[00:00] CheGuevara: possibly, but certainly not for hardy [00:00] mhb: I vote the other way around... or rather in another way :) [00:00] well yeah [00:00] Jucato: why so? [00:00] Jucato: one of my many reflections on the current package management is that for advanced uses, apt-get is the superior solution [00:01] No, I don't agree (Athough I am not a very advanced user, but...) [00:01] eh?adept in qt4? [00:01] I can search in package manager [00:01] Jucato: we just need a tool that a) the most basic user can use to install Firefox b) the power user can use to install/remove any package in the system [00:01] mhb: I've always disagreed with the Manager-Installer split. And I'm not fond of the fact that Installer uses app-install database, which only contains a handful of packages, so you can't see all the available packages [00:02] I usially use synaptic [00:02] mhb: how do i run something as root under gdb? would i have to sudo gdb? [00:02] yuriy: I assume so. [00:02] mhb: what I'm getting at is why we just couldn't improve Adept to be both feature-full (manager) and still simple to use and purty (installer) [00:02] * yuriy $man fakeroot [00:03] Using package manager it is possible to see whole category of packages, and search for a set of packages. For installing a single paackage I always use apt-get [00:03] hm... 2nd day of the year and we're back to work already? :P [00:04] Jucato: because it's not really feasible. [00:04] Jucato: compare the installer with the manager [00:04] wow yuriy!nice! [00:04] mhb: which part isn't feasible? [00:05] Jucato: well, we can have a compromise, but either it won't be as user-friendly as the current installer is or it will lack the "drop tags here" functionality manager has [00:06] I vote to remove the tags [00:06] I do, too. [00:06] mhb: I'm not a fan of the debtags (yet), so I really don't care much about it.. although I can't understand why it couldn't be turned into a feature that can be disabled/enabled (disabled by default) [00:06] who uses tags? [00:06] I would like to see more advanced search [00:06] tags seem useful but i've never actually used them [00:07] theoretically they are useful... but the way they are presented/used in adept manager isn't :D [00:07] what I think is that nobody besides system administrators ever used them [00:07] and system administrators always stick to command line [00:07] so I see it as a feature without a target base [00:07] == bloat [00:07] the thing is, they can be useful, even for normal users, (remember everyone knows about tags because of blogs and stuff). but the interface for them is quite horrid... [00:08] If it was possible to tag a package... [00:08] I've never used anything else besides keyword searching. [00:08] draw up a new one ;) [00:08] tags would be the rough, but more powerful, equivalent of Synaptic's catgoeries [00:08] categories* [00:09] (or Adept Installer's) [00:09] yuriy: the best interface I can think of would be a checkbox list... [00:09] Exactly [00:09] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/AdeptUsability [00:09] I find Adept Installer's categories quite okay usability-wise. [00:09] just the page [00:09] mhb: their fine. no problems there. but we were discussing Manager's tags :) [00:10] s/their/they're/ [00:10] okay then. I guess I better stay quiet because I don't think Manager should stay. [00:10] the wiki page lists some good ideas that sound feasible [00:11] but it also sounds a bit like the installer [00:11] most of the pictures are gone now unfortunately [00:11] * Jucato is of the opinion that the two should be merged anyway... except for the annoying (imho) fact that installer uses a separate app database... [00:11] Jucato: yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. [00:12] Jucato: I wonder whether a checkbox "System packages" which would let Installer display all the possible packages would be the solution [00:12] MaximLevitsky: I'm imagining that maybe one day, users can append tags and descriptions on packages. metadata stuff... [00:13] mhb: that could work, except that the database doesn't contain those packages :) [00:13] yes, bad. [00:13] I'm of the opinion port installer first, paint