[00:14] <harrisony> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=ttf-liberation someone mind checking that out :D
[00:19] <awen_> hi all
[00:20] <harrisony> hi awen_
[00:21] <azeem> harrisony: are you sure the licensing is fine for universe?
[00:21] <awen_> i'm on my first packaging attempt, and have a few questions in that respect, i'm looking at bug 177051
[00:21] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 177051 in ldapscripts "scripts dont accept gnu long options ( eg --help)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/177051
[00:23] <awen_> wouldn't it be best to keep this a debian package, and then have it uploaded to debian... (working on the unstable version right now)
[00:23] <harrisony> azeem: according to the lp bug no one really said, no dont package this
[00:24] <azeem> which lp bug?
[00:24] <awen_> azeem: bug 177051
[00:24] <harrisony> bug 113889
[00:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 177051 in ldapscripts "scripts dont accept gnu long options ( eg --help)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/177051
[00:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 113889 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Ubuntu needs the Liberation Fonts" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/113889
[00:25] <azeem> harrisony: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/113889/comments/2
[00:26] <harrisony> azeem: i saw that but if you look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/113889/comments/5
[00:26] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 113889 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Ubuntu needs the Liberation Fonts" [Wishlist,In progress]
[00:26] <harrisony> he makes a good point
[00:26] <azeem> harrisony: are the larabie fonts in universe?
[00:27] <harrisony> mutiverse im pretty sure
[00:27] <azeem> so what is ttf-liberation targetting?
[00:27] <harrisony> azeem: well i thought it could get into universe but
[00:28] <azeem> (I'm not saying they should get rejected, I'm just saying that maybe nobody with the proper legal authority in Ubuntu has looked at the license)
[00:28] <azeem> dholbach commented on the bug, but not on the licensing
[00:28] <harrisony> Yea
[00:28] <harrisony> should i set it as multiverse and change it if someone tells otherwise
[00:29] <azeem> well, having them in multiverse won't help much
[00:29] <azeem> I'd rather think they'd be a candidate for main if they were free
[00:30] <azeem> so maybe bring this up in #ubuntu-devel, or whereever licenses get evaluated in Ubuntu (I've no idea)
[00:33] <joejaxx> hey azeem :)
[00:33] <joejaxx> when did you join here? :D
[00:34] <azeem> dunno, in 2005?
[00:34] <joejaxx> :P
[00:35] <joejaxx> i just do not remember seeing your nick that is all :)
[00:36] <azeem> -- Log opened Tue Apr 05 01:33:39 2005
[00:36] <azeem> 01:33 -!- azeem [~mbanck@ppp-82-135-65-251.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu
[00:36] <joejaxx> :D
[00:46] <Ubulette> what is holding bug 176511 ?
[00:46] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 176511 in boost "libboost-regex-dev depends on libicu36-dev" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176511
[00:46] <xopher> Hey, has anyone tried including the 169.x nvidia driver into linux-restricted-modules? Im having problems building it with pbuilder.. http://paste.ubuntu.com/2897/
[00:49] <cheguevara_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/hardy-changes/2007-December/003549.html
[00:50] <cheguevara_> according to this the new nvidia drivers are included
[00:50] <xopher> ah, nice, thank you
[00:52] <DarkMageZ> xopher, the 169.x nvidia driver is included in hardy (8.04)
[00:57] <xopher> DarkMageZ, accoriding to this they're not? http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/misc/nvidia-glx-new
[01:16] <Nafallo|THM> Fujitsu: ?
[01:37] <imbrandon> TheMuso: busy ?
[01:39] <StevenK> imbrandon: So!
[01:39] <StevenK> imbrandon: How can I get apt-mirror to do my bidding? :-)
[01:40] <imbrandon> StevenK: more than the obvious or ...
[01:40] <TheMuso> imbrandon: not really
[01:41] <imbrandon> TheMuso: wanna walk me through the cdimage stuff here in a while ?
[01:41] <TheMuso> imbrandon: sure.
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> StevenK: By reading the comments?  :P  That's one of the few tools I actually understood when I tried it.
[01:41] <StevenK> imbrandon: I'd like i386 and amd64 to get put somewhere, and lpia put somewhere else
[01:41] <imbrandon> StevenK: just apt-get install it , and edit /etc/apt/mirror.list super simple
[01:42] <imbrandon> sure, the easy way to do that would be to grab it from two giffrnt hosts
[01:42] <imbrandon> diffrent*
[01:42] <StevenK> Doing so already
[01:42] <imbrandon> then bindmount/symlink
[01:42] <imbrandon> the results where you want
[01:42] <StevenK> No, that's harder, since the top level Release files may differ
[01:43] <imbrandon> huh ?
[01:43] <StevenK> imbrandon: I'm pulling i386 and amd64 from a mirror in .au
[01:43] <StevenK> imbrandon: lpia is getting pulled off ports.ubuntu.com directly
[01:44] <StevenK> imbrandon: Since there is mirror lag for the .au mirror, the Release files are different between the two, hence why I want them seperated
[01:44] <Nafallo|THM> this is so kewl :-)
[01:44] <imbrandon> ok it should place them in /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/ports.ubuntu.com and /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/somewhere.au
[01:44] <imbrandon> should be simple to seperate
[01:44] <Nafallo|THM> eeeXubuntu on 94% installed ;-)
[01:44] <StevenK> I see
[01:45] <imbrandon> it keeps the diffrent hosts seperate already
[01:45] <imbrandon> i do the same thing, i get i386 and amd64 from us.archive and ppc from ports
[01:45] <StevenK> I was expecting it to dump stuff directly into /
[01:46] <harrisony> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=ttf-liberation :) anyone willing to donate a few minutes on looking at that
[01:46] <StevenK> Well, mirror_path
[01:46] <imbrandon> nah, then i symlink /var/www/ubuntu to /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/ua.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
[01:46] <Fujitsu> Ukraine?
[01:46] <imbrandon> and symlink /var/www/ubuntu-ports to /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports
[01:47] <imbrandon> s/ua/us
[01:47] <StevenK> Mmmmm. This is going to require some thought.
[01:47]  * TheMuso notes that ppc is still available on main archive mirror
[01:47] <TheMuso> so au.archive, us.archive, etc.
[01:47] <imbrandon> TheMuso: for hardy ?
[01:47] <imbrandon> i dident see it
[01:47] <TheMuso> imbrandon: yup
[01:47] <StevenK> imbrandon: So can I seed apt-mirror somehow?
[01:48] <imbrandon> StevenK: how do you mean >?
[01:48] <imbrandon> like from a prior rsync ?
[01:48] <StevenK> imbrandon: I have the >70Gb of .debs I downloaded with debmirror -- it looks like apt-mirror uses a different directory structure, and I don't want to re-download that 70Gb again
[01:49] <imbrandon> ahhh umm not really sure, hrm
[01:49] <imbrandon> if you put it in apt-mirror format yea
[01:49] <imbrandon> but ...
[01:49] <imbrandon> hrm
[01:49] <imbrandon> is the pool the same ?
[01:49] <StevenK> It ought to be
[01:49] <TheMuso> StevenK: I know what you mean re downloading. It took me serveral nights to mirror i386, powerpc, and source.
[01:50] <imbrandon> really if you mv'd the ubuntu/ from debmirror to /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/somehost.au and ran apt-mirror
[01:51] <imbrandon> to see
[01:51] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Yeah, us.archive for example has i386, amd64, powerpc, and sparc.
[01:52] <imbrandon> TheMuso: nice, dident realize that
[01:52] <TheMuso> I'd doubt that will ever change, or at least, not while dapper is supported on ppc.
[01:52] <imbrandon> StevenK: note you will need to use the hardy apt-mirror or the one from sf.net for lpia to work
[01:52] <StevenK> imbrandon: Why?
[01:52] <imbrandon> its only a single perl script and works fine on gutsy
[01:53] <StevenK> imbrandon: The script understands deb-lpia from when I was reading the source last night
[01:53] <imbrandon> StevenK: because it dident know aobut deb-lpia before 0.4.5
[01:53] <imbrandon> hrm i might have patched it in then
[01:53] <imbrandon> and misrembering when i did it
[01:54] <imbrandon> i dident think i did it for gutsy though
[01:56] <imbrandon> i should probably request a -backport for it anyhow :)
[01:57] <imbrandon> i tell yall i finaly got added to the upstream team ? heh
[01:57] <imbrandon> i made the 0.4.5 release all by my lonesom heh
[01:57] <TheMuso> Cool.
[01:57] <TheMuso> Next stop, debian-installer/installer-arch/i18n/dist-upgrader-all/indices support. :)
[01:58] <imbrandon> yup i actualy have plem support for that in svn
[01:58] <imbrandon> but its broken kinda
[01:58] <imbrandon> nother day or two it will be ready for testing
[01:58] <imbrandon> just so i can roll cd images from it
[01:59] <imbrandon> heh
[01:59] <TheMuso> haha.
[01:59] <TheMuso> I'm happy to help with testing.
[01:59] <imbrandon> kk
[01:59]  * TheMuso currently uses debmirror + a script to fetch everyting else.
[01:59] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: about time!
[01:59] <TheMuso> Does it support rsync?
[01:59] <imbrandon> thats what i'm adding
[01:59] <Fujitsu> Does debmirror work on hardy at the moment, with the md5sum mismatches?
[01:59] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Yeah I saw that. Thanks for your support, same with you StevenK. Thank you both.
[02:00] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:00] <Hobbsee> you deserve it
[02:00] <StevenK> TheMuso: The bill is in the mai... Oh, what Hobbsee said.
[02:01] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:01] <TheMuso> lol
[02:01] <imbrandon> what did you get?
[02:01] <imbrandon> heh
[02:01] <bddebian> Heya gang
[02:01] <imbrandon> heya bddebian
[02:01] <bddebian> Hi imbrandon
[02:01] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I'm applying for core dev.
[02:02] <imbrandon> ahh rockin, bout time
[02:02] <imbrandon> TheMuso: mind sharing your script that grabs "everything" else , i'll probably use it as a defualt config
[02:03] <imbrandon> in the mirror.list
[02:03] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Ok, could likely do with some big cleanups, and its rather hacky, but works.
[02:03] <imbrandon> hehe ok
[02:03] <StevenK> I'm not sharing my debmirror script
[02:04] <imbrandon> lol
[02:04] <StevenK> I want to print it out in a 48 point size font so I can burn it
[02:04] <TheMuso> StevenK: Mine is kinda like that also.
[02:04] <imbrandon> StevenK: btw since your a perl guru patches welcome if you wanna make apt-mirror do soemthing else / better
[02:04] <imbrandon> :)
[02:05] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I DCCd it, or would you prefer another way?
[02:05] <imbrandon> hrm yea because i run irssi+screen on another host
[02:05] <imbrandon> email/pastebin ?
[02:05] <TheMuso> oh ok.
[02:05] <TheMuso> Let me upload somewhere then.
[02:05] <imbrandon> k
[02:05] <imbrandon> thanks
[02:06] <tonyyarusso> Would it be remotely feasible to make a super-stripped down version of the Live CD that could fit on those 210 MB "pocket" CDs?
[02:06] <Fujitsu> Chopping off OOo will save you quite a bit, but you'll need to find a lot more.
[02:06] <persia> tonyyarusso: Yes, if you are sufficiently ruthless about what to cut.  You might lose the GUI.
