=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: IRC Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting [00:51] @now [00:51] Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 00:51:29 - Current meeting: IRC Council [01:00] Its that time again! [01:01] Howdy Doody time? [01:02] Hello! [01:02] Why hello thar. [01:04] * nalioth drops a pin [01:04] bong [01:05] Hm, not much on the agenda. [01:06] "yet" [01:06] Oh boy. [01:06] * Pici waits for nalioth to get his fingers on it. [01:07] are we all here? [01:07] Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda === mc44_ is now known as mc44 [01:07] did we want to discuss the #kubuntu-kde4 thing? [01:07] I think we wanted to discuss how to prevent it in the future. [01:08] i'd just like to venture my opinion on #kubuntu-kde4. [01:08] Kind of, I guess. The item I put in the agenda is about a documents for operators that should help when creating new channels. Nothing exceptional, just a checklist of things we generally do in such cases. [01:08] Perhaps we want to wait for elkbuntu, though? [01:09] Did she say she was able to make it? [01:10] gah, I had wanted to attend, but I'm being called off. Take care, all. [01:10] Pici: she said so [01:13] Well, anyway, the document I prepared is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels - if you want to start having a look. I think more than "approving" it, it's a matter of technically proofreading it... [01:14] Is the seeking the approval bit necessary? [01:15] We should at least be notified. [01:15] PriceChild, we may debate that. Do we want it to simply be a "help" document, or should it actually be something that people are *required* to follow when creating a channel? [01:15] It can be used both ways, I guess. [01:15] The informing people bit near the end.... yeah ok. But .................. "help" imo [01:16] We've talked about this before and been pretty much of the opinion "damned if we do, damned if we don't" so I don't think it right to be requiring it from people. [01:18] I don't think its too much to ask for a notification that a new channel in the #ubuntu namespace is being activated. [01:18] No I'm happy with suggesting that, [01:21] To connect to the #kubuntu-kde4 issue, however, I think it *is* reasonable of us, when a channel doesn't seem to be approved by the team holding the namespace, and/or it's not set up (i.e. basically nothing in that checklist has been followed, it's an empty channel with no operators, no real way to enforce respecting the CoC, etc), to temporarily close it until it is set up for the "public". [01:22] my issue is not about that. [01:26] my issue is that i think we're gonna be creating "second class citizens" [01:26] nalioth: what do you mean with that? [01:26] Hardy is gonna officially ship with kde3 and kde4. [01:27] depending on what the user chooses, he's not gonna be welcomed in #kubuntu [01:27] Ah, so the creation of a sub-channel is what irks you. [01:27] Pici: i believe it will 'irk' a lot of folks (we serve the world, you know) [01:27] nalioth: My understanding is that, once Hardy is released, it would be supported in #kubuntu and #kubuntu-kde4 would be closed... [01:27] I could be wrong about that, however. [01:28] That's the impression I got also. [01:28] LjL: i've heard other info since [01:28] which is why i'm offering my opinion [01:28] I got the impression that -kde4 would be open indefinitely [01:29] Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision... [01:29] LjL: which is why i keep using the word 'opinion" [01:29] Pici: That is almost certainly not the case. [01:30] nalioth: Sure. Perhaps we should invite the people in #kubuntu-devel (or whatever the most appropriate channel is) to this meeting to discuss the issue? [01:30] where's hobbsee? :) [01:31] LjL: in a discussion with hobbsee in -irc we agreed to keep it open post-release and re-asses when KDE4 has a larger user-base [01:31] erm, in -ops, not -irc [01:32] stdin, with hardy shipping with kde4 aren't you expecting it to become the norm? [01:32] we reasoned that many people would try kde4, but then go back to a more stable kde3 [01:33] well, stdin, as long as Kubuntu "3" and Kubuntu "4" are two separate release, Kubuntu "3" being prominently promoted as the "stable" release, and Kubuntu "4" as a bleeding-edge, potentially unstable one, that