=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development === Varka- is now known as Varka === bigon is now known as bigon` === aRyn_ is now known as aRyn === bigon` is now known as bigon === asac_ is now known as asac === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === asac_ is now known as asac [13:49] * pitti waves hello [13:49] * mvo looks around === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU [13:56] !now [13:56] Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi [13:56] @now [13:56] Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 13:56:32 - Current meeting: Desktop Team Development [13:58] everybody here? [13:58] hi all [13:59] * mvo waves [13:59] hi [13:59] * Keybuk sends an SMS to Ted [13:59] hello [13:59] welcome back everyone, I hope you all had good holidays? [13:59] hey [14:00] yes! [14:00] fabulous [14:00] what? [14:00] ah, good holidays? [14:00] yes ;-) [14:00] I haven't had time to put together a wiki page today, have been catching up with things this morning [14:00] seb128, still? :) [14:00] but I didn't see any agenda items in the activity reports? [14:01] I've some agenda [14:01] seb128: should we continue the nautilus-gio discussion here? [14:01] seb128: ok, go for it [14:01] awalton__: no, that has already been discussed at UDS and we will not know before having testing 2.21 and got feedback [14:01] ah alright. [14:02] Keybuk: 1- we have quite some compiz integration issues, is somebody in your team supposed to work on those? [14:02] mvo or MacSlow? [14:02] yes, both mvo and MacSlow are available to work on those [14:02] i guess ted will find a good bunch of GL screensaver issues with compiz if he looks deep enough [14:03] ok, I'll try to get MacSlow to work on those then, he said he would some months ago but nothing happened since [14:03] I guess everybody is busy [14:03] other thing [14:03] brasero and transmission-gtk have been suggested for default installation by some users on the lists [14:03] seb128, I've been working on other specs [14:03] I would like to have the opinion on the team on those [14:03] seb128: if you have a list of the issues, feel free to send it to me so I can keep track of them and make sure they're not dropped or forgotten [14:04] seb128: Brasero looked nice, I asked Wouter for a comparison on the /DesktopTeam/Experiences/PlayingCDs page [14:04] MacSlow: right, that's why I'm asking if somebody is still supposed to work on those, or if you guys are busy with other things [14:04] I worked on compiz for alpha3, but the especially the workspace integration stuff needs more work [14:04] we don't have a bit torrent experience ;) but we could have one [14:04] should we also move seahorse on the default installation? [14:04] we currently have three burning solutions in the default install [14:05] seb128: it got GNOME module acceptance, no? [14:05] seb128, considering the the problems I encounter, work takes longer than anticipated [14:05] Sorry I'm late [14:05] (rb, sound juicer and n-c-b) [14:05] Keybuk: it's part of GNOME since 2.20 I think but we didn't move it for gutsy [14:05] seahorse> quite developer centric and thus I don't think it's utterly important to have it, but it's nice [14:05] ogra: and serpentine [14:05] ah, sorry, it was gnome-keyring-manager that's been removed for 2.22 [14:05] seb128, ah, right ... soo many [14:05] right, it's deprecated by seahorse [14:05] seb128, what integration-issue in particular are there? Except for perhaps wnck-related ones? [14:06] MacSlow: mainly the wnck related one, but we get way to many bugs because of those [14:06] pitti: seahorse does help with general gpg agent issues [14:06] CD burning> isn't there an official gnome approach to this? [14:06] pitti, m-c-b and rb [14:06] pitti: they have nautilus-cd-burner and seems happy with it so far [14:06] *n-c-b [14:06] RB recently learned to burn CDs, nautilus does it for ages [14:06] I'm just afraid that we keep accumulating function duplication [14:06] pitti: but it lacks things like multisession support, directCD, videoCD, etc [14:07] my concern with Brasero is that it needs to be able to replace all of those things [14:07] seb128: but that's pretty special IMHO [14:07] seb128, metycity-"legacy" bites us and everybody else there... [14:07] pitti: cf the brasero mail on ubuntu-devel-discuss [14:07] so if you want to burn a CD from rb, it uses Brasero rather than doing it itself [14:07] Keybuk, no ... [14:07] Keybuk: and it must not be too complex [14:07] Keybuk, but it needs to blend in with them [14:07] seriously, how often do you guys use multisession CDs? [14:07] and, more importantly, average users? [14:07] * ogra didnt use any other CD burning app than n-c-b since breezy