[00:51] <emgent> @now
[00:51] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 00:51:29 - Current meeting: IRC Council
[01:00] <PriceChild> Its that time again!
[01:01] <Pici> Howdy Doody time?
[01:02] <tritium> Hello!
[01:02] <Pici> Why hello thar.
[01:04]  * nalioth drops a pin
[01:04] <PriceChild> bong
[01:05] <Pici> Hm, not much on the agenda.
[01:06] <PriceChild> "yet"
[01:06] <Pici> Oh boy.
[01:06]  * Pici waits for nalioth to get his fingers on it.
[01:07] <nalioth> are we all here?
[01:07] <PriceChild> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[01:07] <nalioth> did we want to discuss the #kubuntu-kde4 thing?
[01:07] <Pici> I think we wanted to discuss how to prevent it in the future.
[01:08] <nalioth> i'd just like to venture my opinion on #kubuntu-kde4.
[01:08] <LjL> Kind of, I guess. The item I put in the agenda is about a documents for operators that should help when creating new channels. Nothing exceptional, just a checklist of things we generally do in such cases.
[01:08] <LjL> Perhaps we want to wait for elkbuntu, though?
[01:09] <Pici> Did she say she was able to make it?
[01:10] <tritium> gah, I had wanted to attend, but I'm being called off.  Take care, all.
[01:10] <LjL> Pici: she said so
[01:13] <LjL> Well, anyway, the document I prepared is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels - if you want to start having a look. I think more than "approving" it, it's a matter of technically proofreading it...
[01:14] <PriceChild> Is the seeking the approval bit necessary?
[01:15] <Pici> We should at least be notified.
[01:15] <LjL> PriceChild, we may debate that. Do we want it to simply be a "help" document, or should it actually be something that people are *required* to follow when creating a channel?
[01:15] <LjL> It can be used both ways, I guess.
[01:15] <PriceChild> The informing people bit near the end.... yeah ok. But .................. "help" imo
[01:16] <PriceChild> We've talked about this before and been pretty much of the opinion "damned if we do, damned if we don't" so I don't think it right to be requiring it from people.
[01:18] <Pici> I don't think its too much to ask for a notification that a new channel in the #ubuntu namespace is being activated.
[01:18] <PriceChild> No I'm happy with suggesting that,
[01:21] <LjL> To connect to the #kubuntu-kde4 issue, however, I think it *is* reasonable of us, when a channel doesn't seem to be approved by the team holding the namespace, and/or it's not set up (i.e. basically nothing in that checklist has been followed, it's an empty channel with no operators, no real way to enforce respecting the CoC, etc), to temporarily close it until it is set up for the "public".
[01:22] <nalioth> my issue is not about that.
[01:26] <nalioth> my issue is that i think we're gonna be creating "second class citizens"
[01:26] <LjL> nalioth: what do you mean with that?
[01:26] <nalioth> Hardy is gonna officially ship with kde3 and kde4.
[01:27] <nalioth> depending on what the user chooses, he's not gonna be welcomed in #kubuntu
[01:27] <Pici> Ah, so the creation of a sub-channel is what irks you.
[01:27] <nalioth> Pici: i believe it will 'irk' a lot of folks (we serve the world, you know)
[01:27] <LjL> nalioth: My understanding is that, once Hardy is released, it would be supported in #kubuntu and #kubuntu-kde4 would be closed...
[01:27] <LjL> I could be wrong about that, however.
[01:28] <PriceChild> That's the impression I got also.
[01:28] <nalioth> LjL: i've heard other info since
[01:28] <nalioth> which is why i'm offering my opinion
[01:28] <Pici> I got the impression that -kde4 would be open indefinitely
[01:29] <LjL> Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision...
[01:29] <nalioth> LjL: which is why i keep using the word 'opinion"
[01:29] <LjL> Pici: That is almost certainly not the case.
[01:30] <LjL> nalioth: Sure. Perhaps we should invite the people in #kubuntu-devel (or whatever the most appropriate channel is) to this meeting to discuss the issue?
[01:30] <PriceChild> where's hobbsee? :)
[01:31] <stdin> LjL: in a discussion with hobbsee in -irc we agreed to keep it open post-release and re-asses when KDE4 has a larger user-base
[01:31] <stdin> erm, in -ops, not -irc
[01:32] <PriceChild> stdin, with hardy shipping with kde4 aren't you expecting it to become the norm?
[01:32] <stdin> we reasoned that many people would try kde4, but then go back to a more stable kde3
[01:33] <LjL> well, stdin, as long as Kubuntu "3" and Kubuntu "4" are two separate release, Kubuntu "3" being prominently promoted as the "stable" release, and Kubuntu "4" as a bleeding-edge, potentially unstable one, that would seem reasonable.
[01:33] <PriceChild> That's not exactly going to be easy though? swapping the installed packages?
[01:33] <stdin> PriceChild: some will switch, others won't
[01:33] <LjL> Otherwise, my own opinion is that it is not.
[01:33] <PriceChild> I had enough of a time swapping between gnome and kde4.
[01:33] <stdin> afaik, on the downloads section there will indeed be 2 images
[01:33] <nalioth> LjL: but both are gonna "officially" ship with Hardy
[01:33] <PriceChild> but kde4 will be on shipit only, and kde4 will be promoted most?
[01:33] <nalioth> LjL: no "this is stable" and "this is nose-bleed"
[01:34] <PriceChild> gah this isn't really relevant
[01:34] <nalioth> right. i gave my opinion.
[01:34] <LjL> nalioth: Well, although not really a very comparable example, Compiz/Beryl "shipped" (in Universe, though) with various versions of Ubuntu. Yet we had a channel set up specifically for Compiz/Beryl issues (#ubuntu-effects, now closed), and didn't deal with them in #ubuntu.
[01:34] <stdin> yes we will promote KDE4, we know it's "not ready for the average user", but the more users we get the more bugs we find an fix, and so make the next release better
[01:35] <nalioth> right, LjL, that's not comparable at all
[01:35] <LjL> However, I recognize that the desktop environment of a distribution is something a little more "core".
[01:35] <PriceChild> The big thing that confuses me.... is why #kubuntu can't handle both.
[01:36] <nalioth> i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4
[01:36] <nalioth> PriceChild: well, that also confuses me, but the kubuntu ops say that it can't.
[01:36] <stdin> PriceChild: because the 2 environments are different enough to cause a lot of confusion when trying to ask/answer questions
[01:36] <LjL> stdin, if I were to decide, I'd say that you can't have it both ways... either you go with the risk of shipping something "bleeding-edge", cross your fingers, and support it in #kubuntu... or you shouldn't say "Yes, we promote this very loudly, but... we don't support it in our official channel...! Because it's bleeding-edge and it would stop those poor KDE 3 users, who use a real system and not an unstable one, from getting support".
[01:37] <PriceChild> stdin, people aren't going to join #kubuntu-kde4 before #kubuntu
[01:37] <PriceChild> stdin, they will join #kubuntu, then get annoyed when they're told to go to #kubuntu-kde4
[01:37] <PriceChild> stdin, they might even join #ubuntu, be told to go to #kubuntu, then again moved to #kubuntu-kde4
[01:38]  * PriceChild uses #ubuntuforums, #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-effects as examples of the above.
[01:38] <LjL> Also, while (as I said) I believe that deciding whether a channel such as #kubuntu-kde4 should be created or not doesn't compete to us, I think it would be important for us to be part of the process that leads to creating it.
[01:38] <LjL> I say this because such an important channel has implications over channels we manage directly, as well: currently, for instance, I am instructing people who ask about KDE 4.0 in #ubuntu (not just #kubuntu) to join #kubuntu-kde4 instead.
[01:38] <LjL> Nobody has really decided this, though, I am doing it myself because I think it's reasonable: it would be, I think, pretty paradoxical if #kubuntu didn't accept questions about KDE 4.0, but #ubuntu did.
[01:40] <stdin> I personally wan't involved in creating the channel, I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do at the start
[01:40] <stdin> so I think that a more open process to doing such (and announcements) would be good
[01:41] <stdin> however, it does exist now. be it only with 27 users. we expect that number to increase
[01:41] <PriceChild> I don't think anything was ever formally decided, things just happened and people got angry.
[01:41] <stdin> we've decided to keep -kde4 for a while to "see how it goes", and we'll re-assess it soon after hardy and a few times after
[01:42] <PriceChild> ok
[01:43] <stdin> we basically just want to see what the response to and take-up of kde4 is going to be like before we include it into the main channel
[01:43] <elkbuntu> ok, im here
[01:44] <LjL> elkbuntu, hi, we're discussing #kubuntu-kde4 as you can see, and I showed a document I've written about creating new channels ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/CreatingChannels ), although the consensus to me seems to be that it should only be a "help" document for operators, and not a policy.
[01:45] <elkbuntu> LjL, i would agree with that
[01:47] <LjL> stdin: I've been suggested something, by the way. As far as I know, the default Kubuntu IRC client(s) join #kubuntu by default... Couldn't the KDE 4.0 / Kubuntu 8.04 "4" clients be made to join #kubuntu-kde4 automatically, instead?
[01:47] <stdin> that would be an idea, however there aren't really any KDE4 IRC clients :)
[01:48] <LjL> There is that.
[01:48] <stdin> konversation isn't ported and kopete seems to have lost IRC from it's abilities
[01:49] <stdin> and konversation won't be ported for quite a while yet, they plan on a 1.1 before the port starts
[01:50] <LjL> Well, I am confident however that, since Canonical has elected to ship Hardy through their ShipIt service, they will invest the resources to give it core abilities such as being able to connect to the official Ubuntu IRC support channels.
[01:53] <elkbuntu> i think the decision of irc applications lies with the kubuntu dev team anyway, not us
[01:54] <elkbuntu> LjL, was this the only agenda item?
[01:54] <LjL> Of course.
[01:54] <LjL> elkbuntu: I'm afraid so.
[01:55] <elkbuntu> sorry i wasnt here for more of it, but it appears a reasonable agreement was reached
[01:56] <nalioth> elkbuntu: nothing was argued.
[01:56] <nalioth> elkbuntu: this was an informational meeting, it seems
[01:56] <LjL> If you want an impromptu topic, I have one...
[01:56] <Hobbsee> ah, crap.  knew i forgot something.
[01:57] <PriceChild> Afternoon Hobbsee :)
[01:57] <Hobbsee> heya
[01:57] <elkbuntu> nalioth, i believe the document was reviewed and a concensus reached -- that is an agreement in my books
[01:57] <LjL> Hobbsee: Yes, indeed... you might want to check the logs.
[02:04] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, anything you want to add?
[02:05]  * Hobbsee hasn't read logs yet
[02:06] <PriceChild> Hardy is out in a few months, think we should start looking for a couple more ops for #ubuntu to get a little experience for when it busies up again?
[02:07] <elkbuntu> PriceChild, we're constantly looking anyway
[02:08] <LjL> As elkbuntu says... I'm always open to suggestions from you folks.
[02:09] <Pici> hm
[02:10] <PriceChild> anyway, anything else?
[02:11] <Pici> I have nothing.
[02:15] <LjL> Well, I was thinking that perhaps we should start routinely informing people about the operators channel when they may have a compelling need to discuss us there.
[02:16] <elkbuntu> fair enough
[02:17] <elkbuntu> all though it make fly-by rescues hard
[02:22] <LjL> Well, I think we may discuss this in more detail, if it needs to be, later. I think overall we can all agree that information helps... then it's a matter of implementation.
[02:23] <LjL> I suppose we can finish it here, although perhaps if Hobbsee has something to say, since the topic we've mostly talked about (although not in agenda) is of interest to her...
[02:24]  * Hobbsee has a quick look
[02:24] <Hobbsee> ah.  my clone is not in here anyway
[02:25] <LjL> Hobbsee, will pastebin
[02:25] <Hobbsee> LjL: thanks
[02:25] <LjL> Hobbsee: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/52102/
[02:28] <Hobbsee> LjL: only that the authority here belongs to the effective council
[02:28] <Hobbsee> [02:29:28] <LjL> Well, nalioth, but in any case I don't think we have any authority, really, on the issue, do we? If the Kubuntu Council makes a decision about the #kubuntu channel and its namespace, I don't think the IRC Team can or should overrule such decision...
