[11:24] <warp10> Hi all
[12:48] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 11 minutes
[13:00] <dholbach> Welcome everybody to another MOTU Q&A session - let's start with our usualy round of introductions
[13:00] <dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, working in the MOTU team for quite some time now and try to help to make it as enjoyable and straight-forward to become a MOTU as possible. :)
[13:00] <dholbach> who else do we have here?
[13:00]  * persia is Emmet Hikory.  A MOTU for a bit now.  Ask me about stacktraces and make :)
[13:01] <norsetto> persia: stacktraces and make?
[13:01] <persia> norsetto: Yep.  Those are the areas I'm most happy to answer questions about right now (I will also answer others :) )
[13:02] <dholbach> is that everybody we have here today? Just persia, norsetto and me? :)
[13:02] <effie_jayx> I am Efrain Valles ... the ever MOTU hopefull, just started learning the MOTU tools and the processes. I am working on merges :D
[13:02] <norsetto> we need a fourth to play a good card game
[13:03] <dholbach> hello effie_jayx :)
[13:03] <warp10> I'm here too... just a contributor indeed, but getting a lot of fun :)
[13:03] <dholbach> warp10: great! :)
[13:03] <dholbach> also effie_jayx is taking the time to write up sort of a MOTU Diary which is great
[13:03] <dholbach> effie_jayx: can you give us the link again?
[13:04] <mruiz> Hi all! My name is Miguel Ruiz (MOTU hopeful). I started to interact with MOTU Team during Gutsy Gibbon cycle
[13:04] <dholbach> hey mruiz, great to have you here
[13:04] <effie_jayx> dholbach, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EfrainValles/MOTUJourney
[13:04] <effie_jayx> I am a bit behind ... ... it looks like it'll be a very MOTU christmas for me to catch up
[13:04] <mruiz> thanks dholbach :-)
[13:05] <effie_jayx> I am definetelly learning though...
[13:05] <dholbach> thanks effie_jayx
[13:05] <harrisony> Im harrison, MOTU hopefull
[13:05] <dholbach> hey harrisony, nice to have you here
[13:05]  * kelmo_lap having a look at what MOTU's learn about (these sessions been pretty good in recent past)
[13:05] <dholbach> hey kelmo_lap
[13:05] <dholbach> so who brought some interesting questions today? :)
[13:06] <effie_jayx> Me
[13:06] <dholbach> effie_jayx: fire away :-)
[13:06]  * persia has a question
[13:06] <slytherin> I am Onkar, MOTU hopeful, I have been looking in some java related apps/libs recently. Have learnt quite a few things in last 2 weeks including CDBS & quilt. :-)
[13:06] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  I just did a merge. the change has been taken up by the debain mantainer... which is gret...
[13:06] <dholbach> slytherin: hey Onkar
[13:07] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  do I have to check the new package to see if it has new changes and then determine if it is indeed a sync?
[13:07] <Kmos> I'm also here.. MOTU hopeful =)
[13:07] <dholbach> slytherin: that's great - you should talk to doko - he's always happy to have people who are interested in the Java world
[13:07] <dholbach> hi Kmos
[13:07] <persia> effie_jayx: You don't need to, but it's a good idea.  If it's a sync, it's only worth pulling if there are also other changes in the Debian package that would be useful in Ubuntu.
[13:07] <dholbach> effie_jayx: exactly... as a sync can not be simply reverted, it's important to always check if all ubuntu changes made it to debian
[13:08] <dholbach> if they are, it's a good idea to file the sync (respecting freezes of course)
[13:08] <persia> Since Ubuntu already has your patch, if that is the only thing changed in Debian, it's better to wait for the next Debian upload.
[13:08] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  great.. the pacakge was just uploaded to the debian ftp's yesterday. will it be listed again in MoM or DaD?
[13:08] <dholbach> effie_jayx: after the next run, yes - until it's synced from debian
[13:09] <dholbach> or rather "in sync" with debian
[13:09] <dholbach> question answered?
[13:09] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  most definetelly
[13:09] <dholbach> persia: you had a question?
[13:09]  * persia points to http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ just in case MoM and DaD seem unavailable, and there is interest in looking at package status.
[13:09] <effie_jayx> thanks persia and dholbach
[13:09]  * dholbach hugs effie_jayx
[13:10] <persia> My questions is: Is there a standard list of intepreters that scripts should use?
[13:10] <dholbach> Do you mean a list of shebang lines that are count as 'accepted'?
