[13:49]  * pitti waves hello
[13:49]  * mvo looks around
[13:56] <effie_jayx> !now
[13:56] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[13:56] <effie_jayx> @now
[13:56] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 13:56:32 - Current meeting: Desktop Team Development
[13:58] <Keybuk> everybody here?
[13:58] <kwwii> hi all
[13:59]  * mvo waves
[13:59] <Riddell> hi
[13:59]  * Keybuk sends an SMS to Ted
[13:59] <pedro_> hello
[13:59] <Keybuk> welcome back everyone, I hope you all had good holidays?
[13:59] <seb128> hey
[14:00] <mvo> yes!
[14:00] <pitti> fabulous
[14:00] <seb128> what?
[14:00] <seb128> ah, good holidays?
[14:00] <seb128> yes ;-)
[14:00] <Keybuk> I haven't had time to put together a wiki page today, have been catching up with things this morning
[14:00] <MacSlow> seb128, still? :)
[14:00] <Keybuk> but I didn't see any agenda items in the activity reports?
[14:01] <seb128> I've some agenda
[14:01] <awalton__> seb128: should we continue the nautilus-gio discussion here?
[14:01] <Keybuk> seb128: ok, go for it
[14:01] <seb128> awalton__: no, that has already been discussed at UDS and we will not know before having testing 2.21 and got feedback
[14:01] <awalton__> ah alright.
[14:02] <seb128> Keybuk: 1- we have quite some compiz integration issues, is somebody in your team supposed to work on those?
[14:02] <seb128> mvo or MacSlow?
[14:02] <Keybuk> yes, both mvo and MacSlow are available to work on those
[14:02] <ogra> i guess ted will find a good bunch of GL screensaver issues with compiz if he looks deep enough
[14:03] <seb128> ok, I'll try to get MacSlow to work on those then, he said he would some months ago but nothing happened since
[14:03] <seb128> I guess everybody is busy
[14:03] <seb128> other thing
[14:03] <seb128> brasero and transmission-gtk have been suggested for default installation by some users on the lists
[14:03] <MacSlow> seb128, I've been working on other specs
[14:03] <seb128> I would like to have the opinion on the team on those
[14:03] <Keybuk> seb128: if you have a list of the issues, feel free to send it to me so I can keep track of them and make sure they're not dropped or forgotten
[14:04] <Keybuk> seb128: Brasero looked nice, I asked Wouter for a comparison on the /DesktopTeam/Experiences/PlayingCDs page
[14:04] <seb128> MacSlow: right, that's why I'm asking if somebody is still supposed to work on those, or if you guys are busy with other things
[14:04] <mvo> I worked on compiz for alpha3, but the especially the workspace integration stuff needs more work
[14:04] <Keybuk> we don't have a bit torrent experience ;)  but we could have one
[14:04] <seb128> should we also move seahorse on the default installation?
[14:04] <ogra> we currently have three burning solutions in the default install
[14:05] <Keybuk> seb128: it got GNOME module acceptance, no?
[14:05] <MacSlow> seb128, considering the the problems I encounter, work takes longer than anticipated
[14:05] <mpt> Sorry I'm late
[14:05] <ogra> (rb, sound juicer and n-c-b)
[14:05] <seb128> Keybuk: it's part of GNOME since 2.20 I think but we didn't move it for gutsy
[14:05] <pitti> seahorse> quite developer centric and thus I don't think it's utterly important to have it, but it's nice
[14:05] <seb128> ogra: and serpentine
[14:05] <Keybuk> ah, sorry, it was gnome-keyring-manager that's been removed for 2.22
[14:05] <ogra> seb128, ah, right ... soo many
[14:05] <seb128> right, it's deprecated by seahorse
[14:05] <MacSlow> seb128, what integration-issue in particular are there? Except for perhaps wnck-related ones?
[14:06] <seb128> MacSlow: mainly the wnck related one, but we get way to many bugs because of those
[14:06] <Keybuk> pitti: seahorse does help with general gpg agent issues
[14:06] <pitti> CD burning> isn't there an official gnome approach to this?
[14:06] <ogra> pitti, m-c-b and rb
[14:06] <seb128> pitti: they have nautilus-cd-burner and seems happy with it so far
[14:06] <ogra> *n-c-b
[14:06] <pitti> RB recently learned to burn CDs, nautilus does it for ages
[14:06] <pitti> I'm just afraid that we keep accumulating function duplication
[14:06] <seb128> pitti: but it lacks things like multisession support, directCD, videoCD, etc
[14:07] <Keybuk> my concern with Brasero is that it needs to be able to replace all of those things
[14:07] <pitti> seb128: but that's pretty special IMHO
[14:07] <MacSlow> seb128, metycity-"legacy" bites us and everybody else there...
[14:07] <seb128> pitti: cf the brasero mail on ubuntu-devel-discuss
[14:07] <Keybuk> so if you want to burn a CD from rb, it uses Brasero rather than doing it itself
[14:07] <ogra> Keybuk, no ...
[14:07] <pitti> Keybuk: and it must not be too complex
[14:07] <ogra> Keybuk, but it needs to blend in with them
[14:07] <pitti> seriously, how often do you guys use multisession CDs?
[14:07] <pitti> and, more importantly, average users?
[14:07]  * ogra didnt use any other CD burning app than n-c-b since breezy or so
[14:07] <MacSlow> seb128, the only clean solution would be to extend the ewmh-spec
[14:08] <seb128> well, looks like there is quite some users looking for burning application like nero under windows
[14:08] <Keybuk> pitti: I wasn't concerned with that
[14:08]  * pitti always found the ease and elegance of our CD burners appealing and a plus
[14:08] <Keybuk> it was more just that Brasero is a bit more like what users tend to look for
[14:08] <pitti> much unlike the complexity of suites like nero
[14:08] <Keybuk> our CD burners are damned hard to find
[14:08] <seb128> MacSlow: right, I understood you would work on this but you seem to be busy with other thing now so I was wondering if somebody else was going to pick the task
[14:08] <seb128> well, n-c-b is nice to burn iso directly from nautilus
[14:09] <seb128> and to backup quickly some files
[14:09] <pitti> Keybuk: right, we could change that, but that equally applies to brasero
[14:09] <seb128> but that's about it
[14:09] <Keybuk> we should evaluate them in terms of the experience
[14:09] <MacSlow> seb128, as this is most unpleasent work I don't think anybody addressed the issue
[14:09] <pitti> we need to identify places where to start the CD burner anyway
[14:09] <ogra> in any case serpentine can go :)
[14:09] <Keybuk> ie. what do we gain and what do we lose?
[14:09] <MacSlow> seb128, I can try burning weekends on this
[14:10] <seb128> well, n-c-b is rather basic burning integration to nautilus
[14:10] <seb128> like burn an iso on a CD
[14:10] <seb128> and copy some files
[14:10] <seb128> where brasero is an application
[14:10] <seb128> I don't think adding brasero to the install and the menu would be real duplication
[14:10] <pitti> IMHO we should design this task-based, not app-centric
[14:11] <seb128> it's mostly having a CD burning software in addition of the basic nautilus integration
[14:11] <Keybuk> agree
[14:11] <pitti> I don't want to open a CD management suite, I want to burn a data, or a music, or a video CD, or do backup
[14:11] <MacSlow> seb128, but I don't know how much influence I'm able to produce in order to make the neede ewmh-spec changes... I'll probably have to convince people like owen, havoc, vuntz & co
[14:11] <mpt> Maybe ideally we'd have the features of Brasero in the UI of Nautilus+Rhythmbox
[14:11] <seb128> not going to happen though
[14:11] <mpt> yeah
[14:12] <seb128> n-c-b upstream want to keep it simple
[14:12] <pitti> brasero itself looks quite nice though
[14:12] <seb128> and will no add option for onfly burning, multisession, etc there
[14:12] <pitti> seb128: I consider that a feature
[14:12] <MacSlow> yeah... brasero is pretty good
[14:12] <ogra> and users appear to actually *want* a separate app
[14:12] <mpt> Multisession doesn't need to be an "option". Just drag more stuff onto the CD.
[14:12] <seb128> pitti: and it's already in main ;-)
[14:12] <pitti> so, putting brasero in teh menus for complex tasks, and the simple nautilus integration for easy tasks might be a way to go
[14:12] <seb128> mpt: n-c-b doesn't want to do it
[14:12] <MacSlow> I always install brasero on every ubuntu-machine I set up
[14:12] <mvo> I guess a lot of people from the windows world kind of expect a seperate app (not sure if that is a good argument though)
[14:12] <seb128> pitti: right, that's what I was suggesting
[14:12] <pitti> if we can ditch serpentine in favor of brasero
[14:13] <seb128> yes we can
[14:13] <MacSlow> never used serpentine
[14:13] <pitti> then we wouldn't increase the number of apps (and confusion)
[14:13] <ogra> pitti, we should have ditched serpentine long ago :)
[14:13] <pitti> brasero is ten times as big, hm
[14:13] <ogra> rb does audio Cd since pre gutsy iirc
[14:13] <pitti> 720 KB
[14:14] <Keybuk> ogra: *if* you can find it
[14:14] <ogra> Keybuk, right
[14:14] <ogra> :)
[14:14] <Keybuk> and it doesn't do audio CDs for portable music players, which is where most people keep their music
[14:14] <ogra> i didnt until seb told me :)
[14:14] <Keybuk> in fact, rhythmbox really sucks for portable music players
[14:15] <Keybuk> Jono was telling me about this thing called Banshee
[14:15] <Keybuk> ;)  *watches seb explode*
[14:15] <ogra> i only use it to copy stuff on it ...
[14:15] <MacSlow> Keybuk, :)
[14:15]  * seb128 slaps Keybuk
[14:15] <seb128> today is not the day for this discussion :-p
[14:15] <ogra> heh
[14:16] <tyche> I'm an outsider, here for a different meeting, but I'd like to make a suggestion.  It really doesn't matter what CD burner is integrated into Nautilus IF the user could switch out the default setting for whatever he wants.
[14:16] <Keybuk> brasero seems generally better than serpentine, I can't disagree there
[14:16] <pitti> people can install whichever burning app they want of course
[14:16] <pitti> but the default is what matters
[14:16] <seb128> well, serpentine does only music CD recording
[14:16] <awalton__> does brasero do dvd burning?
[14:16] <MacSlow> from personal experience brasero is a very nice app for burning-tasks
[14:17] <awalton__> if so, I'm sold.
[14:17] <MacSlow> awalton__, data or movies?
[14:17] <ogra> what about its deps ?
[14:17] <tyche> Yes, default matters.  But I know that I get perturbed by putting in a blank CD hand having Nautilus come up, and not being able to kill that function.  I use a different burner.
[14:17] <ogra> i think it doesnt use cdrecord/wodim
[14:17] <awalton__> MacSlow, both/either/or
[14:17] <seb128> ogra: it does use nautilus-cd-burner apparently
[14:17] <pitti> tyche: that's a setting in the volume properties (gnome-volume-manager)
[14:17] <Hobbsee> bah.  just use k3b.  *ducks*
[14:17] <MacSlow> ogra, normal gnome-ish dependencies... sorry... don't know details
[14:17] <pitti> it currently defaults to serpentine for audio and ncb for data
[14:17] <tyche> I second the motion, Hobbsee
[14:17] <ogra> seb128, oh, thats news to me, it was developed by the libburn maintainer initially
[14:18] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, on kubuntu ok... but only there :)
[14:18] <pitti> but IMHO ncb for data is a good default, since it looks just like a file manager
[14:18] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: on ubuntu too.  i'll make the seed changes...how's that?
[14:18] <Hobbsee> :)
[14:18] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: is there a GTK+ 2 version of k3b ?
[14:18] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, I'd call that cheating :)
[14:18] <seb128> Hobbsee: we will track you and make you change it back, how's that? ;-)
[14:19] <Hobbsee> seb128: awwww
[14:19] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i've no idea.
[14:19] <pitti> so, let's get back to topic and finish that
[14:19] <Hobbsee> seb128: you wouldn't dare :)
[14:19]  * Keybuk visits https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+member/hobbsee to make some changes ;)
[14:19] <Keybuk> *ahem*
[14:19] <Keybuk> yes, the topic
[14:19] <seb128> the question is to know what user expect
[14:19] <Keybuk> did we reach a consensus to replace serpentine with brasero?
[14:20] <MacSlow> offtopic... does anyobdy know if ogg/vorbis files can store a image/cover in the file itself?
[14:20] <seb128> looks like some of them expect having a separate app with advanced options
[14:20] <ogra> well, if it uses it as backend you cant
[14:20] <seb128> +1 for adding brasero instead of serpentine
[14:20] <Keybuk> seb128: we won't know that for sure without user testing; which we are going to be doing lots of, but not in a short time frame
[14:20] <awalton__> well in my household it's nero on every machine but the mac (toast there), so a nero-like interface is probably expected these days.
[14:20]  * Hobbsee beats Keybuk up.  gotta stay in practice.
[14:20] <Keybuk> my own personal user testing experience says that brasero is more what users look for
[14:20] <pitti> 1. keep ncb as default app in g-v-m; 2. replace serpentine with braseo; 3. switch to brasero as default music burner
[14:20] <pitti> ^ sth like that?
[14:21] <seb128> pitti: yes
[14:21] <Keybuk> the great thing is we can always changes our minds later anyway ;)
[14:21] <MacSlow> pitti, sounds like  a plan
[14:21] <seb128> n-c-b as default for simple task
[14:21] <seb128> brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
[14:21] <MacSlow> seb128, yes
[14:21] <pitti> I really like the file-manager like operation of ncb; not sure about others
[14:21] <ogra> ++
[14:21] <seb128> pitti: I do but I understand that some people want to do other things
[14:22] <mvo> ncb++ (good for its designed task)
[14:22] <seb128> pitti: burning video CD was one of the things listed on the mailing list thread
[14:22] <pitti> seb128: I appreciate that
[14:22] <pitti> seb128: but I don't think it's better to switch to brasero for simple data CDs, do you?