[02:29] <nalioth> Hobbsee: to which i responded "this is my opinion"
[02:29] <Hobbsee> i think that's correct, and i think that you need to give the respective councils the responsiblity *not* to come up with crack, and that therefore your discussions on "is this really the right thing to do?" is irrelevant.
[02:30] <Hobbsee> nalioth: adn the perception is that the council can then go and vote against what the kubuntu council has decided.
[02:30] <nalioth> i am not irrevelant.
[02:30] <Hobbsee> no, but your discussions on something already decided is.
[02:30] <LjL> Hobbsee, but see also my comments on how it can end up affecting #ubuntu too (although that doesn't make it any more competing to us, it just means we are an interested party)
[02:30] <nalioth> Hobbsee: my opinion was not on what was decided. it was for what the future holds
[02:31] <Hobbsee> LjL: still getting down that far
[02:33] <Hobbsee> LjL: oh, of course.
[02:33] <Hobbsee> LjL: and i see your point
[02:34] <Hobbsee> LjL: but, i'm disappointed that the irc council doesn't see it that hte kubuntu council, or whichever council, has the right to decide what channels they want to provide support in,
[02:34] <Hobbsee> and that they feel the need to display their opinions, as if they're going to vote on whether it should be there or nto.
[02:35] <PriceChild> We're not against that at all...
[02:35] <PriceChild> in the -kde4 case, we weren't told about the kubuntu council deciding anything, I was just told to do what the irc wanted by the contact...
[02:36] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: so, you email the council to check, before doing anything.
[02:36] <Hobbsee> if they've been lax enough nto to email you.
[02:36] <LjL> Hobbsee: I think we did state in this meeting that you have the right to decide that, however...
[02:36] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, ok so tomorrow... someone randomly creates #xubuntu-foo, then tells me to do what I want with it. Do you expect me to email the xubuntu devs?
[02:36] <Hobbsee> LjL: true.  iw as more discussing previously (as i haven't seen nalioth prior to this)
[02:37] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: if they're known as xubuntu-type people, and in the absence of an xubuntu council, yes, absolutely.
[02:37] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: or your channel contact for xubuntu-related channels, which is somerville32.
[02:37] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, "they're"?
[02:37] <LjL> No, sorry Hobbsee, but I don't agree. While that "Creating channels" document in the agenda is, by consensus, only a help document, I think the IRC Council can, should (and routinely does) temporarily close/redirect channels that are simply not set up. A channel with one operator is one where the CoC is simply unenforceable, to begin with.
[02:37] <Hobbsee> somerville32: those who registered it
[02:37] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, no, we are contact for xubuntu
[02:38] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: technically, yes, but you should contact the one who has a lot of say in xubuntu-related stuff.
[02:38] <somerville32> PriceChild, You're also the contact for Kubuntu and Ubuntu
[02:38] <PriceChild> even if the person who created this random channel gave me full access... the channel was empty, and i was given NO sign that the kubuntu people in general had had much to do wit hit?
[02:39] <PriceChild> somerville32, not for kubunt
[02:39] <somerville32> No?
[02:39] <PriceChild> somerville32, that's hobbsee
[02:39] <LjL> Also, Hobbsee, you already know that Kubuntu developers themselves weren't clear about the channel status, when we redirected it back to #kubuntu. The *failsafe* decision we should and do make, in such a case, is to restore the previous situation (i.e. redirect to #ubuntu), not avoid acting until further notice.
[02:39] <PriceChild> somerville32, /msg chanserv info #channel
[02:40] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: then that sounds more suss, and i'd *definetly* ask
[02:40] <LjL> We are the IRC Council, and as such we deal with what is technical on IRC. A channel that is not setup, and where the operators aren't clear on its status, is a channel we can reasonably put on hold.
[02:40] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, "more suss"/
[02:40] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: more suspicious
[02:40] <somerville32> PriceChild, Ok. So do you think you could set me as the channel contact for #xubuntu and that'll clear that up :)
[02:40] <PriceChild> somerville32, nice try.
[02:41] <Hobbsee> LjL: i see the point in your redirect, i'm just more objecting to what you do after that.  i don't remembre seeing an email
[02:41] <Hobbsee> only being poked by my extra client, which i only read once a day or so :)
[02:41] <LjL> Hobbsee, sorry for not sending an email, but I believe that messaging you on IRC, which I did, would be sufficient.
[02:41] <Hobbsee> LjL: to my active nick please, not my clone.  but granted :)
[02:42] <somerville32> PriceChild, If there is a problem with an Xubuntu channel, I would image you would contact us, right? Regardless of whose name is printed on the contact field for one of the xubuntu chanels.
[02:42] <PriceChild> somerville32, depends on the channel
[02:42] <PriceChild> depends on the problem
[02:42] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: it wouldn't be an entirely bad idea, though.
[02:42] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, what wouldn't?
[02:42] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: somerville32 does have a lot of care about xubuntu stuff
[02:42] <Hobbsee> making him the channel contact.
[02:42] <PriceChild> ah
[02:42] <LjL> Then we may as well go back to being the #ubuntu contact and that's it :)
[02:42] <somerville32> Might as well, I guess.
[02:42] <Hobbsee> well, at least notifying of him of any major changes
[02:43] <PriceChild> I'm just not happy with him asking *me* personally rather than the four of us as a group. I'm not just going to go out on a limb and do soemthing like that,
[02:43] <LjL> somerville32: Well, it would be a waste to waste all this IRC Council creation, which involved CC meetings, and everything... but everything's possible.
[02:43] <Hobbsee> LjL: do you actually follow kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features, etc?
[02:43] <somerville32> LjL, I think the IRC Council has its place
[02:43] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, pardon?
[02:43] <Hobbsee> LjL: (and should you even be expected to?)
[02:43] <somerville32> I don't mind if the IRCCouncil is the contact for #xubuntu personally
[02:44] <somerville32> It doesn't change that it is an Xubuntu channel
[02:44] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: the channel contact for a distro/flavour should really be running the distro/flavour, so it has a good idea of what the current issues are, no?
[02:44] <PriceChild> Don't you mean the other way around?
[02:45] <LjL> Hobbsee, I am a Kubuntu user and a #kubuntu operator (not because of being an IRC Council member, just because I've been an operator for quite some time). I follow Kubuntu more closely than I follow Ubuntu. Anyway, that is hardly very relevant from my point of view. What is relevant is *the support questions that I see asked and answered on a channel*. I can judge that pretty well, without being in close contact with the developers.
[02:45]  * stdin notes that LjL is an active helper in -kde4 too
[02:46] <Hobbsee> LjL: i was menaing the council globally, not yourself.
[02:46] <LjL> I think I am arguably in a *better* position than the developers to know whether an additional channel is needed or not for something. We certainly (I think) didn't ask the Ubuntu (GNOME) developers when opening, and then closing, #ubuntu-effects, for instance.
[02:46] <Hobbsee> LjL: you would be welcome as a co-contact, if you wished.
[02:46] <Hobbsee> LjL: council != developers, per se
[02:46] <PriceChild> Why does someone need to be a contact of a channel according to chanserv to be able to read the channel and see current issues?
[02:46] <LjL> Hobbsee: That is why i said it was hardly relevant from my point of view.
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hwo many of the CC are developers?
[02:46] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: they don't.  it's just a notify list
[02:46] <PriceChild> a notify list?
[02:48] <LjL> Hobbsee, ok, I rectify that - I am, as an IRC person, in a better position than *anyone who is not an IRC person* to judge the *support requirements* of an IRC channel. You are an IRC person yourself, so this is not about #kubuntu-kde4 (which we disagree about, but disagreements happens), but in general... not closely following "kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu in terms of releases and new features" is, in my opinion, hardly detrimental to understanding the
[02:48] <LjL> needs of an IRC channel that one *does* follow.
[02:49] <LjL> (And following the channel in such a way, really, ends up meaning you *are* updated on releases and new features, anyway...)
[02:50] <LjL> (At least in so much detail as is needed for an IRC person to understand the channel's needs)
[02:50] <Hobbsee> LjL: your lack of knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy isn't helpful, though :(
[02:50] <Hobbsee> i think you guys were shown the meeting logs
[02:50] <nalioth> Hobbsee: my opinion was for the future, not the 'now'.
[02:51] <LjL> Hobbsee: That's possibly because it didn't seem very clear to the Kubuntu developers I talked to, themselves.
[02:51] <somerville32> I think that Hobbsee makes a good point. Furthermore, shouldn't the people actually working on the project/team be the contact for the channel?
[02:51] <PriceChild> somerville32, why?!
[02:51] <Hobbsee> LjL: it was in the meeting log, and was fairly clear there, i thought.
[02:51] <somerville32> Because if they're doing the work, they should be able to set the policy for _their_ channel, eh?
[02:51] <PriceChild> somerville32, I've nothing personal against you, I hardly know you etc. etc. - I just don't see what this change would aid.
[02:51] <Hobbsee> LjL: it was a unanimous decision about what would get released.
[02:52] <PriceChild> somerville32, and normal access doesn't allow this?
[02:52] <Hobbsee> somerville32: they may not want to do the day to day mangling of the namespace
[02:52] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Right so I image they're free to delegate
[02:52] <somerville32> I'm just saying they should have that option. It should ultimately be up to them, right?
[02:52] <LjL> Hobbsee, well, is my vision of it as I've showed it in this meeting very unaligned with what was actually decided?
[02:53] <Hobbsee> LjL: sorry, i've lost some context, i don't see what "it" is
[02:53] <LjL> Hobbsee: "knowledge about what kubuntu will actually release for hardy"
[02:54] <Hobbsee> LjL: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~jpatrick/minutes/
[02:54] <LjL> somerville32, are you somehow saying that the developers should be the ones providing IRC support?
[02:55] <Hobbsee> LjL: we're releasing a kde3 hardy, a kde4 hardy, of which both have various targets
[02:55] <Hobbsee> most people in the irc council appear to thin kthat we're not doing a kde3 hardy release at all
[02:55]  * PriceChild headdesks
[02:55] <Hobbsee> based on what i've read
[02:55] <Hobbsee> LjL: so, tbh, 'im not sure
[02:55] <lifeless> whosawhatsawhensa?
[02:55] <LjL> Hobbsee: You appear to read your mind if you say that... but you appear to read it wrong, because I know perfectly well that a KDE 3 release will happen.
[02:55] <Hobbsee> LjL: i was thinking of pricey and nalioth, in particualr
[02:56] <somerville32> LjL, No but the Xubuntu team should decide who is, right? :)
[02:56] <LjL> Hobbsee, nalioth hardly remembered the time of the meeting, or that there was a meeting at all. He doesn't count ;)
[02:56] <nalioth> Hobbsee: not at all,  did you actually read the backlogs in here?
[02:57] <Hobbsee> nalioth: yeah.  in with the rest of hte jumble.  i may not be remembering everything clearly
[02:57] <elkbuntu> somerville32, i believe we're talking about kubuntu at the moment
[02:57] <nalioth> Hobbsee: i rendered an opinion on the future.
[02:57]  * Hobbsee doesn't really see the point of continuing this, though
[02:57] <nalioth> Hobbsee: i said nothing about anything that LjL has brought up since you arrived
[02:57] <LjL> I think he is referring to <nalioth> i had a wild thought that while the kde3/4 were both 'officially supported and endorsed', making #kubuntu an "entryway" channel to -kde3 and -kde4
[02:58] <Hobbsee> LjL: i was thinking about that option.
[02:58] <nalioth> i _do_ keep up with what is going on
[02:58] <LjL> nalioth, I was only joking.
[02:58] <PriceChild> I guess we just haven't expressed ourselves very well then.
[02:59] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: +1
[02:59] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: in the general case, forward it, and sort it out by email.
