ubot3Factoid sigh not found00:00
ompaulLjL, the joke is dead, long live the joke00:01
ompaultoday is walk like a penguin day kinda00:01
ubotuI'm alive!00:01
naliothardchoille: forgive my brain, i can't keep up sometimes00:02
ardchoilleNo problem :)00:02
=== LongPoin1yStick is now known as LongPointyStick
LjLwii, i'm not in the mood really, go away01:28
PriceChildMadpilot, the person who just joined is more commonly known as wii01:31
Hobbseeand is not getting unbanned, no matter what he says.01:33
Madpilotah, one of those.01:34
stdinhmm, he is in #ubuntu01:44
stdinonly problem with a host ban is he has a dynamic IP, only static part is AMarigot*.abo.wanadoo.fr01:50
Hobbseethat's how he got in anyway01:51
LjLyeah who cares01:51
Madpilotwe could ban the entire IP range, but that's... extreme01:52
Madpilotor just ban *!*@*.fr01:52
ardchoilleWas he originally banned n #ubuntu and now he's back because of a dynamic IP?01:52
ardchoilleCoudln't that be seen as ban evasion?01:53
Madpilotand he's evidently nick-hopping as well. Meh.01:53
stdinwell, he was originally banned in #k then everywhere else too01:53
LjLhe's an old troll. don't worry about him.01:53
=== stdin_ is now known as stdin
ubotuFloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit)03:11
euskadigot a question, i'd like to know how can I simulate a webcam on ubuntu to use msn messenger and send a video instead of a real webcam ?03:15
disasterpieceneed to be tested?03:15
euskadi? what do you mean by tested03:16
elkbuntueuskadi, this isnt a support channel03:16
euskadithis is a channel for what ?03:16
elkbuntueuskadi, this is a communication channel for operators03:17
euskadiwhy when i write : /j #ubuntu03:17
euskadiim in #ubuntu-ops03:17
pleia2euskadi: you'e been redirected here because of your ident, it's not acceptable in #ubuntu03:17
disasterpiecei see03:17
pleia2change it and reconnect03:17
disasterpiecewhat shall i change it to?03:17
pleia2disasterpiece: not you :)03:17
disasterpiecei've been directed here too03:18
johnficcaI can't get onto #ubuntu03:18
disasterpiecesaying my router has a bug03:18
pleia2disasterpiece: someone needs to test you and let you back in, I can't, sorry03:18
johnficcayeah me too03:18
elkbuntudisasterpiece, johnficca, did you read the topic and follow the instructions?03:18
disasterpiecesure did03:18
johnficcaI changed my port03:18
disasterpieceas did i03:19
elkbuntuthen you need to wait for someone to test your connection03:19
johnficcaok then03:19
disasterpiecewhat's the usual wait-time, if i may ask :P03:19
johnficcatest me oh mighty testers03:20
euskadino one answer me in #ubuntu03:20
elkbuntueuskadi, you need to have patience. this is not a support channel03:21
elkbuntuie, you need to wait more than 60 seconds before giving up03:22
disasterpiecesite says an op needs to test you. seeing as there are none here, i'm guessing it might be a while :)03:22
elkbuntudisasterpiece, i am an op, but i cannot remember all the strings03:22
disasterpieceahhhh ok03:22
disasterpiecewell i'll just chill here then03:22
Madpilotdisasterpiece, DCC test?03:24
elkbuntuMadpilot, him and johnficca03:25
johnficcayes please03:25
Madpilotelkbuntu, you remember if it's safe to do that here? At one point there was a fanged script running03:26
elkbuntuMadpilot, the fanged script is no more, but you can PM them03:26
stdinit's best to /ctcp and /msg it03:27
elkbuntustdin, i think he wanted to test both at once ;)03:27
Madpilotwell, that didn't knock either of you off, so all seems good03:27
stdinI'm not sure if nal.oth has his auto-kline thing going03:28
elkbuntuhe does not03:28
MadpilotDCC SEND 123455677889987654322203:28
elkbuntumaybe he does03:28
stdinguess he dies03:28
stdinerm does ..03:29
elkbuntui thought he didnt :-/03:29
elkbuntunalioth, i thought you killed that thing!!!03:29
stdinnot server-wide, but for the channels he's in03:29
disasterpiecei went afk03:29
disasterpiecehe left ;(03:29
elkbuntudisasterpiece, he got burned for testing you in the open03:29
stdinnote to nalioth: please un-kline Madpilot :)03:30
disasterpieceoh ok03:30
disasterpieceso just wait? :{03:30
stdinyou've been tested, so if there's in #ubuntu op they can unban you03:30
elkbunturob, ping ping ping?03:31
disasterpiecehow do i know if i passed the test?03:31
elkbuntudisasterpiece, you're still connected03:31
disasterpieceso just wait for the unban then?03:31
stdinit's a manual process, give it a sec03:32
disasterpieceno problem03:32
disasterpiecethanks man03:32
disasterpiecemam :)03:33
* stdin looks at the email sitting in his "ubuntu-irc" folder03:34
* Pici snickers03:45
elkbuntuhmm, is it just me or is the ubuntu pastebin the only one up atm?04:13
elkbuntuwell, out of it, .com and .ca04:14
stdin.com has been down for ages afaik04:14
elkbunturight, .ca is timing out for me04:15
ardchoillepastebin.us and pastebin.ca work04:17
ardchoilleWhoa, I hadn't realised pastebin.com was ooc04:17
elkbuntuardchoille, yeah, i know. i was going to go steal the source04:18
ardchoilleGotta move my router. Going to knock out a wall and make this room bigger. Back soon :)04:43
ubotunickrud called the ops in #ubuntu ()04:50
=== tritium_ is now known as tritium
ubotuIn #kubuntu, jameswf-home said: ubotu: beer is good05:36
* Madpilot mutters something unprintable about autokill scripts...06:59
