kwwiiI laughed for like 2 days when I figured out that the splash screen accepts normal png files but still only does 8bit transparency00:00
_MMA_kwwii: meh. :)00:00
mgunesI'm not concerned about where it ends, because, as I said, I'm not saying "the less DE branding, the better"00:00
mgunesI'm talking about one specific thing00:00
kwwiifor now all I can say is that officialy we have discussed this and decided not to do it00:01
kwwiiit is a gerneral rule which I thinkis totally ok to follow00:01
_MMA_Even in this instance I really dont think it matters. :) Any you "Murat" are just talking about this one thing but what about the next person, and the next. I really think the amount of branding we can do now is good. The more you remove the more I think it insults GNOME. Just me. ;)00:03
kwwiithat is kinda the tinking behind it00:04
mguneskwwii, could you comment on bug 176417 to reflect this?00:04
ubotuLaunchpad bug 176417 in gnome-system-monitor ""System" tab should have Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17641700:04
somerville32I think I got a package :)00:12
kwwiisomerville32: killer00:14
kwwiiif you can do a debuild on it we can get someone to include it00:14
kwwiiwe need to post the links to the debuild pieces of every package to a motu dev00:15
kwwiinormally, I can see that this happens00:15
_MMA_Really, if this *is* a temp package its WAY more work then it needs to be. :P00:15
kwwiiin any case, I would start by posting links to those debuild things in the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop channel00:16
kwwii_MMA_: temp until we figure out the final scheme00:16
kwwiithat is a long way00:16
kwwiiit will probably stay with this packaging until we have the final stuff done for hardy00:16
_MMA_Then no need to build a new package.00:16
_MMA_Just update the current one in BZR and have Seb push the changes.00:17
kwwii_MMA_: I would rather take this step now and see how things work out00:19
kwwiiif we cannot change things, we only need to update a few parts00:20
somerville32This is confusing.00:20
kwwiiif we do change it, well, we change it and have to work on it00:20
kwwiifor now, this is the right thing to do00:20
kwwiiseveral people have already told me why we cannot change things00:20
kwwiiso it might be a step we want to in hardy+1 first00:20
_MMA_Guaranteed, you _WILL_ have to touch this package again.00:21
_MMA_Then if thats the case, (+1) you should have said when I asked. :)00:21
* somerville32 would like to note that there is already a ubuntu-wallpapers package00:21
_MMA_kwwii: I'll just strangle you in April. :P00:22
kwwiisomerville32: right, that was before my time, and we probably want to go back to that00:22
kwwiialthough with a different name for the actual pic00:22
somerville32kwwii, It has been updated for hardy00:22
somerville32It already conflicts gutsy-wallpapers00:22
kwwiihave to talk to seb about this tuff00:23
kwwiiI have no idea :-)00:23
somerville32Or maybe dholbach since he seems to be the one doing the work00:23
kwwiithe biggest problem is that dholbach is no longer working on this stuff00:23
_MMA_somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?00:23
kwwiiso he can also give information and an opinion but he will not work on this in the future00:23
somerville32_MMA_, yes00:24
somerville32I think it is best we disregard what I've done tonight and wait until we have a meeting with all the players00:24
somerville32There seems to be a lot of duplication going on00:24
somerville32ubuntu-artwork depends on ubuntu-wallpapers and not gutsy-wallpapers00:25
_MMA_If everyone would just listen to me it would be fine! :P00:26
_MMA_Oh well. kwwii will just end up copying Ubuntu Studio's package for +1. ;)00:27
somerville32kwwii, It seems like we've already migrated to using a standard ubuntu-wallpaper package in Hardy00:29
somerville32And it is managed in bazaar00:29
_MMA_The package isnt the big problem. Though this helps, its the naming of the wallpaper.00:30
somerville32_MMA_, and what are you recommending?00:30
_MMA_But after Hardy does seem like the best time to have a new setup.00:30
kwwiisomerville32: hrm, perhaps we should talk to others before moving on00:30
