[00:00] <yharrow> I do not see in all honesty how art differs from code wrting in regard to the idea of collaborating between many professionals to produce a quality result
[00:01] <troy_s> yharrow: Well... it is irrelevant.  I doubt there is much there to evaluate 'good work'.  I am rather feeble, as is much of what I see.
[00:01] <troy_s> yharrow: Agreed.  The problem is that people think "Free Software" means open collaboration.
[00:01] <troy_s> yharrow: And it isn't quite there yet (bzr will help for certain with the branching mechanism)
[00:01] <yharrow> What do you mean by open collaboration? collaboration without guidelines?
[00:02] <_MMA_> "The problem is that people think "Free Software" means open collaboration." Or "needs" to mean.
[00:02] <troy_s> yharrow: We are such a fragile community for the moment (being small, etc.) that it has a lot to do with getting 'support', which means politicking.  Not something I am terribly fond of.
[00:02] <troy_s> _MMA_: True enough.
[00:02] <troy_s> _MMA_: Although the strength most certainly is through alternate contribution -- minor patch here, fix there.  Bzr helps that out 100%.
[00:04] <_MMA_> troy_s: "which means politicking.  Not something I am terribly fond of." I think this is a fundamental point in the relationship you have with kwwii. Something he alone has to consider and as much as he personally agrees with your "lets turn things on its ear" approach, he just cant do.
[00:04] <yharrow> What is to stop those indivduals interested in creating art for ubuntu from banding together to work on a single theme while simaltaneously fleshing out whatever design whim that the sabdfl currently fancies
[00:05]  * _MMA_ needs to dig into BZR a bit more. Olive the GTK front-end is cool also.
[00:05] <troy_s> _MMA_: Bzr and branches is _amazing_ for this sort of thing.  Even 'Free Design' could use it.  (By the way, bzr works great with svg's as they aren't binary and are subject to mods just like source code)
[00:05] <troy_s> yharrow: Uh... probably agreement on direction I suppose.
[00:05] <yharrow> there is undoubtedly strength in numbers and it is my honest opinion that true beauty will be apparent to most.
[00:06] <troy_s> yharrow: _THAT_ failure is solely based on the inability of people to create work.
[00:06] <yharrow> its impossible to work without direction
[00:06] <yharrow> agreed
[00:06] <troy_s> yharrow: Probably disagree on that last statement.
[00:06] <yharrow> oh
[00:06] <yharrow> yes, i said it hesitantly
[00:06] <troy_s> yharrow: Reason being -- in all of my experience the most lauded design / artwork goes through a phase of 'counter - trend'
[00:07] <yharrow> sad but true
[00:07] <troy_s> yharrow: In fact, almost every 'movement' is counter trend.
[00:07] <yharrow> However, there is a threshold
[00:07] <troy_s> yharrow: If it catches on, the avant-garde repeat it over and over until the mainstream commoditizes it.
[00:07] <troy_s> yharrow: At which point it dies.
[00:07] <troy_s> yharrow: Examples might include but aren't limited to:  DIY movement, Expressionism, etc.
[00:08] <yharrow> have you ever met a person who hated every part of natures appearance?
[00:08] <troy_s> yharrow:  Yikes.  A little 'esoteric' there.
[00:08] <yharrow> ever met aperson not awed by the vastness of an ocean or beauty of a sunset
[00:08] <yharrow> my point being
[00:08] <yharrow> that there is a threshold of undeniable beauty
[00:08] <troy_s> yharrow: Probably yes.  Contextual.  Work on the ocean and you hate it.
[00:08] <troy_s> lol
[00:09] <yharrow> lol
[00:09] <troy_s> oil workers probably hate ocean views.
[00:09] <yharrow> that does not mean they were never awed by it
[00:10] <yharrow> the trick is coordinating design to the point of near universal acceptance
[00:10] <yharrow> this requires much foundation , planning, and direction
[00:10] <troy_s> Well... to be frank, I find the plethora of 'just put nice photos' ideas rather dull.  They are
[00:10] <troy_s> very musak feeling.
