[01:49] <nealmcb> @schedule denver
[01:49] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 18 Dec 08:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 05:00: MOTU meeting
[07:57] <kraut> moin
[16:00] <soren> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is soren.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <soren> Welcome to the Ubuntu Server community meeting.
[16:00] <soren> First: Introduction round:
[16:00] <soren> I'm Soren. I work for Canonical on the server team.
[16:01] <soren> Mathiaz in hiking around in Laos. dendrobates is busy.
[16:01] <soren> Tough crowd...
[16:01] <pygi> :P
[16:01] <sommer> hey soren
[16:01] <soren> Am I the only one here?
[16:02] <pygi> no, I am here
[16:02] <pygi> do we also have to introduce? :)
[16:02] <soren> That was the plan.
[16:02] <pygi> I'm Mario, I'm an upstream developer for various projects
[16:02] <pygi> most notable of them probably being Libburnia project
[16:02] <nijaba> hello
[16:03] <sommer> I'm Adam Sommer so far working moslty on the Server Guide documentation
[16:03]  * nijaba thinks that sommer does a great job at it
[16:03] <soren> nijaba, jdstrand: We're just introducing ourselves...
[16:03] <jdstrand> ah
[16:03] <sommer> nijaba: thx man
[16:04] <pygi> oh yes, I also wrote the Edubuntu Handbook :P
[16:04] <sommer> we were just doing some intros
[16:04] <nijaba> So I'm Nick Barcet, Ubuntu Server product manager
[16:04] <jdstrand> I am Jamie Strandboge and am an Ubuntu Security Engineer.  I help with Ubuntu Server wherever I can
[16:04] <soren> Ok, I think that's everyone?
[16:04] <pygi> yup, seems so
[16:05] <soren> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:05] <soren> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:05] <soren> Meeting log:
[16:05] <soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071211
[16:05] <zul> hey
[16:05] <soren> ACTION: nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
[16:06] <soren> Hi, zul.
[16:06] <nijaba> done
[16:06]  * soren hugs nijaba 
[16:06] <soren> That's it, it seems :)
[16:06]  * nijaba blushes
[16:06] <soren> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[16:06] <soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
[16:06] <soren> For your clicky-clicky pleasure..
[16:07] <soren> Triage openldap bugs
[16:07] <soren> I've not looked this one bit, I'm afraid. Anyone?
[16:08] <soren> No? I blame the holidays.
[16:08] <soren> Triage samba bugs
[16:08] <soren> Same.. :(
[16:08] <soren> mathiaz is our master bug triager :)
[16:08] <sommer> it does seem like things have slowed down... is that normal for this time of year
[16:08]  * nijaba think that thaïland should be forbidden to ubuntu devs
[16:09] <soren> ..and Laos.
[16:09] <soren> :)
[16:09] <jdstrand> sommer: kees and I triaged a couple CVEs ;)
[16:09]  * soren ^5s jdstrand
[16:09] <nijaba> And I triagged a few JeOS issues
[16:09]  * soren hugs nijaba again
[16:09] <jdstrand> (that was actual meant for soren -- little to quick on the tab)
[16:10] <jdstrand> s/to/too/
[16:10] <soren> Ok, let's just leave those two items there, shall we?
[16:10] <soren> Packager corner
[16:10] <soren> Merge packages from Debian
[16:10]  * jdstrand wonders how long he can blame his keyboard for his typing skills...
[16:10] <soren> I think we managed to get to the bottom of these.
[16:10] <soren> jdstrand: :)
[16:11] <soren> Improve apache package
[16:11] <soren> Not assigned to anyone..
[16:11] <jdstrand> as soren knows, he reviewed and uploaded the libnss-ldap and libpam-ldap merges of mine
[16:11] <soren> jdstrand: Sure did. :)
[16:11] <soren> Has anyone looked at "Default ssl configuration for apache"?
[16:12]  * nijaba thinks it is his turn to hug someone... soren and jdstrand maybe ?
[16:12] <soren> :)
[16:12]  * jdstrand always welcomes a hug, and hugs nijaba back :)
[16:12] <soren> It seems not. Any takers?
[16:12] <soren> (The "Default ssl configuration for apache" thing. Not the hugs)
[16:13] <jdstrand> soren: there was a gutsy goal for bug #135624
[16:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135624 in php5 "libapache2-mod-php5 should provide LAMP test page" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135624
[16:13] <soren> jdstrand: Did that involve ssl?
[16:13] <sommer> so apache is going to inlcude ssl or will it be a seperate apache-ssl package?
