[00:00] I tend to have that effect since I spent the last 10 years of my life going to school for it :) [00:00] imbrandon: I'd go with just 3.97, that might needs a newer kdelibs [00:00] nixternal: how was your last exam? [00:00] ah figures :P [00:01] well, considering I coded in standard and Konqueror, FF, Opera, and Safari understand what standard is, the professor had a heart attack when it didn't work in IE...but all went well [00:01] Riddell: ok [00:02] note to javascript developers, when jslint says it is perfect, that means it won't work in IE :p [00:02] ;P [00:03] gmail still dont work in konqueror 3.97.1 [00:03] apparently IE 8 will pass the acid2 test [00:03] ya, I read that...about time [00:03] now FF just needs to pass it [00:04] its planned for gecko 1.9 i think [00:06] too bad Ubulette's FF 3 build don't show most of the icons on KDE for some reason [00:06] there is an interesting video at channel9.msdn.com w/ the ie team [00:07] cheguevara_: are you sure that was just in kde? [00:08] kwwii, am not sure, there was a couple of gnome people complaining, but I think they sorted it by installing the gnome support package [00:08] the reply i got form Ubulette is something like "I'll look to it in the future, but I don't really care that much since Ubuntu uses gnome..." [00:09] *into it [00:09] ... [00:09] cheguevara_: who ís that? [00:10] his cairo/fontconfig builds managed to fix a kde's ugly password dots somehow though [00:10] can i ask a kde4 question? [00:10] mhb, a guy from the ubuntu mozilla team [00:10] jjesse: never [00:10] jjesse: sure [00:10] so the "system tray" or whatever that runs in the bottom, how do i get it back? [00:10] do i have to build each widget or ? [00:10] cheguevara_: right, that was a bug in gutsy as well [00:11] kwwii, yeah but it surfaced again in hardy [00:11] after the new fontconfig got uploaded [00:11] sure, we haven't fixed it yet :p [00:11] it has something to do with the loading of a different theme irrc [00:11] ie, if you use the normal FF icons it works fine [00:12] or something like that, all I know is 1) it is a code problem and 2) it will be fixed for hardy [00:12] kwwii, are you talking about the password dots or the missing icons? [00:13] cheguevara_: the icons [00:13] anyone? [00:13] kwwii, right [00:13] sorry got a bit confused [00:13] :-) [00:13] jjesse: nobody... [00:13] kwwii, I still use it and just guess where my refresh button is lol [00:14] jjesse: I think the tray is here now, isn't there? [00:14] jjesse: if not, try: [00:14] mine disappeared some how, complete with kmenu [00:14] jjesse: a) removing all your build files, sometimes old plasmoids overlap and that is not nice. [00:14] jjesse: b) removing the .kde4 directory. [00:14] its not kmenu any more :p [00:14] kmenu is not in kde4 [00:14] yah [00:15] no more kmenu... [00:15] now everything is plasma... :D [00:15] mhb: i didn't build from scracth (used kubuntu packages)it all the sudden disappeared one restart [00:15] or kicker :P [00:15] jjesse: hmm, strange-o [00:15] ahaha he left [00:15] Riddell, so what about libgif then, you want me to do rebuilds of all the affected packages [00:15] hi rdieter, have you seen my qt port of system-config-printer-applet? http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/printer-setup.png [00:16] Riddell: neat. [00:17] wow, Riddell has the same printer as I [00:17] rdieter: the author of the gtk side doesn't seem terribly keen to let me work in his repository (or maybe he's just gone on christmas holiday) [00:17] removing the .kde4 dir did it thanks [00:17] rdieter: do you think the fedora-kde team would package and use it? [00:18] kwwii: that's the one mepis bought me [00:18] Riddell: I'd bet on the latter (his busy/on-holiday), sure, we'd be interested. [00:18] rdieter: cool, I'll let you know when it's in a state to be packaged [00:19] looking forward to it. [00:20] so, are we going to have a meeting on Saturday? [00:20] Riddell: only in ubuntu mine always says that it is low on ink - I thought it was a bug but perhaps the printer itself is defect [00:20] it might be a good time to get everyone's opinions together. [00:20] kwwii: ah, mine too [00:20] mhb: I hope so, although I can't guarantee to be there [00:21] well we'll just talk about current events, no need to decide. [00:21] so go ahead and enjoy the holidays [00:21] nixternal: could you add it to the fridge calendar? [00:22] date and time? [00:22] when's alpha 2 coming out then [00:22] still seems to be a lot of activity in archives [00:23] nixternal: Saturday 22nd at 11:00 UTC [00:23] cheguevara_: maybe tomorrow, there's still issues with the desktop ones [00:23] gotcha [00:23] ah [00:26] added to the fridge [00:27] I always get hungry when people refer to the fridge [00:27] Riddell, so just so I don't do useless work what do you want me to do with the libgif thing? Rebuild all the affected packages (not only kde ones) and post debdiffs to speed it up [00:27] ardchoille: lol [00:27] cheguevara_: yeah, everything in apt-cache rdepends libungif4g [00:28] Riddell: gotcha [00:29] Riddell: should i add the bindings from playground too ( like phpqt ) or like later make a kdebindings-extra-kde4 with those [00:30] mmm phpqt [00:30] imbrandon: they should be kept separate until they're in KDE proper [00:31] k [00:31] in that case i'll definately have something finished tonight i'd say i'm aobut 50% done [00:31] how do you start a KDE4 session in kubuntu? [00:32] hmmm [00:32] mhb: log out and select kde4 under sessions [00:32] whats control.in used for (vs just control) [00:33] cheguevara_: the .in means it will get processed [00:33] cheguevara_: something will process control.in into control. [00:33] so just like Makefile.in basically [00:35] yup [00:36] * Riddell snoozes [00:36] good night [00:37] night Riddell [00:59] hmm [00:59] how come pdebuild some times doesn't start building in a chroot [01:00] but just starts building same way as debuild === rdieter is now known as rdieter_afk [01:32] awesome! we just played Santa for a needy family...it was really neat [01:34] :D [01:38] :P [01:44] my lord, kde4libs is still building [01:44] it only took an hour on my TurionX2 [01:44] I think I have easily pushed that [01:44] lol [01:44] didn't take that long on my lappy actually [01:44] it only takes about 15 minutes on my desktop, not running debuild, but doing a svn build [01:45] yeah thats what i did yesterday [01:45] I am running 'debuild -nc' just to make sure it works out and to make sure no files were lost in the debian build process [01:45] svn looks a bit better then rc 2 [01:45] now emacs22 [01:45] thats taking long to build [01:46] oh ya [01:46] I remember when the guy who is maintaining started the buzz earlier this year on it, so I grabbed it and built for some of the Edgy users and it was insane [01:47] heh [01:47] ah its done [01:47] yay [01:47] thats all the packages in main built fine agains libgif [01:49] * cheguevara_ is thinking about the 30 something in universe [01:50] hey Hobbsee [01:51] heya! [01:52] how are you today> [01:52] *? [01:54] doing OK [01:54] * Hobbsee reads the kubuntu list [01:55] no LTS :P [01:55] yes, i know that [01:56] but seeing the backlash [01:56] what do you mean [01:57] from waht other kubuntu people said about it [01:58] ah gotcha [02:01] I think most of the devs like it.. [02:01] * Hobbsee spoke to keybuk about it (member of the TB), and it all sounded faily sane [02:01] and there are some really wrong perceptions out there [02:02] Hobbsee: what wrong perceptions? [02:03] nixternal: mainly about what canonical is demanding kubuntu do. Riddell has a free reign (almost fully) over what he wants to do, and it's otherwise community driven [02:03] there's really no point of putting a lot of work into kde 3 just to pretty much throw it away in hardy+1 [02:03] cheguevara_: that was my logic [02:03] yup [02:04] especially with the highly limited resources available [02:04] nixternal: the specs are supposed to be what the community (& riddell) has come up with that they want to acheive for the next release, and then get discussed at UDS [02:05] would be great if kde 4.1 is out before hardy [02:06] cheguevara_: it won't be [02:06] nosrednaekim, definitely? [02:07] cheguevara_: 99% sure [02:07] damn [02:07] actually yeah you are probably right, there's a lot of stuff thats been pushed to 4.1 [02:07] thats like 2 months [02:08] are both KDEs gonna fit on the cd? [02:08] no [02:10] so it's still gonna be a kde3 and kde4 cd [02:12] all in all this dev cycle is about to get very fun :P [02:13] heh [02:13] i don't know what they'll do w.r..t cds [02:14] yeah because if a user is gonna have a choice of the 2, the cds can't be separate [02:14] the cds will have to be separate. [02:14] yeah i am saying [02:14] but, you can install one from the other, etc [02:14] separate as in not related to each other [02:14] oh right, ye [02:15] s [02:15] i thought you were insisting that they both had to go on hte same cd [02:15] nah i know thats not possible [02:15] current kde 3 barely fits :P [02:16] thats because of Open office [02:17] good point [02:17] is the new koffice any good [02:20] mmmh [02:21] not really [02:21] figures... [02:40] gn8 [02:40] night [02:43] hmmm [02:43] universe and main might be merging eh [02:44] ish [02:44] something like that. [02:44] even Mark posted on the topic :P [02:45] What I need is more hands and eyes.. so I can do bug triage, packaging and support in #kubuntu [02:45] all at once [02:45] good luck :) [02:45] lol [02:45] lol [04:02] good night [04:02] * DaSkreech bows [04:06] DaSkreech: I was thinking about you earlier [04:06] I watched Cool Runnings :) [04:06] Heya nixternal. [04:06] Glad you're happy with the news. [04:06] wasabi ScottK [04:06] oh hell ya! [04:06] I was beginning to really worry [04:07] I think it's great for enthusiasts. I'm not sure it's so great for those of use trying to get work done. [04:07] My primary desktop is still dapper because I don't like to mess with it. [04:07] why not? you will still have a choice between KDE 3 and KDE 4 [04:07] nixternal: of course that would invoke images of me [04:07] hehe [04:08] Well I had the idea KDE3 was going to be well supported in Hardy. Now it appears not. [04:08] nixternal: news? [04:08] it will still be supported, but does it make sense to concentrate on a desktop environment that will be losing support though? [04:09] also kde 3 apps right now aren't being worked on as upstream efforts are kde 4 as well [04:09] nixternal: I'd say does it make sense to concentrate on a bleeding edge brand new thing that won't be ready for prime time until the next release? [04:09] I say yes...easier to work on that than use the limited manpower we have to support the unsupported [04:10] So now I have the choice between unsupported old crap and bleeding edge incomplete unstable new crap. [04:10] Not where I want to be. [04:11] ScottK: well if they are both crap.... [04:11] Does it make a difference? [04:11] Well our recent KDE3 releases haven't been. [04:12] Well use KDE3 then [04:12] Except if we aren't expending energy to integrate it with the new packages in Hardy, bitrot sets in. [04:13] Kubuntu has, IMO, done a really good job keeping KDE3 integrated and working well even though upstream's focus has been on KDE4 for quite a while. [04:14] I would have been nice to get another KDE3 LTS release so that people worried a lot about stability would have a place to wait for KDE4 to shape up in it's own good time. [04:14] My view is we could have made a good KDE3 release if we'd decided to. No way is KDE4 going to be ready for prime time no matter what we do. [04:15] Oh well. [04:15] how is Dapper any more stable than Feisty or Gutsy though? [04:15] It's decided. [04:16] I've used this box since just after Dapper was released. It's not that Dapper is more stable, it's that I have had to risk the box to upgrades. [04:16] just imagine if every distribution had the mindset that "kde4 will not be ready for prime time no matter what is done." it would never get a chance to evolve [04:16] I have dist-upgraded at the beginning of every dev cycle, so I really don't know what the stable release are really like, except for what people tell me [04:17] and thus far, everything I have been told about Kubuntu Gutsy hasn't been the greatest [04:17] Well it feels to me like Kubuntu is now for enthusiasts only. [04:17] I like Gutsy. I just put it on my new Dell laptop and it just totally worked. [04:17] I never had a problem with it either [04:19] well I dunno [04:19] I'd assume that if the Corporate clients asked for a KDE3 hardy they would get it [04:19] and they would probably get it by PPA [04:20] honestly I think that KDE dropping future support for KDE 3 isn't the hottest idea actually [04:20] I wonder if there can be something semi official worked out [04:20] we will have both KDE 3 and KDE 4 releases [04:20] but we won't be LTS [04:20] we are just dropping the tag [04:20] we should be lts [04:21] if LTS makes everyone warm and fuzzy, and customers want to start paying for support so we can maintain something that won't be maintained for the next 3 years, then I am down with it [04:21] if we had another paid full time develper we wouldn't be having this converstaion [04:21] come this time next year, bug fixes, updates and what not that are for KDE 3 will be 100% us, and we just don't have the manpower to take on such a task [04:21] one more full-time dev wouldn't even help it [04:22] we don't even have 1/10th what Ubuntu has [04:22] it would ease the discussion [04:22] paid and unpaid [04:22] if you look at all of the large Kubuntu rollouts, they aren't Dapper [04:22] they are Feisty or newer [04:22] Wait we are dropping KDE3? [04:22] the French Parliament nor the Canary Islands chose LTS [04:23] no we aren't dropping KDE 3 [04:23] we will have 2 choices for Hardy [04:23] Choice 1: KDE 3 [04:23] Choice 2: KDE 4 [04:25] will