[00:00] <kwwii> I laughed for like 2 days when I figured out that the splash screen accepts normal png files but still only does 8bit transparency
[00:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: meh. :)
[00:00] <mgunes> I'm not concerned about where it ends, because, as I said, I'm not saying "the less DE branding, the better"
[00:00] <mgunes> I'm talking about one specific thing
[00:01] <kwwii> for now all I can say is that officialy we have discussed this and decided not to do it
[00:01] <kwwii> it is a gerneral rule which I thinkis totally ok to follow
[00:03] <_MMA_> Even in this instance I really dont think it matters. :) Any you "Murat" are just talking about this one thing but what about the next person, and the next. I really think the amount of branding we can do now is good. The more you remove the more I think it insults GNOME. Just me. ;)
[00:03] <_MMA_> s/Any/And
[00:04] <kwwii> that is kinda the tinking behind it
[00:04] <mgunes> kwwii, could you comment on bug 176417 to reflect this?
[00:04] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 176417 in gnome-system-monitor ""System" tab should have Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176417
[00:05] <kwwii> done
[00:06] <mgunes> thanks
[00:06] <kwwii> np
[00:12] <somerville32> Ok
[00:12] <somerville32> I think I got a package :)
[00:14] <kwwii> somerville32: killer
[00:14] <kwwii> if you can do a debuild on it we can get someone to include it
[00:15] <kwwii> we need to post the links to the debuild pieces of every package to a motu dev
[00:15] <kwwii> normally, I can see that this happens
[00:15] <_MMA_> Really, if this *is* a temp package its WAY more work then it needs to be. :P
[00:16] <kwwii> in any case, I would start by posting links to those debuild things in the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop channel
[00:16] <kwwii> _MMA_: temp until we figure out the final scheme
[00:16] <kwwii> that is a long way
[00:16] <kwwii> it will probably stay with this packaging until we have the final stuff done for hardy
[00:16] <_MMA_> Then no need to build a new package.
[00:17] <_MMA_> Just update the current one in BZR and have Seb push the changes.
[00:19] <somerville32> Oh
[00:19] <kwwii> _MMA_: I would rather take this step now and see how things work out
[00:20] <kwwii> if we cannot change things, we only need to update a few parts
[00:20] <somerville32> This is confusing.
[00:20] <kwwii> if we do change it, well, we change it and have to work on it
[00:20] <kwwii> for now, this is the right thing to do
[00:20] <kwwii> several people have already told me why we cannot change things
[00:20] <kwwii> so it might be a step we want to in hardy+1 first
[00:21] <_MMA_> Guaranteed, you _WILL_ have to touch this package again.
[00:21] <_MMA_> oh.
[00:21] <_MMA_> Then if thats the case, (+1) you should have said when I asked. :)
[00:21]  * somerville32 would like to note that there is already a ubuntu-wallpapers package
[00:22] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'll just strangle you in April. :P
[00:22] <kwwii> somerville32: right, that was before my time, and we probably want to go back to that
[00:22] <kwwii> although with a different name for the actual pic
[00:22] <somerville32> kwwii, It has been updated for hardy
[00:22] <somerville32> It already conflicts gutsy-wallpapers
[00:22] <kwwii> :-)
[00:23] <kwwii> have to talk to seb about this tuff
[00:23] <kwwii> stuff
[00:23] <kwwii> I have no idea :-)
[00:23] <somerville32> Or maybe dholbach since he seems to be the one doing the work
[00:23] <kwwii> the biggest problem is that dholbach is no longer working on this stuff
[00:23] <_MMA_> somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?
[00:23] <kwwii> so he can also give information and an opinion but he will not work on this in the future
[00:24] <somerville32> _MMA_, yes
[00:24] <somerville32> I think it is best we disregard what I've done tonight and wait until we have a meeting with all the players
[00:24] <somerville32> There seems to be a lot of duplication going on
[00:25] <kwwii> right
[00:25] <somerville32> ubuntu-artwork depends on ubuntu-wallpapers and not gutsy-wallpapers
[00:26] <_MMA_> If everyone would just listen to me it would be fine! :P
[00:27] <_MMA_> Oh well. kwwii will just end up copying Ubuntu Studio's package for +1. ;)
[00:29] <somerville32> kwwii, It seems like we've already migrated to using a standard ubuntu-wallpaper package in Hardy
[00:29] <somerville32> And it is managed in bazaar
[00:30] <_MMA_> The package isnt the big problem. Though this helps, its the naming of the wallpaper.