[00:10] <troy_s> and worse, are extremely difficult to wrap into a real tight overall package.
[00:11] <troy_s> But I could probably flip one way or the other on that... Look at the KDE photos and perhaps you get the idea.
[00:11] <troy_s> They are very 'blah' as it is _only_ the wallpaper out of context.  A nice interface?  Blah out of context.  "Nice" audio?  Again -- out of context -- rather worthless.
[00:15] <troy_s> yharrow: I would think that 'most' people can 'see' the Ubuntu pattern that works as it is now flailing.
[00:15] <troy_s> yharrow: 'Most' mainstreamers tend to key on the idea of Ubuntu being crafted, human, organic.  It isn't visualized as such, and is in fact a mockery of it.
[00:16]  * Toma- steals troy_s's ' button
[00:17] <troy_s> yharrow: The 'errors' in that path lay in going African (too corndoggy from my vantage) or otherwise.  There is much to be said for the cracked earth look that Damian's work cued on via the Elephant skin (although again got botched by making completely monochromatic afterwards.
[00:17] <troy_s> Toma-: lol
[00:17] <Toma-> have you made a mockup yet?
[00:17] <yharrow> What are the chances of a number of design developers from banding together to create design guidelines if anything and forming a sort of revolution?
[00:18] <troy_s> yharrow: That's a random bit of speculation on my part (as is most).  I would hope it is completely random outcome based on execution.
[00:20] <yharrow> I like the idea of creating a design that the community decides to use as its own. many projects gained approval through way of simple demand from end users
[00:20] <yharrow> if there is a demand for the inclusion of a coordinated design that we "as a team" develop then we are already half way there
[00:21] <yharrow> how many specific tasks are there in LP directly relating to explicit design goals
[00:22] <troy_s> yharrow: Hrm... an example might be something such as art versus code.  Code can be incrementally fixed.  Design can too (sort of -- Ubuntu does it _sort_ of with icon blurry etc. bugs)
[00:22] <troy_s> yharrow: The bigger design patterns though require people to really try and fall into the style.  Probably harder.  Tango sort of does it but it has a singular gatewarden in Lapo.
[00:23] <yharrow> hmm
[00:23] <troy_s> yharrow: So you have two things - Quality Control and Desire.  You have the need to hit the bigger vision and then faced with the real fact that you are further reducing your contributors based on aesthetic styles.  If they don't like it, they aren't going to contribute a pinch.
[00:26] <troy_s> yharrow: And yes, having everyone follow along takes someone with near mythic stature to lead it.  Thus far, jimmac is probably the only guy who has gotten there.  Everaldo maybe.
[00:26] <yharrow> there are certain established industry guidelines such as usage of coordinated palettes, similar to the way that there are rules to writing code. the major problem being that there is no known debugger for art
[00:27] <troy_s> yharrow: As Damian said, having a palette is small and minor compared to getting the goal in place first.
[00:27] <troy_s> yharrow: A palette is merely a means to an end, not an end itself.  If I had to bet, when the time comes, there will be a palette but still no goal.
[00:27] <yharrow> what are the top 3 things in your opinion that define a design?
[00:27] <troy_s> yharrow: Egads.  What a question to ask of a buffoon.
[00:28] <yharrow> But it is your opinion that I seek.
[00:29] <_MMA_> yharrow: Send him a email. ;)
[00:29] <troy_s> yharrow: Guest over.  I would start with 1) Audience 2) Goal 3) Process
[00:30] <yharrow> Whom would you consider the Audience of Ubuntu design?
[00:31] <yharrow> or rather
[00:31] <troy_s> yharrow: Wow huge question.  Two sides:  Go with who the audience is already or pick a new one.  Do the first -- make the already using users very happy.  Do the latter, make new users very happy and probably pi*s off the existing base.
[00:31] <yharrow> can you name 3 attributes that every member of the audience shares
[00:31] <troy_s> yharrow: No.