[02:59] <Hobbsee> adn irc pings, etc.
[02:59] <PriceChild> pardon?
[02:59] <Hobbsee> er, forward the chanenl, and sort it out with the people involved via email
[03:00] <PriceChild> Still no idea what you're talking about?
[03:00] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: when someone clueful next sets up a channel that seems strange, forward it, and contact the relevant people via email / irc pings to their primary nicks / etc
[03:01] <PriceChild> That's what we did no?
[03:01] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: to their primary nicks?
[03:01] <Hobbsee> er, nick?
[03:01] <LjL> Hobbsee: Don't worry, next time something like this happen, you'll have even pagers that you don't have ringing :-P
[03:01] <elkbuntu> PriceChild, minus the communication i believe
[03:01] <Hobbsee> LjL: *grin*
[03:01] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: yes, the communication part is the part i'm emphasising
[03:03] <LjL> Hobbsee, however we meant no malice when, seeing how stdin, say, came and said "hey, people are joining #kubuntu-kde4, is that right? is it open yet?", we thought it should *not* yet be open in intentions, and forwarded it back.
[03:03] <Hobbsee> LjL: agreed.   i would have just preferred an email notification, or an irc message to my primary nick, saying "are you aware of this?"
[03:04] <Hobbsee> it's like the irc memos.  does anyone actually check them?
[03:04]  * PriceChild does
[03:04]  * somerville32 isn't important enough to get any
[03:04]  * Hobbsee does every once in a while, but they're not great for urgent communication
[03:04] <LjL> Hobbsee, I hardly check e-mail, for that matter... as I said, next time I'll employ all forms of communication that I can think of, just to be sure. Don't cry foul for excessive spam then, though :D
[03:05] <elkbuntu> somerville32, please dont be like that in here, it does nothing for your cause
[03:05] <Hobbsee> LjL: *grin*
[03:05] <Hobbsee> LjL: i get enough email as it is :)
[03:05]  * somerville32 raises an eyebrow at elkbuntu.
[03:05] <Hobbsee> LjL: but yes, multiple forms == more chance it gets thru.
[03:05] <Hobbsee> LjL: i'd prefer to be spammed than to be in the dark, indefinetly.
[03:05] <Hobbsee> if it's something important
[03:05]  * elkbuntu agrees with Hobbsee
[03:07] <nixternal> right as I was about to shutdown :)
[03:07] <nixternal> why is this "kubuntu-kde4" channel coming about?
[03:07] <nixternal> I tried to read the scroll back but it went everywhere
[03:07] <LjL> Hobbsee: Well, come on, you are on IRC daily, you were bound to see my PM in a day or two's time at most, and you did... I mean, sure, it probably was a pretty poor choice to contact you by sending a message to your "idle" nickname (but being the IRC type I am, e-mail hardly even crosses my mind), but "left in the dark"...
[03:08] <LjL> nixternal, the "why" wasn't discussed in this meeting, it was discussed in Kubuntu meetings
[03:08] <nixternal> I sure hope they didn't decide on a 2nd Kubuntu support channel
[03:09] <Hobbsee> nixternal: wasn't that the meeting decision?
[03:09] <elkbuntu> nixternal, no, a kde4 support channel
[03:09] <nixternal> that is #kde
[03:09] <nixternal> a Kubuntu KDE 3 or 4 support channel is #kubuntu
[03:10] <elkbuntu> nixternal, this isnt the meeting to be arguing that point at anyway, it was a kubuntu council decision, not ours
[03:10] <PriceChild> We're not going over this again... hobbsee and stdin say the kubuntu people made the decision... its done. They'll review it on hardy's release.
[03:11] <nixternal> jesus, why we are at it, why don't we just create a kubuntu-kde4 team too...stupid
[03:12]  * Hobbsee notes there already is a kubuntu-members-kde4 one atm.
[03:12] <Hobbsee> :)
[03:12] <stdin> heh, true
[03:12] <nalioth> nixternal: folks didn't join the meeting in time, and the scrollback isn't the best place to respond from
[03:12] <LjL> Hobbsee: sorry... QED. nixternal seems to be a Kubuntu Council member according to Launchpad.
[03:12] <nalioth> this meeting has never been about #kubuntu-kde4
[03:12] <PriceChild> LjL, oh you're joking?
[03:12] <LjL> So, really, I think my impression that Kubuntu people themselves weren't clear on the issue is pretty tenable.
[03:13] <elkbuntu> nixternal, take this up with the rest of the kubuntu people please
[03:13] <Hobbsee> LjL: it was not a unanimous decision, no.
[03:13] <Hobbsee> but fair enough, retake it up with the kubuntu people.
[03:14] <Hobbsee> various council members, and other people, expressed differing opinions
[03:15] <PriceChild> various council members weren't even aware of the final decision it seems
[03:15] <LjL> Hobbsee: Sure, that's not my business, just reinforces my opinion that 1) by closing the channel while its status was far from clear, we made the right decision, and 2) on IRC matters, the IRC council, as it deals with IRC issues daily, is probably a good guidance organism to consult if one so elects to.
[03:16] <PriceChild> We closed the channel for what.... 12 hours? In this period of confusion I don't think that was fatal. Things sort of got cleaned up and we've gotten there in the end.
[03:16]  * Hobbsee shrugs
[03:16]  * Hobbsee really doesn't care anymore.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> let nixternal deal with it, and all the support.
[03:17] <PriceChild> :/
[03:17] <nixternal> don't think so
[03:17] <Hobbsee> let him become the channel contact, so he gets to handle it when it all goes wrong.
[03:17] <somerville32> What was the cost of _not_ closing the channel?
[03:17] <PriceChild> somerville32, confusion of users that were joining it for support... when no-one else was there and better answers availiable in #kubunt.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> somerville32: people being given the wrong support answers, due to using the wrong version of kde than the supporter was expecting.
[03:18] <somerville32> And you're saying that, that would not have occurred if everyone stayed in #kubuntu?
[03:19] <Hobbsee> hm, then i read your question wrong.
[03:19] <Hobbsee> that would occur if people stayed in the same channel
[03:19] <Hobbsee> but, like i say, i really don't care anymore.  it's all nixternal's decision, or someone else from teh council's.
[03:19] <nixternal> that is true, considering most people on IRC can't ask a question properly in the first place
[03:19] <Hobbsee> nixternal: they tend to get fairly quickly taught that they'r ein the wrong place.
[03:20] <Hobbsee> or get disollusioned, as they didn't get an answer, as no one knew
[03:20] <LjL> somerville32: It would have. What would have *also* occurred, however, was that some people would have joined #kubuntu-kde4 (because they had already started to, somehow), while others would receive their KDE 4 support in #kubuntu, to only discover that they couldn't get it anymore the following day, being told to join #kubuntu-kde4... which however, forwarded back to #kubuntu, etc. You see, niceties like this is what a badly set up channel brings.
[03:36] <PriceChild> Right shall we call it there?
[03:41] <stdin> I think that's a "yes"
[03:42] <LjL> Yes...
[11:56]  * ogra waves ....
[11:56] <ogra> anybody here for the edubuntu meeting
[11:57] <ogra> (the fridge schedule is somehow gotten out of sync, actually it should have been the late meeting today)
[12:03] <stgraber> heya
[12:04] <RichEd> hi stgraber
[12:04] <RichEd> edubuntu meeting ... let's get started
[12:04] <RichEd> ogra: technical ?
[12:04] <ogra> still working on the ltsp move to the ubuntu CD
[12:05] <ogra> the general client building works fine now with a preseed value ....
[12:05] <ogra> but i have a slight problem with the ssh keys (i hope to solve today)
[12:06] <ogra> the ltsp interface isnt up at the point where i generate the keys in the installer, once i have solved this its done
[12:06] <ogra> i talked to cjwatson_about a menu entry, we'll likely have something in the Cd bootmenu at release time
[12:07] <cjwatson_> yeah, the delay is my fault, it's blocked on me sorting out more general CD bootloader issues
[12:07] <ogra> beyond that i'm working on the classmate image builder, which i hope to finish during the distro sprint next week
[12:07] <ogra> cjwatson, no problem
[12:07] <cjwatson> (regarding which unfortunately I have nobody to delegate to at the moment)
[12:08] <ogra> lets talk about it at the sprint
[12:08] <ogra> seems i'm turning into something like the -alternate maintainer here anyway since i test it regulary now
[12:10] <ogra> anyway, i hope we can get rid of the edubuntu-server CD next week as well, as soon as i know ltsp is fine
[12:10] <ogra> so alpha4 might be the big change in edubuntu CD design
[12:11] <ogra> thats all about tech so far
[12:11] <ogra> any questions ?
[12:11] <ogra> hey flint
[12:11] <flint> ogra, Good Morning!
[12:11] <RichEd> mr flint sir ... a rare honour to have you grace us with your esteemed presence
[12:12] <stgraber> hi flint
[12:12] <flint> RichEd, Nice touch, my dear friend...
[12:12] <flint> Greetings one and all...
[12:13] <ogra> oh, one thing, we have a community guy (johnny) who takes a bit care for sabayon ...
[12:13] <ogra> and LaserJock seems to have the menu stuff working properly for the first time :)
[12:14] <ogra> and for everyone who wonders where sbalneav went for the last 6 weeks, i was told he's fine yesterday and will show up again soon
[12:14] <RichEd> ogra: LaserJock mentioned that in the channel last week, but says he needs someone to do a neat GUI front end
[12:14] <RichEd> any ideas who could help ? or mentor ?
[12:16] <ogra> not really
[12:16] <ogra> and imho it should be integrated into the menu editor
[12:16] <ogra> not have a separate GUI
[12:17] <ogra> (which is indeed more work and cant happen for hardy)
[12:17] <ogra> feature freeze is on feb 14th
[12:17] <RichEd> who currently looks after the menu editor ... and is the menu editor edubuntu only or ubuntu general
[12:17] <ogra> ubuntu
[12:17] <ogra> it needs a hook to allow such additions first
[12:17] <ogra> then someone needs to write a plugin that uses this hook
[12:18] <ogra> i think thats beyond hardy
[12:18] <RichEd> and can LaserJocks work be used in any (manual edit) useful way for Hardy ?
[12:18] <ogra> well
[12:18] <ogra> yuo can ... but i wouldnt recommend that
[12:19] <RichEd> hi pips1
[12:19] <RichEd> ogra: okay
[12:20] <pips1> hi
[12:20] <stgraber> ogra: hmm, so, the FF being on 14th, it'd be a good idea to have my new italc uploaded next week or the week after, so we can work on the MIR ?
[12:20] <pips1> a happy new year to all
[12:20] <ogra> stgraber, yup
[12:20] <ogra> the next two weeks are the essential ones :)
[12:20] <RichEd> ogra: quick classmate 8.04 question ... if general *buntu hardy has a beta release date of March 20, do you expect we will have a beta classmate image around then ?
[12:21] <ogra> RichEd, not sure, but i would suspect so
[12:21] <RichEd> thanks ...
[12:21] <ogra> i didnt think about the milestones yet
[12:22] <ogra> in the end it will use the livefs builder to build the actual squashfs image
[12:22] <ogra> but the part after this that actually assembles the image in a usable state will be different from the currently used debian-cd scripts
[12:24] <ogra> that means we'll have daily built squashfs'es but i cant predict the second setps automation yet
[12:24] <flint> ogra,  is this a bad time to mention the eepro?
[12:24] <ogra> (teh squashfs built on beta day would then be the beta
[12:24] <ogra> )
[12:24] <flint> :^)
[12:24] <ogra> flint, i dont care about the triple e at all
[12:25] <ogra> it doesnt have the limitations the classmate has
[12:25] <flint> ogra, sorry, and I missed an e... :^)
[12:25] <ogra> apart from screen resolution its a fully fledged laptop
[12:25] <flint> ogra, I saw one and it was an illicit and forbidden love that bloomed...