[02:06] <imbrandon> tonyyarusso: you could proably do it with debian-live or fluxbuntu stripped
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> hmm
[02:07]  * tonyyarusso happens to have a stack of them; wondering if it's worth it
[02:07] <TheMuso> imbrandon: http://www.themuso.id.au/ubuntu/mirror
[02:08]  * StevenK prepares to poke fun
[02:08] <imbrandon> TheMuso: killer , thanks
[02:08] <TheMuso> imbrandon: np
[02:08] <TheMuso> StevenK: Feel free. Its hacky, and likely could have things done better.
[02:09]  * Hobbsee heckles TheMuso, without having even looked
[02:09] <TheMuso> bbiaf
[02:10] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Is that to get around the various pockets not having debian-installer bits?
[02:12] <StevenK> I worked around that by running debmirror three different times
[02:13] <Fujitsu> StevenK: How do you combine them?
[02:13] <awen_> does anyone know how the automatic package-inclusion from debian works? ... if I forward a patch to debian and it gets included in unstable will it then automatically be included in hardy (it is a genuine debian package that we have in the repositories)
[02:13] <StevenK> Fujitsu: By using a scary amount of --ignore
[02:14] <Fujitsu> Hah.
[02:14] <imbrandon> awen_: depends on the point of the cycle it is on how long it will take, but eventualy yes
[02:15] <StevenK> My current script is a shade over 100 lines. The new script that uses apt-mirror and apt-mirror's config file are just under 50
[02:16] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:16] <TheMuso> back
[02:16] <imbrandon> TheMuso: that was fast :)
[02:16] <harrisony> awen_: a sync?
[02:16] <StevenK> Grumble. imbrandon is right.
[02:16] <imbrandon> ?
[02:17] <StevenK> imbrandon: Then backport a newer apt-mirror to dapper
[02:17] <StevenK> :-)
[02:17] <StevenK> steven@infected:~$ grep -c lpia /usr/bin/apt-mirror
[02:17] <awen_> harrisony: a sync, yes, thats what we call it... will it the happen on a regualr basis?
[02:17] <StevenK> 0
[02:17] <imbrandon> ahh , ok
[02:17] <TheMuso> StevenK: I shudder to think the amount of ignores you have.
[02:17] <TheMuso> StevenK: I just found it easier to sync to another dir, and copy over.
[02:17] <harrisony> awen_: no, not now, only if you make a request
[02:17] <StevenK> TheMuso: Like I said, a scary amount.
[02:17] <imbrandon> StevenK: you should be able to cp just the one perl script over from hardy untill then, no newer deps etc
[02:17] <TheMuso> Note, the dist-upgrader, and i18n stuff is not yet tested.
[02:18] <TheMuso> in my script.
[02:18] <imbrandon> but i'll file for a backport now
[02:18] <TheMuso> I only wrote that this morning.
[02:18] <StevenK> imbrandon: /usr/bin isn't mine to touch
[02:18] <StevenK> :-P
[02:18] <awen_> harrisony: how to do that?
[02:18] <imbrandon> StevenK: ahh
[02:18] <TheMuso> And, my script pulls in indices for bits that I don't mirror, but I cbf doing it better at this point.
[02:18] <imbrandon> can you install pkgs ?
[02:19] <StevenK> imbrandon: I mean that in a pedantic way, I have root
[02:19] <harrisony> awen_: let me just get a link
[02:19] <imbrandon> ahh ok
[02:19] <imbrandon> StevenK: give me one sec
[02:19] <StevenK> The machine is sitting 2 metres behind me, I better have root
[02:19] <imbrandon> heh
[02:19] <harrisony> awen_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess if it doesnt have changes (from the ubuntu version) but if it does you need a merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
[02:20] <harrisony> awen_: what package is it
[02:20]  * persia notes that sometimes a sync is acceptable when there are Ubuntu changes, but those changes are no longer either useful or required.
[02:20] <awen_> harrisony: ldapscripts
[02:23] <awen_> harrisony: and thank you... patch hasn't been accepted in debian yet, but just trying to be ahead of things now
[02:23] <harrisony> awen_: you know that it will get into hardy and if you want it in gutsy it will need a backport
[02:23] <TheMuso> imbrandon: SO what use is the my script?
[02:24] <harrisony> awen_: :) read up on syncs, that what you will need for ldapscripts
[02:24] <imbrandon> TheMuso: yup yup
[02:25] <TheMuso> imbrandon: But what did you want to know from it
[02:25] <imbrandon> ahh the list of what to grab
[02:25] <TheMuso> ah ok
[02:25] <awen_> harrisony: the patch is easily done to the current version in gutsy also... do you recommend making that patch for debian also and requesting a sync?
[02:25] <imbrandon> basicly your rsync list
[02:26] <TheMuso> Speaking of my script, does anybody have a more efficient way I could do the md5sum calculation? Perhaps making a diff, and comparing to previous md5sum file or some such, and only calculating newly added files?
[02:26] <TheMuso> I was going to take that kinda of approach, but thought there may be a better way.
[02:27] <harrisony> awen_: as long as the patch gets into debian, it can be synced into hardy and a backport (or maybe a SRU dont know) can be made for gutsy
[02:28] <persia> harrisony: awen_: If the patch is good, and works, it can also be submitted for direct inclusion to hardy in a new candidate, if someone wants to generate the new candidate revision.
[02:31] <imbrandon> StevenK: backport filed, when the archive team gets to it
[02:31] <imbrandon> not sure is Hobbsee has those uber powas
[02:32] <StevenK> I don't think so
[02:32] <imbrandon> StevenK: i have it building in my ppa for dapper if you want it tonight
[02:32] <StevenK> I can grab it from there, sounds good
[02:32] <imbrandon> k
[02:34] <awen_> persia: would that be a good idea for having it included in gutsy?
[02:34]  * Hobbsee doesn't
[02:35] <awen_> persia: first attempt at solving a bug, patching and getting it included, so sorry for all the "stupid" questions
[02:35] <persia> awen_: Before something is included in gutsy, it needs to be in hardy.  the basic process is that one gets it into hardy, evaluates it against the SRU guidelines, and either applies for an SRU or requests a backport to get it in a previous release.  If you wait for Debian review, and then a sync to get it into hardy, this takes longer: it depends on how important the change is.
[02:36] <persia> awen_: No question is stupid :)  Anyway, unless it's really breaking things, better to just fix in hardy.  You might also want to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing
[02:36] <nenolod> hi. has transmission been bumped to 0.9.6 yet? 0.9.5 has an ugly data corruption bug.
[02:37] <awen_> persia: not that important, just needed a starting point to get started packaging :-)
[02:38] <Hobbsee> nenolod: it apperas not
[02:38]  * Hobbsee wonders if debian reverted, or how we got that debian-named version
[02:38] <StevenK> Because it autosynced
[02:38] <Hobbsee> StevenK: and the lower debian versions...?
[02:39] <Hobbsee> oh wait, 0.96 is in debian now
[02:39] <Hobbsee> i can't read
[02:39]  * StevenK chuckles
[02:39] <Hobbsee> nenolod: want me to request a sync?
[02:39]  * Hobbsee should find her glasses
[02:39] <awen_> persia: but thank you... have been looking through a lot of the motu-stuff tonight already
[02:39] <nenolod> Hobbsee, yes please :D
[02:40] <Hobbsee> nenolod: done
[02:40] <nenolod> i wanted to use transmission, but i found that 0.9.5 was banned from the tracker i was going to use ;)
[02:40] <Hobbsee> nenolod: please close all the bugs from the old version which are not in the new
[02:40] <nenolod> Hobbsee, will do.
[02:40]  * TheMuso points Hobbsee in the direction of orca + espeak.
[02:40] <TheMuso> SInce she now uses GNOME.
[02:40] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: what about them?
[02:40] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: You should use them, if you don't want to find your glasses.
[02:41] <Hobbsee> ahhh
[02:41]  * persia notes that there is a transmission sync bug somewhere, that should be updated or used for the sync.
[02:41]  * Hobbsee just filed another, so...
[02:41] <TheMuso> Yay.
[02:41]  * TheMuso has finished building an i386 livefs from his local mirror.
[02:41] <Hobbsee> mine trumps it
[02:43] <zul> hey Hobbsee
[02:43]  * persia points jdong and ember at Hobbsee about transmission
[02:43] <Hobbsee> hiya zul!
[02:43]  * Hobbsee roasts them on her bbq, and eats them
[02:45] <awen_> night everyone
[02:45] <zul> can you get epeak to do swear words?
[02:45] <zul> er espeak...
[02:46] <zul> because that would be fun
[02:46] <TheMuso> Yes you can.
[02:46] <TheMuso> But I dare not, as there are little children in the room where I am currently.
[02:46] <TheMuso> But yes, you can make it say whatever you want.
[02:46] <zul> heh...
[02:47] <harrisony> orca is yelling out everything and its funny
[02:47] <StevenK> We used to play these games at the office...
[02:47] <StevenK> ssh into bart's machine, and feed stuff into his speaker process
[02:48] <TheMuso> StevenK: Lol.
[02:48] <harrisony> at school we get microsoft sam to talk to each other
[02:48] <Hobbsee> StevenK: haha, nice
[02:48] <zul> StevenK: when I was running one of the linux labs i would ssh into poeple's machines and eject their cd-roms and repeat ad-nauseaum
[02:48] <TheMuso> harrisony: I actually have a piece of speech synthesis hardware that I can make sing.
[02:49] <StevenK> It was amusing feeding spam subjects in over and over while he was reading e-mail
[02:49] <TheMuso> StevenK: lol
[02:50] <harrisony> TheMuso: :O!!!! HAHAH thats so neat
[02:50]  * jdong sees poke
[02:51] <jdong> Hobbsee: do I need to ask for transmission sync from debian?
[02:51] <Hobbsee> jdong: no.  already done it
[02:52] <jdong> Hobbsee: ah, ok, excellent. So I can go back to refreshing the grade report page obsessively?
[02:52] <bddebian> persia: Did you say you already knew what the wx2.4 issues with ctsim were?
[02:53] <Hobbsee> jdong: if you feel the ened to...
[02:53] <jdong> Hobbsee: how *else* would I know my exam scores the millisecond they come out? :D
[02:53] <TheMuso> I have two forms of it actually. I have one that can connect via the serial port, and the other is in the form of an ISA card.
[02:54] <Hobbsee> jdong: this is true
[02:55] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: *ISA*?
[02:55] <nenolod> transmission 0.96.dfsg-1 seems to build without any modification on ubuntu btw.
[02:59] <nenolod> hmm.
[02:59] <nenolod> transmission package is kind of crap
[02:59] <nenolod> it should depend on system libevent instead of included one.
[03:00]  * nenolod makes a debdiff.
[03:01] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Yes.
[03:04] <nenolod> yuck.
[03:04] <nenolod> transmission hardcodes things so that it uses internal libevent.
[03:04] <zul> right im going to bed
[03:06] <TheMuso> night zul
[03:07] <nenolod> wow. why doesn't libevent include a pkg-config control file?
[03:07] <nenolod> :/
[03:14] <Pici> Quick question.  Got a user in #ubuntu looking for a list of unmaintained packages like http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/orphaned
[03:15] <Pici> Do we have unmaintained packages? I was under the impression that we didnt, but I'm not really up to spec with my motu knowledge.
[03:15] <bddebian> We don't have the concept of unmaintained.  We have no maintainers :)
[03:15] <bddebian> MOTUS "maintain" the entire Universe repo
[03:15] <Pici> Okay, good answer... /me relays
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> Pici: We do have "undermaintained" packages, which are better referred to as "new package maintainer opportunities, with the hard part already done"
[03:19] <bddebian> Heh, good point
[03:22] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso: You mean 99% of universe?
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> Fujitsu: hehe, probably...