be an early adopter of kde4 really help with adding those extra devs? i would argue it doesn't until we get more full time paid support [04:26] well by us having a kde 4 release will hopefully bring in new interest, as it has for openSUSE, Fedora, Foresight, PC Linux OS, and more [04:28] if we don't adopt now, we will be the only distro that hasn't...and you thought we were behind now, we would be so far behind our goal would be unreachable pretty much [04:29] i guess i'm just frustrated after using ubuntu all week and seeing how much further ahead and polished it seems [04:29] my wife can use ubuntu and doesn't understand kubuntu [04:30] do we get more money slushed to us if more companies select Kubuntu as it's OS when it pays Canonical? [04:31] DaSkreech: being cynical i would argue that we wouldn't [04:31] and our KDE 3 has pretty much completed all of the "catchup" stuff that was proposed at UDS, but does it make sense to write code for something that won't be around, only to have to rewrite it for our future? [04:31] jjesse: agreed @ ubuntu [04:33] that is only because Ubuntu has 10 times what we have volunteer wise [04:33] not only volunteer wise but paid wise and it shows [04:34] * jjesse is a little frustrated today [04:34] hehe [04:34] paid wise we can't do nothing about, that is Canonical and they made it clear we are staying the way we are [04:35] didn't mark at one time say there was going to be another paid dev? [04:36] I believe so, but at OpenWeek Jucato busted him on it [04:36] oooh I was beeped :) [04:36] hehe [04:36] still trying to read the scrollback :) [04:36] Jucato: just talking about how you attacked sabdfl while he was on the stand :p [04:37] attacked? oh heavens no! I was merely trying to lure him into a trap :D [04:37] (glad Lure isn't around :P) [04:37] ha ha [04:37] and you were successfull [04:37] heh :) [04:38] glad you're enjoying Ubuntu as much as I'm rediscovering the joys of XP [04:38] * Jucato runs for his life [04:38] hahahaha [04:39] !vista [04:39] vista is the new operating system by the evil overlords from Redmond. For more information, see http://www.badvista.org [04:39] !visternal [04:39] Oh no! The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too! [04:40] oh man do I need money right now :) [04:40] ok heading to time bed, just finished wrapping wifes presents [04:40] hehe [04:40] Tell me about it I may have to rob my boss to reach the release party [04:40] ok I just misread that :) [04:40] my dog ate 2 of my presents this morning [04:40] he didn't just unwrap them, he ate them [04:40] Jucato: you too? [04:40] finished wrapping wifes... [04:41] plesants? [04:41] ok now to read scrollbacks :) [04:44] ok done :) [04:44] now I have to wash my brain w/ some mt.dew :P [04:46] code monkey like tab [04:53] * Jucato sighs [04:53] oops sighed in the wrong room... [04:53] * DaSkreech is too tired to link that back into a jucato wife wrapping joke [04:54] So let me get this sorted [04:54] Ubuntu is the only one shipping LTS in 8.04 ? [04:55] yes [04:57] NO [04:57] put it this way, as it currently stands, Kubuntu is the only one not shipping an LTS [04:57] unless Edubuntu and Xubuntu don't do LTS, then you would be correct I guess :) [04:58] I wasn't really considering Edubuntu... [04:58] edubuntu isn't even having a separate release [04:58] edubuntu has an addon cd to ubuntu now [04:58] ahhh [04:58] but given how Xubuntu packages have been/are being moved to universe, I don't think Xubuntu will have LTS :) [04:58] xubuntu doesn't do LTS, as it's not commercially supported anyway [04:58] * Jucato nods [04:59] unless it's community is doing security fixes for it [04:59] that myth was clarified in devel-discuss... [04:59] (in a few threads) [04:59] hm.. I'm not sure what commercial support for Kubuntu even really means anyway :P [05:00] well if you call asking for it, then it means nothing, as the people answering the phones in Canada don't know how to fix it [05:00] Jucato: that they can call up montreal, and get support [05:00] and that there are security fixes for X years, done by the paid security people [05:00] I helped a local guy, along with mjg59 on an issue that the tech support couldn't figure out in a month [05:00] * Jucato whistles... [05:00] oh, and we did it in less than 10 minutes [05:00] Hobbsee: does that mean that edubuntu is back down to one cd? [05:01] DaSkreech: it's an addon to ubuntu, so i think so, yes [05:01] Hobbsee: "done by the paid security people" <-- I doubt that applies to Kubuntu anyway :) [05:01] at least for the KDE packages... [05:02] Jucato: no, kees has done some of them [05:02] oh [05:02] kwwii_: you