poolieigc, do you want to talk about benchmarking some time?00:07
igcpoolie: sure00:07
igcyou call me?00:07
dysingerNoob Q : So will bzr rewind my local commits when I rebase and then apply them again?00:32
dysingerlike git ?00:32
dysingerEr sorry I should RTFM http://bazaar-vcs.org/Rebase00:35
lifelessdysinger: you can do that if you want yes00:36
dysingerwhat RTFM ? :)00:36
lifelessdysinger: our community rarely uses rebase because its very bad for collaboration00:36
dysingerWell it's useful when your team uses SVN IMO00:36
dysingerI guess because I have some of the team on SVN and some on DVCS00:37
dysingerso the we could all just pull from each other except some people are only commiting to SVN00:37
lifelessI still don't get what rebase does for you; just merge and commit and away you go00:37
lifelessyou don't need rebase for that at all00:37
dysingerI guess my mind is polluted with git-svn00:38
dysingerBZR will be a fun new (hopefully simpler) experience00:38
lifelesswhen someone commits to svn, you 'bzr merge' to get their stuff into your branch00:38
lifelesswhen you want to commit to svn, you do 'bzr checkout svn:///' merge and commit00:38
dysingerGit treats SVN as a whole separate add on side-car which sucks.00:39
* AfC just read the URL about rebase above and *still* doesn't get what it's for. {sigh}00:39
lifelessit would be extremly hard to do other with gits design00:39
lifelessAfC: rebase is for folk that care about having a 'pretty revision graph'00:39
AfCI guess00:39
lifelessAfC: more than having effective collaboration00:39
dysingerWell rebase is awesome for things like:  Fore example I am tracking bazaar but I don't have commit access - so I can rebase and re-apply my commits on top of the latest head.00:40
lifelessdysinger: or you can just merge.00:40
dysingerSo I guess yeah - why would you have rebase then ?00:40
lifelessdysinger: your commits are preserved and if you have shared your commits with other people they don't have to resync specially when you merge, like people have to with rebase00:41
lifelessdysinger: as I say above, rebase is about 'revision graph prettiness'00:41
dysingerI see00:41
lifelesssome people care intensely about that; for them we have rebase ;)00:41
AfClifeless: huh. Thanks. [I'll admit that there some ... concerns ... that I have about the human usefulness of the revision graph as presented by log and viz UIs at present, but it doesn't seem to be a rebase related thing]00:41
dysingerthat would be me00:41
lifelessrebase can /also/ be used for some internal trickiness related to changing translations between bzr and svn and other such systems, but thats more using the core logic than using the commands00:42
lifelessdysinger: well, you may find you care less with bzr's log layout :)00:42
dysingeri am looking forward to playing with it.00:43
dysingerSo the pastable install script for OS - X, BZR 1.1, SVN w/ patch, bzr-svn is different than http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion says to do it.  http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion does NOT work on OS X.00:44
dysingerShould I put it somewhere for others?00:44
lifelessdysinger: cool, edit that page and add a version for os X00:45
Peng"Bazaar-NG branch format 5" is dirstate, right? Why is it listed as "unnamed" in bzr info?00:50
lifelessPeng: the format name reporting is bogus, there is a bug on it00:51
lifelessPeng: format 5 with knits and dirstate is 'dirstate'00:51
lifelessPeng: format 5 with packs is 'unnamed'00:51
PengAhhh, ok.00:52
PengYeah, I'm using packs.00:52
PengThanks for the explanation. :)00:54
=== mw is now known as mw|out
dysingerok I updated bzr-svn wiki with the right install info for OS X00:57
dysingerjelmer thanks for hanging in there - it's working now!  I am off to play with some svn repos00:59
pooliedysinger, thanks!01:14
dysingerSo who's an expert on light-weight branching?02:11
lifelessfsvo expert many people02:13
lifelessjust ask :)02:13
dysingerSo I need a plugin? https://launchpad.net/bzr-lightweight-branch02:17
