.jpg -> ubuntu-final.jpg ? | 23:09 |
| _MMA_ | Should be. | 23:11 |
| * _MMA_ thought they were .pngs? | 23:11 | |
| _MMA_ | And you're editing the wallpapers.xml file right? | 23:11 |
| _MMA_ | Damn. Gotta go. bbl | 23:12 |
| kwwii | somerville32: yeah, but we probalby need to include the old default under another name | 23:22 |
| somerville32 | dholbach already updated the package in hardy to archive the gutsy stuff | 23:23 |
| somerville32 | Is the first item in ubuntu-wallpapers.xml.in the default or something? | 23:24 |
| _MMA_ | Actually, the default is set in a gconf key. | 23:27 |
| _MMA_ | So your wallpaper has to be named the same thing or you need to touch the package that sets the key. | 23:27 |
| kwwii | right | 23:29 |
| kwwii | the names in the xml should be apparetn | 23:29 |
| kwwii | nt | 23:29 |
| somerville32 | the elephant background is not png like simple was | 23:29 |
| somerville32 | so I'll have to update that package | 23:29 |
| kwwii | erm, shit | 23:29 |
| somerville32 | or convert it to png | 23:30 |
| _MMA_ | See... this is why the system needs to be changed. | 23:30 |
| kwwii | no doubt | 23:30 |
| kwwii | I forgot about that part | 23:30 |
| kwwii | the easy way is to just convert it to png | 23:30 |
| _MMA_ | So the new Hardy package needs to be named the same. | 23:30 |
| _MMA_ | gah | 23:30 |
| kwwii | or change the package and then also change the gconf setting | 23:30 |
| kwwii | man, see what I mean when I say that an artist should not have to deal with this stuff? | 23:31 |
| _MMA_ | Well I would do both. (as long as someones touching it) Change the gconf setting to something generic like "ubuntu.png" and stick with that from now on. | 23:32 |
| _MMA_ | Then change the wallpaper name. | 23:32 |
| somerville32 | ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using | 23:33 |
| kwwii | yeah, probably the best bet although I would like to really discuss the final fname with people to find what is really best | 23:33 |
| somerville32 | err.. final-ubuntu.png | 23:33 |
| somerville32 | so I'll convert elephant to png | 23:33 |
| kwwii | I mean, the whole problem we have now is because a few people made a quick decision which sucked | 23:34 |
| _MMA_ | "We" as in Xubuntu? | 23:34 |
| kwwii | somerville32: yeah, for now that is enough | 23:34 |
| somerville32 | What does Xubuntu have to do with this? | 23:35 |
| _MMA_ | "somerville32: ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using" "_MMA_: "We" as in Xubuntu?" | 23:36 |
| kwwii | xubuntu has nothing to do with this | 23:36 |
| kwwii | lol | 23:36 |
| somerville32 | _MMA_, We as in this package :P | 23:36 |
| kwwii | I am pretty sure they have their own name | 23:36 |
| kwwii | we as in ubuntu | 23:36 |
| _MMA_ | The Ubuntu one should have "warty" in the name. | 23:36 |
| _MMA_ | Not just "final-ubuntu.png". | 23:36 |
| somerville32 | Ah, right | 23:37 |
| _MMA_ | Hence the question. ;) | 23:37 |
| kwwii | warty-final-ubuntu.png has to be the name for now | 23:37 |
| _MMA_ | And thats the whole reason we have this problem. | 23:37 |
| kwwii | exactly | 23:38 |
| kwwii | but before we just go pick another name at random, let's think this out first | 23:38 |
| _MMA_ | Like I keep saying "ubuntu.png" or even "final-ubuntu.png" is good. | 23:38 |
| kwwii | probably, but maybe there is something better | 23:39 |
| _MMA_ | But I wouldnt so systemic changes until we get seb, luke and all of us together. | 23:39 |
| kwwii | I cannot think of anything better, but I want to have a meeting about this and get people's official opinions and statements before making a mistake | 23:40 |
| kwwii | right | 23:40 |
| _MMA_ | Naa... Nice and generic. Otherwise you risk the same situation we have now. | 23:40 |
| _MMA_ | w00t! Pizza's here. | 23:40 |
| kwwii | w00t, the word of the year | 23:41 |
| kwwii | I love that fact | 23:41 |
| mgunes | kwii, what's the rationale in not branding g-s-m's "System" tab? | 23:44 |
| kwwii | mgunes: we only brand important things so that derivatives have an easier time at it | 23:45 |
| andreasn_ | hm, I wonder what the gnome foot is doing in there | 23:45 |
| === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn | ||
| andreasn | why have any logo at all there | 23:46 |
| andreasn | = | 23:46 |
| andreasn | ? | 23:46 |
| kwwii | right | 23:46 |
| mgunes | kwii, I think this should be included in "important things" | 23:46 |
| kwwii | hi andreasn | 23:46 |
| andreasn | hey | 23:46 |
| kwwii | mgunes: actually, we had a long discussion about this before gutsy | 23:46 |
| mgunes | if anything is going to appear there at all, OS branding makes more sense | 23:46 |
| * TheMuso return | 23:47 | |
| TheMuso | returns | 23:47 |
| mgunes | kwii, in the mailing list? I'd like to read it | 23:47 |
| kwwii | mgunes: nope | 23:47 |
| kwwii | it was a private discussion within canonical | 23:47 |
| mgunes | kwwii, how exactly does rebranding make it more difficult for derivatives? I'm not arguing that it shouldn't; I'd just like to learn how | 23:48 |
| kwwii | it makes one more pic to change | 23:51 |
| kwwii | and it also makes things nasty when you run on app in another desktop/variant | 23:51 |
| kwwii | in the end, I did make pics for it but they were removed | 23:51 |
| kwwii | and it really does seem right to show that, if anything, it is a gnome desktop | 23:52 |
| kwwii | nautrally, we could bring the issue up again and see what comes of it | 23:52 |
| _MMA_ | mgunes: Really, for Ubuntu Studio, I dont wanna have to brand every little thing. Im cool with not hiding everything mentioning GNOME. | 23:52 |
| mgunes | it's not the best place to show that it's a gnome desktop. System / About GNOME does that. the info presented in the g-s-m capplet is more closely associated with the operating system than the desktop environment | 23:53 |
| kwwii | actually, we are also working on makeing a bling version of the about stuff | 23:53 |
| * mgunes knows | 23:53 | |
| kwwii | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyShine?highlight=%28%5EDesktopTeam%2FSpecs%2F.%2A%29 | 23:53 |
| kwwii | erm | 23:54 |
| kwwii | lol, this makes me wonder when the artwork team really rocked: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_124/2645-Riding-the-Failure-Cascade | 23:57 |
| mgunes | I think the professional touch it adds would be worth the tiny bit of work it adds for derivatives | 23:58 |
| _MMA_ | Also, that colored gradient in g-s-m is pulled from the theme so I dont know how that image is actually done. | 23:58 |
| kwwii | it is a funky thing | 23:58 |
| kwwii | it has a pic which it lays on a bg, irrc | 23:58 |
| _MMA_ | I also dont believe in removing all traces of GNOME branding. Where does it end? | 23:58 |
| kwwii | much like all other gnome themeing things, it seems like a freaky hack | 23:59 |
| kwwii | :p | 23:59 |
| _MMA_ | kwwii: Well the "foot" itself is colored from the gtkrc. | 23:59 |
| mgunes | _MMA_, I'm not arguing for removing all traces of GNOME branding. it just doesn't fit into this particular place, unlike OS branding. | 23:59 |
| _MMA_ | Like I said "Where does it end?". | 23:59 |
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