[00:05] <DanaG> Ooh, this DOES look cool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
[00:06] <DanaG> Though I still like Aurora.
[00:08] <Toma-> impossible with the current gnome software
[01:28]  * tehk can't wait for murrine 0.60 and translucent windows
[01:29] <Toma-> its fake transparency right?
[01:29] <Toma-> it wouldnt be dependant on a compmgr
[01:35] <DanaG> Actually, it seems to be real transparency.
[01:36] <DanaG> http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/12/12/gnome-theme-engine-designer-adds-transparency-to-gtk
[01:39] <Toma-> The translucency effects obviously require a compositing window manager, but the theme engine is designed so that the widgets will simply be rendered without transparency when no compositing window manager is present.
[01:52] <tehk> Yea so scaling is alreay there
[01:53] <DanaG> WTF?  I just scrolled and stopped, and the screen kept scrolling for another 3 pages.
[10:35] <lapo> hi
[15:45] <cursor> ello
[19:16] <mgunes> Is it a good idea to have Ubuntu branding instead of GNOME in gnome-system-monitor's "System" tab?
[19:52] <kwwii> no, we decided not to brand that
[19:53] <kwwii> we want to stay away from branding everything ubuntu
[22:04] <somerville32> kwwii, ping
[22:05] <kwwii> somerville32: pong
[22:05] <somerville32> kwwii, I can package.
[22:05] <kwwii> somerville32: killer, that would be great
[22:05] <kwwii> it is not like the tings we do are very hard or technicaly challending
[22:05] <kwwii> erm, you get my point
[22:05] <somerville32> I'm surprised you guys are having trouble finding people to do it
[22:06] <kwwii> yeah, I assumed that people would step up and help
[22:06] <kwwii> the first thing we want to do is put the elephant wallpaper as the default version for Hardy
[22:06] <somerville32> One question
[22:06] <somerville32> Is there an artwork council?
[22:06] <kwwii> that means moving the package to a new name and moving the current pics around
[22:07] <kwwii> no, there is no artwork council, I am the boss :p
[22:07] <somerville32> Ok.
[22:07] <kwwii> actually, mark is the boss
[22:07] <kwwii> and I am just the appointed person doing his bidding
[22:07] <_MMA_> No, there's a problem finding a "dedicated" person to do it. ;)
[22:07] <kwwii> as i work for canonical it makes most sense to do things through me
[22:08] <kwwii> as I can ask developers for favors that they kinda *have* to do ;-)
[22:08] <somerville32> lol
[22:08] <_MMA_> kwwii: And what the hell are you doing around anyway? :) Shouldnt you be kicking back with a beer somewhere?
[22:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: has to watch my kid while my wife is at a christmas party
[22:09] <kwwii> and as he just went to bed I just popped open a beer :-)
[22:09] <_MMA_> Ahh... ;)
[22:10] <kwwii> get this...I found a couple of other people who have their own companies or work from home and we are all going out on monday to have our own christmas party
[22:10]  * _MMA_ waits for a pizza. Then is gonna watch movies with the kids. (ironically while the wife also goes to a party) ;)
[22:11] <kwwii> ;-)
[22:11] <kwwii> it is that time of the year
[22:11] <_MMA_> Yep. hehe. "Work from home Christmas party." Neat.
[22:12] <kwwii> actually, since I started renting an office away from home I really notice the difference
[22:12] <kwwii> it is really nice to have a place to go and other people to see
[22:12] <_MMA_> Yeah. I can imagine. Thats killing me now and I can wait to go back to work.
[22:13] <_MMA_> I love 'em but I swear I wanna kill 'em more often now. :)
[22:13] <somerville32> :)
[22:13] <kwwii> getting away from home is really important now and again
[22:13] <kwwii> btw. this is for everyone:
[22:13] <kwwii> I updated the specs for hardy
[22:14] <kwwii> so everyone knows where we stand
[22:14] <kwwii> more info coming soon
[22:14] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/
[22:14] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyIconTheme and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme
[22:15] <somerville32> kwwii, so, what do you want me to do?