[12:25] <ogra> so you can go with a normal install there
[12:25] <flint> :^)
[12:26] <ogra> classmate needs special treatment due to disk and ram limitations
[12:26] <flint> ogra, gotcha
[12:28] <ogra> anyway, anything else for tech ?
[12:29] <RichEd> ogra: should we introduce the artwork topic now ... for 8.10 ... is there anyone around as a result of the art team mail thread ?
[12:30] <ogra> RichEd, yup
[12:30] <ogra> anyone here from the art team ?
[12:30] <ogra> doesn seem like
[12:30] <ogra> sad
[12:31] <ogra> after the noise they made i'd have expected some enthusiasm ...
[12:31] <ogra> doesnt seem like
[12:32] <pips1> there was a call on the mailing list?
[12:32] <ogra> RichEd, go on then with community ...
[12:32]  * pips1 searches his archive
[12:32] <ogra> pips1, there was a discussion on the ubuntu-art list
[12:32] <pips1> ah
[12:32] <pips1> ic
[12:32] <RichEd> ogra: well let's button down the art requirements anyway ... then find the worker bodies :)
[12:32] <ogra> starting with "we need to change *everything*" edubuntu is not how we like it
[12:33] <RichEd> we still have JillC keen and able and willing
[12:33] <ogra> so i chimed in to get them here to discuss changes
[12:33] <RichEd> do you suggest anything else new apart from a new default desktop ?
[12:33] <ogra> only wallpaper, and if necessary color adjustments in gdm/usplash
[12:34] <RichEd> and do you or anyone else have any criteria / theme / colour palette requirements for overall guidance ?
[12:34] <ogra> color palette should match what we used before
[12:34] <ogra> it shouldnt break with the window frames and icons
[12:35] <RichEd> okay ... and does "hardy" have any imagery theme ?
[12:35] <ogra> and still look somewhat "ubuntuish"
[12:35] <RichEd> is the ubuntu default wallpaper buttoned down yet ?
[12:35] <ogra> i heard there was an update, but didnt manage to have a spare cycle to logout/in to see it yet
[12:35] <ogra> the wallpaper isnt though
[12:35] <RichEd> okay ... i'll ping kwii
[12:35] <ogra> but i heard the new colorscheme was out
[12:36] <RichEd> if you can let me know exactly what sizes we need up front ... i'll get jill to start in the right sizes and aspect ratios
[12:36] <ogra> sizes -> the same we always had
[12:36] <ogra> 1600x1200 for 4:3 and 1400x something for wide
[12:37] <ogra> i think 1400x900
[12:37] <RichEd> is the classmate aspect ratio the same as the 1400xsomething ?
[12:37]  * RichEd calculates quickly
[12:37] <ogra> yes
[12:39] <RichEd> that would make it 1400x840 = 800x480 scaled up
[12:42] <ogra> sigh
[12:42]  * ogra goes looking
[12:42] <RichEd> okay ... I'll get jill started ... just confirmed the final artwork deadline is March 13th
[12:42] <ogra> its 1280x800
[12:43] <RichEd> ogra shall I ask her to work towards Feb 14th as her 1st submission to us ... that is artwork deadline one on the schedule
[12:44] <ogra> to have *something* basic that would be great, yes
[12:44] <ogra> i think we can let it slightly slip as we always did
[12:44] <ogra> so she doesnt get to much under pressure
[12:45]  * RichEd smiles ... but 14 feb is a month away ... no harm in getting in line with the official schedule
[12:45] <RichEd> okay ... on to web sites ... highvoltage updated the www.ubuntu.org web site theme
[12:46] <RichEd> he said some minor tweaks are still needed ... but overall it looks quite good
[12:46] <pips1> big applause!
[12:46] <RichEd> we just need to update and add fresh content now so that it is more than just a new skin
[12:49]  * pips1 checks out the site
[12:49] <highvoltage> eek, edubuntu meeting
[12:49]  * highvoltage should make a script that hilights him at the beginning of the meeting
[12:49] <highvoltage> sorry for being late (again)
[12:49] <pips1> eek, the template breaks in a few places
[12:51] <highvoltage> pips1: please note all any breakages, so that we can fix it either ourselvesor let news2000 know about it
[12:51] <RichEd> highvoltage & pips1 : suggestions on how to formalise the testing and repairs / changes ?
[12:51] <pips1> there is a launchpad project set up already, isn't there?
[12:52] <ogra> highvoltage, make your script monitor ubotu and catch: "Current meeting: Edubuntu"
[12:52] <pips1> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~newz/fridge/fridge-theme-v2
[12:53] <highvoltage> ogra: cool, thanks for the tip
[12:53] <highvoltage> RichEd: yes, filing bugs on launchpad would be best, I think under the edubuntu website team
[12:54] <highvoltage> RichEd: I think all the improvements and ideas should be files there, so that we can keep better track of it
[12:54] <RichEd> highvoltage: for testing is it a matter of someone going through all links ... can we formalise any process to test & check off ?
[12:54] <RichEd> rather than waiting for "broken" reports which may or may not be filed
[12:55] <highvoltage> RichEd: ok, we can do that
[12:55] <pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/
[12:55] <pips1> erm
[12:55] <highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-website
[12:56] <pips1> rather:
[12:56] <pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website
[12:56] <pips1> oh dear
[12:57] <highvoltage> hmm, now that I think about it, we could probably generate a checklist that would be relevant to all the *buntu sites
[12:57] <highvoltage> there's the same "basics" that they all should have, and should be working
[12:57] <pips1> I see several supmitted bugs there that haven't been looked at...
[12:57] <pips1> *submitted
[12:58] <highvoltage> on the edubuntu page?
[12:58] <highvoltage> or are you still on the ubuntu one?
[12:58] <highvoltage> on https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-website/ it says "There are currently no open bugs."
[12:59] <pips1> hmm
[12:59] <pips1> well, I think the new bugs need to be  confirmed first before they appear in that overview listing
[12:59] <pips1> look at the new bugs on this page:
[12:59] <pips1> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bugs
[13:00] <flint> highvoltage,Go Jonathan!
[13:00] <pips1> anyway. I haven't been monitoring the bug tracker at all, I must admit
[13:00] <highvoltage> hey mr flint!
[13:01] <pips1> I'm not even subscribed to it...
[13:01] <highvoltage> flint: RichEd was asking about the various cookbook attempts, have you ever sent your version to him?
[13:02] <flint> highvoltage, I have, but it was a year ago.  I would need to heavily revise it.  Also I feel that your help file seems to cover the subject. don't you?
[13:02] <highvoltage> is edge.launchpad.net using the same database as launchpad.net?
[13:02] <flint> highvoltage, Oliver showed me this effort and I am most pleased with it.
[13:03] <highvoltage> flint: oh no, that help file is obsolete already
[13:03] <highvoltage> flint: ah, must be sbalneav's documentation
[13:03] <flint> highvoltage, hm let me revisit my look...
[13:03] <ogra> highvoltage, it is
[13:04] <ogra> highvoltage, the big prob we have that the online export still didnt happen
[13:04] <ogra> and we have pretty broken documentation out on the webpage
[13:04] <ogra> the shipped edubuntu handbook is fine though
[13:05] <highvoltage> ogra: should we remove all e all docs from the site and start with a clean slate? ie, sbalneav's work?
[13:05] <pips1> ogra: what do you mean by 'online export' ?
[13:05] <ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/
[13:05] <ogra> i see its gone now
[13:05] <flint> ogra, I like not having any pressure on my contributing, I will take some time and reopen that project.
[13:05] <pips1> indeed, it's gone!
[13:05] <ogra> pips1, hmm, no it isnt
[13:05] <ogra> if you go up to /edubuntu you cn click through
[13:06] <ogra> but its the proper export now \o/ yay
[13:06] <ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
[13:06] <ogra> there we go
[13:06] <ogra> :))))
[13:06] <pips1> ah, now the proper URL is http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
[13:06] <ogra> right
[13:07] <flint> pips1, this is a very sweet piece...
[13:07] <pips1> I'll fix that link on edubunt.org right away
[13:08] <highvoltage> pips1: great
[13:08] <ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ fixed
[13:08] <ogra> if the wiki ever finishes :/
[13:08] <flint> highvoltage, Thanks for the nudge, I have been thinking about that documentation set and how to do something neat with it.  Watch that space.
[13:10] <pips1> I have corrected the link to the edubuntu handbook
[13:12] <ogra> should we move on ?
[13:12] <ogra> (where is RichEd )
[13:16] <highvoltage> hmm, seems to have dissappeared
[13:16] <emgent> @now
[13:17] <highvoltage> our power supplier under high load, so there is load shedding in certain areas, maybe he is without electricity.
[13:17] <ogra> there he is :)
[13:18] <ogra> lots of him :)
[13:19] <ogra> RichEd, anything else from your side ?
[13:19] <RichEd> bah humbug ... ADSL daily reset took 15 mins
[13:20] <ogra> we just discovered that the online version of the edubuntu handbook is finally up to date
[13:20] <RichEd> excellent :)
[13:20] <ogra> beyond that you didnt miss anythin i think
[13:20] <ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/
[13:20] <RichEd> can we add that to the front web page & maybe the channel topic ?
[13:20] <RichEd> Community / Partnering:
[13:20] <RichEd> the educonlinux project web site is now up and available for those who may be interested
[13:21] <RichEd> this is the project largely driving the edubuntu content server requirement
[13:21] <RichEd> see here:
[13:21] <ogra> pips1 has fixed the edubuntu.org link, i fixed the FAQ
[13:21] <RichEd> http://www.educonlinux.eu/
[13:21] <ogra> (its a bit long for the channel topic though)
[13:21] <RichEd> moodle on top of edubuntu, with partners working on moodle to develop teaching lessons
[13:21] <ogra> RichEd, btw, i'd prefer to have the restricted area name based
[13:22] <RichEd> ogra ... it will be :) need to set up process for permissions etc.
[13:22] <RichEd> (next stage)
[13:22] <ogra> i.e. have restricted.educonlinux.org istead of www.educonlinux.org/whatever/
[13:22] <ogra> hiding the paths adds a tad security
[13:22] <RichEd> anyone who has any questions or interest can mail me directly ... if there is any juicy news as we move forwards I announce here
[13:23] <RichEd> --- that's all from me for today ---
[13:23] <ogra> everyone cheer for RichEd becoming php programmer btw :)
[13:23] <RichEd> ogra: i only uploaded the content and tweaked ... i used to do .asp and vb in a past life
[13:24] <RichEd> so same same but different as they say in thailand
[13:24] <ogra> tastes like chicken ?
[13:24] <ogra> :)
[13:25] <pips1> hehe
[13:25] <RichEd> opening to the floor ... anyone else with news / issues / questions
[13:25] <pips1> I've already fixed a couple of things on the edubuntu.org site and am in the process of attending those bug reports
[13:26] <pips1> however, how can I close bugs on Launchpad ? do I need a special status / role for the edubuntu-website "product"?
[13:26] <pips1> highvoltage: ?
[13:26] <ogra> you mark them fix released or invalid
[13:27] <highvoltage> sorry, back
[13:27] <pips1> highvoltage: can you grant me admin priviledges for the 'edubuntu website' product on Launchpad?
[13:27] <pips1> I want to close the bugs I fixed
[13:27] <highvoltage> pips1: you don't need special permaissions, you may close bugs
[13:27] <pips1> oh
[13:27] <ogra> pips1, note that you need to click on the status nowadays to edit, not on the package name anymore
[13:27] <pips1> ok
[13:28] <highvoltage> pips1: just give me a chance to go over them in a few mins, I know most of them can be marked as obsoleted
[13:31] <RichEd> shall we wrap up then ?
[13:31] <ogra> anything else ? or can we close ?
[13:31] <ogra> heh
[13:32] <pips1> last question: will there be an edubuntu summit before/after/during the next ubuntu developer summit
[13:32] <pips1> ?
[13:33] <ogra> they will likely happen together if tehre is an educational event
[13:33] <highvoltage> pips1: yes, will do
[13:33] <RichEd> pips1: we still need to discuss that internally ... i'll bring it up next time we chat to the management
[13:33] <RichEd> not sure if UDS is the best education forum for teachers etc.
