[01:04] <troy_s> Help me.  I think I need to remove myself from the list having read that last post.
[05:07] <somerville32> troy_s, lol
[05:07] <somerville32> What did it say?
[05:07] <troy_s> somerville32: Just more of the same really.
[05:07] <troy_s> somerville32: But it is quite uh... interesting... some of the commentary you get on the list.
[05:08] <somerville32> :(
[05:09] <troy_s> somerville32: Although I am convinced I am going to go ballistic if I read 'Brown is evil' type comment.
[05:10] <troy_s> somerville32: When in the end, it is just poor design, NOT the brown.
[05:10] <somerville32> Brown is yummy :)
[05:10] <troy_s> somerville32: Well... it _can_ be.  It isn't yet.  But it _can_ be if coupled with a concept etc.
[05:10]  * somerville32 nods.
[05:17] <BHSPitMonkey> I might go ballistic if I see another "Why is Ubuntu brown, that's what color poop is" comment :)
[05:17] <BHSPitMonkey> I swear some people have never been outside
[05:19] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Well god knows I tried to persuade sab away from glossy and brown.
[05:19] <BHSPitMonkey> :P
[05:22] <BHSPitMonkey> heh, hardy mockups are being thrown around in -offtopic
[05:22] <BHSPitMonkey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Unity  :P
[05:24] <BHSPitMonkey> personally I think the wiki shouldn't have art submissions organized by release
[05:25] <BHSPitMonkey> as opposed to a big pool of "ubuntu" idease
[05:25] <BHSPitMonkey> ideas, even
[05:26] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Mocks are rather worthless.
[05:26] <BHSPitMonkey> I don't believe so
[05:26] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: 1) It isn't like any single one will come along and make everyone go 'YES'.  Just not going to happen (see countless audience rants).
[05:26] <BHSPitMonkey> -any- UI starts with a mockup.
[05:27] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: 2) There is zero direction from the top regarding concept, goals, etc.
[05:27] <BHSPitMonkey> that's true, yes
[05:27] <troy_s> (although there is lots of that flakey hipster talk like 'Let's make it ROCK!' or 'Jaw dropping beautiful!'
[05:28] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: I have learned _soooooo_ much just watching the Ubuntu dog chase its tail... worth the price of admission alone.
[05:29] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: The biggest scary element though is a full court press to get rid of brown and drop in some other completely pathetic attempt like SUSE or Fedora -- 'It isn't brown!!!  All of our problems are solved.'
[05:29] <troy_s> it is just such a pathetic and immature view of art / design / and otherwise.
[05:29] <BHSPitMonkey> heh
[05:30] <BHSPitMonkey> well maybe I'm just becoming hardened, but I'm starting to think that art has no place in an operating system
[05:30] <BHSPitMonkey> that it just needs to be squares and colors and icons
[05:32] <troy_s> Wholly christ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAdku9YhSCI
[05:32] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Art / Design has a very real place, our little troupe isn't quite ready to discuss the things yet.  (Although the numbers of people who are going to be able to wage that war _are_ growing.)
[05:33] <troy_s> Right now it is nothing more than politicks.  It needs to get back the principles, the work, and the desire of taking things in a direction.
[05:33] <troy_s> There is no sense in contributing work or anything until that battle is fought and _won_.
[05:34] <BHSPitMonkey> frankly there are existent battles that need to be fought along the same lines
[05:34] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Probably agree.  What did you have in mind?
[05:35] <BHSPitMonkey> I mean in the world and governments, which make concentrating on Ubuntu so hard seem silly to me
[05:35] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Read that ridiculous mail by julien.  I can't believe my eyes when I read that.
[05:35] <BHSPitMonkey> but everyone has a distraction they've invested themselves in right now
[05:35] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Somewhere in that post was a third world view of Free Software as a fourth class citizen.  And I nearly fell over when I read "Doesn't have the resources" and "volunteer"
[05:36] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Oh and make no mistake -- Free Software is at least as important (Ubuntu in the smaller sense -- but it is the one with the tidal wave so we need to run with it)
[05:37] <BHSPitMonkey> lol, I don't want to pay extra for a crossbow-proof monitor
[05:37] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Scary as hell though.
