[00:11] imbrandon: I seem to be having a problem with apt-mirror. The error I get is: http://www.pastebin.ca/841988 My mirror.list file is: http://www.pastebin.ca/841990 [00:16] TheMuso: s/pub2/pub/? === Spec is now known as x-spec-t [00:26] Fujitsu: Its the way tinternode have their setup. [00:26] Fujitsu: if you go to the site, ftp://mirror.internode.on.net/pub2/ubuntu/ubuntu/dists/gutsy/multiverse/sources you will see the files do exist. [00:26] well, not entirely right but you get the idea [00:27] Fujitsu: As it is, either pub or pub2 works. [00:28] TheMuso: pub2 doesn't seem to be visible from the outside. [00:28] Hrm. [00:28] Well it works for me. [00:29] Heya gang [00:30] Hi [00:30] Hello ion_ [00:37] gday [00:38] Hey zul. [00:38] hey TheMuso how goes it? [00:39] zul: Well thanks. Yourself? [00:39] good a bit tired though [00:39] so, if I wanted to deb up bkhive and samdump2, where is a good place to look [00:39] ? [00:40] look to learn how [00:40] !packagingguide | brandonperry [00:40] brandonperry: packagingguide is The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports [00:40] danke [00:42] hi bddebian [00:43] Heya LaserJock [00:43] bddebian: how's it going? [00:44] Same as always. You? [00:44] similar [00:44] hey laserjock [00:44] trying to get my new laptop going well [00:47] cool [00:47] apparently my ram is ok as nothing else crashed :D [00:48] brb. restart. [00:49] firefox somehow screwed over memory management. i guess i'll need to file a bug about that. [01:18] anyway [01:18] back to making libflashsupport useful on amd64. [01:19] make sure you're basing off Debian's flashplugin-nonfree-pulse tree. [01:24] has there been any more discussion about flash SRUs? [01:27] crimsun, i'm just fixing libflashsupport in universe [01:27] also [01:28] i think the gnome-panel crash has to do with gtk [01:29] ah crap [01:30] we really should gut libflashsupport in favor of Debian's flashplugin-nonfree-pulse [01:31] Are the based on the same code, or something completely different? [01:31] same code, essentially [01:31] But for syncing reasons, it makes sense to use Debian as a base. [01:32] I think CJ ripped out everything not related to flash+pulse, though [01:32] crimsun, i agree [01:32] And maintenance reasons [01:32] but right now, this gnome-panel crash is annoying me [01:32] I'm trying to chase down that rmap.c foo'er [01:32] ah. it's happened to someone else? :) [01:33] it's been happening for some time [01:33] (according to google) [01:33] it's the first time it's happened on this machine [01:33] i was worried that i bought defective ram :/ [01:33] are you using kvm? [01:33] no [01:33] ok, that's a start [01:33] but the memory passes memtest86+ [01:33] (i tested it before putting the memory into production ;)) [01:34] crimsun, i'll look into flashplugin-nonfree-pulse then [01:34] persia, gnome-panel crashes for me when i run pbuilder [01:35] persia, so i think it's I/O related, as a lot of files are opened and closed during pbuilder setup [01:35] since gtk+ has this retarded "recent files" thing now [01:35] crimsun: Would you be available in a bit to upload a source backport for clamav in Feisty? I did a "bad" thing today and I need to fix an i386 FTBFS. [01:36] nenolod: That matches my experience. I can replicate with sbuild, but never encountered with working with datasets in lots of little files with total size of twice my available RAM. [01:36] ScottK: if it's not huge, yes. [01:36] nenolod: Shouldn't that not track inside a chroot? [01:37] persia, it shouldn't track anything outside $HOME in my opinion [01:37] * Fujitsu has noticed gnome-settings-daemon crashing a bit lately, but not gnome-panel. [01:37] crimsun: Debdiff should be a new debian/changelog entry and one build-dep change in debian/control [01:37] nenolod: I can't agree with that. I touch lots of files in /data and in /usr/share/doc that would be handy in "recent files" if I used "recent files". [01:37] persia, i don't understand why gtk+ needs to track what files are opened and closed ;) [01:38] maybe it's an FD exhaustion thing [01:38] nenolod: "Recent Files" has several uses. Whether it belongs in gtk+ is a different issue. [01:38] can a debian/watch file reasonably track the "Download project files" section of a Launchpad project? [01:39] persia, see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/180463 [01:39] nenolod: just noticed that's with -2-. When -3- is bumped (or if you want to try it locally by grabbing and installing manually), can you update the bug report? [01:39] Ng: Should be able to do so. You might need to do it in screen-scraper mode. [01:39] persia: hmm [01:39] crimsun, gnome-panel? [01:39] crimsun, or linux-source [01:39] Or convince the LP people to give us a nice way to do it ;) [01:39] nenolod: I can't for some reason. Subscribe me? [01:39] ok [01:39] * Fujitsu blinks. Why would that be private? [01:40] nenolod: 180461 (linux) [01:40] crimsun, ok. will do. [01:40] Fujitsu, i don't know. i didn't set it private. [01:40] I'll have a look tomorrow. I've fixed up enough stuff tonight :) [01:40] persia, idle_populate_func() is a function which populates the recent files chooser [01:41] persia, i think it's an FD exhaustion issue [01:42] persia: Hey! [01:42] nenolod: That might make sense. I was only working with hundreds of files in my dataset activities, which is significantly less than sbuild. On the other hand, I only encounter it with some builds: about 40% of the time there is no issue. I wonder if it might be related to the installation of some of the gtk libraries in the chroot. [01:42] bddebian: Hi! Noticed zynaddsubfx: are you chasing sound now too? [01:43] I'm just chasing my tail, as always :) [01:43] crimsun, 180461 didn't happen for me until i increased my memory size in both amd64 machines [01:43] persia: Did you see that slangasek fixed jugglemaster? [01:43] crimsun, so < 1.5GB seems to not trigger the bug [01:43] bddebian: Yes. Nice fix too :) [01:44] nenolod: data set size or RAM size? [01:44] crimsun, it might also have to do with 32UL apps (flashplugin-nonfree) being used at the same time as 64UL apps. [01:44] persia: you know anything about ubuntu-main-sponsors? [01:45] LaserJock: A little. What information do you seek? [01:46] crimsun, because, the last time, i had a 32UL app going + apport running on gnome-panel and firefox hosed the slab allocator mapping table when apport opened a new tab to start the bug reporting process [01:46] crimsun: Would you rather have a debdiff to the current feisty-backports version of clamav or a .dsc link to the entire source package? [01:47] ScottK: both, please. [01:47] Will do. [01:47] crimsun, wish i had more information, but i'm not much of a kernel monkey ;) [01:47] I'm test building right now. [01:47] persia: Hey, I tried :-( [01:47] bddebian: You did all the heavy lifting. The final patch is fairly small. [01:47] persia: BTW, newpki-client iw freakin' worse than jugglemaster was... :( [01:48] s/iw/is/ [01:48] persia: well, I just noticed that there are quite a few bugs and wondered if there was somebody looking after it [01:48] I'm guessing dholbach [01:49] I can look at u-m-s later tonight [01:49] look -> help look* [01:49] LaserJock: Essentially. Some bugs in queue get hit because the people who watch those packages see them and incorporate the changes. When things sit for a while, dholbach usually subscribes someone specific, and pokes them. [01:50] persia, i have an idea on how to verify that it's a gtk+ [01:50] persia, one moment ;) [01:50] LaserJock: For packages that aren't "owned", I believe processing is somewhat like UUS, except the lack of unsubscription. For "owned" packages, best to poke the interested party. === kitterma is now known as ScottK2 [01:50] Ng: I have this in one of my packages: https://launchpad.net/andvare/+download https://launchpad.net/andvare/(?:.*)/(?:.*)/\+download/andvare-(.*)\.tar\.gz [01:51] persia, now i have two apps which should crash [01:51] Ng: should work for you changing andvare with your project name [01:52] Ng: (those two links should be in the same line) [01:52] Night all [01:53] persia: seems a bit scattered [01:53] stgraber: interesting Minutes btw ;) [01:53] hmm. can't trigger it now. [01:53] LaserJock: That it is. Nobody has ever sorted the culture mix for main. [01:53] * nenolod tries updating his pbuilder [01:54] pochu: There wasn't a lot of activity in the meeting. See the raw log :) [01:54] * persia should have slept in [01:55] heh [01:57] persia: yeah, I've still haven't figured out "ownership" in Main [01:58] what ever became of keybuk's suggestion regarding main+universe and seeds? [01:58] crimsun, so, you think i should scrap