would seem reasonable. [01:33] That's not exactly going to be easy though? swapping the installed packages? [01:33] PriceChild: some will switch, others won't [01:33] Otherwise, my own opinion is that it is not. [01:33] I had enough of a time swapping between gnome and kde4. [01:33] afaik, on the downloads section there will indeed be 2 images [01:33] LjL: but both are gonna "officially" ship with Hardy [01:33] but kde4 will be on shipit only, and kde4 will be promoted most? [01:33] LjL: no "this is stable" and "this is nose-bleed" [01:34] gah this isn't really relevant [01:34] right. i gave my opinion. [01:34] nalioth: Well, although not really a very comparable example, Compiz/Beryl "shipped" (in Universe, though) with various versions of Ubuntu. Yet we had a channel set up specifically for Compiz/Beryl issues (#ubuntu-effects, now closed), and didn't deal with them in #ubuntu. [01:34] yes we will promote KDE4, we know it's "not ready for the average user", but the more users we get the more bugs we find an fix, and so make the next release better [01:35] right, LjL, that's not comparable at all [01:35] However, I recognize that the desktop environment of a distribution is something a little more "core". [01:35] The big thing that confuses me.... is why #kubuntu can't handle both. [01:36] i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4 [01:36] PriceChild: well, that also confuses me, but the kubuntu ops say that it can't. [01:36] PriceChild: because the 2 environments are different enough to cause a lot of confusion when trying to ask/answer questions [01:36] stdin, if I were to decide, I'd say that you can't have it both ways... either you go with the risk of shipping something "bleeding-edge", cross your fingers, and support it in #kubuntu... or you shouldn't say "Yes, we promote this very loudly, but... we don't support it in our official channel...! Because it's bleeding-edge and it would stop those poor KDE 3 users, who use a real system and not an unstable one, from getting support". [01:37] stdin, people aren't going to join #kubuntu-kde4 before #kubuntu [01:37] stdin, they will join #kubuntu, then get annoyed when they're told to go to #kubuntu-kde4 [01:37] stdin, they might even join #ubuntu, be told to go to #kubuntu, then again moved to #kubuntu-kde4 [01:38] * PriceChild uses #ubuntuforums, #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-effects as examples of the above. [01:38] Also, while (as I said) I believe that deciding whether a channel such as #kubuntu-kde4 should be created or not doesn't compete to us, I think it would be important for us to be part of the process that leads to creating it. [01:38] I say this because such an important channel has implications over channels we manage directly, as well: currently, for instance, I am instructing people who ask about KDE 4.0 in #ubuntu (not just #kubuntu) to join #kubuntu-kde4 instead. [01:38] Nobody has really decided this, though, I am doing it myself because I think it's reasonable: it would be, I think, pretty paradoxical if #kubuntu didn't accept questions about KDE 4.0, but #ubuntu did. [01:40] I personally wan't involved in creating the channel, I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do at the start [01:40] so I think that a more open process to doing such (and announcements) would be good [01:41] however, it does exist now. be it only with 27 users. we expect that number to increase [01:41] I don't think anything was ever formally decided, things just happened and people got angry. [01:41] we've decided to keep -kde4 for a while to "see how it goes", and we'll re-assess it soon after hardy and a few times after [01:42] ok [01:43] we basically just want to see what the response to and take-up of kde4 is going to be like before we include it into the main channel [01:43] ok, im here [01:44] elkbuntu, hi, we're discussing #kubuntu-kde4 as you can see, and I showed a document I've written about creating new channels ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels ), although the consensus to me seems to be that it should only be a "help" document for operators, and not a policy. [01:45] LjL, i would agree with that [01:47] stdin: I've been suggested something, by the way. As far as I know, the default Kubuntu IRC client(s) join #kubuntu by default... Couldn't the