[00:00] (I could even imagine ticking off the installation/removal stages in such a list, but that is possibly a little wild and possibly a little too useless.) [00:01] Especially considering how are the actions ordered (usually ~3 passes through the entire list). === uga is now known as uga|away [00:05] * ryanakca gapes in awe at how much faster Konqueror 4 is compared to Firefox... [00:05] 15 seconds to load http://irssi.org/themes compared to 200+ in firefox [00:21] gn8 [00:25] * ryanakca is quite impressed with KDE4 :) [00:27] * mhb is quite impressed with oroborus ... but most of this channel hates me enough for today. [00:28] Riddell: die! [00:28] hmm, this is better than a stressball [00:29] Riddell: hehe want me to make her go away? [00:29] Riddell: wanker! [00:29] Nightrose: oh I think it's more fun if I do [00:29] *g* ok [00:29] !language [00:29] Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly. [00:30] holy kde4 updates! [00:30] :) [00:33] mhb: oroborus ? [00:35] ryanakca: it's a window manager. Feature-wise it's very similar to openbox, but it's even more lightweight. It's actually so lightweight it follows the UNIX philosophy - it does one thing and it does it well. [00:36] ryanakca: but it still is configurable and themable, and it's not one of those "keyboard-only" WMs. [00:46] ryanakca: something very different from KDE4 :o) [01:07] mhb: i dont hate you! [01:07] * seele hugs mhb [01:08] seele: ah, thank you! [01:08] I don't hate you, too :o) [01:08] haha [01:08] * Jucato smiles :) [01:09] * Jucato waves too [01:09] hallo [01:09] hi Jucato, I don't hate you either, but I'm not so sure that it's symmetric [01:09] seele: all this time I thought you were partially responsible (a.k.a. to blame? :P) for kickoff's "usability studiess"... until I came across one of their docs which has an image of your proposal.. and it looked very different [01:10] mhb: if I hated you, I wouldn't be talking to you at all :) [01:10] (or I wouldn't be here) [01:10] Jucato: omg i hate you [01:10] Jucato: (jk) [01:10] :D [01:10] sigh, what to do about kickoff [01:10] it really makes my head hurt [01:11] mhb: just because we don't agree on some things isn't enough reason to hate each other right? :D [01:11] heheh :) [01:11] seele: I personally would have wanted something like a cross between kbfx and tasty menu.... sort of :) [01:12] Jucato: yeah, kbfx had a good idea about things [01:13] kickoff breaks some really basic interaction design rules, that's why it hurts my head [01:13] fortunately or unfortunately, they seemed to have dropped those in favor of doing something probably completely different with raptor... [01:14] seele: can you elaborate a little on that? [01:14] kickoff that is [01:14] Nightrose: poor positional feedback when you are in a section [01:14] ah right [01:14] Nightrose: mouse over activation of sections in a sensitive spot [01:15] some of the menus don't have headers, so you cant tell where you are easily [01:15] the icons in the leave menu don't match the logout menu [01:15] program descriptions are hidden until mouseover [01:15] mouseover effect of selecting a menu item mess with scrolling [01:16] seele: some of the mouseovers have been addressed, haven't they? [01:16] seele: hmm ok thx - makes sense [01:16] mhb: maybe? i'm running whatever is in the kubuntu release [01:16] at least the mouseover over the tabs at the bottom can be turned on/off [01:16] * mhb checks [01:16] Nightrose: et cetera.. i'm trying to write them all down so i can give people a list when they ask me to elaborate when i complain [01:17] Jucato: the problem is it is on by default [01:17] seele: hehe so I am not the first to ask... [01:17] Jucato: think of all the users who don't know how to change defaults [01:17] seele: an very annoying :) [01:17] and* [01:17] I just happen to like right-click on almost anything that's why I ran into it [01:17] mhb: oooh, cool :) [01:17] * Jucato right-clicks on mhb and seele [01:18] * Jucato sees a "blue hair" context menu on seele [01:18] mhb: i know long ago (around kde4core) they