[13:11] <persia> Or, to put it another way, when packaging a script, should I restrict to only certain interpreters, or should dependencies handle this (and yes, to shebang lines)
[13:11] <dholbach> Does everybody understand persia's question? If things are unclear, please ask
[13:11] <mruiz> dholbach, explain it please...
[13:11] <dholbach> persia: the only thing I can tell you is that the use of thing like       /usr/bin/env python      is discouraged
[13:12] <dholbach> (lacking a link to policy reference though)
[13:12] <persia> dholbach: That's what I found (and why I thought I'd ask the question).
[13:12] <harrisony> dholbach: i thought the use of /usr/bin/env was encouraged :S
[13:12] <warp10> dholbach: why is /usr/bin/env discouraged? Looks suprising to me
[13:13] <persia> harrisony: No, as the script should have been tested against either the system default python or a specific version of python.  Using env means that we can't guarantee behaviour on the user's system, which makes it harder to support.
[13:14] <dholbach> (people might have python3k in usr/local etc)
[13:14] <persia> warp10: It's a little different, as upstream tends to recommend that, but it comes from different viewpoints: upstream tests against trunk or whatever, and wants reports of what works and what doesn't.  Ubuntu wants a reliable system for a given codebase.
[13:14] <dholbach> but I'm still trying to find a policy reference or something
[13:14] <dholbach> mruiz: persia is talking about the shebang line in scripts, so something like       #!/usr/bin/python
[13:15] <mruiz> thanks dholbach
[13:15]  * persia notes that http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-python.html says to use #!/usr/bin/python or #!/usr/bin/pythonX.Y, but doesn't find a general reference.
[13:15] <warp10> persia: ah, I see... so what should I do, as contributor, when I see env used in a file coming from upstream? Modify original tarball? Ask the developer?
[13:16] <persia> warp10: I usually just add a small patch to the package.  For upstream, env is correct, and it's not good to modify tarballs.
[13:16] <warp10> persia: ack. Thank you
[13:17] <dholbach> I just asked for clarification in #ubuntu-devel
[13:17] <dholbach> let's see if we get another opinion on the matter
[13:17]  * persia defers to the next question in the meantime
[13:17] <dholbach> do we have any other questions?
[13:17] <mruiz> yes!
[13:18]  * warp10 has a question
[13:18]  * Kmos I've a question..
[13:18] <dholbach> persia: seb128 says that "If a maintainer would like to provide the user with the possibility to override the Debian Python interpreter, he may want to use /usr/bin/env python or /usr/bin/env pythonX.Y. However this is not advisable as it bypasses Debian's dependency checking and makes the package vulnerable to incomplete local installations of python." should be good enough
[13:19] <dholbach> mruiz: shoot
[13:19] <dholbach> warp10 next, then Kmos
[13:19] <warp10> Well, I have a proposal, rather then a question.
[13:19] <persia> dholbach: Yep.  That's python.  Answers the extra question :)
[13:19] <warp10> I was looking effie_jayx, MOTU web page. It is very interesting, and I like that he has "Lesson Notes" appended to it
[13:19] <mruiz> What will happen with the outstanding merges? We moved to another tasks due the current development phase...
[13:20] <warp10> Why don't we setup a page on the wiki, something like a Quick Reference to most commond task, command, tips, and so on
[13:20] <persia> mruiz: "Outstanding Merges" are very likely to be granted a DIF exception.  "Updated Merges" need review.
[13:20] <dholbach> mruiz: whatever is on the sponsoring queue will get sponsored - if you want to do a merge during the release cycle - that's fine (respecting freezes, etc), but it's not the 'main focus' right now
[13:20] <warp10> It could be useful for a contributor that doesn't remember something and don't wont to search the whole documentation
[13:20] <dholbach> warp10: that's something I try to make http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes
[13:21] <dholbach> warp10: if you have ideas for more recipes, let me know - I'm happy to add it to my todo list
[13:21]  * persia has tried to put the very most common on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing
[13:21] <dholbach> yeah
[13:21] <dholbach> that's a great one too
[13:21] <warp10> dholbach: I mean something even shorter, and managed by contributor, just like effie_jayx is doing
[13:22] <persia> warp10: I'd suggest Recipes is the right place.  Many of those have been written by Contributors.