[14:22] <seb128> no, as said
[14:22] <ogra> given that we had the same discussion back in hoary with gnomebaker i think it finally makes sense
[14:22] <pitti> ok
 n-c-b as default for simple task
[14:22] <seb128>  brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
[14:22] <ogra> the demand was ther before :)
[14:22] <pitti> sounds like we agree :) Keybuk, happy with that?
[14:22] <Keybuk> I'm happy :-)
[14:22] <MacSlow> pitti, if you know that your file-manager offers that... e.g. my sister (non-geek) handles burning better with brasero... since it's a dedicated app for the task at hand
[14:22] <seb128> good
[14:23] <seb128> next one was seahorse
[14:23] <seb128> anybody object to it?
[14:23] <pitti> MacSlow: just slip in an empty CD and you'll get asked
[14:23] <MacSlow> pitti, she regards nautilus just as a "data-viewer"
[14:23] <pitti> MacSlow: no need to know it
[14:23] <Keybuk> I use it - it improves evo's gpg handling slightly
[14:23] <mvo> seb128: what is the advantage for a non-geek of seahorse?
[14:23] <pitti> -- seahorse (quite strongly)
[14:23] <seb128> mvo: allow you to change your keyring or gpg passwords
[14:23] <Keybuk> pitti: why -- ?
[14:23] <pitti> it adds 4.5 MB to the CD (possibly more through dependencies)
[14:24] <pitti> and it's not something average users will need
[14:24] <seb128> mvo: to encrypt or decrypt files from nautilus
[14:24] <MacSlow> pitti, what it's that big?
[14:24] <seb128> and it's part of the official GNOME desktop
[14:24] <pitti> Size: 4592954
[14:24] <mvo> why is it so big?
[14:24] <Keybuk> you need seahorse, or something like it, to change network manager passphrases
[14:24] <pitti> plus dependencies, as I said
[14:24] <mvo> seb128: hm, strong encryption is certainly a plus
[14:24] <Keybuk> it's big because it has lots of icons in it
[14:24] <pitti> Keybuk: eww, can't you do that in n-m?
[14:24] <Keybuk> pitti: no
[14:24] <pitti> Keybuk: sounds like a bug
[14:24] <Keybuk> and lots of translated help
[14:25] <Keybuk> pitti: not at all - nm uses gnome keyring to store passphrases
[14:25] <Keybuk> so the way to modify them is through a gnome keyring editor
[14:25] <pitti> Keybuk: well, but nobody will look there, I'd think?
[14:25] <awalton__> the huge icons part sounds like a bug to me.
[14:25] <seb128> which has been deprecated upstream in favor of seahorse now
[14:25] <Keybuk> NM should arguably link to it, but it shouldn't reimplement seahorse ;)
[14:25] <pitti> after all, you use n-m to input the initial passphrase
[14:25] <pitti> so you should be able to alter it there, too
[14:25] <Keybuk> yeah
[14:25] <Keybuk> the package looks like it needs tidying up
[14:26] <Keybuk> help moved out to a -doc or something
[14:26] <Keybuk> translations split out
[14:26] <Keybuk> icons split out
[14:26] <Keybuk> that'd make a big improvement
[14:26] <seb128> translations will be stripped if it's in main
[14:26] <seb128> language packs etc
[14:26] <mvo> /usr/lib/seahorse/xloadimage ?!?
[14:27] <pitti> Keybuk: hm, no help available by default?
[14:27] <seb128> http://paste.ubuntu.com/3438/
[14:28] <seb128> that's what upstream listed as description when proposing it for GNOME desktop
[14:29] <Keybuk> hmm
[14:29] <Keybuk> seahorse's binaries are interestingy large
[14:29] <Keybuk> they're all 350KB or so
[14:29] <MacSlow> strip
[14:29] <Keybuk> which implies there's a library being statically linked there?
[14:29] <seb128> MacSlow: they are stripped already
[14:29] <MacSlow> oh
[14:29] <pitti> hm, with some cdbs hacking we should be able to symlink the identical (non-)translated help images
[14:29] <pitti> that would benefit other packages, too
[14:30] <seb128> MacSlow: all the debian packages are stripped at build (if the packaging doesn't say otherwise which is not the case for this one)
[14:30] <Keybuk> seb128: seahorse: I think pitti's concerns about the package size should be solved first
[14:30] <Keybuk> it is interestingly large
[14:31] <seb128> right
[14:31] <seb128> I agree with that
[14:31] <pitti> Keybuk: help is currently 2.7 MB, which we can probably get down quite much with some gnome help 'symlink identical files' cdbs hack
[14:31] <pitti> seb128: ^ WDYT?
[14:31] <pitti> (I thought we already had that, though; apparently not)
[14:32] <Keybuk> the fact the binaries are all the same size makes me think it needs a shared library in there
[14:33] <Keybuk> otherwise we need something like it
[14:33] <Keybuk> either we put seahorse in, or keep gnome-keyring-manager
[14:34] <seb128> right
[14:35] <seb128> still want to discuss new modules GNOME just decided for GNOME 2.22
[14:35] <seb128> cheese add been added to the desktop
[14:35] <MacSlow> that's good news
[14:35]  * pitti points out that cheese is in main now, by request from mobile
[14:35] <Keybuk> transmission - it looks more like the kind of bittorrent client that users expect
[14:35] <Keybuk> but I haven't played strongly
[14:35] <Keybuk> cheese - dep of face browser? :)
[14:36] <seb128> Keybuk: right, I think we should switch, fedora is already shipping it apparently and it seems to be nice
[14:36] <seb128> In:
[14:36] <seb128>   anjuta (devtools suite)
[14:36] <seb128>   cheese (desktop suite)
[14:36] <seb128>   gvfs (desktop suite)
[14:36] <seb128>   mousetweaks (desktop suite)
[14:36] <seb128>   swfdec-gnome (desktop suite)
[14:36]  * pitti kicks cheese on amd64 and hopes that it'll build
[14:36] <seb128>   vinagre (desktop suite)
[14:36] <seb128>   ndesk-dbus, ndesk-dbus-glib (external dependency)
[14:36] <Keybuk> it won an immediate point for me because it's not banned from mininova and our bittorrent client is ;)
[14:36] <seb128>  
[14:36] <seb128> ;-)
[14:36] <seb128> ok
[14:36] <mvo> heh :)
[14:36] <seb128> anybody against transmission-gtk for bittorent?
[14:36] <ogra> fedora ships anjuta by default ?
[14:37] <seb128> if no let's switch
[14:37] <awalton__> go for it
[14:37] <seb128> ogra: no, that's GNOME 2.22
[14:37] <ogra> ugh
[14:37] <seb128> ogra: it's in devtools
[14:37] <seb128> that's alright
[14:37] <pitti> erm, not development GUIs by default, please
[14:37] <seb128> no, that's just what GNOME accepted for 2.22
[14:37] <ogra> right ... dev.... doesnt really imply that it should be there by default
[14:37] <seb128> I think vinagre as vnc client would make sense too
[14:37] <Keybuk> vinagre - definitely
[14:38] <seb128> anybody objects?
[14:38] <awalton__> well, especially since you're shipping vino.
[14:38] <Keybuk> (or remove vino, since one doesn't make sense without the other)
[14:38] <ogra> dont remove vino please
[14:38] <ogra> its massivley used in edubuntu
[14:38] <seb128> Keybuk: not true, we could keep using xvncviewer ;-)
[14:38] <ogra> heh
[14:38] <awalton__> ...vinagre it is.
[14:38] <seb128> ogra: nobody suggested that I think ;-)
[14:39] <Keybuk> seb128: which is almost impossible to use since you can hardly focus the password dialog
[14:39] <tedg> I think we shouldn't include gvfs.... no flies for anyone ;)
[14:39] <ogra> seb128, Keybuk in his evil brackets :)
[14:39]  * Keybuk had to come up with an alt-tab, click, alt-tab, click click click type dance at UDS
[14:39] <tedg> s/flies/files/
[14:39] <Keybuk> gvfs?
[14:39] <Keybuk> isn't that a dependency rather than a top-level thing?
[14:39] <Keybuk> ... remove nautilus ... tempting
[14:39] <seb128> that's a new module
[14:39] <seb128> so they list if for the form
[14:40] <seb128> but right, no gvfs, no nautilus ;-)
[14:40] <seb128> ok, so we agree on
[14:40] <Keybuk> your argument is compelling
[14:40] <awalton__> well, you could still browse local files..
[14:40] <seb128> - brasero, transmission-gtk, vinagre added
[14:40] <ogra> that would help me a lot on the classmate as well :)
[14:40] <seb128> - review seahorse space issue
[14:40] <awalton__> just no network shares, no fuse, no hal..
[14:40] <Keybuk> what's mousetweaks?
[14:40] <mpt> It's accessibility extras for mouse movement
[14:40] <pitti> seb128: if you can look into the binary size (build a shared lib instead of linking the static ones)? I'll look into gnome help symlinking; that should help with more space problems, too
[14:41] <mpt> There's ongoing discussions about merging it into the Mouse Preferences
[14:41] <seb128> pitti: will do
[14:41] <Keybuk> since we're mucking around in the seeds ... add f-spot, remove gthumb?
[14:41] <seb128> pitti: I just built seahorse, it's alright doing symlink magic
[14:41] <mvo> Keybuk++ from me
[14:41] <seb128> Keybuk: f-spot is there for ages
[14:41] <Keybuk> seb128: it wasn't in desktop was it?
[14:41] <pitti> seb128: right, I faintly remember adding that; so it just wasn't built for a while?
[14:41] <seb128> remove gthumb yes, but pitti will not like it ;-)
[14:42] <MacSlow> I'm all for going beyond mousetweaks and add libcwiid and sugguest wii-remotes to users... with a little IR-led array one can get "multitouch"-input
[14:42] <pitti> seb128: nevermind me, (1) it's just an apt-get away, and (2) if we ship f-spot by default, I better make sure it works well :)
[14:42] <Keybuk> seb128: it won't get removed from his machine if he just upgrades ;)
[14:42] <pitti> (dogfood and such)
[14:42] <Keybuk> damn, seeds were checked out on my lapto
[14:43] <Keybuk> and the nice man from Dell still has that
[14:43] <soren> Oh, if only there was a way to make a *new* checkout..
[14:43] <soren> Oh, wait.
[14:43] <ogra> Keybuk, what migration from gthumb to f-spot ?
[14:43] <soren> :p
[14:43] <ogra> many people will have existing galleries
[14:43] <seb128> Keybuk: ubuntu.edgy/desktop: * f-spot [i386 powerpc amd64 ia64 sparc]  # Andrew Mitchell, approved by mdz
[14:43] <mvo> ogra: we will not force-remove it
[14:44] <ogra> seb128, its tere but was never integrated anywhere
[14:44] <seb128> ogra: as said we don't remove gthumb on upgrade
[14:44] <mvo> one of the biggest missing bits in f-spot is IMHO video playback support (or at least displaying the camera videos)
[14:44] <ogra> we still default to gthumb for everything
[14:45] <ogra> that sounds messy
[14:45] <pitti> yes, we'll need to move the gnome-volume-maanger default to f-spot
[14:45]  * pitti just hopes f-spot doesn't wreak such havoc any more with photo import
[14:45] <seb128> pitti: easy enough to revert if fspot doesn't work correctly
[14:45] <pitti> seb128: right, but I agree to switch over now to dogfood and test it
[14:45] <seb128> but we should try to fix f-spot if it's broken
[14:45] <seb128> we ship it for long enough now
[14:46] <pitti> 'zactly
[14:46] <Keybuk> mvo: gthumb didn't import those either when I tried it
[14:46] <Keybuk> I had to copy them manually
[14:46] <pitti> Keybuk: hm, WFM
[14:46] <seb128> WFM too
[14:46] <mvo> Keybuk: that worked for me, both importing and dipslaying (also I think it just spawned totem)
[14:46] <pitti> I have never used anything else in the past years, and I use videos on my cmaera
[14:46] <ogra> depends on the codec your cam uses
[14:46] <ogra> i have one where it works and one where it doesnt
[14:46] <mvo> the user experience with f-spot for videos is really bad, it downloads it from the camera into its Pictures folder and then its gone :)
[14:47] <Keybuk> there's an upstream patch for that
[14:47] <Keybuk> actually makes them work
[14:47] <mvo> I mean, the videos are gone, you have to search for them
[14:47] <pitti> .avi, MPEG video, PCM audio here
[14:47] <mvo> I think I saw this patch
[14:47] <Keybuk> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166038
[14:47] <Keybuk> attached to that
[14:47] <ubotu> Gnome bug 166038 in Browsing "Support for audio and video media from digital cameras" [Enhancement,New]
[14:47] <ogra> pitti, i think the one that doesnt work uses mp4 or so
[14:48] <Keybuk> I haven't tried with my new camera, I must admit
[14:48] <seb128> pitti: "/bin/sh: fdupes: not found" from the seahorse build log BTW
[14:48] <Keybuk> with my camcorder, gthumb only ever touched the photos on it, but that could be because of the fact it's a video camera so stores the videos differently
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: erk, missing cdbs b-dep, I guess
[14:49] <pitti> seb128: will fix in a minute
[14:49] <Keybuk> seb128: anything else on the list?
[14:49] <seb128> pitti: no, rather missing cdbs Depends
[14:49] <seb128> Keybuk: I don't think so
[14:49] <pitti> seb128: yeah, that's what I mean of course *slap myself*
[14:49] <seb128> pitti: ;-)
[14:49] <Keybuk> ok, I have one quick agenda item
[14:49] <Keybuk> GUADEC
[14:49] <seb128> pitti: that would explain why we didn't win CD space
[14:50] <Keybuk> they've announced the dates and venue - http://www.guadec.org/node/797
[14:50] <pitti> seb128: weird -- bzr head *does* have this depends:
[14:50] <Keybuk> 7th-12th of July: Istanbul, Turkey
[14:50] <pitti> seb128: got it, fixing
[14:50] <seb128> pitti: great
[14:51] <Keybuk> if you'd like to go, please mail me, along with your answer to the following tie-breaker "You should send me to GUADEC because ..."