[13:34] <pips1> on HardyReleaseSchedule I see the tentative date for UDS is May 22nd. Is that still so? Or any news about a change of date?
[13:34] <RichEd> may be better to keep UDs more tech & spec and have an edu summit more aligned to teachers and education needs, bringing in large deployment representatives ... like macedonia, guadalinex, georgia
[13:35] <RichEd> pips1: that date is the best info we have :)
[13:35] <pips1> right
[13:35] <highvoltage> pips1: hmm, you're already an admin
[13:35] <pips1> admin for what?
[13:35] <ogra> well, given that there is often overlap it would make sense to have an edu conf right attached to a UDS though
[13:35] <ogra> like two days inadvance or after the UDS
[13:36] <highvoltage> the edubuntu-website team.
[13:36] <ogra> but we'll hear from management i guess :)
[13:36] <pips1> perhaps we can continue to discuss the UES on #edubuntu and close the meeting...?
[13:36] <ogra> ++
[13:37] <ogra> going once
[13:37] <ogra> going twice
[13:37] <RichEd> pips1: okay
[13:37] <ogra> adjourned ....
[13:38]  * ogra goes for coffee
[13:38] <RichEd> thanks ogra pips1 highvoltage stgraber flint
[13:39] <highvoltage> yes, thanks, and sorry for split attention, furious multitasking here
[13:39] <pips1> heh
[13:39] <pips1> I don't really have time in the first place, but what the heck
[13:39] <pips1> :-/
[15:57] <heno> bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: meeting ping
[15:57] <ogasawara> heno: hi :)
[15:57] <pedro_> hello!
[15:58] <heno> hey folks!
[15:58] <bdmurray> here but it feels early
[15:58] <davmor2> LO
[15:58] <pedro_> hey liw
[15:58] <liw> hi
[15:59] <heno> #startmeeting
[15:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:59. The chair is heno.
[15:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <heno> agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[16:01] <heno> [TOPIC] QA Today: OpenOffice bug day and test automation development in #ubuntu-testing
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Today: OpenOffice bug day and test automation development in #ubuntu-testing
[16:01] <heno> again, mainly FYI
[16:01] <heno> any points needing discussion here?
[16:01] <davmor2> how goes the OO.o buggin'
[16:01] <stgraber> hello
[16:01] <bdmurray> pedro_: have you tried that gm script?
[16:01] <liw> heno, I could paste the urls for the record
[16:01] <stgraber> I'm currently at the station, will be home in 35min
[16:02] <heno> liw: please do
[16:02] <liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/DogtailTutorial https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Coverage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/ScriptingGuide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/LimitationsOfDogtail
[16:02] <liw> hmm... no, not like that
[16:02] <heno> stgraber: ok, see you :)
[16:02] <pedro_> bdmurray: not yet, I'm adding in the old way the tags by now
[16:02] <liw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
[16:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
[16:03] <liw> that's the main page, from which sub-pages are linked
[16:03] <bdmurray> I'm hurt
[16:04] <heno> bdmurray: as in blood on the keyboard?
[16:04] <bdmurray> heno: no as in my feelings ;)  I'll get over it though
[16:04] <heno> good news :)
[16:04] <heno> ok, moving on
[16:04] <heno> [TOPIC] Cleanup and presentation of qa-hardy-list
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Cleanup and presentation of qa-hardy-list
[16:05] <heno> A few bugs there are not triaged, in the new state and the LP listing is quite poor with lots of dupes
[16:06] <davmor2> where we on about sorry?
[16:06] <heno> I can go through and triage the lagging ones
[16:07] <heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
[16:07] <heno> ogasawara: would it be possible to create a listing like the kernel one for these?
[16:07] <ogasawara> heno: sure.  it'll just bit a bit long.
[16:08] <heno> It will be a bit more tidy when we present it to the dev teams
[16:08] <heno> your kernel list isn't sorted by anything right?
[16:08] <ogasawara> heno: nope
[16:08] <heno> what should we sort by, assignee?
[16:09] <heno> one nice feature of your listing is that the fixed bugs stay on the page (at the bottom)
[16:09] <heno> ogasawara: how much manual maintenance do you have with that page now?
[16:10] <ogasawara> heno: none other than copying over the new list each week
[16:10] <heno> I assume you have to move bugs to 'fixed' at some point
[16:10] <ogasawara> nope, they move to 'fixed' automatically
[16:10] <heno> but with some lag?
[16:11] <ogasawara> heno: I've got the cron job running every hour on rookery
[16:11] <heno> because there are some fixed bugs at the top of the list
[16:11] <ogasawara> ahh, that's on purpose
[16:11] <heno> right, it a good thing, I just wondered about the mechanics of it
[16:11] <ogasawara> I think they should be listed at the bottom also
[16:12] <heno> indeed they are, ok
[16:13] <heno> [AGREED] heno will re-triage the qa-hardy-list and ogasawara will set up a display page
[16:13] <MootBot> AGREED received:  heno will re-triage the qa-hardy-list and ogasawara will set up a display page
[16:13] <davmor2> it would be easier if they could just be listed by the level of fixedness :)
[16:13] <heno> ogasawara: let's take the implementation to email
[16:13] <davmor2> new at the top fixed at the bottom
[16:14] <heno> davmor2: the state, yeah that works too
[16:14] <ogasawara> I can put together a few prototypes and we can go from there
[16:14] <heno> btw, for ref http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/hardy-buglist.html is the kernel page we talked about above
[16:15] <heno> [TOPIC] Spec status https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
[16:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
[16:15] <davmor2> heno that does make it a lot simpler
[16:15] <ogasawara> developer weather report spec:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/weatherreport/
[16:16] <heno> shall we just go down the list?
[16:16] <heno> ogasawara: ooops [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'data/complete_data.txt'
[16:16] <ogasawara> heno: yah, it's a know issue, you have to hit refresh
[16:17] <heno> ok, looks good!
[16:17] <heno> but starting with https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/bug-statistics
[16:17] <ogasawara> heno: imbrandon and I believe it has to do with the ugle use of files to store the data right now
[16:18] <heno> we should discuss bug stats further in London
[16:18] <bdmurray> okay
[16:18] <heno> some good work has been done on this, but we may have to adjust the spec to fit that
[16:19] <heno> I'm thinking of the new graph types and display app
[16:20] <heno> I want to do some thinking about which metrics can help drive development in a good direction
[16:20] <heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/fixed-bug-verification
[16:21] <pedro_> are we using the test case for iso testing ?
[16:21] <pedro_> I haven't seen a single one where the iso-testing tag has been added
[16:21] <heno> status is 'not started' but some tagging work has been done
[16:21] <heno> have we seen any TEST CASE: blocks?
[16:22] <bdmurray> I wanted to review the iso-testing bugs so could take a look and add them where possible
[16:23] <heno> pedro_: would you say any of these bugs are suitable to test automation?
[16:23] <heno> we may soon have the ability to do that
[16:24] <pedro_> heno: yeah, I'd like to see the list first
[16:25] <heno> ok, lets review this in london
[16:25] <pedro_> ok cool
[16:25] <heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-automated-tests
[16:25] <heno> we touched on this earlier
[16:26] <heno> Roadmap is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Roadmap
[16:26] <heno> liw: is that still a realistic plan?
[16:27] <heno> we missed the Alpha 3 milestone by a bit (as expected) but I think we have made good progress since
[16:27] <liw> heno, I suspect not, since it's taking so long to get dogtail work well for us (given that we're abusing it in unintended ways :)
[16:28] <liw> heno, but things might go faster at the sprint, though, with greater availability and interpersonal bandwidth
[16:28] <heno> I've been playing with dogtail+ubuquity today, without much luck
[16:28] <davmor2> heno: I think a more realistic goal would be to just get as many useable scripts together first
[16:28] <heno> yeah, we need to get help from Evan and Luke on that
[16:29] <liw> I'm working on getting the gthumb and nautilus scripts working at all for me :( (l10n issues)
[16:29] <liw> but once I do, I expect to get a simple test runner written up quickly
[16:29] <pedro_> liw: i can send you them in Spanish ;-)
[16:29] <heno> davmor2: ubiquity is quite important WRT ISO testing though
[16:29] <liw> pedro_, I'm not sure that'll help in my fi_FI locale :)
[16:30] <liw> but I'll set up an emulated environment for running the scripts, with an English speaking locale, so that should fix things
[16:30] <heno> liw: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/package-level-tests <- shall we consider this complete for Hardy
[16:30] <heno> pending a DC server for it
[16:30] <liw> heno, once the stuff is running in the DC, yes
[16:31] <heno> ok
[16:31] <heno> and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/self-testing-desktop ? Shall we roll that over to Hardy+1?
[16:32] <liw> I suspect that is going to have to happen :(
[16:32] <davmor2> hell yes
[16:32] <heno> getting stuff into the distro will get more difficult closer to release
[16:32] <liw> yeah
[16:32] <heno> ok, I'll just do that today and we'll move on
[16:32] <davmor2> you'll be best off get that in as early as possible in the next release to be honest
[16:33] <heno> that brings us back to https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/developer-weather-report
[16:34] <heno> we'll want to display that on qa.u.c at some point
[16:34] <ogasawara> ok that should be simple enough
[16:34] <heno> that page will serve nicely for discussions in London though
[16:34] <ogasawara> yes, I'd like to get feedback at the sprint
[16:35] <heno> [I'm skipping the informational specs]
[16:36] <liw> ogasawara, incidentally, there's a proposal to make piuparts output stuff so that the Debian Package Tracking System, which is a bit similar to the weather report (but more geared to packages) could show piuparts results: http://wiki.debian.org/piuparts#head-a2e5fe9cd411e0ea1a8d56e351c70ff60a1e9c5d -- we could discuss something like that for Ubuntu as well
[16:36] <stgraber> re
[16:36] <heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-website
[16:36] <heno> stgraber: looking at spec status
[16:37] <heno> would you say that's implemented?
[16:37] <stgraber> no, we are stil missing some major parts
[16:37] <stgraber> LP integration will likely not be done for Hardy but I still have some changes to do for Hardy
[16:38] <stgraber> https://wiki.stgraber.org/UbuntuQA/QAWebsite/TODO
[16:38] <ogasawara> liw: sounds good, lets get together next week to iron out some details
[16:38] <stgraber> that's the current status of this spec
[16:38] <liw> ogasawara, ack
[16:38] <heno> ok, thanks.
[16:39] <stgraber> the security part is getting better and better, remaining bits are mainly UI stuff and backend (syncing blueprints)
[16:39] <stgraber> + the abillity to get the list of builds from cdimage that I'm still waiting on for some major rework of the download info page
[16:39] <heno> stgraber: should some things be moved on to a new spec for Hardy+1?
[16:40] <stgraber> yes, LP integration and XML-RPC should be moved for Hardy+1
[16:40] <stgraber> so should the QA-Feedback spec
[16:41] <heno> ok, let's do that
[16:41] <heno> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-website-tokamak implemented?
[16:41] <heno> we just haven't put it to proper use yet
[16:42] <stgraber> You should ask nand about this one, I don't think it's been entirely implemented, we still have some minor remaining bits (let me have a look at his todolist)
[16:42] <stgraber> https://wiki.stgraber.org/UbuntuQA/QAPoll/TODO
[16:43] <stgraber> so mainly UI stuff for him as well
[16:43] <heno> there may be a few missing details, but on the whole it's up and running
[16:43] <heno> and looking very good :)
[16:43] <stgraber> QA-Website and QA-Poll will soon be implemented, QA-Tracker is mainly stuck on this .manifest file on cdimage
[16:44] <heno> yeah, I'll grab the release team about that next week
[16:44] <stgraber> the remaining bits are admin UIs for things like adding a website, products, testcases, menu links, ...
[16:44] <heno> that's it for specs
[16:45] <heno> [TOPIC] http://qa.ubuntu.com frontpage, what do you want on it ?
[16:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com frontpage, what do you want on it ?