[16:14] <pygi> separate package, being pulled automatically is the way to go me things =)
[16:14] <soren> sommer: apache-ssl is a completely different thing.
[16:14] <nijaba> the main problem is that the script to generate the certificates is missing it seems
[16:14]  * pygi hides
[16:14] <jdstrand> soren: heh.  uh, no...
[16:14] <soren> nijaba: It's there. It's in ssl-cert.
[16:14]  * jdstrand stops 'oh-ohing' and puts his hand down
[16:14] <pygi> nijaba: because we used to have the script before, today you have to do it manually
[16:14] <pygi> with openssl thingy
[16:14] <soren> pygi: It's in ssl-cert?
[16:14] <pygi> no idea, I didnt check
[16:14] <pygi> but by default, it's not there :p
[16:15] <soren> $ dpkg -L ssl-cert | grep make-ssl-cert
[16:15] <soren> /usr/sbin/make-ssl-cert
[16:15] <nijaba> soren: it used to be in path, so it was easy
[16:15] <soren> /usr/sbin is in $PATH
[16:15] <sommer> doesn't ssl-cert generate the snake-oil cert and key?
[16:15] <soren> sommer: Yes.
[16:15] <sommer> gotcha, is the plan to use that for apache?
[16:16] <soren> sommer: I'd sure assume so.
[16:16] <nijaba> I am talking about apache2-ssl-certificate which used to be there and is still referenced in a few docs
[16:16] <soren> That's the right thing to do if you're not using proper certificates.
[16:16] <soren> nijaba: Ok. We should fix the docs then.
[16:16] <soren> nijaba: ..and make it all easier. I do remember it being quite a bit more tricky than necessary.
[16:16] <nijaba> soren: fine with me
[16:17] <soren> sommer: Will you look into this?
[16:17] <sommer> soren: sure
[16:17] <soren> sommer: You can try to document it, and I can do any code changes if you find something that should be obviously better.
[16:17] <nijaba> I would recommend adding a "apache2-ssl-certificate" page to the wiki that points to the new up to date procedure
[16:17] <sommer> I don't think the apache2-ssl-certificate is mentioned in the "official" docs, but I seem to remember it's in the wiki
[16:18] <soren> [ACTION]: sommer will look into documenting how to set up apache with ssl
[16:18] <MootBot> ACTION received: : sommer will look into documenting how to set up apache with ssl
[16:18] <soren> Ok, next item..
[16:19] <soren> "Notify need to restart apache2 when installing a new module"
[16:19] <soren> I belive I contested this last time.
[16:19] <nijaba> google 'apache2-ssl-certificate site:help.ubuntu.com'
[16:19] <soren> Which modules require a restart and don't do it?
[16:19] <soren> Yes, that's the answer I got last time, too.
[16:19] <sommer> nijaba: cool not too many
[16:20] <nijaba> sommer: still think that we should have a wiki explaining the change and the correct procedure
[16:20] <soren> Does anyone object to removing that item from the Roadmap? I've not seen any evidence that this issue exists?
[16:20] <sommer> nijaba: yep, I'll create a page and link it to the main apache article
[16:21] <sommer> soren: no problem with me... I'd think there'd be more bugs related to the issue.
[16:21] <soren> sommer: If you see any, could you send me the link at some point?
[16:21] <sommer> sure
[16:21] <soren> Thanks.
[16:21]  * jdstrand tentatively raises his hand, and asks soren if we can talk about bug #135624
[16:21] <soren> Ok, moving right along..
[16:21] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135624 in php5 "libapache2-mod-php5 should provide LAMP test page" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135624
[16:22] <soren> Um... Well, yes, I guess it's sort of related.
[16:22] <jdstrand> it is related in that its LAMP
[16:22] <jdstrand> it was something that was supposed to get into gutsy, but didn't
[16:22] <soren> jdstrand: Right. What has Debian said about it?
[16:22] <soren> Nothing, it seems. :(
[16:22] <jdstrand> nothing-- a debdiff has been languishing in the BTS
[16:23] <jdstrand> since it doesn't look like we will get it for free, maybe it should be added to the Roadmap
[16:23] <jdstrand> the debdiff is easy-- there is one in the LP bug too
[16:23] <soren> jdstrand: We've got both apache and php maintainers on staff. You should poke someone. :)
[16:24]  * jdstrand goes off poking...
[16:24] <jdstrand> soren: should it be added to the Roadmap?
[16:24] <soren> jdstrand: We could do that.
