[04:10] <ubotu> New bug: #178393 in launchpad "chopped announcements at main page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/178393
[11:02] <gustavonarea> Hi. Is Lauchpad Free Software or is it developed closed-doors? Thanks in advance.
[11:08] <Fujitsu> gustavonarea: It is currently proprietary software, though the intention is to eventually release all of it under Free terms.
[11:21] <gustavonarea> Fujitsu: Thanks for your answer. Why does a company that "claims" to support Free Software develop a tool that would come in handy for more people in the community, but doesn't share the code? I, as a K/Ubuntu contributor, hate to contribute to a company that takes advantage of Free Software, but doesn't share the code of a very useful tool. I hate lock-ins, and I expected you did too. It's unacceptable for a company like 
[11:21] <gustavonarea> Canonical (whose business model is supposed to be oriented toward Free Software).
[11:22] <Peng> Because they're really owned by Microsoft.
[11:22] <Peng> Launchpad is written in .NET.
[11:22] <Peng> :D
[11:23] <gustavonarea> Peng, are you serious?
[11:23] <Peng> No.
[11:23] <Fujitsu> gustavonarea: Note that I'm not a Canonical employee, merely an Ubuntu developer.
[11:23] <Fujitsu> gustavonarea: Launchpad is written in Python, using Zope 3.
[11:23] <Peng> How do you really know for sure . . .?
[11:24] <Fujitsu> Peng: I've seen tiny portions of the code, and errors.
[11:31] <gustavonarea> Fujitsu: As a Ubuntu developer, how do you feel about being a volunteer of a company with double face? On one hand they take advantage of existing products and of the community to improve them, but on the other hand, they develop a powerful software, but don't give it back to the community its business depends on.
[11:32] <Fujitsu> gustavonarea: I feel that some of Canonical's reasons for keeping the source closed are potentially quite valid, at least for the time being.
[11:33] <Fujitsu> It is unfortunate that it is this way, and it does get most irritating at times that we are unable to fix issues in it, but there are reasons, and we know it will eventually be Freed.
[11:36] <Fujitsu> I respect Canonical's need to generate a revenue stream from Launchpad, and that its proprietaryness is a necessary evil for that at the moment.
[11:37] <kripken> gustavonarea: Historically, 'free software' was always intended to mean the software a person runs on his/her computer. It is less relevant for software running a server far away from you. This applies to both Launchpad as well as to basically all Google services. I think that, perhaps, a time will come when we care about server code being free, but it might be in a different way. See e.g. the current debate about the Affero GPL 
[11:37] <kripken> license
[11:38] <gustavonarea> Fujitsu: You seem to be aware of those reasons, but I am not. Where can I learn more about them? We, the community backing Canonical's business, deserve an explanation, and I guess Canonical has already explained so but I'm not aware of that
[11:40] <Fujitsu> gustavonarea: See the `why is Launchpad proprietary?' question on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/askmark.
[11:41] <Fujitsu> Also see the Launchpad question further up.
[11:46] <Fujitsu> (you'd probably get some better answers from Canonical employees who are Launchpad developers, but they're all on holiday at the moment)
[11:49] <gustavonarea> kripken: Aside from the debate about web services/applications being freed (http://www.ariadacapo.net/blog/the-operating-system-is-disappearing/), the fact is that Canonical has our support (mostly) because of the freeness/openess in development/enhancement of the software products, and they should be coherent with that philosophy at any moment, but they don't.
[11:51] <gustavonarea> Fujitsu: Thanks for the link
[11:51] <kripken> gustavonarea: To some extent I agree - I'd like Launchpad to be free, for the reasons you mention. However, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. The same goes for Slashdot, lwn.net, SourceForge, etc. (although I believe some of these release source code, at least partially?)
[11:54] <Peng> SourceForge has public code (GForge, I think). I don't know if it's completely complete. Slashdot too (Slashcode).
[11:55] <LarstiQ> gforge being an ooold fork, but yeah
[11:55] <kripken> thanks for the info
[11:55] <Fujitsu> Old with lots and lots more `o's.
[11:55] <LarstiQ> gustavonarea: what would you do with the launchpad code if you had it?
[11:56] <Peng> LarstiQ: Ah.
[11:56] <Peng> Public code would make me feel a bit better about relying on it.
[11:56] <gustavonarea> kripten: it sounds sentible
[11:56] <Peng> I guess the data is even more important though...