[00:30] <somerville32> _MMA_, and what are you recommending?
[00:30] <_MMA_> But after Hardy does seem like the best time to have a new setup.
[00:30] <kwwii> somerville32: hrm, perhaps we should talk to others before moving on
[00:30] <kwwii> maybe things have changed without me knowing about it
[00:30] <somerville32> Things _have_ moved
[00:30] <somerville32> I'm looking at the hardy packages right now
[00:31] <_MMA_> Not the way they need to though.
[00:31] <kwwii> lol, and they expect me to know about that without telling me
[00:31] <_MMA_> The file name needs to be standard.
[00:31] <_MMA_> We're going around in circles.
[00:31] <somerville32> _MMA_, It is standard. :P
[00:31] <_MMA_> "_MMA_: somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?" "somerville32: _MMA_, yes"
[00:31] <somerville32> _MMA_, Everything is now standard. The only thing weird is the standard name for the standard background - it still starts with warty-
[00:32] <_MMA_> "_MMA_: The file name needs to be standard."
[00:32] <somerville32> I think we're arguing semantics
[00:33] <kwwii> so what has changed?
[00:33] <somerville32> kwwii, there is a ubuntu-wallpapers package and ubuntu-artwork depends on it
[00:33] <_MMA_> No. Its the same thing Ive said all day today and before you joined the channel for weeks now. ;)
[00:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: The *package* name has changed only. Not the file name.
[00:34] <kwwii> hehe
[00:34] <somerville32> Who cares about the file name?
[00:34] <somerville32> Thats the smallest problem
[00:34] <_MMA_> No its not.
[00:34] <kwwii> hehe, that is what all the other devs said
[00:34] <kwwii> it is very important
[00:34] <kwwii> but for now, we can just update that packagte
[00:34] <_MMA_> Naming it based on a release was short-sighted.
[00:34] <kwwii> pachage
[00:34] <kwwii> erm
[00:34] <kwwii> package
[00:35] <somerville32> The big issue was that the package name was dependent on the release name - ie. it kept changing each release
[00:35] <somerville32> That caused problems
[00:35] <_MMA_> No, as that can be a easy depend change. Change the file name of the default wallpaper breaks upgrades.
[00:36] <_MMA_> *Changing
[00:36] <somerville32> Are we planning to change the filename for the default wallpaper each release?
[00:36] <_MMA_> No. Just a one time change to something generic.
[00:36] <kwwii> the update system just has to check for that
[00:37] <kwwii> it is not that big of a deal
[00:37] <_MMA_> But like Ken finally said, it should be done for +1.
[00:37] <somerville32> The fact that the file name is currently not generic is NOT a big deal.
[00:37] <kwwii> nope
[00:37] <somerville32> Having to create a new package each release, IMHO, is tedious and was the issue and it seems resolved
[00:38] <_MMA_> somerville32: Its a big deal if people have been wanting change it since friggin Hardy. If people didnt want to change it sure. Doesnt matter.
[00:39] <_MMA_> Its just a oddity. An OCD kinda thing. Still it was short-sighted.
[00:39] <somerville32> Right
[00:39] <somerville32> So, I don't see how you can value this change over the now not having to create a new package each release
[00:40] <somerville32> Whatever the filename is, it really makes no difference besides being "neat" and logical.
[00:41] <_MMA_> Well earlier in the chat kwwii said the new "package" was called "hardy-". Thats bad as far as making a new package every time.
[00:41] <somerville32> The new package is ubuntu-wallpapers
[00:41] <_MMA_> But what started all this was simple the file name.
[00:41] <_MMA_> *simply
[00:42] <somerville32> What package needs to be changed?
[00:42] <somerville32> To change the default name?
[00:42] <_MMA_> So like I said the package could be called anything. The filename has been the issue.
[00:43] <_MMA_> Um...
[00:43] <_MMA_> Im not sure.
[00:43]  * _MMA_ looks.
