[12:09] <warp10> Hi all
[12:54] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 6 minutes
[12:55]  * Hobbsee evacuates this irc room
[12:56]  * persia doesn't have a copy of the evacuation plan, and hopes huddling in the doorway is sufficient
[12:56] <dholbach> :)
[12:56] <apachelogger__> ahoy
[12:56] <dholbach> heya
[13:00] <dholbach> welcome to another MOTU Q&A session! how are you all doing?
[13:00] <dholbach> let's start with our usual round of introductions :-)
[13:00] <cheguevara> sleepy :P
[13:00] <Kmos> in a minutes of lunch time =)
[13:00] <txwikinger2> hi folks
[13:00]  * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, member of the MOTU team, tries to help to make becoming a MOTU as enjoyable and straightforward as possible :)
[13:01] <Kmos> and also member of MOTU Council =)
[13:01]  * Hobbsee is car searching.
[13:01]  * Hobbsee has no name.
[13:01]  * txwikinger2 is a MOTU-contributor and wants to become a MOTU .. .and has having a blast doing it
[13:01] <Hobbsee> oh wait, i'm the MOTU clown!  That's right!
[13:01] <cheguevara> lol
[13:01] <Kmos> Hobbsee: hehe
[13:01] <ian_brasil> hi all
[13:02] <dholbach> who of you was in the Kubuntu Tutorials Session yesterday?
[13:02]  * persia is Emmet Hikory, MOTU, who likes to see bugs closed, and contributions from anyone.
[13:02] <dholbach> I see a bunch of familiar nicks in here
[13:02] <txwikinger2> /me
[13:02] <Kmos>  /not me
[13:02]  * apachelogger__ is Harald Sitter, MOTU, focused on KDE stuff
[13:02] <dholbach> did anybody bring a few questions today? maybe something that was unclear in the session yesterday?
[13:03] <dholbach> for those of you who couldn't make it yesterday, the busy kubuntu people already put up logs of the sessions: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[13:04] <dholbach> welcome seyo1
[13:04] <dholbach> no questions? no problems you ran into recently?
[13:04] <mruiz> hi all
[13:04] <dholbach> hi mruiz
[13:04] <apachelogger__> hey mruiz
[13:04] <zul> yes if a tree falls in a forrest..oh wait
[13:04] <mruiz> hi dholbach, apachelogger__
[13:05] <dholbach> zul: hehe
[13:05] <Kmos> hi mruiz !
[13:05] <mruiz> Kmos, ;-)
[13:05]  * txwikinger2 is just enjoying it atm... 
[13:05] <persia> Any question welcome.  Things from yesterday, or anything else about MOTU, packaging, process, etc.
[13:05] <mruiz> I have one question with a merge... about the version
[13:05] <dholbach> mruiz: fire away
[13:05] <mruiz> dholbach, sure
[13:05] <seyo1> hi there
[13:06]  * mruiz is looking for the changelog...
[13:07] <dholbach> mruiz: which package was it about?
[13:08] <mruiz> dholbach, mailping (bug #175998) ... MoM gave me this changelog: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48196/
[13:08]  * Hobbsee takes this opportunity to remind people that anyone who uploads an i386.changes file to REVU, when contributing, will be taken out and shot, personally.
[13:09] <dholbach> mruiz: OK, what is your question about it?
[13:09]  * txwikinger2 thinks Australians should not bear arms
[13:09]  * Hobbsee goes on lookout for the 4 people who managed to ignore all documentation on the subject, and do just that.
[13:09]  * persia notes that this would be a figurative shot, and rather means that the upload won't be processed.
[13:09] <Hobbsee> persia: i don't know about that....
[13:10] <dholbach> couldn't REVU deal with it gracefully?
[13:10] <Hobbsee> dholbach: oh, it just sits in incomming
[13:10] <dholbach> mruiz: is your question about the version in the changelog?
[13:10] <Hobbsee> my problem more is the fact that people do not read, or do not comprehend, or something.
[13:10] <dholbach> Hobbsee: couldn't REVU just delete it in a cronjob?