[16:45] <bdmurray> bugs with more than 5 subscribers is missing
[16:45] <stgraber> ok, so we currently have a basic website listing + some links
[16:45] <bdmurray> in the Useful area
[16:46] <heno> we should probably remove the not-yet active features
[16:46] <stgraber> I would like to have an improved web page, showing some stats, ...
[16:46] <liw> that's where the weather report is going to be, is it?
[16:47] <heno> I guess http://server.qa.ubuntu.com/ is not in use ATM for example
[16:47] <stgraber> liw: "be" maybe not, but "shown" possibly, looks like the good place for it at least
[16:47] <stgraber> heno: well, they requested it and I have created it, now it's up to them to send me a list of product and testcases so they can start using it ...
[16:47] <liw> depending on the size of the weather report, it might perhaps make sense to have a mini-report on qa.ubuntu.com with a link to the full page
[16:48] <heno> liw: I think we should pull the full page into qa.u.c
[16:49] <heno> you should be able to drill down to details from a simple summary page
[16:50] <stgraber> I'm thinking of some kind of block layout, with one part for the bugs (links to the different bug stats), another with the weather report, another with some wiki links (bug day, Ubuntu bugcontrol team, ...)
[16:50] <heno> stgraber: how do we submit layout ideas, in HTML? or shall we mock it up in a wiki page to play with possibilities?
[16:50] <stgraber> well having something useful as it's supposed to be our main page
[16:51] <stgraber> html may be better as you can play with the layout
[16:51] <heno> we could make use of the left hand menu space too
[16:51] <stgraber> we can also create a wiki page containing the list of wanted items and attached the mockups
[16:51] <heno> ok, so contributions are welcome :)
[16:52] <heno> a wiki page allows for comments too; let's do that
[16:52] <heno> any other topics for the meeting?
[16:53] <stgraber> not from me
[16:53] <heno> seem not
[16:53] <heno> #endmeeting
[16:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:53.
[16:53] <liw> less than an hour, yay
[16:53] <heno> thanks everyone!
[16:53] <bdmurray> Could we add some bug guidelines to iso.qa.ubuntu.com?
[16:54] <stgraber> the website will be updated with the string fixes from bdmurray + some minor changes (as soon as Ng or another sysadmin does the code sync)
[16:54] <bdmurray> Like near the Bug ID at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/1227/22
[16:54] <heno> bdmurray: beyond the ISO release testing procedures and reporting at the top?
[16:54] <heno> OIC
[16:55] <bdmurray> heno: Oh, I don't see the "notice message" being an admin(?)
[16:55] <stgraber> bdmurray: it's only displayed on the main page of the tracker
[16:55] <heno> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[16:55] <stgraber> Currently it's : "ISO release testing procedures and reporting."
[16:56] <bdmurray> So maybe a reminder when entering bug IDs would be helpful
[16:56] <bdmurray> Did you do a b c?
[16:57] <heno> bdmurray: help of reporting bugs or adding the # to the tracker?
[16:58] <bdmurray> heno: reporting bugs like FindRightPackage and writing up a test case
[16:58] <heno> ok
[17:00] <bdmurray> Looking at the iso testing bugs I saw one without a package and none with a test case like in the fixed-bug-verification spec
[17:02] <stgraber> we can add some more links in the notice message or I can add a text message next to the bug entry form though this will take some time as it requires a DB change (so it would be done in the next major update, likely when QA-Poll is released)
[17:04] <bdmurray> I think having both might be best, the notice would point to BugReportingGuidelines (or something) then the entry form would just have some simple reminders "Did you add a test case?"
[17:06] <stgraber> well, if we don't need this text to be set by the admin (so not iso specific) I can add it in the next update (as then not requiring any DB change)
[17:07] <bdmurray> I don't see it being iso specific
[19:19] <jjesse_> @time Detroit
[19:19] <ubotu> Current time in America/Detroit: January 16 2008, 14:19:04 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 18 hours 40 minutes
[19:26] <zul> @time montreal
[19:26] <ubotu> Current time in America/Montreal: January 16 2008, 14:26:25 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 18 hours 33 minutes
[20:59] <mathiaz> Hi all :)
[20:59] <juliux> hi mathiaz
[20:59] <sommer> hello
[21:00] <ScottK> Hello.
[21:00]  * nealmcb waves
[21:00] <juliux> @now
[21:00] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 21:00:45 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 16 hours 59 minutes
[21:01] <somerville32> :)
[21:01] <zul> afternoon
[21:01] <ajmitch> hi
[21:01] <mathiaz> so dendrobates is not around - let's get started with this new schedule
[21:01] <mathiaz> ajmitch: hey ! you're around..
[21:01] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[21:01] <nealmcb> ajmitch: howdy!
[21:01] <ajmitch> mathiaz: sort of, yes
[21:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[21:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 21:01. The chair is mathiaz.
[21:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:02] <ajmitch> it being 10AM here, I can actually be online
[21:02] <mathiaz> the agenda is small
[21:02] <ScottK> We'll have to move the meeting then.
[21:02] <zul> heh
[21:02] <mathiaz> but I've updated the developper section in the Roadmap whith things we're working on
[21:03] <mathiaz> so I suspect we might have a long status report
[21:03] <ScottK> mathiaz: Who goes first?
[21:03] <mathiaz> ScottK: you're agenda item should be reviewed in the developer section
[21:03] <ScottK> OK.
[21:04] <ScottK> Let me know when.
[21:04] <mathiaz> ScottK: so let's start with the previous action review and then we'll move on with the MIR right after
[21:04] <ScottK> OK
[21:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:04] <mathiaz> Last meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080108
[21:05] <mathiaz> bug 153996 has been published to -updates
[21:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153996
[21:06] <mathiaz> sommer: did you get in touch with the apache debian maintainer wrt default ssl configuration ?
[21:06] <nealmcb> mathiaz: glad to see that bug resolved - thanks!
[21:06] <sommer> mathiaz: I beleive so I posted a debdiff to debian bug: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
[21:06] <ubotu> Debian bug 267477 in apache2 "ssl: some easy way to set up an ssl server (as apache-ssl package in apache 1)" [Important,Open]
[21:07] <sommer> it's an old one, but it should have gone to the debian apache list
[21:07] <sommer> haven't heard anything back though :(
[21:07] <mathiaz> sommer: ok.
[21:07] <sommer> was that the correct procedure or should I email one of them direct?
[21:07] <mathiaz> sommer: it may take some time.
[21:08] <mathiaz> sommer: I think that one of the maintainer started to work on this. It may take a while.
[21:08] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, I'm not in any rush, just posted the patch to learn some packaging
[21:08] <mathiaz> sommer: I think you've followed the correct procedure.
[21:09] <sommer> that and documenting apache and SSL could change if the patch is accepted
[21:09] <mathiaz> sommer: correct.
[21:10] <sommer> anyway that action item is done, as far as possible
[21:10] <mathiaz> sommer: great ! Thanks.
[21:10] <sommer> np
[21:11] <mathiaz> sommer: what about JeOS and the server guide ?
[21:11] <sommer> committed to as a section in the guide
[21:11] <mathiaz> sommer: cool :)
[21:12] <sommer> one thing to note is that when Hardy is released, depending on the publisher the article may need to be removed like the wiki article
[21:12] <mathiaz> so it seems that all the actions from last meeting have been done
[21:12] <somerville32> \o/
[21:12] <nealmcb> we talked about ebox also
[21:13] <mathiaz> sommer: I thought that the article would be used as a base for documenting JeOS.
[21:13] <sommer> mathiaz: yep, but nijaba mentioned that the publisher didn't want the wiki article up while it was on their site as well
[21:13] <mathiaz> nealmcb: yes. I haven't heard anything about upstream.
[21:13] <mathiaz> soren: ^^ ?
[21:14] <sommer> so I thought I'd mention about the web site
[21:14] <sommer> probably not a big deal, though
[21:14] <soren> Sorry, I got distracted.
[21:14] <mathiaz> sommer: hum... I wouldn't put a link to the website article in the documentation.
[21:14] <mathiaz> sommer: may be you should discuss this with the documentation team.
[21:14] <soren> mathiaz: About the article? AFAIK, the publisher hasn't published the article yet.
[21:15] <mathiaz> soren: ebox
[21:15] <soren> ebox, right.
[21:15] <soren> I tried (today) to get a hold of the project manager to see if he could stop by this meeting, but I didn't catch him. Sorry.
[21:15] <mathiaz> nealmcb asked about an update on the ebox front last week
[21:15] <jjesse_> sorry haven't been paying attention to the mtg :(
[21:15] <soren> I'll send him an e-mail after this meeting asking for a status. I'll CC the mailing list.
[21:16] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:16] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will email the ebox project manager to get an update about ebox.
[21:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will email the ebox project manager to get an update about ebox.
[21:16] <nealmcb> I think getting them to come to a meeting would be even better than an update
[21:16] <mathiaz> jjesse_: any comments on the JeOS tutorial integration with the server guide ?
[21:16]  * soren kicks himself for not following up on it
[21:17] <soren> nealmcb: I'll ask for both.
[21:17] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:18] <mathiaz> sommer: I'm not sure that the JeOS tutorial could be used as a base for the server guide chapter
[21:18] <mathiaz> sommer: If there are some issues with the publisher.
[21:18] <jjesse_> mathiaz: i would agree with that
[21:18] <sommer> mathiaz: okay, I'm trying to find the log
[21:18] <jjesse_> silly question is the JeOS and server guide licensed under the same?
[21:18] <sommer> mathiaz: should I remove it from the repo then?
[21:18] <sommer> jjesse_: yep
[21:19] <mathiaz> sommer: which license is it ?
[21:19] <jjesse_> CC-BY-SA for a ubuntu docs
[21:19] <sommer> mathiaz: from what I remember the issue was the wiki article, may be published and while it's published they didn't want the wiki article up
[21:19] <jjesse_> all ubuntu-docs
[21:19] <sommer> mathiaz: whatever the wiki is licensed under I assume
[21:20] <sommer> once the article is off their site it is going to be replaced in the wiki
[21:20] <mathiaz> considering that nijaba wrote the article, he is the best person to ask about htis
[21:20] <sommer> if that makes sense
[21:20] <nealmcb> sommer: doing that as a courtesy on the wiki is one thing.  but I'm thinking the server guide is a bigger deal, don't want to withdraw it there.  hopefully the timing won't overlap as mch
[21:21] <mathiaz> sommer: could you figure out this issue with nijaba ?
[21:21] <sommer> nealmcb: sure, and right now there isn't an issue because it's not on the we anywhere
[21:21] <sommer> mathiaz: sure
[21:21] <mathiaz> sommer: great thanks :)
[21:21] <sommer> I just wanted to give a heads up that if the article is in the server guide eventually it will be on the site
[21:21] <jjesse_> sommer: let me know if i can help on that
[21:22] <sommer> jjesse_: sure will do
[21:22] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will discuss with nijaba whether the JeOS tutorial can be included in the server guide wrt to the publisher requirements.
[21:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will discuss with nijaba whether the JeOS tutorial can be included in the server guide wrt to the publisher requirements.
[21:23] <mathiaz> Anything else related to last meeting ?
[21:23]  * sommer thinks thats it
[21:25] <mathiaz> allright then - let's move on
[21:25] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[21:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[21:26] <ajmitch> and a nice big roadmap it is
[21:26] <mathiaz> Let's start with the developer section as I've updated it with a list of current project we're working on.
[21:26] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-1102ad06b7ddea90507e5e0bee07d48a27278f74
[21:26] <mathiaz> Let's start with the MIR process, as ScottK put it up on the agenda
[21:26] <ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
[21:27] <ScottK> Is where the list is.
[21:27] <ScottK> We've ~1 month to feature freeze, so if stuff is going to get in, people need to get cracking.
[21:27] <ScottK> There was a lot of discussion for this at UDS, but not very many people have worked on it since.
[21:28] <mathiaz> Fabio started to work on some MIRs.