libflashsupport (it's not my package), and instead issue a sync request for flashplugin-nonfree-pulse, and then recommends: on that? [01:58] crimsun: We killed him :-) [01:59] crimsun: Near as I can tell sabdfl didn't like it and nothing more was said. [01:59] LaserJock: Well, there's several classes of things in main: flavour-specific stuff, kernel stuff, toolchain stuff, startup/shutdown stuff, core libraries, and miscellany. As I understand it, miscellany is not "owned", and core libraries are typically coordinated with all the rdepends, the others generally have teams that coordinate stuff. [01:59] nenolod: I'd ping ogra regarding the availability of http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-pulseaudio/flashplugin-nonfree-pulse;a=summary [02:00] crimsun: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-December/024885.html was the last result (as my further response was ignored) [02:00] persia: right which makes u-m-s a bit pointless [02:01] LaserJock: Well, maybe. It's hard for people not sure of the details (and some of us who ought be) to determine who gets a package. U-M-S is a nice way to coordinate the requests for sponsorship, and have the (few) main sponsors ensure the right people are notified about the candidates. [02:01] crimsun: Please see Bug #180466 [02:01] Launchpad bug 180466 in feisty-backports "Latest clamav backport (0.91.2-3ubuntu2.1~feisty1) stuck in dependency wait" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180466 [02:01] That has both the debdiff and a link to the .dsc [02:02] crimsun, well, that package is i386-only too [02:02] * ScottK2 runs off to get the 4 year old to bed. Be back in a bit. [02:02] crimsun, we need pulse to work on amd64 as well [02:03] ok, so we'd just need an addition to the arch line. [02:03] flashplugin-nonfree works with the wrapper on amd64, no? [02:03] crimsun: But will that work on amd64? [02:03] crimsun, right, but ia32-libs-dev is still all screwed up [02:03] still? even after pitti's upload recently? [02:03] granted I didn't check it, just noted it [02:03] crimsun, -dev is not in the archive yet AFAIK [02:04] nenolod@petrie:~/upkg/libflashsupport/libflashsupport-1.9$ apt-cache search ia32-libs-dev [02:04] nenolod@petrie:~/upkg/libflashsupport/libflashsupport-1.9$ [02:04] synced 1 hour ago [02:04] so... can't build-depend on it [02:05] so... have to do a bunch of ugly hacks to get it to build with ia32-libs [02:05] (which i have a way of doing, but like i said, it's ugly, and i'd rather see a proper solution be realised for building 32UL code in 64UL multilib environment) [02:07] the bug requesting ia32-libs-dev is here --> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/117131 [02:07] Launchpad bug 117131 in ia32-libs "32bit development libraries missing for amd64 systems systems" [Wishlist,Confirmed] [02:08] but it's not a big deal [02:13] crimsun, i think it'd be better to stay with libflashsupport for now [02:13] crimsun, cause people are using OSS4 and such [02:20] wheres better to join motu launchpad or elsewhere? [02:20] Here is good. [02:21] ah [02:21] ok how does one go about joining? [02:21] SirBob1701: Jump in, do some stuff, and after a while we'll tell you to request upload access. [02:21] nenolod: hmm, interesting point WRT OSS. [02:21] persia: ok [02:22] SirBob1701: I like to make sure people have reviewed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing, and would be happy to share tasks if you are looking for some. [02:26] fghgds [02:26] libflashsupport reruns configure without CFLAGS="-m32" :| [02:27] hmm. exporting it fixes things. [02:27] persia: i'll look that site over thoughly and then talk to you :) [02:27] SirBob1701: When you're looking for something, just ask here. Others may also have suggestions if I'm not around. [02:28] ok [02:28] ScottK: 180466 processed. [02:28] persia: if i want the source for a project to work on do i use the synaptic source or bazaar? [02:29] SirBob1701: Depends on where you want to apply the fix. I usually start with the Ubuntu package, (which might be repo source or bzr, depending on the package), and then push back up to Debian or upstream. [02:30] ok [02:30] SirBob1701: generally apt-get source [02:30] LaserJock: thanks [02:31] often times if the package is maintained in bzr it'll tell you, I think [02:32] stupid gtk+ bug [02:32] it's definitely some FD exhaustion thing [02:37] TRY TO CRASH IRSSI, GTK+ [02:37] I DARE YOU. [02:37] yeah. that's what i thought. [02:37] watch gnome-terminal crash now. [02:40] ia32-libs needs new libraries [02:40] :D [02:40] Again? [02:40] yeah [02:40] pulse is not there [02:40] Wasn't it uploaded less than 24 hours ago? [02:40] Ah. [02:41] sdl is fixed, libao is added (zsnes) [02:41] pulse is missing [02:41] Can't we just leave it for a week or so, and push a new upload then? It's truly huge. [02:41] persia: yes [02:41] persia: i'm more interested in fixing this GTK+ bug NOW. [02:41] * nenolod nods [02:41] because it's really starting to tick me off === nenolod is now known as nenolod` [02:42] well, pbuilder isn't going, so... [02:42] lets see if conspire can run without gtk going insane [02:42] ok. [02:43] i'm running memtest86+ again. [02:43] back later [02:49] * bddebian starts build 150 of newpki-client :-( [02:50] crimsun: Thanks. [02:51] bddebian: What are you trying to do to the poor creature? [02:52] slangasek: Would you have a moment to push clamav out the door in feisty-backports? It fixes two CVEs currently open in the backports version. [02:52] Who needs viruses when you have vulnerable virus scanners? [02:52] Fujitsu: Build it with wxgtk2.6 [02:52] bddebian: Ah. Ew. [02:52] Better than 2.4. [02:52] Marginally. [02:52] Trying to get rid of 2.4 :-) [02:53] bddebian: Why not reach for the stars and do it with 2.8? [02:53] Debian doesn't have it yet :-( [02:53] Ah. You're doing Debian first. That makes sense. [02:54] Are we trying to prevent wx from turning into db4.x? [02:54] heh [02:54] Yes. [02:55] We have 3 versions of that in universe now, I think. [02:55] More as of the last day or two. [02:56] Fujitsu: Getting rid of wx2.4 has benefits beyond just duplication. It renders mojibake in all non-latin locales. [02:56] I thought we had 5 in total, and only 2 in main now. [02:56] Ah. [02:58] Are there only 4 packages left on 2.4, or am I looking at the wrong list? [02:59] nenolod: That wasn't a very long test. [03:00] Fujitsu, turns out my old memory was a different CAS timing, and i think that's what the problem was [03:00] so i just pulled out the remaining 512M dimm, and things seem to be stable [03:00] we'll see what happens ;) [03:00] Hi. When is the last date until which I can propose/upload new packages for Hardy? [03:00] Is it feature freeze date? [03:01] yes [03:01] Isn't it some time before FF, to give archive admins time to NEW them? [03:01] good! thanks Hobbsee and wish you a happy and a great new year 2008 [03:01] Fujitsu: i thought it was all the same now [03:01] tuxmaniac: you too :) [03:01] at any rate [03:01] pbuilder fun [03:02] setting up pbuilder is not fun for me. Darn! I wanna a faster connection. 256 Kbps is just not for pbuilder stuff! :-( [03:03] Fujitsu, is that so? Can you please let me know the dates. I couldnt find that info in the releaseschedule wiki page [03:04] FF seems to be in Feb [03:04] there is no set date [03:04] LaserJock, ok [03:04] FF is when archive admins stop processing without an exception [03:04] so you'll want to have them in a bit before FF to allow for that time [03:05] Fujitsu: Any idea why we still have libdb1-compat? [03:06] ScottK: No idea. [03:06] Apt-cache says no rdepends. [03:06] Could be some proprietary things that want it. [03:06] cjwatson might now, being the maintainer and all. [03:06] Sounds like an excellent rationale for removal. [03:06] *know [03:07] aha. [03:07] * ScottK makes a list. [03:07] i found the source of my memory problem, i think. [03:07] i had two different brands of DIMM being used in a dual-channel configuration [03:07] :D [03:07] Hobbsee: Are you able to publsh backports? [03:08] We might have a chance of getting db4.2 to go away if the OpenLDAP issue can be resolved. [03:08] nenolod: That surely wasn't the cause of your gnome-panel crash, was it? [03:08] ScottK: no [03:08] Hobbsee: OK. Thanks. [03:09] ScottK: You mean a backport with source changes? [03:10] Fujitsu: Yes. It's been uploaded already. I need an archive admin to publish it. [03:10] Any core-dev can upload those, and Hobbsee should be able to approve them [03:10] oh. [03:10] I've lost track of what the web interface can and can't do. [03:11] Fujitsu: i thought that needed special publishing scripts to accept [03:11] It