[16:24] <jdstrand> (not the poking-- the task)
[16:25] <soren> :) Sure.
[16:25] <soren> I'll do that when we're done here.
[16:25] <jdstrand> I think it'd be a good idea so it won't be forgotten
[16:25] <jdstrand> soren: thanks! :)
[16:25] <soren> Ok. Next item: "Improve mysql package upgrade"
[16:25] <soren> Who added this?
[16:25] <sommer> mathiaz I think
[16:25] <soren> Does anyone what the issue is?
[16:26] <sommer> wasn't there something during UDS about that?
[16:26] <soren> Insert "know" where appropriate.
[16:26] <soren> sommer: If there were, I forgot.
[16:27] <kraut> schedule @berlin
[16:27] <sommer> ya, I seem to remember some discussion about it... my not have been at UDS though
[16:27] <sommer> maybe there was a bug?
[16:27] <soren> Ok.. If noone knows what it's about, let's skip it for now.
[16:28] <soren> I can't spot it.
[16:28] <nijaba> soren: please do skip^
[16:28] <soren> Next item: "Improve php modules packages"
[16:28] <soren> The issue being that newly installed php modules should cause a restart of apache.
[16:29] <soren> ivoks was supposed to be working on ditching libapache2-mod-php5, so it becomes a php problem rather than an apache problem.
[16:30] <soren> ...and it that case, I don't think it'll be much of a point of discussion. The problem so far has been that php should unconditionally restart apache as it wasn't sure that apache was even using php.
[16:30] <soren> shouldn't unconditionally...
[16:31] <soren> Man, typing *is* hard.
[16:31] <soren> Hmm... The ditching libapache2-mod-php5 should be on the roadmap, too.
[16:31] <nijaba> I agreed that it should be suggested, not forces
[16:31] <soren> or "instead" rather.
[16:32] <soren> nijaba: What should?
[16:32] <nijaba> reloading of apache
[16:32] <soren> nijaba: Right. When we ditch mod-php5, it seizes to be an issue.
[16:33] <soren> Anything else about this?
[16:33] <soren> Ok, next item: "Integration of Dovecot SASL and Postfix"
[16:33] <soren> I've been discussing this with ivoks a bit, but I'm not sure how far along he's come.
[16:34] <nijaba> soren: didn't I saw diffs he proposed?
[16:34] <soren> nijaba: Yes, but they were rejected.
[16:34] <soren> nijaba: By me.
[16:35] <soren> :)
[16:35] <soren> I'll make a note of poking ivoks about it when he shows up again.
[16:35] <nijaba> soren: right...  so since he his not around today, let's skip
[16:36] <soren> The next few items, I'm not sure about.
[16:36] <soren> "Update Ubuntu ServerTeam wiki pages"
[16:36] <soren> Mathiaz is the assignee. I don't know the status, I'm afraid.
[16:36] <soren> (Holidays are annoying)
[16:36] <soren> "Write a How-To for Drupal on Ubuntu"
[16:36] <soren> JimTarvid around?
[16:37] <soren> Guess not.
[16:37] <sommer> soren: I haven't seen him since the 2nd or 3rd meeting
[16:37] <soren> Ah.
[16:37] <soren> Next: "Track pages on help.ubuntu.com that need to be updated"
[16:37] <soren> sommer: status?
[16:38] <sommer> haven't concentrated on that one too much lately
[16:38] <soren> sommer: Fair enough.
[16:38] <sommer> there's a list of Samba pages that need cleaned up
[16:38] <sommer> there's a lot of duplication, and I wasn't sure the best route to take
[16:39] <soren> Something you need/want to discuss here?
[16:39] <sommer> I'd hate to remove a page and get into some kind of flame war about it
[16:39] <sommer> probably not a big deal, but some of the pages are rather long
[16:40] <soren> I say to aim for quality rather than quantity.  A lot of crap is still crap.
[16:40] <sommer> totally agree, I'll try to focus some on that this week
[16:40] <nijaba> +1
[16:40] <soren> sommer: If you're completely rewriting, just move the old page to somewhere else (Blah/Old).
[16:41] <soren> sommer: Great!
[16:41] <sommer> soren: good idea will do.
[16:41] <soren> Next: "Update Server-Related Ubotu Factoids"
[16:41] <soren> Did these get poked into ubotu yet?
[16:41] <soren> ..some at least did.
[16:42] <sommer> I think nealmcb was testing them the other day
[16:42] <soren> Ok. Does anyone have any input about this in nealmcb's absence?
[16:43] <soren> Guess not.
