[08:05] <kraut> moin
[22:33] <Lure_> @schedule Ljubljana
[22:33] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 03 Jan 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 09 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development
[23:02] <mhb> good evening
[23:02] <nosrednaekim> good evening...
[23:02] <allee> hi
[23:02] <Riddell> b  hi
[23:02] <Riddell> anyone here for a meeting?
[23:03] <mhb> we sure are
[23:03]  * seele waves
[23:03] <Riddell> any memberships?
[23:03] <Riddell> yuriy?
[23:03] <yuriy> hi
[23:04] <Riddell> yuriy: want to be a member?
[23:04] <yuriy> Riddell: yup
[23:05]  * Lure is tired, so can spare only half an hour or so
[23:05] <Riddell> yuriy: could you introduce yourself?
[23:05] <yuriy> Hi, I'm Yuriy Kozlov
[23:05] <yuriy> wiki page here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/YuriyKozlov
[23:06] <yuriy> I've been hanging around here for almost 2 years
[23:06] <Riddell> yuriy: tell us what you do
[23:06] <yuriy> and going on occasional bug triaging spurts
[23:06] <Riddell> and why you love Kubuntu
[23:06] <yuriy> including trying to organize a big feisty polishing one last march (https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTeam/Bugs)
[23:06] <Lure> I have to say that he does first class bug traige and has done this for long time
[23:07] <yuriy> also last march i started the Massachusetts LoCo
[23:07] <Lure> I will give my +1 based on just that
[23:07] <yuriy> (along with an other guy who shortly quit)
[23:07] <yuriy> the team was approved in november
[23:08] <yuriy> i did a summer of code project in 2006
[23:08] <yuriy> guidance configuration module for wine (system settings > advanced > windows applications)
[23:08] <Riddell> yuriy: what does the loco team do?
[23:08] <yuriy> hey maccam94 (he's a member of the loco)
[23:08] <Riddell> anyone else here to vouch for yuriy?
[23:09] <ryanakca> not that my vote counts, but +1 from me, and you're one of those which I've always thought you were already a member :)
[23:09] <yuriy> Riddell: the loco has organized an install fest and plan to have them regularly
[23:09] <yuriy> we have monthly meetings and held release parties for feisty and gutsy
[23:09] <nosrednaekim> they did some sweet case badges too :)
[23:09] <nosrednaekim> I have one
[23:09] <yuriy> some members have also done some talks at schools and such
[23:10] <yuriy> oh yes and the case badges
[23:10] <yuriy> most of this is now organized by doctormo
[23:10] <Riddell> well we've met and it was most useful having you at the UDS so +1 from me
[23:10] <Riddell> but I don't think we have quorum
[23:10] <Riddell> so we'll need to ask another council member to read the logs and vote later
[23:10] <Riddell> poke nixternal
[23:11] <maccam94> hey
[23:11] <maccam94> sorry for the delay
[23:11] <maccam94> Yuriy has my support
[23:11] <yuriy> and most recently i've been working on portin adept to kde4 (and then mornfall showed up this morning with his own)
[23:11] <nixternal> hello
[23:11] <nixternal> sorry
[23:11] <mhb> yuriy: do you have commit access to his branch? Or do you plan to solve this somehow?
[23:11] <nixternal> I was watching Jeff Waugh on blip.tv :)
[23:12] <nixternal> yuriy: once again, thought you were a member
[23:12] <yuriy> mhb: we haven't quite worked it out yet, but I will try to work on his branch
[23:13] <nixternal> +1 on yuriy from me
[23:13] <Lure> yuriy: welcome!
[23:13] <nixternal> welcome yuriy! congrats!
[23:14] <yuriy> thanks!! : )
[23:14] <Riddell> great
[23:14] <Riddell> any other memberships?
[23:14] <nixternal> sorry for showing up late Riddell..didn't have my irssi notifier running, but I was here :)
[23:14] <allee> congrats yuriy!
[23:14] <maccam94> congratulations yuriy!
[23:14] <yuriy> thanks allee, maccam94
[23:15] <Riddell> mhb has an agenda item
[23:15] <mhb> I do. ** Discuss possibilities of coordinating inter-distribution tasks.