can approve stuff from NEW and UNAPPROVED, and even do it properly. That's about it. [03:11] Ah. [03:11] Right. Should have said. [03:11] archive admin runes public page may well be incorrect / out of date though [03:11] Hobbsee: As far as I know there's nothing special about backports, except that there's a script on drescher to generate them. [03:12] Hobbsee: If you wouldn't mind having a look and seeing if there's a clamav backport in feisty-backports waiting approval? [03:12] If you're making source changes, there should be no need for the script. [03:12] Right. [03:13] Makes sense. [03:13] persia, no [03:13] * ScottK2 waits to see. [03:13] persia, my X server started doing whacko stuff [03:14] persia, like, it forgot it had a mouse cursor, so i could hover the cursor over any app, and it would kill it with a BadCursor X11 exception [03:14] Nice. [03:14] That’s a feature. No more need for running xkill separately. [03:15] nenolod: Ah. I can't reproduce that one :) [03:16] ion_, yeah, except it kept killing my irc client whenever i went to go click on something in it [03:16] ion_, which started to annoy the living shit out of me [03:17] oh well, i just replaced the other 2 banks with more dimms out of that same batch [03:17] so now i have 4GB of server ram in here ;) [03:17] ScottK2: i'm heading out, sorry [03:17] persia, going to look into gtk+ FD exhaustion issue now [03:17] Hobbsee: OK. Maybe slangasek will show up. [03:18] oh great [03:18] ubuntu renumbered my devices again [03:18] er, not ubuntu, alsa [03:18] just more reason to get libflashsupport fixed ;) [03:32] hmm guess i'll request something to work on tommorow [03:34] persia, i added an appointment to evolution to remind me to file a bug about adding libpulse to ia32-libs in 5 days. ;) [03:35] nenolod: No reason not to file the bug now. [03:35] what ide's do you guys use? [03:36] kate and vim are my favorites ;-) [03:36] * Fujitsu uses vim. [03:36] nenolod: Please do file the bug now, and include the patch, just don't subscribe the sponsors until it's ready to be uploaded. [03:36] i like vim [03:36] gvim without the tool/menu/scrollbars. [03:36] persia, i'd like to restructure the ia32-libs package from the ground up someday [03:37] SirBob1701: Depending on how much you like vim, you might want to use it in non-IDE mode. I find it's easier to just keep two terminals open. [03:37] persia: i usually do do it all terminal based. i don't use gvim or any of that [03:38] nenolod: If you're up for that, now's your chance. It'll take long enough to do that most people won't complain about another 500MB download. Please fix gnome-panel first :) [03:51] persia, yes. gnome-panel is my current project, but it's not crashing atm when i run pbuilder [03:51] persia, it's being picky about when it wants to do it [03:52] persia, i do know where the crash is, though, and knowing is half the battle. [03:52] but at least my X server is presently sane. ;) [03:52] so hopefully i can get some work done [03:54] persia, nvidia drivers also need to be bumped, but that's main, and it's a no-change-upload [03:55] nenolod: Why do they need a bump? For the new X? [03:56] persia, nod [03:56] i'm using nv right now which is unaccelerated blitting [03:57] SirBob1701, i use nano [03:57] SirBob1701, don't listen to these emacs and vi fans. nano is the best. [03:58] nenolod: bit biased are we? haha [03:58] Yeah, every editor that requires you to use more keypresses for everything is good. [03:58] gedit FTW! [03:58] SirBob1701: You'll love the intuitive interface were ctrl o means save. [03:58] i like :w [03:59] ScottK: obviously ;-) [03:59] ScottK, nano is intuitive to me [03:59] * ScottK too [03:59] but i'm a little bit nuts apparently [03:59] you guys european? [03:59] so :P [03:59] Not me. [03:59] not I [03:59] hmm [03:59] nenolod: You also use Gnome, so you're doubly suspect in my book. [03:59] ScottK, :D [04:00] ScottK, i only use gnome because right now i find xfce's direction to be too vague ;) [04:00] I like xfce network manager doesn't work the way i'd like all the time in it tho [04:00] actually never [04:00] networkmanager sucks [04:00] * nenolod needs to remove it [04:01] lol what do you use? [04:01] or want to use? [04:01] i already killed off tracker for wasting my disk I/O resources building an index i won't ever use [04:02] ya i should