KDE 4.0 / Kubuntu 8.04 "4" clients be made to join #kubuntu-kde4 automatically, instead? [01:47] that would be an idea, however there aren't really any KDE4 IRC clients :) [01:48] There is that. [01:48] konversation isn't ported and kopete seems to have lost IRC from it's abilities [01:49] and konversation won't be ported for quite a while yet, they plan on a 1.1 before the port starts [01:50] Well, I am confident however that, since Canonical has elected to ship Hardy through their ShipIt service, they will invest the resources to give it core abilities such as being able to connect to the official Ubuntu IRC support channels. === Varka_ is now known as Varka [01:53] i think the decision of irc applications lies with the kubuntu dev team anyway, not us [01:54] LjL, was this the only agenda item? [01:54] Of course. [01:54] elkbuntu: I'm afraid so. [01:55] sorry i wasnt here for more of it, but it appears a reasonable agreement was reached [01:56] elkbuntu: nothing was argued. [01:56] elkbuntu: this was an informational meeting, it seems [01:56] If you want an impromptu topic, I have one... [01:56] ah, crap. knew i forgot something. [01:57] Afternoon Hobbsee :) [01:57] heya [01:57] nalioth, i believe the document was reviewed and a concensus reached -- that is an agreement in my books [01:57] Hobbsee: Yes, indeed... you might want to check the logs. [02:04] Hobbsee, anything you want to add? [02:05] * Hobbsee hasn't read logs yet [02:06] Hardy is out in a few months, think we should start looking for a couple more ops for #ubuntu to get a little experience for when it busies up again? [02:07] PriceChild, we're constantly looking anyway [02:08] As elkbuntu says... I'm always open to suggestions from you folks. [02:09] hm [02:10] anyway, anything else? [02:11] I have nothing. [02:15] Well, I was thinking that perhaps we should start routinely informing people about the operators channel when they may have a compelling need to discuss us there. [02:16] fair enough [02:17] all though it make fly-by rescues hard [02:22] Well, I think we may discuss this in more detail, if it needs to be, later. I think overall we can all agree that information helps... then it's a matter of implementation. [02:23] I suppose we can finish it here, although perhaps if Hobbsee has something to say, since the topic we've mostly talked about (although not in agenda) is of interest to her... [02:24] * Hobbsee has a quick look [02:24] ah. my clone is not in here anyway [02:25] Hobbsee, will pastebin [02:25] LjL: thanks [02:25] Hobbsee: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/52102/ [02:28] LjL: only that the authority here belongs to the effective council [02:28] [02:29:28] Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision... [02:29] Hobbsee: to which i responded "this is my opinion" [02:29] i think that's correct, and i think that you need to give the respective councils the responsiblity *not* to come up with crack, and that therefore your discussions on "is this really the right thing to do?" is irrelevant. [02:30] nalioth: adn the perception is that the council can then go and vote against what the kubuntu council has decided. [02:30] i am not irrevelant. [02:30] no, but your discussions on something already decided is. [02:30] Hobbsee, but see also my comments on how it can end up affecting #ubuntu too (although that doesn't make it any more competing to us, it just means we are an interested party) [02:30] Hobbsee: my opinion was not on what was decided. it was for what the future holds === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting [02:31] LjL: still getting down that far [02:33] LjL: oh, of course. [02:33] LjL: and i see your point [02:34] LjL: but, i'm disappointed that the irc council doesn't see it that hte kubuntu council, or whichever council, has the right to decide what channels they want to provide support in, [02:34] and that they feel the need to display their opinions, as if they're going to vote on whether it should be there or nto. [02:35] We're not against that at all... [02:35] in the -kde4 case, we weren't told about the kubuntu council deciding anything, I was just told to do what the irc wanted by the contact... [02:36] PriceChild: so, you email the council to check, before doing anything. [02:36] if they've been lax enough nto to email