[14:52] <Keybuk> since it's in a truly foreign land, you might need a visa, so sooner rather than later
[14:52] <somerville32> :)
[14:52] <MacSlow> Keybuk, everything !Germany is foreign... for me at least
[14:53] <Keybuk> MacSlow: oddly enough, it looks like Germany and Turkey have a visa waiver scheme
[14:53] <Keybuk> we don't :-(
[14:53] <Keybuk> anyway, digression
[14:53] <Keybuk> pedro_: you're up next :-)
[14:53] <pedro_> thanks, I've a quick agenda item regarding the https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
[14:53] <pedro_> so if you guys haven't looked at the list yet
[14:53] <pedro_> please do so
[14:53] <pedro_> and give us some feedback about it
[14:54] <Keybuk> (that list so needs "Assignee" - *looks at mpt* :p)
[14:54] <seb128> pedro_: where should we give feedback?
[14:54] <pedro_> seb128: on the same reports please
[14:54] <mpt> bug 78608
[14:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 78608 in malone "Allow specifying arbitrary columns in bug listings" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78608
[14:54] <mpt> and bug 105016
[14:55] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 105016 in malone "Assignee column on bug list" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/105016
[14:55] <pedro_> if you think something doesn't make sense to be there, remove the tag and comment why
[14:55] <seb128> pedro_: what do you mean? untag those and milestone or not according to what we decide?
[14:55] <pedro_> seb128: exactly
[14:55] <seb128> pedro_: because you guys tagged things I already milestoned I think
[14:55] <seb128> so I was not sure if the tags where useful for -qa or something for the maintainers
[14:56] <Keybuk> I have a conf call in a few minutes
[14:56] <Keybuk> so is there any other business?
[14:57] <pedro_> well if something it's already milestoned the tag should be removed
[14:57] <pedro_> seb128: i'll look at them
[14:57] <seb128> pedro_: no need to bother, thanks
[14:57] <pedro_> ok
[14:58] <Keybuk> ok, adjourned -- thanks everybodyu
[14:59] <mvo> thanks
[14:59] <seb128> thanks Keybuk
[14:59] <kwwii> thanks
[14:59] <pedro_> thanks you
[14:59] <somerville32> :)
[14:59] <pitti> thanks everyone
[15:03] <leoquant> hi willem!
[15:03] <whellinga> hi leoquant
[15:03] <leoquant> :)
[15:03] <JanC> hi leoquant & whellinga  ;)
[15:04] <whellinga> Hi Janc
[15:04] <whellinga> Are you the JanC with the long hairy hair I met in Bergen op Zoom
[15:07] <JanC> whellinga: yep
[15:08] <whellinga> JanC, it's hard for an old man like me to chat in stereo, so please forgive me for notr responding
[15:12] <no0tic> hi Hattory
[15:12] <Hattory> hi no0tic ;)
[15:12] <Hattory> (hi all)
[15:12] <emgent> hello there ;)
[15:44] <no0tic> hi totopalma
[15:44] <totopalma> no0tic, hi :)
[15:44] <jester-> hi totopalma
[15:44] <totopalma> jester-, hi
[15:45] <warp10> totopalma: \o/
[15:45] <totopalma> warp10, :)
[15:45] <posingaspopular> @now
[15:45] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 15:45:51 - Next meeting: Community Council in 14 minutes
[15:50] <totopalma> Rospo_Zoppo, o/
[15:50] <Rospo_Zoppo> totopalma: o/
[16:00] <dholbach> hello everybody - at the moment it just seems to be me jsgotangco and me
[16:00] <dholbach> I pinged sabdfl
[16:00] <jsgotangco> hmm
[16:00] <jsgotangco> claire said sabdfl should be free
[16:00] <juliux> dholbach, i will be back in 20min, driving home;)
[16:00] <dholbach> MikeB- and Burgundavia said they might be able to make it
[16:01] <dholbach> hey sabdfl
[16:01] <sabdfl> howdy everyone, dholbach
[16:01] <jsgotangco> hi sabdfl
[16:01]  * johnc4510-laptop morning all
[16:01] <dholbach> sabdfl: right now it's just you, jsgotangco and me - no sign of MikeB- and Burgundavia yet
[16:01] <sabdfl> are they online?
[16:02] <dholbach> doesn't look like :-/
[16:02] <dholbach> ahhh TechnoViking!
[16:02] <dholbach> MikeB- in disguise
[16:02] <sabdfl> well howdy TechnoViking
[16:02] <TechnoViking> in class
[16:02] <dholbach> we have an action-packed agenda today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[16:02] <jsgotangco> heh
[16:02] <dholbach> jono: are you around?
[16:02] <TechnoViking> but will contribute when I can
[16:03] <posingaspopular> hey all, im up for membership today
[16:03]  * posingaspopular sits back for the time being
[16:03] <jsgotangco> perhaps we can start on some topics
[16:03] <sabdfl> ok, i only have one hour, so want to race ahead on the agenda
[16:03] <sabdfl> full focus, let's dive in
[16:03] <TechnoViking> so poke me if I don't repond:)
[16:03] <sabdfl> jono: membership approval boards?
[16:04] <dholbach> jono seems to be stuck in in a call still, so maybe move on to AmirEldor's agenda point for now
[16:04] <jono> sorry on a call, can we return to this later?
[16:04] <dholbach> does anybody know anything about Amir Eldor and his "LoCo Website Hosting. Several teams find it diffcult to manage their websites/domains due to lack of communciation with Canonical's sysadmins" point?
[16:04] <jsgotangco> AmirEldor is around?
[16:05] <sabdfl> apparently not
[16:05] <jsgotangco> it seems no one here is representing that
[16:05] <dholbach> Ok... let's move on to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation for now then
[16:05] <dholbach> it's my agenda point and about the election process of team councils
[16:06] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[16:06] <sabdfl> i think it's clear and sensible
[16:06] <dholbach> +1 from me too
[16:06] <jsgotangco> my understanding is that we've been doing this with some teams early on
[16:06] <sabdfl> this is not the delegation of membership
[16:06] <TechnoViking> look good +1
[16:07] <sabdfl> it's the replacement-of-council-members process that we are focused on today
[16:07] <sabdfl>      Draft for Team Council member election
[16:07] <sabdfl> that part
[16:07] <sabdfl> right dholbach?
[16:07] <dholbach> sabdfl: exactly
[16:07] <jsgotangco> good to me
[16:07] <sabdfl> basically, call fr proposals, TB/CC shortlists, vote
[16:07] <somerville32> I'm here
[16:07] <sabdfl> is that everyone?
[16:08] <dholbach> yes
[16:08] <somerville32> re: hosting issues
[16:08] <dholbach> excellent - I will announce it and document it accordingly
[16:08] <sabdfl> alright, we have a decision
[16:08] <sabdfl> thanks daniel
[16:08] <soren> \o/
[16:08] <dholbach> woohoo
[16:08]  * dholbach hugs soren
[16:08] <johnc4510-laptop> nice
[16:08] <sabdfl> somerville32: are you AmirEldor ?
[16:08] <dholbach> somerville32: great... can you let us know what the issues are?
[16:08]  * soren hugs dholbach!
[16:08] <somerville32> I'm not AmirEldor, no
[16:09] <somerville32> However, I was going to bring it up but noticed AdmirEldor already had
[16:09] <jsgotangco> is this regarding existing hosting or new ones
[16:10] <somerville32> existing
[16:10] <jsgotangco> ok can you elaborate/cite an experience about it
[16:10] <somerville32> If we take a walk over to the community rt at http://rt.ubuntu.com, you'll notice that there are 27 tickets open for LoCo team issues
[16:11] <posingaspopular> jsgotangco: the chicago team has had our planet down for months now
[16:11] <somerville32> A number of them open for over 3 months with little to no triage
[16:11] <Admiral_laptop> the entire domain actually since there was an attack on teh Canonical server
[16:11] <smurf> does that RT have guest access?
[16:11] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: iirc, it was not a Canonical server that was attacked
[16:12] <sabdfl> in fact, elmo and co have been trying to clean up and help out
[16:12] <somerville32> For example, the ubuntu-ca team requested shell accounts on Fri Oct 05 07:01:12 2007
[16:12] <jsgotangco> thats right there are some teams on a different server host
[16:12] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: it may not have been but it was a big deal, hit slashdot and digg iirv
[16:12] <jsgotangco> and those servers have ssl keys of reps from lcoteams
[16:13] <somerville32> The request was re-sent on Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:26:35 -0700 and Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:16:00 -0800
[16:13] <sabdfl> i don't know enough about the current loco website offering
[16:13] <jsgotangco> same here
[16:13] <jsgotangco> but what i recall before
[16:13] <jsgotangco> is that locos were on a bunch of servers outside canonical's
[16:13] <somerville32> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html <-- describes the current policy
[16:13] <sabdfl> not sure who the sysadmins are that would fulfil these requests
[16:13] <sabdfl> if canonical is providing hosting they probably cannot just grant anyone admin access
[16:13] <jsgotangco> and had the ssl keys of those who volunteered to maintain
[16:13] <jsgotangco> thats right
[16:13] <somerville32> sabdfl, The issue is that they're not even replying to some tickets.
[16:14] <boredandblogging> locos have the option of being hosted by canonical but restricted in what they can run
[16:14] <boredandblogging> or they can choose to run their own
[16:14] <popey> (or get someone else to host it like ubuntu-eu.org)
[16:14] <jsgotangco> right
[16:14] <boredandblogging> popey: right
[16:14] <posingaspopular> i think what the point is focusing on is boosting support and eliminating the backlog
[16:15] <posingaspopular> for those LoCo sitess that are being run through Canonical
[16:15] <popey> there is indeed some bad words said about the provision of service by the canonical system admins - personally I don't see this issue, but have seen mention of it on irc and on the loco teams mailing lists
[16:15] <somerville32> popey, Simply take a look at the backlog on the request tracker
[16:16] <popey> sure, I understand, I meant, I have had no issues personally and I have hosting with canonical
[16:16] <popey> my bad wording
[16:16] <somerville32> Generally I've not had any problems until lately
[16:17] <somerville32> But I know my requests regarding the Xubuntu website (made a number of weeks ago) and the ubuntu-ca website have gone unanswered
[16:17] <popey> however I find it helps to be patient and ask the right people nicely, but I have noted some peoples patience has run thin
[16:17] <sabdfl> this team is overloaded, we have a similar backlog within canonical
[16:18] <TechnoViking> would it be possible to find a small group of trusted people in the community to admin this server, to take the load off of the Canonical admins?
[16:18] <sabdfl> what are the services offered? is it:
[16:18] <sabdfl>  - shell accounts
[16:18] <sabdfl>  - websites
[16:18] <sabdfl>  - ?
[16:18] <sabdfl> mailing lists?
[16:18] <jsgotangco> probably mailing lists
[16:18] <popey> pre-selected apps such as drupal
[16:18] <somerville32> sabdfl, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html
[16:18] <doctormo> database? scripting?
[16:18] <effie_jayx> planets
[16:18] <popey> shell accounts are less abundant
[16:18] <sabdfl> somerville32: doesn't say what is actually offered, and if there is any promise of a particular SLA
[16:18] <popey> and less required for many people
[16:18] <smurf> Still, even if the team doesn't have "free" time, four months is a bit much
[16:19] <dholbach> jsgotangco: mailing lists are hopefully going to be dealt with in a more fluent fashion once the Loco Council is up and running
[16:19] <sabdfl> ideally, we should use LP to enforce access, via openid and ssh, and team membership
[16:19] <jsgotangco> my opinion is that community driven sites should be managed by community - the problem though is that it didn't work as expected so it resulted to compromised servers
[16:19] <sabdfl> mailing lists will also shortly be in LP
[16:19] <doctormo> sabdfl: that's good to hear
[16:19] <somerville32> sabdfl, James describes what Canonical is offering to loco teams: ~"shell accounts, no root access, pre-selected list of apps, no CGIs"
[16:20] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: +1, the choice in that mail was clear: do it yourself at your own risk and cost, or use the service canonical provides, which will come with some constraints
[16:20] <sabdfl> somerville32: there's no SLA there
[16:20] <sabdfl> though "full sysadmin support" does sound attractive ;-)
[16:20] <sabdfl> but i happen to know that team is very stretched, and has a backlog internally too
[16:20] <doctormo> There is a problem though, my LoCo mailing list I want lots of users to join and recieve updates, but launchpad needs to keep a list of more commited people. currently we try and keep launchpad members to those.
[16:21] <popey> I suspect part of the problem comes from having previously had a good turnaround when the services were provided outside canonical, and the transition to canonical supported has led to a degredation in service?
[16:21] <sabdfl> so i'm not inclined to feel they are letting the community down
[16:21] <sabdfl> doctormo: use different teams, and subteams if you want folks to be able to just be a member in one place
[16:21] <sabdfl> popey: degradation == thus-far-unhacked?
[16:22] <doctormo> duly noted, good idea
[16:22] <popey> point taken
[16:22] <sabdfl> i will ask james (elmo) if there are obvious things we could do to delegate some activities
[16:22] <sabdfl> like getting mailing lists in LP
[16:22] <sabdfl> i'd like to know what the majority of the RT tickets look like
[16:22] <sabdfl> but i don't have a login in that RT
[16:23] <somerville32> sabdfl, ubuntu : ubuntu
[16:23] <sabdfl> that should be in LP answer-tracker, IMO
[16:23] <popey> there are tickets in there too
[16:23] <popey> (lp)
[16:23] <effie_jayx> it got moved from launchpad...