[22:15] <kwwii> somerville32: for now, we need to update gutsy-wallpapers
[22:16] <kwwii> which means we need to make a new package called hardy-wallpapers
[22:16] <_MMA_> somerville32: *IF* you do this you should also coordinate with TheMuso as he is coming up with a more manageable system for Ubuntu Studio's art.
[22:16] <kwwii> and switch the current default and the elephant wallpapers
[22:17] <kwwii> as far as the wallpapers go we need to think of a better way to update things
[22:17] <_MMA_> kwwii: Its nuts to make a new package just for a wallpaper update.
[22:17] <kwwii> as now we use a certain filename to set it
[22:17] <kwwii> _MMA_: it is either that or get away from the release names at all
[22:17] <somerville32> Why are you creating new packages?
[22:17] <_MMA_> Id just update the Gutsy one and really look at the system Luke is coming up with.
[22:17] <kwwii> somerville32: the important part is that the name of the package changes
[22:18] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, we can do that, but we should all work together to find the best solution
[22:18] <somerville32> kwwii, Why not just put it in a ubuntu-artwork package or something?
[22:18] <kwwii> somerville32: yeah, that is what I thought too
[22:18] <kwwii> we do not have one package which includes all the themeing
[22:19] <kwwii> the reason seems to be that this way we can allow people to install older artwork packages without removing the current
[22:19] <_MMA_> somerville32: Just talk to TheMuso. I dont want you running off and duplicating efforts.
[22:20] <_MMA_> Our plan is to have 1 source package that generated all the needed binary packages.
[22:20] <_MMA_> *generates
[22:20] <kwwii> while that is interesting I am not certain that it is the best way to go about it
[22:21] <kwwii> although kubuntu does it like that for ever and it works really well
[22:21] <_MMA_> It would be fine.
[22:21] <kwwii> you need someone who really knows what they are doing to update something or a simple mistake breaks everything
[22:21] <_MMA_> What dont you think would work?
[22:21] <kwwii> and changing one thing requires rebuilding almost everything in the whole desktop
[22:21] <_MMA_> Naa....
[22:22] <somerville32> Why do we need multiple binary packages?
[22:22] <_MMA_> kwwii: It really shouldnt be that bug a deal.
[22:22] <_MMA_> somerville32: Because not everyone would want to install it all.
[22:22] <somerville32> Fair enough
[22:23] <kwwii> well, we also have different releases of that package for every variant and release
[22:25] <_MMA_> kwwii: Why?
[22:25] <_MMA_> Well, actually, For some parts yes.
[22:26] <kwwii> ;-)
[22:26] <_MMA_> But it shouldnt be a big deal at all.
[22:26] <kwwii> see how having one big package does change the way you have to do things?
[22:26] <_MMA_> Because you can still depend on the binary packages.
[22:27] <_MMA_> Sure but it shouldnt be an issue really. Ubuntu Studio's art should be different from Ubuntu. But I can still depend on a binary package the comes out of Ubuntus.
[22:29] <kwwii> oh it is certainly doable
[22:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: Show me exactly how it will be an issue, but I gotta read it later. Kids are calling me. :)
[22:30] <kwwii> dude, I am not sure that it will be a real problem, I am just asking open questions :p
[22:31] <somerville32> Hey TheMuso
[22:31] <somerville32> We were just talking about packaging for Artwork
[22:31] <somerville32> TheMuso, _MMA_ says that you're looking at ways to improve the process?
[22:31] <TheMuso> Right.
[22:32] <TheMuso> Yes I am.
[22:32] <somerville32> kwwii, said that he is looking for packages and I've volunteered. _MMA_ recommends I coordinate with you.
[22:33] <kwwii> no matter what we do, I don't want to waste anyones time
[22:33] <TheMuso> Understandable.
[22:34] <TheMuso> somerville32: SO what do you know so far about the current way the artwork is packaged?
[22:34] <somerville32> TheMuso, That there is a new package for each release
[22:34] <TheMuso> somerville32: SO you haven't dug any further yet
[22:35] <somerville32> No, I've only started speaking with kwwii 30 minutes ago
[22:36] <TheMuso> Right.