dysingerI want to checkout from svn once and then branch off that for topics - but I don't want to copy the whole branch everytime - that would be rudundant and huge.  Git does this with the --shared and --references flags.02:18
dysingerI also heard you can have many branches within the same directory like Git02:19
dysingerMaybe that would be better02:19
bob2create a repository (need to use init-repo --rich-root) and branch into that02:19
bob2er, from svn into that02:19
dysingerSo instead of branching right from svn with bzr branch svn:///..... I do it this way?02:21
bob2well, you make the repository, then use "bzr branch svn..." to branch into that repository02:21
dysingermkdir project ; cd project ; bzr init-repo --rich-root ; bzr branch svn:///some/url ./02:21
bob2you can't really have multiple branches "within the same directory like Git"02:21
bob2you can have a repository, which contains branches (each is a dir), and it efficiently shares data between them, so you're not using N times as much space for N branches02:22
bob2"bzr init-repo --rich-root ~/repository/ ; bzr branch svnL//blah ~/repository/trunk/ ; bzr branch ~/repository/trunk/ ~/repository/the-feature-I-am-working-on"02:23
dysingerSo if I already branched off of svn directly do i have to do it again this way?02:23
bob2--no-trees is optional for init-repo, and means it does not include checkouts of the branches along with the branches02:24
foombob2: sure you can; bzr switch will let you do exactly that.02:24
dysingerI thought I read you could02:24
bob2you should be able to branch from the existing checkout into the repository02:24
dysingerIn the bzr vs git page02:24
bob2foom: that was the next bit02:24
foombob2: oh okay. :)02:24
bob2dysinger: you can, though, quickly switch between branches in a checkout using bzr switch, like foom says02:24
dysingerthat's what I need02:25
dysingerI don't want new IDE setup on every branch02:25
dysingerI just want to switch between branches fast.02:25
bob2that's what I use switch for, works well02:27
lifelessdysinger: if you already branched from svn into dir FOO02:27
lifelessdysinger: then this:02:27
lifelessbzr init --rich-root myrepo02:27
lifelessbzr branch $FOO myrepo/svntrunk02:27
dysingerawesome that's what I want then - though I am glad about the light-weight branch-to-another dir option too - I like how flexible bzr is02:27
lifelessdysinger: will transfer the data into the repo02:27
bob2not init-repo?02:28
AfCdysinger: When I started working with bzr, the `bzr switch` command was ... unavailable ... and so we developed an alternate approach to dealing with the "and I sure as hell don't want to have to reconfigure my IDE every time I branch" meme02:32
AfCdysinger: we have the source code in .../project/mainline .../project/branch1 .../project/branh2, etc02:32
AfCdysinger: where .../project is created with `bzr init-repository`02:33
lifelessbob2: oh yeah, I meant to type init-repo02:33
AfCdysinger: and the first branch was `bzr init mainline`02:33
dysingerAFC: lemme guess - symlinks?02:34
AfCdysinger: all subsequent branches were, of course, created with the `bzr branch` aka `bzr clone` command02:34
AfCdysinger: yes, that's where I'm heading02:34
dysingerI like the switch option - I'll try that.02:34
AfCdysinger: then (this is Eclipse, but whatever), in02:34
dysingerI am using eclipse too02:34
AfCEclipse's ~/workspace we have02:35
AfC~/workspace/projectname ->.../project/whicheverbranch02:35
dysingerWith eclipse and maven it's easier - mvn eclipse:eclipse can generate project files on the fly then you can import them with the mult-project import plugin.02:35
AfCand we just move the symlink.02:35
dysingerok thanks AfC02:36
AfCYou don't need maven, but whatever.02:36
dysingerI Do - but that's not related to this.02:36
dysingerSo do I need the --rich-root to work with switch ?02:37
dysingerDoes the lightweight branching occur automatically when you are within a rich root ?02:38
AfCAlso, be aware that `bzr switch` evolved from a different concept that Git's. The Bazaar hackers are working on it, but it wasn't a high priority until recently, and the current implementation is somewhat specific.02:38