kwwiimaybe things have changed without me knowing about it00:30
somerville32Things _have_ moved00:30
somerville32I'm looking at the hardy packages right now00:30
_MMA_Not the way they need to though.00:31
kwwiilol, and they expect me to know about that without telling me00:31
_MMA_The file name needs to be standard.00:31
_MMA_We're going around in circles.00:31
somerville32_MMA_, It is standard. :P00:31
_MMA_"_MMA_: somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?" "somerville32: _MMA_, yes"00:31
somerville32_MMA_, Everything is now standard. The only thing weird is the standard name for the standard background - it still starts with warty-00:31
_MMA_"_MMA_: The file name needs to be standard."00:32
somerville32I think we're arguing semantics00:32
kwwiiso what has changed?00:33
somerville32kwwii, there is a ubuntu-wallpapers package and ubuntu-artwork depends on it00:33
_MMA_No. Its the same thing Ive said all day today and before you joined the channel for weeks now. ;)00:33
_MMA_kwwii: The *package* name has changed only. Not the file name.00:33
somerville32Who cares about the file name?00:34
somerville32Thats the smallest problem00:34
_MMA_No its not.00:34
kwwiihehe, that is what all the other devs said00:34
kwwiiit is very important00:34
kwwiibut for now, we can just update that packagte00:34
_MMA_Naming it based on a release was short-sighted.00:34
somerville32The big issue was that the package name was dependent on the release name - ie. it kept changing each release00:35
somerville32That caused problems00:35
_MMA_No, as that can be a easy depend change. Change the file name of the default wallpaper breaks upgrades.00:35
somerville32Are we planning to change the filename for the default wallpaper each release?00:36
_MMA_No. Just a one time change to something generic.00:36
kwwiithe update system just has to check for that00:36
kwwiiit is not that big of a deal00:37
_MMA_But like Ken finally said, it should be done for +1.00:37
somerville32The fact that the file name is currently not generic is NOT a big deal.00:37
somerville32Having to create a new package each release, IMHO, is tedious and was the issue and it seems resolved00:37
_MMA_somerville32: Its a big deal if people have been wanting change it since friggin Hardy. If people didnt want to change it sure. Doesnt matter.00:38
_MMA_Its just a oddity. An OCD kinda thing. Still it was short-sighted.00:39
somerville32So, I don't see how you can value this change over the now not having to create a new package each release00:39
somerville32Whatever the filename is, it really makes no difference besides being "neat" and logical.00:40
_MMA_Well earlier in the chat kwwii said the new "package" was called "hardy-". Thats bad as far as making a new package every time.00:41
somerville32The new package is ubuntu-wallpapers00:41
_MMA_But what started all this was simple the file name.00:41
somerville32What package needs to be changed?00:42
somerville32To change the default name?00:42
_MMA_So like I said the package could be called anything. The filename has been the issue.00:42
_MMA_Im not sure.00:43
* _MMA_ looks.00:43
somerville32_MMA_, I disagree. The filename IMHO is not an issue at all, just an oddity00:43
_MMA_TheMuso might know off-hand.00:43
_MMA_somerville32: Dammit! Its an issue because its what started this chat! :) Odd as it is.00:44
somerville32_MMA_, Weird. I'm pretty sure it was the workflow00:44
_MMA_Someone noticed many releases ago that it was called warty still but changing it would break things. Thats why we''re having this chat. :)00:45
somerville32Then this would be a big waste of time.00:46
_MMA_Ubuntu Studio sets the default in our -settings package. I gotta look to see where Ubuntu does it.00:46
somerville32kwwii, I see you're an admin of ~ubuntu-art-pkg00:46
kwwiisomerville32: yepp00:47
_MMA_somerville32: Ubuntu does it in "ubuntu-artwork" Look in "/usr/share/gconf/defaults"00:48
somerville32_MMA_, I don't see it setting the background image00:48
somerville32_MMA_, only themes00:48
TheMuso_MMA_: for what?00:49
* kwwii heads off to sleep00:49
_MMA_somerville32: Sorry. /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_gutsy-wallpapers00:49