[13:10] <mruiz> if you look about package dates, I think that changelog is wrong Debian version is the latest (Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:46:25 +0200)... then the merge version must be based on Debian version
[13:10]  * txwikinger2 is relieved
[13:10] <dholbach> let's take the REVU discussion to #ubuntu-motu
[13:11] <Hobbsee> hrm.  konversation != firefox
[13:11] <cheguevara> xchat > konversation
[13:11] <apachelogger> Quassel > xchat > konversation
[13:12] <Hobbsee> pft.
[13:12] <apachelogger> but that's another topic :P
[13:12] <elisiano> is there a way to make konversation open the right channel when i click on a channel name (#channel instead of \channel)
[13:12] <mruiz> dholbach, did you understand?
[13:12] <apachelogger> elisiano: #konversation or #kubuntu please
[13:13] <dholbach> mruiz: one thing I note in the changelog is the confusion about the version
[13:13] <dholbach> the ubuntu update from 0.0.4-1 shouldn't have been 0.0.4ubuntu4
[13:13] <elisiano> yeah that wasn't a request, justa complain :D
[13:14] <dholbach> 0.0.4-1ubuntu1 can't be the next version number
[13:14] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ dpkg --compare-versions 0.0.4ubuntu4 gt 0.0.4-1ubuntu1; echo $?
[13:14] <dholbach> 0
[13:14] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
[13:14] <dholbach> so  0.0.4ubuntu4 > 0.0.4-1ubuntu1
[13:15] <dholbach> mruiz: I'm sure that's a reason why the changelog merge went wrong
[13:15] <mruiz> for me, the correct merge changelog should be: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48197/
[13:15] <dholbach> that doesn't work
[13:15] <dholbach> we have 0.0.4ubuntu4 in the archive now
[13:15] <persia> Err..  0.0.4ubuntu4 was the right version: 0.0.4-1 was the mistake.  Current Ubuntu versioning policy doesn't support Debian NMUs of native packages, which causes this sort of issue.
[13:16] <dholbach> which is greater than 0.0.4-1ubuntu1
[13:16] <dholbach> persia: I don't understand
[13:16] <persia> OK.  In Debian, a native package has a version like X.Y.Z
[13:16] <persia> When we make an Ubuntu variation, we version it X.Y.ZubuntuN
[13:17] <dholbach> ok... looking at the full changelog I see what you mean
[13:17] <persia> If there is a Debian NMU of a native package, Debian uploads X.Y.Z-0.N
[13:17] <txwikinger2> why is there a version x.y.z and one x.y.z-a.b in debian then?
[13:17] <dholbach> listen to persia, persia is right :)
[13:17] <persia> However, since X.Y.Z-0.N < X.Y.ZubuntuN, we can't follow the version, and need to push X.Y.Zubuntu(N+1)
[13:18] <apachelogger> txwikinger2: this is from what I understand an ubuntu native package
[13:18] <apachelogger> hence debian _only_ can make a NMU upload since the maintainer is working on ubuntu
[13:18] <txwikinger2> ah
[13:18] <persia> Unfortunately, in this case, someone in Debian QA was confused by this strange practice of NMU versioning in Debian, and uploaded 0.0.4-1, which would indicate a non-native Debian package.
[13:18] <apachelogger> so they should version x.y.z-0.n
[13:18] <apachelogger> although Michael did a -1
[13:19] <persia> MoM is very confused about this: the correct version to upload with the merge is 0.0.4ubuntu5, and the mess should be left in the old changelog due to the "don't change history" policy.
[13:19] <dholbach> mruiz: are things becoming more clear now?
[13:19] <mruiz> sure!
[13:20] <dholbach> any other questions?
[13:20] <txwikinger2> how should it be done correctly to avoid this mess :)
[13:20] <mruiz> dholbach, sure.... then, how is the procedure? (my merge is ready... just waiting for the correct version number)
[13:20] <apachelogger> txwikinger2: debian only does uploads like x.y.z-0.n
[13:21] <apachelogger> the 0.n is the important part of course ;-)
[13:21] <dholbach> the only reasonable thing we can do is have a 0.0.4ubuntu5
[13:21] <dholbach> the version number must be greater, else the upload will be rejected
[13:22]  * mruiz changing the version number...