[16:43] <soren> "Review ServerGuide for Hardy"
[16:43] <nijaba> sommer is doing a great job at it
[16:43] <soren> Wonderful!
[16:43] <soren> sommer: Do you want to talk about it?
[16:44] <soren> sommer: It's fine if not.
[16:44] <sommer> sure, I was wondering if anyone could test the Backups section
[16:44] <nijaba> I take it
[16:44] <sommer> I sent a message to the server ml, but haven't had much of a response so far
[16:44]  * sommer no longer has a tape drive
[16:45]  * soren neither :(
[16:45] <nijaba> Will ask elmo to take a look as well
[16:45] <sommer> nijaba: cool, I added an archive rotation section that I think covers your previous suggestions
[16:45] <sommer> nijaba: I sent him an email as well, because I wasn't sure if he was on the server ml
[16:45] <nijaba> not sure he is either
[16:46] <sommer> really no rush at this point
[16:46] <sommer> I'm also working on an eBox section, but wasn't sure of the status of it for Hardy?
[16:47] <nijaba> I think soren said that he will check with updstream in jan.
[16:47] <soren> sommer: I'm not really the one doing the work on it this time around. It's been "outsourced" to the eBox developers (upstream, I mean).
[16:47] <soren> I'll be keeping an eye on it, though.
[16:47] <sommer> that's cool, I started a wiki page on help.u.c
[16:48] <soren> sommer: eBox has a lot of documentation of its own, though.
[16:48] <soren> sommer: Good stuff, afair.
[16:48] <sommer> ya, I'm working through it trying to document what's done so fare in Gutsy
[16:48] <soren> Both developer, user, and installation guides.
[16:48] <nijaba> soren: anything on developing specific plugin?
[16:48] <nijaba> cool thankt
[16:48] <nijaba> cool thanks
[16:48] <soren> nijaba: :)
[16:49] <soren> sommer: I honestly wouldn't bother.
[16:49] <soren> sommer: The eBox stuff in gutsy is not worth mentioning. Quite the contrary, actually.
[16:49] <sommer> heh... also for my own learning... thinking about deploying it at work
[16:49] <sommer> with hardy that is
[16:50] <soren> sommer: If you do, don't bother with the Ubuntu packages :)
[16:50] <soren> sommer: Ah, ok.
[16:50] <nijaba> soren: you mean, for gutsy?
[16:50] <soren> nijaba: Yes.
[16:50] <soren> Ok, moving on...
[16:50] <soren> "Create Server GUI Wiki Page"
[16:51] <sommer> still on my todo list
[16:51] <soren> Ok.
[16:51] <sommer> but if anyone else wants to start thats cool... heh
[16:51] <soren> :)
[16:51] <soren> Next: "Integrate AppArmor into Ubuntu"
[16:51] <soren> That's done, surely?
[16:51] <soren> It's installed by default even in gutsy.. Why is it on the roadmap?
[16:52] <nijaba> odd...  I guess it meant additional profiles
[16:52] <sommer> I also added an AppArmor section to the Server Guide.
[16:52] <soren> Possibly. I'll ask mathiaz to update it.
[16:52] <soren> sommer: Cool!
[16:52] <soren> "Simplify storage management (RAID1 - LVM-on-RAID) during installation"
[16:52] <soren> ivoks is not here, so we'll skip.
[16:52] <jdstrand> soren: I believe it is, at least in part, getting more profiles
[16:52] <soren> jdstrand: Ok, cool.
[16:52] <jdstrand> (that was for apparmor)
[16:53] <soren> [TOPIC] ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?)
[16:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?)
[16:53] <soren> Anyone?
[16:53] <nijaba> ...
[16:53] <sommer> I think dendrobates was going to check up on it... from the last meeting
[16:53]  * nijaba grumbles about christmas
[16:54] <soren> Yeah, and he's not here, so we lose :)
[16:54] <soren> Moving right along..
[16:54] <soren> [TOPIC] JeOS tutorial (shall we redirect users from wiki to linuxtoday.com ?)
[16:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  JeOS tutorial (shall we redirect users from wiki to linuxtoday.com ?)
[16:54] <soren> nijaba: Go!
[16:54] <nijaba> The editor from linuxtoday.com do not want to publish our JeOS tutorial if it is published on our wiki.
[16:54] <nijaba> A possible compromise would be to mofify our wiki so that it points to the rest of the article on linuxtoday.com for the 90days it will be published there.
[16:54] <nijaba> We feel awkward about this and would love to have your opinion.