[00:43] <somerville32> _MMA_, I disagree. The filename IMHO is not an issue at all, just an oddity
[00:43] <_MMA_> TheMuso might know off-hand.
[00:44] <_MMA_> somerville32: Dammit! Its an issue because its what started this chat! :) Odd as it is.
[00:44] <somerville32> _MMA_, Weird. I'm pretty sure it was the workflow
[00:45] <_MMA_> Someone noticed many releases ago that it was called warty still but changing it would break things. Thats why we''re having this chat. :)
[00:46] <somerville32> Then this would be a big waste of time.
[00:46] <_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio sets the default in our -settings package. I gotta look to see where Ubuntu does it.
[00:46] <somerville32> kwwii, I see you're an admin of ~ubuntu-art-pkg
[00:47] <kwwii> somerville32: yepp
[00:48] <_MMA_> somerville32: Ubuntu does it in "ubuntu-artwork" Look in "/usr/share/gconf/defaults"
[00:48] <somerville32> _MMA_, I don't see it setting the background image
[00:48] <somerville32> _MMA_, only themes
[00:48] <_MMA_> /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:49] <TheMuso> _MMA_: for what?
[00:49]  * kwwii heads off to sleep
[00:49] <_MMA_> somerville32: Sorry. /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_gutsy-wallpapers
[00:49] <_MMA_> TheMuso: We found it. What package sets the art defaults in Ubuntu.
[00:50] <TheMuso> Ah ok.
[00:50] <somerville32> Umm...
[00:51] <_MMA_> somerville32: So Im guessing the new one will be "/usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-wallpapers" And the 1st line still reads "/desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename "/usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png""
[00:52] <somerville32> That file doesn't belong to ubuntu-artwork
[00:52] <somerville32> It appears to me that it is indeed gutsy-wallpapers
[00:53] <_MMA_> Synaptic shows different.
[00:53] <_MMA_> Crap.
[00:53] <kwwii> lol
[00:53] <kwwii> go to bed
[00:53] <TheMuso> luke@marin:~$ dpkg -S /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:53] <_MMA_> Yeah.
[00:53] <TheMuso> ubuntu-artwork: /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:53] <TheMuso> luke@marin:~$
[00:53] <kwwii> dream about it
[00:55] <TheMuso> hrm. Ubuntu-artwork is not maintained in bzr?
[00:55] <_MMA_> So kwwii I think you need to get a meeting together with the interested parties so we can go over this for +1. Or, just copy what Ubuntu Studio does. ;)
[00:55] <kwwii> ;-)
[00:57] <somerville32> _MMA_, What do you guys do?
[00:57] <_MMA_> Well we're looking at moving all the art to 1 source package.
[00:57] <_MMA_> Minus the settings though.
[00:58] <_MMA_> I guess we'll have to look at that.
[00:59] <somerville32> kwwii, So can you add me to that team?
[01:01] <kwwii> Cody A.W. Somerville ?
[01:01] <somerville32> Correct
[01:01] <kwwii> done
[01:01] <somerville32> Thanks
[01:01] <somerville32> kwwii, Are you going to schedule a meeting?
[01:02] <somerville32> I'm eager to see things get resolved.
[01:02] <kwwii> somerville32: yes, in a day or so I will announce another meeting this omnth
[01:02] <kwwii> month
[01:02] <somerville32> kwwii, Shouldn't we get this squared away before Alpha 2?
[01:02] <kwwii> we should try to do it as soon as possible
[01:02] <kwwii> BUT, I am on vacation and have other work to do as well
[01:03] <somerville32> I know in the past we've had artwork freezes and what not
[01:03] <somerville32> Do we have a schedule for hardy?
[01:03] <somerville32> (maybe we could update the topic to provide some of that info/links to important docs?)
[01:04] <_MMA_> You know, Ubuntu Studio just follows Daniels "-look" package. And actually the only thing outside of our "-look" package is the icons.
[01:04] <kwwii> :-)
[01:04] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah
[01:04] <kwwii> nobody wanted to deal with that
[01:04] <_MMA_> Outside of the "-look" source package.
[01:04] <kwwii> I made a howto and everything
[01:05] <_MMA_> Did you work with Daniel on the -look package?
