[03:21] a loto f the doco on the wiki etc. seems outdated because of gutsy, is there any plan to update it? [03:22] it gets updated when people edit it [03:23] the the doc team do that? [03:23] i mean do the doc team do that? [03:23] flaccid: the docteam can only do so much, you don't need to be part of the doc team to do that. [03:23] not specifically. anyone who can edit th ewiki does [03:23] *the wiki [03:23] kgoetz: hello. and a happy new year [03:23] what do the doc team do then? [03:24] robotgeek: happy new year, and if you celebrate it, i hope you had an enjoyable xmas [03:24] flaccid: write most of the docs in desktop -> help [03:24] maintain help.ubuntu.com [03:24] etc [03:24] cleanup the wiki and so on too [03:24] kgoetz: thanks. and i hope you had a good xmas too [03:24] it seems all over the place [03:25] and a lot of duplication [03:25] robotgeek: i did, thank you. [03:25] how do you get to desktop -> help? [03:26] * kgoetz has a "Desktop" menu (next to apps+places). perhaps its called something different in ubuntu? [03:26] im on kubuntu [03:26] ah right. then its somewhere else again *looks at robotgeek *? [03:26] there doesn't seem to be a dedicated kubuntu-doc project to make kubuntu specific doc so users don't have to go through gnome stuff [03:26] damn, i use kubuntu too :) [03:27] ;) [03:27] flaccid: K-Menu-> Help [03:28] flaccid: having separate kubuntu docs would lead to more duplication, and a pain to manage. the docteam is usually short staffed. [03:28] * robotgeek has been guilty of not putting in any work for the last year [03:28] the problem is nobody goes to kmenu -> help or use it and we can't pass weblinks to people in #kubuntu to ref it [03:29] and yeah its yet another source of different documentation [03:29] its not really accessible by normal users to search and find the actual help they need [03:30] kubuntu docs are done right now by nixternal and myself [03:30] as part of ubuntu0doc team [03:30] yeah and i don't know of anybody that uses these docs or knows about em.. [03:30] wasnt help.u.c going to be html generated from the docbook? [03:30] the TOC is pretty wile in kde help center.. [03:31] wild i mean [03:31] kgoetz: i thought at one time it should be [03:31] flaccid: nixternal did the table of contents [03:31] i think you guys could be working on something that nobody uses [03:31] the ubuntu docs setup isnt perfect, i'm just not sure i understand it well enough to offer improvements :/ [03:32] it doesn't extend to helping on irc thats for sure [03:32] flaccid: you'd be wrong ;) people do use it, perhaps not as much as they should do, but its used [03:32] flaccid: plenty of people use it, the TOC on the left hand side is not Kubuntu's doing [03:32] kgoetz: i offered some but the team/nixternal just wanted it to stay the same [03:32] what do you want to change? [03:33] or where do you want to help? right now there is just myself and jjesse, one thing I would never do is turn away help, especially with kubuntu-docs [03:33] 1 documentation source, no duplication or redundancy, semantic and easy to use TOC, able to be referenced with URI etc. [03:33] flaccid: go upstream with that [03:33] plus that will eventually change with KDE 4 anyways [03:33] i already did with you on the mailing list months ago :) [03:33] hrmm, I don't remember [03:34] hmm ok, change of attitude now thats a good thing :) [03:34] but seriously, ubuntu doc needs to unify and be accessible. kinfocenter and help.kubuntu.com should be a definitive guide [03:35] well gl convincing everyone else of that flaccid ;p [03:35] ubuntu doc or kubuntu doc? [03:35] lol [03:35] i tried this months agon on the list [03:35] nixternal: um im not sure which one to be honest [03:35] ooh, robotgeek is around [03:35] well kubuntu-docs is unified to kubuntu and kde [03:35] i mainly suggest a handbook or manual that is definitive [03:36] even convincing nixternal's hard headed self is hard enough [03:36] we will have our docs on the new kubuntu website as well once that comes up [03:36] new kubuntu website? [03:36] hey nixternal, it has been a while. [03:36] afk [03:36] flaccid: you are free to write a handbook, but