[16:23] <effie_jayx> to rt I remember
[16:23] <boredandblogging> yeah, tickets should not be made in LP anymore
[16:23] <dholbach> to me it looks like the advent of the Loco Council and mailing lists on LP will resolve a good deal of those issues
[16:24] <jsgotangco> i agree
[16:24] <dholbach> in the meantime it might make sense to try to find out what could be delegated
[16:24] <popey> sabdfl: degredation == lack of communication and no visible delivery of service for _some_ people, would be more accurate
[16:25]  * popey suspects that the proposed loco council could perhaps offload at least _some_ of the workload from system admins at canonical
[16:25] <somerville32> To handle the tickets regarding user accounts, why not utilize the launchpad and the already available lpusers script created by the MOTU team?
[16:25] <popey> clearly not dishing out ssh logons, but _something_?
[16:26] <sabdfl> ok, i will ask james for an update
[16:26] <somerville32> It would result in: a) Management of shell accounts via launchpad group membership b) Mail notification of deletion/addition of accounts to admins c) Point of contact
[16:26] <popey> adding a layer between locos and the system admins might allow us to reduce the number of tickets in their queue
[16:26] <dholbach> shall we move on to the Membership Approval Boards?
[16:26] <sabdfl> are there folks in the loco council who can at least delete, amend and prioritise tickets?
[16:27] <popey> loco council doesn't exist yet does it?
[16:27] <posingaspopular> no
[16:27] <popey> hence "proposed" :)
[16:27] <juliux> i think there is no loco council yet
[16:27] <jono> wrapping up my call...
[16:27]  * popey pokes jono 
[16:27] <dholbach> yes, it's on the agenda for today
[16:27] <jono> back#
[16:27] <sabdfl> i think any members of loco / irc / forums / kubuntu etc councils should be able to amend / prioritise tickets
[16:28] <jono> sorry about that
[16:28] <juliux> dholbach, loco council is there since september nobody remove it from the agenda;)
[16:28] <sabdfl> i'll ask for that
[16:28] <jono> one of the primary aims of the loco council is to delegate resource decisions
[16:28] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams/LoCoCouncil
[16:28] <jono> before my calls this afternoon I was working on a recommended list of members for the council
[16:28] <sabdfl> ok
[16:29] <jono> so I hope to have the recommendation ready in the next week or so
[16:29] <juliux> great
[16:30] <jono> the loco council can also deal with conflict
[16:30] <jono> like other team councils
[16:30] <jono> I think it will help scale the growing loco community
[16:30] <sabdfl>   - The nominees support from at least one active LoCo Team Council member (essential).
[16:30] <sabdfl> doesn't seem to allow for the wholesale firing of a team council
[16:31] <jono> what do you mean sabdfl?
[16:31] <sabdfl> of course we want new members of the team council to fit into the existing council
[16:31] <sabdfl> but
[16:31] <sabdfl> to have that as a blocking condition is weird
[16:32] <sabdfl> we may need to appoint someone to a team council that isn't popular with the existing crew
[16:32] <sabdfl> and this sort of bullet makes that difficult
[16:32] <sabdfl> was that cargo-culted from an existing team council charter?
[16:32] <popey> should it not be "at least one active community council member"?
[16:32] <jono> do you have an example of appointing an unpopular council member, sabdfl?
[16:32] <sabdfl> hard for the CC to appoint someone nobody supports
[16:32] <sabdfl> no, but i also don't have a use case for requiring a team to be self-selecting
[16:32] <jono> right
[16:33] <sabdfl> i would just remove that bullet
[16:33] <sabdfl> nice that this neatly addresses the RT prioritisation issue too
[16:33] <sabdfl> with that bullet removed, +1 from me
[16:33] <jono> sabdfl: I am happy with that
[16:33] <jono> (not that I am on the CC) :P
[16:34] <sabdfl> thoughts, opinions?
[16:34] <dholbach> I'm happy with the proposal: +1 from me
[16:34] <Burgundavia> +1 from me as well
[16:34] <dholbach> it's going to make a big change
[16:34] <TechnoViking> +1 here
[16:34] <dholbach> oh hey Burgundavia :)
[16:34] <jsgotangco> i concur with the bullet removal too
[16:34]  * somerville32 nods.
[16:34] <dholbach> nice, another decision made :)
[16:35] <dholbach> let's move on to the Membership Approval Boards: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StreamlineMembershipApproval
[16:35] <jono> dholbach: :)
[16:35] <jsgotangco> well its the first CC meeting for the new year, we have to start good heh
[16:35] <dholbach> I had a conversation with jono about it today and we found a few points we could discuss now
[16:35] <dholbach> "Outstanding Issues" at the end of that wiki page
[16:36] <jono> yeah, the points raised were some initial concerns I had
[16:37] <dholbach> I believe we agreed on the general spec before, but 1) amount of meetings, 2) possible bottleneck in the CC<->Board reporting and 3) amount of people on the board might be problematic
[16:37] <jsgotangco> bi-weekly would be good as that is our aim in CC
[16:37] <posingaspopular> the point about weekly meetings... bi weekly might work best
[16:38] <dholbach> jsgotangco: New Year's resolution? :-)
[16:38] <sabdfl> two questions
[16:38] <sabdfl> the Governance Review section of the document is a little misplaced
[16:38] <jono> sabdfl: ahhh yes, that is something I felt was not required
[16:38] <sabdfl> it's here because we said "jeez, if we delegate the membership approvals, we will have time to delve into the substantive portions of the project, and this is what we should do with that time"
[16:39] <chuckf> sorry for my late arrival
[16:39] <sabdfl> it's sort of a statement of what folks should expect from the CC once this delegation is rocking
[16:39] <sabdfl> it's nice for an announcement that goes with the setup of the membership approval process
[16:39] <jono> to me the review part should be part of a wider effort, and is not specific to any specific council
[16:39] <sabdfl> yes
[16:39] <dholbach> I believe the original intention of it was to make sure we have no disconnect between the CC and those Boards - in that case I believe a public and regular reporting plus a escalation process to the CC might work better
[16:40] <jono> exactly
[16:40] <sabdfl> we should get folks (lead by Dennis and Daniel and Jono) to propose "things the CC needs to talk about" on a pretty systematic basis
[16:40] <jono> team reporting should resolve part of this concern - reporting in my mind should be a council requirement
[16:40] <jono> sabdfl: indeed
[16:40] <sabdfl> the conversations should be more interesting, make for more interesting coverage in UWN and elsewhere
[16:40] <juliux> did we realy need an other council to approve members? i think we have a lot of councils allready
[16:40] <sabdfl> could be external things too, like how we are doing w.r.t. Debian, and upstreams
[16:40] <sabdfl> like kernel etc
[16:40] <sabdfl> interesting stuff
[16:41] <jono> I agreew
[16:41] <sabdfl> juliux: we need a more efficient process, w.r.t. time zones
[16:41] <jono> I think this would be useful as part of the general team council structure - councils raise "hot button" issues with the CC
[16:41] <sabdfl> i would actually expect more memberships to be attained via specific project teams like kubuntu and edubuntu
[16:41] <sabdfl> perhaps we don't express that pathway enough in the docs
[16:42] <jono> I think approvals via team councils make sense, but it makes sense to have generalist membership councils like this
[16:42] <sabdfl> "you can become a member by becoming a member of any of these teams: MOTU, IRC Council, Forums Moderators etc"
[16:42] <sabdfl> jono: +1 too
[16:42] <jono> the key thing is in ensuring that the membership process is clear so any council can effectively judge
[16:42] <sabdfl> second question i had was about quorum
[16:42] <sabdfl> i am a little nervous about back-room approvals of buddies
[16:43] <sabdfl> i.e. 3 guys on the regional approval team just agree to +1 someone
[16:43] <jsgotangco> that's a valid concern
[16:43] <jono> this is a potential risk with any council
[16:43] <jono> although geographic placement does increase the risk
[16:43] <jono> same loco teams, conferences etc mean people get to meet physically and develop alliances
[16:43] <sabdfl> would be better if there was a requirement that each +1 be at least raised in a regular meeting
[16:44] <PriceChild> sabdfl, about that "you can become a member..." sentence - perhaps changing that to the council rather than being part of the team they govern.
[16:44] <PriceChild> *applying to the council
[16:44] <jono> oh hang on, sabdfl, do you mean that people may just approve people offline?
[16:44] <sabdfl> in other words, if someone cannot attend a regular meeting, they can get 3 folks to say "cool i am +1" but that still needs to be raised in aregular meeting, the three folks need to say +1, and IF someone else raises a question, they can resolve it between them then
[16:44] <jono> I would suggest its a requirement that all approvals are done in meetings
[16:45] <dholbach> we could require approval boards to send full reports (with logs, etc) to the CC or make them publically available and there's a period where the CC can object to any of those
[16:45] <ScottK> How about a team mailing list as an alternative?
[16:45] <sabdfl> jono: for now, at least, there should be many meetings per week at many different times, MUCH harder to imagine someone can't make *any* meeting
[16:45] <ScottK> We did that once for a Kubuntu member who couldn't make it to the meeting and it worked well and was very transparent.
[16:45] <sabdfl> cool
[16:45] <popey> dholbach: it's a bit nasty to have someone approved then rejected
[16:45] <jono> in my mind the major benefit of our governance is that members are judged before a panel, and people can raise objections if required
[16:46] <sabdfl> popey: it would not be approved till it's approved
[16:46] <popey> well yes, double approval
[16:46] <ScottK> With a suitable comment period, a ML supports that.
[16:46] <sabdfl> the folks could say "i will +1 you, other folks may want to discuss it with you or chat to you in person"
[16:46] <jono> sabdfl: I would also suggest that attending your approval meeting is a requirement for approval :P
[16:46] <popey> multi-level approval rather
[16:46] <jsgotangco> +1 to jono
[16:46] <kjcole> totally off the wall, but... with webapps does everything have to be done in real-time?  (I mean stockholders can mail in their votes when they cannot attend meetings...)
[16:46] <sabdfl> popey: no, CC would not review these before addition in LP, only review summaries
[16:46] <chuckf> jono the problem is time zones and work schedules much as the problem with me is currently
[16:46] <dholbach> popey: it's what we have for becoming ubuntu-core-dev right now: a recommendation by the MOTU Council, then a discussion with the Technical Board
[16:47] <popey> ok
[16:47] <sabdfl> actually initially, they will require that CC add them
[16:47] <jono> chuckf: this is why we are doing this - regional timezones
[16:47] <popey> makes more sense
[16:47] <sabdfl> ok, so:
[16:47] <jsgotangco> there is a reason why we are doing it geographically
[16:47] <jono> and I would still recommend varied timeslots - so if in the US there is a meeting in the morning, the next in eve etc - then it makes it simple
[16:47] <sabdfl>  - you are required to attend your approval
[16:47] <PriceChild> popey, I don't like the idea of someone being deferred by the cc, then going through someone else without either knowing which isn't as mad as it sounds
[16:47] <sabdfl>  - it must happen at a scheduled time
[16:47] <dholbach> The proposal planned to have 6 months of supervisory mode anyway.
[16:47] <sabdfl> PriceChild: we would pick that up, i think
[16:48] <sabdfl> +1 from me with those clarifications
[16:48] <jono> sabdfl: spot on
[16:48] <jono> are we happy with 10 council members?
[16:48] <jono> I thought was a quite a lot
[16:48] <popey> thats quite a pool
[16:49] <juliux> it should be an odd number
[16:49] <dholbach> I agree - it's harder to have a quorum
[16:49] <chuckf> I'd like an odd number to break deadlocks
[16:49] <popey> dholbach: depends what you set the quorum at
[16:49] <jono> it worries me we can maintain the quality with such a high number of members required
[16:49] <JanC> quorum doesn't have to be 50% ?
[16:49] <dholbach> popey: right
[16:49] <juliux> so you can't have a dead lock
[16:50] <popey> make it 7, and 50% quorum, get matt revell to be the half a person ;)
[16:50] <no0tic> how would members be appointed?
[16:50] <dholbach> poor mrevell
[16:50] <sabdfl> the meetings will have variable numbers
[16:50] <jono> popey: heh, he is sat opposite me...on a high chair :)
[16:50] <jsgotangco> a quorum should consist of members in neighboring timezones as to fulfill the geographical separation of the council
[16:50] <sabdfl> i think anyone of the regional council at a meeting can veto a person
[16:50] <sabdfl> it's got to be consensual
[16:51] <johnc4510-laptop> would there be a problem with having one CC member sit in on loco team council meeting for oversight
[16:51] <sabdfl> quorum just means "minimum +1's"
[16:51] <sabdfl> johnc4510-laptop: don't want to require that, we will review and approve before they are added to the teams, at least initially
[16:51] <johnc4510-laptop> kk
[16:51] <jono> sabdfl: like I say, my only concern was finding 10 good quality council members for a region
[16:51] <jono> I would prefer few members that we have complete confidence in
[16:51] <popey> 10 per region, not 10 total?
[16:52] <sabdfl> jono: let's say "at least 7" ?
[16:52] <jono> sabdfl: sounds good to me
[16:52] <sabdfl> or just take that out, state the minimum, and get going
[16:52] <dholbach> ok, great - it'll be great to have these in place
[16:52] <jono> good stuff
[16:53] <sabdfl> alrighty, i have 7 minutes left
[16:53] <jono> so are the CC happy with the changes we have discussed?
[16:53] <sabdfl> +1
[16:53] <dholbach> +1 from me too
[16:53] <TechnoViking> +1 for me
[16:53] <jsgotangco> +1 from mee as well
[16:53] <jono> :)
[16:53] <dholbach> rock and roll
[16:53] <sabdfl> SUPER!
[16:53] <sabdfl> folks, do you realise what this means?