[05:37] <troy_s> ;)
[05:38] <BHSPitMonkey> crazy foreigners
[05:38] <BHSPitMonkey> I'm liking asus latelt
[05:38] <BHSPitMonkey> lately, even
[05:38] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: They appear to be doing things well I must say.
[05:39] <BHSPitMonkey> I want my friend to buy an eee so I can play with it
[05:42] <troy_s> wholly crap http://www.barechoons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27
[05:42] <troy_s> try the 2nd page and move the ball down to the tank tread thing then shake it.
[05:42] <troy_s> (crap flash, but wow.
[05:43] <troy_s> _WOW_
[05:43] <troy_s> that's bonkers
[05:43] <troy_s> that guy deserves the official "OK -- I'm a genius" pin.
[05:47] <troy_s> i got the tank tread off and stuck up on the shelf... that's just bonkers.  i can't quite explain it.
[05:49] <BHSPitMonkey> I don't follow
[05:51] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Did you try that?
[05:51] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: http://www.barechoons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27
[05:51] <BHSPitMonkey> it's exactly like the game Crayon Physics
[05:51] <BHSPitMonkey> or its clone which I have on my iPod Touch
[05:52] <BHSPitMonkey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsTqspnvAaI
[05:54] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Wow that's pretty cool.  But try the tank tread.
[05:57] <BHSPitMonkey> get the tank tread to do what exactly
[05:57] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Uses the same lib.
[05:57] <BHSPitMonkey> I put it up on the dominos and it did a cool thing reversing their collapsed direction
[06:08] <troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Yeah cool.  Shake the tank tread.  You can 'break' it.
[06:08] <BHSPitMonkey> I did that the first time, by accident
[06:13] <BHSPitMonkey> try the golf game on the right
[06:13] <BHSPitMonkey> level 9 is a stinke
[06:13] <BHSPitMonkey> r
[06:15] <BHSPitMonkey> s/stinker/impossible/
[06:16] <BHSPitMonkey> finally finished
[11:05] <DanaG> Hmm, random post in this -studio topic has an interesting idea: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=562334&page=3
[11:06] <DanaG> (off-topic for that thread, and thus on-topic for here.  Quote next post: "That's ubuntu, not ubuntu studio. ")
[12:01] <thorwil> ^ i guess that was about http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sp4449a.jpg
[18:41] <troy_s> julien is completely ill - informed.
[18:58] <thorwil> :)
[19:44] <troy_s> thorwil: It's sad when someone doesn't realize that funding has nothing to do with it.  It is more about vision and execution than anything.
[19:45] <thorwil> troy_s: but funding can help quite a bit with vision and execution ;)
[19:47] <thorwil> but i do think an open source project could take it up with apple
[19:56] <_MMA_> thorwil: As long as there's a small group of people (maybe 3) or a person who makes the final decision, sure. Design by committee isn't the way to go.
[19:56] <_MMA_> Part of what we have now on the list is people waiting around for direction and aren't remembering that the direction will come after the holidays.
[20:02] <thorwil> if only that were the full picture
[20:04] <thorwil> ok, you said "part of" :)
[20:11]  * thorwil wonders if he will ever master drawing ellipses
[20:29] <troy_s> thorwil: 2nd comment 100% spot on.
[20:30] <troy_s> thorwil: This is new ground.  It will take time for everyone to get a process in place and 'get on the same page'.  First we all need to get a page of course
[20:30] <troy_s> thorwil: And re funding -- it isn't really an issue.
[20:30] <troy_s> thorwil: If it were, Microsoft would have the most lauded design.
[20:31] <troy_s> thorwil: A common, well-thought out goal doesn't hurt.  I don't know Ubuntu will ever get to that under the current circumstance as it seems the folks on high don't understand what that means.