[16:54] <nijaba> On one hand it would increase the visibility of JeOS a bit
[16:54] <nijaba> On the other hand it would prevent us from editing (improve) it for a while.
[16:55] <nijaba> What do you think?
[16:55] <sommer> so the article is redirected for 90 days then replaced after their article is taken down?
[16:55] <nijaba> yes, that's the idea
[16:55] <sommer> doesn't seem too big a deal to me
[16:56] <nijaba> any other comments?
[16:56]  * sommer votes to do it... seems like it will help in marketing and stuff
[16:56] <jdstrand> I would think we would want to be able to edit it, as this would put us into March, and hardy releases in april.  we want testers and the docs need to be up to date
[16:56] <jdstrand> we could of course have updates point somewhere else, but it is a concern
[16:56] <jdstrand> generally
[16:57] <nijaba> jdstrand: what about putting it in bzr for the time?
[16:57]  * jdstrand thinks he didn't phrase any of that particularly well, but hopes his point got across anyway
[16:57] <soren> nijaba: That's an option.
[16:57] <jdstrand> nijaba: I have no problem with that, but prospective users/testers will need to be able to easily find it
[16:58] <sommer> how is Jeos going to be documented long term?
[16:58] <nijaba> improving that tuto?
[16:59] <sommer> is the documentation going to always be in the wiki or is something planned for the docbook docs?
[16:59] <jdstrand> nijaba: can the wiki page that points to the tutorial have an errata section (or something)?
[16:59] <jdstrand> nijaba: at least a pointer to it?
[16:59] <nijaba> sommer: sure, I don't think that would be a problem
[16:59] <soren> sommer: I don't think we talked about it, really.
[16:59] <soren> jdstrand: That sounds sensible.
[16:59] <sommer> gotcha, I'm not even sure where it would fit, but just wondering
[17:00] <jdstrand> nijaba: I'd also like to point out that I am all for getting the information out there-- just want to make sure our testing doesn't suffer
[17:00] <nijaba> so I'll propose the editor that we have a redirection + an errata section there.
[17:00] <jdstrand> (and testers ;)
[17:01] <soren> jdstrand: That was one of my concerns as well. Replacing the wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
[17:01] <soren> Is that what we're doing?
[17:01] <nijaba> soren: is the future of JeOS, ubuntu-vm-builder, or will we still maintain a separate iso?
[17:01] <nijaba> soren: yes
[17:01] <soren> Still a separate ISO, I would think
[17:02] <soren> [AGREED] Replace the Jeos tutorial wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
[17:02] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Replace the Jeos tutorial wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
[17:02] <jdstrand> soren: I think that sounds reasonable
[17:02] <soren> jdstrand: It has to be reasonable. I told MootBot we agreed on it.
[17:02] <nijaba> sommer: could you create the place holder in bzr?  I'll update the wiki in due time
[17:02] <jdstrand> soren: haha-- you just typed faster than I
[17:03]  * jdstrand is trying to type more carefully after all
[17:03] <sommer> nijaba: sure
[17:03] <soren> Ok, Last item:
[17:03] <soren> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[17:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[17:03] <nijaba> thanks...  my bzr skills are still not perfect and I don't even know if I have the right to do the add.
[17:03] <soren> I intend to at least pretend to not be working next week.
[17:04] <soren> nijaba: Everyone can create branches for every project on Launchpad.
[17:04] <nijaba> I'll be there until Wednesday....  then off to kenya for 12 days (until the 6th)
[17:04] <sommer> ^^ I think that may be a better approach
[17:04] <soren> I also think January 1st is going to be difficult.
[17:05] <sommer> nijaba: a seperate bzr branch for the article I mean
[17:05] <nijaba> sommer: right
[17:05] <nijaba> this I know how to do
[17:05] <soren> So next meeting on January 8th? That's quite a while, but then again, not much is going to happen in between.
[17:06] <nijaba> soren: I don't think that we have much choice...
[17:06] <sommer> soren: sounds good to me
[17:06] <soren> Cool.
[17:06] <jdstrand> soren: me too
[17:06] <soren> [AGREED] Next meeting January 8th, same time same channel.
[17:06] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting January 8th, same time same channel.
[17:06] <soren> Any other business?
[17:06] <soren> Going once...
[17:07] <soren> twice....
[17:07] <soren> thrice! Meeting adjourned
[17:07] <soren> #endmeeting
[17:07] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:07.
[17:07] <sommer> cool thanks all
[17:07] <nijaba> Have a good one, everyone...  Adam: party on...
[17:07] <sommer> heh... party!