ardchoilleWhat should I do about n=Scotty@unaffiliated/scotty in #kubuntu? He keeps leaving and entering. Grnted it isn't his fault (Connection reset by peer) and I have tried several times to pm him and there's been no reply.07:00
tonyyarussoMadpilot: any news on web site stuff yet?07:02
Madpilottonyyarusso, for Ubuntu Canada? Not a word.07:03
tonyyarussoelmo lies.07:03
tonyyarussoThat's TWICE now that he's promised me he'd look into it the next day07:03
Madpilotorginal email was set to rt on Oct 4th or so, I fired off a "what's going on?' note in early/mid November. Nada, nothing and zip in reply.07:04
* tonyyarusso sighs07:10
naliothardchoille: banforward any disruptive machine fault folks to ##fix_your_connection07:11
naliothardchoille: please be sure they are very disruptive07:11
ardchoillenalioth: Thank you. But, I'm not sure I'd call what he is doing "very disruptive". I was just curious of the proper way to handle it. I'll keep your advice in mind for future reference, though.07:12
tonyyarussonalioth: What sort of folks are usually the ones to provide servers for Freenode?  How would one go about approaching an organization to see if they might be interested?07:13
naliothtonyyarusso: stability07:14
tonyyarussoI was considering the University of Minnesota.  They already have an Ubuntu mirror, so seem a likely candidate.07:16
tonyyarussonalioth: On an unrelated note, what is the current recommended way of securing IRC traffic, if possible?  Obviously when I talk in #ubuntu it's public and logged, but what about messages I send with destinations of PMs or invite-only channels?  Can I encrypt those?07:22
naliothtonyyarusso: nope07:25
naliothonce your data leaves the tor node, it's all public07:25
naliothwell, it's publically sniffable07:26
Amaranthtor give you anonymity, not privacy07:32
tonyyarussoI was basically wondering if there was anything kind of like OTR for IRc.07:34
naliothOTR ?07:36
AmaranthOff The Record07:37
Amaranthit uses gpg to encrypt the conversation07:37
Amaranthof course both sides need to have the pidgin plugin installed07:37
ubotuFloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit)07:37
ubotuFloodBot3 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit)07:37
ubotuFloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit)07:37
Amaranthah, so nice having n.alioth and the bots handle that automagically07:38
Amaranth--- FloodBot2 removes channel operator status from FloodBot307:39
AmaranthLjL: ^07:39
AmaranthFloodBot3 didn't have op, I think it was trying to remove itself07:40
tonyyarussoAmaranth: It's not GPG, actually.07:40
Amaranthtonyyarusso: oh? what is it?07:40
tonyyarussoAmaranth: some other algorithm thingy.  Why it doesn't use GPG for the long-term key I don't know, but the heavy lifting is done by a short term key, so that you can't prove after that fact that the conversation was by a particular person (unlike GPG)07:41
tonyyarussoIf you have 45 minutes to kill, there's a video about it07:43
* tonyyarusso fetches link07:44
AmaranthGood, I was looking for something to put me to sleep07:46
AmaranthWorking on this DOM wrapper around GMarkup sure isn't doing it07:47
tonyyarussohttp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/media/Off-the-Record%20Messaging:%20Useful%20Security%20and%20Privacy%20for%20IM  /  http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/files/ian-goldberg-otr.ogg.torrent  /  http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/files/ian-goldberg-otr.ogg07:47
tonyyarussoSadly, you can't actually see what he writes on the whiteboard, so you get just as much usable content from an audio-only version that would be like 1/10 the download size.07:48
tonyyarussoI have an audio rip around somewhere I think...07:48
Amarantheh, it's already half done downloading07:49
tonyyarussoYe of fast connections :P07:50
tonyyarussoI found it though07:50
tonyyarusso66 MB .ogg, or a 57 MB .mp307:51
tonyyarussoinstead of the 463 MB video07:51
Amaranthwho needs audio when you have 12mbit cable? :P07:52
* tonyyarusso doesn't know his connection speed07:53
MyrttiAmaranth: shuddup07:55
tonyyarusso15.6 Mbit, according to speedtest.net07:55
tonyyarussoYay middle of the night connections07:55
Myrttishuddup allowya07:56
tonyyarussoupload is lame though - 700 kbit, and this is pretty much the fastest time07:56
Amaranthtonyyarusso: dang i've got 12mbit/512kbit08:03
AmaranthI'd go down to 6mbit down if I could get even 1mbit up08:03
* tonyyarusso wishes things were more symmetric; doesn't understand why they're not08:04
naliothsymmetry is expensive08:05
tonyyarussohow come?08:05
AmaranthBecause they know they can charge you for it :P08:07
tonyyarussowhat's the technical reason?08:10
nalioththey don't want to install double the wire, just so you can have symmetry08:11
tonyyarussoBut if I'm not downloading anything, there's a wire sitting there not being used, so why can't it be used for upload instead?08:12
tonyyarussoAFAIK all modern network media supports full duplex, no?08:12
ompaultonyyarusso, xdsl kit costs them a lot more and upstream costs them a lot more because of the methods used to interconnect carriers08:12
AmaranthI know with cable it's just because they allocate more of the 'channels' or whatever for download than upload08:12
tonyyarussoAmaranth: hmm...that's annoying08:13