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> you'd know better than I would though
[03:26] <bddebian> Fujitsu: And what percentage of that is actually worth maintaining? ;-P
[03:27] <Fujitsu> bddebian: Probably a bit.
[03:30] <imbrandon> sudo apt-get install pr0n
[03:30] <imbrandon> :)
[03:32] <tazz> who has the responisebility of updating a perticular package? The entire MOTU team? I am on a look out to maintain any orphan package (If it exists, i have been told that things in ubuntu work a bit diffrently then in debain :-)
[03:32] <imbrandon> yes the entire team
[03:32] <superm1> yeah the entire team has the responsibility, unless a subteam lists themselves as maintainer
[03:32] <superm1> then you might want to look to them before doing uploads
[03:33] <superm1> eg ubuntu desktop team
[03:33] <superm1> motu media
[03:33] <superm1> etc
[03:35] <tazz> ok so if i want to get my package uploaded i need to contact the relevent maintainer and see if he will upload it for me right?
[03:36] <somerville32> no
[03:43] <persia> bddebian: Actually, no.  That one mystifies me.  ctsim compiles cleanly with wxwidgets in place of wxwindows, but segfaults when running.  Tracking down the segfault didn't lead to any sane resolution for me.
[03:44] <bddebian> Hmm
[03:45] <persia> tazz: If a package is unmodified from Debian, it's fair game for your maintenance.  If it is team maintained by MOTU, it's also safe.  If the maintainer is a different Ubuntu team, it's worth pinging them.
[03:46] <nixternal> anyone have a link so I can grab the multidistrotools scripts?
[03:46] <tazz> persia, thanks things seem a bit clearer now.
[03:47] <imbrandon> nixternal: Fujitsu has them on his people.uw.c site iirc
[03:47]  * nixternal looks - thanks
[03:50] <nixternal> imbrandon: are those the tools I need in order to run against experimental and have it create all of the "merge" stuff for me with the kde4 packages?
[03:50] <nixternal> instead of manually going through each and every package
[03:50] <persia> nixternal: What do you mean by "merge" stuff?  Perhaps you want the DaD code?
[03:50] <imbrandon> it wont do the "merge" stuff like DaD but it will give you the info you want
[03:51] <nixternal> hrmm, maybe running a local DaD here against experimental might do just that
[03:51]  * nixternal hits up the DaD code on LP
[03:52] <imbrandon> i'm about to give up on the kdebindings-kde4 pacakge for tonight, its a monster
[03:52] <nixternal> imbrandon: I was trying to manually do a debian > ubuntu merge on kde4libs..that is a freakin' monster
[03:52] <imbrandon> heh
[03:52] <nixternal> and of course debian doesn't install into the same directories as we currently do
[03:53] <TheMuso> imbrandon: If you want to go through the cdimage stuff, let me know as I have time to do so.
[03:53] <imbrandon> well this sucks because they unlike the kde3 package are all split out etc and use diffrent patch systems and packaging
[03:54] <coder2000> I am trying to compile a mono package with pbuilder for my personal use but the files aren't being included in the final package.
[03:54] <imbrandon> so some are debhelper some are cdbs etc
[03:54] <nixternal> imbrandon: groovy on ubuntuwire btw, if I hadn't said that before
[03:54] <persia> imbrandon: just think of it as a robust and vibrant ecosystem :)
[03:54] <coder2000> I have followed the guides on the wiki but nothing has any results
[03:54] <somerville32> nixternal, What do you mean by that?
[03:54] <nixternal> exactly what I said
[03:54] <nixternal> :p
[03:54] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: At least the entirety of KDE isn't in one source package.
[03:54] <imbrandon> TheMuso: cool, give me 2 seconds to ssh into my box i'm gonna use for it
[03:54] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: its in 3 :)
[03:54] <somerville32> nixternal, I don't understand. Do you mean revu?
[03:55] <nixternal> ubuntuwire.com
[03:55] <persia> coder2000: Likely cause is that the upstream build system install target doesn't put it in the right place.  You might need to pass DESTDIR, you might need to patch, and you might need to be agressive with dh_install.
[03:55] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Perhaps we use PM, so we don't flood the channel?
[03:55] <imbrandon> nixternal: thanks
[03:55] <imbrandon> TheMuso: sure
[03:55] <somerville32> :S
[03:56] <imbrandon> nixternal: btw i'm by far not the only person behind uw either :) see http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~uwsa :P
[03:57]  * persia notes the sponsors list on http://www.ubuntuwire.com/ as well.
[03:57] <imbrandon> yup yup
[03:57] <ScottK> imbrandon: Have you got a minute to work on a security fix for backports?
[03:57] <imbrandon> ScottK: security in backports ?
[03:57] <ScottK> imbrandon: Sure.
[03:58] <imbrandon> ummm its normaly not done that way but ok...
[03:58] <ScottK> imbrandon: The clamav is feisty-backports has vulnerabilities fixed in gutsy-security.
[03:58] <coder2000> The default rules file from debhelper uses make install and does pass a DESTDIR.  Should I be using dh_install instead for a mono library and leave the gac until the package is installed?
[03:58] <imbrandon> ahh
[03:58] <ScottK> imbrandon: I was wondering if you could see if you can build/install that version in Feisty.  My feisty pbuilder is really fubar tonight.
[03:59] <imbrandon> sure
[03:59] <imbrandon> lemme grab it
[03:59] <imbrandon> ScottK: you can always abuse the ppa to work as a pbuilder too :)
[04:00] <ScottK> If I'd ever used one before I might try that.
[04:00] <imbrandon> TheMuso: is it ok if i do this on a gutsy box or does it require hardy ?
[04:00] <ScottK> I don't have time to learn.  Trying to get packed to leave for KC in the AM.
[04:00] <persia> coder2000: You might want to check the Debian Mono team website, which likely has some hints on packaging (http://pkg-mono.alioth.debian.org/).
[04:01] <imbrandon> ScottK: no worries, i'll queue it up for here in a few minutes
[04:01] <imbrandon> ScottK: did i ever give you my # ?
[04:01] <ScottK> imbrandon: https://bugs.launchpad.net/feisty-backports/+bug/177537 is the bug.  Just mark the feisty-backports task in progress and subscribed the archive when your done.
[04:01] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 177537 in clamav "Remote Code Execution" [Undecided,Fix committed]
[04:01] <ScottK> imbrandon: Yes.  I've got it.
[04:01] <imbrandon> ScottK: yea i know, i'm on the backports team too :)
[04:02] <imbrandon> infact i think i was member #2 after jdong heh
[04:02] <imbrandon> :)
[04:02] <imbrandon> maybe not though
[04:02] <ScottK> imbrandon: Right.  Sorry for excess instructions.
[04:02] <imbrandon> :P
[04:02] <ScottK> imbrandon: Thanks for looking into it.  One less thing I have to mess with tonight.
[04:03] <imbrandon> np
[04:47] <imbrandon> StevenK: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/11013342/apt-mirror_0.4.5-1_all.deb
[04:47] <imbrandon> thats for dapper ^^
[04:48] <imbrandon> ( out of my ppa )
[04:57] <persia> Does anyone have a good reason why a make script shouldn't go in /usr/bin/ (assuming it does something useful when called)
[04:58] <Flannel> persia: Is it part of a package?
[04:58] <persia> Flannel: It could be :)
[04:58] <Flannel> persia: if its not, it should go in /usr/local/bin, if anywhere.
[04:58] <persia> The question is more as to whether /usr/bin/make is considered an acceptable intepreter by default.
[05:39] <tazz> hey Hobbsee
[05:39] <Hobbsee> heya
[06:25] <TheMuso> dc
[06:25] <TheMuso> ugh... meant for mutt
[06:42] <warp10> Hi all!
[06:44] <persia> hi warp10
[06:44] <warp10> persia: hi! :)
[06:44]  * Hobbsee sighs at MC mailing list
[06:45]  * Hobbsee thumps people who appear not to be able to use a brain
[06:45]  * persia needs to either work faster or mirror Hobbsee's screen locally.
[06:45] <Hobbsee> mind you.  the stupidity does come from someone who's requested a backport of a bunch of scripts already...
[06:45] <Hobbsee> persia: heh :)
[06:46] <persia> Hobbsee: For the sake of argument, let's assume that the MC has local physical access and torture implements in case of non-compliance.
[06:46] <Hobbsee> persia: yes, okay...
[06:47]  * Hobbsee cites the previous non-compliance, and says "torture him now!"
[06:48] <persia> Hobbsee: Doesn't matter.  Wasn't on probation then.  Now we have a procedure to complain, so complaining is good.  Before it was just random noise.
[06:48] <persia> Hobbsee: To put it another way, plan deviously for the next three weeks: either you will be happy or you will have an excuse.
[06:48] <Hobbsee> persia: they had the complaints for months.  they chose to sit on their hands.
[06:49] <Hobbsee> persia: he's been on probation for ages.  he's been being told off for ages
[06:49] <persia> Hobbsee: No official complaint to MC.  I stand by the procedure as much as I understand and agree with your frustration.
[06:49] <Hobbsee> now they're doing the same thing, but the people change
[06:49] <Hobbsee> persia: the first one was a private one to the CC, iirc
[06:49]  * Hobbsee checks
[06:49] <persia> Yep.  Wasn't that private, really :)
[06:50] <persia> (assuming you mean in July)
[06:50] <Hobbsee> wow, was it that far away?
[06:50]  * Hobbsee is aware that ScottK made a complaint ages ago
[06:51] <Hobbsee> like, an emailed complaint
[06:51] <Hobbsee> persia: i thought the previous complaint proceedure was "whinge to the CC"
[06:51] <persia> Hobbsee: Depends whose "private" complaint you consider first.  I'm happy that MC is now officially responsible, and may require things or institute penalties.  To me, that's worth waiting 6 months so that this isn't a special case.
[06:51] <Hobbsee> er, MC.  and if they don't do anything, the CC
[06:51] <ScottK> persia: Where was said procedure documented?
[06:52] <persia> whingeing was never known for being the right thing :)
[06:52] <Hobbsee> okay, so we've had a not-really-private complaint since july.  that's still *ages*
[06:52] <ScottK> So far MC sits on its hands and does nothing.
[06:52] <Hobbsee> persia: whinging with evidence is still acceptable, iirc.
[06:52] <persia> ScottK: MC Charter page: change about disputes.  November I think, but maybe late October.
[06:52] <ScottK> Then when a member of the community gets fed up, says "Let's do stuff over again and see if it comes out different".
[06:53] <ScottK> persia: My complaint wasn't about a dispute that's particular between myself and one other person.
[06:53] <persia> ScottK: I'd have preferred a prompter response as well, but setting time limits for MC responses is separate from this one frustrating case (and yes, I agree the case is very frustrating, and has caused many issues).
[06:53] <ScottK> It's about someone whe was fundamentally disruptive.
[06:53] <persia> ScottK: Right.  It wasn't about you.
[06:53] <ScottK> So we get a do nothing response from a do nothing MC.
[06:53]  * Hobbsee would have thought 6 months sitting on *any* community issue, still with nothing concrete, was unacceptable.
[06:54] <persia> ScottK: I'm not prepared to agree with you on that yet.  I have three weeks of patience left, based on recent traffic.
[06:54] <Hobbsee> and i don't view the same proceedure as before, but with different people, as a viable solution.
[06:54] <ScottK> BTW, the complaint came as late as it did based on requests from MC members
[06:54] <tsmithe> morning, motu
[06:54] <DarkMageZ> MC ?
[06:54] <RAOF> tsmithe: Greetings, fellow human!