abentleyAfC: The switch command is quite similar to its bzrtools incarnation, so a bug report on the data loss you encountered would still be welcome.02:39
dysingerHeh yeah - I am just coming over from Git so I am wanting that switch thing02:39
lifelessdysinger: no, lightweight always requires the option02:40
AfCabentley: did I mention your name? Was a talking to you? Did I say data loss?02:40
abentleyAfC: No, though you hinted at something to do with the bzrtools incarnation.02:41
dysingerWhen I branch from svn and then branch again somewhere else (like into a rich repo as suggested above) can I commit back to svn directly?02:41
lifelessdysinger: yes, just push02:41
abentleyAfC: But in general, I feel free to join in conversations on public fora like IRC.02:41
lifelessdysinger: or simply bind/do a a checkout from svn (using bzr checkout) again.02:42
lifelessdysinger: the shared repository will mean that only new data is copied, so it will be nice and fast02:42
AfCdysinger: for what it's worth, you're getting on into the area where experience will fill in the blanks. Bazaar is *very* powerful, you can trust it implicitly, but it does work a wee bit differently that Git and you'll probably need to work with it a bit before you catch on to the differences.02:42
dysingerJust getting my feet wet today02:42
AfCdysinger: that's obviously from my own experience, but beware that it doesn't quite do things Gits way. That's neither good nor bad, but if you think in purely Git terms you may beat your head a bit.02:43
AfCdysinger: yeah, so just try stuff a bit.02:43
dysingerIs the --lightweight plugin needed to do light-weight branching ? You guys didn't mention it above but it's on the plugin page.02:43
AfCdysinger: even creating a full branch or two for a moment to try stuff (including commits and merges) lthen throwing them away won't cost you anything.02:43
lifelessdysinger: no02:44
lifelessdysinger: I have no idea about that plugin02:44
* AfC watches another new user flail with the question of what the heck is "lightweight"02:44
dysingerAfC - I have already done that - I have pushed and pulled and merged like nuts over the last week.  Today I just got bzr-svn working and now I want to use it for real.02:44
AfCdysinger: sweet.02:45
AfCdysinger: guess what I'm saying is that you can keep at the experimentation for sure (at least on the Bazaar side)02:45
AfCdysinger: and if you have access to create dummy repos on the svn side you're really set02:45
dysingerBut "for real" means checking out a real very large svn project.  I didn't want to copy it everytime I made a branch.02:45
lifelessdysinger: you don't have to; init-repo and you're done02:45
AfCThe other guys will want to know: how large is large?02:46
AfC[The Bazaar hackers, of which I am not one, are especially interested in Bazaar performance and usability on huge projects]02:46
dysingerIt's probably not large by your guys standards sorry.  Only about 5000 commits but it's about 500MB02:46
AfCThe svn repo is 500MB, a clean checkout is 500MB, or the release tarball is 500MB?02:47
lifelessspiv/abentley if you feel like doing a review SearchResult would love one02:47
abentleySorry, I have to go rock out.02:47
spivlifeless: ok, I'll take a look sometime this afternoon02:48
lifelessabentley: enjoy!02:48
lifelessspiv: thanks; I have fetch converted to use SearchResult now02:49
lifelessmaking sure all tests pass and that branch will go up; then onto hpss integration02:49
foomAfC: unfortunately it's still really bad. :P02:49
foombut at least it's gone from really *really* bad to only really bad. :)02:50
AfCfoom: progress! :)02:50
AfCAbstractly, I wonder where the break point is. Number of revisions? Size of repository? Size of code:revision ratio?02:51
spivlifeless: sweet02:52
lifelessdysinger: the lightweight /branching/ plugin gives you 'partial history'; its reduces the data the repository stores rather than having no repository (which is what lightweight checkouts do)02:52