[13:22] <txwikinger2> and the apt-get install too
[13:22] <dholbach> right
[13:22]  * persia notes that there is both discussion in Debian whether -0.N makes sense, and discussion in Ubuntu whether -0ubuntuN makes sense, and both have lots of problems, so this will likely exist for a while yet.
[13:22] <persia> Err..  -0.0ubuntuN
[13:23] <dholbach> any other questions about processes, how to XYZ done in ubuntu, a specific packaging problem, something you always wondered? don't be shy :)
[13:23] <txwikinger2> Every ubuntu native package has "ubuntu" in its version ?
[13:23] <persia> txwikinger2: No.
[13:24] <mruiz> dholbach, another question about debian/control file
[13:24] <dholbach> mruiz: fire away
[13:24] <persia> txwikinger2: More verbosely, most true Ubuntu-native packages are versioned as X.Y.Z.  Some native packages from Debian are changed in Ubuntu, and are versioned X.Y.ZubuntuN.  Some Ubuntu native packages are adopted by Debian, and versions become confusing.
[13:24] <dholbach> txwikinger2: python-launchpad-bugs for example doesn't :)
[13:24] <mruiz> I was preparing other merge, and Debian version includes new fields ...http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48199/ (lines with *)
[13:25] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48199/
[13:25] <mruiz> thanks dholbach
[13:25] <dholbach> mruiz: what's your question about them?
[13:25] <mruiz> how to include them into Ubuntu changelog?
[13:26] <dholbach> mruiz: when you do a merge you preserve the debian/changelog we inherit from debian
[13:26] <persia> mruiz: I'd suggest keeping Uploaders, Homepage, and XS-DM-Allowed.  I'd suggest dropping Vcs-* for a merge, as the Ubuntu packaging is not included in that location.
[13:26] <dholbach> mruiz: but in your entry, you list the changes that we have over the debian package
[13:26]  * persia answered the wrong question :(
[13:26] <geser> mruiz: have you changed them? if no, then why mentioning them in the Ubuntu changelog entry?
[13:27] <geser> persia: is there some consensus what to do with Vcs-* fields from Debian in Ubuntu?
[13:27] <mruiz> as we have a "special" field for the maintainer, I had doubts about another Debian-based fields
[13:27] <dholbach> mruiz: best to just keep them to keep the diff small
[13:28] <mruiz> ok
[13:28] <dholbach> just list the 'remaining changes'
[13:28] <persia> geser: Trend is towards dropping Vcs-* for packages where it doesn't point at the right place for packaging (e.g. Ubuntu variation with non-Ubuntu Vcs-*).  I haven't seen formal docs yet.
[13:29] <mruiz> dholbach,  yes... I do. Just I want to know more about the process ;-)=
[13:29] <dholbach> mruiz: which process? :)
[13:29] <mruiz> merging
[13:29] <dholbach> just ask :)
[13:29] <ScottK> persia: Then I think we should have agreement on it at a MOTU meeting before giving out advice that's the way to do it.
[13:29] <persia> mruiz: The only special field currently is "Maintainer".  "Vcs-*" is under discussion, but there isn't yet an official position.
[13:30] <dholbach> if you feel there are things missing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging please say so
[13:30] <dholbach> ScottK: I think this should be decided in the big ubuntu picture
[13:30] <dholbach> I know that mvo had some ideas on how to solve the problem
[13:30] <txwikinger2> dholbach: I have a questiojn regarding upstream
[13:30] <dholbach> txwikinger2: just ask :)
[13:30] <persia> ScottK: It's more than MOTU.  There's ideas for a spec being bounced around.
[13:31] <txwikinger2> Do I create unnessary work if I put a patch for the bug in lp and also send the patch to upstream?