gnome, kde, ubuntu, kubuntu and the list goes on, is moving away from handbooks and going with topic based help [03:36] re: project mallard [03:36] part of the freedesktop.org standardization process [03:36] thats where the problem lies nixternal [03:36] a handbook is topic based help anyway [03:37] not necessarily [03:37] top based help as in "how do I blow up this pc?" [03:37] different beasts :) [03:37] it shouldnt be a case of 'this is the topic i should look up and research' it should be 'this is what i need to do, there is a procedure for it and its in the relevant chapter or category of the handbook' [03:38] dang it to push local commits of my branch up to launchpad is that bzr push? [03:38] an open UoD of topics does not define a scope for the support [03:38] jjesse: yes [03:39] flaccid: the topic based help in Kubuntu does exactly what you say it does? [03:39] don't we want to like make generic topics in a TOC for an operating system. its abstracted. eg. Video not BinartyDriverHowTo [03:39] for the wiki? [03:39] robotgeek: i can't really navigate it use it or understand it [03:39] we need to not think in terms of where the doco is but bring it all together. i have to reference the wiki to help people do not only problems but basic tasks [03:39] flaccid: that is exactly how kubuntu docs TOC is [03:40] if you have kubuntu docs installed, open up konqueror and type in the url -> help:/kubuntu [03:40] but i can't use it or reference it and it doesn't have all the information from the wiki and help sites and i still don't actually know myself the difference between these and why there are two. why is there wiki, help, then help in kde plus because of the different DEs.. [03:41] nixternal: it returns There is no documentation available for /kubuntu. [03:41] flaccid: there is information on the wiki that a) doesn't pertain to kubuntu docs, or b) doesn't belong in system documentation [03:41] wiki for one is community documentation [03:41] pertain [03:42] any and everyone is free to put pretty much anything pertaining to *buntu in there [03:42] and its a bit crazy that we have to reference community documentation thats edited by anyone and could be inaccurate [03:42] whereas the system docs document pretty much a stock system, with a little help here and there to do some of the more common things (ie. firefox, compiz) [03:42] i thought the ubuntu doc team would unify the documentation and make a definitive guide like the freebsd handbook [03:42] like a car an operating system needs a proper manual [03:43] we have been working on that, but seeing as there are typically no more than 5 active people, that is a tad bit difficult to do [03:43] plus the freebsd handbook is what, 20 years old now [03:43] *buntu docs are 3 [03:43] , 4 [03:43] no, 3 :) [03:43] when the FBSD handbook was written, they were not doing major releases every 6 months [03:43] we just got into 08 :) [03:43] afaik they still dont [03:43] kgoetz: not even close [03:44] nixternal: yeah and is still good, but the point is they use a relevant TOC. the kubntu TOC would be more simple for the more common end user, but the concept is the same. [03:44] nixternal: i should be able to put in some more time this year into the docs. i think i made a good start :) [03:44] flaccid: are we referring to the same TOC for kubuntu? [03:44] groggy knows obscenely large amounts too, so to sit down and write the first version of a reasonably stable system was just a thing of lots of words, not lots of changing words [03:44] robotgeek: groovy [03:44] flaccid: i disagree, i think the kubuntu docs are way better then any help system i've seen (SuSE, MS, Fedora) [03:45] yay for robotgeek [03:45] i can't even access the kubuntu docs, help:/ doesn't work on my gutsy [03:45] I knew it was only a matter of time before robotgeek came back to work :) [03:45] flaccid: do you have the kubuntu-docs package installed? [03:45] flaccid: then you don't have kubuntu-docs installed if help:/kubuntu doesn't work [03:45] the TOC is not an operating system TOC [03:45] its an optional package? [03:45] flaccid: you aren't looking at the right stuff for one [03:45] so all the big hitters in the