[23:15] <mhb> what I mean is - there are several small distros using KDE and either APT directly or APT/RPM and I think we should maintain communication channels with them.
[23:16] <nixternal> PCLOS uses Syanptic
[23:16] <nosrednaekim> and offer them adept?
[23:16] <allee> anyone how has good contacts to those distros?
[23:16] <nixternal> dunno what Ark is using these days
[23:16] <mhb> for example, we could share a package manager with both PCLinuxOS and Ark Linux theoretically, but we don't.
[23:16] <nixternal> I have contacts with PCLOS
[23:16] <mhb> PCLOS uses Synaptic, Ark uses Kynaptic (that old KDE frontend).
[23:17] <Riddell> poor Ark
[23:17] <nixternal> PCLOS also uses apt-rpm if I am not mistaken
[23:17] <mhb> yes
[23:17] <ryanakca> umm.. I'm probably behind in the news, but what's happening with packagekit (sp?)... isn't that a cross platform frontend?
[23:18] <nixternal> ryanakca: they aren't finished with apt for one, and 2 they haven't finished a qt front end
[23:18] <yuriy> has ark worked on kynaptic or is it still the same crashy thing?
[23:18] <ryanakca> nixternal: ah, ok :)
[23:18] <nixternal> probably the same crashy thing
[23:18] <nixternal> don't think ark has a very large developer group
[23:18] <nixternal> either does PCLOS really
[23:19] <mhb> we don't have many paid devs either
[23:19] <nixternal> well they have 0 :)
[23:19] <nixternal> we at least have 1
[23:19] <nixternal> haha
[23:19] <mhb> so I guess it would be for the best if all similar distros had one PM strategy.
[23:19] <nixternal> sounds like a decent plan to me, it would allow multiple developers from different distros to collaborate
[23:20] <nixternal> word of warning, PCLOS community totally despises anything *buntu
[23:20] <Riddell> adept is developed as part of KDE for Debian, so that should be ok :)
[23:20] <nixternal> I had a hell of a time trying to get some info from them just because of my email addy and my irc hostmask :)
[23:20] <Riddell> if there are people working on adept then it would make sense for them to contact these distros
[23:20] <nixternal> very true
[23:21]  * Riddell looks at yuriy 
[23:21]  * nixternal does too
[23:21] <nixternal> hehe
[23:21] <nixternal> I can talk to devnet from PCLOS to see if he can guide me, or be my bridge over troubled waters
[23:21] <mhb> right, ask about what they would expect and if they have anything against Adept other than we have against it
[23:21] <nixternal> I know PCLOS is pretty set on Synaptic until the Qt frontend for PK is complete
[23:21] <mhb> and what their long term strategy w.r.t package management is
[23:22] <mhb> whether they considered PackageKit or not, etc.
[23:22] <mhb> nixternal: interesting
[23:22] <nixternal> mhb: I am fairly certain that PCLOS is going PK
[23:22] <nixternal> let me see if devnet is online right now
[23:22] <allee> nixternal: anyone from PCLOS working/helping with PK qt frontend/apt backend?
[23:22] <nixternal> damn, he went offline 12 minutes ago
[23:23] <nixternal> allee: I don't know if they are to be honest
[23:23]  * imbrandon returns
[23:23] <nixternal> I haven't heard much from the PK/Qt frontend either for a bit
[23:23] <Riddell> nixternal: fancy asking ark linux if they have any thoughts too?
[23:23] <nixternal> ya, we have a local dev here in Chicago I can speak with
[23:23] <allee> anyone working on this at all?  Is there real interest and momentum behind PK?
[23:24] <nixternal> allee: there is/was a fairly large push for PK, but it has been silent news wise for some time
[23:24] <nixternal> I know Foresight is using PK right now
[23:24] <Riddell> allee: yes, it's pretty active generally
[23:24] <nixternal> as for other distros, I am not to sure
[23:24] <Riddell> but the apt backend is lacking
[23:24] <imbrandon> is it python ?