ompaulagain it is because of the cost at interconnect to other carrier levels that they come up with this method of dealing with it08:18
ompaulI remember in mid 90s reading telco addressed technical mags and they were  on about hdsl and that never really saw the light of day as it would have killed the isdn business08:19
JimmyDeeok so what did I say that was incorrect?08:46
* JimmyDee is feisty feisty feisty08:47
ompaulJimmyDee, that was politics08:48
MyrttiYou've been knowingly tiptoeing on the edge of o4o looooooooong time08:48
ompaul is there anything else?08:48
JimmyDeeI am terribly sorry but the truth of the matter is thats not a religion discussion its a wartime doctrine discussion, and not racially or religiously motivated, because I am a friggin jew, so thbbb08:50
JimmyDeeand the truth of the matter is "yes israel has nukes and thats why they exist"08:50
ompaulhardly humanity methinks08:53
elkbuntume agrees08:54
Myrttimeesa tired08:56
elkbuntuompaul, i can tell he was in troll mood because of "* JimmyDee is feisty feisty feisty"08:57
ompaulwell he has to learn that humanity to others is humanity to others08:58
elkbuntuhow can we help, hangthedj08:59
hangthedjcan someone test me for the DCCExploit?08:59
mc44ompaul: and he's back ;)08:59
ompaulmc44, noted09:00
elkbuntuthere, i figured you didnt want it to be a personal thing :)09:00
ompaulelkbuntu, ya but now let me know09:03
ompaulI will be out of there for a while in the next hour and won't be back for a few hours09:03
elkbunturight, can you kline @97-86-161-*.static.stls.mo.charter.com :)09:04
ompaulnot staff09:05
elkbuntuwell consider he's static, he's probably gone through his ip reserves now anyway09:07
Myrttihe's on #u09:08
mc44clearly it's static for a given value of static09:09
Myrttihe's on #u09:39
elkbuntumc44, some people get multiple ips assigned ;)09:40
elkbuntuMyrtti, he's not banned from there yet afaik09:41
elkbuntuhe's still on 253 so he's likely not going to bother again09:41
Myrttijust noting so ifthe ip's are still neede09:41
hangthedjhi, i had a DCC bug and i upgraded the firmware, how do i get back to #ubuntu?10:08
elkbuntuyou wait for a test10:09
elkbuntuyou seem fine10:11
hangthedjthank you elkbuntu10:12
elkbuntuif ever you're behind a router you dont trust, use the alternative port, ok :)10:12
Tm_TUbotwo: join #kubuntu-fi10:32
=== white_eagle is now known as whiteeagle-mk
=== whiteeagle-mk is now known as white-eagle
elkbuntupleasepleaseplease let me see more like this: <sirAndrew> hello, can someone help me with a problem? i can`t install automatix and i don`t know why11:52
whiteeagle-mkelkbuntu, why?11:52
Myrttiyay! someone *can't* install automatix?11:52
elkbuntuwhiteeagle-mk, because automatix causes a huge proportion of our support queries11:53
=== whiteeagle-mk is now known as white_eagle
elkbuntuwhite_eagle, there is no need for you to be in this channel. please move along12:01
white_eagleI don't bother12:03
jpatrickwhite_eagle: /topic12:03
white_eagleyes sorry12:03
JimmyDeehow do I begin to say I'm sorry?13:05
Tm_Tby telling how sorry you are and about what13:06
Tm_Tand what have you learned ;)13:06
JimmyDeewhat can I say, I bent the o4o rules and I can't take it back. I know I did wrong13:09
JimmyDeeno excuses13:09
JimmyDeeI was a really crappy guest in you guys house13:11
elkbuntuJimmyDee, thanks for the apology. however you do still need to wait through the punishment13:13
JimmyDeegreat, would someone kindly tell me what that is?13:14
elkbuntuJimmyDee, there is no set time, but considering it involved a ban evasion, it'll likely be some days yet13:16
JimmyDeeI ban evaded to attempt to appologize13:17
elkbuntuthat's not an excuse13:18
JimmyDeeno, its not13:18
JimmyDeeits an explaination13:19
elkbuntuJimmyDee, you knew this channel was here, you had no need to break network policy13:19
JimmyDeelike I said before, no excuses, only regrets13:19
Garyhe seemed nice13:24
elkbuntuyeah, kahrytan apologised at one point too13:29
Garyhehe, kahrytan is gonna have such a shock when he gets to hawaii13:30
Garyhis fellow lugmaster is a friend of dorothy :-)13:33
elkbuntuhe's already in hawaii afaik13:38
Garyfriend of dorothy = homosexual :-)13:39
elkbuntuHobbsee, i think it's a discreet way of saying gay ;)13:42
Garyand kahrytan is a mad christian homophobe :p13:42
elkbuntuGary, lawl13:43
Hobbseeyes, if you're a homophobe, then you're going to be a bit put off by someone who's homosexual working with you13:43
Garyand kit cannot wait :-)  (kit is the other lugmaster)13:43
Hobbseehowever, for any random on the street, does it really matter who is gay, or not, assuming you have no wish for romantic attachment with them?13:43
elkbuntuGary, flaming homosexual?13:43
Hobbseewhich is why my "and"13:43
Hobbseeer, "and?"13:44
AndrewB!seen Madpilot13:44
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about seen madpilot - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi13:44
HobbseeAndrewB: /msg seenserv seen13:44
elkbuntuGary, please tell me he's a flaming homosexual. it will be all the more funny13:44
AndrewByeah Hobbsee13:44
GaryHobbsee, true, but it makes a big difference to kahrytan13:44
Garyelkbuntu, more than that :-)13:44
Hobbsee!seen is <reply> The seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen <nick> instead.13:45