[13:31] <dholbach> txwikinger2: that depends on how reactive the debian maintainer is or the upstream author is and at which stage of the release cycle we are
[13:32] <dholbach> txwikinger2: let's say we are 3 weeks away from the release and your patch fixes a critical crasher
[13:32] <dholbach> in that case you apply it, upload it and forward it upstream
[13:32] <dholbach> but in that case it's not worth to wait for an upstream update or a new release
[13:32] <dholbach> does that make sense?
[13:32] <txwikinger2> yes.
[13:32] <txwikinger2> So at the moment I try to first get it applied upstream that it can be synced?
[13:33]  * persia generally recommends uploads to Ubuntu anytime after DIF
[13:33] <dholbach> yes, that makes sense for software that is released regularly
[13:33] <txwikinger2> persia: When is DIF?
[13:33] <dholbach> for example in GNOME land where you get a new release every two weeks it makes perfect sense to wait to get your patch rolled into the upstream release
[13:33] <dholbach> txwikinger2: yesterday :)
[13:34] <txwikinger2> SO we are after now, and we apply directly to ubuntu?
[13:34] <persia> txwikinger2: Yesterday, but for things like GNOME or Open Office or X or the kernel, you'll do better to work with upstream, as Ubuntu tries not to have so much variation.
[13:34] <txwikinger2> ok
[13:35] <dholbach> so what seb128 does in the case of GNOME: he sets the bug to fix committed (as it's fixed upstream already)
[13:35] <persia> For little edge packages in universe, an upload is usually easier, as there's not such close coordination with upstream.
[13:35] <dholbach> and when he prepares the version update to ubuntu, he checks all 'fix committed' bugs and adds (LP: #123456) entries for all fixed bugs to the changelog
[13:35]  * dholbach agrees with persia
[13:35] <dholbach> it depends on the software and the upstream maintainer
[13:36] <txwikinger2> ok.. I can work with that
[13:36] <dholbach> great
[13:37] <dholbach> anything else you found problematic on your way to MOTU? or anything that could have been easier?
[13:37] <txwikinger2> dholbach: IS there any place that really needs some help atm or shoudl I knock myself out on the bitesizes?
[13:37]  * persia recommends updates to Ubuntu-only packages
[13:37] <mruiz> things are becoming easier
[13:38] <dholbach> txwikinger2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO has a bunch of stuff to do
[13:38] <dholbach> FTBFS problems
[13:38] <dholbach> also mvo files a whole lot of upgrade-failed bugs
[13:38] <dholbach> although I have to admit I forget which tag he uses for those
[13:39] <dholbach> those upgrade bugs will be more important during the cycle
[13:40] <dholbach> as we'll support upgrades from dapper to hardy this time
[13:40] <mruiz> Where can I find information about .desktop files? Some packages include foo.desktop.in and foo.desktop... what is the difference?
[13:40] <persia> mruiz: desktop.in is usually a .desktop pre-translation integration.
[13:40] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/SupplementaryFiles has more information on .desktop files
[13:41] <dholbach> mruiz: does that answer your question?
[13:42] <txwikinger2> cool that answers the question I was gonna ask next :D
[13:42] <dholbach> oh really? which question was that? :)
[13:43] <txwikinger2> about menu icons
[13:43] <mruiz> dholbach, persia : thanks...
[13:43] <dholbach> ah ok
[13:43] <dholbach> whenever you come across documentation and there's something that's missing or wrong, please let me know
[13:43] <dholbach> I'm happy to help fixing it
[13:43] <persia> txwikinger2: Actually, that data about icons is a little out of date, but at least minimally useful.
[13:43] <txwikinger2> persia: well I wondered if icons are supposed to be part of the artwork
[13:44] <mruiz> I'm looking for information about the Categories field. In a particular case, Ubuntu uses Categories=GNOME;Application;Game;ArcadeGame; and Debian: Categories=GNOME;Game;ArcadeGame;
[13:44] <dholbach> txwikinger2: why? or what are you after with your question?