[06:54] <persia> Hobbsee: No, it's not, really, but now that we have the procedures to do something, maybe we can do something.  Better than not doing anything.
[06:54] <ScottK> MOTU Council
[06:54] <Hobbsee> he's proven that he doesn't respect ubuntu people, so what's one group of them, vs another?
[06:54] <ScottK> Hello tsmithe
[06:55] <ScottK> And even if this period of observations "works" all that proves is he only listens under threat.
[06:55] <ScottK> What good is that.
[06:55] <tsmithe> hi ScottK, RAOF. is this a meeting? i thought the meeting was in 5 hours?
[06:55] <persia> ScottK: Understood.  I'm not happy about that either, and certainly don't include private requests to delay in the list of things I'll defend about MC.
[06:55] <ScottK> No, this is people whining.
[06:55] <Hobbsee> persia: procedures...meh.  all the procedures in teh world won't help, if people sit on thei rhands, and do nothing.  of course, teh fact that procedures seem to be along the lines of "give him x amount more time, then we'll see where to go from here" is not a valid procedure.
[06:55] <persia> tsmithe: Just us making noise here rather than flooding the MC ML.
[06:56] <ScottK> Personally, I'd say whatever legitimacy MC ever had has gone out the window.
[06:56] <Hobbsee> that's just buying time, and giving them the same problem in 3 weeks as they have now.
[06:56] <tsmithe> oh ok then, i'm not in a position to comment about MC, so i'll just shush :)
[06:56] <persia> Hobbsee: I agree.  I'd have preferred to see the brimstone at the end of the vertical tunnel as well, but I'm willing to give them the three weeks they requested.
[06:56] <Hobbsee> persia: i would be, if i actually had any confidence that they'd do anything different in 3 weeks time.
[06:56] <ScottK> persia: What do these 3 weeks do?
[06:56] <persia> ScottK: Why?  How is the ligitimacy of a body related to the quality of their actions?
[06:57] <Hobbsee> ScottK: the MC will monitor his actions.
[06:57] <Hobbsee> ScottK: perhaps to him, one of the groups of sponsorship is more important than the others
[06:57] <ScottK> Yeah, so he holds his breath for three weeks and all is fogivien.
[06:57] <ScottK> forgiven
[06:57] <persia> Hobbsee: Sure.  I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt.  It's not worth it to me to complain now when I have that much more force behind my complaint at that time.
[06:57] <ScottK> persia: I consider the MC to have at best a very limited legitimacy from a community perspective.
[06:58] <Hobbsee> persia: my other problem is that if he gets it all fine with the MC watching, he goes back to teh sponsorship queues, and does what he likes with them, as he's done his probation, and so therefore thinks he's tentitled to do what he likes.
[06:58] <persia> ScottK: No.  Three weeks of nothing doesn't mean everything is fine (or at least that would cause me to stop being an apologist).  Three weeks of helping in a constructive way is the only thing I believe he can do to meet the requirements.
[06:58] <ScottK> persia: They are effectively imposed by the TB.
[06:58] <persia> Hobbsee: That would be wrong.
[06:58] <Hobbsee> persia: sure, but what do you expect the MC will actually do, in that case, if we find that happens?
[06:58] <ScottK> They don't come from the community and clearly have no interest in helping when people are disruptive
[06:58] <Hobbsee> persia: sit on their hands for another while, put him under probation again, see if he learns from next time?
[06:59] <persia> ScottK: I'm also not entirely happy with the means by which MC is populated, but I don't see that the legitimacy of the body is inn any way related to their decisions and actions taken.
[06:59] <persia> Hobbsee: I don't think that will be the result.
[06:59] <Hobbsee> ScottK: geser is community-based.
[06:59] <Hobbsee> persia: you think the MC will actually act then?
[06:59] <Hobbsee> short of bouncing it up to the CC and back, for a copule of months?
[07:00] <ScottK> persia: If they act based on community input then that can overcome their lack of legitimacy.
[07:00] <persia> Hobbsee: I have no evidence.  If there is disruption in the future, and the MC does not act, I will no longer apologize for them.
[07:00] <ScottK> I don't feel they are doing that.
[07:00] <Hobbsee> persia: i have no confidence that kmos has actually learned about caring about other people.  i think he actually views probation as something that gets in his way, and something that he has to pout about, and use an excuse for not even trying to work with other people.
[07:00] <Hobbsee> persia: consequently, i feel that i have to object to the MC's plan, as they don't deal with that issue
[07:00] <ScottK> Multiple MOTUs come to them and say there is a problem and their response is let's try stuff again that already hasn't worked.
[07:00] <Hobbsee> (if you want proof of that, see the debian-games ML)
[07:01] <persia> Hobbsee: I agree with you, and I expect MC's actions at the end of probation to reflect that.
[07:01] <ScottK> It really amounts to nothing.
[07:01] <Hobbsee> persia: i really hope so.  i wasn't kidding about people rethinking their MOTU status.
[07:01] <ScottK> persia: There's no procedure that required them to try stuff over.
[07:01] <persia> ScottK: I defend this procedure because when it is I that several MOTUs complain about, I want three weeks to demonstrate my contributions and lack of disruption.
[07:01] <persia> Hobbsee: I understand.
[07:02] <Hobbsee> persia: you say the above would be wrong.  i agree with you.  but i've seen enough of kmos that i suspect that's *exactly* how he's going to act. :(
[07:02] <ScottK> persia: I understand that, but I believe that past disruption despite attempts from the community to mitigate it are sufficient in themselves.
[07:02] <persia> ScottK: Were this not the very first case, I'd agree with you.
[07:02] <ScottK> My conclusion is that the MC will do nothing and so it's up to us to police the community through peer pressure.
[07:03] <Hobbsee> persia: the proceedure of yours is fine.  i think what ScottK is saying is that he shouldn't get this proceedure, based on how he's already had it a few times over, but by different people.
[07:03] <ScottK> persia: That's exactly why it's sufficient.  There's no precend to the contrary.
[07:04] <Hobbsee> persia: and i'm somewhat in that category too
[07:04] <persia> ScottK: Right, but I don't want execution as precedent, given the weight currently behind dropping Kmos.
[07:04] <ScottK> persia: What weight>
[07:04] <ScottK> '?
[07:04] <persia> Hobbsee: Not my procedure.  I'm just defending MC's role in defining the procedures and penalties.
[07:04] <Hobbsee> ScottK: him being the first person to get kicked out of ubuntu
[07:04] <Hobbsee> persia: granted.
[07:04] <ScottK> From the MC perspective the past is irrelevant as long as he behaves.
[07:04] <persia> ScottK: MC + explicit CC delegation on this issue.
[07:04] <Hobbsee> persia: wrong words, sorry :)
[07:05] <Hobbsee> persia: s/proceedure of yours/proceedure of the MC's/g
[07:05] <persia> ScottK: I haven't seen that in any explicit statement.  Maybe some MC member feels that, but that's irrelevant to the issue.
[07:05] <ScottK> Personally, I think excecution for such bad behavior would be an excellent precedent.
[07:05] <ScottK> persia: That's the end result of the proposal.
[07:05] <Hobbsee> persia: of course, i have one other problem with this
[07:05] <ScottK> Behave now and all it forgiven.  That's what's on offer.
[07:06]  * persia has an interruption and will return shortly
[07:06] <Hobbsee> persia: if, by some major act of thunder, kmos does behave under them, and for a sufficient time after...he still won't be deserving of MOTUship, as he's already proved that he does not care about non-MC members, and their possible workloads.
[07:07] <Hobbsee> in which case, the point is somewhat moot anyway - he'll never be able to get to MOTU
[07:07] <somerville32> Never?
[07:07] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I wouldn't count on that.
[07:07] <ScottK> The current policy seems pretty open.
[07:07] <Hobbsee> somerville32: not if he can't prove he can actually work well with existing MOTU's, etc
[07:08] <Hobbsee> in matters of transitions, merges, etc...actual ubuntu stuff, rather than social stuff
[07:08] <ScottK> Hobbsee: That's clearly not required by at least some MC members
[07:08] <Hobbsee> ScottK: erm...who's been allowed that fails that requirement?
[07:08] <Hobbsee> ScottK: apart from some of the canonical people?
[07:08] <persia> ScottK: Right.  I'd agree with you for everything except that I'm a policy wonk.  Please let three weeks pass before you declaim MC, as it's better that we have an MC than not, and MC can't have authority we don't grant it.
[07:09] <Hobbsee> is it better to have an MC if they just sit on their hands, though...
[07:09] <persia> Hobbsee: Sure.  This isn't about him being MOTU, this is about him being forcibly ejected from the community.
[07:09]  * Hobbsee wonders
[07:09] <persia> It's not better to have them sit on their hands, but they haven't done that.
[07:09] <Hobbsee> persia: was meaning "where coudl he go from here, if he did reform?"
[07:09] <persia> They have given a schedule and proposals for a solution since being given official protest.
[07:10] <ScottK> Well he hasn't actually made it yet, but dholbach seemed to me to argue that working with the community wasn't actually required.
[07:10]  * Fujitsu also got that impression.
[07:10] <persia> They have stated they will report in mid-January as to whether the offender will be removed from the project.  Details of removal were not specified.
[07:10] <Hobbsee> ScottK: is this being on irc, or?
[07:10] <ScottK> persia: What have they proposed that hasn't been tried already.
[07:10] <ScottK> Hobbsee: No, submitting bogus debdiffs without asking for help when clearly over their head.
[07:11] <persia> ScottK: Nothing.  It's about it being MC.  it won't work, and everyone (even MC) knows that, but that doesn't matter: it's the correct precedent to set.
[07:11] <Hobbsee> ScottK: oh *classy
[07:11] <ScottK> persia: I disagree.  It says that all the efforts the community made before don't count.
[07:12] <somerville32> Would it not be preferable for Kmos to smarten up and become a positive contributor though?
[07:12] <ScottK> persia: I particularly disagree in this case because dholbach (an MC member) asked Kmos to submit stuff via him, he agreed and didnt' do it.
[07:12] <ScottK> somq
[07:12] <ScottK> Argh.
[07:12] <persia> ScottK: Unfortunately that is true.  I don't know how to balance reports from several prominent members with MC authority.  For now, I defend MC authority, but blame the current disconnect on changing procedures (from none to this)
[07:12] <ScottK> somerville32: Not possible.
[07:13] <persia> somerville32: Yes, but exceedingly unlikely at this point.
[07:13] <somerville32> I hope they give him some kind of "time line" as to when he might try again.
[07:13] <somerville32> I would strongly oppose a blanket "get out and don't ever come back"
[07:13] <ScottK> persia: The MC, with no precedent, could have proceeded however they chose.
[07:14] <ScottK> They chose to discount the work already done by the community to get this guy to do productive work.
[07:14] <ScottK> somerville32: Even my proposal had a path back.
[07:14] <ScottK> No one has proposed "Don't ever come back".
[07:14]  * somerville32 nods.
[07:15] <somerville32> ScottK, Why do you have a "us vs. them" attitude? Isn't the MC Motu too?
[07:15] <ScottK> I don't view them as a legitimate governing body for the MOTU community.  I don't think they deserve it.
[07:15] <ScottK> So far they sit on their hands and do nothing.
[07:16] <somerville32> Well, when is the next electoral cycle?
[07:16] <ScottK> There is no electoral cycle.
[07:16] <ScottK> That's part of the problem.
[07:16] <Fujitsu> ScottK: There is, but isn't it only to approve them?
[07:16] <ScottK> There is a TB selection followed by a beauty contest
[07:17] <ScottK> That's not an election.