Hobbsee!seen is <reply> 'The seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen <nick> instead.'13:45
AndrewBHobbsee: was just to check if he had been unklined re: mail list13:45
Hobbseenow, why doesn't it like that?13:45
Hobbsee!seen is The seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen <nick> instead.13:45
elkbuntuAndrewB, yeah, he was in soon after. someone must have pulled strings or something13:46
GaryAndrewB, yes13:46
Hobbsee!seen is <reply> The seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen nickname instead.13:46
ubotuI'll remember that, Hobbsee13:46
AndrewBCool :)13:46
Hobbseether ewe go.13:46
AndrewBGary: I am in the place of dreams13:46
GaryAndrewB, why?13:50
AndrewBCause I am in work ;)13:50
jussi01OK, quick question, #ubuntustudio-devel is an invite only channel. could we get ubotu in there? (we already have ubotu in #ubuntustudio)13:52
Hobbseejussi01: why is it invite only?13:53
jussi01Hobbsee: Im  not certain of the exact reasoning, but it has always been that way since I have been a member of the dev team.13:55
Hobbseegood way to get people interested, i'm sure.13:55
Hobbseethey been following the MS example, i see.13:56
jussi01The was some issues when it was formed with a split, it may be because of that.13:56
* jussi01 makes note to ask 13:56
elkbuntuit's technically within our jurisdiction anyway13:56
Hobbseeheh, there is that13:57
stdininteresting modes: secret and invite only13:59
jussi01stdin: yeah, its a little weird now I think about it.13:59
jussi01its just always been that way.14:00
elkbuntuvery obfuscated14:00
jussi01Well Ill check it out and let you all know exactly whats going on.14:01
stdinoh, joejaxx is here, so we can ask ;)14:02
jussi01he is? wow :)14:02
stdinmaybe he's shy :p14:04
jussi01stdin: or asleep...14:05
jpatrickmaybe's he's freaked at all you lot charging up at him all the sudden :p14:05
stdin[joejaxx] idle 00:00:04, signon: Fri Dec 28 05:47:56 <- he's not been idle long14:05
elkbuntuattack of the clones?14:10
ubotuastro76 called the ops in #ubuntu (replica)14:33
* PriceChild grins at madpilot's k-lining and finds logs15:33
LjLPriceChild: woh, he was k-lined?15:34
LjLi hope he didn't say...15:34
LjLuhm, that.15:34
PriceChildgrrrrrrrrrrrrr irclogs.ubuntu doesn't have quit messages15:35
LjLwell, i don't have timestamps15:35
LjLbut i have *all* quit messages.15:36
LjLincluding those in unrelated channels.15:36
PriceChild3:28 utc15:36
LjL... but i don't have dates in the timestamps *g*15:36
PriceChildhe got back in though15:36
LjLi figure15:36
LjLah, it was pretty intentional.15:37
LjLah no, it was pretty mean on the part of the aussie.15:37
elkbuntuwell i thought the script *was* retired :-/15:40
LjLelkbuntu: suuure.15:40
LjLyeah, if you search "auto-k-line" on google, we feature prominently15:43
LjLsidlexy again15:43
elkbuntuheh, anyway, bed, night15:45
Tm_Tnight elkbuntu15:47
naliothwhy do you think he was klined?16:08
naliothhe said the magic words here16:08
Tm_Twhat magic words?16:09
crdlbcould you add a note to the !devilspie factoid that compiz users can access builtin window matching functionality in !ccsm ?16:09
jpatrickTm_T: see logs16:10
Tm_Tjpatrick: day?16:13
jpatrickTm_T: 2007/12/2916:14
LjLhe said16:14
LjLDCC SΕND 123455677889987654322216:14
Piciexcept with a normal E16:15
LjLi guess.16:15
Picii guess too16:15
naliothwhat kind of "E" was that?16:16
LjLnalioth: it was no E16:17
Garya magic one16:17
Tm_TLjL: not as cool as DCC 53ND 139823490761234908623416:17
jussi01!1337 | Tm_T16:18
ubotuTm_T: 1337 i5 nigh-inc0mpr3h3n5ib13 70 u5 n00bs, 4nd n0b0dy c4r35 if UR 4 1337 h4x0r. Giv3 i7 4 r357.16:18
stdinis it bad that I could read that easily?16:18
Tm_TI can't read that at all16:19
Picileet is nigh-incomprehensible to us noobs, and nobody cares if your a leet haxor give it a rest.16:20
ardchoilleI like that one.16:21
Tm_TPici: thanks, now I know16:21
naliothanyone seen that romney spammer within the last couple hours?16:21
tomawyou're the only person to have set off my hilight today16:21
ardchoilletomaw: You hilight on "leet haxor" ?16:22
Tm_Tardchoille: no, prolly 1337 h4x0r16:23
Tm_Twhatever that is16:24
Tm_Tsome of you youngs might exlain to me some day when I'm awaken16:24
ardchoilleYes, we old folks need to keep up with the times.16:25
Tm_Tardchoille: son, don't even try16:27
* ardchoille will be 44 in 5 days16:29
Tm_Tardchoille: aahh, enjoy your youth :))16:30
naliothardchoille: do you live in a cryogenic chamber?16:30
* nalioth runs16:30
Tm_Tnalioth: I do, at times16:31
ardchoillenalioth: No16:31
ardchoillenalioth: I'm so old it took me a few mins to get that.16:32
Tm_Tardchoille: it's funny when in some web service, incl forums, you try to find your birth year from dropdown list and it isn't there16:32
ardchoilleOh my16:32
ardchoilleTm_T: And I thought I was old16:32
LjLPici, come to -bots and get prepared for some pretty heaving coding :P16:32
jpatrickTm_T: what do you think of osx5 on #kubuntu?16:37
LjLwhat about him?16:38
MezI return16:38
jpatrickjoin, leave, join, leave16:39
Tm_Tjpatrick: often?16:39
jpatrickTm_T: i think it's the first time16:39
Tm_Tjpatrick: then its ok16:39
Tm_Tjpatrick: if he does it more than 10 times in short time, try poke16:39
Tm_Tif still no luck, ask here :)16:41
joejaxxdoes ubotu log the channels it is in ?16:53
joejaxxlog as in chat logs16:54