coming to the midwest? [05:02] nice then [05:02] he is probably in route to the states already, or still sleeping [05:02] oh well... spilt milk :) [05:02] hopefully he will be coming here to Chicago, so I can test out the whole "Germans can drink" theory :) [05:03] hahah :) [05:03] hey, it's for science [05:03] nixternal: btw, where did you get the announcement about KDE dropping support for KDE3? [05:04] well, they are discussing right now with mass support on closing everything KDE 3 in b.k.o [05:04] * Jucato has been out of the loop... [05:04] oh that? [05:04] ya, but now they are wondering when I guess..I will have to read all of the posts to be exact [05:04] * Jucato doesn't consider that as an indicator [05:05] :P [05:05] no, but consider that 3.5.8 could be the last, and if not, then 3.5.9 will definitely be the last [05:05] 3.5.9 I think... but afaik it will still be supported for some time, probably through other means (KDAB, PIM enterprise...) [05:06] but then again... I've been out of the loop for a week so I can't say :) [05:06] I am looking at all of the KDE 3.5 commits now to see what all has been done [05:06] thus far, it seems that scripty is tops :) [05:06] heheh [05:08] I just wished the TB just informed us a bit sooner about this... or even perhaps consulted us? (or they did, but I wasn't around?) [05:09] hm... tbh, I don't think the "LTS" tag really does much for us except for marketing. so it practically doesn't matter if 8.04 is LTS or not. except now we have an excuse to focus more on KDE4 :D [05:11] either way, nixternal will surely rock :) [05:12] ha ha [05:12] KDE 3 codebase will be left open for security and code-loss issues from what I am reading [05:16] the last kdebase in the kde3 branch, by a human being, was October [05:17] not that too long ago... but yeah, all hands are on kicking 4.0 out the door right now [05:17] * Jucato is imagining kde3 to get some attention a bit after that... just a bit :) [05:18] and that attention will of course make its way into Kubuntu [05:19] KDE 3 will probably have commits for a year after KDE4 starts shipping [05:20] I can still remember what aseigo said before, that some KDE deployments were still using KDE 2... and that was early this year... [05:21] Using and commiting are two things in my mind [05:22] true [05:25] Well it's probably just me, but my perception is we just went from Hardy being about Kubuntu with KDE3 catching up with Ubuntu and KDE4 getting in for testing and enthusiasts use to lets do KDE4 and not worry to much about KDE3. [05:26] For someone who planned to pretty much live in KDE3, that's a big shift, LTS or not. [05:32] Yeah it is [05:32] I was comfortable with where we were at except for the whole maintain KDE3 till time breaks down part [05:33] Personally, I think Hardy +1 would have been the time to shift to KDE4 by default and put a big push behind it. [05:34] but then we'd be behind everyone else... maybe... dunno :) [05:35] well at least nixternal's enthusiastic/excited/invigorated/motivated about this. that's all the reassurance I need :) [05:36] someone has to be [05:36] hrm. right then [05:36] wb Hobbsee :) [05:36] ty [05:45] Jucato: Maybe [05:45] The way I see it it's what we push [05:45] and if we are drumming up KDE4 even if unsupported we should have a nice run [05:46] Hobbsee: how is life in the brown? [05:47] it's OK [05:47] switched back to XAA, we'll see how much it crashes [06:25] gotta love them anti-us blog posts..way to go [06:25] whats XAA? [06:26] what's google? :p [06:26] all I know it is something about anti-aliasing [06:26] http://www.ase.gr/ [06:27] umm [06:27] ggl xaa [06:27] haha [06:27] looks greek to me :) [06:27] XFree86 Acceleration Architecture [06:28] so I was wrong about that I thought it was, or thought I knew it was [06:28] :-) [06:28] I knew I have seen it before, just don't remember where [06:28] oh well, off to bed I go [06:28] k'nite [06:29] night [06:37] DaSkreech: old version that -intel was using [06:38] ok [06:38] what did it do? Break I assume [06:41] whoa konqueror4 opens for a link now.. this should be interesting for testing [07:48] does anyone know where the konqueror devs hang out? [07:49] #kde4-devel should be able to tell you [07:50] will give there a try [08:43] good morning === LongPointyStick is now known as Hobbsee [09:03] hmm [09:03] it seems to me that the information of Kubuntu KDE4 adoption has not spread too far [09:17] on the technological side i agree on not doing a LTS. not sure if its wise politically. [09:18] when is kde 3.5 eol? [09:19] buz: well, it's not really actively developed anymore [09:19] not sure about that [09:19]