_MMA_TheMuso: We found it. What package sets the art defaults in Ubuntu.00:49
TheMusoAh ok.00:50
_MMA_somerville32: So Im guessing the new one will be "/usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-wallpapers" And the 1st line still reads "/desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename "/usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png""00:51
somerville32That file doesn't belong to ubuntu-artwork00:52
somerville32It appears to me that it is indeed gutsy-wallpapers00:52
_MMA_Synaptic shows different.00:53
kwwiigo to bed00:53
TheMusoluke@marin:~$ dpkg -S /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork00:53
TheMusoubuntu-artwork: /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork00:53
kwwiidream about it00:53
TheMusohrm. Ubuntu-artwork is not maintained in bzr?00:55
_MMA_So kwwii I think you need to get a meeting together with the interested parties so we can go over this for +1. Or, just copy what Ubuntu Studio does. ;)00:55
somerville32_MMA_, What do you guys do?00:57
_MMA_Well we're looking at moving all the art to 1 source package.00:57
_MMA_Minus the settings though.00:57
_MMA_I guess we'll have to look at that.00:58
somerville32kwwii, So can you add me to that team?00:59
kwwiiCody A.W. Somerville ?01:01
somerville32kwwii, Are you going to schedule a meeting?01:01
somerville32I'm eager to see things get resolved.01:02
kwwiisomerville32: yes, in a day or so I will announce another meeting this omnth01:02
somerville32kwwii, Shouldn't we get this squared away before Alpha 2?01:02
kwwiiwe should try to do it as soon as possible01:02
kwwiiBUT, I am on vacation and have other work to do as well01:02
somerville32I know in the past we've had artwork freezes and what not01:03
somerville32Do we have a schedule for hardy?01:03
somerville32(maybe we could update the topic to provide some of that info/links to important docs?)01:03
_MMA_You know, Ubuntu Studio just follows Daniels "-look" package. And actually the only thing outside of our "-look" package is the icons.01:04
kwwii_MMA_: yeah01:04
kwwiinobody wanted to deal with that01:04
_MMA_Outside of the "-look" source package.01:04
kwwiiI made a howto and everything01:04
_MMA_Did you work with Daniel on the -look package?01:05
_MMA_Well why didnt they switch since Daniel made it?01:05
kwwii2am here, going to bed really soon01:07
kwwiiI think they wanted me to do it01:07
_MMA_You said that an hour ago. :P01:07
kwwiino doubt01:07
_MMA_TheMuso: https://launchpad.net/example-look01:09
* TheMuso pulls the branch associated with that project.01:11
_MMA_Hehe. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg01:11
TheMusoDoes example-look get used for anything currently?01:11
* _MMA_ didnt know there was a team. :P01:11
_MMA_kwwii: Luke is gonna join the team. Please approve so he can clean it up like he did our source.01:13
_MMA_There's files everywhere that should be removed.01:13
_MMA_Duplicates and such.01:14
TheMusoJoin request sent.01:15
dilomohi all09:43
Cimikwwii, did you read my blog?09:52
kwwiihi Cimi11:14
kwwiino but I saw a pic from you11:15
Cimiso read it11:15
kwwiiwill do11:16
kwwiihehe, and you told me I was crazy11:17
Cimikwwii, yes11:26
Ciminautilus can't be patched of course11:27
kwwiiwhy is that?11:27
kwwiiwhy can't nautilus be patched?11:29
Cimicause I don't want an alpha-capable nautilus :)11:34
Cimithere's no reason11:34
kwwiiwell, if you think about it there is really no good reason to do any of this at all11:35
kwwiiit is all about making things look nice11:35
kwwiianyway, I would not suggest making the whole window transparent11:35
Cimithat's why we can't patch nautilus :)11:36
kwwiiwell, if you add transparency to any window it should be added to all windows, I think11:36
kwwiiotherwise it will look quite freaky to see some transparent apps and some not11:37
Cimiso we just say "yes it is possible" but we won't do anything11:38
Cimikwwii, did you reached any mockup^11:39
kwwiiactually, right now I am on holiday but I am still working on stuff11:39
kwwiithere will be a whole row of mockups ready be the beginning of the new year11:39
Cimiok perfect11:40
Cimidid you talked with mark about my sponsorship? I've worked a lot as you can see11:40