jpatrickjoejaxx: irclogs.ubuntu.com16:54
joejaxxso is that a yes? or a no :P16:56
joejaxxthat site does not say if the ubotu bot itself does that :P16:56
LjLjoejaxx: no16:57
ardchoilleI thought it was ubuntulog16:57
joejaxxsee the confusion?16:57
joejaxxthat is why i asked :D16:57
joejaxxLjL: do you know what generates those logs? :)16:59
LjLlocobots for loco channels16:59
ardchoilleHow are some *buntu channels getting logged to http://ircarchive.info/ ? Is that from the irseek.com folks?17:13
PriceChildardchoille, check the dates17:16
ardchoillePriceChild: Ah, seems to have stopped in May17:17
HS^Hello I have a question about ubuntu and how to install from source so it shows up in Apt / package manager. But im banned from #ubuntu,  i cant remember what for. Probably I talked off topic. How long is this ban?17:44
LjLHS^, i'd say come back in january17:45
HS^oh. ok17:45
HS^my question is this:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=652974   , but no one responds to it yet.17:46
jpatrickanyone know why he was banned?^^18:12
LjLhe was banned from -offtopic because of being a troll18:13
LjLand he was banned from #ubuntu because of trolling about his ban in -offtopic, and swearing18:13
jpatrickhmm, just checking cos he's on #kubuntu-devel but it looks okay18:13
naliothjpatrick: be watchful18:14
jpatricknalioth: even then there's not much I can do18:14
jpatrickbut I will18:14
naliothah   :|18:14
jpatrickwhat's the policy for people who /away verbosily?18:26
ubotuYou should avoid changing your nick in a busy channel like #ubuntu - it causes unrequired scrolling which is unfair on new users. The same goes for using noisy away messages : use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently - See also !Guidelines18:26
LjLand i usually kick if "verbosely" means a /me or other privmsg18:27
LjLif it just means a nick change, i usually don't kick18:27
jpatrickCos lots of people do it on the spanish channels, and I've started to /remove it's so common18:28
LjLjpatrick: there is a lengthy explanation about it in the guidelines18:28
Myrttithat about says it all18:36
jpatrickMyrtti: too bad the guy came back to flame me18:36
Myrtti"sucks to be him"18:36
Myrttijpatrick: there's plenty of reasons why public aways suck18:37
jpatrickI'm trying to explain that18:37
Myrttiif they're too dense to get them, they need to be educated18:37
Myrttiby force, if necessary :-P18:38
ardchoilleIn https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines there is a link to http://bugbot.ubuntulinux.nl/bans.cgi but that url returns: Unknown host bugbot.ubuntulinux.nl18:39
* jpatrick goes to translate guideslines to spanish18:40
LjLof course, doing ctrl+a in konqueror 4's URL box selects the *document* instead of the url... *sigh*18:40
LjLardchoille: outdated URL18:41
ardchoilleLjL: Mind if I remove that url?18:42
LjLardchoille: i fixed it already18:42
ardchoilleLjL: You're quick :)18:42
ubotuYou should avoid changing your nick in a busy channel like #ubuntu - it causes unrequired scrolling which is unfair on new users. The same goes for using noisy away messages : use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently - See also !Guidelines19:04
ompaulohh someone killed my version of reality19:04
* ompaul wonders who and says nothing19:04
ubotuThe people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines19:25
jpatrick^^the link in section 11 "When helping: be helpful" has a bad link it should be http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi19:26
ompaulifireball, what do you wish to talk about?19:40
ifireballompaul: well, I'm being polite and reading the wiki 1st, but lets cut to the chase19:41
ifireballI want to add a factoid to ubotu19:41
ompaulstate it to the bot or state it here19:41
ompaulin the former case it gets echoed here19:42
ompaulin the latter ditto :)19:42
ifireballI see, well, let me sort it out 1st19:42
ompauljust say it we have skills at making them work if they are suitable19:43
ompauloften they get a few iterations19:43
ubotuIn ubotu, a514 said: what is ubuntu19:44
ifireballsudoedit: Use sudoedit in order to edit root-accessible rather then "sudo nano <file>" use "sudoedit <file>" or "VISUAL=gedit sudoedit <file>" to run a graphical editor; You may want to set VISUAL in your .profile19:45
ifireballalso should say something bad about running "gksudo gedit" because it roots the whole editor19:46
ifireballI'm too tired, already wrote one howto today...19:47
ikoniawhat is the factoid for the cd-repo-mirror technique ?19:48
ikoniasearching the factoid db now, but I can't see anything19:49
naliothifireball: why is "gksudo gedit" bad?19:51
ifireballnalioth: because you're running the HUGE HUGE Gedit as soot, as well as the whole GTK and a bunch of other libraries19:52
ifireballnalioth: also if you change settings they get saved to root's home rather then your own19:52
naliothifireball: isn't that the point?19:53
naliothifireball: are you perhaps confusing "sudo gedit" as the "bad option" ?19:53
ifireballnalioth: no, the point is editing the file, not running the editor19:53
ompaulwhich screws the user19:53
naliothi'm completely lost19:53
ompaulnalioth, na I think we are all lost here19:53
naliothi would 'gksudo gedit' to edit stuff that _belongs_ to root/system19:53
ompaulwell I would sudo nano it but that is just me19:54