[07:17] <Hobbsee> somerville32: it's "those who actually can do something about the problem, but don't tend to" vs "those who have to deal with his crap normally"
[07:17] <ScottK> And so I've quit dealing with it.
[07:17] <Hobbsee> although, i think geser does tend to normally deal with a bit of the sponsors queue
[07:18] <persia> ScottK: Yes, they could have proceeded in any manner.  Yes, your proposal had a way back.  Yes, it doesn't show the previous attempts (of which I have not seen documentation).  On the other hand, when it comes to my trial, I want two weeks.
[07:18] <ScottK> I'll do the bits I care about and the rest can hang at this point.
[07:18] <ScottK> persia: I didn't expect to have to provide all the documentation on the initial input.
[07:19] <ScottK> dholbach asked kmos to check with him before filing any bugs or doing anything and it lasted about a week.
[07:19] <persia> ScottK: Understood.  On the other hand, I'm willing to wait three weeks without documentation.  It's three weeks, and other people will be specifically responsible for dealing with any issues during that time, so I shouldn't feel pain.
[07:20] <persia> If I feel any pain, I'll complain (and hope others would as well), towards taking appropriate action.
[07:20]  * somerville32 nods.
[07:20] <ScottK> Well you're entitled to your perspective.  I'll just avoid the pain by not caring about packages I don't use.
[07:20] <persia> ScottK: Yes.  That was true.  I don't know if there was further communication indicating he was allowed to stop checking.
[07:21] <ScottK> To my understanding there was not.
[07:21] <persia> ScottK: Right.  I just encourage you not to claim MC will do nothing until the three weeks have passed.  At that point, I'll agree with you that the current process is unworkable, or the issue will go away.
[07:21] <ScottK> So far they've done nothing.
[07:22] <ScottK> I'll believe in action when I see it.
[07:22] <persia> They've instituted a procedure, and begun a probation period.
[07:22] <ScottK> Which amount to not doing anything so far, just a promise of maybe doing something in the future.
[07:22] <persia> I don't mind you being skeptical, but actively claiming that the current process affects MC's legitimacy (which already has other issues) doesn't move us towards a less painful state.
[07:23] <ScottK> A less painful state would have been them doing something.
[07:23]  * persia appreciates the "so far" in the previous statement
[07:24] <persia> ScottK: We have a loop.  It will be resolved in three weeks.
[07:24] <ScottK> We'll see.
[07:24] <persia> Also, if the probation is workable, and the two volunteers are able to effectively limit actions, nobody else should have any pain.
[07:24] <ScottK> In either case, it's clear that there's no point in me trying to work with problematic contributors in the future.
[07:24] <persia> Why not?
[07:24] <somerville32> ScottK, Please don't say that :(
[07:25] <Hobbsee> persia: excluding idiocy on irc, mailing lists, etc.
[07:25] <ScottK> Because only when the MC experiences a problem does it count.
[07:25] <somerville32> ScottK, Most will prosper with your assistance :)
[07:25] <Hobbsee> ScottK: +1
[07:25] <Hobbsee> as actual evidence, anyawy
[07:26] <persia> Right.  Let me state my opinion of how to handle things in the future: mild issues: correction via IRC or mail.  refusal to learn or major issues: escalation to MC.  No waiting several months.
[07:26] <persia> I think there's a lot of value in the efforts for mild issues, and expect MC to handle major issues, and expect all members of MOTU to be sure that MC does so.
[07:26] <Hobbsee> welcome to the blood bath, daniel!
[07:27] <dholbach> good morning
[07:27] <persia> dholbach: Good morning.
[07:27] <Hobbsee> persia: assuming the MC actually does something about it, that proceedure works.
[07:27] <ScottK> somerville32: This is the natural consequence of the current situation
[07:27] <persia> Hobbsee: Right.  So let's give it three weeks to find out what MC does, rather than saying it won't work before they do it.  I'm not saying it will work, just that it's worth giving MC the chance so that we can rely on them in the future.
[07:28] <ScottK> Right, so the clear situation is not to try and solve problems ourselves, but to complain to the MC and let them handle it.
[07:28] <persia> ScottK: I'd suggest some granularity.  For little things, it likely doesn't need MC.  For big things, or persistent uncorrected little things, yes.
[07:28] <ScottK> persia: But the whole "let's try again and see if it's different" approach inherently discounts all the work that was done before.
[07:29] <dholbach> ScottK: the MOTU team has solved problems themselves before - the MC this time steps in due to very unusual circumstances
[07:29] <persia> ScottK: As I said before, that is unfortunately true.
[07:29] <Hobbsee> ScottK: dholbach's probably better to comment on that one
[07:29] <ScottK> dholbach: I don't think you're solving anything now.
[07:29] <Hobbsee> anyway
[07:29] <ScottK> You're just discounting all that happened before.
[07:29]  * Hobbsee takes a few drinks, and hands ScottK and persia some
[07:29] <dholbach> ScottK: that's not what's happening
[07:29] <persia> dholbach: That's not actually useful: either MC deals with it because it's MC's job, or MC deals with it immediately when MOTU can't.  You can't have a good procedure and expect MOTU to self-address issues.
[07:29] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I've already had plenty or I wouldn't be so honest.
[07:30] <dholbach> and it's not fair to say "and he'll get another chance and another one and another one" when the proposal clearly says "that he'll be asked to not work on Ubuntu any more"
[07:30] <ScottK> dholbach: You already asked him once to check with you before he did anything.  How is what's proposed new?
[07:30] <persia> ScottK: Penalties + official MC stance
[07:30] <ScottK> He's not asked anything he's not already been asked.
[07:30] <Hobbsee> dholbach: iirc, that was said months ago tool
[07:31] <dholbach> persia: What I wanted to say is that "the MOTU team can't deal with problems" is a bit over the top
[07:31] <Hobbsee> dholbach: wasn't that the end result of the discussions in boston too?  that was 2 months ago.
[07:31] <ScottK> persia: Exactly, so now all problems get pitched to the MC so they can be official.
[07:31] <persia> ScottK: Right, but if he doesn't do it this time, he will be removed from the project.
[07:31] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i could have sworn that's what jcastro said to me.
[07:31] <Hobbsee> and ScottK
[07:31] <Hobbsee> that his account would be restricted to a plain jane LP account, and that he coudl not contribute to ubuntu.
[07:31] <ScottK> Yes and in the future, I don't try to solve problems.  I'll immediately complain to the MC.
[07:31] <persia> ScottK: It's about problem size.  For little things and first offenses I think it's better to correct generally.  For larger issues or repeated offenses with correction, I agree.
[07:32] <Hobbsee> but...this doesn't look like that.  now, either these 2 people have told me wrong (which would be possible), or you've gone and backtracked.
[07:32] <ScottK> persia: Expect my threshold to be low now.
[07:32] <Hobbsee> if that's true, then how should i have *any* confidence that you will not backtrack again now?
[07:32] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I said it a lot of times before: I would have wished it would have been dealt with before and I hope it doesn't happen like that again
[07:32] <Hobbsee> or, after the 3 weeks?
[07:32] <ScottK> dholbach: I will say that I think this outcome is contrary to what I was told at UDS.
[07:32] <persia> ScottK: I'd hope it would be at the point where someone annoyed you by doing things wrong again after you'd explained before.
[07:32] <ScottK> persia: What would be the point?
[07:33] <ScottK> Whatever I say doesn't amount to anything.  MC will just do it over, so I'll let them.
[07:33] <persia> ScottK: Not flooding MC.  Helping people who made a mistake because they were learning, rather than because they didn't care or couldn't learn.
[07:33] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i'm fairly sure you said that in boston, or something close to it.  how have things chnaged between then adn now?
[07:33] <dholbach> I'll reply on the email thread
[07:33] <Hobbsee> ...you're sidestepping.
[07:33] <ScottK> Thanks for the open discussion.
[07:34] <persia> dholbach: You'd do better to reply here and recap in email.  Let's not have a flamewar about this.
[07:34] <ScottK> dholbach: You are the one that told me to give him more time before complaining.
[07:34] <ScottK> dholbach: You and jono told me at UDS it'd be handled.
[07:34] <ScottK> dholbach: This is not handling it.
[07:35] <somerville32> :(
[07:35] <dholbach> ScottK: you asked me to ask for feedback from a number of people - it's what the MC did - you're complaining now because this is not the outcome that you wanted
[07:35] <ScottK> dholbach: Yes.  I am.
[07:35] <persia> dholbach: No.  He's complaining about the delay.
[07:35] <ScottK> I'm also complaining that no decision is made.
[07:35] <Hobbsee> dholbach: so...you got the feedback...then you read it, seemingly ignore it, and ask for more feedback direct to you, from kmos.
[07:35] <persia> ScottK: That would be wrong, if you are.  Previously you had a good argument with the "no decision is made" point.
[07:35] <Hobbsee> if you were going to do that, what was the point in asking for it in the first place?
[07:36] <dholbach> persia: I'm not happy about the delay either and I will work to not let something like this happen again
[07:36] <ScottK> persia: I'm not happy about the delay or the result.
[07:36] <dholbach> Hobbsee: not Kmos feedback, but from people who sponsored him, like Jordan or Cesare
[07:36] <ScottK> Personally, I think there've been plenty of chance.
[07:36] <Hobbsee> dholbach: yes, so, you got that.  then you ask him to give you direct feedback, in you sponsoring all his uploads.
[07:37] <ScottK> I didn't see any public feedback that would indicate more chances are required.
[07:37] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I'm not sure I understand
[07:37] <ScottK> But he already tried that once.
[07:37] <ScottK> dholbach: You already asked him once before all this came up to work through you on stuf and he didn't do it.
[07:37] <ScottK> dholbach: So now you ask him to do the exact same thing again.
[07:37] <ScottK> To what end?
[07:39] <dholbach> ScottK: ok, you proposed to suspend his LP account which to the best of my knowledge does not work like that and that he will have another chance if he can prove himself (outside of all active development)
[07:39] <ScottK> dholbach: Jono told me it could be worked.
[07:39] <dholbach> I propose that he'll be under a public supervision now and has the chance to redeem himself or as Jordan added to the proposal will be asked to not work on Ubuntu any longer
[07:40] <ScottK> dholbach: So the lesson here is that LP account cannot be suspened no matter what?
[07:40] <dholbach> we can have the discussion with Jono and LP folks if you like
[07:40] <ScottK> If "It doesn't work like that", what will happen if this trial period doesn't go well?
[07:41] <ScottK> More asking nicely?
[07:41] <ScottK> dholbach: It's no longer my prolbme.
[07:41]  * persia expects it not to be nice
[07:41] <dholbach> persia: no, it won't be nice
[07:41] <ScottK> problme/problem
[07:41] <Hobbsee> dholbach: you asked for sponsor feedback.  you read that, then asked for anything else kmos wanted uploaded to go thru you or geser.ie, ignoring the previous lot of feedback, and getting feedback from yourself.
[07:42] <Hobbsee> dholbach: kmos has been under public supervision for months now.  it's called u-u-s
[07:42] <ScottK> Hobbsee: But we're just peons.  Our experience doesn't count.
[07:42] <Hobbsee> ScottK: apparently not.
[07:43] <persia> It shouldn't have taken this long to escalate to MC, and it shouldn't have taken this long to move to resolution.  U-U-S opinions count (see sponsors feedback thread), and go to "final chance" mode.
[07:43] <dholbach> ScottK: that's not true - I said that I wished it had been dealt with before and that I don't want anything like this happening again
[07:43]  * Hobbsee wonders when dholbach first started saying that.
[07:43] <persia> dholbach: You mean that it shouldn't take so long next time?