you. [02:36] Hobbsee: I think we did state in this meeting that you have the right to decide that, however... [02:36] Hobbsee, ok so tomorrow... someone randomly creates #xubuntu-foo, then tells me to do what I want with it. Do you expect me to email the xubuntu devs? [02:36] LjL: true. iw as more discussing previously (as i haven't seen nalioth prior to this) [02:37] PriceChild: if they're known as xubuntu-type people, and in the absence of an xubuntu council, yes, absolutely. === \sh is now known as \sh_away [02:37] PriceChild: or your channel contact for xubuntu-related channels, which is somerville32. [02:37] Hobbsee, "they're"? [02:37] No, sorry Hobbsee, but I don't agree. While that "Creating channels" document in the agenda is, by consensus, only a help document, I think the IRC Council can, should (and routinely does) temporarily close/redirect channels that are simply not set up. A channel with one operator is one where the CoC is simply unenforceable, to begin with. [02:37] somerville32: those who registered it [02:37] Hobbsee, no, we are contact for xubuntu [02:38] PriceChild: technically, yes, but you should contact the one who has a lot of say in xubuntu-related stuff. [02:38] PriceChild, You're also the contact for Kubuntu and Ubuntu [02:38] even if the person who created this random channel gave me full access... the channel was empty, and i was given NO sign that the kubuntu people in general had had much to do wit hit? [02:39] somerville32, not for kubunt [02:39] No? [02:39] somerville32, that's hobbsee [02:39] Also, Hobbsee, you already know that Kubuntu developers themselves weren't clear about the channel status, when we redirected it back to #kubuntu. The *failsafe* decision we should and do make, in such a case, is to restore the previous situation (i.e. redirect to #ubuntu), not avoid acting until further notice. [02:39] somerville32, /msg chanserv info #channel [02:40] PriceChild: then that sounds more suss, and i'd *definetly* ask [02:40] We are the IRC Council, and as such we deal with what is technical on IRC. A channel that is not setup, and where the operators aren't clear on its status, is a channel we can reasonably put on hold. [02:40] Hobbsee, "more suss"/ [02:40] PriceChild: more suspicious [02:40] PriceChild, Ok. So do you think you could set me as the channel contact for #xubuntu and that'll clear that up :) [02:40] somerville32, nice try. [02:41] LjL: i see the point in your redirect, i'm just more objecting to what you do after that. i don't remembre seeing an email [02:41] only being poked by my extra client, which i only read once a day or so :) [02:41] Hobbsee, sorry for not sending an email, but I believe that messaging you on IRC, which I did, would be sufficient. [02:41] LjL: to my active nick please, not my clone. but granted :) [02:42] PriceChild, If there is a problem with an Xubuntu channel, I would image you would contact us, right? Regardless of whose name is printed on the contact field for one of the xubuntu chanels. [02:42] somerville32, depends on the channel [02:42] depends on the problem [02:42] PriceChild: it wouldn't be an entirely bad idea, though. [02:42] Hobbsee, what wouldn't? [02:42] PriceChild: somerville32 does have a lot of care about xubuntu stuff [02:42] making him the channel contact. [02:42] ah [02:42] Then we may as well go back to being the #ubuntu contact and that's it :) [02:42] Might as well, I guess. [02:42] well, at least notifying of him of any major changes [02:43] I'm just not happy with him asking *me* personally rather than the four of us as a group. I'm not just going to go out on a limb and do soemthing like that, [02:43] somerville32: Well, it would be a waste to waste all this IRC Council creation, which involved CC meetings, and everything... but everything's possible. [02:43] LjL: do you actually follow kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features, etc? [02:43] LjL, I think the IRC Council has its place [02:43] Hobbsee, pardon? [02:43] LjL: (and should you even be expected to?) [02:43] I don't mind if the IRCCouncil is the contact for #xubuntu personally [02:44] It doesn't change that it is an Xubuntu channel [02:44] PriceChild: the channel contact for a distro/flavour should really be running the distro/flavour, so it has a good idea of what the current issues are, no? [02:44] Don't