naliothwhy would anyone "gksudo gedit" to edit their own data ?19:54
ikonianalioth: I beleive he's saying that the editor and the whole system assoticated to the editor will be launched as root19:54
naliothompaul: don't distract us, this is about "gedit" and "gksudo"19:54
ikonianalioth: therefore all the settings will be in ~/. for root19:54
naliothikonia: and?19:54
Myrttilike .nano_history19:54
ompaulnalioth, ikonia is concurring with you as far as I can see19:55
ikonianalioth: yes, I'm saying that is what the complaint is, although I don't see it as a problem, rather expected behaviour19:55
Myrttieverytime I nowadays launch it, it warns me about .nano_history permissions19:55
ifireballthe right way to edit a system file is the way sudoedit and sudo -e do it, is to copy the file out somewhere, chmod it, edit, chmod and copy back, that way its lock-safe and you do the minimal steps as root19:55
naliothifireball: Ubuntu is meant to be 'user friendly'19:56
ikoniaifireball: as I understand it your complaining as a whole toolset is being laucnhed as the root user.19:56
ifireballnalioth: indeed it is, that is why you have the soduedit command to do the heavy lifting19:56
naliothifireball: well, i'm probably ign'rnt, but i've never heard of "sudoedit"19:57
ifireballikonia: you may not care for that, but there is the issue of side effects like the dotfiles19:57
naliothi've also never had a single problem "gksudo gedit" or "kdesu kate" and editing files19:57
ompaulifireball, now that is best practice and, in certain cases the mv command should be removed from systems but things are risk free enough to use it today on a home machine19:58
ifireballnalioth: which is why I want the factoid ;) I realised most other ppl on the channel didn't either19:58
ikoniaifireball: I didn't say I didn't care.19:58
ifireballyes, but I know this is a hard sell, since typically nothing bad happens19:59
ompaulifireball, I concur with you, but I wonder if we are not being too protective, I'll put it in some language that it is a better practice19:59
ikoniait's not a hard sell, I was just trying to clarify what the actual issue was20:00
ifireballsomehow I feel that one of the channel's goals should be promoting better practices20:00
* MenZa pokes elkbuntu.20:00
ompaulifireball, fair point /me grabs shins in pain20:00
ifireballikonia: somehow, having run gksud gedit, then did file open and noticing all the favorites are not there, etc, seems really not elegant to me20:01
ifireballikonia: also, if the user changed the theme the root gedit will look VERY different, ugly...20:01
ikoniaifireball: I appriciate the differences, I personally don't have a problem due to my lack of graphical tools.20:02
ifireballwell, I hear you, but I'd rather the new ppl have as smooth experience as possible...20:03
ikoniano, I don't have an issue with what you said, I was just trying to clear up the actual statment20:03
ompaulifireball, I have to cook some words cos there is no way I would use the ones you have there20:03
ikoniabadley it seems.20:03
* nalioth has never heard of "sudoedit"20:04
ompaulman -k sudo will tell you about it and a few others20:04
ifireballompaul: no problem, I just brain-dumped, my writing skills went downhill it seems...20:04
ifireballactually its right in man sudo...20:05
LjLifireball, i was on dinner so i've missed some of this. i must admit i didn't know about sudoedit... however there's one possible little complication i can think of20:06
ubotuIf you need to run graphical applications as root, use « gksudo », as it will set up the environment more appropriately. Never just use "sudo"! (See http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/graphicalsudo to know why)20:06
ifireballLjL: shoot20:07
LjLso, if the "never use sudo" reasons apply to sudoedit as well, and i think they do, wouldn't that mean that users couldn't use gedit/kate/other graphical editors, but would be forced to use nano or whatever?20:07
LjLi think they're pretty glad to be able to use the graphical ones, mostly20:07
ifireballLjL: no20:07
ifireballbecause of the way sudoedit works, it runs the editor with the user's permissions, so you can use a graphical one20:08
ifireballtry it20:08
ifireballVISUAL=gedit sudoedit /etc/group20:08
naliothbut i think you are missing another point20:09
ifireballwhats that?20:09
naliothi only use "gksudo gedit" to edit system files, why do i need it opened with my permissions?20:09
ifireballnalioth: so that if you keep the editor open, or use file->open or anything else, you can't hose your system by mistake20:10
naliothifireball: i guess i don't get it.20:10
naliothi don't leave any "root enabled" graphical apps open20:10
ifireballnalioth: please read what sudo -e does20:10
naliothi open, edit the file, and close20:10
LjLnalioth, "you" are not everyone20:11
LjL"you" probably would use root only when necessary even if you had no sudo20:11
naliothwhich is why i see a different theme for "root" apps as a reminder to users20:11
LjLanyway wasn't there an "Edit text file as root" menu entry or something like that in Ubuntu?20:11
ompaulpopey, have you thoughts on this?20:13
ifireballLjL: maybe, that isn't good too, i.e. there is also "run nautilus as root" somewhere, those are all less then optimal but necessary things20:13