[20:32] <troy_s> thorwil: (And 2nd re funding - there are _countless_ examples of amazing art and design out there -- some from zero funded individuals groups.  It just seems that as soon as anyone tries to suggest that xxx-operatingsystem-unreleated design is successful for yyy reasons, a vocal ignorant group goes 'but we aren't a xxx company'
[20:32] <troy_s> thorwil: And when we keep to 'contextually identical' groups such as Apple, you get equally ignorant contrarianisms.
[20:33] <troy_s> Aside from that, Damian's mail pretty much summed it up.  I'll bide my time until more folks such as Damian and Henning arrive on the scene.
[20:35] <thorwil> troy_s: what i mean is rather that funding - as in paying people - helps to keep everyone in line. and allows full time work. but otherwise agreed
[20:35] <troy_s> thorwil: True enough -- it allows you to forge ahead with a plan.  That said, Ubuntu has been doing that now for nearly four years with nothing but mediocre and tepid delivery.
[20:36] <thorwil> troy_s: with a common theory, it's all about bill gates vs steve jobs. but where would mark be? ;)
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: Mark is definitely a Bill.
[20:36] <_MMA_> lol.
[20:36] <thorwil> ouch. heh
[20:37] <troy_s> thorwil: It is as I have tried to say many times -- design and caring for the fine arts is something that is either a key goal or not.
[20:37] <troy_s> thorwil: Bill was much the same way.
[20:37] <_MMA_> And without knowing either man, I'll take that for what it's worth. ;)
[20:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: It is quite well documented.  You can access much of what Steve studied in Uni etc. online.  Not to mention the actual views from the man recorded in interviews.
[20:38] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sad thing is, once there is a direction the traffic on the list will halve.
[20:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: Of course, legacies speak for themselves on all three turfs.
[20:38] <_MMA_> Good for those that will actually work I guess.
[20:39] <troy_s> _MMA_: Not really.
[20:39] <troy_s> _MMA_: If there is still a lack of concept or poorly thought out, poorly documented, poorly reasoned set of 'decisions' in place, we are no better off.
[20:40] <_MMA_> Like you said, "if". I hope to see you fine-tune what ever decision comes down from on-high.
[20:41] <_MMA_> But I'm sure we will lose people based on whatever concept comes down.
[20:41] <_MMA_> Hell, we lost wedderburn because he didnt like the "DIY" thing.
[20:41] <thorwil> never mind loosing people if the right ones stay
[20:42] <thorwil> losing
[20:42] <_MMA_> thorwil: Thats my point."Good for those that will actually work I guess."
[20:43] <_MMA_> People will also have to deal with the fact that Hardy's art will be a mid-point to what +1 will be.
[20:44] <thorwil> doubt it
[20:44] <troy_s> _MMA_: If you had the three or four folks I chat with 'around' Ubuntu art land, you would have a product.
[20:44] <_MMA_> thorwil: ?
[20:44] <thorwil> would be insane to do the theme change for hardy
[20:45] <thorwil> and last i heard making LTS the last with a theme was still an option
[20:45] <_MMA_> thorwil: It will change slightly and +1 will be the target for whatever direction pops up.
[20:45] <crimsun> We need a mood ring in the installer that chooses the default theme for the user.
[20:46] <troy_s> _MMA_: My gut tells me that most with ability and skills won't be following questionable decisions.
[20:46] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. IMO Mark is the biggest road-block from listening to him in Boston.
[20:46] <troy_s> _MMA_: He is certainly a big one.
[20:46] <troy_s> _MMA_: I can state that first hand.
[20:47] <_MMA_> troy_s: pfftt.. Anyone will find something questionable.
[20:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: And his conceptual 'breadth' of art and design is ... limited.  Worse, it doesn't appear he is even remotely interested.
[20:47] <_MMA_> crimsun: +1
[20:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: Anything _decent_ will surely have a risk element to it.  That said, it is far different if someone credible like J. Ive suggests something risky versus say, yyy individual.
[20:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: Credibility is probably 80% of the battle with getting those folks on board who can seriously alter futures.
[20:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: As it stands now, we have -10%. (Minus ten for the rather hideous legacy -- much the same predicament that Ballmer n' company is faced with.)