[13:22] <dholbach> warp10: If contributors help to keep the wiki in shape, that's awesome and I encourage it where I can
[13:23] <dholbach> what I'd like to avoid is to have 78843456787654345678 individual wiki pages in different namespace that explain the same thing or similar things
[13:23] <dholbach> they get abandoned, out of date, etc etc
[13:23] <dholbach> I spent a lot of time reorganising the PackagingGuide, UbuntuDevelopment and MOTU namespaces for those reasons
[13:23] <effie_jayx> warp10,  I guess my journal falls into the "works for me" category ;). and I am trying to give it a noob focus to it...  and always trying to document what I learn... in case I get
[13:23] <effie_jayx> memory loss
[13:23]  * persia notes that we recently had that problem, which is why WIP is currently so prominent
[13:24] <warp10> effie_jayx: a very nice page indeed :)
[13:24] <Kmos> There is a Fakesync document on MOTU wiki? i can't find it..
[13:24] <dholbach> you could add requests or ideas to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Wishlist
[13:24] <dholbach> Kmos: can you add that to the page in the link I just pasted?
[13:24] <effie_jayx> warp10,  but I always make reference to de UbuntuDevelopment wiki entries... so It's not like it was not there ;)
[13:25] <Kmos> i'll do =)
[13:25] <Kmos> thanks
[13:25] <persia> Kmos: There isn't one.  The rule for fakesync is; only change the changelog and maintainer.  This only happens when the orig.tar.gz files differ.
[13:25] <dholbach> thanks Kmos
[13:25] <warp10> dholbach: oh, thanks, I'll surely use it if needed
[13:25] <dholbach> rock and roll
[13:25]  * slytherin has a question
[13:25] <dholbach> thanks for that
[13:25] <dholbach> slytherin: fire away
[13:25] <dholbach> 2008 will be the year of good documentation - I can feel it
[13:26] <persia> heh
[13:26]  * warp10 really hopes so
[13:26] <mruiz> Kmos, dholbach explained fakesyncs here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu-mentors/2007-June/000024.html
[13:27] <slytherin> I observed that docbook-xsl-saxon has BTBFS because it depends on library in multiverse (but it should not be). I logged a bug 'move to universe' and it is now resolved by pitti. Now how to trigger rebuild of the docbook-xsl-saxon package.
[13:27] <dholbach> slytherin: just ask pitti (or another build admin) in #ubuntu-devel to "give it back"
[13:28] <Kmos> mruiz: thanks
[13:28] <slytherin> Ok. Thanks.
[13:28]  * persia notes that that procedure only works when there are no binaries.
[13:28] <slytherin> persia: Which procedure?
[13:29] <persia> If there are binary packages built, and you want to transition the binary packages from multiverse to universe, you may need to upload a -build1 package, or a new "rebuild" -ubuntuN package.
[13:29] <Kmos> persia: thank you :) we change the maintainer fields in debian package and make a debdiff against unmodified one ?
[13:29] <persia> slytherin: Asking for a give-back.
[13:29] <persia> Kmos: Only if a sync can't work.  generally, a sync is better if we can.
[13:29] <seb128> dholbach: you should not need a give back when a build is depwait
[13:30] <Kmos> persia: right. thanks
[13:30] <slytherin> No. The package is in universe but had FTBFS since it depended on a multiverse lib
[13:30] <norsetto> kmos: in that particular case it may be worth waiting for debian to update the package
[13:30] <dholbach> ok, listen to seb128 :)
[13:30] <Kmos> norsetto :-)
[13:30] <geser> slytherin: docbook-xsl-saxon is in DEPWAIT
[13:30] <slytherin> geser: latest status? I haven't checked.
[13:30] <dholbach> so it's worth noting that DEPWAIT is different than FTBFS
[13:31] <dholbach> does that make sense to everybody? are there questions about slytherin's question?
[13:31] <mruiz> I was reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing, section "Preparing New Revisions". What is the difference between an "update to the Ubuntu repositories" and "new upstream version" ?
[13:32] <geser> slytherin: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/docbook-xsl-saxon/+builds
[13:32] <seb128> when a package is not available the build doesn't fail, it just waits for this one to be available
[13:32] <slytherin> geser: Just checked it. Thanks. :-)
[13:32] <persia> mruiz: A "New Upstream Version" is when the software developers make a new release (e.g. hello-2.3.2 -> hello 2.3.3).  A "New Revision" is when Debian or Ubuntu makes some packaging changes to fix some bugs.
[13:32] <slytherin> seb128: Thanks for explaination.
[13:32] <geser> slytherin: my guess is that it takess some more hours until the buildds sees libsaxon-java in universe
[13:32] <seb128> you are welcome
[13:33] <mruiz> persia, for me the new upstream version could be an update for Ubuntu as well...
[13:33] <persia> mruiz: Yes.  Every new upstream version is also a new revision, but not every new revision is a new upstream version.