bike shed later. [00:14] I vote port manager first, because it has the most code that is reused (a.k.a. copy-pasted) among the other adepts... which would make it easier to port the others too :P [00:14] (presuming we'll go the copy-paste route again :D) [00:15] * Jucato prays we will be able to change the class names and filenames too... [00:15] I'm sure we will be. [00:15] yuriy is actually going the right way [00:16] first port without rewriting, then rewrite (and keep it working) [00:16] seeing a file named app.cpp, with an object called "ta", which is an object of a class called "TestApp", which is derived from the main class called "Application", is just.... [00:16] what you go to college to learn to keep track of.. [00:16] ;) [00:17] yuriy: you just made it to my personal hall of fame btw :) [00:19] Jucato: the reused code is all in libadept. it's actually organized pretty well, the only thing that's in manager is defining the toolbars and which views should show up [00:19] OTOH, "installerview" is also part of libadept... [00:19] yuriy: so it uses libadept/ and not adept/ ? [00:20] Jucato: well, it uses adept/ to build libadept, i'm not sure what libadept/ was supposed to be [00:20] yuriy: it's not libadept really that kinda burns my eyes, it's the apps that use it. although class TestApp is in libadept/application.h :D [00:22] Jucato: TestApp is the child of Application [00:22] Jucato: and it's used in manager [00:22] adept/manager/app.cpp [00:22] mhb: I did say that :) [00:23] Jucato: no, you didn't : lthough class TestApp is in libadept/application.h :D [00:23] oh sorry. I meant Application :) [00:23] but I did say that TestApp is derived from Application earlier [00:23] I still think TestApp (manager) should kick the bucket [00:24] but let's paint after more yuriy-awesomeness [00:24] in adept installer, the main class is called "App", also derived from class Application :D [00:25] * Jucato sighs... [00:25] mhb: stuck on the deadlock right now [00:25] why can't I seem to get myself to be as dedicated as yuriy is with Adept? :P [00:25] Jucato: because i'm procrastinating [00:25] for goodness sakes, whaever you take out or put in... make sure Adept can lock versions of packages. [00:26] nosrednaekim: I'd say mhb might suggest that you use apt-get instead :) [00:26] nah...synaptic works fine ;) [00:26] no offense, but I think for mhb, power users *should* only use the command line... we don't deserve to have poweful GUI's :D [00:27] hm.. breakfast sounds about nice right now... [00:27] I'm having one now [00:27] 01:27 am [00:28] Wed Jan 2 08:28:04 PHT 2008 [00:28] :D [00:28] lol [00:28] nosrednaekim: frankly, I don't even know what that is :o) [00:30] nosrednaekim: some people would like to have it all - a simple, fast application that can do everything, is simple enough for the most basic of users and it still could do every crazy thing one would desire, like searching for all ham-radio packages changed in the last 12.5 minutes starting with "spam" [00:30] and they can.... its called the command line ;) [00:31] lol [00:32] nosrednaekim: my compromise suggestion is having one package manager application with which you can install Mozilla Firefox or Pidgin really easily, and if you did a few clicks, you could remove or install any package in the repository. [00:33] on the other hand, if you wanted to do something fairly advanced, like a complex search, you should try the apt-get frontend instead, because it offers far more options and possibilites than any fast and usable GUI app can ever provide. [00:35] one package manager application instead of two makes more sense, because people now don't know which app should they use - they use Adept Manager because the HOWTO advised them to, but they're confused by it as its UI is too complex for them. [00:36] yeah.. [00:36] too bad you just couldn't click and "advanced" button [00:37] nosrednaekim: that's the way I'd go for. Except I'd remove most of the current Adept tagginess, so that only one or two widgets appear with the click of that button [00:38] so the UI doesn't get too messy. [00:38] argh! /me bikeshedding again [00:38] heh [00:39] yuriy: once you get off the awesomeness