[01:05] <kwwii> yes
[01:05] <_MMA_> Well why didnt they switch since Daniel made it?
[01:06] <_MMA_> they=Ubuntu
[01:07] <kwwii> 2am here, going to bed really soon
[01:07] <_MMA_> :)
[01:07] <kwwii> I think they wanted me to do it
[01:07] <_MMA_> You said that an hour ago. :P
[01:07] <kwwii> no doubt
[01:09] <_MMA_> TheMuso: https://launchpad.net/example-look
[01:11]  * TheMuso pulls the branch associated with that project.
[01:11] <_MMA_> Hehe. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg
[01:11] <TheMuso> Does example-look get used for anything currently?
[01:11]  * _MMA_ didnt know there was a team. :P
[01:13] <_MMA_> kwwii: Luke is gonna join the team. Please approve so he can clean it up like he did our source.
[01:13] <_MMA_> There's files everywhere that should be removed.
[01:14] <_MMA_> Duplicates and such.
[01:15] <TheMuso> Join request sent.
[09:43] <dilomo> hi all
[09:52] <Cimi> kwwii, did you read my blog?
[11:14] <kwwii> hi Cimi
[11:15] <kwwii> no but I saw a pic from you
[11:15] <Cimi> so read it
[11:16] <kwwii> will do
[11:17] <kwwii> hehe, and you told me I was crazy
[11:26] <Cimi> kwwii, yes
[11:27] <Cimi> nautilus can't be patched of course
[11:27] <kwwii> why is that?
[11:29] <Cimi> ?
[11:29] <kwwii> why can't nautilus be patched?
[11:34] <Cimi> cause I don't want an alpha-capable nautilus :)
[11:34] <Cimi> there's no reason
[11:35] <kwwii> well, if you think about it there is really no good reason to do any of this at all
[11:35] <kwwii> it is all about making things look nice
[11:35] <kwwii> anyway, I would not suggest making the whole window transparent
[11:36] <Cimi> that's why we can't patch nautilus :)
[11:36] <kwwii> well, if you add transparency to any window it should be added to all windows, I think
[11:37] <kwwii> otherwise it will look quite freaky to see some transparent apps and some not
[11:38] <Cimi> so we just say "yes it is possible" but we won't do anything
[11:38] <kwwii> :p
[11:39] <Cimi> kwwii, did you reached any mockup^
[11:39] <Cimi> ?
[11:39] <kwwii> actually, right now I am on holiday but I am still working on stuff
[11:39] <kwwii> there will be a whole row of mockups ready be the beginning of the new year
[11:40] <Cimi> ok perfect
[11:40] <Cimi> did you talked with mark about my sponsorship? I've worked a lot as you can see
[11:41] <kwwii> yes, we layed out plans for what we need to change and made it clear that sponsorship is needed
[11:41] <kwwii> but anything to do with money has to go through my boss
[11:42] <Cimi> why?
[11:42] <kwwii> because it is a company, like any other
[11:42] <kwwii> I can only be responsible for so much at any given time
[11:42] <Cimi> so we should ask canonical?
[11:43] <kwwii> I work for canonical, and my boss does as well
[11:43] <kwwii> so we are asking canonical ;-)
[11:44] <Cimi> in the end
[11:44] <kwwii> I'll talk to scott and find out more info and get back to you
[11:44] <Cimi> what do i have to do? :D
[11:44] <Cimi> ok
[11:44] <kwwii> mainly it is about impressing mark enough for him to say "I want to do this" and then we say "well, we have to pay someone to do it"
[11:46] <Cimi> kk
[12:35]  * darkmatter looks at current state of his prototype and laughs insanely
[12:35]  * Toma- joins in the laughter
[12:36] <darkmatter> hmmm... I'm thinking fine diagonal for  few elements.....
[12:36] <andreasn> darkmatter: hm?
[12:36] <andreasn> darkmatter: screenshot?
[12:37] <darkmatter> andreasn: not yet. its still 80% clearlooks. but last weeks shots are on my flickr page :)
[12:37] <andreasn> hm, let's see, do I have you as a friend?