[11:57] <Peng> s/even more important/the important part/
[11:57] <Fujitsu> There will be ways to retrieve the data soon.
[11:57]  * Fujitsu celebrates the coming API.
[11:57] <Peng> That'll be nice.
[11:58] <LarstiQ> Peng: agreed, but I can't really point to a practical reason for me feeling better, just a fuzzy "it's the right thing". Actual bugfixes will still need to be rolled out into production, and I sincerely believe more than one lp instance is harmful
[11:59] <LarstiQ> now if someone were to have a brilliant idea for the distributed version, that would be great
[11:59] <gustavonarea> LarstiQ: Good question. In a few years, I'd probably have a free software company and I'd like to customize the look and feel of Launchpad, according to my company image
[11:59] <Fujitsu> LarstiQ: Mhm.
[12:00] <Peng> LarstiQ: Right, but fuzzy feeling are nice.
[12:01] <LarstiQ> Peng: oh yes :)
[12:01] <LarstiQ> gustavonarea: Right, that has merits. But for me the access/migration of data and easier workflow between upstream/downstream is more important than look and feel.
[12:03] <Fujitsu> Having all bugs able to be shared easily is a great goal, which would be completely destroyed by having multiple Launchpads. However, I feel that most upstreams won't consider switching until it isn't entirely controlled by one commercial entity. Particularly distributions, as Canonical sort of has a bit of an interest in one in particular.
[12:03] <Fujitsu> We'll see, I guess.
[12:04] <Peng> Hg support in Launchpad would make me feel better about Canonical too.
[12:05] <gustavonarea> LarstiQ: Right, but another reason is that development of the software products will be the most important thing in the company. If it relied on Launchpad.net, basically my entire company would be on Canonical's hands. In my opinion, descentralization is extremelly important.
[12:06]  * Peng wanders off.
[12:07] <LarstiQ> Fujitsu: yeah, that is an issue
[12:07] <LarstiQ> gustavonarea: it is, but it
[12:07] <LarstiQ> 's not easy
[12:07] <Fujitsu> I've regularly pondered how a distributed Launchpad could work.
[12:08] <gustavonarea> Fujitsu: That would be wonderful
[12:08] <kripken> I think that decentralization of Launchpad should *eventually* be done, but I don't blame Canonical for postponing this for now. There are more important things.
[12:08] <Peng> LP uses all of those different subdomains (and even an entire separate domain). I wonder how easy it would be to make it more portable?
[12:08]  * Peng wanders off.
[12:08] <Fujitsu> Peng: It's not meant to be at all portable.
[12:09] <Peng> If it was made open source, that'd be kinda important.
[12:09]  * Peng wanders off!
[12:09] <Peng> Good night.
[12:09] <LarstiQ> I'm not sure how that effects portability.
[12:09] <Fujitsu> Night.
[12:09] <Fujitsu> LarstiQ: Somewhat harder to set up, I guess.
[12:10] <Peng> yeah.
[12:10]  * Peng wanders off.
[12:15] <gustavonarea> People, I have to leave. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Happy holidays!
[12:15] <Fujitsu> YOu too, gustavonarea.
[12:15] <LarstiQ> Peng: are you a marathonrunner by the way? ;)
[12:16] <kripken> Happy holidays to you as well :)
[14:21] <``Cube> im a tango artist, does any project need an icon?
[14:22] <kripken> any project whatsoever, or do you have standards?
[14:22] <``Cube> any project
[14:22] <``Cube> ill try to create an icon that follows the tango guidelines
[14:23] <``Cube> or what do you mean by standarts?
[14:23] <``Cube> *standards
[14:23] <kripken> well, my project would welcome tango icons, but it is a pretty unimportant project ;)
[14:23] <kripken> The project is a lightweight PDF viewer, https://launchpad.net/valence
[14:23] <``Cube> it doesn't matter how big the project is :P
[14:24] <``Cube> any idea how the icon could look like?
[14:25] <kripken> no, I'm not too good at that stuff...
[14:26] <kripken> Perhaps a document of some sort, with a hint of it being lightweight somehow
[14:29] <``Cube> im sorry, I was away
[14:30] <``Cube> well, the problem is the metaphor for lightweight :S
[14:30] <``Cube> hmm
[14:30] <kripken> yep :)
[14:30] <kripken> wings? transparency? (probably bad ideas)
[14:33] <``Cube> nono
[14:33] <``Cube> wings wouldn't be that bad
[14:33] <``Cube> as well as transparency
[14:33] <``Cube> hmm
[14:33] <``Cube> but, you know, they should be easy to distinguish
[14:34] <kripken> yeah
[14:35] <``Cube> well
[14:36] <``Cube> perheps something with a V inside?