kwwiiyes, we layed out plans for what we need to change and made it clear that sponsorship is needed11:41
kwwiibut anything to do with money has to go through my boss11:41
kwwiibecause it is a company, like any other11:42
kwwiiI can only be responsible for so much at any given time11:42
Cimiso we should ask canonical?11:42
kwwiiI work for canonical, and my boss does as well11:43
kwwiiso we are asking canonical ;-)11:43
Cimiin the end11:44
kwwiiI'll talk to scott and find out more info and get back to you11:44
Cimiwhat do i have to do? :D11:44
kwwiimainly it is about impressing mark enough for him to say "I want to do this" and then we say "well, we have to pay someone to do it"11:44
* darkmatter looks at current state of his prototype and laughs insanely12:35
* Toma- joins in the laughter12:35
darkmatterhmmm... I'm thinking fine diagonal for  few elements.....12:36
andreasndarkmatter: hm?12:36
andreasndarkmatter: screenshot?12:36
darkmatterandreasn: not yet. its still 80% clearlooks. but last weeks shots are on my flickr page :)12:37
andreasnhm, let's see, do I have you as a friend?12:37
darkmatterandreasn: am finishing up initial mockups. then refining. lots of ideas to make it look really nice once I do more engine work. going to be very clean, elegant, professional. no super dark outlines on the widgets (more natural looking, but still distinct), little niceties like (on the initial gilouche coloured build) fine diagonal pinstripes in the g-m-m header :)12:41
andreasnwhat's your url to you flickr page now again?12:41
darkmatterto kill the plastic look12:41
andreasnsounds cool12:41
darkmatteroops. thats the gallery12:42
andreasnok, added you as a contact12:43
darkmatteradded you as well12:45
Toma-has there been any talk about ditching the whole windows 95 layout in terms of panels with start buttons?12:45
Toma-12 years on people still emulate it :\12:46
kwwiiToma-: what is your sollution to that problem?12:47
andreasnthere are some nice approaches like gimmie, awn and Big Board coming up12:50
Toma-kwwii➜ i rather like the e17 way of things with the favorites menu12:51
Toma-and a launcher if its really needed12:51
darkmatterI have a cool approach in the works, have a couple devs waiting for mockups.. really need to get those finished12:51
Toma-Gimme is a cool idea12:51
kwwiiahhh, so we copy osx instead :p12:52
Toma-thats my layout at the moment12:52
Toma-moves alot of the focus away from panels12:52
kwwiiright, I am using awn in gnome as well12:53
Toma-darn zombie processes12:53
andreasnawn is nice, I use that as well12:53
Toma-yeh but then, awn is an osx rip off12:54
andreasngimmie is promising since it cares about people and documents12:54
andreasnbut not quite polished12:54
darkmatterkwwii: an interactive, user aware information display for the main ui, a 'menu' that is also user aware, (Pndora is the name of the concept), both are tied into the desktop 'first mate' (Nostromo) which is basically a stream-based 'activity center'12:55
kwwiiright and you are going to come and teach my wife how to use this in 5 years when it is ready, right?12:55
Toma-I think Gimme was probably inspired by this mockup, which as you can see, people like. http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/May-B?content=4583712:56
andreasnrip off and rip off, it's a interface that takes care of launching and running your apps...12:56
Toma-kind of ditches the win95 and mac layout12:56
kwwiiI have nothing against changing things around but there are lots of issues involved and simply being different for the sake of being different isn't always the best answer12:57
kwwiithat is a pretty neat mockup though12:57
Toma-kwwii➜ yeh. but at the same time, evolution is needed when you have windows and mac on the sides trying out all sorts of things12:57
kwwiitrue as well12:58
kwwiiwell, time to take my son to a basketball game...bbl12:58
darkmatterkwwii: true, but what about 'being different for the sake of being better'? ;)12:58
Toma-yeh id hate to just keep rolling along for years giving the wheel a fresh lick of paint, when we should really be designing a hovercar :)12:59
andreasnI think one needs to think in terms of "does a alternative provide us with a better interface that solves a problem" rather than "it's a win95 ripoff"12:59