train, you could write a blog post about what steps are most common when you ported the adept manager [00:39] yuriy: so other people like me have less "hacktivation energy" [00:39] thanks! [00:39] mhb: i'll try [00:40] yuriy: you don't have to, it's just one of Adept's flaws that it is badly documented, so the more insight outsiders (like me) get, the better [00:40] it was my very humble suggestion [00:40] hmm yeah [00:41] * yuriy has been meaning to comment on code when he figures out what it does, but hasn't [00:41] think you could help with this deadlock problem? [00:41] I WANT TAGS!!! [00:42] yuriy: sure, better than learning linear algebra [00:45] yuriy: what's the deadlock you talk about? [00:46] * DaSkreech goes home and will be back to blont :-) [00:46] mhb: if you run adept_manager as root (sudo or fakeroot) it just says deadlock detected... [00:46] won't print out any debug messages or anything [00:49] yuriy: I am afraid I can't reproduce it [00:49] no deadlock at all, it simply starts like it did with the normal user [00:50] and a lot of debug messages, too [00:50] (using sudo) [00:50] hmm [00:51] mhb: what system? i have a dual core so i think it's more likely to see problems [00:51] C2D [00:51] hmm [00:51] amd64. [00:57] mhb: hardy or gutsy? [00:57] hardy [00:57] * yuriy should upgrade [00:58] if you stumble upon anything I can test, let me know. [00:58] since that works for you i think i'll go on to other parts for now [00:59] okies [01:01] bug 174252 [01:01] Launchpad bug 174252 in libungif4 "transition to libgif" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174252 [01:23] Right then [01:23] what did I miss [01:24] I want tags [01:24] don't care if they are behind an advanced option view [01:24] I live by tags [01:25] mhb: by apt-get frontend, you mean the command line right? as in apt-get? [01:26] Ha ha [01:26] Yeah he means dpkg front end [01:26] * Jucato will not try to feel a bit.. um... nvm... [01:27] Hey [01:27] no feeling of bits around here! [01:27] * Jucato will not try to feel a kilobyte... um.. nvm... [01:27] * dasKreech laughs [01:28] Man I wish you guys could work at my workplace [01:28] You'd fit right in [01:29] Jucato: I do. [01:30] ok... [01:30] * Jucato reserves the right to keep quiet now :) [01:32] damn I wanted that right [01:32] Guess I'll just have to blather :) [01:32] spam spam spam spam spam spam Spanish inquisition [01:32] Didn't expect that did ya? [01:35] So in any case the tags thing is far cooler than categories, is more comprehensive is easier to work wit hand requires no maintenance [01:35] So I very much vote for tags [01:40] dasKreech: but what do you think of adept manager's interface for it [01:41] dunno It's very simple to use but not intuitive to figure out [01:41] evening [01:41] hi jjesse_ [01:41] hi jjesse_! [01:41] I'm basically stubborn so I played with it cause it took up so much space I figured I better use it [01:41] hello jussi01 [01:41] doh [01:41] :P [01:41] hello Jucato [01:42] * Jucato has to put jussi01 on his highlight list now.. just to check for misdirected highlights... [01:42] I love it now if you wanted one reason from me why adept beats the skirt off of synaptic debtags would be it [01:42] * dasKreech talks to jussi01 a lot now [01:42] hi jjesse_ [01:43] dasKreech: i was thinking maybe have a column of filters, with 3 columns for want/do not want/don't care that you could check off, all defaulting to don't care [01:44] yuriy: that would be a script? [01:44] I guess. the same tree look? [01:44] cause there are a lot of debtags [01:44] i guess it would be a tree [01:44] script? [01:45] Well it pulls the debtags at runtime doens't it? what ever debtags are in the repo it shows [01:45] * Jucato still votes for a checkbox list... which could be disabled/enabled when wanted, or all defaulting to checked... [01:45] * Jucato realizes he promised to shutup... [01:45] dasKreech: each package has a debtag afaik [01:46] Jucato: I know and adept pulls the debtags from the cloud in the repo right? [01:46] Jucato: debtags [01:46] haven't seen the code for the debtags :) [01:46] reason one it beats categories :) [01:46] me too I tried to grok it [01:46] no go for