foomfrom my understanding, the current speed issues are related to loading the index, which I guess is related to number of revisions02:53
lifelessdysinger: erm, no I'm wrong02:53
foombut I don't actually know, all I know is that it's still pretty slow. :)02:53
lifelessdysinger: its the same as 'bzr cbranch' which is a bzrtools plugin, AFAICT02:53
foom(for a 60krev repo)02:53
lifelessfoom: speed issues in what operations?02:53
foomsay, log.02:54
lifelessthats due to log doing a global sort on the revisions02:54
AfC(ie, where does Bazaar go from being a wonderful experience to choking? I imagine that most people working on or evaluating Bazaar, except possibly lifeless, haven't seen the cumulative effect of a marginal one-more-wafer-thin revision; most try to import some huge 20 year old project and something isn't cool and so they give up)02:55
lifelessand yes index speed matters there; the current indices are good at partial loads but not so hot at full loads02:55
dysingerSorry guys - all / most of this is already plain as day over in http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/en/user-guide/index.html - you guys should tell me to RTFM ! :)02:55
lifelessdysinger: we're a friendly lot :]02:55
lifeless50% done no failures02:57
* AfC goes for coffee. dysinger, I hope bzr goes well for you. Good luck.03:18
lifelesspatch sent03:19
lifelessspiv: ping03:27
lifelessspiv: what is the current verb for 'pull revisions' that I should be replacing ?03:27
lifelessspiv: and why are there two verbs for it ? SmartServerRepositoryStreamKnitDataForRevisions03:29
spivlifeless: there's two, because one buffers everything, and the other sends the response in chunks03:30
lifelessI see two for the same request object03:30
spivOh, ugh, I see.03:31
spivI wonder how that happened...03:31
lifelessRepository.stream_knit_data_for_revisions SmartServerRepositoryStreamKnitDataForRevisions and  Repository.chunked_stream_knit_data_for_revisions SmartServerRepositoryStreamKnitDataForRevisions03:31
lifelessI iz confused03:31
spivstream_knit_data_for_revisions is the original, buffering one.03:32
lifelessis there one that is not in a release yet ?03:32
spivstream_revisions_chunked is the right verb for the better, chunking one.03:32
lifelessspiv: is stream_revisions_chunked in 1.1 ?03:34
spivchunked_stream_knit_data_for_revisions should not exist.03:34
spivstream_revisions_chunked has not been in a release.03:34
spiv(and neither has chunked_stream_knit_data_for_revisions, thankfully)03:34
lifelessI'll delete one and alter the other03:34
spivlifeless: thanks03:34
spivlifeless: and thanks for spotting it!03:34
patterncan bazaar version symbolic links?03:40
Manfrehow do I tell bzr to use an SSH key while doing bzr push bzr+ssh?03:40
patternlooks like bazaar can version symbolic links  :)03:45
patternyay even :)03:45
bob2Manfre: just does it for me03:45
Manfrei'm on windows03:46
bob2ah, dunno then03:46
Manfrecool...it's working03:56
Manfrei successfully pushed a branch up to launchpad04:05
lifelessspiv: I'm running more and more into 'RemoteRepository has duplicate code cause its not a subclass'04:12
lostylostHey, does anyone know if there would be compatibility issues commiting to a remote repo with bzr1 from a local bzr1.1 client?04:42
lifelesslostylost: there should not be, but we recommend that bzr servers run the latest release for best performance04:43
lostylostthat makes sense04:43
lostylostI have had a few errors with bzr lately and it's getting me nervous04:43
spivlostylost: what sort of errors?04:44
lostylostI lost a complete revision, I think due to my rashness. I was committing locally to a repo. When I tried to commit it said to update, so I did. It gave an error message.04:45
lostylostI can't recall exactly what it said04:45
spivlostylost: your ~/.bzr.log may still have the error in it04:45
lostylostsomething about to check the .bzr/checkout/pending-deletes04:46
lostylostanyway, it said to delete the ones in there, I foolishly manually deleted them thinking everything would still be in the repo04:46
lostylostsomehow I lost a whole revision04:46
lostylostCheck the bzr log hey04:47