were talking about a mouse path algorithm to cut off corners so you dont accidentally select a menu when moving the mouse away [01:18] * ryanakca considers switching to KDE4 for writing his essay... [01:18] mhb: but it either wasnt implemented or isnt effective enough [01:18] but doesn't want it to eat his non existent children... or his essay [01:21] seele: I'm looking at the image of you app browser mockup from coolo's talk at the akademy. it kinda looks like tasty menu from a distance. though I can't say much since I can't find a larger version :) [01:21] seele: hmm, most of the mouseoves has not been addressed [01:22] seele: but apachelogger's screenshot (of kickoff with some suse patches) has the context info by default (not on mouseover), so it may have been an upstream KDE decision. [01:26] mhb: it looks like it was reversed. the selected item doesn't have the description [01:50] evneing [01:50] hi jjesse! [01:53] hello Jucato [02:00] slow night tonight? [02:00] or morning. but yes :) [02:17] amd64 packages for kde4 are still silly [02:18] upgrade wants to remove stuff (extragear-plasma and such) [02:27] Jucato: where is the video of coolo's talk you were talking about? [02:28] not a video. slides [02:28] heh, I am glad there is at least a plasmoid for the old KMenu, which is what I use :) I removed that kickoff crap [02:28] link me homeskillet [02:29] http://conference2006.kde.org/conference/talks/33.php [02:30] ahh, that's why I couldn't find it. I was looking at 2007 [02:30] :D [02:34] interesting...I like how their usability scores in the slides show kickoff scoring higher than KMenu and Vista [02:35] Vista imho, is better and easier to manipulate than kickoff [02:35] plus, after seeing the picture of coolo taking the usability test, the results now seem to be biased if you are allowing developers to test out [02:36] at Allen Bradley, when we created anything GUI/HMI, the customer took the usability tests, and we would work from there [02:37] hmm.. the suse version has a background color tie-in for the selected tab. i wonder why the kde4 version doesn't have that [02:38] seele: maybe robert wasn't able to port that yet... suse isn't the one that made the kde4 version... [02:38] (I seem to recall a heated debate on whether to use bold faced text instead...) [02:39] yeah i know [02:39] bold faced text? [02:39] to indicate the active tab [02:39] seele: it seems your idea from around 2 years ago was kind of to take on that SLED menu that SuSE has [02:39] s/SLED/Slab/ [02:39] ya slab [02:39] derr :p [02:39] [07:00] and people didnt want to implement my suggestion because gnome came up with something similar soon after i published my ideas === claydoh_ is now known as claydoh [02:40] I read through some usability reports on the vista start menu and it seemed the only things is really fixed was "it doesn't take up the whole screen when I have a lot of apps" [02:41] Task 13: Shut down the system [02:41] I need to reread seele's report on the start menu usability :) [02:41] Jucato: all he has to do is change the active color from light gray to white [02:41] are you telling me it took someone, or an average of someones, about 100 seconds to shutdown vista? [02:41] that right there tells me that you should not smoke a pound of weed prior to taking the tests [02:42] seele: yeah.. I don't know how it came up though... but iirc it caused quite an argument between robert and aaron :) [02:42] ha! [02:42] Jucato: aaron seigo? [02:42] seele: yep... [02:42] can't recall the details now [02:42] head -> desk [02:43] nixternal: it didn't take me that long, but it did take me a bit to figure out which button at the bottom did which :) [02:43] but then again, I was only using it for a few minutes :) [02:43] ya, the first time I tried Vista I had to take a second to see which one of the 2 power down looking buttons did what [02:44] it only takes me 1 second to shutdown vista..I can do it with my eyes closed [02:44] Vista locks up -> POWER BUTTON! [02:44] lol [02:45] 30 people took the tests...ie. 30 developers [02:45] seele: how much do we need Shuttleworth to give ya to start up your own usability testing center? :) [02:46] uhm.. well i am always available as a consultant :) [02:47] nixternal: um.. dreaming? :) [02:48] that is the first time I have seen the kbfx menu..it don't look half bad [02:49] it's not... I think vista copied it :P [02:49] yeah.. it's based on some of the same concepts i was playing with for a shortcut menu [02:49] lol [02:49] microsoft has a huge research department, but how much of it is original? [02:51] I got stuck doing a Microsoft usability test at the mall a few years back [02:51] they gave me a free starbucks, so I obliged [02:52] what did you test? [02:53] Internet Explorer 7 [02:53] or what was to become IE7 [02:54] and the other one was the Media Center controls, which absolutely confused the hell out of me :) [02:56] hehe [02:57] ya, I am sure after I took the test they rewrote it with a playschool theme [03:20] grr.. just broke konq [03:22] bummer [03:27] more than it already is (broken)? [03:28] Jucato: ouch! hehe [03:29] * Jucato is quite disappointed in konqueror4 as a file manager/wrapper... [03:30] Jucato: not a fan of Dolphin? [03:30] Konqueror <3 [03:30] it has it's strengths. I don't hate it. but I would have probably preferred to use Konqueror... except that in KDE 4.0... that's not really an option... [03:31] It's not? [03:31] Why? [03:31] That doesn't sound too good to me. [03:31] put it this way... you'll have to open Dolphin to make File Management configuration changes, even if you're using Konqueror [03:32] although I might be missing some hidden menu or something [03:32] Bah. Why on earth aren't those in systemsettings / kcontrol. [03:32] because they are only specific to the dolphin part [03:33] I'm mostly referring to the view settings [03:33] No they are not, if they affect Konqueror as well. [03:33] Hirvinen_: they affect konqueror only because konqueror uses the dolphin kpart. [03:34] oh there's another thing... no more tooltips in Konqueror... because the dolphin part doesn't have any (it uses the information panel) [03:35] no status bar info either... [03:35] =( [03:36] now my favorite part of the day... [03:36] lunch!!! [03:36] Hm. 0536 here. No lunch for some time. [03:37] Are the file association settings then only under Dolphin? === _czessi is now known as Czessi [03:57] any plans on building the kde4 api docs? [04:27] * nixternal sits back and builds apidox (all night long) [04:28] * nixternal forget he deleted the last build of api docs when removing kde-devel user === aRyn_ is now known as aRyn === aRyn is now known as aRyn1 === aRyn1 is now known as aRyn [04:59] Howdy folks [05:07] Anybody home? [05:09] howdy manchicken [05:09] jeesh, api docs still building [05:26] anyone else having update issues with amd64 and kde4 on hardy? [05:26] I still can't update [05:27] i think somebody else mentioned it earlier [05:27] ya, probably me [05:27] oh yeah, it's you [05:27] hahaha [05:27] * nixternal throws a broken kde 4 deb at apachelogger_ [05:27] :) [05:28] i wish valgrind and callgrind didn't slow the program down so much [05:28] I can live with the slowness..I just love all of the information it gives me...makes fixing your apps so much easier [05:29] yeah, but i've heard similar tools (from MS?) on windows aren't as bad performance-wise [05:37] ooh konq sidebar is working now [05:56] * apachelogger_ throws his stress ball at nixternal [05:56] mail me proper information :P [05:56] * apachelogger_ cuttles off to school === uga|away is now known as uga [06:41] nixternal: pling [06:41] stdin: pling [06:41] Nightrose: pling [06:52] no one likes me :( [06:52] apparently not [06:54] * apache|mobile notes that the wrapper scripts are giving him an headache [08:28] good morning folks === \sh_away is now known as \sh [08:38] lahoy sebastian^ [08:48] morning folks :) [08:48] apache|mobile: plong *g* [08:48] * apache|mobile starts singing [08:48] apache|mobile: whohooooooo @ nice icons - sweetness [08:48] Nightrose: you are so beautiful to meeeeee [08:48] hrrhrr, icons [08:48] * apache|mobile needs sleep [08:48] and I have to learn this afternoon [08:48] ;-) [08:48] tomorrow is our last maths test -.