[14:36] <``Cube> so that a little bit of your old icon stays
[14:36] <kripken> That's fine, but I don't mind a completely new icon, I just made that one in 2 minutes
[14:37] <``Cube> hehe ;)
[14:37] <``Cube> ok
[14:39] <``Cube> hmm ok, wings were a good idea, but its not possible to implement them
[14:40] <kripken> no?
[14:40] <``Cube> it wouldn't be distinguishable
[14:40] <``Cube> and transparency
[14:40] <``Cube> hmm
[14:41] <``Cube> perhept something with PDF?
[14:42] <kripken> sure
[14:42] <kripken> btw, the word Valence means "extract, preparation." So perhaps something liquid, or a waterdrop
[14:46] <``Cube> what language?
[14:46] <``Cube> well, I created an icon
[14:46] <kripken> I think old English
[14:46] <``Cube> but it reall sucks
[14:46] <``Cube> ah ok
[14:47] <kripken> probably from latin I guess
[14:48] <``Cube> yeayea, I know that word from somewhere
[14:48] <``Cube> from chemistry
[14:48] <``Cube> but nevermind 
[14:48] <``Cube> the icon (which sucks) is ready
[14:48] <kripken> yeah, today its used in chemistry
[14:48] <kripken> ok, lets see. Send it here: thoughtcube@gmail.com
[14:48] <``Cube> I won't even publish the link here
[14:48] <``Cube> oh
[14:49] <``Cube> ill send it in pirvate chat ok?
[14:49] <kripken> ok sure
[14:49] <``Cube> don't get a shock
[14:49] <``Cube> I can do better things :P
[14:49] <``Cube> one second
[14:49] <kripken> ok :)
[14:50] <``Cube> did you get it?
[14:50] <``Cube> kripken: ?
[14:50] <kripken> yeah, I see. Very good
[14:50] <``Cube> lol?
[14:51] <kripken> you made it just now?
[14:51] <``Cube> yea ;)
[14:51] <kripken> well, I am seriously impressed, that was fast work and I like it
[14:51] <``Cube> heh ;)
[14:51] <``Cube> thanks
[14:51] <``Cube> well, ill edit the shadow a little bit
[14:51] <``Cube> one second...
[14:51] <kripken> btw what size is it?
[14:51] <``Cube> 48x48
[14:51] <kripken> ok
[14:52] <``Cube> you need 192x192 and 64x64, right?
[14:52] <kripken> hmm
[14:52] <kripken> Launchpad needs 14, 64, 192
[14:52] <``Cube> 14x14???!?!?!
[14:53] <``Cube> or just a typo of 16x16?
[14:53] <kripken> it says 14x14 :)
[14:53] <``Cube> that's small as hell
[14:53] <kripken> "A small image of exactly 14x14 pixels and at most 5kb in size, that can be used to identify this project. The icon will be displayed next to the project name everywhere in Launchpad that we refer to the project and link to it."
[14:53] <``Cube> 16x16 already is
[14:53] <``Cube> hmm
[14:53] <``Cube> can you give me an example?
[14:53] <kripken> I think this is used for really really tiny thumbnails on Launchpad lists
[14:54] <``Cube> ah ok isee
[14:54] <kripken> hmm
[14:54] <``Cube> ok
[14:54] <``Cube> nono, got it already
[14:54] <``Cube> ehm
[14:54] <kripken> ok
[14:54] <``Cube> 3 minutes for 14x14, 4 for 64 and 5 minutes for 192 is?
[14:54] <``Cube> 12 minutes, and your icons is ready
[14:55] <kripken> thanks :)
[15:08] <``Cube> ok 192 is ready
[15:08] <``Cube> maybe took lil bit longer
[15:08] <``Cube> kripken: want it?
[15:08] <kripken> definitely
[15:08] <``Cube> hehe :D
[15:09] <kripken> same place?
[15:09] <``Cube> did you get the file transfer?