lostylostI would like to understand what happened for next time04:47
lostylostall that was in the directory was files with numerical names...04:49
lifelesslostylost: if you ever have to look inside .bzr there is a bug of some sort; ask a question here or on launchpad04:54
lostylostImmortalPendingDeletion: Unable to delete transform temporary directory D:/invoice/trunk/.bzr/checkout/pending-deletion.  Please examine D:/invoice/trunk/.bzr/checkout/pending-deletion to see if it contains any files you wish to keep, and delete it when you are done.04:55
lostylostthat is the error message I got04:55
lostylostI just deleted all the stuff in there, thinking it was "temporary" working directory stuff04:56
lifelessits things that are to be deleted04:56
lifelessduring the application of a merge/update/pull04:56
lostylostso if I actually deleted them they wouldn't have been then?04:56
lostylostor are they all moved there temporarily?04:57
lostylostjust the actual working tree files?04:57
bob2how do files end up there rather than just conflicting?04:57
lostylosthow come a whole local commit disappeared, along with it's message?04:57
lostylostI shouldn't have been so rash, damn it :(04:58
lostylostbob2: it was an "ERROR:"04:59
lifelesslostylost: the update should have left your local commit as a pending merge05:00
lifelesslostylost: the bug that caused the update to fail probably left the tree unupdated; the commit is still in your repository05:00
lostylostI don't see it by running bzr log --forward05:00
lostylostI have only 19, should be 2005:01
lifelesslostylost: if you install the bzr heads plugin, you can do 'bzr heads' to find it05:01
lostylostthank you!05:01
lostylosthope yet05:01
Solarionso, when you merge, you merge into the working directory?05:02
Solarionyou can't merge up?05:02
bob2merge doesn't commit, so no05:02
Solarionmerge doesn't commit?05:03
bob2merge merges changes into your working tree05:03
lifelessmerge generates a tree with the combination of two existing commits05:03
lifelessthis gives you the ability to review what you are merging05:03
lifelessand then do 'bzr commit' to save it05:04
Solarionthat makes sense.05:05
SolarionI really like that the log has all of the previous logs in it.05:05
bob2do git hg etc do the nested log thing?05:06
Solarionno idea05:06
SolarionI found bzr and it was tasty crack, so here I am.05:06
lifelessbob2: hg doesn't05:08
lifelessbob2: AFAIR git doesn't05:08
Solarionhow does one manage a remote bzr branch?05:08
Solarion(without logging in, cd'ing to the dir, and then running commands there)05:09
Solarionin fact, I'm now doing the 3-branch interface between svn and bzr so that I can stay sane and keep my collaborator happy.  :)05:10
bob2push to it and/or checking it out and commiting to it05:10
lifelessSolarion: define manage05:10
Solarionlifeless: I have 2 branches (+ the one in SVN)--a working branch and the trunk.  Trunk is kept synchronized with the svn repo and merges in changes from the working branch, but otherwise I don't really directly access it.05:11
Solarionlifeless: the two branches are on my server, so that I can keep synchronized between workstation and laptop (and whatever else).05:12
lostylostno luck with bzr heads05:13
lifelesslostylost: you get only one head ?05:13
lostylostno I was jumping the gun05:14
Solarionlifeless: I can bzr push/pull to/from the working branch from my workstation to keep it up to date.  However, it seems that I have to be in (a branch of) the trunk branch or (a branch of) the working branch to sync between them, or to sync to/from the svn server.05:14
lostylostI think I am inluck05:14
lostylostbzr head --all shows it05:14
Solarionlifeless: Thus, I either have to pull a copy of whatever branch I'm actively working on, do the changes, and push it up, or else ssh in to the server to do the operations.05:14
Solarionlifeless: Ideally, I'd like to just, say, run bzr --root=sftp://server/path operation05:15
lostylostok so it's in there, how do  retrieve it?  it says it's a (dead) revision?05:15
lifelesslostylost: bzr merge . -r revid:THEREVISIONID05:15