[22:36] <kwwii> many packages are just small pieces of the themeing which get updated every release, and some have release specific names
[22:37] <TheMuso> kwwii: Yeah I know, ubuntustudio is kinda the same.
[22:37] <TheMuso> somerville32: Well, in its curren state, the artwork for Ubuntu uses autoconf/automake.
[22:38]  * somerville32 nods.
[22:38] <kwwii> not all of it
[22:40] <TheMuso> kwwii: The ubuntu-artwork package proper is though afaik.
[22:41] <TheMuso> sorry the icon theme
[22:41] <kwwii> right
[22:42] <TheMuso> Thats the one I'm looking at improving packaging for.
[22:42] <TheMuso> Since ours is based on autoconf/automake, ours being ubuntustudio
[22:42] <kwwii> many of our packages use python instead
[22:42] <kwwii> it has proven to be much easier
[22:43] <TheMuso> Python-distutils, yeah agreed.
[22:43] <kwwii> exactly
[22:43] <TheMuso> I'm thinking that is a good option for icon-theme.
[22:44] <kwwii> basically, I know enough to know how much I don't know :p
[22:44] <kwwii> yeah, moving the icon them from using a makefile would be a big improvement
[22:44] <TheMuso> bbl, gotta go do chores, but I'll have a think about whats required to switch to distutils, considering there are so many icon dirs.
[22:45] <kwwii> cool, see you around
[22:46] <kwwii> somerville32: in any case, if we can at least update the stuff for hardy to use the elephant wallpaper as default instead of the current gutsy default it would be a good step forward
[22:47] <somerville32> kwwii, and you want this in a new s/b package for now?
[22:47] <kwwii> somerville32: yeah, that seems like the best step at this time
[22:48] <_MMA_> I dont think it needs to be.
[22:48] <_MMA_> That requires changing depends on other packages.
[22:49] <_MMA_> Just keep using the Gutsy package with the default changed.
[22:49] <_MMA_> *Gutsy named.
[22:50] <_MMA_> That way you dont have to touch "ubuntu-artwork" as well.
[22:51] <_MMA_> *IF* this is a temporary solution that is.
[22:52] <kwwii> I do not think that at this time you have to touch ubuntu-artwork as well
[22:52] <_MMA_> If you create a new package yes you will.
[22:52] <kwwii> hrm, you might be right
[22:52] <kwwii> seb128 would know more
[22:53] <kwwii> but if we have to do that, I can just tell him to do it :p
[22:53] <somerville32> I can update ubuntu-artwork too if needed
[22:53] <somerville32> kwwii, It is your call
[22:53] <_MMA_> Dammit. Just do like I said. :P Its 2 changes.
[22:53] <kwwii> we should just ask seb
[22:54] <kwwii> but it makes little sense logically to update a package for hardy called "gutsy-wallpapers"
[22:54] <_MMA_> Well he would have to push the changes to the archive anyway.
[22:54] <kwwii> then there would be no chance to install that package logically on a newer system
[22:54] <_MMA_> But that only if you're sticking with the current packaging scheme.
[22:55] <_MMA_> This can just be temp like I daid.
[22:55] <_MMA_> *said
[22:55] <kwwii> right
[22:55] <_MMA_> I really think you're making this wallpaper change more than it needs to be. :P
[22:56] <kwwii> :p
[22:56] <_MMA_> I could see if you know your sticking with the current system but you keep talking about changing it.
[22:56] <kwwii> mark said that we should update it asap
[22:56] <kwwii> right, but changing it without knowing exactly what you are doing is silly
[22:57] <_MMA_> Thats why changing the gutsy-named package for now is fine.
[22:57] <_MMA_> I guess you have to say for what cycle you want to make the packaging change.
[22:57] <kwwii> right, it probably is enough for now
[22:57] <_MMA_> This or +1
[22:58] <_MMA_> You could always use Ubuntu Studio's change as a test and switch +1.
[22:58] <_MMA_> Maybe for now, its best to keep with the current system so as to minimize the amount of work involved for all.
[22:59] <_MMA_> But that's your call.