[15:09] <``Cube> uh
[15:09] <``Cube> no
[15:09] <``Cube> wait
[15:09] <``Cube> moment
[15:09] <kripken> no, I didn't get a file transfer
[15:09] <kripken> no wait, maybe I did
[15:10] <``Cube> now
[15:10] <``Cube> its in the folder now
[15:10] <``Cube> http://cubibubi.cu.funpic.de/tango/valence/
[15:10] <``Cube> now
[15:11] <kripken> file transfer won't work
[15:11] <kripken> ok
[15:12] <kripken> they look good :)
[15:13] <kripken> I added the 192 to the site
[15:22] <kripken> still waiting for 64 and 14 ;)
[18:20] <``Cube> kripken: !!!
[18:20] <``Cube> sorry
[18:20] <``Cube> I had to go
[18:20] <``Cube> but now im back
[18:20] <``Cube> and the icons are all ready
[18:20] <kripken> heh, no problem :)
[18:20] <kripken> yeah? great
[18:20] <``Cube> wait
[18:21] <``Cube> gonna upload'em
[18:21] <kripken> excellent
[18:23] <``Cube> ftp://cubibubi.cu.funpic.de/tango/valence/
[18:23] <``Cube> indeed
[18:23] <``Cube> oops
[18:23] <``Cube> http:t//cubibubi.cu.funpic.de/tango/valence/
[18:23] <``Cube> shit
[18:23] <``Cube> http://cubibubi.cu.funpic.de/tango/valence/
[18:23] <kripken> lol
[18:23] <``Cube> ok
[18:23] <``Cube> this one now
[18:23] <``Cube> ehm :D now this part: will I be metioned somewhere in the project?
[18:23] <``Cube> perhaps in the page, or the about file in the project files?
[18:24] <kripken> I have even already added your name, my friend :)
[18:25] <kripken> in the about dialog
[18:25] <kripken> but let me also add you to the README
[18:26] <kripken> Do you want your full name there or just ``Cube?
[18:26] <``Cube> full name would be better
[18:26] <``Cube> woot
[18:26] <``Cube> lol its all already there
[18:27] <``Cube> ehm
[18:27] <``Cube> wait
[18:27] <``Cube> something is wrong with 64x64
[18:28] <kripken> I need your full name, then :)
[18:28] <kripken> If you are looking at the icons in the project, I didn't upload your icons yet, those are ones I scaled myself... ignore them
[18:31] <``Cube> aah ok :P
[18:31] <kripken> so, full name?
[18:32] <``Cube> type /whois ``Cube
[18:32] <kripken> ok, cool
[18:32] <``Cube> got it?
[18:32] <``Cube> I see, you updated them
[18:32] <``Cube> very good
[18:33] <kripken> yes
[18:33] <kripken> they are very nice icons, thanks again
[18:34] <kripken> ok, pushed the latest icons to the repo, with the updated credits
[18:35] <``Cube> cool!
[18:36] <``Cube> if you want, you can link to my blog entry
[18:36] <``Cube> http://cubestuff.wordpress.com/2007/12/24/valence-goes-tango/
[18:36] <``Cube> was the previous icon bad?
[18:36] <kripken> I can add a link if you want, no problem
[18:37] <kripken> ok, I have to go, ttyl
[18:37] <``Cube> wow cool!
[18:37] <``Cube> thanks
[18:37] <``Cube> yea
[18:37] <``Cube> does anyone else need an icon here?
[18:53] <groo> hi/2 all..
[18:53] <somerville32> Is there a reason why this link doesn't work?: https://edge.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/hardy/+source/xfce4-mixer/1:4.4.2-2ubuntu1
[18:54] <somerville32> I get an indefinite redirect
[18:54] <groo> any ppa developers around here? or is there a specific channel for ppa?
[18:57] <``Cube> im a tango artist, does any project here need an icon?
[18:59] <groo> anyone here is having problems in uploading packages to PPA?
[19:01] <``Cube> yes, its #launchpad-ppa
[19:11] <``Cube> hehe groo :D
[21:10] <ubotu> New bug: #178502 in malone "Lack of permissions when viewing expirable-bugs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/178502
[21:11] <Fujitsu> somerville32: Bug #131478
[21:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 131478 in soyuz "Epoched DistroSourcePackageReleases redirect eternally if using a /distros URL" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/131478
[21:17] <somerville32> Fujitsu, jthanks.
[21:20] <Fujitsu> somerville32: So, just drop the distros/ from the URL. You got there from Seveas' feeds?
[21:20] <somerville32> Fujitsu, aye
[21:21] <Fujitsu> Good. I haven't seen another source of distros/ URLs in a while.