[16:54] <sabdfl> short, fun, contentious CC meetings :-D
[16:54] <dholbach> :-)
[16:54] <posingaspopular> it means sabdfl can ride around his rocke instead of CC meetings
[16:54] <sabdfl> for example, we've just done 4 items that are of the caliber we *should* be tackling, in 1 hour
[16:54] <jono> sabdfl: bring it on :)
[16:54] <popey> \o/
[16:54] <sabdfl> this rocks!
[16:54] <Burgundavia> yay
[16:54] <sabdfl> on that note, i must prep for another call
[16:54] <sabdfl> :-(
[16:54] <jono> sabdfl: later skater :)
[16:54] <jsgotangco> heh
[16:54] <sabdfl> thanks dholbach, jono for steering us forward on those delegations
[16:55] <jsgotangco> catch you later
[16:55] <chuckf> I thought this was the community council meeting
[16:55] <popey> chuckf: it is
[16:55] <mrevell> popey: I'll get you one of these days.
[16:55] <popey> hehe
[16:55] <chuckf> what about team approval?
[16:56] <jsgotangco> we're not done yet
[16:56] <chuckf> ah
[16:56] <chuckf> sorry
[16:56] <jono> chuckf: too much gatorade?
[16:56] <chuckf> I'm getting pulled into another meeting in a minute or two
[16:56] <jsgotangco> ok let's move on
[16:57] <jsgotangco> team denmark
[16:57] <chuckf> can we do team maryland?
[16:57] <chuckf> or I can come back later
[16:57] <jsgotangco> are supports of Danish Team around
[16:57] <jsgotangco> if not we'll move to Maryland
[16:58] <chuckf> if it's going to be longer than 2 minutes, I gotta come back
[16:58] <juliux> gnomonic ist not here
[16:58] <jsgotangco> fine no one from the danish team
[16:58] <jsgotangco> chuckf: go nuts
[16:59] <chuckf> well we have the app page, I thought this was going to be me answering questions
[16:59] <chuckf> we're almost a year old. we've had decent progress and events
[17:00] <chuckf> we have 4 or fve things in the pipeline for promoting Ubuntu right now
[17:00] <dholbach> chuckf: what do you think is the most challenging item on your roadmap?
[17:00] <jsgotangco> there seems to be good communication going sa there are regular meetings
[17:00] <chuckf> we have a good solid core of team members that keep movving things forward
[17:00] <chuckf> dholbach the most challenging thing is convincing people that Linux is a good viable alternative
[17:01] <chuckf> and keeping people interested and not just being passive in the group
[17:01] <juliux> chuckf, how much people attend your real life meetings?
[17:02] <chuckf> we have regular meetings and are discussing expanding mettings to other areas fo the state as some travel up o 45 minutes to attends
[17:02] <chuckf> juliux about 7-10 on average
[17:02] <juliux> cool
[17:02] <chuckf> and then for events we get better turnouts
[17:03] <jsgotangco> is anyone else from team maryland here?
[17:03] <chuckf> not at the moment
[17:03] <chuckf> and I have to go to a meeting, sorry
[17:03] <chuckf> I'll be back as I can
[17:03] <JanC> or people who know their activities?
[17:03] <dholbach> ok, we'll get back to chuckf then
[17:03] <kjcole> DC here.  I can say they helped out at one of our installfests.
[17:04] <dholbach> is somebody of the Colombia team here?
[17:04] <kjcole> (JanC: A bit of cross-LoCo work.)
[17:05] <jsgotangco> dholbach: let's move to candidates
[17:05] <dholbach> ok
[17:05] <jsgotangco> i can't stay long either, i have a plane to catch in 4 hours tee hee
[17:05] <dholbach> deadwill, demrit, paulliu, forlong, ricardoperez are not around
[17:05] <dholbach> juliux: you are on the list? :)
[17:06] <juliux> dholbach, i think you can remove forlong;)
[17:06] <juliux> dholbach, yes i am;)
[17:06] <dholbach> juliux: you want to get your membership renewed?
[17:06] <juliux> yes i want;)
[17:06] <dholbach> I believe you can do this on your own in LP :)
[17:06] <jsgotangco> its self service renewal!
[17:06] <juliux> my last one expired last year november, but i don't like the renew it yourself process
[17:06] <jsgotangco> unless you would like the floor
[17:07] <jsgotangco> ahh principled!
[17:07] <dholbach> ok... I'm all +1 for it
[17:07] <juliux> jsgotangco, yes
[17:07] <juliux> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuliusBloch that is my wikipage;)
[17:07] <jsgotangco> please feel free to give your piece now!
[17:08] <jsgotangco> eh?
[17:09] <dholbach> juliux_ is a^Wthe driving force behind the German Loco :)
[17:09] <dholbach> jsgotangco, TechnoViking, Burgundavia?
[17:09] <jsgotangco> "Treasure of the german ubuntu association"
[17:09] <juliux_> sorry disconnect
[17:09] <juliux_> what was my last lineß
[17:09] <juliux_> ?
[17:09] <juliux_> dholbach, i am one of a bigger group;)
[17:10] <juliux_> jsgotangco, yes i have the job for the next two years again;)
[17:10] <dholbach> jsgotangco: I'm sure that is supposed to mean "Treasurer" :)
[17:10] <jsgotangco> yeah
[17:10] <juliux_> ohh
[17:10] <Burgundavia> +1 from me, renewal is pretty straightforward
[17:10] <jsgotangco> but that's fine!
[17:10] <jsgotangco> a treasure is still good
[17:10] <jsgotangco> +1
[17:10] <dholbach> :-)
[17:11] <dholbach> technoviking seems to have vanished
[17:11] <juliux_> jsgotangco, thanks fixed
[17:11] <jsgotangco> i cannot stay long too
[17:11] <dholbach> that doesn't make it exactly easy
[17:11] <tritium> If I may suggest, gcleric has a few supporters here.  May he state his case?
[17:12] <jsgotangco> who else is up for membership
[17:12] <tritium> We have taken time off work to be here for him because we feel strongly about his application.
[17:12] <posingaspopular> i am!
[17:12] <greg-g> and I
[17:12] <warp10> jsgotangco: me too!
[17:12] <johnc4510-laptop> so is tyche
[17:12] <whellinga> I am too
[17:12] <posingaspopular> tritium: me too for myself ;p
[17:12] <juliux> thxs jsgotangco Burgundavia and dholbach for the +1;)
[17:12] <leoquant> me too
[17:12] <jsgotangco> dholbach: i can sit in 15 mins more but that's it
[17:13] <gcleric> we'll make is qucik....
[17:13] <dholbach> it's a bit though without quorum
[17:13] <boredandblogging> fyi, the danish team has already been approved
[17:13] <SWAT> jsgotangco, if you follow the member candidates list, you'll notice quite some people missing.
[17:13] <dholbach> it's just jsgotangco, Burgundavia and me
[17:13] <dholbach> thanks boredandblogging
[17:14] <jsgotangco> Steven Harper
[17:14] <jsgotangco> Alessio Treglia
[17:14] <no0tic> alessio treglia is not here atm
[17:14] <jsgotangco> Jussi Schultink
[17:15] <jussi01> Im here
[17:15] <jsgotangco> there
[17:15] <Seeker``> woo for jussi01!!
[17:15]  * Pici cheers
[17:15] <jussi01> pastebomb
[17:15] <jussi01> Hi, Im Jussi Schultink, and I work with the Ubuntu Studio team, IRC and Kubuntu. My main areas of contribution are to IRC and forum support, packaging, bug reporting and fixing. I have been with the ubuntu studio team since around feb 07. I am an operator on #kubuntu and #ubuntustudio and try to contribute help wherever I can on these and other channels. I also manage the Ubuntu Studio Users and Devel mailing lists. I am a motu mentoree, (unde
[17:15] <jsgotangco> go!
[17:16] <Seeker``> That got cut off for me - I didn't see anything past "motu mentoree, (unde"
[17:16] <jussi01> (under persia's helpful guidance) and while I have had to leave some of my packaging work for the last few months things have quietened down so that I can now continue with that. My lp https://edge.launchpad.net/~jussi01 is and my wiki page is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiSchultink
[17:17] <jsgotangco> hmm
[17:17] <jsgotangco> we don't have quorum now
[17:17] <jsgotangco> how is your MOTU progress?
[17:18] <dholbach> It seems you uploaded a few packages already: https://launchpad.net/~jussi01/+packages
[17:18] <jussi01> jsgotangco: unfortunately persia is not here, but its been a little slow as mentioned. I have a couple of universe pckages and Im working on some more
[17:18] <jsgotangco> its still a good start
[17:18] <_MMA_> Id like to give a big +1 to Jussi's work on Ubuntu Studio. He has been a great help to the team and has been great at support on IRC and Ubuntu Forums.
[17:19] <jussi01> Im also working with persia and learning the other facets of MOTU'ing but as mentioned schedules have prevented a lot of that till now
[17:20] <jsgotangco> I'm pretty happy with the progress
[17:20] <jpatrick> I'd like give jussi01 another big +1 for his Kubuntu op work
[17:20] <jsgotangco> +1 for me
[17:20] <posingaspopular> jussi01 is always in #kubuntu and helping out. he answers all the questions before me. i think Jucato will agree
[17:20] <dholbach> I'm happy to give a +1, but as we don't have a quorum, we could do the rest of this approval by email.
[17:20] <jsgotangco> but unfortunately we don't have quorum
[17:20] <Burgundavia> +1 for me, but yes
[17:20] <jsgotangco> so I'm sorry to say we'll hvae to end this meeting with jussi01
[17:21] <Jucato> I agree (about jussi01 :D)
[17:21] <ardchoille> +1 from me for jussi01
[17:21] <dholbach> jussi01: can you mail this email conversation to the community council mailing list with the request for approval?
[17:21] <tritium> jsgotangco: when will the remaining applicants be re-scheduled?
[17:21] <SWAT> jsgotangco, can I at least support whellinga and leoquant? (for the record)
[17:21] <bbartek> I came here to support leoquant for his great work on the dutch forum (he's a moderator of this forum and biggest spammer 7.756 posts) and wiki documentation +1
[17:21]  * tritium will take more vacation from work to support gcleric 
[17:21] <jussi01> dholbach: of course
[17:22] <Seeker``> there should be a member-approval only meeting
[17:22] <dholbach> tritium: sorry for that :-/
[17:22] <dholbach> Seeker``: that's why we discussed the membership approval boards today
[17:22] <tritium> dholbach: no worries
[17:22] <jsgotangco> tritium: we have one scheduled in 2 weeks but to be annoucned yet
[17:22] <dholbach> that's going to make it all a lot easier
[17:22] <nxvl_work> does the Mobile team meeting already started?
[17:22] <Munchkinguy> When is art meeting?
[17:22] <dholbach> nxvl_work: I believe they are in #ubuntu-mobile
[17:22] <dholbach> @now
[17:22] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:22:41 - Current meeting: Community Council
[17:22] <PriceChild> nxvl, /topic
[17:22] <jsgotangco> ok i gotta go
[17:22] <dholbach> ok... meeting adjourned
[17:22] <jsgotangco> thanks
[17:22] <dholbach> thanks everybody
[17:22] <whellinga> tnx
[17:22] <jussi01> thanks all
[17:23] <juliux> thanks all
[17:23] <Seeker``> dholbach: ah, I missed that
[17:23] <nxvl_work> oh so we are still on CC meeting?
[17:23]  * effie_jayx cheers for jussi01 
[17:23] <bbartek> and i came also to give my support for whellinga for his great event the Gutsy Release Party
[17:24] <leoquant> is this meeting over?
[17:25] <tritium> Yes, adjourned at 10:22
[17:25] <Burgundavia> yes, we are done
[17:25] <tritium> well, three minutes ago
[17:35] <no0tic> @now
[17:35] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:35:28 - Next meeting: Art Team in 24 minutes
[17:40] <Kver> If this were a theatre, right now some guy would be cleaning popcorn and sticky stuff from around the room.
[17:49] <lapo> hi
[17:49] <Who_> hi
[17:50] <chuckf> so the CC meeting is over?
[17:50] <jpatrick> chuckf: ages ago
[17:50] <chuckf> ah well
[17:50] <soren> Well... Half an hour or so ago.
[17:51] <chuckf> I'm off to work then
[17:58] <kwwii> hi all, everyone here?
[17:58] <encompass> howdy, at least I am :P
[17:58] <kwwii> for the art team meeting, I mean :-)
[17:58] <andreasn> hi
[17:58] <Who_> hi
[17:58] <Kver> Ello
[17:58] <elohel> echo
[18:00] <kwwii> ok, let's get going we have a bit to discuss
[18:00] <encompass> ok
[18:00] <kwwii> how does this thing work again....let's see how big of a fool I can make of myself
[18:00] <kwwii> #startmeeting
[18:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is kwwii.
[18:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:01] <Kver> That seemed fairly easy... Too easy.
[18:01] <andreasn> I forgot all about the commands since last time as well :)
[18:01] <kwwii> hehe, it is deceptively easy to forget
[18:01] <kwwii> anyone have anything we need to add to the agenda or something to bring up now before we start on the agenda?
[18:01] <encompass> yes I do
[18:02] <encompass> :)
[18:02] <kwwii> encompass: please, go ahead
[18:02] <encompass> at least I just emailed it so you may not have it...
[18:02] <kwwii> nothing yet
[18:02] <andreasn> url to the agenda?
[18:03] <Kver> MeMaker, corrent?
[18:03] <Kver> *correct
[18:03] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
[18:03] <andreasn> thanks!
[18:03] <kwwii> np
[18:03] <Kver> see, no speelcak.
[18:03] <somerville32> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
[18:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
[18:03] <encompass> I am the creator of a program called memaker, we need artwork for it.  Beings it is hopefully going into the next ubuntu live cd and part of the ubuntu desktop we the memaker team feel it is important to get themed artowrk for memaker.