[17:07] <jdstrand> thanks soren!
[20:01] <sabdfl> hi all
[20:01] <mdz> hi
[20:01]  * slangasek waves
[20:01] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: ping
[20:01] <mdz> I think Keybuk is without network until tomorrow
[20:02] <evand> hi
[20:02] <sabdfl> hey evand, slangasek
[20:02] <sabdfl> lamont: ping?
[20:03] <mjg59> Hi
[20:03] <lamont> sabdfl: ack
[20:03]  * keescook waves too
[20:04]  * somerville32 waves as well.
[20:04] <mdz> #startmeeting
[20:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:04. The chair is mdz.
[20:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:05] <mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application by Steve Langasek
[20:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application by Steve Langasek
[20:06] <slangasek> [20:06] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000615.html
[20:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000615.html
[20:06] <sabdfl> +1!
[20:06]  * mdz glares at sabdfl
[20:06] <slangasek> (oops, sorry, will try to lean on my mouse in a different channel)
[20:07] <mdz> slangasek: I thought you were providing a convenient visual separator for the meeting log
[20:07] <keescook> slangasek: it was a good topic separator.  ;)
[20:07] <sabdfl> i thought it was a reflection of the looooong pause
[20:07] <sabdfl> till i stated the obvious ;-)
[20:07] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveLangasek
[20:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveLangasek
[20:08]  * sabdfl will curb enthusiasm in favour of a modulated approach before others, too, state the obvious
[20:08] <mdz> sabdfl: given that mjg59 and I both know slangasek reasonably well from Debian, perhaps you should lead the discussion :-)
[20:09] <sabdfl> slangasek: what are your thoughts on keybuk's proposal to merge main and universe?
[20:10] <slangasek> sabdfl: I share the concerns Martin Pitt raised about the difficulty in keeping control of build-dependencies if there's no longer a separation at the apt level preventing wrong packages pulled in on the buildds
[20:11] <sabdfl> agreed, and there are also social consequences if we make build/install dependencies mean more than just exactly what they say
[20:11] <slangasek> and I think the concerns you just raised is also valid, though it wasn't one that had occurred to me
[20:11] <slangasek> s/concerns/concern/
[20:12] <sabdfl> could you comment further on the difference between -core-dev and -motu?
[20:12] <mdz> I want to find a way to make it work, but I'm a bit discouraged at all the holes we'd need to patch
[20:13] <sabdfl> there's definitely a nice element to having the people who care about a set of packages, say who gets to upload them
[20:14] <slangasek> hmm, I think the separation between -core-dev and -motu is a valuable one for a number of reasons.  Historically, Debian has only had one level of contributor, full DDs, which gave upload rights to everything; this had the effect of setting a very high bar for any contributions.  In comparison, MOTU is a useful way not of /excluding/ people from contributing to main, but of /including/ them as contributors to universe
[20:15] <mdz> interestingly, Debian has recently invented another level of contributor
[20:15] <sabdfl> what's that?
[20:15] <mdz> Debian Maintainer
[20:16] <mdz> [link] http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003
[20:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003
[20:16] <slangasek> so certainly, any plan that reorganizes the main/universe split should keep in mind the importance of privilege separation in allowing contributors to bootstrap their way into the community
[20:17] <mdz> slangasek: based on your experience in the process, do you have any thoughts about how we might improve either the process or the team structure itself?
[20:17] <sabdfl> neat
[20:17] <slangasek> mdz: by "process" you mean the process of becoming MOTU/core-dev?
[20:17] <mdz> slangasek: specifically, yes, and the general process of getting involved in the project
[20:18] <mdz> working at Canonical, you've had a leg up on most folks who go through it because you have daily contact with a lot of other folks involved in the project, but I'm always interested in feedback about what it's like and how we can make things easier for those interested in contributing
[20:19] <slangasek> right; getting involved came easily for me, not just because it's part of my job but also because IRC is a natural medium for me
[20:20] <slangasek> so dropping into #ubuntu-motu and finding my way around was not hard at all
[20:20] <slangasek> I don't know how it would be for someone trying to approach the project on an email-and-forums-only basis
[20:20] <mdz> I wonder if the pervasiveness of IRC in Ubuntu is limiting for those who are not used to it
[20:21] <slangasek> I'm not sure how solvable that problem is - email is always more formal and higher latency than IRC
[20:21] <sabdfl> are there many big decisions that are taken exclusively through irc?