[07:44] <dholbach> persia: yeah, that's what I meant
[07:44] <ScottK> dholbach: That's odd considering you were the one asking me to give him more chances.
[07:44] <ScottK> dholbach: If you don't want this to happen again, not actually deciding what happened to date was a problem isn't the best way to go about it.
[07:45] <dholbach> ScottK: I think applying the process (we have now) earlier next time is going to help
[07:46] <ScottK> dholbach: What process?  MC does nothing until someone gets sufficiently fed up to complain publically?
[07:46] <ScottK> That seems to be the process.
[07:46] <persia> ScottK: That's the first step in the process.
[07:46] <ScottK> OK.  We'll definitely get past that bit more quickly next time.
[07:47] <ScottK> I need to get to bed.
[07:47] <persia> Right.  Then it gets simpler.  Next time should be less painful.  This is bad, and needs to be solved properly in three weeks.
[07:47] <dholbach> the process it to put somebody under that surveillance earlier next time
[07:47] <ScottK> dholbach: So my mistake was respecting your requests to wait.
[07:47] <ScottK> Got it.
[07:47] <persia> ScottK: Except the process wasn't there then, but yes.
[07:47] <ScottK> Good night all.
[07:47] <persia> Good night ScottK
[07:48] <somerville32> Night ScottK
[07:48]  * Hobbsee ponders blogging about all this, or something
[07:50] <persia> Hobbsee: Not worth it.  It's just a pointless argument about how badly we managed our procedure for ejection over the past six months.  Wait three weeks, and you can blog in celebration of our new ejection procedure.
[07:50] <Hobbsee> persia: yes.  something like that.  or raise loud complaints about how it's been 3 weeks, and nothing has been done
[07:50] <Hobbsee> but yes.
[07:50] <Hobbsee> which date is the 3 weeks?
[07:50] <somerville32> Negativity sucks :(
[07:51] <persia> Hobbsee: Geser said "mid-January".  I'd expect that to mean hearing a report somewhere in the 15th to 17th range, depending on TB or CC meetings.  By MOTU Meeting on the 18th, all should be sorted.
[07:52] <Hobbsee> persia: i want a solid date.
[07:52] <Hobbsee> persia: so that it can't slide, say to teh end of jan, or mid feb, or...
[07:52] <persia> Hobbsee: I'm not a person who can give one.  Ask MC.
[07:52] <Hobbsee> "oh, he's changing.  just give him a bit longer"..hey look, another 6 months, same problem.
[07:52] <Hobbsee> dholbach: can i have a date please?
[07:55] <dholbach> Hobbsee: we'll wait for the end of the vote, then the public surveillance will start - I guess there might have been a better date than the christmas holidays, etc - but we'll aim for a report on what happened in two weeks
[07:56] <dholbach> maybe make it monday, so I'll be back in berlin again and work on the summary
[07:56] <dholbach> I'll talk to Cesare about it and announce it
[07:56]  * persia is happy with three weeks over the public holidays rather than further delay for two weeks during other points of the year.
[07:57] <dholbach> persia: that makes sense
[07:57] <persia> dholbach: Not my proposal.  Belongs to geser.
[07:58] <dholbach> I haven't read all new email yet
[08:13] <Nergar> hello
[08:13] <Nergar> i have a serious question, why isn't webmin in the repositories!!!
[08:14] <Hobbsee> StevenK: *poke*
[08:14] <dholbach> Nergar: I think it was removed from debian quite a while ago
[08:14] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Yes?
[08:14] <Hobbsee> StevenK: answer ^
[08:14] <Fujitsu> It was killed off a long time ago, fortunately.
[08:14] <StevenK> Why isn't webmin in the repositories?
[08:14] <Nergar> well, it needs packing
[08:15] <Fujitsu> No, it doesn't.
[08:15] <Nergar> why not?
[08:15] <StevenK> It's out, and it isn't coming back
[08:15]  * Fujitsu is glad of that.
[08:16] <dholbach> where is the "this package was removed from debian due to xyz" list?
[08:17] <persia> dholbach: "ftp-master removals.txt" are the keywords you seek.
[08:17] <Amaranth> Wasn't it removed because it was a security nightmare?
[08:17] <persia> Amaranth: That matches my memory.
[08:17] <StevenK> Amaranth: Right.
[08:17] <dholbach> persia: gracias
[08:18] <StevenK> It's a security nightmare, the code is horrible, and it *runs as root*
[08:18] <Nergar> i dont get it
[08:18] <Nergar> it looks amazing
[08:18] <Nergar> oh
[08:18] <Amaranth> Holy crap, that's sad.
[08:19] <Fujitsu> Webapps as root, yay.
[08:20] <DarkMageZ> webmin was a very popular target back in the old days =D
[08:20] <Nergar> well something like webmin could really push ubuntu server, but then again theres a reason why we don't use Microsoft shit
[08:22]  * dholbach takes the plunge and leaves into the cold (-5°C) to walk the dog
[08:27]  * RAOF remembers words like "Landscape" being bandied anound for remote admin stuff
[08:29] <persia> Isn't there a dummy package for landscape around?
[08:30] <soren> landscape-client
[08:30] <soren> Yes.
[08:30] <dholbach> hey soren
[08:30] <soren> Hi, dholbach!
[09:22] <cyberix> Lintian tells me "E: malbolge_0.1-0ubuntu1_source.changes: md5sum-mismatch-in-changes-file malbolge_0.1-0ubuntu1.dsc"
[09:23] <cyberix> I'm using dh_md5sums so I have no idea how the md5sum can be wrong.
[09:23] <cyberix> Any guesses?
[09:26] <minghua> cyberix: It has nothing to do with dh_md5sums.
[09:27] <minghua> cyberix: Run md5sum on malbolge_0.1-0ubuntu1.dsc and compare the result with the one in malbolge_0.1-0ubuntu1_source.changes.
[09:29] <cyberix> K
[09:29] <cyberix> How can these be wrong?
[09:29] <cyberix> They were created automagically.
[09:36] <dholbach> cyberix: is this repeatable? can you generate them again and see if it happens again?
[09:43] <geser> good morning
[09:45] <dholbach> hey geser
[09:48] <cyberix> I don't seem to get the warning, if I build the source package only.
[09:50] <cyberix> So building the binary package changes the files in some way.
[09:51] <TheMuso> Good morning geser
[09:51] <harrisony> morning and evening all
[09:52] <harrisony> is there still going to be a revu day on monday (even though its christmas eve)
[09:57] <geser> Hi dholbach, TheMuso
[10:04] <cyberix> I just got my package ready. What a pitty the next revu day is 24.12 and the one following one is 31.12.
[10:04] <cyberix> :-(
[10:04] <cyberix> pi tty
[10:21] <slytherin> When do generally the requests of type 'move from multiverse to universe' get processed?
[10:26] <geser> slytherin: usually on an archive day
[10:26] <slytherin> geser: And when is that scheduled?
[10:27] <geser> slytherin: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration, right before the first section
[10:27] <geser> today is pitti's archive day
[10:30] <geser> slytherin: if you want you could ask pitti in #ubuntu-devel if this bug will gets processed today
[10:31] <slytherin> No. Leave it.
[11:20] <tsmithe> hi; could i be a pain and ask for a review of mscore (music notation program). i think it's close now :) http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=mscore
[11:21] <tsmithe> the pedant in me requires that i correct that first sentence to add a ?
[11:22] <persia> tsmithe: Everyone is allowed one request a day outside of REVU day.  Don't consider yourself to be being a pain.
[11:22]  * persia has apparently been parndered to, and feels thereby obligated to review.
[11:23] <persia> s/arn/an/
[11:23] <tsmithe> haha, thank you ever so much, persia :D
[11:23] <harrisony> persia: is that 1 package a day or 1 spam in the channel a day
[11:23] <tsmithe> well if i'm allowed a spam as well...
[11:24]  * harrisony has posted the link to ttf-liberation 2ce today :P (make that 2.5)
[11:25] <persia> harrisony: The actual rule is "Don't annoy the developers".  It's written as "ask in #ubuntu-motu, not more than once per day".  Generally, it should only be exercised when you upload changes to the package, and ask.  Someone will likely tell you if you ask too often, but reviewers may ignore you until REVU day unless they have a particular interest.
[11:26] <harrisony> ahhhhh
[11:26] <geser> reminder to all: MOTU meeting in 35 min
[11:27] <harrisony> oooo
[11:27] <persia> harrisony: Twice for the same upload in a single day is on the edge of accepted behaviour.  You can get away with it once in a while, but on non-REVU days, the best type of note is "I just uploaded foo, addressing the reviewer's comments.  Could someone please take a look at http://..."
[11:28] <harrisony> persia: O, i asked once and no one replyed so a few hours later i posted it again. ill refrain from doing that in the future
[11:28] <geser> persia: harrisony wanted to know if there is a REVU day on monday
[11:28] <persia> harrisony: Nobody replying is usually an indication of people being busy.
[11:29] <harrisony> since on monday i wont be around :(
[11:29] <persia> geser: Yes.  Every Monday until FF (although the last couple aren't likely to result in getting into hardy, as the archive admins likely won't have time to review the NEW queue).
[11:29] <harrisony> and need to know weither to hack a ninja irssi script to auto post the link at some time in the day
[11:30] <persia> harrisony: Ah.  Someone might review it anyway.  Don't hack a script: the reason that people respond to advertisements is that the packager will be around for interactive discussion.
[11:30] <geser> persia: even on Dec 24th and Dec 31st?
[11:30] <persia> geser: Yep.  Traffic might be low, but they will officially be REVU days.
[11:31] <geser> ok
[11:31] <harrisony> also where would be the best place to ask about licensing concerns (like debian-legal for ubuntu)
[11:31] <persia> geser: Do you think it's better to announce a break?  I'll likely have time for a couple (but not many), and I'd guess that was true for a couple other people (given the 49-hour "day").
[11:32] <persia> harrisony: There's no equivalent.  You can get hints here, but no authoritative answer.  What license?
[11:33] <joejaxx> Good Morning All
[11:33] <harrisony> http://redhat.com/promo/fonts its gpl+exception and it was rejected for debian but i think a person on LP said that the larabie fonts are in multiverse and are completly non-free so there is hope for them to get in but this package is a real good candiate for main
[11:34] <cyberix> I'm looking after first sponsor for my package malbolge. I have uploaded the package to revu and fixed all relevant linda and lintian errors. http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=malbolge
[11:36] <geser> persia: good question. Will there be enough reviewers and contributors around for a proper REVU day?
[11:36] <geser> Hi joejaxx
[11:36]  * TheMuso won't be around.
[11:38] <persia> geser: I'm not sure, but some of the recent days didn't seem very active either.  It's a balance between people's holiday commitments and the larger number of public holidays at this time of year.  Perhaps sending a reminder that the next week will be an official "Ubuntu break", and so there may be a lower number of reviewers available?
[11:38] <TheMuso> IM O if you are sitting in front of your comuter on Christmas Eve, then theres something wrong. :)
[11:38] <persia> I'm not sure what to do about the 31st: that's officially a working week for Ubuntu (according to the schedule), which makes it harder to say "this isn't REVU day".
[11:38] <geser> persia: sounds good
[11:38] <persia> TheMuso: Maybe.  Not everyone does Christmas.
[11:39] <persia> geser: What about the 31st?
[11:39] <TheMuso> persia: I know that. :)
[11:40] <cyberix> On the other hand any comments regarding my package are welcome.
[11:40] <cyberix> :-)
[11:40]  * persia will be working on the 25th, but has the 24th off due to the Emperor's birthday
[11:41] <geser> persia: I guess most people will be busy with other things than waiting for a review
[11:41] <StevenK> persia: It is really the Emperor's birthday?