ompaulifireball, I really hope there is not run nautilus as root20:14
ifireball(don't forget that synaptic runs as root too)20:14
LjLi recall there is... though i'm on Kubuntu so don't really know20:14
LjLifireball: well synaptic definitely has to20:14
ompaulDaviey, thoughts?20:14
ifireballLjL: not really, it could as for password just when clicking apply, see how aptitude handles it20:15
Davieyompaul: I have used nautilus as root before.. but it's not something i think should be bundled20:15
LjLifireball: uhm, how does aptitude handle it?20:15
Davieyompaul: heck, I bet most have run X as root at some point20:16
ifireballLjL: you can run it as a normal user, and it lets you do the selection, and asks for root password only when you type "g" to apply the changes20:16
Davieymeh, who uses the ncurses of aptitude anyway...20:17
ompaulDaviey, shh that was before theo caught me and gave me a good trashing :)20:17
LjLifireball: i don't normally run aptitude in interactive mode... how does it achieve that? does it make a system call to escalate privileges?20:17
ifireballLjL: well, if you really go into detail, they didn't quite get it right yet, it runs another instance of itself with sudo or su20:19
Davieyremember aptitude is just a wrapper... no system calls needed20:19
LjLifireball: i thought they would. ugly. honestly i think elegance (i.e. just running as root) is better in that case20:19
LjLDaviey: it's what?20:19
ifireballLjL: well, it could very easily just "sudo apt" in the background, I suppose this is a developer compromise somewhere20:20
popeyompaul: hmm?20:21
ifireballI remember seeing ppl discussing pushing such functionality into synaptic in the +1 wiki somewhere20:21
LjLifireball: anyway back to the sudoedit issue... given there is "Run X as root" menu entries *by default* in Ubuntu (unless we're all wrong), "gksudo gedit" really cannot be that bad. sudoedit may have its merits, but what i'm afraid is users would be kind of confused by a command line such as "EDITOR=gedit sudoedit blah"... most novices would probably be better off understanding how (gk|kde)sudo are to be used in a general way20:21
LjLthe fact that there need to be gksudo and kdesu alone is bad enough imo20:21
LjLifireball, that would only work if there *is* sudo though20:22
DavieyLjL: i mean, it's just a wrapper for dpkg20:22
LjLDaviey: not really20:22
Davieyerr, yes it is20:22
Davieygrep the source20:22
ompaulpopey, this debate20:22
LjLDaviey: it needs to touch the APT database, and that definitely cannot be done as non-route20:22
popeyompaul: reading20:22
ubotuAPT is the Advanced Package Tool, which together with dpkg forms the basic Ubuntu package management toolkit. Short apt-get manual: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto - Also see !Synaptic (Gnome) or !Adept (KDE)20:22
DavieyLjL: Are you being serious?20:23
LjLDaviey: saying that an APT frontend is a "wrapper to dpkg" seems to me like forgetting about the entire APT framework20:23
LjLDaviey: pretty much20:23
DavieyLjL: aptitude makes direct references to dpkg!20:23
LjLDaviey: uhm, yeah, and?20:23
LjLDaviey: it also modified /var/cache/apt/archives, doesn't it? or have i been dreaming all along?20:24
LjL(just an example, it modifies several other APT data structures)20:24
DavieyLjL: and your point?20:24
LjLDaviey: my point is that it needs root to do such things, duh20:25
ompaula sideline gents the point is how to enhance or should this be enhanced20:25
ubotusudoedit is available to edit system files with the privileges of root, it is a console based application20:25
DavieyLjL: I never said otherwise, duh20:25
LjLompaul: re: last thing i said to ifireball20:25
LjLDaviey: [21:20:45] <ifireball> LjL: well, it could very easily just "sudo apt" in the background, I suppose this is a developer compromise somewhere [21:22:19] <Daviey> LjL: i mean, it's just a wrapper for dpkg20:26
LjLwhat the heck is "sudo apt" by the way, sudo apt what20:26
LjLAPT was a library last i checked20:26
ifireballompaul: I do believe we need to mention VISUAL or EDITOR somehow20:26
DavieyLjL: Should i also post the whole log where there is _no_ mention of me saying that aptitude shouldn't require root?20:26
LjLDaviey: little summary - ifireball was saying that aptitude only does root things when it really needs to. i asked how (since a user-mode program cannot easily become a root-mode program), and i suggested it may use system calls. you said system calls are not needed because it's just a wrapper to dpkg.20:27
LjLand that plainly makes no sense i'm afraid20:27
ompaulifireball, I am very uncomfortable with that at the moment ergo I asked pop^ey for his take on what we are saying the man with the best eyebrows in the whole debian  /  ubuntu scheme of things :)20:27
LjLbecause even if it somehow could start dpkg as root without using "su" or "sudo" kludges20:27
LjLit would still need root for the rest of the stuff20:28
LjLwhich can *not* be achieved by just sudoing something20:28
* ompaul swerves back ontopic20:28
DavieyHere is one example of how aptitude gains root,  sucmd="/bin/su -c \"/usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure '%s'\"";20:28
ompaulifireball, you know what would be useful here, and today is not the day for it cos it needs a wiki page20:29
ifireballompaul: I'm not following you20:30