[23:24] <Riddell> imbrandon: the apt backend is a mix
[23:25] <imbrandon> no no i mean PK
[23:25] <Riddell> that's what I was meaning too
[23:26]  * imbrandon has been tinkering with a qt4 python app for apt with mvo a bit
[23:26] <imbrandon> but i doubt it would be ready for hardy
[23:26] <Riddell> imbrandon: do have a go at fixing the apt PK backend then :)
[23:26] <imbrandon> useing apt-python
[23:26] <jcastro> PK discussion at UDS was definately "hardy+1"
[23:26] <imbrandon> Riddell: yea thats what i was getting at
[23:27] <imbrandon> :)
[23:27] <mhb> jcastro: definitely not later than hardy+1 or definitely exactly at hardy+1?
[23:27] <mhb> err, s/later/earlier
[23:27] <Riddell> "not hardy"
[23:27] <jcastro> mhb: what riddell said
[23:27] <mhb> okay.
[23:28] <imbrandon> Riddell: do we have any PK contacts ?
[23:28] <allee> so feeling is adept-qt4 or PK is the future?
[23:28] <Riddell> allee: anything that works :)
[23:28] <allee> lol ;)
[23:28] <Riddell> imbrandon: #packagekit
[23:28] <imbrandon> Riddell: killer
[23:29] <imbrandon> hehe dont say "anything that works" because my little python qt4 app "works" but i wouldent put it to wide use yet hehehe
[23:29]  * imbrandon stops
[23:29] <Riddell> any other business?
[23:29] <mhb> the permanent topics
[23:29] <mhb> perhaps
[23:30] <nosrednaekim> i've been working a bit on the easy compiz manager for kde3, are totally forgetting about anything kde3?
[23:30] <nosrednaekim> *are we
[23:30] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: I'd recommend coding anything in qt 4, that way it can be used for both
[23:30] <Lure> Riddell: do we care about comiz for kde4?
[23:30] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: is that based on mhb's work?
[23:30] <nosrednaekim> Riddell: yeah
[23:31] <Riddell> Lure: a bit.  it'll always be more powerful than kwin for the silly things
[23:31] <nosrednaekim> Lure: thats also what I was wondering.
[23:31] <maccam94> kde4 has it's own compositing
[23:31] <maccam94> hmm
[23:31] <Riddell> the major bling lovers will always prefer compiz
[23:32] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: that's good to hear though, do let us know if you need any help
[23:32] <maccam94> true
[23:32] <nosrednaekim> ok.. so i'll keep working on that. I just have to figure out how exactly to get compiz to be the default WM and let compiz know that kwin is backup.
[23:32] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: set KDEWM
[23:32] <nosrednaekim> yeah, but then what does it fall back to?
[23:32] <Lure> Riddell: but the delta between kwin-kde4 and compiz is more or less just stuff that is not really useful, but more of showcase/demo
[23:33] <maccam94> Riddell: if people want KDE4 though, we should see if there are settings we should choose for a standard KDE4 installation, as well as maybe work with KDE devs on features we might like to see
[23:34] <mhb> any news on the KDE4 Hardy CDs?
[23:36] <nixternal> speaking of KDE4, Riddell the packages are confusing as hell to me
[23:37] <allee> nixternal: ??
[23:37] <nixternal> they are a mess with where things get installed to
[23:38] <nixternal> are we still installing everything to usr/lib/kde4 or are some things going into usr/bin and such now
[23:38] <nixternal> dolphin-kde4 gets installed to usr/bin for example
[23:38] <allee> sounds like the pkgs need to be rebased on the debian ones
[23:39] <nixternal> ya, just started doing that...debian doesn't install to a separate directory anymore, they install side-by-side
[23:41] <mhb> do we have any user feedback on that KDE4 transition idea?
[23:42] <mhb> after all, user feedback is a permanent topic
[23:42] <nosrednaekim> kde4 transition idea?
[23:43] <allee> nosrednaekim: making sure the kde4 version of an app picks up the kde3 settings corrently  (or converts is appropriately)
[23:43] <nixternal> mhb: typical users are fine with it, there are the select few who are upset about our drop of LTS...even though most typically upgrade every 5 minutes anyways <- jcastro you like that :p
[23:44] <nosrednaekim> I haven't noticed any regressions between kde3 apps and kde4 ones.