or so [14:07] seb128, the only clean solution would be to extend the ewmh-spec [14:08] well, looks like there is quite some users looking for burning application like nero under windows [14:08] pitti: I wasn't concerned with that [14:08] * pitti always found the ease and elegance of our CD burners appealing and a plus [14:08] it was more just that Brasero is a bit more like what users tend to look for [14:08] much unlike the complexity of suites like nero [14:08] our CD burners are damned hard to find [14:08] MacSlow: right, I understood you would work on this but you seem to be busy with other thing now so I was wondering if somebody else was going to pick the task [14:08] well, n-c-b is nice to burn iso directly from nautilus [14:09] and to backup quickly some files [14:09] Keybuk: right, we could change that, but that equally applies to brasero [14:09] but that's about it [14:09] we should evaluate them in terms of the experience [14:09] seb128, as this is most unpleasent work I don't think anybody addressed the issue [14:09] we need to identify places where to start the CD burner anyway [14:09] in any case serpentine can go :) [14:09] ie. what do we gain and what do we lose? [14:09] seb128, I can try burning weekends on this [14:10] well, n-c-b is rather basic burning integration to nautilus [14:10] like burn an iso on a CD [14:10] and copy some files [14:10] where brasero is an application [14:10] I don't think adding brasero to the install and the menu would be real duplication [14:10] IMHO we should design this task-based, not app-centric [14:11] it's mostly having a CD burning software in addition of the basic nautilus integration [14:11] agree [14:11] I don't want to open a CD management suite, I want to burn a data, or a music, or a video CD, or do backup [14:11] seb128, but I don't know how much influence I'm able to produce in order to make the neede ewmh-spec changes... I'll probably have to convince people like owen, havoc, vuntz & co [14:11] Maybe ideally we'd have the features of Brasero in the UI of Nautilus+Rhythmbox [14:11] not going to happen though [14:11] yeah [14:12] n-c-b upstream want to keep it simple [14:12] brasero itself looks quite nice though [14:12] and will no add option for onfly burning, multisession, etc there [14:12] seb128: I consider that a feature [14:12] yeah... brasero is pretty good [14:12] and users appear to actually *want* a separate app [14:12] Multisession doesn't need to be an "option". Just drag more stuff onto the CD. [14:12] pitti: and it's already in main ;-) [14:12] so, putting brasero in teh menus for complex tasks, and the simple nautilus integration for easy tasks might be a way to go [14:12] mpt: n-c-b doesn't want to do it [14:12] I always install brasero on every ubuntu-machine I set up [14:12] I guess a lot of people from the windows world kind of expect a seperate app (not sure if that is a good argument though) [14:12] pitti: right, that's what I was suggesting [14:12] if we can ditch serpentine in favor of brasero [14:13] yes we can [14:13] never used serpentine [14:13] then we wouldn't increase the number of apps (and confusion) [14:13] pitti, we should have ditched serpentine long ago :) [14:13] brasero is ten times as big, hm [14:13] rb does audio Cd since pre gutsy iirc [14:13] 720 KB [14:14] ogra: *if* you can find it [14:14] Keybuk, right [14:14] :) [14:14] and it doesn't do audio CDs for portable music players, which is where most people keep their music [14:14] i didnt until seb told me :) [14:14] in fact, rhythmbox really sucks for portable music players [14:15] Jono was telling me about this thing called Banshee [14:15] ;) *watches seb explode* [14:15] i only use it to copy stuff on it ... [14:15] Keybuk, :) [14:15] * seb128 slaps Keybuk [14:15] today is not the day for this discussion :-p [14:15] heh [14:16] I'm an outsider, here for a different meeting, but I'd like to make a suggestion. It really doesn't matter what CD burner is integrated into Nautilus IF the user could switch out the default setting for whatever he wants. [14:16] brasero seems generally better than serpentine, I can't disagree there [14:16] people can install whichever burning app they want of course [14:16] but the default is what matters [14:16] well, serpentine does only music CD recording [14:16] does brasero do dvd burning? [14:16] from personal experience brasero is a very nice app for burning-tasks [14:17] if so, I'm sold. [14:17] awalton__, data or movies? [14:17] what about its deps ? [14:17] Yes, default matters. But I know that I get perturbed by putting in a blank CD hand having Nautilus come up, and not being able to kill that function. I use a different burner. [14:17] i think it doesnt