[13:44] <persia> txwikinger2: Icons have places in both packages and themes.  Themes rarely have enough icons to cover all 25,000 packages, but packages should support theming for themes that do have support for those packages.
[13:45] <txwikinger2> Well, I see a lot of bugs for missing icons in the Kubuntu menu for gnome apps
[13:45] <txwikinger2> I wondered if they should be in the kubuntu artworks, or in the gnome app package
[13:45] <dholbach> I would be much happier if .desktop files were sent upstream
[13:45] <persia> mruiz: http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html has the Categories list.  Use one main category, and as many Additional Categories as are appropriate.
[13:46] <dholbach> because upstream integration of .desktop files is the only way to get them translated properly
[13:46] <dholbach> and we wouldn't have to carry myriads of .desktop file patches :)
[13:47] <persia> txwikinger2: The "missing icon in Kubuntu" issue is mostly due to not putting the icons in the ideal place.  This doesn't require a new icon, only moving it to the right directories.
[13:47] <txwikinger2> ah ok
[13:47]  * persia agrees with dholbach, but notes that app-install-data is built in part on the presence of .desktop files
[13:47] <dholbach> right
[13:47] <dholbach> still the right fix to me seems to be upstream :)
[13:47] <dholbach> regarding the upgrade problems bugs:
 dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUpdateManager: feisty2gutsy
[13:47] <dholbach>  dholbach: edgy2feisty etc
[13:48] <dholbach> ^ mvo just answered
[13:48] <persia> Actually, I think that's true for almost all of our non-packaging bugs.
[13:48]  * dholbach nods
[13:50] <dholbach> feisty to gutsy upgrade problems for example: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=feisty2gutsy
[13:51]  * dholbach should link them from MOTU/TODO
[13:51] <dholbach> anything else on your mind?
[13:53] <dholbach> if not, let's close the session for today - #ubuntu-motu is open 24/7 as is ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com :-)
[13:53] <mruiz> dholbach, yes... about the version change!
[13:53] <dholbach> mruiz: ah ok... which version change? mailping?
[13:53] <mruiz> dholbach, yes. Do I have to rename the directory too?
[13:53] <persia> mruiz: Yes.
[13:54] <dholbach> debuild should take care of that for you
[13:54] <mruiz> :-)
[13:54] <mruiz> anyway... we can continue in #ubuntu-motu
[13:54] <dholbach> ok great
[13:54]  * dholbach will take the dog for a walk
[13:54] <mruiz> thanks guys, you rock!
[13:55] <dholbach> thanks for great questions and a great session
[13:55] <dholbach> mruiz++ :)
[13:55] <txwikinger2> thanks dholbach
[13:57] <mruiz> bye guys
[13:58] <dholbach> bye
[14:08] <effie_jayx> no motu today?
[14:09] <Hobbsee> effie_jayx: you're late.
[14:13] <effie_jayx> Hobbsee,  ohhhhhhh
[14:13] <effie_jayx> timezone change in my country
[14:13] <effie_jayx> darn
[14:14] <mruiz> buuu effie_jayx !
[14:15] <effie_jayx> mruiz,  I must face mergers alon
[14:15] <mruiz> alone
[14:20] <effie_jayx> mruiz,  right
[14:20] <mruiz> effie_jayx, don't be shy... #ubuntu-motu is waiting for us ;-)
[14:21] <effie_jayx> mruiz,  I shall head into it
[15:07] <bazhang> is motu for mere mortals as well? :}
[15:09] <effie_jayx> bazhang,  yeah
[15:10] <effie_jayx> not really difficult
[15:10] <effie_jayx> you need to learn some tools
[15:10] <bazhang> effie_jayx: cool, thanks :}
[15:10] <effie_jayx> but not nuclear science
[15:10] <Hobbsee> we eat people occasionally, though
[15:10] <bazhang> haha
[15:10] <Hobbsee> if we're hungry
[15:11] <bazhang> I'll wait until after lunch then
[16:02] <effie_jayx> Hobbsee,  lol
[16:03] <Hobbsee> :)