[20:21] <slangasek> not that I've seen
[20:21] <mdz> there's no introductory document which says "lots happens on IRC, it's important to be there"
[20:21] <mdz> just "hey, there's an IRC server, check it out"
[20:22] <mdz> sabdfl: it's not so much that as that the day-to-day heartbeat happens there
[20:22] <mdz> how people know you're alive and can talk to you
[20:22] <sabdfl> the uds framework is still really good for folks working to a longer timescale
[20:23] <sabdfl> +1 from me, again :-)
[20:23] <mdz> but someone who turned up at UDS and then didn't follow IRC or -changes or such after that would be lost
[20:23] <mdz> mjg59: any questions for slangasek?
[20:23] <sabdfl> and for the record i'm really glad to see the debian maintainer proposal, looks like it will ease pressure on N-M and DAM
[20:23] <somerville32> mdz, I find that I have to stress to people who comes to me looking to get involved with Ubuntu the importance of being on IRC is to getting involved
[20:23] <slangasek> mdz: as far as process, another thing that was confusing to me initially was the "apply to MOTU" vs. "apply to core-dev directly" question, which seems to have been sorted out now since I first applied; that's good :)
[20:23] <mdz> slangasek: given your extensive Debian background, now that you've had a look from the other side, what do you think about our relationship with Debian?  the good, the bad, the weird?
[20:24] <mdz> somerville32: maybe it's something we should add to UbuntuDevelopment
[20:24] <mdz> somerville32: a quick, practical guide to getting in touch with other Ubuntu developers
[20:24] <mdz> there's a Communication paragraph, but it's more or less a list of resources
[20:25] <mjg59> slangasek: Do you feel the balance of MOTU (in terms of not putting people off by putting too many barriers in their way, but still wanting to keep the quality of universe high) is about right at the moment?
[20:25] <somerville32> mdz, The same applies for the mailing list sometimes. Oddly, some people just expect to be able to get involved without attaching themselves to our main communication mediums.
[20:26] <slangasek> mdz: in spite of the often high-profile complaints in Debian about Ubuntu, I've always felt that Ubuntu has led the way in terms of derivatives cooperating with Debian.  Ubuntu has taken heat because it's the visible target, not because it has a poor relationship with Debian
[20:27] <slangasek> mdz: there've been a few points in the past where on the Debian side I had concerns about Ubuntu's practices, and now that I've seen things from the other side these all seem to reduce to misunderstandings.  I think the best way to clear up such misunderstandings is with open communication
[20:28] <mdz> it's very difficult to have good cooperation between two projects which do their work in different places, but in some respects this is inherent in deriving a distribution
[20:29] <mdz> slangasek: what are the things we could help to communicate openly which weren't clear to you before you got involved with Ubuntu?
[20:29] <mdz> slangasek: (we can follow up on that thread offline if you prefer, we're limited in time here)
[20:29] <mdz> I would like to know though
[20:29] <mdz> in fact, we should definitely take it to email, as we have another applicant waiting
[20:30] <slangasek> mjg59: I haven't seen much that I thought was going wrong in MOTU to make me think the balance needs to move in either direction, so yes
[20:30] <slangasek> mdz: right, off-line it is
[20:30] <mdz> [action] slangasek to send some thoughts about things we need to communicate more openly with respect to Debian
[20:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to send some thoughts about things we need to communicate more openly with respect to Debian
[20:31] <mjg59> slangasek: That's reassuring
[20:31] <mdz> if there are no objections to it, I'd like to call for a vote now, so that we can move on
[20:31] <mjg59> Works for me
[20:31] <mdz> [vote] slangasek for ubuntu-core-dev
[20:31] <MootBot> Please vote on:  slangasek for ubuntu-core-dev.
[20:31] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:31] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:32] <sabdfl> +1
[20:32] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:32] <mdz> +1 based on first-hand experience from Debian and excellent feedback so far in Ubuntu
[20:32] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:33] <mjg59> +1
[20:33] <MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:33] <somerville32> +1
[20:33] <MootBot> +1 received from somerville32. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[20:33] <mdz> #endvote
[20:33] <mdz> oh yeah, that's broken
[20:34] <slangasek> :)
[20:34] <somerville32> Woot slangasek! :P
[20:34] <mdz> it's also broken, in this context, that votes are counted for anyone who happens to be in the channel ;-)
[20:34] <mdz> anyway, welcome slangasek!
[20:34] <evand> congratulations slangasek!