[22:59] <kwwii> _MMA_: I think we might as well change as now, but I want to only change once
[23:00] <kwwii> so knowing exactly what you are doing and discussing it with other devs is important before we change
[23:01] <_MMA_> Sure. So for now, just change the gutsy-named package and work with Ubuntu Studio on their system. There's no reason why we can also involve seb.
[23:02] <kwwii> right
[23:03] <_MMA_> gah. *cant (you got it)
[23:05] <somerville32> So, whats the verdict?
[23:05] <_MMA_> I've said my piece. ;)
[23:05] <kwwii> I think that the most important part for now is that we update things
[23:06] <kwwii> we can work out the long term plan later
[23:06] <kwwii> gotta run to get my wife
[23:06] <kwwii> brb
[23:06] <somerville32> Ok, so I'll keep the current model and create a new source package and update the ubuntu-artwork package to reflect
[23:06] <kwwii> somerville32: sounds like the best plan for now
[23:07] <_MMA_> pfftt. Sayz you.
[23:07] <somerville32> lol
[23:07] <_MMA_> ;)
[23:09] <somerville32> So, gutsy-elephant-skin.jpg -> ubuntu-final.jpg ?
[23:11] <_MMA_> Should be.
[23:11]  * _MMA_ thought they were .pngs?
[23:11] <_MMA_> And you're editing the wallpapers.xml file right?
[23:12] <_MMA_> Damn. Gotta go. bbl
[23:22] <kwwii> somerville32: yeah, but we probalby need to include the old default under another name
[23:23] <somerville32> dholbach already updated the package in hardy to archive the gutsy stuff
[23:24] <somerville32> Is the first item in ubuntu-wallpapers.xml.in the default or something?
[23:27] <_MMA_> Actually, the default is set in a gconf key.
[23:27] <_MMA_> So your wallpaper has to be named the same thing or you need to touch the package that sets the key.
[23:29] <kwwii> right
[23:29] <kwwii> the names in the xml should be apparetn
[23:29] <kwwii> nt
[23:29] <somerville32> the elephant background is not png like simple was
[23:29] <somerville32> so I'll have to update that package
[23:29] <kwwii> erm, shit
[23:30] <somerville32> or  convert it to png
[23:30] <_MMA_> See... this is why the system needs to be changed.
[23:30] <kwwii> no doubt
[23:30] <kwwii> I forgot about that part
[23:30] <kwwii> the easy way is to just convert it to png
[23:30] <_MMA_> So the new Hardy package needs to be named the same.
[23:30] <_MMA_> gah
[23:30] <kwwii> or change the package and then also change the gconf setting
[23:31] <kwwii> man, see what I mean when I say that an artist should not have to deal with this stuff?
[23:32] <_MMA_> Well I would do both. (as long as someones touching it) Change the gconf setting to something generic like "ubuntu.png" and stick with that from now on.
[23:32] <_MMA_> Then change the wallpaper name.
[23:33] <somerville32> ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using
[23:33] <kwwii> yeah, probably the best bet although I would like to really discuss the final fname with people to find what is really best
[23:33] <somerville32> err.. final-ubuntu.png
[23:33] <somerville32> so I'll convert elephant to png
[23:34] <kwwii> I mean, the whole problem we have now is because a few people made a quick decision which sucked
[23:34] <_MMA_> "We" as in Xubuntu?
[23:34] <kwwii> somerville32: yeah, for now that is enough
[23:35] <somerville32> What does Xubuntu have to do with this?
[23:36] <_MMA_> "somerville32: ubuntu-final.png is what we have been using" "_MMA_: "We" as in Xubuntu?"
[23:36] <kwwii> xubuntu has nothing to do with this
[23:36] <kwwii> lol
[23:36] <somerville32> _MMA_, We as in this package :P
[23:36] <kwwii> I am pretty sure they have their own name
[23:36] <kwwii> we as in ubuntu
[23:36] <_MMA_> The Ubuntu one should have "warty" in the name.
[23:36] <_MMA_> Not just "final-ubuntu.png".