[13:34] <mruiz> I asked it because you should obtain a debdiff or interdiff (it depends on the type)
[13:34] <persia> Essentially, the code is package_version-revision, where package is the name of the software, version is the official version for all distributions, and revision is the adjustments made by the distribution.
[13:35] <dholbach> persia: to your previous question:
 dholbach: using /usr/bin/env has a big drawback as opposed to just specifying the path (which IMHO you should)
 dholbach: using /usr/bin/env makes it impossible to specify command-line arguments or switches to python (or perl) for example
[13:35]  * persia notes that my question was about unusual interpreters, but otherwise subsides
[13:37] <dholbach> do we have any more questions?
[13:37] <slytherin> I have one
[13:37] <effie_jayx> a tong in cheek question....
[13:37] <effie_jayx> MoM or DaD?
[13:37] <dholbach> slytherin: fire away
[13:37] <persia> effie_jayx: Either, both, as you like (mdt is also good)
[13:37] <mruiz> effie_jayx, it's my fault :-)
[13:37] <slytherin> What is the procedure to own a package?
[13:37] <effie_jayx> mruiz,  yes...
[13:38] <dholbach> slytherin: in Ubuntu we don't own packages
[13:38] <persia> slytherin: I generally recommend taking it only on a second upload.
[13:38] <persia> If there is a very good reason why you specifically want to own a package, you can list yourself as the maintainer, but that isn't universally respected.
[13:38] <dholbach> I added a few notes about that here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/FAQ#head-6a3fb9097d750eed261d7102adfa43ea39839a1e
[13:39] <persia> Unless it's a very unusual case, it's best to either select a team, or just assign MOTU as the maintainer.
[13:39] <dholbach> we respect if people are known to have a special area of expertise
[13:39] <dholbach> but there is nothing like a big maintainer lock
[13:39]  * persia generally just subscribes to bugs for packages of interest, and uses the MOTU maintainer
[13:39] <slytherin> What I mean is. I want to handle all the uploads of a package. I am one of the upstream maintainers. So what is the procedure?
[13:39] <Hobbsee> persia: not respecting the maintainer field like that would have to be a @lartable offense, surely.
[13:40] <Hobbsee> but yes, it's rarely done
[13:40] <dholbach> Hobbsee: that's what I said about 'area of expertise'
[13:40] <Hobbsee> right, yes, i didn't read that far when i wrote my reply :)
[13:40] <dholbach> it's respected when you set yourself as the maintainer, but not to the point where "nobody but you is allowed to do uploads of that package"
[13:41] <persia> slytherin: Why do you want to handle all of them?  Is it not easier to handle the new upstreams, and also accept minor bugfixes from others?
[13:41] <persia> If you subscribe to all the bugs, you'll see most of the traffic for the package.
[13:41] <dholbach> slytherin: do the answers make sense to you?
[13:42] <slytherin> a little bit, not completely.
[13:42]  * persia notes that setting specific maintainers can make library transitions difficult, which is one of the reasons it's discouraged
[13:42] <dholbach> slytherin: what are your concerns or which reply does not make sense to you?
[13:43] <slytherin> What I wanted to know is that if I am one of the upstream authors is there anyway I can get upload permission specific to this package? The package is in universe.
[13:43] <slytherin> And I am not against anyone else uploading this package.
[13:43] <dholbach> slytherin: do you mean "upload permission" until you're part of the MOTU team?
[13:44] <persia> slytherin: Not at this time.  There is an ongoing discussion about how to address that sort of thing in the mailing lists.
[13:44] <slytherin> dholbach: No. I will try to use that upload permission as my entry point in MOTU.
[13:44] <slytherin> persia: Ok.
[13:44] <persia> Until that is resolved, the use of the sponsors queue is the best way to get your changes uploaded.
[13:45] <dholbach> when your sponsors are happy with you and you've proved that you do good work, you can apply for MOTU membership
[13:45] <slytherin> Ok.
[13:45] <dholbach> it might be harder to demonstrate that if you've just done uploads of one package
[13:45] <dholbach> but I know that you're not interested in only one package :-)
[13:46] <dholbach> do we have any other questions?
[13:47] <dholbach> anything unclear about processes? packaging problems?
[13:48] <mruiz> !
[13:48] <dholbach> mruiz: just ask :)
[13:50] <effie_jayx> I have a question... is ther a task timeline for motu tasks during a release cycle?
[13:51] <dholbach> effie_jayx: we try to indicate that in MOTU homepage
[13:51] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO always lists things that need to be done
[13:51] <dholbach> any other questions? any holiday stories you want to share?