[18:03] <kwwii> ahhh, yes, MeMaker
[18:03] <encompass> there :D
[18:04] <encompass> kwwii good, at least someone knows it here... :D
[18:04] <kwwii> Thorsten started working on one head
[18:04] <kwwii> hehe, macslow showed it to me when we were looking into the new gdm stuff
[18:04] <kwwii> pretty important for us, so yes, we do need to get some nice pics to include
[18:05] <kwwii> encompass: should we send any interested parties directly to you?
[18:05] <Who_> encompass: have you had any response so far form your mail to the list?
[18:05] <encompass> kwwii yeah... and for now we have a great theme to start with... cocohead... but everyone is free to make what they like if they ahve something else they want to try
[18:05] <encompass> yes, we have a very active list...
[18:05] <encompass> let me get that...
[18:07] <encompass> http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
[18:07] <encompass> there
[18:07] <kwwii> encompass: one good thing to point to would be some instructions on what one needs to be care of when working on this stuff
[18:07] <CpidWolf> Hi, sorry i'm late, can someone summup what you are talking about ? =) thanks.
[18:08] <encompass> yeah... a good place to start would be...
[18:08] <encompass> http://launchpad.net/memaker/
[18:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/memaker/
[18:08] <encompass> it has all relevent links there
[18:08] <kwwii> CupidWolf: we are just about to start going through the agenda, talking about getting some pics for MeMaker
[18:08] <encompass> including general instructions on how to make a themed set
[18:09] <CupidWolf> okay, thank you
[18:09] <kwwii> encompass: we might want to add a part to our wiki about this stuff with the links, contact info, etc
[18:09] <encompass> ok what page would you like me to add that to?
[18:09] <Who_> encompass: I was thinking when I asked about lists of whether the ubuntu-artwork list had produced anything yet...
[18:10] <zLox> Hi there. Please decide to ditch Launchpad. It is proprietary and evil!
[18:10] <encompass> Who_: nope... nothing
[18:10] <kwwii> hrm, not sure...let me see
[18:10] <encompass> Actually I think I kind of lost in the mess
[18:11] <zLox> Evil, I tell thee!
[18:11] <encompass> It not to hard to get started in memaker... and themes are made in inkscape
[18:12] <_MMA_> encompass: Has it been packaged yet?
[18:12] <kwwii> I guess for a start we could put something in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate
[18:12] <encompass> _MMA_: jsut finishing that... should be ready in a few days
[18:12] <kwwii> ok, let's get to the agenda before it gets too late
[18:12] <_MMA_> k
[18:13] <thorwil> plop!
[18:13] <encompass> thorwil: hey there...
[18:13] <kwwii> TOPIC Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:13] <kwwii> TOPIC: Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:13] <kwwii> erm
[18:13] <Kver> try the []'s
[18:13] <encompass> thorwil: has been working on some art
[18:13] <kwwii> [TOPIC) Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:13] <somerville32> [TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:13] <kwwii> oh come on
[18:14] <lapo> kwwii: you really need to learn how to use that bot :-)
[18:14] <Kver> Should I make my lord of the rings reference?
[18:14] <somerville32> ...
[18:14] <kwwii> steph_: no, not that
[18:14] <steph_> =) : /topic
[18:14] <steph_> oops.
[18:14] <somerville32> kwwii, type what I typed
[18:14] <thorwil> encompass: i will work on it some more :)  getting worried about how long it atkes, though
[18:14] <encompass> there we go
[18:14] <Kver> You missed the second square bracket.
[18:14] <kwwii> lol
[18:14] <Kver> huzzah!
[18:15] <kwwii> [TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
[18:15] <encompass> thorwil: your working on the life like one right?
[18:15] <kwwii> w00t
[18:15] <thorwil> encompass: yes
[18:15] <encompass> thorwil: as nice at it is... I don't think that is "themed" enough for ubuntu
[18:16] <thorwil> encompass: let's talk about that another time, gotta be ontopic here ;)
[18:16] <kwwii> so, in case anyone has not seen the blueprints or heard the news from the mailing list we will not be radically changing Hardy themeing because it is the last in the LTS cycle
[18:16] <kwwii> Hardy+1 will be the first version with a totally different theme
[18:16] <kwwii> this does not mean that we should not be working on this stuff now though
[18:16] <Who_> kwwii: so do we plan to start developing that theme now
[18:16] <Who_> ?
[18:17] <Who_> (kwwii - using the mootbot, can we all suggest 'ideas, or is that for you?)
[18:17] <kwwii> we need to get a very good idea of where we want to go now and with Hardy change a few things to show direction and get things together so that we can really start changing things with a plan over a longer time
[18:17] <kwwii> Who_: no idea
[18:17] <kwwii> try it
[18:17] <encompass> if anyone want to continue talking about memaker hope into ubuntu-artwork and we can talk more there
[18:18] <Who_> [IDEA] We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
[18:18] <MootBot> IDEA received:  We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
[18:18] <Who_> 6 months seems a very short time for a complete rethink
[18:18] <kwwii> Who_: exactly, that is the plan but it should be clear that such radical changes will not be included in HArdy
[18:18] <steph_> ok so Hardy won't have the brand new theme announced on the Web ?
[18:18] <damianvila> [IDEA] Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
[18:18] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
[18:19] <kwwii> Who_: doing things on a strictly 6month cycle is like reinventing the wheel every 6 months when there is only so many ways to draw a circle
[18:19] <Who_> damianvilla: that's a good idea but the NEW theme should be at the beginning of the LTS cycle
[18:19] <damianvila> *polish, sorry
[18:19] <Who_> kwwii: I agree :)
[18:19] <kwwii> damianvila: yes, the plan is that the LTS ends a cycle so in between we will have more major changes which we will polish until that cycle ends with it'S LTS
[18:20] <Who_> damianvilla: that way when we get to the LTS release it is polished and beautiful
[18:20] <Kver> On short-term releases, we try new stuff; On long-term releases, we polish...
[18:20] <kwwii> exactly
[18:20] <Kver> I'm smurt.
[18:20] <zLox> [IDEA] We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
[18:20] <MootBot> IDEA received:  We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
[18:20] <somerville32> zLox,please stop
[18:20] <kwwii> as far as icons go, we have so much to do that there is no real break yet
[18:20] <Who_> kwwii: so then, what are the main targets for polish THIS release - can they go on in the background of a bigger redesign for the NEXT release?
[18:20] <Kver> He'd hate my toaster, it's proprietary.
[18:20] <Kver> Burns toast.
[18:20] <steph_> :D
[18:21] <kwwii> Who_: some parts of it, yes
[18:21] <zLox> just the truh
[18:21] <kwwii> for this release we should look into changing the wallpaper, tweaking the theme with some new elements
[18:21] <steph_> +1
[18:21] <kallepersson> +1
[18:21] <kwwii> I would like to see the work on the panel icons get pretty far
[18:22] <steph_> we've GOT to change those wallpapers
[18:22] <somerville32> We've already changed the wallpaper :P
[18:22] <somerville32> Albeit Alpha 3 may not have one at all :P
[18:22] <encompass> steph_: Totally agree
[18:22] <andreasn> I had a list with icons that had some issues that could need some tweaks (pixel alignment etc.), but I can't seem to find the list :/
[18:22] <Who_> I think wallpapers should be a bigger priority than panel icons
[18:22] <encompass> agree
[18:22] <Kver> Agreed.
[18:22] <somerville32> Who_, Do you mean extra ones or the default one?
[18:23] <steph_> default one is really, really ugly
[18:23] <encompass> just a default it cool with me
[18:23] <kwwii> Who_: sure, but this would be one point were we know now that we want that kind of thing in Hardy+1 so getting it in now is a step in the right direction
[18:23] <Who_> Because of space on the CD, I think we're always talking about the default, plus a couple of extras
[18:23] <steph_> who's managing the icon theme ?
[18:23] <kwwii> we only include the default and two other wallpapers, iirc
[18:23] <steph_> cause I noticed a few changes in Hardy
[18:23] <Who_> kwwii: yes, good point. hadn't thought of that
[18:23] <somerville32> kwwii, We only include two wallpapers including the default
[18:24] <steph_> the Update available icon is just great
[18:24] <kwwii> steph_: the human icon theme is maintained by the art team (and myself I guess)
[18:24] <Kver> I think we should try to have 3, maybe 4 other wallpapers that are -very- different.
[18:24] <steph_> aren't we the art team ?
[18:24] <kwwii> somerville32: we also include the one dawn of ubuntu or whatever it is called
[18:24] <Who_> Kver: remember that we aren't as free as we can be on what we can put in - space is very limited on teh CD
[18:24] <steph_> yeah
[18:24] <kwwii> steph_: yes
[18:24] <steph_> all right
[18:24] <somerville32> kwwii, ubuntu-wallapers only has two
[18:25] <somerville32> kwwii, Maybe it is provided by a different package?
[18:25] <kwwii> somerville32: right
[18:25] <steph_> I think a really nice one is better than four average
[18:25] <thorwil> ack
[18:25] <Who_> kwwii: will there be any colour tweaking for the Human GTK theme?
[18:25] <Kver> What about the resolution/quality of the file itself?
[18:25] <Jense> I suggest including four nice ones
[18:26] <kwwii> so, my whole point is that we need to keep in mind what we are doing in the next 4months and the next 10+ months, how those two things are part of one plan but still seperate
[18:26] <encompass> I know svg can be hard... but it does save space and looks nice at many resolutions.
[18:26] <kwwii> Who_: yes, I could imagine us changing things a little bit
[18:26] <kwwii> Who_: if needed and we come up with something decent
[18:26] <damianvila> So, Hardy will be a polished Human, right? Maybe witha new wallpaper. Hardy+1 will be a different concept...
[18:27] <kwwii> damianvila: basicaly
[18:27] <encompass> dang ... and bummer but it would be most feasable
[18:27] <steph_> kwwii, I think we still got work to do on the GTK theme, cause I had a look at the Wiki, and none of the theme is good enough, I think
[18:27] <kwwii> we can start to use some of the ideas though
[18:27] <kwwii> like the buttons, or the window deco or such
[18:27] <steph_> yep
[18:27] <kwwii> we can change quite a bit but we do not want this release to feel like something totally new and untested
[18:28] <steph_> sure
[18:28] <kwwii> the point is to know where you want to go in the future and then take little steps toward that
[18:28] <steph_> but we can tweak a few things
[18:28] <kwwii> right
[18:28] <Who_> steph_: you are referring to a NEW theme not being good enough or the current default Human?
[18:28] <andreasn> changing a theme is a very easy way to break all your applications, so it would probably be safest to make tiny or no changes at all for this release on the gtk theme
[18:29] <steph_> which one do you mean by NEW one ?
[18:29] <kwwii> andreasn: right, I can imagine new window decoration buttons, perhaps
[18:29] <kwwii> and tweaking some colors would go a long way
[18:29] <Who_> does anyone know whether Human is compliant with Gnome's new colour change system in the Appearance dialogue? Because if it isnt we should probably fix that as a priority
[18:29] <andreasn> kwwii: sounds sane
[18:29] <steph_> andreasn, I agree, tiny changes
[18:29] <kwwii> Who_: no it is still not
[18:29] <encompass> I want to see something like a new mouse theme too
[18:29] <Who_> steph_: some of the concepts on the wiki
[18:29] <thorwil> i think icon tweaks and new wallpaper are  enough for hardy
[18:29] <lapo> kwwii: window decorations should not be a problem, ui theme probably is
[18:29] <kwwii> we had a pretty good version but some of the colors where just wrong and nobody could make it better
[18:30] <Kver> encompass: IDMZ-Black is nice, we could tweak it for a professional look
[18:30] <steph_> Who_, yeah, there are some ideas we can use, but none of the theme is good enough to be included in Hardy
[18:30] <kwwii> Who_: that is one thing that we should work towards (and it gives us a good reason to tweak some colors) :-)
[18:30] <lapo> Kver: please don't use the word professional look :-)
[18:30] <andreasn> mouse theme is pretty tricky, because the mouse pointer is something that should ideally be as invisible as possible
[18:30] <lapo> it hasno meaning, really :-)
[18:30] <Kver> UI theme is the toughie, since we can't control how people use it. If we make changes to the GTK+, we should keep everything in the same engine/dimensions
[18:30] <Who_> steph_: yea, but Hardy will just be a tweak of existing Human, as per what kwwii has been saying, so they only matter on the 10 month plan :)
[18:31] <kwwii> Kver: right, for this release no major GTK theme engine change
[18:31] <lapo> tweaking gtk engine means lot of testing
[18:31] <steph_> see, a few months ago, I tried many, many themes from Gnome-look, mixed them, tried many thinks, and finally I got back to the Human theme which is, finally, a very good theme
[18:31] <andreasn> ah, found the url again. :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/GutsyIconReview?highlight=(icon)
[18:31] <encompass> kwwii: I agree no new gtk engine
[18:32] <kwwii> and when we change it we will not rename it, it is just a new version even if there are major changes
[18:32] <kwwii> ok, let's get to the next item in the agenda
[18:32] <Kver> Ideally, one thing I think is if we edit anything about the GTK theme, we just make it look cleaner, but keep everything else as-is
[18:32] <lapo> about the gtk theme I'd say to just do small changes here and there to human or use something existing and known to be working with tweaked colors
[18:33] <kwwii> [TOPIC] Art direction
[18:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Art direction
[18:34] <steph_> this topic means what do we want to do precisely in our GTK theme ?
[18:34] <kwwii> before, during and after the holidays I have been working on getting all the pieces in place and signed off so that it really is official
[18:34] <zniavre> roundness menus ?
[18:34] <kwwii> steph_: no, this means that we are talking about the art direction for the next releases
[18:34] <Kver> Down the road.
[18:35] <Kver> ... I think.