Solarionlifeless: in which case, instead of looking at the current directory, bzr acts like sftp://server/path is the current working directory (or root of the branch)05:16
lostylostthank you very much lifeless, your a godsend05:16
lifelessSolarion: we don't generally do working tree operations over teh network because things like 'stat' are really not reliable, and they are needed05:16
lifelessSolarion: why don't you just have both branches on your laptop and work there05:17
Solarionlifeless: I have a workstation I work on about the same amount of the time05:17
lifelessSolarion: then whenever you feel like it bzr push to the server (e.g. when you are about to switch to another machine)05:17
SolarionI suppose that'll work05:17
Solarionstill, I like the --root option idea better.  :)05:17
lifelesswhat I'd do is different05:18
SolarionAlso, I'd like a pony.05:18
Solarionbzr --pony05:18
lifelessI'd just work on the laptop and workstation as separate branches05:18
lifeless60% tests passed, looks like this patch is done05:19
Solarionlifeless: still not help when I need to sync the changes over to trunk.05:19
SolarionI like "micro-checkins" as my boss calls it, while he likes larger changes.05:19
Solarionhaving trunk helps put all of my little changes into one big one.  Keeps both of us happy.  :)05:20
lifelessSolarion: sure; so have a checkout of trunk on both laptop and workstation05:20
lifelessSolarion: then you just merge to that checkout and 'bzr commit'05:20
Solarionlifeless: then I'd have to care about keeping them synchronized.05:20
lifelessSolarion: no, bzr will manage that for you05:20
SolarionThe management of it that I've seen thus far from bzr consists of telling me I need to merge the changes manually.  :(05:21
lifelesscheckouts won't commit if the master is newer than the local tree; just like 'svn'05:21
Solarionanyhow, ssh'ing over to the server isn't a big deal; it's just annoying05:21
lifelessso you'll get 'cannot commit, run bzr update' if you haven't run bzr update before merging, but thats all05:21
Solarionlifeless: unless your changes + their changes require a manual merge05:22
lifeless'bzr checkout's workflow really is designed for 'trunk' situations05:22
lifelessSolarion: then you'll get a tree you can resolve the conflict it, and when you do that and ocmmit it will be all synced05:22
Solarionyeah, I ran checkout for a while, but it took a while whenever I wanted to commit.05:22
Solarionlifeless: I'd rather just not have to deal with keeping multiple branches in sync and ssh to the server.05:23
lifelessSolarion: ah, interesting05:23
Solarionor, use the --root option (in combination with --pony)  :)05:23
Solariontrunk is really just for combining commits so my boss is happy.05:23
Solarionthe less annoying it is, the better05:24
Solarionthough keeping multiple branches in sync is still less annoying than having to use svn05:24
Solarioninteresting.  pushing the merged changes just kept my overall message, not the sub-messages.05:26
Solarion(according to svn log)05:26
codeslingerhi, pardon me for barging in. New user, quick question.   I cant get the authentication.conf file to work.  have read and re-read the docs till my eyeballs are spiing but just dont get what the problem is. can somebody please give me a hint.05:27
codeslingerIm am trying to set up automatice password so I dont have to keep typing it.  everything else is working far as I can tell05:28
lifelessSolarion: thats svn's failure to track merges AIUI05:28
Solarionsvn seems to fail quite a bit05:29
lifelessSolarion: yes :)05:29
Solarionah well, I can put it somewhere where it'll be found in the next merge.05:29
Solarionlifeless: thanks for the help, but it is bedtime for bonzo05:29
* Solarion heads to bed05:29
lifelesscodeslinger: I have no idea sorry; I haven't used that feature05:30
dysingerhmm I was all excited to use bzr-svn today.   However after trying it - it's unusable slow.  Am I doing something wrong?  I branched from svn.  I did a "lightweight" checkout which took a couple of minutes.  I open a file a put one line of whitespace in and committed locally.  Then I did a push parent.   It's been going 5 minutes now with 4 ===05:30