[23:37] <somerville32> Ah, right
[23:37] <_MMA_> Hence the question. ;)
[23:37] <kwwii> warty-final-ubuntu.png has to be the name for now
[23:37] <_MMA_> And thats the whole reason we have this problem.
[23:38] <kwwii> exactly
[23:38] <kwwii> but before we just go pick another name at random, let's think this out first
[23:38] <_MMA_> Like I keep saying "ubuntu.png" or even "final-ubuntu.png" is good.
[23:39] <kwwii> probably, but maybe there is something better
[23:39] <_MMA_> But I wouldnt so systemic changes until we get seb, luke and all of us together.
[23:40] <kwwii> I cannot think of anything better, but I want to have a meeting about this and get people's official opinions and statements before making a mistake
[23:40] <kwwii> right
[23:40] <_MMA_> Naa... Nice and generic. Otherwise you risk the same situation we have now.
[23:40] <_MMA_> w00t! Pizza's here.
[23:41] <kwwii> w00t, the word of the year
[23:41] <kwwii> I love that fact
[23:44] <mgunes> kwii, what's the rationale in not branding g-s-m's "System" tab?
[23:45] <kwwii> mgunes: we only brand important things so that derivatives have an easier time at it
[23:45] <andreasn_> hm, I wonder what the gnome foot is doing in there
[23:46] <andreasn> why have any logo at all there
[23:46] <andreasn> =
[23:46] <andreasn> ?
[23:46] <kwwii> right
[23:46] <mgunes> kwii, I think this should be included in "important things"
[23:46] <kwwii> hi andreasn
[23:46] <andreasn> hey
[23:46] <kwwii> mgunes: actually, we had a long discussion about this before gutsy
[23:46] <mgunes> if anything is going to appear there at all, OS branding makes more sense
[23:47]  * TheMuso return
[23:47] <TheMuso> returns
[23:47] <mgunes> kwii, in the mailing list? I'd like to read it
[23:47] <kwwii> mgunes: nope
[23:47] <kwwii> it was a private discussion within canonical
[23:48] <mgunes> kwwii, how exactly does rebranding make it more difficult for derivatives? I'm not arguing that it shouldn't; I'd just like to learn how
[23:51] <kwwii> it makes one more pic to change
[23:51] <kwwii> and it also makes things nasty when you run on app in another desktop/variant
[23:51] <kwwii> in the end, I did make pics for it but they were removed
[23:52] <kwwii> and it really does seem right to show that, if anything, it is a gnome desktop
[23:52] <kwwii> nautrally, we could bring the issue up again and see what comes of it
[23:52] <_MMA_> mgunes: Really, for Ubuntu Studio, I dont wanna have to brand every little thing. Im cool with not hiding everything mentioning GNOME.
[23:53] <mgunes> it's not the best place to show that it's a gnome desktop. System / About GNOME does that. the info presented in the g-s-m capplet is more closely associated with the operating system than the desktop environment
[23:53] <kwwii> actually, we are also working on makeing a bling version of the about stuff
[23:53]  * mgunes knows
[23:53] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyShine?highlight=%28%5EDesktopTeam%2FSpecs%2F.%2A%29
[23:54] <kwwii> erm
[23:57] <kwwii> lol, this makes me wonder when the artwork team really rocked: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_124/2645-Riding-the-Failure-Cascade
[23:58] <mgunes> I think the professional touch it adds would be worth the tiny bit of work it adds for derivatives
[23:58] <_MMA_> Also, that colored gradient in g-s-m is pulled from the theme so I dont know how that image is actually done.
[23:58] <kwwii> it is a funky thing
[23:58] <kwwii> it has a pic which it lays on a bg, irrc
[23:58] <_MMA_> I also dont believe in removing all traces of GNOME branding. Where does it end?
[23:59] <kwwii> much like all other gnome themeing things, it seems like a freaky hack
[23:59] <kwwii> :p
[23:59] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well the "foot" itself is colored from the gtkrc.
[23:59] <mgunes> _MMA_, I'm not arguing for removing all traces of GNOME branding. it just doesn't fit into this particular place, unlike OS branding.
[23:59] <_MMA_> Like I said "Where does it end?".