doc world are in the chan today jjesse? [03:45] should it be / or // ? [03:46] flaccid: if you installed kubuntu, then it comes with kubuntu [03:46] help:/kubuntu [03:46] i think so posingaspopular [03:46] one / as help:/ is kio [03:46] posingaspopular: i see you are going up for ubuntu-membership? [03:46] nixternal: as i said, it returns There is no documentation available for /kubuntu. [03:46] yes sir. thoughts? [03:46] flaccid: then you need to install kubuntu-docs [03:46] sudo apt-get install kubuntu-docs [03:46] nixternal: nope, i have it installed. it does not show up in konqueror :) [03:46] ey? [03:47] this is fresh gutsy install, are you sure its installed with gutsy [03:47] shows up for me [03:47] posingaspopular: i thought you were one already [03:47] nixternal: same for me [03:47] help:/kubuntu/index/ works for me [03:47] does a meta package install that from the installer or something [03:47] actually its installed, but it doesn't work [03:47] help:/kubuntu/index.html is the exact location of the kubuntu toc [03:47] kubuntu-desktop [03:48] There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html. [03:48] omg another bug [03:48] it works on a gutsy live cd [03:48] it works for me and jjesse [03:48] nope that's my brother. but all the people who have promised me recommendations (hint: nixternal), haven't done it yet [03:48] the package is installed, why wouldn't it work if its not a bug [03:48] well, i did upgrade from dapper [03:48] posingaspopular: i can't be at the meeting but i would vouch for you [03:48] we met last time i was in chicago diddn't we? [03:49] yup [03:49] he was the dork with the skateboard [03:49] :p [03:49] yup. [03:49] man i gotta get back to chi town again [03:49] nixternal: um so if it doesn't work for me, i wonder how many other people can't access it. still i have never seen a help:/ reference in #kubuntu [03:50] flaccid: are you sure it isn't your system? robotgeek, nixternal and i all can access help that way [03:50] flaccid: I would say not that many, as nobody has filed a bug on that as of this time, however many people have filed bugs on typos [03:50] nixternal: i think i might have to make this handbook to show you what i mean. it will take time but then you can implement it [03:50] jjesse: no, help:/kubuntu does not work for me [03:50] jjesse: dpkg says its installed [03:50] robotgeek: sorry thoguht i read it did [03:50] are you sure you are using gutsy? [03:51] its not a typo [03:51] making the big bucks off my city jjesse? [03:51] Release: 7.10 [03:51] Codename: gutsy [03:51] posingaspopular; hopefully [03:51] im a regular helper, im hope im not that braindead [03:51] help:/amarok [03:51] does that work for you? [03:51] flaccid: help:/kubuntu/index/ try that too :) [03:51] maybe we can file a bug :) [03:52] amarok works [03:52] amarok works for me too [03:52] and so does help:/kubuntu/index/ [03:52] but not help:/kubuntu/ [03:52] or even help:/ [03:52] http://www.nixternal.com/~rj/help.png [03:52] that is what you should see [03:53] I have a hard time believing that if you are using kubuntu gutsy, it is a fresh install of kubuntu gutsy...it works right from the gutsy live cd [03:53] yeah you know me im not a noob so its a fact lol [03:53] nixternal: i removed it and reinstalled it, still does not work [03:53] i've double checked that im not drunk [03:53] flaccid: *grin* [03:54] don't know what to say, it works fine from a live cd [03:54] nixternal: i have to go to help:/kubuntu/index/ to get that [03:54] nixternal: you say 'thats odd, sounds like a bug to me' [03:54] no wonder i've never seen this nixternal [03:54] wonder if its an upstream bug or a docs bug [03:55] flaccid: it is in the top of KHelpCenter under the Kubuntu Documentation link [03:55] help:/kubuntu/basic-concepts/restart-x.html <-- bad practice dang [03:55] kgoetz: that would be kubuntu-docs [03:55] can you tell me why that is bad practice? [03:55] nix that link takes me to help://kubuntu/index/ hmm [03:56] wouldn't it be better to log out of X instead of kill it [03:56] flaccid: notice it says "Restart Kubuntu w/o rebooting", not "Log out of Kubuntu" [03:56] and they might still need to