[20:49] <_MMA_> Meh. I dont know shit but Im involved and interested. I have no more credibility than he (Mark) does.
[20:50] <troy_s> _MMA_: Well that's just it, even Mark doesn't really have credibility in this sphere.  Worse, the known history isn't helping the cause.
[20:50] <thorwil> _MMA_: just talk more like troy. that will make you seem more credible ;)
[20:50] <_MMA_> lol!
[20:50] <troy_s> thorwil: lol yeah.
[20:50] <_MMA_> ;)
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: It is no small wonder why certain projects will attract the top talent creative folks.  For example, there is a super low budget Terry Gilliam movie about to be shot here... he has some of the top talents in the globe working on it.
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: And they aren't making much money on it either.
[20:53] <troy_s> (Many working for basically free if you consider standard rates.)
[20:55] <_MMA_> Meh. No matter the talent, or project if people don't like the concept people wont help for free. I think thats goes into what thorwil was talking about. I just wonder what will happen to the list once the details are laid out. My bet is silence.
[20:56] <crimsun> well, the trick then it to sham people into thinking the concept is theirs to vote on.
[20:56] <crimsun> is to*
[20:57] <_MMA_> I think we're past pulling that over on people. ;)
[20:59] <crimsun> is anyone packaging WIPs on PPAs?
[20:59] <crimsun> (I don't, frightfully, follow -artwork, but I'd be willing to put that ole PPA to use)
[21:00] <_MMA_> crimsun: From what I know, there will be only 1 upload to the archive for the art this time. I dont know if the PPA would be needed.
[21:00]  * _MMA_ shrugs.
[21:07] <thorwil> good night!
[21:08] <troy_s> crimsun: That will work for a percentage.  The folks who need to be the 'engine' however, will probably smell a bunk concept or a good one without all of that.
[21:09] <troy_s> _MMA_: If the details are rooted in sound and credible notions, I think you will see a good degree of 'contribution'.  If not, it will business as usual.
[21:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: DIY is sound in all ways.  Negotiating what _you_ want with the talent that can get you there is the 'next tough step'.  Perhaps giving feedback on those that have headed down that path could help?  I know Toma and a few others did some sort of 'preliminary' DIY feeling things...
[21:10] <troy_s> I don't honestly know or have a clue on how to foster that.  Its all new ground and territory.
[21:11] <crimsun> do any other communities do it?
[21:12] <troy_s> crimsun: I don't think so.  I think it is all new "Free Design" turf if there is such a thing.
[21:13] <troy_s> crimsun: I suppose you could possibly draw analogies to some art forms that come up in smaller cultural niches (such as first nations art, aboriginal perhaps... etc.?)
[21:14] <troy_s> crimsun: I would cite those smaller niches as they are the only ones that actually manage to convey their goals through their art.  It isn't just 'middle grey rubbish' such as say, Fedora 8.
[23:10] <yharrow> hey guys
[23:10] <yharrow> ping troy_s
[23:17] <somerville32> :)
[23:24] <troy_s> yharrow: Howdy
[23:24] <troy_s> yharrow: How have you been?>
[23:34] <troy_s> yharrow: I'm back around.  Ping me.
[23:36] <yharrow> kk
[23:36] <yharrow> ping troy_s
[23:36] <yharrow> been ok
[23:36] <yharrow> how was your christmas
[23:40] <troy_s> phone
[23:43] <troy_s> yharrow: Sorry... back.
[23:43] <troy_s> yharrow: Good holidays here... yourself?
[23:45] <yharrow> great :D
[23:46] <yharrow> thanks man
[23:46] <yharrow> troy_s:  been meaning to contact you for a while now
[23:46] <troy_s> yharrow: Uh oh. ;)
[23:47] <yharrow> troy_s: are you famliar with the approach the community is taking towards Hardy Heron Design?
[23:47] <troy_s> yharrow: Uh.  There isn't really one.