[18:35] <kwwii> I have a decent list of answers to some very important questions (audience, message, etc)
[18:35] <kwwii> Kver: right
[18:35] <thorwil> cool
[18:35] <Who_> kwwii: Great :)
[18:35] <kwwii> I have a somewhat decent palette ready which also includes complementary colors
[18:36] <Kver> Really, any changes we make now, should be considered part of the plan for the next X years.
[18:36] <Who_> kwwii: What is the structure for the team planned in the new direction?
[18:36] <kwwii> next week I will be in London again presenting all this information and showing off mockups and finalizing things
[18:36] <Keybuk> week after next?
[18:36] <thorwil> kwwii: we don't get to read it / se it before?
[18:36] <kwwii> Who_: looking at all the great work from the community recently I think that we will be working closesly with all the teams
[18:36] <steph_> we should go simple & elegant.
[18:36] <lapo> kwwii: I hope it goes well with tango palette
[18:37] <kwwii> Keybuk: erm, right...the week after next
[18:37] <kwwii> lapo: this palette would not be the entire palette for the icon theme
[18:37] <Keybuk> you can be in London next week if you like ;) but usually you let your line manager know first <g>
[18:37] <Who_> kwwii: big questions first: is Mark still calling the design shots? If so, how will he be involved along the way. If  not, who is?
[18:38]  * kwwii likes London so much he wants to spend extra time there
[18:38] <lapo> kwwii: sure, but I'm saying that I hope it goes well with it
[18:38] <kwwii> Who_: he and others at canonical are the deciders, most/all info will come through me
[18:38] <kwwii> but it will still be an open process
[18:38]  * Kver is jelious; Kver gets to go to "Cold Lake"
[18:39] <kwwii> Kver: yeah, 3 months of getting up early and jogging - have fun
[18:39] <encompass> Kver: been to cherry grove :P
[18:39] <Kver> :P
[18:39] <Who_> kwwii: so you will regularly report back to find out what direction they like best and guide us in it?
[18:39] <kwwii> lapo: yeah and we will probably have to tweak things to make that work right
[18:39] <kwwii> Who_: yes
[18:39] <kwwii> this ties in well with the theme-team item on the agenda
[18:40] <Who_> kwwii: Indeed.
[18:41] <kwwii> let's bring that topic into this one for a moment
[18:41] <Who_> okie.
[18:41] <lapo> kwwii: good
[18:41] <kwwii> I am all for people getting together and working together...it might help spread information and help people help each other to create a complete theme idea
[18:42] <kwwii> but everyone can still feel free to work in any group form they wish
[18:43] <Who_> kwwii: I think creating some Theme Teams for this release makes sense. It gives us some experience packaging, and making complete themes not just mockups.
[18:43] <kwwii> so if two people have a great idea and want to work through it, they are free to do so
[18:43] <kwwii> Who_: especially when it comes to packaging :-)
[18:43] <Who_> One of the big benefits I see from it is that we don't need the extra layer of design approval that has caused issues in the past
[18:43] <kwwii> Who_: how did you find the experience of working in a theme team in the past?
[18:43] <kwwii> anything we could learn from?
[18:44] <Who_> Well: 1. I am really glad I did it. I feel it was one of the more productive things I have done as part of this team
[18:44] <Who_> 2. It was cool to have people using the theme we'd made
[18:45] <steph_> Who_, sorry, but which theme did you made ?
[18:45] <kwwii> Who_: yeah, while we get lot's of nice ideas people often find it hard to finalze things on their own
[18:45] <kwwii> so working in groups will definitely help with that
[18:45] <Who_> 3. It was difficult to run it truly as a theme team. I had planned that it would be very collaborative. But in the end I ended up calling the design shots. I think that is the way it _needs_ to happen for a complete, cohesive theme
[18:45] <Who_> steph_ I made hte Blubuntu theme
[18:46] <steph_> let me find it...
[18:46] <kwwii> Who_: I think that with the theme team idea there are some people who are better at some things, etc.
[18:46] <Who_> indeed - Pingunz made the GDM much better than I would have done in Blubuntu :)
[18:46] <kwwii> that is natural in any art project that one person tends to form the ideas
[18:46] <steph_> Who_, nice work ;)
[18:46] <kwwii> looking at the wiki it should not be too hard to get some teams together
[18:47] <Kver> It almost makes teams that run like miniature Apple design teams, by the sounds of it.
[18:47] <Who_> kwwii: Well, I think we struggle at the moment to find anyone to be IN a team or to lead them - not many people have stepped up after the email I wrote suggesting it
[18:47] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate is packed with good ideas, I think that if we took a couple of the popular ones and got people together it would be a good start
[18:48] <Who_> kwwii: great - I agree
[18:48] <Who_> kwwii: Troy suggest Launchpadding the theme team idea. Shall I do that?
[18:48] <kwwii> [ACT]
[18:48] <kwwii> ahhh
[18:48] <_MMA_> Who_: Ill hop in once a team is formed around a particular concept.
[18:48] <lapo> kwwii: most of the theme I see there are pretty impossible to do with current gtk, we'd need hackers
[18:49] <kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
[18:49] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
[18:49] <_MMA_> lapo: On that note, who is keeping track of the technical capabilities of say GNOME and Compiz to make sure we are creating things its actually capable of doing?
[18:49] <kwwii> lapo: this is the long term idea we are looking for, not the specifics or an implemented thing
[18:49] <Who_> kwwii: Can I suggest that I think it is important that we encourage people to think of themes that aren't hugley like the defualt theme
[18:49] <steph_> lapo, first they can't be realized, second I don't think they are really good
[18:49] <kwwii> _MMA_: my colleagues in the desktop team like macslow
[18:50] <kwwii> I ask him for permission after I make a mockup :-)
[18:50] <steph_> there are good ideas, but they can't do the next default theme
[18:50] <Who_> steph_: There's a solution to that ;)
[18:50] <lapo> steph_: there are some ideas I like
[18:50] <steph_> yeah, me too
[18:50] <steph_> well, let's see
[18:50] <steph_> what do you think about the Union Mockup ?
[18:50] <steph_> well, not quite the topic, in fact.
[18:50] <lapo> some elemts are good, but the mockup is pretty generic
[18:51] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure so the theme team leaders will need to liaise with MacSlow.
[18:51] <Kver> It was made to be -very- generic...
[18:51] <damianvila> Artwork should be in sync with the release's technical constrains, I think
[18:51] <kwwii> when it comes down to every little thing that we cannot do now we will have to keep in contact with those people, and actually that is part of my job
[18:51] <lapo> Kver: I mean few gtk widget themed
[18:51] <lapo> widgets
[18:51] <Who_> kwwii: in your eyes, are these theme teams aiming for Hardy or Hardy+1?
[18:51] <kwwii> so much of this information can come through me (but not all of it has to)
[18:52] <kwwii> Who_: Hardy+1
[18:52] <_MMA_> Who_: I think it should be up to the team to decide.
[18:52] <kwwii> there are some very good ideas out there and we need to look at what we can do now, in the short term and what we can do in the long term
[18:52] <kwwii> but without these ideas down on papaer we cannot get anywhere other than another bad version of where we already were
[18:52] <Kver> If we look long-term, very much like OSX, we should look at a goal and figure out how to reasonably built to that goal over several releases.
[18:53] <steph_> kwwii, is there any theme on the Wiki which is looking really good to you ?
[18:53] <andreasn> I think it would be pretty nice seeing some of those gtk themes implemented, always interesting to see how far you can push gtk
[18:53] <Who_> kwwii: indeed. When the themeteams were lat run, we were aiming to provide some easy to get alternatives to the default.... It wasn't supposed to be super flashy, it was supposed to be good design with what we had.
[18:54] <kwwii> steph_: I found interesting ideas in several of them, I'll get to that a bit later
[18:55] <Who_> kwwii: I also see theme teams as an important way to democratise the art available in Ubuntu - with the default theme _ultimately_ at the behest of canonical, there is a limit to how much a team can contribute.
[18:55] <steph_> and by the way, working with a team is much more motivating
[18:55] <Who_> but with community developed themes we can get more contributions _into Ubuntu_ from more people
[18:56] <kwwii> Who_: yes, if the information flows both ways and is shown to the deciders in the right form and manner
[18:56] <kwwii> I would really like to see as many community made themes as possible packaged
[18:56] <kwwii> and I hate to see people get hung up on the default theme
[18:56] <_MMA_> Who_: Exactly. Once one stops trying to be the default its alot easier to get a theme package into Ubuntu.
[18:57]  * _MMA_ has even rolled a live disk using Blubuntu. ;)
[18:58] <Who_> agreed. It feels to me often like the artwork team stumbles because we have so many people working towards _one_ thing that is decided by very few.
[18:58] <kwwii> there is no one person who decides on the default theme so people should not think like "I made that theme" or "he made that theme" as there are really a lot of people involved with lots and lots of pieces
[18:58] <kwwii> over a long time, really
[18:58] <damianvila> But whoever wants to do it's own theme doesn't need to come here to discuss anything, right? He/She just need to build it and show it to the rest...
[18:58] <Who_> kwwii: so you don't feel that you are limited in what you can realisticly present to canonical?
[18:59] <kwwii> damianvila: if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme
[18:59] <kwwii> Who_: oh, I am certainly limited...I am not going to show any crack artwork and push it
[19:00] <kwwii> but I think that the sky is the limit with good ideas
[19:00] <Who_> Can I point out, I don't think that the limited control over the default is any failing of the art team, or it's running - it is the way it has to be :)
[19:00] <Who_> kwwii: cool!
[19:00] <lapo> kwwii: good ideas are nothing without anyone implementing/working on them tho :-)
[19:01] <Who_> I notice they were looking for a 'Conceptual Human Interface Designer'  a while back - does that impact us for Hardy +1? Who is it?
[19:01] <Who_> (they being Canonical)
[19:01] <_MMA_> kwwii: "if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme" Sure but you have to admit that the "theme team" idea has come from people feeling too restricted by working with the default process.
[19:01] <Munchkinguy> Speaking of alternate themes, I'd like to point out that art.ubuntu.com doesn't exist anymore.
[19:01] <kwwii> lapo: good ideas tend to get implemented one way or the other and if we decide that we want to do something I am sure we will work towards it if it is possible
[19:02] <kwwii> _MMA_: not sure I get you
[19:02] <lapo> kwwii: yeah, sure that wasn't my point, but no probs
[19:02] <kwwii> _MMA_: I think it is simply overwhelming for most people to create an entire theme on their own
[19:03] <steph_> kwwii, hey, what about the art.ubuntu.com  ?
[19:03] <steph_> didn't you say it'll be back ?
[19:03] <lapo> steph_: do you feel it is really needed?
[19:03] <steph_> don't know, never seen how it is
[19:03] <kwwii> steph_: yes, it should be coming, we are waiting for the code to get through the approval process
[19:03] <steph_> all right
[19:03] <Who_> lapo, steph, kwwii: If we are doing theme-teams, something more structured than a wiki would rock
[19:03] <_MMA_> kwwii: Ill talk later about it.
[19:04] <Who_> kwwii: does it link in with Launchpad and ease packaging?
[19:04] <kwwii> _MMA_: ok, cool
[19:04] <steph_> Who_, +1, cause the Wiki is a little messy I think
[19:04] <lapo> Who_: tools are usefull, but people is more  important :-)
[19:04] <kwwii> Who_: yes, it is integrated with launchpad
[19:04] <kwwii> that is one of the sticking points, I think
[19:04] <Who_> kwwii: and the packaging? Can you create a 'theme' and it will spit out a package?
[19:04] <kwwii> I asked around the other day but have no response as yet
[19:05] <lapo> well packaging a theme should not be a big issue
[19:05] <Who_> lapo: Indeed. I can't help but feel that we're not failing on the people front though....
[19:05] <kwwii> Who_: nope, the automaticArtworkBuilder was the only way to come close to doing that
[19:05] <_MMA_> kwwii: We have been waiting on code approval for what 3 months now? And if you saw the last meeting Mark himself said Canonical has a backup for their sysadmin stuff alone. I think we just drop it for Hardy.
[19:05] <kwwii> Who_: and people found that to be too limiting and also too complicated .p
[19:05] <Who_> kwwii: I'm a bit guilty I know nothing of theme packaging. dholbach packaged Blubuntu
[19:05] <somerville32> I'm available to do any packaging required
[19:05] <somerville32> Please feel free to hit me up anytime :)
[19:06] <kwwii> _MMA_: we'll see what we can do and when we can do it...it might be getting too late though, you are right
[19:06] <kwwii> somerville32 is my new best friend ;-)
[19:06] <Who_> smoerville32: You know the art packaging dance?
[19:06] <Who_> somerville32: ^ (mistyped name)
[19:06]  * _MMA_ notes that ubuntustudio-look is in better shape than example-look atm if anyone needs some reference.
[19:07] <kwwii> the example look package needs a good doing through
[19:07] <kwwii> but there is only so much one can do at a time :p
[19:07] <somerville32> aye :)
[19:07] <somerville32> Where is the example package located at?
[19:07] <Who_> many hands make light work :P
[19:08] <steph_> I've got to go
[19:08] <steph_> cya all
[19:08] <jpatrick> kwwii: bug #163599 maybe?
[19:08] <kwwii> Who_: but almost all of that content has the logos and company stuff all over it
[19:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 163599 in example-content "[PATCH] Corrected kubuntu-leafet.png" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163599
[19:08] <_MMA_> somerville32: Talk with TheMuso to shape up example-look as he cleaned up ubuntustudio-look.
[19:08]  * somerville32 nods.
[19:08] <Who_> kwwii: which content?
[19:09] <somerville32> So, is everyone familiar with the changes to how we package artwork for Hardy?