restart X server from kdm [03:56] it should be titled kill kde/X [03:57] goto kmenu and logout is much more graceful and ensures that your apps save their stuff on sighup [03:57] ctrl+alt+backspace has been the recommended way of restarting X since 1984 [03:57] brb. work [03:57] flaccid: I can agree that a title change could work [03:57] its not 1984 anymore [03:57] flaccid: but x works he same [03:57] ya, but the functionality of X is still 1984 [03:58] i have people complain that configs were not saved because ther application was sent a kill signal and not sighup so they log in again and have to config the app again. no wonder ctrl+alt+backspace is fast [03:58] not really kde was not on X in not 1984 running apps over the top [03:59] OK, then 1996 [03:59] or 1997 if you use Gnome [03:59] do you get what i mean by kill yeah [03:59] the didn't make the logout button a shortcut to ctrl+alt+backspace [03:59] because logout and restart x are 2 totally different things [04:00] just like the power button and the reset button are 2 totally different things [04:00] yes but you should logout first then restart X [04:00] what if you can't? [04:00] not kill X and restart it and send kill to all your apps [04:01] then you fallback to ctrl+alt+backspace. you kill an app when its not responsive, not when its responding [04:01] app=process [04:04] hah, help:/kubuntu/config-desktop/tips.html is more complete [04:04] hmmm. tips pretty ambiguous [04:05] robotgeek: hrmm, maybe we should just create a link to that section? [04:05] nixternal: i will write this handbook and present to you within a few months [04:05] flaccid: I have a better idea, why recreate the wheel when you help improve what we already have [04:05] how long until docs string freeze? i'd like to read through ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu docs and offer feedback before freeze happens. (if i can work it all out *grin*) [04:05] because its not the same thing, its a dif TOC [04:05] I can tell you right now, with a fair amount of certainty, that Kubuntu will not go back to a handbook...plus, writing docs for KDE 3 is pretty useless right now as well [04:05] nixternal: yup. [04:06] 2 months [04:06] * robotgeek checks for bzr tutorials [04:06] less than 2 months actually [04:06] i will write it and then put it up on a website like the freebsd handbook under GPL then you can work out what you want to do with it because i know you probably won't wanna just implement it as is in info center, well maybe you will.. [04:06] we are coming up on gui freeze soon [04:06] * MenZa lurks. [04:06] hello MenZa [04:07] hihi [04:07] um its an OS manual, not just the DE, you will see what i mean, the kde3 to 4 want matter and make that much extra work [04:07] ubuntu docs are all CC i thought, no GPL at all [04:07] flaccid: doesn't matter what I want, I am nothing more than a poor soul who does what he is told [04:08] yeah, i just want to unify this stuff, but i know that if i collab with someone else or whatever the objective won't be reach. the result won't be what is required [04:08] flaccid: and if you do reinvent the wheel, you have to insure your TOC meets "usability standards" set forth by KDE, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, and Freedesktop.org [04:08] yeah thats fine [04:08] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 [04:08] that is a great video [04:08] im a web standards developer so im up on the semantics, useability and accessibility etc. [04:10] as you can tell im a really fussy/standards type guy. im also a good copy-write despite my lack of grammar on irc [04:11] anyway i'll get back to you in future nixternal. i'll just do this thing gpl, but the aim would be that once its in handbook or whatever we reference the help:/ URIs [04:11] remember, you can't use documentation for the wiki and then gpl it [04:11] s/for/from [04:12] our documentation is cc-by-sa (yes, I hate the fact we use that crappy license) [04:12] i help in #kubuntu for hours everyday so i know what the issues are with stuff [04:12] * kgoetz wonders how he's buggarised his bzr checkouts [04:12] i'll be making my own website that uses not a wiki but