use cdrecord/wodim [14:17] MacSlow, both/either/or [14:17] ogra: it does use nautilus-cd-burner apparently [14:17] tyche: that's a setting in the volume properties (gnome-volume-manager) [14:17] bah. just use k3b. *ducks* [14:17] ogra, normal gnome-ish dependencies... sorry... don't know details [14:17] it currently defaults to serpentine for audio and ncb for data [14:17] I second the motion, Hobbsee [14:17] seb128, oh, thats news to me, it was developed by the libburn maintainer initially [14:18] Hobbsee, on kubuntu ok... but only there :) [14:18] but IMHO ncb for data is a good default, since it looks just like a file manager [14:18] MacSlow: on ubuntu too. i'll make the seed changes...how's that? [14:18] :) [14:18] Hobbsee: is there a GTK+ 2 version of k3b ? [14:18] Hobbsee, I'd call that cheating :) [14:18] Hobbsee: we will track you and make you change it back, how's that? ;-) [14:19] seb128: awwww [14:19] Keybuk: i've no idea. [14:19] so, let's get back to topic and finish that [14:19] seb128: you wouldn't dare :) [14:19] * Keybuk visits https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+member/hobbsee to make some changes ;) [14:19] *ahem* [14:19] yes, the topic [14:19] the question is to know what user expect [14:19] did we reach a consensus to replace serpentine with brasero? [14:20] offtopic... does anyobdy know if ogg/vorbis files can store a image/cover in the file itself? [14:20] looks like some of them expect having a separate app with advanced options [14:20] well, if it uses it as backend you cant [14:20] +1 for adding brasero instead of serpentine [14:20] seb128: we won't know that for sure without user testing; which we are going to be doing lots of, but not in a short time frame [14:20] well in my household it's nero on every machine but the mac (toast there), so a nero-like interface is probably expected these days. [14:20] * Hobbsee beats Keybuk up. gotta stay in practice. [14:20] my own personal user testing experience says that brasero is more what users look for [14:20] 1. keep ncb as default app in g-v-m; 2. replace serpentine with braseo; 3. switch to brasero as default music burner [14:20] ^ sth like that? [14:21] pitti: yes [14:21] the great thing is we can always changes our minds later anyway ;) [14:21] pitti, sounds like a plan [14:21] n-c-b as default for simple task [14:21] brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning [14:21] seb128, yes [14:21] I really like the file-manager like operation of ncb; not sure about others [14:21] ++ [14:21] pitti: I do but I understand that some people want to do other things [14:22] ncb++ (good for its designed task) [14:22] pitti: burning video CD was one of the things listed on the mailing list thread [14:22] seb128: I appreciate that [14:22] seb128: but I don't think it's better to switch to brasero for simple data CDs, do you? [14:22] no, as said [14:22] given that we had the same discussion back in hoary with gnomebaker i think it finally makes sense [14:22] ok [14:22] n-c-b as default for simple task [14:22] brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning [14:22] the demand was ther before :) [14:22] sounds like we agree :) Keybuk, happy with that? [14:22] I'm happy :-) [14:22] pitti, if you know that your file-manager offers that... e.g. my sister (non-geek) handles burning better with brasero... since it's a dedicated app for the task at hand [14:22] good [14:23] next one was seahorse [14:23] anybody object to it? [14:23] MacSlow: just slip in an empty CD and you'll get asked [14:23] pitti, she regards nautilus just as a "data-viewer" [14:23] MacSlow: no need to know it [14:23] I use it - it improves evo's gpg handling slightly [14:23] seb128: what is the advantage for a non-geek of seahorse? [14:23] -- seahorse (quite strongly) [14:23] mvo: allow you to change your keyring or gpg passwords [14:23] pitti: why -- ? [14:23] it adds 4.5 MB to the CD (possibly more through dependencies) [14:24] and it's not something average users will need [14:24] mvo: to encrypt or decrypt files from nautilus [14:24] pitti, what it's that big? [14:24] and it's part of the official GNOME desktop [14:24] Size: 4592954 [14:24] why is it so big? [14:24] you need seahorse, or something like it, to change network manager passphrases [14:24] plus dependencies, as I said [14:24] seb128: hm, strong encryption is certainly a plus [14:24] it's big because it has lots of icons in it [14:24] Keybuk: eww, can't you do that in n-m? [14:24] pitti: no [14:24] Keybuk: sounds like a bug [14:24] and lots of translated help [14:25] pitti: not at all - nm uses gnome keyring to store passphrases [14:25] so the way to modify them is through a gnome keyring editor [14:25] Keybuk: well, but nobody will look there, I'd think? [14:25] the huge icons part sounds like a bug to me. [14:25] which has been deprecated upstream in favor of seahorse now [14:25] NM should arguably link to it, but it shouldn't reimplement seahorse ;) [14:25] after all, you use n-m to input the initial passphrase [14:25] so you should be able to alter it there, too [14:25] yeah [14:25] the package looks like it needs tidying up [14:26] help moved out to a -doc or something [14:26] translations split out [14:26] icons split out [14:26] that'd make a big improvement [14:26] translations will be stripped if it's in main [14:26] language packs etc [14:26] /usr/lib/seahorse/xloadimage ?!? [14:27] Keybuk: hm, no help available by default? [14:27] http://paste.ubuntu.com/3438/ [14:28] that's what upstream listed as description when proposing it for GNOME desktop [14:29] hmm [14:29] seahorse's binaries are interestingy large [14:29] they're all 350KB or so [14:29] strip [14:29] which implies there's a library being statically linked there? [14:29] MacSlow: they are stripped already [14:29] oh [14:29] hm, with some cdbs hacking we should be able to symlink the identical (non-)translated help images [14:29] that would benefit other packages, too [14:30] MacSlow: all the debian packages are stripped at build (if the packaging doesn't say otherwise which is not the case for this one) [14:30] seb128: seahorse: I think pitti's concerns about the package size should be solved first [14:30] it is interestingly large [14:31] right [14:31] I agree with that [14:31] Keybuk: help is currently 2.7 MB, which we can probably get down quite much with some gnome help 'symlink identical files' cdbs hack [14:31] seb128: ^ WDYT? [14:31] (I thought we already had that, though; apparently not) [14:32] the fact the binaries are all the same size makes me think it needs a shared library in there [14:33] otherwise we need something like it [14:33] either we put seahorse in, or keep gnome-keyring-manager [14:34] right [14:35] still want to discuss new modules GNOME just decided for GNOME 2.22 [14:35] cheese add been added to the desktop [14:35] that's good news [14:35] * pitti points out that cheese is in main now, by request from mobile [14:35] transmission - it looks more like the kind of bittorrent client that users expect [14:35] but I haven't played strongly [14:35] cheese - dep of face browser? :) [14:36] Keybuk: right, I think we should switch, fedora is already shipping it apparently and it seems to be nice [14:36] In: [14:36] anjuta (devtools suite) [14:36] cheese (desktop suite) [14:36] gvfs (desktop suite) [14:36] mousetweaks (desktop suite) [14:36] swfdec-gnome (desktop suite) [14:36] * pitti kicks cheese on amd64 and hopes that it'll build [14:36] vinagre (desktop suite) [14:36] ndesk-dbus, ndesk-dbus-glib (external dependency) [14:36] it won an immediate point for me because it's not banned from mininova and our bittorrent client is ;) [14:36] [14:36] ;-) [14:36] ok [14:36] heh :) [14:36] anybody against transmission-gtk for bittorent? [14:36] fedora ships anjuta by default ? [14:37] if no let's switch [14:37] go for it [14:37] ogra: no, that's GNOME 2.22 [14:37] ugh [14:37] ogra: it's in devtools [14:37] that's alright [14:37] erm, not development GUIs by default, please [14:37] no, that's just what GNOME accepted for 2.22 [14:37] right ... dev.... doesnt really imply that it should be there by default [14:37] I think vinagre as vnc client would make sense too [14:37] vinagre - definitely [14:38] anybody objects? [14:38] well, especially since you're shipping vino. [14:38] (or remove vino, since one doesn't make sense without the other) [14:38] dont remove vino please [14:38] its massivley used in edubuntu [14:38] Keybuk: not true, we could keep using xvncviewer ;-) [14:38] heh [14:38] ...vinagre it is. [14:38] ogra: nobody suggested that I think ;-) [14:39] seb128: which is almost impossible to use since you can hardly focus the password dialog [14:39] I think we shouldn't include gvfs.... no flies for anyone ;) [14:39] seb128, Keybuk in his evil brackets :) [14:39] * Keybuk had to come up with an alt-tab, click, alt-tab, click click click type dance at UDS [14:39] s/flies/files/ [14:39] gvfs? [14:39] isn't that a dependency rather than a top-level thing? [14:39] ... remove nautilus ... tempting [14:39] that's a new module [14:39] so they list if for the form [14:40] but right, no gvfs, no nautilus ;-) [14:40] ok, so we agree on [14:40] your argument is compelling [14:40] well, you could still browse local files.. [14:40] - brasero, transmission-gtk, vinagre added [14:40] that would help me a lot on the classmate as well :) [14:40] - review seahorse space issue [14:40] just no network shares, no fuse, no hal.. [14:40] what's mousetweaks? [14:40] It's accessibility extras for mouse movement [14:40] seb128: if you can look into the binary size (build a shared lib instead of linking the static ones)? I'll look into gnome help symlinking; that should help with more space problems, too === posingaspopular is now known as h [14:41] There's ongoing discussions about merging it into the Mouse Preferences === h is now known as posingaspopular [14:41] pitti: will do [14:41] since we're mucking around in the seeds ... add f-spot, remove gthumb? [14:41] pitti: I just built seahorse, it's alright doing symlink magic [14:41] Keybuk++ from me [14:41] Keybuk: f-spot is there for ages [14:41] seb128: it wasn't in desktop was it? [14:41] seb128: right, I faintly remember adding that; so it just wasn't built for a while? [14:41] remove gthumb yes, but pitti will not like it ;-) [14:42] I'm all for going beyond mousetweaks and add libcwiid and sugguest wii-remotes to users... with a little IR-led array one can get "multitouch"-input [14:42] seb128: nevermind me, (1) it's just an apt-get away, and (2) if we ship f-spot by default, I better make sure it works well :) [14:42] seb128: it won't get removed from his machine if he just upgrades ;) [14:42] (dogfood and such) [14:42] damn, seeds were checked out on my lapto [14:43] and the nice man from Dell still has that [14:43] Oh, if only there was a way to make a *new* checkout.. [14:43] Oh, wait. [14:43] Keybuk, what migration from gthumb to f-spot ? [14:43] :p [14:43] many people will have existing galleries [14:43] Keybuk: ubuntu.edgy/desktop: * f-spot [i386 powerpc amd64 ia64 sparc] # Andrew Mitchell, approved by mdz [14:43] ogra: we will not force-remove it [14:44] seb128, its tere but was never integrated anywhere [14:44] ogra: as said we don't remove gthumb on upgrade [14:44] one of the biggest missing bits in f-spot is IMHO video playback support (or at least displaying the camera videos) [14:44] we still default to gthumb for everything [14:45] that sounds messy [14:45] yes, we'll need to move the gnome-volume-maanger default to f-spot [14:45] * pitti just hopes f-spot doesn't wreak such havoc any more with photo import [14:45] pitti: easy enough to revert if fspot doesn't work correctly [14:45] seb128: right, but I agree to switch over now to dogfood and test it [14:45] but we should try to fix f-spot if it's broken [14:45] we ship it for long enough now [14:46] 'zactly [14:46] mvo: gthumb didn't import those either when I tried it [14:46] I had to copy them manually [14:46] Keybuk: hm, WFM [14:46] WFM too [14:46] Keybuk: that worked for me, both importing and dipslaying (also I think it just spawned totem) [14:46] I have never used anything else in the past years, and I use videos on my cmaera [14:46] depends on the codec your cam uses [14:46] i have one where it works and one where it doesnt [14:46] the user experience with f-spot for videos is really bad, it downloads it from the camera into its Pictures folder and then its gone :) [14:47] there's an upstream patch for that [14:47] actually makes them work [14:47] I mean, the videos are gone, you have to search for them [14:47] .avi, MPEG video, PCM audio here [14:47] I think I saw this patch [14:47] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166038 [14:47] attached to that [14:47] Gnome bug 166038 in Browsing "Support for audio and video media from digital cameras" [Enhancement,New] [14:47] pitti, i think the one that doesnt work uses mp4 or so [14:48] I haven't tried with my new camera, I must admit [14:48] pitti: "/bin/sh: fdupes: not found" from the seahorse build log BTW [14:48] with my camcorder, gthumb only ever touched the photos on it, but that could be because of the fact it's a video camera so stores the videos differently [14:48] seb128: erk, missing cdbs b-dep, I guess [14:49] seb128: will fix in a minute [14:49] seb128: anything else on the list? [14:49] pitti: no, rather missing cdbs Depends [14:49] Keybuk: I don't think so [14:49] seb128: yeah, that's what I mean of course *slap myself* [14:49] pitti: ;-) [14:49] ok, I have one quick agenda item [14:49] GUADEC [14:49] pitti: that would explain why we didn't win CD space [14:50] they've announced the dates and venue - http://www.guadec.org/node/797 [14:50] seb128: weird -- bzr head *does* have this depends: [14:50] 7th-12th of July: Istanbul, Turkey [14:50] seb128: got it, fixing [14:50] pitti: great [14:51] if you'd like to go, please mail me, along with your answer to the following tie-breaker "You should send me to GUADEC because ..." [14:52] since it's in a truly foreign land, you might need a visa, so sooner rather than later [14:52]