me [01:47] Jucato: that's kind of what i mean, but a simple checklist isn't quite as powerful [01:47] didn't have enough time [01:47] yuriy: what would we lose? [01:47] do i understand it correctly? a package can have several tags? [01:47] yuriy: what do you mean by not as powerful? [01:47] (oh and not sure... again.. for a very poweful package format... apt/dpkg sure doesn't have much docs floating around...) [01:48] developer docs I mean [01:48] well with the current interface you can have a tag that you want, and a tag that you don't want that'll remove from teh list of packages even if it has the tag that you want? [01:48] interseting everytime i go to update or install i get a segmentation fault [01:49] yuriy: right [01:49] so I can say I want graphics programs and don't want gtk programs and I will get all grpahics programs that are not made in gtk [01:49] * dasKreech laughs [01:49] so if you just have a checkbox that is either checked or not, you lose the ability to not care about a tag [01:49] So I click on this link which opens a streaming video in winamp [01:50] I'm watching then I realise that Vista is trying to get my attention [01:50] I click on it and it says Winamp is trying to access the internet and we have blocked it would you like us to unblock it? [01:50] can't you just uncheck the [ ]gtk tag and it will remove all gtk tagged packages? [01:50] * dasKreech glances over at streaming video [01:50] Ummm sure Vista. I'll allow it [01:51] yuriy: I thought that you wanted checkboxes for each tag [01:51] I did :) [01:51] Jucato: think about it this way: if you have graphics and gtk checked, are you looking for the intersection or the union? [01:51] dasKreech: i did [01:52] yuriy: I guess it will really depend if each package has multiple tags right? :) [01:52] Jucato: well i assumed they did. do they? [01:52] (which, imho, it should... otherwise it sort of defeats the tagging idea...) [01:52] exactly [01:52] Right so you would check I want it on Graphics tag. Browse to gtk tag and click I don't want it [01:52] quick question, i'm getting a seg fault everytime i use apt or aptitude any help? [01:52] dasKreech: so you need 3 options including the starting option of "i don't care" [01:53] yuriy: I thought that's what you said [01:53] jjesse_: from the command line? that's an ouch... :( [01:53] yeah Jucato from the command line [01:53] yuriy: 3 options? [01:53] dasKreech: yeah but i'm just saying a simple checkbox won't do it [01:54] yuriy: if, and only if, each package can have multiple tags, then a checkbox list would do... (although it would be a long list)... [01:54] if not, I guess we can settle for the current debtag setup, hidden/disabled by default, and with better documentation on how to use :P [01:54] yuriy: I'd suggest radio buttons [01:55] wth? that's worse... [01:55] dasKreech: yep that's what i was thinking, but still some details with that to iron out, plus it's pretty messy so i don't know.. [01:55] the problem I have with checkboxes/radio is that you don't get the implied I don't want it effect [01:55] er.. dpeends on what you mean and where I guess [01:55] anyhoo, getting ahead of ourselves [01:55] heh [01:55] I don't want = unchecked, I want = checked [01:56] Jucato: what's the default state? [01:57] we can either: 1) have them all checked, which displays all packages (that's what we want as default right?) 2) or a disabled state, which doesn't activate the debtag filters at all [01:58] Jucato: So assuming we aren't right a tutorial for all of this how does someone go from all checked to saying I want to see all the games? [01:59] for now, a slightly prettier picture: http://www.yktech.us/temp/adeptqt4a.png [01:59] dasKreech: then I'd go for my option 2, which will toggle using debtags on or off [02:00] yuriy: yay! (?) :D [02:00] Jucato: the toolbar works now [02:00] Jucato: I don't get that one either :) [02:00] yuriy: cool! :) [02:00] dasKreech: nvm then :) [02:00] yuriy are you working on adept then? [02:01] I'll just think of another thing [02:01] i'm wokring on the guide right now [02:01] or keep quiet finally [02:01] jjesse_: porting to kde4 actually [02:01] he's [02:01] which shouldn't affect our