a system like the freebsd handbook. i'll release this book under GPL or something so that ubuntu team can use it [04:13] flaccid: nixternal 's poitn is they cant use gpl doco [04:13] what do you mean [04:13] i can't write doco that is gpl? [04:13] ya, we aren't cool like gNewsense :p [04:14] they can only use CC-BY-SA [04:14] you can write it, we can't use it [04:14] serious [04:14] nixternal: :p we dont have doco :S [04:14] why is that [04:14] kgoetz: but you have RMS! [04:14] ubuntu-docs is licensed by cc=by-sa [04:14] along with th official ubuntu book [04:14] flaccid: cuz someone decided to go with cc-by-sa (ie. sabdfl and the rest of the community council) [04:14] nixternal: yes, there is that [04:14] so like what is the cc by sa license [04:14] a license that won't hold water in a court of law [04:14] seriouslly there is going to be another rambo movie? [04:14] hehe [04:15] jjesse: yes [04:15] i don't get the point of the license [04:15] you just now heard about that? [04:15] Sly announced that during the first or second season of the Contender [04:15] these license issues have been bugging us for a while. damn. [04:15] err, I am sorry, I am thinking about something else jjesse [04:15] i dont know. like so if i release this book in GPL you guys can't reproduce the content. isn't that ubuntu kicking themselves? [04:15] robotgeek: ya, we can't even share doco with upstream because of it [04:16] flaccid: no we can't use it, and yes they are kicking themselves :) [04:16] ok dang!!!!! [04:16] hmm, i could take over the ubuntu doc preferred resource all by myself. [04:17] alrighty then [04:17] time to roll out [04:18] Hobbsee: :) [04:18] heya [04:18] nixternal: later [04:18] hey :) [04:18] later [04:18] howdy Hobbsee [04:18] night all [04:18] robotgeek! [04:18] hehe. hes got a lot of that today [04:20] i gotta be off too. damn, it all started off with cleaning my apartment, ended up taking my computer apart, and writing an article. [04:21] hey nixternal, do you know if a lot of these gui kde frontend bugs and admin mode and so forth where its greyed out or doesn't load or whater - is it kubuntu or kde's bug? [04:21] flaccid: all bugs are kubuntu bugs :) [04:21] even the ones in gnome ;) [04:21] lol [04:21] roflmao [04:22] *grin* [04:22] this is why i prefer freebsd-kde [04:24] i'm off guys, later [04:24] later maet [04:24] *mate [04:24] * kgoetz wonders if theres a convenient way to read the docs, or just yelptest [07:44] morning all [10:08] hey guys, we were talking about latex before. i've only ever touched it briefly, how can i get started. install a latex 'suite' of tools or something [10:09] oh and excuse the puns in there,not intentional.. [10:13] flaccid: sudo apt-get install lyx [10:13] danke [10:13] np [11:33] oh i should press enter, sweet lol [11:33] installing now hehe [11:33] ... the terminal was just sitting there? [11:33] well you know what they say about 90% of computer errors ;p [11:33] yeah my yakuake, i've been drinking tonight [11:34] i kind of forgot about it for a second hehe [11:34] ah yakuake is different though [11:34] more like an hour [11:34] it disappears [11:34] ah but im dual displaying [11:34] too lazy to look on the notebook lol [11:34] ah ive been tricked again! [11:34] rofl [11:34] yes by a drunk [11:49] is latex on topic here? i thought it was only docbook for ubuntu docs [11:50] Kamping_Kaiser: are you going to spank me as a result? [11:50] flaccid, nah, i'd have to get up for my whip :p [11:50] oh dang! [11:51] Kamping_Kaiser: is backtalk on topic here? ;p [11:51] but more accurately, what is the actual topic [11:52] and how does it breach [11:52] posingaspopular, actually, i was wnodering if i should be !coc ing myself [11:52] mdke, btw, should the /topic talk about svn or bzr? [11:52] considering the other formats of ubuntu doc and licensing i think it doesn't really matter lol [11:53] well i don't think you said anything that o4o doesnt [11:53] who is that [11:54] !o4o flaccid [11:54] Sorry, I don't know anything about o4o flaccid - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi [11:54] @lart flaccid [11:55] dang [11:55] something like that... i see it in the -offtopic all the time [11:55] !o4o | posingaspopular [11:55] posingaspopular: Some things are inappropriate for #ubuntu-doc. Controversial topics, which always turn into flamewars: war, race, religion, politics (unless related to software licencing), gender, sexuality, drugs, questionable legal activities, removing of oneself from the planet (except by space or time travel) are not for here, perhaps #off-topic or ##politics. Microsoft software in ##windows (Please note Freenode Policy) - Thanks. [11:55] ;) [11:55] oh how trivial [11:55] and @lart is only enabled in -ops and -offtopic iirc [11:55] probably better to worry about the docs than than irc [12:09] what is freenode policy regarding ##windows I wonder... [12:09] what about it? [12:10] nothing, just that it was mentioned by the bot, and I needed to type something else then about ENV for a bit [12:11] * Kamping_Kaiser blinks [12:12] oh don't mind me [12:17] is it ok to derive wiki pages from manpages? [12:22] ok by who? [12:23] I.e. licence-wise, etc. [12:24] we are not laywers unfortunately [12:24] someone might be able to comment but [12:25] I thought there might be a policy about that [12:25] i can't comment sorry. someone might be able to === darkforce__ is now known as posingaspopular === posingaspopular is now known as eddieftw === eddieftw is now known as posingaspopular [13:46] why are ubuntu people so closed minded [13:46] i just got kicked from the ops chan for voicing the fact that on topic and off topic are not clearly defined [13:46] which is true [13:47] may you have not been very polite about that? [13:48] im polite, but they cannot open their mind to realise that they have not defined it corrrectly [13:48] this is science you know [13:48] well i duno about the -doc chan. being helpful here flaccid but i think there is a list for community and/or loco talk, if the -ops chan isn't helpful [13:48] but i have to go work... so adios and good luck with your hacking everyone [13:48] im sick of attitude ops and closed mindedmness in the ubuntu community [13:49] so i might as well compete and screw them. [13:53] ubuntu the way its going will be overtaken by a distro that has better organisation, goals and people. so far i've only come across closed-minded people in powers of position that have no idea. [13:53] i've only wanted to help, have given a lot [13:53] but only get ops that do nothing to help users bag me out [13:53] im not sure what kind of community thats meant to be [13:54] so i give up [13:55] personally I found #ubuntu to be terribly helpful though a tad too focused on new users so I have no idea what your problem is [13:56] well i already said what it was above.. [13:56] in this case, its #kubuntu [13:57] what the problem with it? [13:57] people [13:58] I give up [13:58] me too [14:11] ined [14:12] oh please [14:12] you guys have no brains [14:17] ahha [14:17] not nice [14:18] well, he's been ranting for hours [14:25] need help proofreading: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnvironmentVariables [14:25] where is the mailing list btw? [14:41] Greetings [17:06] New bug: #148954 in scrollkeeper (main) "package scrollkeeper 0.3.14-13ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Interrupt) (dup-of: 146832)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/148954 [18:10] <`Matir> somerville32, I was told to contact you Re: the Ubuntu Server guide [19:35] Is anyone else having problems reaching help.ubuntu.com? [19:36] works fine for me [19:36] Hmm [19:37] Now it works fine. [19:37] Strange. [19:42] <`Matir> i was having issues with it earlier [19:43] Hmm, can anyone give me a synonymical phrase for "For example". [19:43] I find that is sometimes responds very slowly for me, then again it could be just my ISP [19:44] "for instance" [19:44] Got that one :D [19:52] `Matir, To contact me or sommer? [19:55] <`Matir> somerville32, Jonathan Jesse said you... was that incorrect? [19:55] somerville32: is it you working on the serverguide? [19:56] * jjesse couldn't remember [19:56] I'm pretty sure sommer is the mover and shaker there :) [19:56] dang it got you two confused [19:56] sorry bout that [20:03] hey all [20:03]