[00:31] <troy_s> yharrow: Universals are the words of snake-oil salesmen.
[00:31] <yharrow> hmm
[00:32] <troy_s> yharrow: All of art / design / and well according to Einstein _everything_ is relative.
[00:32] <yharrow> what is design relative to?
[00:33] <troy_s> yharrow: The end user.  Mired in contemporary trends and context of course.
[00:34] <yharrow> What is your opinion of modern design? the idea of beauty in functionality
[00:34] <yharrow> function*
[00:35] <yharrow> my idea is to take a very practical approach to UI design and theming
[00:35] <troy_s> yharrow: Gosh.  This feels like Barbra Walters.  Uh... for me, aesthetics is a 'function' in that rather foolish 'form vs. function' debate from the Swiss Style.
[00:35] <troy_s> yharrow: Practical is relative.  You can't escape it.  Again, as with math, you need to define your perspective.  Are you on the train throwing the ball or on the sideline?
[00:35] <yharrow> I'm trying to anchor onto something that we can work from
[00:35] <troy_s> lol
[00:35] <troy_s> yharrow: Start with your audience.
[00:36] <troy_s> yharrow: If not, look to those mocks and the countless cyclical 'this is better' 'that is ugly' additions.
[00:36] <yharrow> ok
[00:36] <yharrow> here is the problem
[00:36] <yharrow> the audience is in fact diverse.
[00:37] <yharrow> I believe that no matter what some ppl will be unsatisfied with the final prodcut
[00:37] <yharrow> product
[00:37] <troy_s> yharrow: So be bold.  Pick one.
[00:37] <_MMA_> Yep.
[00:37] <yharrow> design
[00:37] <troy_s> yharrow: And _YES_
[00:37] <yharrow> the goal is
[00:37] <yharrow> to displease as few ppl as possible
[00:37] <troy_s> yharrow: Accept that.  SOME will hate.
[00:38] <_MMA_> DIY FTW!!
[00:38] <yharrow> lol
[00:38] <_MMA_> ;)
[00:38] <yharrow> so
[00:38] <yharrow> how do we fine what the majority of ppl enjoy in design?
[00:38] <yharrow> the so called "masses"
[00:39] <yharrow> I think the best way is to look around the world we live in
[00:39] <yharrow> of course loads of ppl hate cities
[00:40] <yharrow> but cities are our cultural centers
[00:40] <yharrow> many modern cities share common aspects
[00:40] <yharrow> buildings are similar
[00:41] <troy_s> yharrow: Way way way too complicated.
[00:41] <yharrow> merchandise is similar
[00:41] <yharrow> vehicles are similar
[00:41] <yharrow> why?
[00:41] <yharrow> im being serious
[00:41] <troy_s> yharrow: Contemporary trends and vendor history play a role.  Nearly anything Apple does right now is 'yay hip' even if it is sub optimal.
[00:41] <yharrow> thats my point
[00:41] <yharrow> lol
[00:41] <yharrow> i mean
[00:41] <yharrow> i dunno about vendor history
[00:41] <yharrow> but
[00:42] <yharrow> contemporary trends for sure
[00:42] <yharrow> thats what im getting at
[00:42] <yharrow> another thing we need to accept is that our design will become outdated
[00:43] <yharrow> by its very nature design is in fact relative
[00:43] <yharrow> few things in this world have a persisitent beauty imo
[00:43] <yharrow> persistent*
[00:44] <yharrow> does that make sense?
[00:44] <yharrow> I hope i am not shooting off my mouth here
[00:44] <yharrow> lol
[00:45] <yharrow> anyways
[00:45] <yharrow> im done ranting
[00:46] <yharrow> gonna go do some things
[00:46] <yharrow> bye ppl
[00:58]  * _MMA_ wonders if he will be one who just spouts off or helps later.
[00:58] <_MMA_> he=yharrow
[11:32] <thorwil> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes
[11:39] <Toma-> lol @ notepad 'screenshot' :D