[20:34] <slangasek> thanks :)
[20:34] <keescook> \o/
[20:34] <sabdfl> welcome, slangasek
[20:34] <mdz> [topic] ubuntu-core-dev application by Evan Dandrea
[20:34] <MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
[20:34] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[20:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application by Evan Dandrea
[20:35] <mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000652.html
[20:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000652.html
[20:35] <mdz> [link] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanDandrea
[20:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanDandrea
[20:38] <mdz> evand: the installer is a real nexus, so you've been exposed to a lot of processes very quickly (bzr, Debian merges, derivative distributions, the live CD, etc.)
[20:38] <mdz> evand: what was that like?
[20:40] <evand> It's helped quite a bit.  I've been able to get a good feel for how to maintain packages in a variety of ways, how we interact with derivatives, how important it is to have all the core bits working in order to get solid development work done (the unionfs debacle), and much more.  It's also given me a preference for working with bzr rather than patches for merges.
[20:41] <mdz> evand: what were the most difficult bits to learn?  the obstacles?  what was poorly documented or overcomplicated?
[20:43] <evand> It's hard to look back and find overly difficult tasks as I've always had people like cjwatson to lean on, but it's sometimes difficult to run through a merge if you werent the one who had done it in the past, as the reasoning for the delta is often not detailed well enough in the changelog.
[20:44] <evand> The seeds are quite complicated, but that is somewhat unavoidable in their current form.
[20:44] <sabdfl> which external components (other than uniquity) do you think will be affected by encrypted filesystems?
[20:46] <evand> Anything that touches partitioning at all.  We need to make sure that the userspace tools we have can manage LVM + luks, and that our documentation is updated to reflect the options and consequences that are now available to the users.
[20:46] <evand> The latter being something that we really need to focus on for the installer as a whole.
[20:47] <mdz> evand: what about the process of specifying and implementing new features in Ubuntu (UDS, Launchpad blueprints etc.)?  do you think that process works well or not, and why?
[20:49] <evand> I think the workflow we have works extremely well, but I think we can do a better job of communicating to the community how it works simply and make sure that's placed somewhere very visible.  I tried to go out of my way to involve as many people as I could in the Gobuntu discussion by constantly posting updates on the UDS meeting to the ML, as I felt that the vast majority of them had no idea how the system worked.  I think there are some schedu
[20:50] <mdz> evand: sorry, you seem to have been cut off
[20:50] <evand> as I felt that the vast majority of them  had no idea how the system worked.  I think there are some scheduler bugs here as well as it's really tough to tell someone, "by the way, we're having a meeting on this in 10 minutes because  the scheduler was updated" because the topic wasn't on the core track.
[20:50] <evand> does that finish it off?
[20:50] <keescook> yup
[20:51] <evand> I'd also like to have the public VoIP discussions at UDS archived, for those who could not attend and so we have more than just our notes to work off of.  A lot happens in meetings, there are side conversations, and everything doesn't always get written down.  I know there has been some opposition to this, but I think it's quite essential.
[20:52] <mdz> mjg59: questions for evand?
[20:53] <mjg59> I think I'm ok
[20:55] <mdz> ok
[20:55] <mdz> #vote evand for ubuntu-core-dev
[20:55] <mdz> MootBot: :'-(
[20:56] <mdz> now I'll have to tabulate the votes by HAND!
[20:56] <sabdfl> aiiiee
[20:56] <mdz> [vote] evand for ubuntu-core-dev
[20:56] <MootBot> Please vote on:  evand for ubuntu-core-dev.
[20:56] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:56] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:56] <sabdfl> +1
[20:56] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:57] <mjg59> +1
[20:57] <MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:57] <mdz> +1, substantial direct contributions to fundamental Ubuntu bits and demonstrated understanding of and experience with our development processes
[20:57] <mdz> +1
[20:57] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:57] <mdz> #endvote
[20:57] <evand> hooray
[20:57] <keescook> \o/
[20:57] <mdz> evand: congratulations and welcome
[20:57] <sabdfl> welcome!
[20:58] <slangasek> evand: 'grats!
[20:58] <mdz> [topic] aob
[20:58] <MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
[20:58] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[20:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  aob
[20:58] <evand> thanks everyone!
[20:58] <mdz> anything further for the meeting?  I have 2 minutes before my next meeting
[20:58] <Mithrandir> mdz: lucky you :-)
[20:59] <Mithrandir> evand: congrats, well deserved.
[20:59] <evand> thanks Mithrandir !
[20:59] <mdz> ok, thanks all
[20:59] <mdz> #endmeeting
[20:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:59.
[20:59] <evand> thanks for your time, enjoy the rest of your evening
[21:01] <slangasek> cheers, folks