[11:42] <persia> geser: That's my thought.  I think we'd see significantly reduced participation by both reviewers and packagers, and thought it might be a balance.  That's likely more true for the 31st, but an annoucement that the 24th is the holiday break week, and REVU day may be understaffed seems appropriate.
[11:42] <persia> StevenK: Actually, Sunday is, but we get Monday off here for holidays that fall on Sunday.
[11:42] <norsetto> Rospo_Zoppo: You can try to have a look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/158432 even though you may not find a solution will be a good exercise anyway
[11:42] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 158432 in abiword "AbiWord crashed with abiword plugins installed" [Medium,Triaged]
[11:43]  * persia notes that Japan has more public holidays that anywhere else, because when there is a new Emperor, the old "Emperor's Birthday" gets a new name, and keeps being a public holiday
[11:43] <Fujitsu> Hah.
[11:43] <TheMuso> I thought canonical had a break until after new year
[11:43] <persia> Fujitsu: The first week of May is especially rich.  There's rarely more than one or two working days :)
[11:43] <DarkMageZ> doesn't france have 1/4 of the year off?
[11:43]  * Rospo_Zoppo looks
[11:43] <Fujitsu> persia: Nice.
[11:44] <persia> DarkMageZ: For every business?  I thought that was including personal holidays.
[11:44] <harrisony> nah canonical are ninja, they dont get breaks
[11:44] <persia> harrisony: Next week is holiday break.
[11:44] <Rospo_Zoppo> norsetto: thank you, I will have a look at it
[11:44] <StevenK> persia: Ah. NSW, QLD and a few other states have a public holiday in June for the Queen of England's birthday, WA and one other state has that public holiday in October, and her actual birthday is in March.
[11:44] <StevenK> persia: Hence the question. :-)
[11:45] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Old Queen of England, actually.
[11:45]  * persia thinks that's just plain wrong.  People's birthdays should be celebrated on the anniversary of the day they were born
[11:45] <persia> Fujitsu: Would it be the case that NSW & QLD appreciate a different Queen than NT, SA, or WA?
[11:46]  * Fujitsu thought $CURRENTQUEEN's birthday was the same as him - 04/21.
[11:46] <Fujitsu> persia: QUite possibly.
[11:46] <norsetto> Rospo_Zoppo: thats in main though, so tread carefully
[11:46] <Rospo_Zoppo> norsetto: ok
[11:47] <Fujitsu> Oh, the Queen's Birthday holiday here is always the second Monday of June. How arbitrary.
[11:49] <persia> That's just plain wrong.  It's one thing to have a "Happy Monday" policy, and move holidays when they don't make for a long weekend, but quite another to be that arbitrary.
[11:50] <zul> doesnt the aussies want to be a republic anyways?
[11:50] <StevenK> (I remember that since my birthday falls around the time of the public holiday)
[11:51] <persia> zul: Some.  It's contentious.
[11:53] <StevenK> I didn't want one earlier because I didn't want Prime Minister Howard becoming President Howard. Now that he's gone, I'm in favour again
[11:54]  * persia enjoys the existence of Emperors, but finds them more useful ceremonially.  Foreign monarchs are just odd.
[11:55] <Rospo_Zoppo> norsetto: I can't reproduce that, maybe is only for AMD64
[11:56] <norsetto> Rospo_Zoppo: they mention its only with the grammar plugin installed
[11:57] <TheMuso> Meeting in 3 mins.
[11:59] <Rospo_Zoppo> norsetto: i've installed abiword-plugins, isn't grammar plugin included in that ?
[12:00] <persia> geser: Announcement sent.  Thanks for the poke.
[12:00] <norsetto> Rospo_Zoppo: I don't know, check it
[12:00] <Rospo_Zoppo> ok
[12:01] <TheMuso> eeting on now in #ubuntu-meeting
[12:01] <TheMuso> `meeting even
[12:06] <TheMuso> If there is anybody here who has had trouble using interdiffs either for getting sponsorship or reviewing, please join #ubuntu-meeting now to discuss why.
[12:39] <persia> dholbach: About recipes: The issue is that I write like a book, or like a script, and have lots of trouble with in-between.
[12:39] <dholbach> persia: no problem - let's discuss it in the new year - I'm happy to work on it
[12:39] <persia> Basically, running interdiff -z packagename_version-revision.diff.gz packagename_newversion-newrevision.diff.gz | gzip --best -c - > packagename_newversion-newrevision.interdiff.gz does it.
[12:39] <dholbach> persia: if you can review it in the end, that'll help me already
[12:39] <persia> dholbach: I'm more than happy to do that.  Thanks.
[12:40] <dholbach> great, thanks persia
[12:40] <dholbach> on my list
[12:42] <TheMuso> And on that note, I'm off to bed. I'll likely not see most of you online in the morning, so seasons greetings to you all, and enjoy your break.
[12:42] <persia> TheMuso: Have a good night, and a good holiday.
[12:42] <TheMuso> I'm heading off tomorrow and will be gone for 5/6 days
[12:42] <dholbach> TheMuso: and the same to you!
[12:42] <TheMuso> dholbach, persia, thanks.
[12:49] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 11 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
[13:13] <drunkmonkey>  Has anyone had a problem with dvd burners not reading blank cd-r's?
[13:13] <awalton__> I think that would be everyone ;)
[13:13] <awalton__> (nothing to read)
[13:20] <DarkMageZ> drunkmonkey, not a support channel. see #ubuntu. and no. my dvd burner cannot read black cd-r's. but it can burn to them.
[13:20] <DarkMageZ> blank*
[13:24]  * persia suspects black is hard too: tends to absorb lasers :)
[13:29] <DarkMageZ> persia, remember the old ps1 discs =D you could actually buy black blank cd-rs ?
[13:29] <persia> DarkMageZ: Well, they weren't really black, but they looked that way :)
[13:35] <slytherin> were they dark blue?
[13:37] <persia> slytherin: I forget exactly.  I think they were partially reflective in infrared, but non-reflective in the visible spectrum.
[13:37] <StevenK> Right.
[13:38] <StevenK> The PS1 has a very sensitive photo-diode, Sony were hoping normal readers weren't as sensitive.
[13:47]  * imbrandon yawns
[13:47] <imbrandon> StevenK: fwiw apt-mirror is in dapper -backports now, got the email about it a few minutes ago
[13:47] <geser> Hi imbrandon
[13:47] <imbrandon> heya geser
[13:48] <StevenK> imbrandon: I'm currently switching to it
[13:48] <imbrandon> cool
[13:48] <StevenK> imbrandon: I had a feature request
[13:48] <imbrandon> :)
[13:48] <imbrandon> debmirror import ? heh
[13:49] <StevenK> imbrandon: A "Run this script after mirroring" feature, so you can rsync down installer-* and extra bits
[13:49] <imbrandon> ahh i'm doing exactly that, i need that feature too as well as TheMuso
[13:50] <imbrandon> also if you manualy rsync something into the same tree
[13:50] <imbrandon> you will need to add lines like
[13:50] <imbrandon> skip-clean http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/dists/sarge/main/installer-i386/
[13:50] <StevenK> Done that
[13:50] <imbrandon> so clean.sh dosent try to clean them
[13:50] <imbrandon> kk
[13:51] <imbrandon> just makin sure
[13:52] <StevenK> clean.sh better not clean them :-)
[13:52] <imbrandon> the fist few runs i always read clean.sh before i ran it
[13:52] <imbrandon> it dosent run automaticly
[13:52] <imbrandon> first*
[13:54] <imbrandon> infact it dosent "need" to be run at all, but then the archive will steadily grow because of superceeded and removed packages
[13:54] <imbrandon> hehe
[13:54] <StevenK> It's a postclean up job anyway?
[13:54] <imbrandon> yea
[13:54] <StevenK> universe/m. Come on, one-liner, move it
[13:54] <StevenK> n-z, and still 14Gb
[13:55] <imbrandon> heh
[13:56] <imbrandon> okies, time for some food
[13:56] <StevenK> imbrandon: If it doesn't run automatically, do I need to run it by hand?
[13:57] <imbrandon> StevenK: yea after the first run or two i stick it on the cron to run just before the next run
[13:57] <imbrandon> so its always one sync behind apt-mirror
[13:57] <imbrandon> but thats just how *I* do it
[13:58] <imbrandon> but the first time or two it generates it i would read it first to verify the skip-clean lines are correct, if you dont use skip-clean lines then its very solid
[13:59] <StevenK> I think an set autoclean option in mirror.list would be nice
[13:59] <StevenK> It mirrors, and then runs clean.sh itself
[13:59] <imbrandon> yea, when i add this other sctip option i'll add that
[14:00] <imbrandon> script*
[14:00] <StevenK> Oh, so I'm getting my feature request today? :-)
[14:00] <imbrandon> probably ;)
[14:00] <imbrandon> once i wake a bit more and acualy open an editor :)
[14:00]  * imbrandon has been awake less than an hour hehe
[14:01] <imbrandon> StevenK: i do have one question though, how good is your perl-regex foo ?
[14:01] <StevenK> Fairly unreadable
[14:02] <StevenK> imbrandon: I can write them fairly well
[14:02] <imbrandon> e.g. one downfall of apt-mirror i havent been able to overcome is , ok you know how it makes /var/spool/apt-mirror/mirror/host.com
[14:02] <StevenK> Right
[14:02] <imbrandon> if credentials are put into the mirror.list it blows up
[14:02] <StevenK> Well, $mirror_path/host.com
[14:02] <imbrandon> like mirroring a private mirror
[14:03] <imbrandon> StevenK: right
[14:03] <StevenK> Oh right, http://user:pass@host/
[14:03] <imbrandon> exactly
[14:03] <StevenK> And http://host:82/ if I recall ?
[14:03] <imbrandon> that kills it
[14:03] <imbrandon> yup
[14:03] <StevenK> Can I see the error?
[14:04] <StevenK> wget should be able to deal with either syntax
[14:04] <imbrandon> well wget does apt-mirror dosent later
[14:04] <StevenK> (Why it doesn't use LWP, who knows)
[14:04] <imbrandon> it tries to make the dirs $mirror/user@host:blah.com
[14:04] <imbrandon> err
[14:04] <StevenK> Ahh
[14:05] <imbrandon> so i would need to strip that info before making the dirs etc
[14:05] <StevenK> It assumes the URL is *just* a URL
[14:05] <imbrandon> right
[14:05] <imbrandon> and whats LWP ?
[14:05] <StevenK> You so didn't just ask me that.
[14:06] <StevenK> LWP (3pm)            - The World-Wide Web library for Perl
[14:06] <imbrandon> ohhh yea, well i think becuse he wanted to keep it to pure perl and wget as the only deps
[14:06] <imbrandon> so it would work virtualy anywhere even on windows
[14:07] <StevenK> LWP is written in pure Perl
[14:07] <StevenK> Then you lose the wget dependancy
[14:07] <imbrandon> is it in every perl install
[14:07] <imbrandon> ?
[14:07] <StevenK> Nope
[14:07] <imbrandon> hrm
[14:07] <imbrandon> still might be worth looking at
[14:07] <StevenK> I think you need libwww-perl for it
[14:08] <imbrandon> as long as all the major distros have it and its avail on windows too i dont see a problem
[14:08] <StevenK> Or support both
[14:08] <imbrandon> yea
[14:09] <imbrandon> that shouldent be hard
[14:09] <imbrandon> i havent seen anyone use it anywhere besides debian/ubuntu but that was part of the initial design heh
[14:10] <imbrandon> was to "work anywhere"
[14:10] <StevenK> imbrandon: Right, so we need a regex, to just give us the hostname. I'm suspecting it already grabs that itself.