you mean the other way around? [02:45] Hobbsee, I am a Kubuntu user and a #kubuntu operator (not because of being an IRC Council member, just because I've been an operator for quite some time). I follow Kubuntu more closely than I follow Ubuntu. Anyway, that is hardly very relevant from my point of view. What is relevant is *the support questions that I see asked and answered on a channel*. I can judge that pretty well, without being in close contact with the developers. [02:45] * stdin notes that LjL is an active helper in -kde4 too [02:46] LjL: i was menaing the council globally, not yourself. [02:46] I think I am arguably in a *better* position than the developers to know whether an additional channel is needed or not for something. We certainly (I think) didn't ask the Ubuntu (GNOME) developers when opening, and then closing, #ubuntu-effects, for instance. [02:46] LjL: you would be welcome as a co-contact, if you wished. [02:46] LjL: council != developers, per se [02:46] Why does someone need to be a contact of a channel according to chanserv to be able to read the channel and see current issues? [02:46] Hobbsee: That is why i said it was hardly relevant from my point of view. [02:46] hwo many of the CC are developers? [02:46] PriceChild: they don't. it's just a notify list [02:46] a notify list? [02:48] Hobbsee, ok, I rectify that - I am, as an IRC person, in a better position than *anyone who is not an IRC person* to judge the *support requirements* of an IRC channel. You are an IRC person yourself, so this is not about #kubuntu-kde4 (which we disagree about, but disagreements happens), but in general... not closely following "kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features" is, in my opinion, hardly detrimental to understanding the [02:48] needs of an IRC channel that one *does* follow. [02:49] (And following the channel in such a way, really, ends up meaning you *are* updated on releases and new features, anyway...) [02:50] (At least in so much detail as is needed for an IRC person to understand the channel's needs) [02:50] LjL: your lack of knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy isn't helpful, though :( [02:50] i think you guys were shown the meeting logs [02:50] Hobbsee: my opinion was for the future, not the 'now'. [02:51] Hobbsee: That's possibly because it didn't seem very clear to the Kubuntu developers I talked to, themselves. [02:51] I think that Hobbsee makes a good point. Furthermore, shouldn't the people actually working on the project/team be the contact for the channel? [02:51] somerville32, why?! [02:51] LjL: it was in the meeting log, and was fairly clear there, i thought. [02:51] Because if they're doing the work, they should be able to set the policy for _their_ channel, eh? [02:51] somerville32, I've nothing personal against you, I hardly know you etc. etc. - I just don't see what this change would aid. [02:51] LjL: it was a unanimous decision about what would get released. [02:52] somerville32, and normal access doesn't allow this? [02:52] somerville32: they may not want to do the day to day mangling of the namespace [02:52] Hobbsee, Right so I image they're free to delegate [02:52] I'm just saying they should have that option. It should ultimately be up to them, right? [02:52] Hobbsee, well, is my vision of it as I've showed it in this meeting very unaligned with what was actually decided? [02:53] LjL: sorry, i've lost some context, i don't see what "it" is [02:53] Hobbsee: "knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy" [02:54] LjL: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~jpatrick/minutes/ [02:54] somerville32, are you somehow saying that the developers should be the ones providing IRC support? [02:55] LjL: we're releasing a kde3 hardy, a kde4 hardy, of which both have various targets [02:55] most people in the irc council appear to thin kthat we're not doing a kde3 hardy release at all [02:55] * PriceChild headdesks [02:55] based on what i've read [02:55] LjL: so, tbh, 'im not sure [02:55] whosawhatsawhensa? [02:55] Hobbsee: You appear to read your mind if you say that... but you appear to read it wrong, because I know perfectly well that a KDE 3 release will happen. [02:55] LjL: i was thinking of pricey and nalioth, in particualr [02:56] LjL, No but the Xubuntu team should decide who