LjLDaviey: which is ugly as i said. still how does it do stuff in /var/cache/apt/archives? uses shell commands and "su"s each of them? that's probably what it does at the end of the day, but then again that's entirely ugly. and still aptitude is not "just a wrapper to dpkg" in any sense of the expression "just a wrapper"20:30
LjLi *hope* aptitude uses libapt in any case20:30
LjLi really do20:30
ompaulifireball, to tag onto the back end of that factoid a url that says how VISUAL and so forth can be set - if we are going change how we help people we should at least have full docs on the ubuntu wiki to explain the full detail of what they can modify20:30
Davieyokay, i agree it's less of a wrapper than wajig - but it does call dpkg directly, not using something like libdpkg, so therefore wraps commands20:31
ompaulifireball, no point in asking a user to do or consider something if they never ever saw this stuff or a concept like it before20:31
ifireballompaul: so why is today not good for that?20:31
ompaulyou are tired and I am also :)20:32
ifireballompaul: :)20:32
ompaulit is 8:30pm and I am shattered20:32
ompaulbut I'll do irc for a couple of hours yet20:32
ifireballompaul: for now I was just thinking of having the "magic command" on the factoid so you can "|" it at ppl helping ppl...20:33
ompaulifireball, explaining environments in simple english is not my forte at this time20:33
ifireballompaul: I hear ya20:33
LjLi dunno, i'd lean on recommending gksudo gedit on the simple merit of being a plain example of using and not using sudo and derivatives20:33
LjLsudoedit might be safer in theory, but what most novice ubuntu users need to learn is... well, what sudo is for a start20:33
ompaulLjL, +1 however we need to have it for say our server users etc20:34
LjLifireball: but the magic command is a bit too magic to my eyes20:34
ifireballLjL: I dislike that on the simple grounds that gksudo is a #%# hack around the whole X security system20:34
LjLifireball: *shrug*, it's what we have though20:34
ompaulifireball, and sgi and compiz are a hack on your freedom but we live with it :)20:34
ompauland lets not go there I am about to break X in new and interesting ways (gulp)20:35
LjLi don't know anyway, i'm generally all for recommending best practices20:35
LjLi just feel this one is a little counter-productive on users' understanding of things20:36
ifireballwell, we can begin by having a factoid to teach ppl what sudoedit can do20:36
LjLmaking them more confused than they were before, resuting in their using sudo in even worse situations20:36
ompaulpopey, just for fun glx will not be in the next gnewsense unless we can get sgi to do a new licence for everyone20:36
ifireballeven if not the most novice users, the more advanced ones20:36
* ompaul gulps20:36
popeyoh dear20:37
ompaulifireball, but for a novice to become advanced they must have the same advantage as the advanced i.e. access to good information on what they are doing20:37
ompaulpopey, aye20:37
ompaulpopey,  but we really don't have anywhere to turn, we were called on it by Theo De Raadt so we gotta do it20:38
LjL!no sudoedit is <reply> To edit files with !superuser access using the user's standard editor (as set in the EDITOR !shell variable) and its normal configuration, the command « sudoedit <filename> » is available. It creates a local copy of the file, and runs the editor with the user's permissions.20:38
ubotuI'll remember that LjL20:38
ifireballLjL: great wording20:39
ompaulifireball, as I said several iterations20:39
ifireballwell, its not clear that GUI editors also count here, but maybe I should just try to patch VISUAL=gedit into the default .provile in +1...20:42
LjLifireball: VISUAL is intended to be the variable containing the default GUI editor?20:44
ifireballLjL: I think so20:44
LjLifireball: though keep in mind just putting VISUAL=gedit like that wouldn't be very fair to kubuntu and xubuntu users20:44
ompaulifireball, which is why I wanted a URL to point to20:45
ifireballyes yes yes, to tired for details of course it should be something managed by /etc/alternatives with maybe /etc/editor.d and fallbacks and everything20:45
ifireballat this point I can script that faster then explain in english....20:46
LjLifireball: there is already an "editor" alternative, but it only has console editors20:46
ifireballLjL: well, adding x-editor is simple enough20:47
LjLwondering if there's already something like that20:47
ifireballnot on my box20:47
ifireballLjL: another option: have gnome and kde session startup set it up20:49
ifireball... and xfce, and enlightenment, and...20:50
LjLifireball: well they could all do the same20:51
ifireballwell, we're OT, and my thoughts are a mess, I suppose I'll bug everyone more tomorrow...20:53
LjLifireball: well yes we're OT as far as implementation details go. it's perfectly IT as far as what should be recommended on #ubuntu goes though20:53
ifireballLjL: I know, but at this point I'm much more likely to bable BS then say something intelligent20:54
ifireballLjL: ompaul is right that we should maybe wiki it properly first20:55
LjLyep, that can't be a bad thing20:55
ompaulLjL, pm20:55
ubotucrushin_ called the ops in #ubuntu ()21:54
=== crd1b is now known as crdlb
ompaulPumperni1kle, can we help you?23:08
ompaulhave fun23:50

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