Toma-andreasn➜ the windows 95 thing is centered around the whole "Click here to start" thought. If you have a panel and a decent way to manage open windows, you can look at better ways to ditch the layout13:00
Toma-and we do have that option13:00
Toma-to an extent the current menu bar thing is doing something different, but really its just spreading Start button over 3 buttons13:01
andreasnI agree that the current default is not ideal at all, after all, I use awn as it scales better :=13:01
andreasnbut I try to stay off thinking about such basic concepts as panel approaches, there are smarter people out there that can work that out than me :)13:02
andreasntime for lunch, later!13:03
darkmatterandreasn: depends. a stream based interface is more task/activity oriented. puts the data first. it also serves to unify things in a more logical manner. the only 'hurdle' as such is the actual interface design. and as far as the main ui goes, its still basically a panel/'slab' type thing, it just works on an entirely different level :)13:03
Toma-darkmatter➜ is that the way sugar works?13:03
darkmatterbut the pael wouldn't be a panel. more of a 'dashboard' of sorts13:04
darkmatterToma: as far as more of an 'activity center' approach.. I believe so13:04
darkmatterToma-: I believe in putting the data first and foremost. basically, abstracting things so that the actual app is of little importance. its still used, but is just a tool that gets selected when we choose to perform a specific task13:08
Toma-i c13:09
darkmatterToma-: I was discussing this in a lot of detail a week or two ago, and someone pointed me to a concept-project that is actually quite similar. I'l link13:11
Toma-oh neat :D13:11
darkmatterone of the elements to making the desktop more of a home (aside from naturalizing workflow in a more organic way), is really stupid-simple to do. its a matter of personalizing (makin the system more user aware). it could be things as simple as a local-time based welcome/part message on login/off, power on/shutdown, whatever. to thing's more complicated, like having certain interface elements 'learn' from the user13:19
darkmatteras far as personalizing goes, it seems rather frivolous, but is really a matter of user-psychology13:21
Toma-im sure with a little bit of philosophising we could all come up with something alot more streamlined13:23
Toma-thats what holidays are for :>13:28
darkmatterToma-: on element I've been attempting to storyboard/discuss is communication, when it comes down to it, be it email, chat (voip, text, video), whatever - there is really no difference between our primary forms of communication (ok, technically the protocols vary, but we are addressing things from the user perspective). so I've been looking at a way to centralize things. basically  akin in some ways to gimmies 'people' but more flex13:30
darkmatterible (and thus powerful)13:30
Toma-a strong communication platform is a good basis. its a shame about so many protocols but in seperate apps, the protocols are adressed quite well13:31
Toma-for instance, my parents still bug me about how to email a photo to someone13:32
Toma-use this program to import, this one to resize it, this one to send it.13:32
darkmatterToma-: yup. they need to be centralized in a 'meta addressbook' of sorts, one that is protocol aware (can display status), etc, and it should have a nice, user friendly, custom widget for 'send to'. that way by clicking the appropriate method (envelope for email or whatever, etc) it sends directly13:35
darkmatterremove all the crud in the middle13:36
darkmatteraction > result13:36
Toma-infact, even a central sort of active contents destination would be good13:37
Toma-use a little popup for 'what do you want to do with this file/s?'13:37
Toma-kde does it for inserted media, but it could be used better for content youre working on13:38
darkmatterwhat would be really cool (been discussing it as well) but would be a pain in the arse to implement would be a 'natural language' command line. so you could type something like "steven, here's is a picture of my dog bobo at my parents place' and have the system send it. the issue being obviously that syntax varies.. but still an interesting idea13:43