kde3 guide for it. you go jjesse_! :) [02:01] Jucato: awsesome, have you read the adept for technical content lately? [02:01] you're tha man! [02:01] Jucato: no walk me through the defaults and how you select a single category for inclusion [02:01] jjesse_: just got back from vacation :) [02:01] dasKreech: actually haven't thoought about that much yet [02:01] Jucato: cool [02:02] ok then keep quiet and think about ;-) [02:03] nah... I won't :P [02:04] (Crowds chant) Blont blont blont blont! [02:04] Jeer Ri Jeer Ri Jeer Ri Jeer Ri! [02:05] hm.. I can't even find out how to dispaly a package's debtags! [02:05] in the command line [02:06] nothing is more fun then writing documentation in nano via terminal [02:07] jjesse_: Writing in ed ? [02:07] nano [02:07] no I'm suggesting that ed would be moer fun [02:07] ah [02:07] vim [02:08] vim [02:08] good night folks [02:09] yuriy: it seems like packages can have more than 1 tag. yakuake shows up in both "debtags search x11::terminal" and "debtags search suite::kde" [02:09] as it should [02:09] I think it might in synaptic's categories as well [02:10] but you can' do inverse searches in synaptic [02:10] so it therefore sucks [02:10] there do seem to be too many tags for a single list though [02:10] yuriy: Just browse through the ones that adept has under the All tab [02:10] The smart tab is pretty nice but the All tab is where learning goes on [02:11] well that's what i mean, there are too many tags for a simple practical interface [02:11] ok I give up :) [02:11] having the 3 tabs like adept does seems overly complex [02:12] option 3: put all debtag UI into a single place (not 2 separate places as it is now... if possible), hide it by default, then write a doc for it :) [02:12] yuriy: Why? [02:12] The smart tags are pretty neat [02:13] not always accurate but it cuts out a lot of clutter while stepping logically down a chain [02:13] Jucato: It's in 2 places now? [02:13] dasKreech: the tag drop areas are in the middle/top, the tag list is on the right [02:14] (right of the package list) [02:14] Jucato: ah I guess [02:14] so for one, it's not overly intuitive that they are related to each other [02:18] Jucato: yeah putting it all in one place is definitely needed [02:19] yuriy: I really admire your endurance and determination in this :) [02:19] * Jucato just took a few peeks at adept's code and practically gave up in frustration :P [02:19] although what I would have probably wanted to do is start from scratch.. but didn't have enough APT-innards-knowledge... [02:21] jjesse_: ping? [02:23] jjesse_: unping... :) [02:28] does iMCP allow that? [02:29] Hmm google seems pretty Gnome heavy though they seem to prefer KDE stuff for SOC [02:35] So just to check most people's biggest issue with Adept is tags? [02:44] tags, I ignore. I think the refresh speed when searching, especially the search-as-you type can be awkward at times on my slower box [02:44] thats my biggest issue [02:45] having said that I haven't even installed synaptic, and I used to be a big huge fan of it [02:46] in kubuntuforums, the biggest thing I see is the error messges that are rather cryptic for the new users [02:46] Example? [02:46] * claydoh lools.... [02:47] laughs outrageously out loud ? [02:48] * claydoh drools while he looks? [02:48] http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3089993.0;topicseen [02:48] is a recent one, often seen, tho synaptic isn't really better on that one [02:49] claydoh: What's the fix to that one? [02:51] Hobbsee!! [02:51] http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3088656.0 [02:51] How's the brown? [02:51] is another [02:52] dasKreech: use apt is usually the answer [02:52] to see the better error message [02:53] claydoh: Far as I know there is the dpkg --configure -a and dpkg -f install routines [02:53] heya! [02:53] dasKreech: brown? what brown? [02:53] COuld give them a button that does that [02:53] Hobbsee: Gnome? [02:54] but as I say, as a former synaptic fanboi, I now only use adept for my gui package management as the problems are so few [02:54] claydoh: Well for that one I think that we need to find out why Adept crashes and stop it doing that [02:54] dasKreech: http://wedontsleep.org/~sarah/Screenshot.jpg - where's the brown? [02:54] * dasKreech laughs at Hobbsee's URL [02:55] it's not my server :O) [02:55] So why so blue? [02:55] i like the picture? [02:55] How did you upload it that fast? [02:56] it's from a few days ago [02:56] ah [02:56] dasKreech: dec 28, from the date there [02:56] you'll note some kde icons there though :) [02:56] Hobbsee: This doesn't count [02:57] that was from last year! [02:57] dasKreech: yes, and it's only just this year [02:57] Old screenies don't pass muster here :) [02:57] it hasn't changed [02:57] Lookie at KDE4 SVN stuff from this morning is out of date :) [02:57] do you like the glass panels? [02:57] yes [02:57] And the Crystal style Gnome foot [02:58] oh, i changed the icons. [02:58] it now has an ubuntu logo [02:58] * dasKreech paints it blue and puts in gearheads [02:58] You have that wanda fish thing? [02:59] for the moment [02:59] What does it do? [03:00] Been a while since I used Gnome [03:00] it's a fortune thing [03:00] What happened last night can happen again. [03:00] er, fortune cookie thing [03:00] it just sits there [03:00] bah [03:00] Oh right I need to poke Seli [03:01] So maybe Jucato can help but I know people keep saying how Ubuntu is ahead of us. Is there a list anywhere of where Kubuntu outshines Ubuntu? [03:02] and I guess I'm thinking a bit outside of We have KDE so that puts us ahead [03:02] .o0(Though I'd still put that as item 0 on the list) [03:09] Hey Hobbsee [03:10] hi nivek [03:10] This is Scotty, btw. [03:10] Just my new nick. [03:13] dasKreech: i'm really not sure where they get that.... [03:14] nosrednaekim: Get? [03:16] that ubuntu is "better" [03:17] nosrednaekim: use it for a while. you'll see [03:17] I have.... and it annoys me [03:18] but then again.. i've been using KDE for 5 years. [03:18] so GNOME naturally annoys me [03:18] same here, tho its been 6 or so [03:19] gnome is not for me, nothing personal [03:19] so I can't say what is better or worse [03:20] Kubuntu is not as polished, but I'd rather have configurability than polish [03:23] That's the first time I've ever visualized a inverse polish/config chart [03:25] Hobbsee: as the inside spy. What would you say Kubuntu has a step above Ubuntu? [03:26] dasKreech: hmmm. i still prefer the way konversation handles things. [03:26] dasKreech: and kde has an rss feed reader that doesn't suck. [03:26] the way that it splits menus is nice [03:26] lifera is bad? [03:27] http://www.downloadsquad.com/2007/12/30/flipping-the-linux-switch-kde-the-k-desktop-environment/ [03:28] dasKreech: it doen'st seem to handle delete properly [03:29] eh? [03:29] how can you mess up delete? [03:30] remove the article but keep the header? [03:30] delete, then redownload all the feesd at the next update interval [03:30] or delete the header and keep the article? >_< [03:30] Hobbsee: When you say feeds what you mean is all the data from one feed? [03:31] yeah [03:32] That sucks [03:54] Hobbsee: but outside of particular apps [04:03] Hobbsee: do you have your stick handy? I think someone needs to get poked, seriously poked [04:03] * Hobbsee offers nixternal the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ™ [04:03] thank you! [04:03] can jjesse have one too? then him and I can poke the hell out of this dude [04:03] Do you have that scripted? [04:04] nixternal: Which? [04:04] jjesse: maybe I should link him to http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 [04:04] flaccid [04:05] what's he stirring up now? [04:05] nixternal: in #kubuntu [04:05] ? [04:05] nixternal haven't seen that [04:05] in ubuntu-doc [04:07] Hobbsee have you delt a lot wifh flaccid? [04:07] jjesse: somewhat, yes. [04:07] can i borrow the longpointystick of doom and whack him? [04:07] go for it [04:07] can i have a copy of the chatlog? [04:08] nixternal: can you send a copy to Hobbsee [04:08] there, I linked him to the "Poisonous People" video by Google :p [04:08] I could but there would be like a minute missing from when I logged out. [04:09] Hobbsee: the chat log will be up shortly with the rest of the IRC logs :) [04:09] nixternal: :) [04:09] OK, he really has me f'n pissed [04:09] he don't listen [04:09]