is, right? :) [02:56] Hobbsee, nalioth hardly remembered the time of the meeting, or that there was a meeting at all. He doesn't count ;) [02:56] Hobbsee: not at all, did you actually read the backlogs in here? [02:57] nalioth: yeah. in with the rest of hte jumble. i may not be remembering everything clearly [02:57] somerville32, i believe we're talking about kubuntu at the moment [02:57] Hobbsee: i rendered an opinion on the future. [02:57] * Hobbsee doesn't really see the point of continuing this, though [02:57] Hobbsee: i said nothing about anything that LjL has brought up since you arrived [02:57] I think he is referring to i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4 [02:58] LjL: i was thinking about that option. [02:58] i _do_ keep up with what is going on [02:58] nalioth, I was only joking. [02:58] I guess we just haven't expressed ourselves very well then. [02:59] PriceChild: +1 [02:59] PriceChild: in the general case, forward it, and sort it out by email. [02:59] adn irc pings, etc. [02:59] pardon? [02:59] er, forward the chanenl, and sort it out with the people involved via email [03:00] Still no idea what you're talking about? [03:00] PriceChild: when someone clueful next sets up a channel that seems strange, forward it, and contact the relevant people via email / irc pings to their primary nicks / etc [03:01] That's what we did no? [03:01] PriceChild: to their primary nicks? [03:01] er, nick? [03:01] Hobbsee: Don't worry, next time something like this happen, you'll have even pagers that you don't have ringing :-P [03:01] PriceChild, minus the communication i believe [03:01] LjL: *grin* [03:01] PriceChild: yes, the communication part is the part i'm emphasising [03:03] Hobbsee, however we meant no malice when, seeing how stdin, say, came and said "hey, people are joining #kubuntu-kde4, is that right? is it open yet?", we thought it should *not* yet be open in intentions, and forwarded it back. [03:03] LjL: agreed. i would have just preferred an email notification, or an irc message to my primary nick, saying "are you aware of this?" [03:04] it's like the irc memos. does anyone actually check them? [03:04] * PriceChild does [03:04] * somerville32 isn't important enough to get any [03:04] * Hobbsee does every once in a while, but they're not great for urgent communication [03:04] Hobbsee, I hardly check e-mail, for that matter... as I said, next time I'll employ all forms of communication that I can think of, just to be sure. Don't cry foul for excessive spam then, though :D [03:05] somerville32, please dont be like that in here, it does nothing for your cause [03:05] LjL: *grin* [03:05] LjL: i get enough email as it is :) [03:05] * somerville32 raises an eyebrow at elkbuntu. [03:05] LjL: but yes, multiple forms == more chance it gets thru. [03:05] LjL: i'd prefer to be spammed than to be in the dark, indefinetly. [03:05] if it's something important [03:05] * elkbuntu agrees with Hobbsee [03:07] right as I was about to shutdown :) [03:07] why is this "kubuntu-kde4" channel coming about? [03:07] I tried to read the scroll back but it went everywhere [03:07] Hobbsee: Well, come on, you are on IRC daily, you were bound to see my PM in a day or two's time at most, and you did... I mean, sure, it probably was a pretty poor choice to contact you by sending a message to your "idle" nickname (but being the IRC type I am, e-mail hardly even crosses my mind), but "left in the dark"... [03:08] nixternal, the "why" wasn't discussed in this meeting, it was discussed in Kubuntu meetings [03:08] I sure hope they didn't decide on a 2nd Kubuntu support channel [03:09] nixternal: wasn't that the meeting decision? [03:09] nixternal, no, a kde4 support channel [03:09] that is #kde [03:09] a Kubuntu KDE 3 or 4 support channel is #kubuntu [03:10] nixternal, this isnt the meeting to be arguing that point at anyway, it was a kubuntu council decision, not ours [03:10] We're not going over this again... hobbsee and stdin say the kubuntu people made the decision... its done. They'll review it on hardy's release. [03:11] jesus, why we are at it, why don't we just create a kubuntu-kde4 team too...stupid [03:12] * Hobbsee notes there already is a kubuntu-members-kde4 one atm. [03:12] :) [03:12] heh, true [03:12] nixternal: folks didn't join the meeting in time, and the scrollback