- [08:48] :/ [08:48] prepared? [08:49] not at all [08:50] was patching kde4 since friday :S [08:50] good luck then :) [08:57] I has the most beautiful workspace revision eva! [09:06] i lost 3 menu-entries through the logo/user/machine line [09:07] from 12 -> 9. now kickoff is not usuable [09:08] aantipop: you know you can get more "lines" in kickoff? [09:08] will try [09:09] not yet, will try again after logout [09:11] no success, menu shows 8 1/2 applications, cant get it bigger [09:12] i was kinda getting used to kickoff, but at the moment i have to scroll too often [09:17] hm [09:17] aantipop: please report a bug [09:18] will do [09:18] it appears one patch br0ke the visible entry setting [09:19] i was able set it to very high numbers before (even if it didnt get bigger than 12), now it stops at 34 [09:20] is kickoff or "new k-menu" the official name and whats the package ? [09:21] oh it doesnt stop at 34, BS [09:28] apache|mobile: is this a plasma-bug, or what package should i file it agains ? [09:28] aantipop: kdebase-workspace [09:29] apachelogger_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/183127 [09:29] Launchpad bug 183127 in kdebase-workspace "new k-menu is not able to display more than 9 entries" [Undecided,New] === smarter_ is now known as smarter [09:51] Will yakuake/kde4 be packaged? [09:52] hopefully [09:53] * emonkey can't live without ;) [09:53] Is someone working on it or can I try to package it? [09:53] * smarter loves yakuake too ;) [09:54] smarter: is there a release yet? [09:54] only in SVN [09:54] in extragear/utils/yakuake [09:54] works pretty well [09:56] I'm not sure Sho_ intends to make a release of the kde 4 version immediately though... I haven't asked him about it yet [09:56] * apache|mobile votes against svn snapshots [09:56] ...there is a reason for not doing a release [09:57] and even if he were to release what's currently in svn, according to him, it would be a 2.9 beta1... so it would be a beta release [09:58] well, that's better than nothing ;) [09:59] is there any plan to provide kde trunk snapshots or kde 4.0.x snapshots packages? [10:02] no [10:02] smarter: I backport important bugfixes to .0 [10:02] until .1 is out [10:04] apache|mobile: okay, thanks [10:05] apache|mobile: is kopete-kde4 already patched ? [10:05] no [10:05] aantipop: I would be more than happy if you would create the patch for me ;-) [10:06] apache|mobile: thats far beyond my knowledge [10:06] apache|mobile: i was able to do it on my machine, thats all [10:09] what's the problem with kopete? [10:10] smarter: when using another language, you loose the ability to add networks like ice, aim, everything [10:10] *icq [10:11] smarter: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155256 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155256 [10:11] KDE bug 155256 in general "kopete doesn't let add any IM service" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] [10:11] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdenetwork-kde4/+bug/182816 [10:11] Launchpad bug 182816 in kdenetwork-kde4 "No connections to choose from in KDE4-Kopete" [Medium,Confirmed] [10:13] so we only need to backport the fix? [10:13] yes [10:21] smarter: want to create the patch? [10:21] apache|mobile_: I'm doing it right now ;) [10:22] hooray [10:24] apache|mobile_: http://smarter.free.fr/pkg/remove_translated_category_fields.diff [10:34] the solution is to delete just all the localization lines? [10:34] aren't they used? [10:34] emonkey: no, they're not used and "Protocols" is already translated in Kopete [10:35] okey, I was just wondering [10:39] smarter: thanks, testbuilding right now [10:42] apache|mobile_: I tried "sudo cp kopete/protocols/**/kopete_*.desktop /usr/lib/kde4/share/kde4/services" and it worked, so there should'nt be any problem [10:43] smarter: well, I also did a change to the build process ;-) [10:43] * ryanakca reminds everybody of the