[14:10] <imbrandon> yup
[14:18] <StevenK> steven@liquified:~% ./test-regex.pl "steven:lala@test.com:82"
[14:18] <StevenK> test.com
[14:18] <StevenK> imbrandon: ^
[14:18] <imbrandon> killer
[14:19] <imbrandon> i just grabbed a mtdew and doign a fresh checkout now
[14:30] <jelmer> What's the severity a bug should have to justify an updated package in universe in gutsy?
[14:33] <persia> jelmer: It's not about severity, it's about the class of bugs.
[14:34] <persia> The general rule for an SRU is that it 1) causes data loss, 2) the package cannot install, 3) the package cannot build, 4) There is a severe regression from a previous release, 5) The package doesn't work at all (and this last is rejected in some cases).
[14:34] <jelmer> persia, is this documented somewhere?
[14:34] <persia> !sru
[14:34] <ubotu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[14:35] <jelmer> thanks
[14:36] <jdstrand> jelmer: also for security vulnerabilities
[14:36]  * persia notes that jdstrand is correct in the sense of updates to previous releases, but that those are handled quite differently in practice.
[14:37]  * jdstrand was not referring to new upstream releases ;)
[14:38] <persia> jdstrand: Isn't there a different queue, and different process as well?  I thought that uploads to -security were sharply restricted (although I don't really understand much about security patches - I usually stop at "here's a patch").
[14:39] <jdstrand> persia: yes. they security patches/debdiffs for universe are sponsored by the security team, and we process them in our queue
[14:39] <jdstrand> persia: jelmer's question was sufficiently open-ended (to me) that I thought I'd just toss that nugget out for him :)
[14:40] <persia> jdstrand: That's what I thought.  Do you have a pointer to -security procedures to go with that?
[14:40] <jdstrand> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
[14:41] <persia> jelmer: That may also be interesting to you, depending on the nature of the bug.
[14:41] <jdstrand> jelmer: ^^
[14:42] <jelmer> persia, jdstrand: thanks!
[14:42] <jdstrand> :)
[14:43] <slytherin> Does anyone know why libcommons-httpclient-java-doc is in multiverse even though libcommons-httpclient-java is in universe.
[14:43] <persia> slytherin: GFDL leftovers maybe?
[14:43] <persia> Possibly PDF with no source?
[14:43] <slytherin> persia: Don't think so. Package is in main in debian
[14:44] <persia> slytherin: It's in main now.  Was it always?  Ubuntu still has some multiverse leftovers from pre-warty days.
[14:45] <persia> slytherin: Also, for some packages, Debian repacks to make it DFSG free, and Ubuntu uses the full tarball in multiverse.  (this may also not be the case for this specific situation).
[14:45] <slytherin> right, this is not the case. The package is in Debian main since Etch. Looks like it was overlooked.
[14:46] <slytherin> persia: And it is not 'dfsg'ified
[14:46] <persia> slytherin: warty was pre-sarge, so I suspect overlooked is correct.  Thanks for chasing these: properly documenting free java is a good thing :)
[14:47] <slytherin> persia: LP won't let me log a bug against a non-source package.
[14:48] <persia> slytherin: Log the bug against the parent source.  The archive admins can sort it.
[14:48] <slytherin> ok
[14:51] <slytherin> Done. I guess pitti will handle it. :-)
[14:55] <DarkSun88> Hi all
[14:56] <persia> slytherin: Today was pitti's archive-admin day.  Next week I don't think there will be any archive admin days (but would be happy to be wrong about that).  Likely the Monday archive-admin will hit it on the 31st (if they work that day).
[14:57] <slytherin> No issues. :-)
[15:02] <mruiz> archive-admin day?
[15:03] <persia> mruiz: Each of the archive admins takes a turn processing the archive-admin bugs and the NEW queue.  Usually one day a week.
[15:03] <persia> They all do other things as well, and may hit choice bugs when it's not their day, but the rotation helps keep the queues small.
[15:04] <mruiz> :o
[15:47] <bddebian> Heya gang
[15:47] <imbrandon> heya bddebian
[15:47] <bddebian> Hi imbrandon
[15:52] <geser> Hi bddebian
[15:52] <bddebian> Heya geser
[16:17] <imbrandon> zomg , i've lived this sooo many times
[16:17] <imbrandon> http://xkcd.com/349/
[16:19] <geser> :)
[16:24] <jeromeg> jdong: hello are you here ?
[17:33] <Toadstool> heya everybody
[17:35] <bddebian> Heya Toadstool
[17:35] <Toadstool> hey bddebian!
[17:35] <Toadstool> how is it going?
[17:43] <bddebian> OK thanks, yourself?
[17:48] <Toadstool> bddebian: I am alright
[18:09] <dholbach> hey norsetto_limbo! :-))
[18:13] <dholbach> Merry Christmas and all the best in 2008 to everybody! See you soon again!
[18:13] <mruiz> cya dholbach !
[18:14] <dholbach> bye mruiz
[18:16] <Kmos> dholbach: Merry Xmas!!
[18:16] <dholbach> bye Kmos
[18:16] <Kmos> dholbach: when you come back ?
[18:18] <dholbach> Kmos: in two weeks - I'll read emails every now and then, but won't be on IRC
[18:19]  * dholbach packs his stuff to visit his parents tomorrow and then be off to Austria to attempt to go snowboarding :-)
[18:19] <Kmos> dholbach: ah ok =) thanks
[18:19] <geser> dholbach: please come back in one piece :)
[18:20] <pochu> dholbach: make photos and share them when you're back! :-)
[18:20] <dholbach> geser: I'll do my best - don't worry
[18:20] <dholbach> pochu: promise :)
[18:21] <dholbach> see you guys *big hugs*
[18:40] <nixternal> what is the easy way for me to merge a debian changelog and an ubuntu changelog? besides split view in emacs and copy/pasting
[21:22] <cyberix> Please point out a bug in http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=malbolge
[21:22] <cyberix> Even a tiny little one.
[21:22]  * cyberix is eager to fix it.
[21:23] <cyberix> :-)
[21:41] <warp10> I have a problem with a rules. It works fine, but if I export CFLAGS to make it doesn't build anymore
[21:47] <norsetto> warp10: pastebin ?
[21:48] <warp10> norsetto: here is the rules: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49210/ and the log: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49211/
[21:48] <warp10> norsetto: it's for the tennix package you reviewed
[21:49] <norsetto> warp10: its failing because it can't find the libraries anymore
[21:50] <norsetto> warp10: at least the headers, there is no flag and perhaps the headers are not in /usr/include
[21:50] <norsetto> warp10: can you check what is in the Makefile from upstream?
[21:51] <warp10> norsetto: this is the makefile: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49212/
[21:52] <norsetto> warp10: try this in the makefile CFLAGS="your flags" $(MAKE)
[21:53] <warp10> norsetto: in rules, you mean?
[21:53] <norsetto> warp10: sorry, I meant in rules yes
[21:55] <warp10> norsetto: great! It builds now :)
[21:55] <norsetto> warp10: yes, thats because now we export CFLAGS instead of passing it as an option
[21:56] <warp10> norsetto: I see... I'll remember this for future packaging tasks
[22:30] <sistpoty> hi folks
[22:31] <norsetto> hi sist
[22:31] <sistpoty> hi nors ;)
[22:33] <sistpoty> hm... is there anything wrong with revu?
[22:33] <sistpoty> (as in I don't get a page...)
[22:35] <norsetto> sistpoty: seems to be down
[22:35] <warp10> sistpoty: I was just uploading to revu and it looks frozen
[22:35] <nixternal> ya, same here
[22:36] <sistpoty> hm...
[22:36] <Nafallo> sistpoty: kick it? ;-)
[22:36] <sistpoty> Nafallo: trying to :)
[22:36] <nixternal> I take it revu.ubuntuwire.com is tied into it as well
[22:37] <sistpoty> nixternal: yep, that's an alias for sparky.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
[22:37] <norsetto> oh cool, we lost all the comments on dad
[22:37] <nixternal> hehe
[22:37] <nixternal> that's cool?
[22:37] <norsetto> nixternal: do you want to see me banned ?
[22:38] <sistpoty> hm.. I can ping sparky, but not much else :(
[22:39] <sistpoty> oh, so sparky *is* alive (ssh, ftp, http open)... maybe a ns problem of sparky
[22:39] <nixternal> norsetto: I can ban you if you would like, so it wouldn't really be all that exciting :)
[22:40] <norsetto> nixternal: for that I would suggest sistpoty's show on the snow
[22:41] <nixternal> haha
[22:41] <sistpoty> you must really misbehave... otherwise it wouldn't be a threat any longer :P
[22:41] <sistpoty> (and actually I've got a movie, not a picture :P)
[23:15] <TheMuso> Anybody with ops around to change the topic? Alpha 2 is releaed.
[23:16] <norsetto> TheMuso: I thought anyone can do?
[23:17] <TheMuso> norsetto: ?
[23:17] <norsetto> TheMuso: I was playing with it and realised I could do it (ops ..) so I guess anyone can
[23:18] <sistpoty> oh, so can I ... *undoing the damag*
[23:18] <sistpoty> +e
[23:19] <imbrandon> :)
[23:19] <sistpoty> imbrandon: isn't there s.th. like +t for the channel?
[23:19] <imbrandon> sistpoty: yea but its intentionaly left open
[23:19] <sistpoty> ah, k
[23:20] <imbrandon> as with ops, been that way over a year now, maybe more
[23:20] <imbrandon> so we can "self police" :)
[23:20] <sistpoty> hehe
[23:20]  * imbrandon jabs siretart, reboot revu
[23:20] <imbrandon> :)
[23:20] <TheMuso> Oh I meant that for ubuntustudio-dev, don't mind me. :)
[23:21] <imbrandon> TheMuso: umm no alpha 2 for us?
[23:21] <imbrandon> lol
[23:21] <TheMuso> SOrry, i thought ops were needed to change the topic in here
[23:21] <imbrandon> oh nope
[23:21] <sistpoty> imbrandon: I don't think it needs a reboot... see the mail I just wrote...
[23:21]  * imbrandon JUST got his new system togather
[23:22] <imbrandon> woot
[23:22] <sistpoty> imbrandon: aaargh... got s.th. wrong with my mail setup... still stuck in my cue
[23:22] <imbrandon> heh
[23:22] <slangasek> topic
[23:22] <slangasek> hmm, where's that / key
[23:22] <imbrandon> slangasek: :)
[23:24] <imbrandon> mmm wobbly windows /me looks for the "off" button
[23:24] <sistpoty> slangasek: btw.: thanks for offering help for the library packing session!
[23:25] <slangasek> sistpoty: sure
[23:25] <slangasek> will follow up to the mail thread sometime soon
[23:25] <sistpoty> hehe, same as me *g*
[23:26] <minghua> So we finally got Alpha 2 out of the door before the holiday season?  Nice.
[23:36] <Fujitsu> slangasek: Where's my poem? :(
[23:38] <slangasek> Fujitsu: poems are for alpha1
[23:38] <Fujitsu> Ah, damn.
[23:50] <sistpoty> aaaaahrg... exim4's upgrade path is so horrible... forgot a change a few revisioins ago and you're doomed
[23:52] <sistpoty> eventually, anoyone else could send a note to ubuntu-motu-ml that revu is down atm?
[23:52] <sistpoty> anyone even
[23:59]  * Fujitsu wonders if eeeXubuntu is actually from anybody Ubuntuish.