[13:52] <mruiz> is there any plan to sponsor packages from mentors.debian.net ? Time ago I wanted to upgrade a package but the Debian maintainer did it before, but it packages are on mentors
[13:52] <persia> effie_jayx: At a rough level, it's indicated by the freezes in the release schedule (e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[13:52] <effie_jayx> ahhh cool
[13:52] <effie_jayx> it gives me and Idea of where to start
[13:52] <dholbach> mruiz: I think that our sponsors currently have enough to do just with REVU and the sponsoring queue - this might change in the future though
[13:52] <persia> mruiz: We don't generally sync from mentors, but we can.  It's a good source of orig.tar.gz, so we could sync later.
[13:53] <dholbach> hi bigon
[13:53] <persia> mruiz: If there are good changes, extracting them and creating a debdiff or interdiff is welcome
[13:53] <effie_jayx> recently I have been doing lots of ubuntu travelling and I got unhooked for two weeks... and I am not confident enouht for the dayly TODO list
[13:53] <bigon> dholbach: hi :)
[13:53] <dholbach> effie_jayx: I'm sure you'll do great
[13:53] <mruiz> in this case the package is done, just I want to avoid duplicated work
[13:54] <slytherin> One last question.
[13:54] <dholbach> slytherin: shoot
[13:54] <persia> mruiz: Understood.  Using the mentors package as a base, and just adjusting the version and maintainer is often sufficient for an important bugfix.  Otherwise, it's better to wait.
[13:54] <slytherin> Are we for/against taking extra efforts to make java apps compile with GCJ?
[13:55] <dholbach> slytherin: that's a question for doko - I can't comment on it
[13:55] <persia> slytherin: That's a more general question.  I'm in favor, but you should write a mailing list about it for general discussion.
[13:55] <dholbach> there's also #ubuntu-java
[13:55] <dholbach> there's a lot of talk about icedtea but I don't know if it's the answer to all questions
[13:56] <dholbach> (simply due to not knowing enough about the whole java business)
[13:56] <mruiz> is mentoring available for taks on MOTU/TODO ?
[13:57] <dholbach> mruiz: just ask questions on #ubuntu-motu or ubuntu-motu-mentors@ or for a review once you've come up with a debdiff
[13:57] <persia> mruiz: Not necessarily specifically, but if you want help with one, and ask on #ubuntu-motu, someone may well be willing to help (I certainly am for the WX transition)
[13:57] <dholbach> help will come to those that ask (or something like that)
[13:58] <slytherin> dholbach: There is one small problem. Most of the apps do not specify a target JVM in compile scripts. So compiling such packages with icedtea (target JVM 1.7) makes them unusable with all other JREs. So it is better to use common denominator, GCJ. :-)
[13:58] <dholbach> slytherin: ok... you see: you know much more about it than I do :)
[13:58] <slytherin> I will bug doko
[13:58] <dholbach> ok... thanks everybody for joining today's MOTU Q&A session - I won't be around in the next two weeks, so we'll meet again in 2008
[13:58] <effie_jayx> a big hand to dholbach ... you are really getting people in the MOTU boat brother... keep up the great inspirational work. hats off to you dholbach
[13:59] <dholbach> you all ROCK and I hope to see you as MOTUs in 2008 :-)
[13:59] <mruiz> thanks guys.. I wish you good holidays and a merry Christmas
[13:59]  * effie_jayx claps
[13:59] <norsetto> happy holidays everyone
[13:59]  * dholbach hugs effie_jayx - thanks a lot for the flowers
[13:59]  * dholbach hugs y'all :)
[13:59] <mruiz> :-)
[13:59] <effie_jayx> happy holidays
[13:59] <dholbach> norsetto: the same to you
[13:59]  * effie_jayx hugs mruiz
[14:00]  * dholbach dashes out of the door to buy some missing presents :-)
[14:00] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  enjoy your holiday break
[14:00]  * norsetto dashes out of the door to have lunch .....
[14:00]  * mruiz hugs everyone
[14:00] <dholbach> norsetto: good point
[14:00] <effie_jayx> thank you persia  and mruiz  for the great help with merges
[14:01] <mruiz> effie_jayx, no worries! :D
[14:01] <persia> effie_jayx: Thanks for helping keep the archive in shape.
[14:01] <effie_jayx> persia,  did I do that?
[14:02] <mruiz> persia, thanks for your guidance :-)
[14:02] <persia> effie_jayx: That's the end result of merges, syncs, bugfixes, etc. :)
[14:03] <effie_jayx> :D
[19:35] <chdorb> salut
[19:36] <chdorb> quit