[23:45] <nosrednaekim> vice versa though.. I have
[23:45] <nosrednaekim> (in settings being kept)
[23:46] <seele> speaking of users, are there any config dialogs or apps that could use an interface review?  or any functions or workflows users are complaining about?
[23:46] <nixternal> seele: KHelpCenter :p
[23:46]  * nixternal ducks
[23:46] <seele> ew
[23:46] <nixternal> haha
[23:46] <seele> hehe
[23:47] <nixternal> we need to look at a "rework" of KHelpCenter for 4.1 inclusion possibly
[23:47] <seele> yeah.. the content needs worked on too
[23:47] <nixternal> because we should be able to start working on documentation shortly
[23:47] <seele> there is a lot "missing"
[23:47] <sahin_h> I'm speeking as a user: kubutu-desktop like meta package will be available for kde4?
[23:47] <nixternal> everything should be missing...nobody responded to our call for documentation (our being Phil and I)
[23:48] <nixternal> sahin_h: you can count on it
[23:48]  * allee wonders if it's not easier to make kde docs qt assistant friendly instead of fighting with khelpcenter
[23:48] <seele> no, old kde files havnet been maintained in general
[23:48] <sahin_h> nixternal: thanks
[23:48] <seele> or point to a website instead of just providing it in the help system
[23:48] <nixternal> allee: I have been playing with a simple Qt help app that can parse .xml/.docbook and what not
[23:48] <nixternal> sounds feasible to me
[23:49] <nixternal> another idea about 6 months ago was Okular
[23:49] <nixternal> but that would make a ToC kind of difficult to create
[23:49] <allee> nixternal: since I saw how easy and reliable assistant indexing works I'm a fan of it.  (khelpcenter indexing never worked here ;)
[23:50]  * mhb wonders how Windows, OS X handles that
[23:50] <nixternal> khc indexing relied on a broken htdig
[23:50] <mhb> that == documentation center
[23:50] <nixternal> docbook
[23:50] <nixternal> at least I know windows uses docbook -> chm conversion for their help
[23:50] <fdoving> that "bug" with htdig beeing broken have like 100 dupes.
[23:50] <nixternal> that type of help system, aka topic based help, is what we are trying to move towards
[23:50] <fdoving> so people actually try to read docs.
[23:51] <nixternal> fdoving: they better
[23:51] <seele> they do
[23:51] <nixternal> otherwise my job is useless
[23:51] <seele> they'll use it more than once if the documentation is good
[23:51] <nixternal> I think the amount of bug report concerning typos shows there are a lot of people reading the help docs
[23:51] <fdoving> nowdays everything needs to be searchable. especially docs.
[23:51] <nixternal> yup
[23:52] <fdoving> so that's essential.
[23:52] <nixternal> maybe I will make that my project for KDE 4
[23:52] <nixternal> Windows Vista help is totally sweet I might say
[23:52] <allee> I vaguely rememeber qt 4.4 has introduces another help/doc system
[23:52] <nixternal> you have the option to search help locally and via the www
[23:52] <nixternal> allee: I will research that
[23:52] <seele> what documentation does it search on the web?
[23:52] <seele> microsoft documents or general web pages?
[23:52] <nixternal> seele: microsoft docs in msdn and what not
[23:52] <seele> ah
[23:52] <nixternal> ya, nothing off hand
[23:53] <nixternal> it is all controlled documentation
[23:53] <nixternal> one thing I know project mallard people talked about was cross-communications with a wiki page, which is fine, however anyone can edit a wiki
[23:54] <nixternal> would be cool to allow wiki searching, but with a warning, as well as forums searching, but with a warning
[23:54] <nixternal> so a help center with a pluggable backend for stuff like forums and wiki might be something to think about as well
[23:55] <seele> what do people usually use to create the docbook entries?  or do they convert from xml?
[23:55] <nixternal> docbook is xml
[23:56] <nixternal> or is a DTD for xml
[23:56] <seele> ah ok
[23:56] <seele> shows you how much documentation i do :P
[23:56] <nixternal> plain old text, use meinproc to convert to html if necessary
[23:56] <nixternal> but khc reads/parses docbook
[23:56] <nixternal> I love documentation, been doing it for a long time