[12:41] <darkmatter> andreasn: am finishing up initial mockups. then refining. lots of ideas to make it look really nice once I do more engine work. going to be very clean, elegant, professional. no super dark outlines on the widgets (more natural looking, but still distinct), little niceties like (on the initial gilouche coloured build) fine diagonal pinstripes in the g-m-m header :)
[12:41] <andreasn> what's your url to you flickr page now again?
[12:41] <darkmatter> to kill the plastic look
[12:41] <andreasn> sounds cool
[12:42] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/
[12:42] <darkmatter> oops. thats the gallery
[12:43] <andreasn> ok, added you as a contact
[12:43] <darkmatter> ok
[12:45] <darkmatter> added you as well
[12:45] <Toma-> has there been any talk about ditching the whole windows 95 layout in terms of panels with start buttons?
[12:46] <darkmatter> *shrugs*
[12:46] <Toma-> 12 years on people still emulate it :\
[12:47] <darkmatter> indeed
[12:47] <kwwii> Toma-: what is your sollution to that problem?
[12:50] <andreasn> there are some nice approaches like gimmie, awn and Big Board coming up
[12:51] <Toma-> kwwii➜ i rather like the e17 way of things with the favorites menu
[12:51] <Toma-> and a launcher if its really needed
[12:51] <darkmatter> I have a cool approach in the works, have a couple devs waiting for mockups.. really need to get those finished
[12:51] <Toma-> Gimme is a cool idea
[12:52] <kwwii> ahhh, so we copy osx instead :p
[12:52] <Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png
[12:52] <Toma-> thats my layout at the moment
[12:52] <Toma-> moves alot of the focus away from panels
[12:53] <kwwii> right, I am using awn in gnome as well
[12:53] <Toma-> darn zombie processes
[12:53] <andreasn> awn is nice, I use that as well
[12:54] <Toma-> yeh but then, awn is an osx rip off
[12:54] <andreasn> gimmie is promising since it cares about people and documents
[12:54] <andreasn> but not quite polished
[12:55] <darkmatter> kwwii: an interactive, user aware information display for the main ui, a 'menu' that is also user aware, (Pndora is the name of the concept), both are tied into the desktop 'first mate' (Nostromo) which is basically a stream-based 'activity center'
[12:55] <darkmatter> :P
[12:55] <darkmatter> *Pandora
[12:55] <kwwii> right and you are going to come and teach my wife how to use this in 5 years when it is ready, right?
[12:56] <Toma-> I think Gimme was probably inspired by this mockup, which as you can see, people like. http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/May-B?content=45837
[12:56] <andreasn> rip off and rip off, it's a interface that takes care of launching and running your apps...
[12:56] <Toma-> kind of ditches the win95 and mac layout
[12:57] <kwwii> I have nothing against changing things around but there are lots of issues involved and simply being different for the sake of being different isn't always the best answer
[12:57] <andreasn> yeah
[12:57] <kwwii> that is a pretty neat mockup though
[12:57] <Toma-> kwwii➜ yeh. but at the same time, evolution is needed when you have windows and mac on the sides trying out all sorts of things
[12:58] <kwwii> true as well
[12:58] <kwwii> well, time to take my son to a basketball game...bbl
[12:58] <darkmatter> kwwii: true, but what about 'being different for the sake of being better'? ;)
[12:58] <kwwii> :-)
[12:59] <Toma-> yeh id hate to just keep rolling along for years giving the wheel a fresh lick of paint, when we should really be designing a hovercar :)
[12:59] <andreasn> I think one needs to think in terms of "does a alternative provide us with a better interface that solves a problem" rather than "it's a win95 ripoff"
[13:00] <Toma-> andreasn➜ the windows 95 thing is centered around the whole "Click here to start" thought. If you have a panel and a decent way to manage open windows, you can look at better ways to ditch the layout
[13:00] <Toma-> and we do have that option
[13:01] <Toma-> to an extent the current menu bar thing is doing something different, but really its just spreading Start button over 3 buttons
[13:01] <andreasn> I agree that the current default is not ideal at all, after all, I use awn as it scales better :=
[13:01] <andreasn> :)
[13:02] <andreasn> but I try to stay off thinking about such basic concepts as panel approaches, there are smarter people out there that can work that out than me :)
[13:02] <Toma-> :)
[13:03] <andreasn> time for lunch, later!