Kubuntu Website Mockup Contest :) [10:44] ryanakca: btw, I'm nothing like a good artist ;-) [10:44] apache|mobile_: lol :) [10:44] nor am I... which is why we're all polling the planet. [10:44] And I haven't received one single submission yet... which is starting to get discouraging, four days into the contest [10:45] a good mockup takes time :P [10:45] :P [10:45] ryanakca: tell me in 48 hours again, I'll do some promo flood then [10:46] thanks :) [10:46] Hum... I can't add any accounts in kopete [10:46] the "Finish" button is always inactive [10:46] cool [10:46] did work yesterday for me [10:46] it worked some time ago when I compiled from svn [10:46] * ryanakca fired up Kopete-kde4... it failed me abismaly :) [10:47] The config panel isn't complete... so I can't add any accounts :S [10:47] kopete isn't in all that good shape [10:47] ... the config panel isn't even started from what I could see :) [10:47] Oo [10:47] that is strange [10:47] the "windows live messenger" protocol can't be configured at all [10:48] "Cannot load the Windows Live (MSN) Messenger protocol plugin." [10:48] hmm works for me, i patched it manually [10:49] * ryanakca has used the same config for ages... so I guess I'm safe :) [10:50] ryanakca: only kopete-kde4 is problematic when you use a different language for kde [10:50] aantipop: you patched msn? [10:50] yup [10:51] aantipop: how? [10:51] aantipop: hmmm... other than en-us? [10:51] wait ill paste it [10:51] * ryanakca checks to make sure he isn't using en_gb [10:53] aantipop: any way to import Kopete3 / whatever the current gutsy one is accounts into kopete-kde4? [10:54] ryanakca: dont think so [10:54] ryanakca: worked for me [10:55] just copied it over tp .kde4 [10:55] *to [10:55] Nightrose: okies :) [10:55] well google talk does not work but that is due to an outdated library [10:55] apache|mobile_: http://rafb.net/p/iIkJW589.html kopete_msn.desktop [10:56] aantipop: what did you exactly do? [10:56] remove the translated plugin entries? [10:56] I copied ~/.kde/share/apps/kopete and ~/.kde/share/config/kopeterc in my ~/.kde4 and it works [10:56] ryanakca, where have you published the mockup contest? [10:57] emonkey: yep, I'll get you a link, it was on planet a few days ago [10:57] apache|mobile: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdenetwork/kopete/protocols/msn/kopete_msn.desktop?r1=761365&r2=761364&pathrev=761365&diff_format=l [10:57] i think exactly this :) [10:57] http://blog.ryanak.ca/archives/44 [10:58] ryanakca, I can ask our news team about write something about on kubuntu-de.org [10:58] aantipop: ok, that is what I'm building right now :P [10:58] emonkey: that would be wonderful :) [10:58] ryanakca: the time frame is too short [10:58] two weeks from the set date? [10:58] apache|mobile_: im just wondering why smarter cant use msn now [10:59] ryanakca: make it one month [10:59] at least [10:59] mhb: ^^ [10:59] * ryanakca bumps it up to a month then [10:59] aantipop: after copy&pasting my ~/.kde msn works using the "msn" protocol [10:59] but the "windows live messenger"(=libpapillon I think) doesn't work [11:01] emonkey: refresh please :) [11:01] apache|mobile_: fixed [11:01] it corresponds to kopete/protocols/msn(old, works) and kopete/protocols/messenger(new, doesn't work) [11:01] ryanakca: awesome [11:01] * Hobbsee finds there's no ETA on the seeds restructuring [11:01] ryanakca, :) I wrote an email to our teamlist, I'm sure they'll make a news in the next 24h [11:01] * ryanakca tries to get it in UWN too [11:01] emonkey: thanks :D [11:02] i think translated categories should removed too, dont know if everywhere [11:17] hi [11:17] how to behave with pakaging bug reports on kde4 ppa packages? file them simply to launchpad is enough? [11:18] Hobbsee: that doesn't surprise me. [11:19] mhb: your cynisism is very helpful. colin says he'll try to look at it this week [11:21] Hobbsee: it's not a cynic as it sounds ... just a statement. I still hope that in the end, a KDE4 CD will be there. [11:21] mhb: keep in mind that it also affects all of the cd builds