[23:47] <yharrow> correct
[23:47] <yharrow> The attitude is to create a new look
[23:47] <troy_s> yharrow: Thus far there has been much chatter on the mailing list (healthy to see interest at least)
[23:48] <yharrow> However there is little direction being provided and multiple approaches being used.
[23:48] <troy_s> yharrow: That said, all of this depends on sabdfl and his acknowledged voice kww.ii.
[23:48] <troy_s> yharrow: There has been a 'wait until information' state for a while now.
[23:48] <troy_s> yharrow: You can see what has been established on the wiki under Ken's guideance (Wimer -- not the other guy)
[23:49] <yharrow> I think it's arguable that Kww.ii. is sabdfls acknowledged voice despite the fact that he has been chosen to provide design for previous versions of the operating system.
[23:49]  * _MMA_ must chime in and say that the "new look" (whatever it is) is really set to happen for +1
[23:49] <yharrow> Hardy +1?
[23:49] <_MMA_> yes
[23:50] <yharrow> oh
[23:50] <yharrow> from where did you garner this information?
[23:50] <_MMA_> yharrow: kwwii is more of a puppet actually.
[23:50] <troy_s> yharrow: Well Mark will certainly provide his rather limited directed voice through Ken.  That said, he used to read the mailing list.  He doesn't any more (as can be expected as he is growing ever more busy etc.)
[23:50] <_MMA_> yharrow: The ML and talking here with kwwii.
[23:51] <yharrow> ok
[23:51] <troy_s> yharrow: It is pretty easy to see there is zero time to do much between now and Hardy.  Hardy +1 will have its own set of issues if / when / etc. documentation comes.
[23:51] <yharrow> What is the point of the design team?
[23:51] <troy_s> yharrow: As I have said before and again:  There isn't one.
[23:51] <yharrow> That's lame
[23:52] <_MMA_> yharrow: The "team" will be whoever works once the design direction is fleshed out.
[23:52] <troy_s> yharrow: There never will be until there is reason.  That might come from 1) Epiphany.  2) Failure.  3) Community pressure.  4) Independent Production (Desire to use something dev'd by community)
[23:52] <troy_s> yharrow: Not really lame.  It is entirely within Mark's rights.  I support the decision.
[23:52] <yharrow> Somebody needs to take control of Ubuntu's design team and lead it down a definite path. The team seems to be in a state of disarray the effects of which are evident through ubuntu's current design.
[23:53] <troy_s> yharrow: Not yet.
[23:53] <troy_s> yharrow: There is no team nor a need.  There is no reason to have one.
[23:53] <yharrow> ok
[23:53] <troy_s> yharrow: Further, Mark and the top end aren't ready for any sort of clearly outlined design pattern etc.  He will pursue what he is ready for... right now -- which is not much.
[23:54] <yharrow> so we are a group of independent developers working on a common goal
[23:54] <yharrow> ?
[23:54] <troy_s> yharrow: Do you want an estimation?  Probably not even that.  I privately group with a few folks I have met through the mailing list.
[23:55] <troy_s> yharrow:  The flipside is to 1) Cite ridiculously 'identical' themes that have 18 pages of forum support.  2) Produce mocks such ashttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals or 3) Contribute to as much as you can outside of default main.
[23:56] <_MMA_> "yharrow: so we are a group of independent developers working on a common goal" I hope this is the eventual outcome.
[23:56] <troy_s> yharrow: In the end, don't expect much progress.  A few of us were grouped together on Mythbuntu for example, and got trumped by the same identical attitudes (after much bloody wasted time on my part)
[23:57] <troy_s> yharrow: In the end (aside from being the high up issue) the attitudes and like of the 'community' need to change, mature, and get educated.
[23:58] <yharrow> it sounds more like discouragement due to repeated failure to see the fruit of ones work than an acceptance of the current state of affairs.
[23:58] <yharrow> well i mean satisfaction
[23:58] <yharrow> acceptance is a differnt topic altogether
[23:58] <troy_s> yharrow: Hrm... personally you mean?  Or more 'Ubuntucommunity'?
[23:59] <yharrow> I think many people have those feelings.