[13:03] <Toma-> l8r
[13:03] <darkmatter> andreasn: depends. a stream based interface is more task/activity oriented. puts the data first. it also serves to unify things in a more logical manner. the only 'hurdle' as such is the actual interface design. and as far as the main ui goes, its still basically a panel/'slab' type thing, it just works on an entirely different level :)
[13:03] <Toma-> darkmatter➜ is that the way sugar works?
[13:04] <darkmatter> but the pael wouldn't be a panel. more of a 'dashboard' of sorts
[13:04] <darkmatter> Toma: as far as more of an 'activity center' approach.. I believe so
[13:05] <Toma-> right
[13:08] <darkmatter> Toma-: I believe in putting the data first and foremost. basically, abstracting things so that the actual app is of little importance. its still used, but is just a tool that gets selected when we choose to perform a specific task
[13:09] <Toma-> i c
[13:11] <darkmatter> Toma-: I was discussing this in a lot of detail a week or two ago, and someone pointed me to a concept-project that is actually quite similar. I'l link
[13:11] <darkmatter> http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/freeman/lifestreams.html
[13:11] <Toma-> oh neat :D
[13:19] <darkmatter> one of the elements to making the desktop more of a home (aside from naturalizing workflow in a more organic way), is really stupid-simple to do. its a matter of personalizing (makin the system more user aware). it could be things as simple as a local-time based welcome/part message on login/off, power on/shutdown, whatever. to thing's more complicated, like having certain interface elements 'learn' from the user
[13:21] <darkmatter> as far as personalizing goes, it seems rather frivolous, but is really a matter of user-psychology
[13:23] <Toma-> im sure with a little bit of philosophising we could all come up with something alot more streamlined
[13:23] <darkmatter> yup
[13:28] <Toma-> thats what holidays are for :>
[13:30] <darkmatter> Toma-: on element I've been attempting to storyboard/discuss is communication, when it comes down to it, be it email, chat (voip, text, video), whatever - there is really no difference between our primary forms of communication (ok, technically the protocols vary, but we are addressing things from the user perspective). so I've been looking at a way to centralize things. basically  akin in some ways to gimmies 'people' but more flex
[13:30] <darkmatter> ible (and thus powerful)
[13:30] <darkmatter> *one
[13:30] <Toma-> indeed
[13:31] <Toma-> a strong communication platform is a good basis. its a shame about so many protocols but in seperate apps, the protocols are adressed quite well
[13:32] <Toma-> for instance, my parents still bug me about how to email a photo to someone
[13:32] <Toma-> use this program to import, this one to resize it, this one to send it.
[13:35] <darkmatter> Toma-: yup. they need to be centralized in a 'meta addressbook' of sorts, one that is protocol aware (can display status), etc, and it should have a nice, user friendly, custom widget for 'send to'. that way by clicking the appropriate method (envelope for email or whatever, etc) it sends directly
[13:36] <darkmatter> remove all the crud in the middle
[13:36] <darkmatter> action > result
[13:36] <Toma-> yeh
[13:37] <Toma-> infact, even a central sort of active contents destination would be good
[13:37] <darkmatter> yup
[13:37] <Toma-> use a little popup for 'what do you want to do with this file/s?'
[13:38] <darkmatter> yup
[13:38] <Toma-> kde does it for inserted media, but it could be used better for content youre working on
[13:43] <darkmatter> what would be really cool (been discussing it as well) but would be a pain in the arse to implement would be a 'natural language' command line. so you could type something like "steven, here's is a picture of my dog bobo at my parents place' and have the system send it. the issue being obviously that syntax varies.. but still an interesting idea
[13:44] <Toma-> its possible
[13:44] <Toma-> look at how chat-bots are created
[13:44] <darkmatter> but more realisically it would be like 'email bobo.png to steven "heare's a picture of my dog that was taken at my parents place"'
[13:45] <Toma-> http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=f5d922d97e345aa1
[13:45] <Toma->  Human: Can you email my picture to darkmatter?
[13:45] <Toma-> ALICE: Sure I can email. What is your email address? Your picture to darkmatter?