[19:09] <_MMA_> https://launchpad.net/example-look
[19:09] <kwwii> erm, I meant the example-content package :p
[19:09] <kwwii> hehe, oops
[19:09] <Who_> somerville32: maybe a post to the list on that
[19:09] <kwwii> the example-look stuff was put together pretty quickly
[19:10] <kwwii> if anyone wants to have a wack at fixing that package up, feel totally free
[19:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: somerville32 will do that with TheMuso. ;)
[19:10] <kwwii> I'm tempted to add that as an action
[19:10] <somerville32> _MMA_, Maybe file a bug on launchpad and make sure I'm assigned or something?
[19:11] <_MMA_> Im sure you can handle that. ;)
[19:11] <kwwii> [ACTION] somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
[19:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
[19:11] <somerville32> _MMA_, Developers are lazy beasts. :P
[19:12] <kwwii> it looks like we made our way through most of the items, one way or another
[19:12] <kwwii> anyone have anything else to add?
[19:12] <kwwii> ahhh, right, let's talk about some of the mockups
[19:12] <somerville32> Yes
[19:12] <somerville32> Can we remove the topic lock in -artwork ?
[19:12] <somerville32> and set a sane topic too? :)
[19:13] <kwwii> somerville32: we can certainly change the topic but I think having it locked is not a bad idea
[19:13] <kwwii> there are a couple of people who can change it
[19:14] <somerville32> -devel isn't even topic locked
[19:14] <kwwii> hrm, I guess I can ask around and get advice and then figure out how to do it
[19:15] <_MMA_> If anyone wants to look at example-look now can use bzr to do it. bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/example-look/dev
[19:15] <kwwii> my /topic skills end at setting the topic :p
[19:15] <somerville32> kwwii, You might ask jdub to give you channel ownership
[19:15] <andreasn> :)
[19:15] <kwwii> :p
[19:15] <kwwii> since he is such a good friend
[19:15] <Who_> just occurred to me. Maybe at the start of the next meeting we can quickly equate our irc names to names on the list - it might help a bit :)
[19:15] <somerville32> kwwii, are you being sarcastic?
[19:15] <kwwii> Who_: yeah, i forgot to do that this time, sorry
[19:16]  * kwwii ? sarcastic? never
[19:16] <somerville32> lol
[19:16]  * somerville32 is so confused due to the lack of inherent bandwidth for sarcasm over a text medium
[19:16] <kwwii> [TOPIC] work in progress
[19:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  work in progress
[19:17] <kwwii> looking through the wiki these themes gave me a positive impression:
[19:18] <kwwii> BasicIdeals, Kerberos, SatinRibbon, SmoothMergedGradients, SzerencsefiaGTKIdea, Union, gelatin,
[19:18] <andreasn> gelatin is already implemented by some dude, and we should be able to package it without much difficulties
[19:19] <kwwii> and I kinda liked some of the line ideas in the Fela_Kuti wallpaper
[19:19] <kwwii> andreasn: killer, do you know who is working on that personally?
[19:19] <andreasn> well, vdepizzol did the mockup, can't remember the name of the dude who implemented it from the top of my head
[19:20] <andreasn> but I can look it up
[19:20] <thorwil> kwwii: i have all links open. shpuld i paste them?
[19:20] <Who_> Go for it....
[19:20] <kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I spent all the time cutting the names out of the links
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
[19:21] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
[19:21] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/gelatin
[19:21] <Kver> http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
[19:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
[19:22] <Who_> do we have Murrine i Ubuntu?
[19:22] <kwwii> ]http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
[19:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
[19:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
[19:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
[19:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
[19:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
[19:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
[19:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
[19:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
[19:22] <_MMA_> Who_: Yep.
[19:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
[19:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
[19:22] <kwwii> now they are properly in the bot thingy and minutes
[19:23] <thorwil> weird
[19:23] <Who_> _MMA_: How new? How up to date do the packages stay? (ie, how realistic is it to suggest argb for Hardy+1)
[19:23] <kwwii> the ideas that I really like are simplified window decoration (no line between windeco and menu) and simplified window buttons
[19:23] <_MMA_> Who_: Ubuntu Studio got it in for Feisty and have used it since.
[19:24] <kwwii> I dig the color brown and some of the transparency ideas as well
[19:24] <_MMA_> Cimi says a update should come from him soon but he was waiting on word from kwwii.
[19:24] <Kver> I think the smoothness of Szerencsefia is just plain beautiful, if we could implement it with offical colours and a clean GTK we culd have a winner
[19:24] <Who_> _MMA_: You maintain it?
[19:24] <kwwii> somehow I do get the feeling that a lot of them use too much saturation when making the window brown though
[19:24] <_MMA_> Who_: Someone on my team yes. Though others have touched it.
[19:25] <Who_> I find Szerencsefia too shinny for me
[19:25] <kwwii> Kver: yeah, that is a good idea to look in to
[19:25] <Who_> _MMA_: thanks. Not really sure why I asked P
[19:26] <Who_> hmmm. Union just hit me as 'the GTK Theme that likes fake tan' :P I really like it, but that thought made me chuckle. Perhaps it's a little bit too orange?
[19:26] <Kver> I'm a big fan of the "slab" window layout, where it looks like one big peice.
[19:27] <kwwii> Who_: after talking to macslow using alpha in the windows is not a big problem on the longer scale of things
[19:27] <kwwii> Kver: yeah, me too
[19:27] <Who_> kwwii: Awesome. If we can do it _tastefully_ then that seems good. On the whole though, I think that it might be something we have to wait for upstream apps to do to do tastefully....
[19:28] <kwwii> Who_: yeah, and keep the effect down to a minimum, I would guess
[19:28] <Who_> kver, kwwii: To slabs, me too.
[19:28] <_MMA_> kwwii: Something that kinda comes into play is the HP needed to do alphas and Compiz and whatever we come up with. Should that be kept in mind when creating?
[19:28] <Who_> kwwii: exactly - unless it is done on an App level it will be everywhere --> too much
[19:29] <kwwii> _MMA_: naturally we will still need a fallback for when it is not possible
[19:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: ie: pixmaps and svg icon themes can be slower but with newier machines this is less of a issue.
[19:29] <kwwii> another good reason to keep it as simple as possible
[19:30] <kwwii> crazy effects tend to just get in your way in the long run anyway
[19:30] <kwwii> you do not just want to look at the computer but also use it
[19:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, but how long do we cater to older machines? Kinda slows progress a bit.
[19:30] <kwwii> although I guess our goal is to get people to just stare at it :p
[19:30] <Kver> We should have 2 seperate versions of the themes almost, one designed specifically for low-end machenes, one for the bleeding edge almost...
[19:30] <kwwii> Kver: exactly
[19:30] <_MMA_> I dont agree.
[19:31] <Who_> I think a theme that did more if under a compoisited environment but looked very similar normally is ideal
[19:31] <kwwii> _MMA_: nothing we can do about that until we know that it is working pretty much everywhere
[19:31] <kwwii> Who_: I agree
[19:31] <Who_> I think also we _should_ be keeping simple - progress for progress sake is not progress
[19:31] <kwwii> 2 to 1, Cory loses :p
[19:32] <Kver> The only middle-gorund is one single GTK, one metacity and one emerald.
[19:32] <_MMA_> I dont agree with 2 themes I guess is more to the point. But how long do we do that really?
[19:32] <kwwii> _MMA_: only as long as we have to
[19:32] <Who_> but surely a theme engine that checked to see if it ran under a composited envirnment and did rounded corners if it was would be ideal?
[19:32] <Kver> Well, one theme could be either a atriped-down or a built-up version of the other.
[19:32] <kwwii> we would want to get away from that as soon as possible as it is much more work
[19:33] <Who_> (obviously, rounded corners is an example :P)
[19:33] <kwwii> I am guessing it would be a matter of phasing it out
[19:33] <kwwii> or limiting the updates more and more over time
[19:33] <Kver> I think square-corners in the GTK would be good. Rounded corners are great and all, but it's one of those "we know we can do it, now let's move on"
[19:33] <Who_> or just making one theme depend on Compiz or something - then if you don't install compiz you get the old theme, if you do you get the new one?
[19:33] <kwwii> Who_: yeah, something like that
[19:34] <Kver> I beleive Cimi said ppa themes would work normally under a non-composited enviornment.
[19:34] <Who_> Kver: I remember reading that too.
[19:34] <kwwii> if so, good :-)
[19:34] <Who_> kwwii: what kind of structure were you thinking of for the development of the Hardy +1 theme?
[19:34] <Kver> But for the sake of keeping things safe and bug-free, I'm temtped to say go with 2 GTK themes...
[19:35] <_MMA_> Who_: Compiz is installed and on by default now. I dont think your idea would work.
[19:35] <Who_> _MMA_: I think you might be right. Perhaps the application to enable compiz could write hit the theme gconf key?
[19:35]  * _MMA_ just hopes someone tests all this new hotness we're talking about. :P
[19:36] <damianvila> kwwii: can you arrange a concept from what you like in those mockups and put it in the wiki as a reference? how feasible are those elements you like to be included in Ubuntu Hardy+1?
[19:36] <kwwii> Who_: I think that once the art direction is clear we start communicating with the theme teams about who to move forward and see what comes of that
[19:36] <kwwii> eventually we will have a couple of people working on parts of the default theme with direction
[19:36] <Kver> What about the effects window in all this? It has 4 options for the level of effects, would this be something to consider in the theme design?
[19:37] <Who_> kwwii: damianvila has a great point: can you make some kind of announcement of what is 'popular' with you and the Canonical guys?
[19:37] <Kver> Have 4 configurations of the theme based on level of effects?
[19:37] <_MMA_> kwwii: 1) When will it be clear? :) 2) Why would yo uneed to communicate with the theme teams? I thought the point was to work on themes independent of Ubuntu?
[19:37] <kwwii> damianvila: yes, I should go through the mockups and highlight parts and ideas
[19:37] <Who_> Kver: sounds kind of nice :) but a lot of work, potentially - as themes aren't as easily 'deblingable' as compiz is...
[19:38] <kwwii> I'll have a set of possiblities together any day now (based on one idea that I have been working on), I'll try to explain the desired tidbits there as well
[19:38] <Kver> Who_: It would mostly be a script that chooses from a small selection of pre-made peices.
[19:39] <Kver> Like "Light" effects might use a non-ppa GTK but the Emerald frame.
[19:39] <Who_> Kver: like sucking out bits of gtkrc to make a theme? Or swapping between some complete gtkrcs?
[19:39] <kwwii> the stuff that I am currently working on is a single window style using varying background colors and elements to show the possibilities of using color
[19:40] <Who_> kwwii: would you say it is fair to say that ultimately the default theme for Hardy will be designed by you based on submissions?
[19:40] <Kver> Who_: Just swapping between existing themes, not generating themes on the spot.
[19:40] <damianvila> kwwii: the palette is the one you sent to the list? (palette.pdf?)
[19:40] <Who_> Kver: yup. sounds doable. Would probably break when not using Ubuntu's theme?
[19:40] <kwwii> Who_: not necessarily just by myself but I will have to play a part in order to communicate ideas
[19:40] <kwwii> damianvila: yes
[19:40] <damianvila> kwwii: ok
[19:41] <kwwii> sooooo...if everyone thinks we have covered everything we can call and end to the meeting
[19:41] <Who_> kwwii: Cool, do you  think perhaps it would be good to make that more clear on the list? It seems to meever other day someone thinks their theme might be the default....
[19:41] <andreasn> sure, thanks for now
[19:42] <andreasn> next meeting in a month?
[19:42] <Who_>  yea, seems done for now
[19:42] <Kver> Who_: It could either warn the user, or just detect wether the user is using a custom theme.
[19:42] <kwwii> Who_: I send emails about that again and again (and it is in the wiki, etc) but yes, I could send it again
[19:42] <Who_> kwwii:  :)
[19:42] <kwwii> we should point everyone to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/FAQ when possible and get that complete
[19:43] <Kver> Well, depending on who I run into before I go, I just want to say good luck to everyone I don't see again. :D
[19:43] <Kver> well, for the next few months, at least.
[19:43] <kwwii> Kver: dude, thanks so much for the awesome work
[19:43] <Kver> :P
[19:43] <kwwii> you are welcome back even if your have no hair ;-)
[19:43]  * _MMA_ salutes.
[19:43] <kwwii> Kver: if there is anything else you need or any way I can help, just drop me a note
[19:43] <Kver> Heh, thanks all!
[19:44] <Kver> Million dollars in unmarked bills, dropped off at...
[19:44] <Who_> Kver: nice work, thanks!
[19:44] <kwwii> nahhh, the government would wonder where you got it all at, it would be more trouble than good
[19:45] <Who_> kwwii: Make it 1/2 a million then. That seems well withtin government's tolerable corruption levels
[19:45] <Kver> Mwaha, time for a trip to Mexico!
[19:45] <kwwii> thanks everyone for taking part in the meeting, they keep getting better and better every time
[19:45] <kwwii> #endmeeting
[19:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:45.
[19:46] <kwwii> boah, 1 3/4 hours
[19:46] <Kver> Goodbye, MootBot!
[19:46] <kwwii> I am soo good at talking
[19:46] <_MMA_> pfftt..
[19:46] <thorwil> lol
[19:46] <_MMA_> You just like the sound. :P
[19:46] <kwwii> I actually talk to my chat client while typing
[19:46] <_MMA_> haha
[19:47] <Who_> kwwii: really!?
[19:47] <zniavre> :o)
[19:47] <_MMA_> Yeah. Saying how everyone is full of it. :D
[19:47] <thorwil> kwwii: does he respond?
[19:47] <kwwii> thorwil: my wife says she can't hear it but I can :p
[19:47] <Who_> okie. Bye all!
[19:47] <kwwii> night all, have a nice evening
[19:47] <kwwii> or day or whatever
[19:47] <thorwil> bye!
[19:48] <damianvila> Bye
[19:49] <Who_> kwwii: let me guess: you're too afraid to tell it to love? (http://xkcd.com/144/)
[19:51] <kwwii> Who_: exactly