Toma-its possible13:44
Toma-look at how chat-bots are created13:44
darkmatterbut more realisically it would be like 'email bobo.png to steven "heare's a picture of my dog that was taken at my parents place"'13:44
Toma- Human: Can you email my picture to darkmatter?13:45
Toma-ALICE: Sure I can email. What is your email address? Your picture to darkmatter?13:45
darkmatterthat's what my current gtk engine project is a part of. its basically a first small step to creating a more inviting, more natural feeling environment. making the 'desktop' feel more organic visually, still the same elements obviously, but less artificial13:53
darkmatterI'm sick of all the hard, plastic feeling lines that are the norm in interface design.13:55
Toma-yeh :(13:55
Toma-gloss makes me feel like im in a hospital or something13:55
darkmatterLOL. it took me long enough to make the initial button design feel 'real'. but in general the design should be 'soft'. use light and shadow to define shape13:57
darkmatteryeah. I dont like the whole 'web 2.0' desktop graphics movement either13:57
darkmatterI'm not into minimalism either. but a lot of the minimalistic stuff does feel a lot more natural than not13:59
darkmatterToma-: but the nice thing is I've actually caught the attention of some devs who are interested in 'playing'. so I'm going to finish spitting out the live mockup of the gtk real quick, then do up a few quick ui mockups and see if we can get some stuff started :D14:02
darkmatterandreasn: ignore the general look, it still looks primarily like clearlooks, but I'd like your opinion on the scrollbars14:25
Toma-right side of the raised slider looks a little lost since the background is nearly the same colour at the slider, imho14:29
darkmatterhmmm... yeah14:30
darkmatterhmm... clipping the gradient a bit should fix that14:32
darkmatterToma-: the fun part is I'm working on everything twice. first mockup a particular set of widgets in pixmaps, then one its 'good enough' for releasible quality I crack open my build dir and start messing in cairo. and its actually a lot less work that way, as I avoid constant rebuilds ;)14:38
Toma-sounds sensible :) I did the same sort of thing in SVG when i made my e17 theme14:39
darkmatterhmm.. I shouls do a matching e theme one its done :)14:40
Toma-yeh the clearlooks port looks terrible14:40
darkmatterToma-: I was actually thinking that, with all the animations that can add bling, a really clean, rice paper level of minimalism would look really neat in e. take the common 'rainbow ribbon' motif that is used to spice up minimal themes and animate it :D14:44
Toma-i only used a little splash of animation in my theme14:45
Toma-makes it alot less 'flash-for-the-sake-of-being-flash'14:46
darkmatterwell. not necessarily that minimal, but maybe gaia like *shrugs*14:46
Toma-ahh yeh14:46
darkmatterToma-: yeah. I vew animation as a tool. basically it should help bring focus14:46
darkmatterlike, with the engine I'm working on for gtk, subtle 'pulse' animations on mouseover14:47
darkmatternothing drastic14:47
Toma-http://julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=en/index.html && http://www.alicebot.org/about.html && http://www.stanford.edu/~dramage/gci/14:48
Toma-that sounds nice14:48
Toma-i didnt know gtk could do animations14:48
darkmatterToma-: and it should be used to smooth transitions as well. thats about it imho14:48
Toma-Speech to text && AI Robot && command line14:49
darkmatteryup. bookmarked :)14:49
Toma-time for sleep and more holidaying. cheerio15:02
darkmatterToma-: currently I'm just really working on defining the feel of the lighting for the gtk, so basically it will initially feel a little like a softened clearlooks (long way about it, but probably the best path) once thats done then the fun begins, going to give it a more artsy feel, but still practical enough in design to appeal to a wide range of users (I want the engine to 'work' for the home, the office, the minimalist, and those15:03
darkmatter with a more refined aesthetic) but I most definitely dont want it to be drab or generic15:03

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