[13:45] <Toma-> :D
[13:46] <darkmatter> :)
[13:53] <darkmatter> that's what my current gtk engine project is a part of. its basically a first small step to creating a more inviting, more natural feeling environment. making the 'desktop' feel more organic visually, still the same elements obviously, but less artificial
[13:53] <Toma-> cool
[13:55] <darkmatter> I'm sick of all the hard, plastic feeling lines that are the norm in interface design.
[13:55] <Toma-> yeh :(
[13:55] <Toma-> gloss makes me feel like im in a hospital or something
[13:57] <darkmatter> LOL. it took me long enough to make the initial button design feel 'real'. but in general the design should be 'soft'. use light and shadow to define shape
[13:57] <darkmatter> yeah. I dont like the whole 'web 2.0' desktop graphics movement either
[13:59] <darkmatter> I'm not into minimalism either. but a lot of the minimalistic stuff does feel a lot more natural than not
[14:02] <darkmatter> Toma-: but the nice thing is I've actually caught the attention of some devs who are interested in 'playing'. so I'm going to finish spitting out the live mockup of the gtk real quick, then do up a few quick ui mockups and see if we can get some stuff started :D
[14:03] <darkmatter> brb.
[14:12] <Toma-> wb
[14:15] <darkmatter> :)
[14:25] <darkmatter> andreasn: ignore the general look, it still looks primarily like clearlooks, but I'd like your opinion on the scrollbars
[14:25] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/2112165573/
[14:29] <Toma-> right side of the raised slider looks a little lost since the background is nearly the same colour at the slider, imho
[14:30] <darkmatter> hmmm... yeah
[14:32] <darkmatter> hmm... clipping the gradient a bit should fix that
[14:32] <Toma-> *nod*
[14:38] <darkmatter> Toma-: the fun part is I'm working on everything twice. first mockup a particular set of widgets in pixmaps, then one its 'good enough' for releasible quality I crack open my build dir and start messing in cairo. and its actually a lot less work that way, as I avoid constant rebuilds ;)
[14:39] <Toma-> sounds sensible :) I did the same sort of thing in SVG when i made my e17 theme
[14:40] <darkmatter> hmm.. I shouls do a matching e theme one its done :)
[14:40] <darkmatter> *should
[14:40] <Toma-> yeh the clearlooks port looks terrible
[14:41] <darkmatter> *nods*
[14:44] <darkmatter> Toma-: I was actually thinking that, with all the animations that can add bling, a really clean, rice paper level of minimalism would look really neat in e. take the common 'rainbow ribbon' motif that is used to spice up minimal themes and animate it :D
[14:45] <Toma-> yeh
[14:45] <Toma-> i only used a little splash of animation in my theme
[14:46] <Toma-> makes it alot less 'flash-for-the-sake-of-being-flash'
[14:46] <darkmatter> well. not necessarily that minimal, but maybe gaia like *shrugs*
[14:46] <Toma-> ahh yeh
[14:46] <darkmatter> Toma-: yeah. I vew animation as a tool. basically it should help bring focus
[14:47] <darkmatter> like, with the engine I'm working on for gtk, subtle 'pulse' animations on mouseover
[14:47] <darkmatter> nothing drastic
[14:48] <Toma-> http://julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=en/index.html && http://www.alicebot.org/about.html && http://www.stanford.edu/~dramage/gci/
[14:48] <Toma-> :)
[14:48] <Toma-> that sounds nice
[14:48] <Toma-> i didnt know gtk could do animations
[14:48] <darkmatter> Toma-: and it should be used to smooth transitions as well. thats about it imho
[14:49] <Toma-> Speech to text && AI Robot && command line
[14:49] <darkmatter> yup. bookmarked :)
[15:02] <Toma-> time for sleep and more holidaying. cheerio
[15:03] <darkmatter> Toma-: currently I'm just really working on defining the feel of the lighting for the gtk, so basically it will initially feel a little like a softened clearlooks (long way about it, but probably the best path) once thats done then the fun begins, going to give it a more artsy feel, but still practical enough in design to appeal to a wide range of users (I want the engine to 'work' for the home, the office, the minimalist, and those
[15:03] <darkmatter>  with a more refined aesthetic) but I most definitely dont want it to be drab or generic