isn't the best place to respond from [03:12] Hobbsee: sorry... QED. nixternal seems to be a Kubuntu Council member according to Launchpad. [03:12] this meeting has never been about #kubuntu-kde4 [03:12] LjL, oh you're joking? [03:12] So, really, I think my impression that Kubuntu people themselves weren't clear on the issue is pretty tenable. [03:13] nixternal, take this up with the rest of the kubuntu people please [03:13] LjL: it was not a unanimous decision, no. [03:13] but fair enough, retake it up with the kubuntu people. === bigon is now known as bigon` [03:14] various council members, and other people, expressed differing opinions [03:15] various council members weren't even aware of the final decision it seems [03:15] Hobbsee: Sure, that's not my business, just reinforces my opinion that 1) by closing the channel while its status was far from clear, we made the right decision, and 2) on IRC matters, the IRC council, as it deals with IRC issues daily, is probably a good guidance organism to consult if one so elects to. [03:16] We closed the channel for what.... 12 hours? In this period of confusion I don't think that was fatal. Things sort of got cleaned up and we've gotten there in the end. [03:16] * Hobbsee shrugs [03:16] * Hobbsee really doesn't care anymore. [03:17] let nixternal deal with it, and all the support. [03:17] :/ [03:17] don't think so [03:17] let him become the channel contact, so he gets to handle it when it all goes wrong. [03:17] What was the cost of _not_ closing the channel? [03:17] somerville32, confusion of users that were joining it for support... when no-one else was there and better answers availiable in #kubunt. [03:17] somerville32: people being given the wrong support answers, due to using the wrong version of kde than the supporter was expecting. [03:18] And you're saying that, that would not have occurred if everyone stayed in #kubuntu? [03:19] hm, then i read your question wrong. [03:19] that would occur if people stayed in the same channel [03:19] but, like i say, i really don't care anymore. it's all nixternal's decision, or someone else from teh council's. [03:19] that is true, considering most people on IRC can't ask a question properly in the first place [03:19] nixternal: they tend to get fairly quickly taught that they'r ein the wrong place. [03:20] or get disollusioned, as they didn't get an answer, as no one knew [03:20] somerville32: It would have. What would have *also* occurred, however, was that some people would have joined #kubuntu-kde4 (because they had already started to, somehow), while others would receive their KDE 4 support in #kubuntu, to only discover that they couldn't get it anymore the following day, being told to join #kubuntu-kde4... which however, forwarded back to #kubuntu, etc. You see, niceties like this is what a badly set up channel brings. [03:36] Right shall we call it there? [03:41] I think that's a "yes" [03:42] Yes... === _czessi is now known as Czessi === bigon` is now known as bigon === Exitium is now known as AlexForster === bigon is now known as bigon` === bigon` is now known as bigon === bigon is now known as bigon` === bigon` is now known as bigon === bigon is now known as bigon` === bigon` is now known as bigon === \sh_away is now known as \sh === bigon is now known as bigon` === bigon` is now known as bigon === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting === asac_ is now known as asac [11:56] * ogra waves .... [11:56] anybody here for the edubuntu meeting [11:57] (the fridge schedule is somehow gotten out of sync, actually it should have been the late meeting today) [12:03] heya === doko_ is now known as doko [12:04] hi stgraber [12:04] edubuntu meeting ... let's get started [12:04] ogra: technical ? [12:04] still working on the ltsp move to the ubuntu CD [12:05] the general client building works fine now with a preseed value .... [12:05] but i have a slight problem with the ssh keys (i hope to solve today) [12:06] the ltsp interface isnt up at the point where i generate the keys in the installer, once i have solved this its done [12:06] i talked to cjwatson_about a menu entry, we'll likely have something in the Cd bootmenu at release time [12:07] yeah, the delay is my fault, it's blocked on me sorting out more general CD bootloader issues [12:07] beyond that i'm working on the