[21:28] <ScottK> Additionally, I think one developer ought not reject packages that the group thought were good at UDS.
[21:28] <ScottK> Yes.
[21:28] <ScottK> And I don't think he should unilterally mark some rejected.
[21:28] <mathiaz> ScottK: do you have example of such rejection ?
[21:28] <ScottK> mathiaz: See the wiki page ^^^
[21:29] <nealmcb> There has been a lot of calendar discussion recently, e.g. Darwin Calendar Server.  Not yet packaged at all, so I guess that would be the first goal, but what is the calendar server story for main?
[21:29] <soren> nealmcb: There is none.
[21:29] <mathiaz> ScottK: yes.
[21:29] <mathiaz> ScottK: Well - I think the rejection came from the MIR writting process.
[21:29] <zul> wasnt there an announcement of open-xchange for ubuntu a week ago or something?
[21:30] <ScottK> Was if Fabio that rejected them or ubuntu-mir?
[21:30] <mathiaz> ScottK: There are critirias that are used to include package in main.
[21:30] <ScottK> If it was ubuntu-mir, then I'm totally fine with it.
[21:30] <mathiaz> ScottK: I think it was Fabio.
[21:30] <mathiaz> ScottK: OTOH Fabio knows the environement very well.
[21:30] <ScottK> It may be that someone felt strongly enough about some of these to pick up upstream maintenance.  I don't know.
[21:31] <ScottK> Yes, but we decided what went on the list as a team and ought to do the same with them coming off.
[21:31] <mathiaz> ScottK: So I'd trust him when he states rejected.
[21:31] <mathiaz> ScottK: yes. I see your point.
[21:31] <ScottK> mathiaz: OK.  My only knowlege of him is when he uploaded an unpatched openssl097 to partner, so I may not have a fair view of him.
[21:31] <mathiaz> ScottK: so - what about sending an email to ubuntu-server to discuss the rejection
[21:32] <ScottK> mathiaz: I think Fabio should do that.
[21:32] <mathiaz> ScottK: He's been involved with Ubuntu since the very begining of the project.
[21:32] <nxvl_work> fine, i did't miss all the meeting :D
[21:32] <zul> ScottK: having worked with fabio alot I truse his judgement but yeah some discussion is probably needed
[21:32] <ScottK> Then he shouldn't have any problem discussing this in a community forum.
[21:33] <mathiaz> ScottK: yop. I'll ping him.
[21:33] <nxvl_work> what are we talking about?
[21:33] <ScottK> Great.
[21:33] <ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
[21:33] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will talk to fabio about rejecting package from the MIR list.
[21:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will talk to fabio about rejecting package from the MIR list.
[21:34] <ScottK> I will just mention that I ended up having the split amavisd-new.
[21:34] <ScottK> I think that eventually we need to bring libmilter into Main so that we can have supported milters with Postfix, but it ought to be spec'ed.  I plan to propose if for Hardy+1
[21:34] <ScottK> That's all I had.
[21:34] <nealmcb> any thoughts on calendar options?
[21:35] <sommer> can anyone do MIRs or do you need to be a MOTU?
[21:35] <mathiaz> ScottK: great - thanks for your work on amavis
[21:35] <ScottK> sommer: Anyone.
[21:35] <mathiaz> sommer: anyone can do it.
[21:35] <sommer> cool, just wanted to make sure
[21:35]  * ScottK wants some kind of gold star award for the 8 MIRs I had to do for depends.
[21:35] <mathiaz> nealmcb: well - it seems there are multiple option. But it may too late to have something for Hardy
[21:36]  * sommer High Fives ScottK
[21:36] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CalendarServer
[21:36] <mathiaz> nealmcb: feature freeze is one month.
[21:36]  * nxvl_work gives ScottK a Gold Star sticker and put it in his head
[21:36] <nxvl_work> :P
[21:36] <ScottK> Thanks.
[21:36] <ScottK> Not to mention getting infinity to fix an sbuild bug so one of them would build too....
[21:37] <nealmcb> mathiaz: yeah - I would put ebox much higher in the priority queue - but hoping someone with calendar passion wanders along
[21:37] <mathiaz> nealmcb: that looks like an How-To
[21:37] <ScottK> We can move on, I'm finished griping.
[21:37] <nealmcb> mathiaz: right - I was told there was a request-to-package bug but it hasn't been added I think
[21:37] <nealmcb> ScottK: :-)
[21:38] <mathiaz> soren: can you give us a quick update about your work on virtualization on the host side ?
[21:38] <soren> mathiaz: Er.. I'll blog about it later this evening or tomorrow morning. I can send it to the list as well, but I'm really not that keen on explaining everything twice, if that's ok with everyone?
[21:39] <soren> Short version: It rocks.
[21:39] <nxvl_work> +1 for me
[21:39] <mathiaz> soren: WFM. Could you copy ubuntu-server ?
[21:39] <zul> btw if anyone cares I have Xen mostly working on hardy
[21:39] <soren> mathiaz: That was the "send it to the list as well" bit :)
[21:40]  * nealmcb cheers for zul
[21:40] <ajmitch> zul: good
[21:40] <soren> zul: Coolness.
[21:40] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will blog and post a mail to ubuntu-server about the current status of virtualization in Hardy
[21:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will blog and post a mail to ubuntu-server about the current status of virtualization in Hardy
[21:41] <mathiaz> zul: what's the state of Xen ?
[21:41] <zul> mathiaz: its mostly packaged and sitting in new i have to push out a kernel
[21:42] <mathiaz> zul: are you tracking this in a wiki page somewhere ?
[21:42] <zul> mathiaz: no but I could do that
[21:42] <nxvl_work> zul: it will be better so anyone can help you
[21:42] <mathiaz> zul: It could be usefull to put something on the Roadmap about this
[21:42] <soren> zul: Will it be part of the kernel builds or will you have a separate source package that depends on linux-source-* and so on?
[21:42] <nxvl_work> zul: so the ones who are interested on it, can easy know the state of it
[21:43] <zul> soren: it will be apart of the kernel-builds
[21:43] <zul> mathiaz: not a problem
[21:43] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will an item to the Roadmap about Xen integration in Hardy
[21:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will an item to the Roadmap about Xen integration in Hardy
[21:43] <soren> zul: A'ight.
[21:43] <nealmcb> zul similar to the fedora approach?  are they just doing paravirt?
[21:44] <zul> nealmcb: no it was taken for suse the fedora approach is in a state of floax right now
[21:45] <nealmcb> taken from suse?
[21:45] <zul> nealmcb: dom0 is the suse patches for 2.6.24
[21:45] <nealmcb> got it
[21:47] <mathiaz> soren: any news about JeOS ?
[21:47]  * nealmcb hates to see the ongoing churn in multiple ways of doing virtualization in the kernel
[21:47] <mathiaz> soren: or will your blog post include an update about this also ?
[21:47] <soren> mathiaz: Nothing that won't be in the aforementioned blog post.
[21:47] <mathiaz> soren: kwel
[21:48] <sommer> soren: are you on ubuntu planet?
[21:48] <mathiaz> soren: what about LTS upgrades testing ?
[21:48] <soren> mathiaz: Now that my virtualisation stuff is rocking, I'll begin testing all of that. So far, I've only fixed the things when I've stumbled upon them. I haven't been doing anything systematic about it yet.
[21:49] <soren> I know that mvo is doing a lot of that as well, so I'll coordinate with him next week, I guess.
[21:49] <mathiaz> soren: Yeah - he is doing a lot with this.
[21:49]  * sommer volenteers to help with that if needed
[21:49] <sommer> help testing that is
[21:49] <mathiaz> soren: IIRC the task is about tracking the state testing, rather than doing everything.
[21:50] <mathiaz> soren: this is one way to get involved in the server team.
[21:51] <soren> mathiaz: Well, that's true.
[21:51] <mathiaz> soren: any ideas about organizing this ?
[21:51] <soren> mathiaz: I'll devise a plan and try to make it easy to split up so that more people can help.
[21:52]  * nxvl_work volenteers to help testing
[21:52] <mathiaz> soren: great.
[21:52] <soren> mathiaz: I'm thinking wiki pages with list of packages and a list of issues that can arise (bad config upgrades, files moving from package to package without appropriate c/r/p's, etc.)
[21:52] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will devise a plan for tracking upgrades testing.
[21:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will devise a plan for tracking upgrades testing.
[21:53]  * soren looks at his growing todo list and sobs
[21:53] <soren> Oh, well. Sleep is for the weak.
[21:53] <mathiaz> soren: yeah. I think that spliting by package is a good thing.
[21:53] <mathiaz> soren: Documenting how to setup a upgrade testing environement would also help
[21:54] <ajmitch> soren: 'delegate'
[21:54] <nxvl_work> soren: i read there are researches on the development of a pill which substitutes de sleep time
[21:54] <soren> ajmitch: That was the word I was looking for :)
[21:54] <ajmitch> soren: minions? :)
[21:54]  * nealmcb lol
[21:54] <soren> nxvl_work: I heard about a guy in Thailand who hasn't slept for 32 years. He's my hero.
[21:54] <nxvl_work> give more caffeine i can sleep when i'm dead
[21:54] <soren> nxvl_work: He tried pills and alcohol, but the closest he's gotten to sleep is light drowsiness.
[21:54] <soren> I so need to learn that.
[21:55] <mathiaz> jdstrand: how is the ubuntu firewall going ?
[21:55] <jdstrand> pretty well
[21:55] <somerville32> soren, I wonder if it is genetic
[21:55] <jdstrand> I updated the wiki today with its status and what's implemented
[21:56] <jdstrand> I also uploaded to archive today
[21:56] <soren> jdstrand: I heard rumours something has been uploaded
[21:56] <nxvl_work> jdstrand: can you pass the link please
[21:56] <soren> jdstrand: Ooh, shiny.
[21:56] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
[21:56] <jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
[21:56] <nxvl_work> thanks
[21:56] <mathiaz> jdstrand: is there some documentation ?
[21:56] <jdstrand> but there was a bug for mostly allow type firewalls that will be fixed in the next upload
[21:57] <jdstrand> mathiaz: there is an excellent manpage as well as the README
[21:57]  * ajmitch sees a couple of roadmap items still unassigned
[21:57] <soren> ajmitch: Yeah. We've saved them for you.
[21:57] <soren> ajmitch: Get to work.
[21:57] <soren> :p
[21:57] <ajmitch> yay
[21:57]  * soren hugs ajmitch 
[21:57]  * ajmitch looks for those pills & alcohol
[21:58] <soren> You need to put them in reverse, though.
[21:58] <soren> Hey, there's a thought.
[21:58] <mathiaz> jdstrand: it seems that it's ready for more widespread usage
[21:58] <mathiaz> jdstrand: or testing
[21:58] <nealmcb> jdstrand: is this a new firewall tool?
[21:58] <jdstrand> yes-- that was why I uploaded it
[21:58] <jdstrand> nealmcb: yes.  it came up at UDS to have a host-based firewall tool
[21:59] <jdstrand> it is not disimiliar to what redhat offers at this point
[21:59] <mathiaz> jdstrand: what's your plan for more widespread testing ?
[21:59] <jdstrand> however, it is the foundation for future improvements like package integration and more advanced firewalling
[21:59] <jdstrand> it will probably integrate with shorewall
[21:59] <jdstrand> this is all post hardy
[22:00] <jdstrand> mathiaz: I wanted to get that fixed package uploaded (which I have to wait for someone to get it into universe)
[22:00] <jdstrand> then send an email to ubuntu-devel announcing it
[22:00] <mathiaz> jdstrand: you should cc ubuntu-server
[22:01] <jdstrand> ok
[22:01] <sommer> I can help test and document, firewall section needs updated anyway
[22:01] <mathiaz> jdstrand: also make sure that it will be mentioned in the release notes of the next alpha.
[22:01] <mathiaz> jdstrand: even if it's still in universe.
[22:01] <astabeno> sommer:I can help with that
[22:02] <mathiaz> [ACTION jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
[22:02] <jdstrand> mathiaz: should I mention it even though it will be in universe first?  or should I be working on the MIR in parallel?