for everything ubuntu hardy, and will be done before feature freeze [11:22] it doesn't affect The Ubuntu Hardy CDs, does it? [11:23] yes [11:23] same as our KDE3 CDs, they all get built [11:23] if the seeds infrastructure changes, and they get done in a different way, it changes all the cds. [11:23] didn't you read ubuntu-devel? [11:23] no [11:24] well, I'll keep my fingers crossed. [11:26] apache|mobile_: I still have a few missing app icons - want me to make a list? [11:27] no [11:29] Iim wondering why kompare kde3 has a nice icon in katapult and kompare-kde4 a too little one which of course is more a chaotic area of psychodelic colours than an icon ... ;) [11:31] "konqueror" should launch konqueror of kde3, right ? somehow it launches konqueror-kde4 now :/ [11:33] does kfind-kde4 use strigi? [11:33] smarter: no [11:43] smarter: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdenetwork-kde4 [11:45] apache|mobile_: great! what is kde4-wrapper-creation? [11:45] a script to create the /usr/bin/*-kde4 files? [11:46] apache|mobile_: table-tennis [11:46] smarter: the build fix I was talking about [11:46] we had quite some problems creating the wrapper structure properly, so I had to create it's own cmd in debian/rules [11:46] stdin: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdenetwork-kde4 checkout the new debian/rules [11:47] we now have kde4-wrapper-cration which gets called by common-install-indep AND common-install-arch [11:47] hence we can remove the duplicated creation [11:47] and this solution works every where [11:47] every time [11:47] every build [11:47] every Nightrose [11:47] oohhh [11:47] Nightrose: [11:47] hrrrhrrr :D [11:47] heh [11:47] ? [11:48] :P [11:48] Nightrose: any issues for me? [11:48] hmm besides the few missing icons and the kopete library thingy [11:48] no [11:48] have you seen https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-kde4/+bug/183038 [11:48] Launchpad bug 183038 in kdebase-kde4 "cannot create files or folders in dolphin-kde4 or konqueror-kde4" [Undecided,Fix released] [11:48] ? [11:49] apache|mobile_: so the dupicated entries will go away? wohooo [11:49] :P [11:49] Nightrose: in kickoff? [11:49] jep [11:49] no [11:49] well [11:49] maybe [11:49] lol [11:49] anyway [11:49] hehe i see [11:49] have to go home [11:49] and learn [11:49] learn like I never learned before [11:50] maths-- [11:50] later [11:50] have fun [11:50] laters [11:50] stdin: can confirm [11:51] stdin: as it is solved - is the fix packported yet? [11:51] *back [11:51] Nightrose: ah I didn't hit refresh yet :) I'll backport it today [11:51] cool [11:51] thx [11:53] ah wait, I already have backported it :p [11:53] I need to make a list or something... [11:53] stdin: use basket ;) [11:54] but, that would require setting basket up [11:54] Riddell: just saw kmplayer has been ported to kde4 [11:54] Riddell: what's the plan atm for kde3 apps ported to kde4 ? do we want both in the repos ? [11:54] stdin: wohoo true - works now [11:54] perfect [11:54] Riddell: or wait for the transition with hardy +1 [11:55] IMHO we should have both [11:56] kde{libs,base,edu,games,...} lacks lots of important apps [11:57] * ryanakca seconds smarter [11:58] Sure, it'll probably be a pita having to make sure everything gets build as /usr/bin/foobar-kde4 (I've never done it, I wouldn't know), but if people want to get the "KDE4.0 experience", they'll probably want the whole experience instead of a mix of the old and new [11:59] Tonio_: yes, we want them both [11:59] call it kmplayer-kde4 [11:59] is it just me, or is it _not_ possible to launch konqueror (kde3) from a kde4 session at the moment ? [12:03] Riddell: oki there are a couple of packages to do [12:03] Riddell: I'll spend my friday at packaging apps that are ported to kde4 [12:03] Riddell: since I never packaged kde4 apps yet, are there specific patches I have to know ? [12:04] Riddell: aka changing path etc.... [12:04] aantipop: running "konqueror" from kde4 finds the kde4 version first, if you really want the kde3 version run "/usr/bin/konqueror" [12:04]