classmate image builder, which i hope to finish during the distro sprint next week === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson [12:07] cjwatson, no problem [12:07] (regarding which unfortunately I have nobody to delegate to at the moment) [12:08] lets talk about it at the sprint [12:08] seems i'm turning into something like the -alternate maintainer here anyway since i test it regulary now [12:10] anyway, i hope we can get rid of the edubuntu-server CD next week as well, as soon as i know ltsp is fine [12:10] so alpha4 might be the big change in edubuntu CD design [12:11] thats all about tech so far [12:11] any questions ? [12:11] hey flint [12:11] ogra, Good Morning! [12:11] mr flint sir ... a rare honour to have you grace us with your esteemed presence [12:12] hi flint [12:12] RichEd, Nice touch, my dear friend... [12:12] Greetings one and all... [12:13] oh, one thing, we have a community guy (johnny) who takes a bit care for sabayon ... [12:13] and LaserJock seems to have the menu stuff working properly for the first time :) [12:14] and for everyone who wonders where sbalneav went for the last 6 weeks, i was told he's fine yesterday and will show up again soon [12:14] ogra: LaserJock mentioned that in the channel last week, but says he needs someone to do a neat GUI front end [12:14] any ideas who could help ? or mentor ? [12:16] not really [12:16] and imho it should be integrated into the menu editor [12:16] not have a separate GUI [12:17] (which is indeed more work and cant happen for hardy) [12:17] feature freeze is on feb 14th [12:17] who currently looks after the menu editor ... and is the menu editor edubuntu only or ubuntu general [12:17] ubuntu [12:17] it needs a hook to allow such additions first [12:17] then someone needs to write a plugin that uses this hook [12:18] i think thats beyond hardy [12:18] and can LaserJocks work be used in any (manual edit) useful way for Hardy ? [12:18] well [12:18] yuo can ... but i wouldnt recommend that [12:19] hi pips1 [12:19] ogra: okay [12:20] hi [12:20] ogra: hmm, so, the FF being on 14th, it'd be a good idea to have my new italc uploaded next week or the week after, so we can work on the MIR ? [12:20] a happy new year to all [12:20] stgraber, yup [12:20] the next two weeks are the essential ones :) [12:20] ogra: quick classmate 8.04 question ... if general *buntu hardy has a beta release date of March 20, do you expect we will have a beta classmate image around then ? [12:21] RichEd, not sure, but i would suspect so [12:21] thanks ... [12:21] i didnt think about the milestones yet [12:22] in the end it will use the livefs builder to build the actual squashfs image [12:22] but the part after this that actually assembles the image in a usable state will be different from the currently used debian-cd scripts [12:24] that means we'll have daily built squashfs'es but i cant predict the second setps automation yet [12:24] ogra, is this a bad time to mention the eepro? [12:24] (teh squashfs built on beta day would then be the beta [12:24] ) [12:24] :^) [12:24] flint, i dont care about the triple e at all [12:25] it doesnt have the limitations the classmate has [12:25] ogra, sorry, and I missed an e... :^) [12:25] apart from screen resolution its a fully fledged laptop [12:25] ogra, I saw one and it was an illicit and forbidden love that bloomed... [12:25] so you can go with a normal install there [12:25] :^) [12:26] classmate needs special treatment due to disk and ram limitations [12:26] ogra, gotcha [12:28] anyway, anything else for tech ? [12:29] ogra: should we introduce the artwork topic now ... for 8.10 ... is there anyone around as a result of the art team mail thread ? [12:30] RichEd, yup [12:30] anyone here from the art team ? [12:30] doesn seem like [12:30] sad [12:31] after the noise they made i'd have expected some enthusiasm ... [12:31] doesnt seem like [12:32] there was a call on the mailing list? [12:32] RichEd, go on then with community ... [12:32] * pips1 searches his archive [12:32] pips1, there was a discussion on the ubuntu-art list [12:32] ah [12:32] ic [12:32] ogra: well let's button down the art requirements anyway ... then find the worker bodies :) [12:32] starting with "we need to change *everything*" edubuntu is not how we like it [12:33] we still have JillC keen and able and willing [12:33]