[22:02] <sommer> astabeno: very cool
[22:02] <jdstrand> thanks sommer
[22:02] <soren> mathiaz: You  missed the trailing ']'..
[22:02] <mathiaz> [ACTION] astabeno and sommer will take a look at ubuntu firewall while updating the firewall section of the server guide.
[22:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  astabeno and sommer will take a look at ubuntu firewall while updating the firewall section of the server guide.
[22:03] <mathiaz> [ACTION] jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
[22:03] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand will send an email about ubuntu-firewall on ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server
[22:03] <mathiaz> soren: thanks :)
[22:03] <nxvl_work> i will test the ufw
[22:03] <nxvl_work> and try to help on developing
[22:03] <mathiaz> jdstrand: I wouldn't start on the MIR yet.
[22:04] <jdstrand> mathiaz: I figured-- I just wasn't sure about the Alpha part and not being in main, but that's cool
[22:04] <mathiaz> jdstrand: I'd first get some testing done. Depending on how tings work, you could write a MIR a week before FeatureFreeze.
[22:04] <ajmitch> that could be cutting it close
[22:04] <nxvl_work> jdstrand: did i need to send you the patches by mail=
[22:04] <mathiaz> jdstrand: I think the idea is to make some noise about it.
[22:05] <ajmitch> unless you know the right people :)
[22:05] <nealmcb> jdstrand: so it is actually called ufw, not ubuntu-firewall, right?  the latter is the spec?
[22:05] <mathiaz> nxvl_work: patches by mail is an option. The code is maintained in a bzr branch on LP.
[22:05] <jdstrand> nxvl_work: it is bzr
[22:05] <mathiaz> nxvl_work: so you could also branch on LP and submit it to jdstrand
[22:06] <jdstrand> nealmcb: correct-- for Uncomplicated Firewall
[22:06] <nealmcb> :-)
[22:06] <nealmcb> the holy grail!!
[22:06] <nxvl_work> jdstrand: but i can't upload them
[22:06] <mathiaz> jdstrand:  is this name already taken by a project ?
[22:06] <jdstrand> nealmcb: we'll see
[22:06] <nxvl_work> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jamie-strandboge/ufw/trunk
[22:06] <jdstrand> mathiaz: none I could find
[22:06] <nxvl_work> oh, on my own LP branch you mean, right
[22:06] <emgent> @now
[22:06] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 16 2008, 22:06:59 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 15 hours 53 minutes
[22:07]  * nealmcb is worried about yet more firewalls, but agrees that something that ties into package metadata can be helpful
[22:07] <jdstrand> nealmcb: I agree, and they are mostly too hard for the average user
[22:08] <jdstrand> nealmcb: the goal is to have clear documentation and easy commands to do stuff, but still allow for admins to tweak to their hearts content
[22:08] <mathiaz> keescook: how is security going in Hardy ?
[22:10] <ajmitch> so secure he can't hear you?
[22:11] <nealmcb> jdstrand: hopefully the united farm workers won't think this conflicts with their picket-line technology
[22:11] <ajmitch> from what he blogged, there was certainly some good progress
[22:11] <jdstrand> mathiaz: was there a particular feature?
[22:11] <mathiaz> jdstrand: nope. Just to give an update about this things we've discussed at UDS.
[22:12] <jdstrand> well I know he got alot of the kernel stuff in
[22:12] <mathiaz> The list is on the Roadmap and it looks good.
[22:12] <ajmitch> he just posted an update about ASLR yesterday (http://www.outflux.net/blog/archives/2008/01/15/full-aslr-in-hardy/)
[22:12] <mathiaz> jdstrand: there is one item assigned to you
[22:13] <jdstrand> ah yes
[22:13] <mathiaz> jdstrand: tool to set password strength in auth-client-config
[22:13] <jdstrand> haven't done it yet, but not hard to do
[22:13] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ok.
[22:13] <mathiaz> As for the apparmor integration, the next kernel upload should be fully working by default
[22:14] <mathiaz> for now, you need to use an argument on the command line so that apparmor actually works.
[22:15] <soren> Clever :)
[22:16] <mathiaz> soren: did you have a look at iscsi ?
[22:16] <soren> mathiaz: I did. I'm hoping to get a good deal of coding done on it next week at the sprint. I've got a pretty good idea about what needs doing, now I just need to do it.
[22:17] <mathiaz> soren: does it involve a lot of coding ?
[22:17] <nealmcb> sprint?
[22:17] <soren> mathiaz: The installer stuff does.
[22:17] <mathiaz> soren: I thought the packages were in good shape.
[22:17] <mathiaz> soren: ah yes.
[22:17] <soren> mathiaz: WEll, for reasonable values of "a lot".
[22:17] <ajmitch> nealmcb: I believe it's the developers sprint, for canonical people
[22:18] <nealmcb> stroke!  stroke!  stroke!
[22:18] <ajmitch> ?
[22:18] <soren> nealmcb: Distro team sprint. It's on the HardyReleaseSchedule page on the wiki.
[22:18] <mathiaz> nealmcb: yes.
[22:19] <ajmitch> nealmcb: lots of top secret plotting, I'm sure :)
[22:19] <keescook> mathiaz: sorry for the delay (fighting with LVM).  security is mostly okay, we have a few things outstanding, pending syncs from Debian
[22:20] <keescook> mathiaz: AA should be working 100% with -4.7 (which is the currently published release)
[22:20] <mathiaz> keescook: so what we wanted to do for hardy is almost done.
[22:20] <mathiaz> keescook: ?
[22:20] <keescook> mathiaz: yes, very close.
[22:20] <keescook> I'm going to send out some details about how to use the new "hardening-wrapper" package too
[22:21] <mathiaz> keescook: great ! I've put the list of things to do in the Roadmap on w.ubuntu.com
[22:21] <keescook> excellent
[22:21] <mathiaz> keescook: could you make sure they're included in the release notes for the next alpha ?
[22:22] <keescook> mathiaz: sure, I can do that.  ("AppArmor works again" ?)  :P
[22:22] <mathiaz> keescook: I was more talking about the other security features that were integrated.
[22:22] <keescook> mathiaz: sure, no problemo.  :)
[22:22] <mathiaz> keescook: and the 'hardening-wrapper' package.
[22:23] <mathiaz> keescook: is this a real package ?
[22:23] <keescook> it's real in that it is a package, however it's a massive hack for testing hardening compiler options
[22:24] <keescook> the goal is to test builds in hardy with the hope of turning it on for real in hardy+1
[22:24] <mathiaz> keescook: ah ok. That the work related to the tool chain.
[22:25] <mathiaz> Well - I think we're done for the Developper section.
[22:25] <mathiaz> sommer: quick update about the documentation ?
[22:25] <keescook> yeah, or rather the build process.  it's a preamble to the DEB_BUILD* flag work that doko is doing
[22:25] <sommer> mathiaz: sure
[22:25] <sommer> couple of quick things
[22:25]  * ScottK has to run, so I'll see you all later.
[22:25] <nealmcb> factoid feedback?  => ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management, unlike webmin. See the plans for Hardy in  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
[22:25] <sommer> it's been proposed to move up the documentation freeze to allow for more qa time
[22:25]  * mathiaz waves at ScottK 
[22:26] <sommer> here's the oringal message: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-January/010149.html
[22:26] <sommer> so if there are any more major sections that need updated/added I'd like to get them done before Feb 14th
[22:26] <mathiaz> sommer: do you have some ideas  about improvements ?
[22:27] <sommer> the only ones I can think of that are coming up are eBox and OpenLikewise integration
[22:27] <sommer> from this meeting the Firewall section
[22:27] <mathiaz> sommer: how is the state of the current section ?
[22:28] <soren> sommer: eBox has a wealth of documentation of its own.
[22:28] <sommer> soren: sure, but should we have something about how it's integrated?
[22:28] <sommer> mathiaz: the firewall section is okay, mostly an intro to iptables
[22:28] <soren> sommer: Ah. No.
[22:29]  * doko should file a bug for debian such that the package doesn't enter testing ...
[22:29] <sommer> soren: Is it going to be marketed as a feature for Hardy?
[22:29] <soren> sommer: eBox? Depends on how far it gets.
[22:30] <nealmcb> my fear is that the longer the leadtimes, the less likely that the documentation will be complete and accurate, but I know it is hard either way
[22:30] <sommer> soren: ah, okay
[22:30] <mathiaz> sommer: we may wanna wait for the status update of upstream
[22:31] <sommer> mathiaz: sure, I just wanted to get a list of possible new sections. to allow for the most testing possible
[22:31] <sommer> I'm just thinking about the Enterprise Networking articles complaining about new features not being well documented :-)
[22:32] <mathiaz> sommer: Good point.
[22:32] <sommer> mathiaz: I also added an AppArmor section a while back based mostly on your wiki article... would appreciate a review if you have the time
[22:33] <mathiaz> sommer: I'd focus one things that have already been uploaded and integrated, such as virtualization, appamor, security features and ubuntu firewall.
[22:33] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, virtualization isn't covered (except for JeOS)
[22:33] <sommer> O
[22:34] <sommer> I'll work on a virtualization section and try to solicite some help on the doc ml
[22:34] <mathiaz> sommer: yeah - It may be worth adding a section about it, based on the blog post from soren.
[22:34] <soren> I was just about to say that :)
[22:34] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will add a section on virtualization based on soren's blog.
[22:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will add a section on virtualization based on soren's blog.
[22:35] <sommer> cool, other than that everything is coming along, just need to test commands and configs for accuracy
[22:35] <sommer> or however you spell that
[22:35] <soren> Looks right to me.
[22:36] <mathiaz> sommer: great ! seems like the server guide is in good shape for hardy. :)
[22:37] <mathiaz> I think we've covered a lot of stuff for today's meeting.
[22:37] <mathiaz> Anything else to add ?
[22:37] <nealmcb> factoid feedback?  => ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management, unlike webmin. See the plans for Hardy in  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
[22:37] <mathiaz> nealmcb: I wouldn't mention webmin.
[22:37] <nealmcb> well that is what folks search on I'd guess
[22:37] <nealmcb> or we could update the webmin factoid to point to ebox
[22:37] <nealmcb> !webmin
[22:37] <ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system - Consider "ebox" instead
[22:38] <nealmcb> done :-)
[22:38] <nealmcb> but make it "!ebox"
[22:38] <mathiaz> seems good to me.
[22:38] <nealmcb> soren?
[22:38] <mathiaz> you may wanna post it to ubuntu-server, to get more feedback.
[22:39] <soren> I'm ok with it.
[22:40] <nealmcb> mathiaz: I already did
[22:40] <nealmcb> and got none
[22:40] <mathiaz> nealmcb: ok. then go ahead and add it to ubotuy
[22:40] <nealmcb> will do
[22:40] <mathiaz> [ACTION] nealmcb will add an ebox item to the factoids.
[22:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb will add an ebox item to the factoids.
[22:40] <mathiaz> Any other business ?
[22:41] <sommer> mathiaz: I found the log about the JeOS article: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[22:41] <sommer> just fyi
[22:41]  * sommer looking forward to Hardy
[22:41] <mathiaz> sommer: ok. thanks.
[22:42] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[22:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[22:44] <sommer> same time, same place?
[22:44] <nealmcb> yup
[22:44] <mathiaz> I guess so.
[22:44] <ajmitch> seems to be a lack of arguments against it
[22:44] <mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place.
[22:45] <mathiaz> Thank all for your participation :)
[22:45] <soren> \o/
[22:45] <sommer> thank you mathiaz, later all
[22:45] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[22:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:45.
[22:45]  * ajmitch never did find out how all the ldap stuff was going this time round
[22:46] <mathiaz> ajmitch: basically, we're waiting for openldap 2.4 to hit the debian archive
[22:47] <ajmitch> right, the one that works with gnutls, and so you can ship recent libraries?
[22:47] <mathiaz> ajmitch: yes ! :)
[22:47] <ajmitch> finally! :)