prolly yank that out. i only use locate [04:02] SirBob1701, /etc/network/interfaces [04:02] nenolod: i jump too many wireless networks [04:02] SirBob1701, this is a desktop [04:02] there you go [04:02] SirBob1701, networkmanager is fine for my laptop [04:03] honestly its only on my desktop back at school cause i'm lazy [04:03] * nenolod wishes there was a ubuntu-desktop-lite [04:03] haha [04:03] you know, gnome without networkmanager, tracker, and other crap i don't want [04:03] gobuntu? [04:03] nenolod: What would it contain? Maybe you seek ubuntu-standard? [04:04] SirBob1701, networkmanager, tracker, and other crap i don't want, are all free software [04:04] ah [04:04] persia, gnome, ubuntu-artwork, other useful tools like gimp, OO.o and such [04:04] Fortunately they are easliy removed [04:05] i mike switch over to xubuntu. gotta see how vmware workstation works in it [04:06] SirBob1701: Should be no change from how it works in any other flavour, due to the nature of dependencies management. [04:06] hmm [04:09] persia, i think ia32-libs should be a metapackage for various lib32* [04:09] do you guys all have day jobs and do all this in your free time? [04:09] * Fujitsu doesn't see any Canonical employees lurking, so assumes so. [04:10] Almost all. [04:10] * ScottK sees at least one. [04:10] SirBob1701, well i make money working with linux, but i don't make money packaging up software for debian/ubuntu ;p [04:10] * TheMuso sees at least 3. [04:11] Sorry, I meant lurking in the `likely to be around' sense, not in the IRC `always present but not speaking' sesnse. [04:11] * ScottK2 uses linux to make money, but doesn't get directly paid for working on Ubuntu. [04:11] * nenolod declares memory issue fixed since his box hasn't gone into automatic xkill feature mode [04:12] ;) [04:13] i took a job for after graduation devloping windows applications. guess i'm a traitor lol [04:14] no, just foolish [04:15] people pay big bucks for linux work [04:15] microsoft pays their employees fairly poorly [04:15] nenolod: You know of this how? [04:16] TheMuso, there's a fairly large microsoft installation where i live [04:16] i hear of these things :) [04:16] i'm not working for microsoft i'm working for a dutch company [04:16] only in america 2 years [04:16] SirBob1701> Nobody can forbid you to develop for a dying platform. The only question is whether you want that yourself. [04:16] TheMuso, most of the microsoft developers i know are below the poverty line [04:17] LucidFox: point taken [04:17] nenolod: Ouch. [04:17] TheMuso, well it's why windows is crap [04:17] * persia champions platform agnosticism for employment, so long as it provides time for Ubuntu [04:17] I think I might be below the poverty line ... [04:18] TheMuso, nobody is motivated to do a good job because they are paid so poorly [04:18] nenolod: I'm not so sure I believe that. [04:18] TheMuso, well i'm sure it's one of the reasons [04:18] windows is also needlessly complex [04:18] that's probably another ;) [04:18] nenolod: I'm not. I'm paid very poorly to work on Ubuntu, and don't believe it impacts my motivation. [04:19] * minghua doesn't count "work for free" as "be paid very poorly". :-) [04:19] * persia thinks minghua has never held a "working visa" [04:20] persia, yes, but, you're motivated because you're making a /difference/ [04:20] * persia loses the set [04:20] LaserJock: But you're a graduate student. You've volunteered to be poor. [04:20] persia: No. [04:20] persia, your average microsoft employee is doing whatever he is told to do. he has no latitude for making his own choices about defining the direction in which a specific component of a product should go [04:20] ScottK: true ... although I don't feel much like a volunteer [04:21] when working on ubuntu, you are in control of your own tasks [04:21] nenolod: To me that would be more of an issue than the remuneration. [04:22] persia, yes, but if you have no choice in how to go with something, and you are being paid poorly to do this work, than odds are you're not going to be very non-apathetic about it [04:23] nenolod: I've been apathetic and bitter while being paid very highly to do things I had no choice about. It's not about remuneration. [04:23] persia, true [04:23] persia, but at least you can be apathetic and bitter in style with proper remuneration. ;) [04:25]