lifelessdysinger: there is a first time startup cost which is pretty high AIUI05:31
codeslingerhow many megs of files??   speed is good for me with about 40megs of files.05:31
dysingerI put one line of whitespace in a file and made a commit comment - then I am trying to get that back into sv.05:31
lifelessdysinger: so you're pushing to svn:// ? from bzr?05:31
dysingerIt's been twirling for 5 minutes now.05:31
foomdysinger: the first time you do "anything" it loads a bunch of stuff into a cache05:32
codeslingerlifeless -- are you saying that you type the password after every command???  or just run everything local?   I find the password prompt tedious real fast.05:32
dysingertrying to push that one commit up05:32
lifelessdysinger: like I say though, AIUI there is a first time cost where it maps a bunch of data05:32
lifelesscodeslinger: I use ssh with ssh-agent05:32
dysingerdidn't it map that on the way when I branched it?05:32
foomprobably not since you did a lightweight branch05:32
dysingerNo the test commit to svn I did on the branch I took from svn05:33
lifelessdysinger: I've seen jelmer explain this to other people;05:33
lifelessdysinger: if you allow it to finish and try again I understand it to be much much faster05:33
dysingerI branched my trunk svn project with bzr-svn, made one line of whitespace and then tried to push that back to svn05:33
dysingerlifeless - ok05:33
codeslingerlifeless -- ssh-agent -- oh, okay, I see a vague reference to it, but did not yet find/read that section.    if that works well then I guess I better give it a shot05:33
foombtw, is your home directory on a local disk?05:33
dysingerIt's taken forever so it's scared me.05:33
dysingerIt's never taken this long with file:// or sftp://05:34
foomi ran into the issue where it was taking *extra* forever due to it putting the cache on NFS.05:34
codeslingercould be the speed issue is related to the hybyrd interface to svn.  I create a clean repository from scratch and was satisfied with the speed.  its not a mamoth project, but it's not lightweight either.05:38
dysingerI am hoping this is just some one time cost.05:38
dysingerit's been committing my one line of whitespace for 10 minutes now.  It's churning through things like it's evaluating all 5000 commits 1st though05:39
foomit is05:39
codeslingerdoes anybody else have any ideas about authentication.conf ???   is there a trick to getting it to work???  maybe its a bug???05:39
lifelessspiv: ping05:43
lifelessspiv: I'd like a quick chat05:43
lostylostthanks again lifesaver05:49
lifelesslostylost: np05:49
dysingerHow do I manipulate the "parent" branch - say I branched and then the parent is gone now.05:50
pooliedysinger, i believe it's set by pull --remember05:50
pooliethere might be a more direct way?05:51
dysingerSo let me ask another question - is there some benefit to setting up a rich root and the branching a svn repository into it a subdirectory vs just branching a svn directory somewhere else?  When I do a bzr info on both of them the both say rich-root type.05:53
dysinger"as a subdirectory"05:53
codeslingerlifeless -- Im trying to find the docs for ssh agent.  the manual refers to it in several places.  but nowhere do  I find a section on setting it up???05:54
dysingerI don't see the benefit of the creating a bzr init-repo --rich-root repostitory and then going into that directory and bzr branch http://my/svn/repo05:55
dysingerI can just  bzr branch http://my/svn/repo directly05:55
dysingerboth ways I can checkout --lightweight from it.05:55
dysingermaybe I am missing something.05:56
foomyou can have a heavyweight checkout for "free" inside the repo05:56
foominstead of just a lightweight one05:56
dysingeroh you mean I don't have to specify the --lightweight ?05:56
foomnot only don't you have to specify it, you get all the revision data immediately there05:57
codeslingerfrom reading the manual, it says that the main advantage of the repro is when you have multiple branches.   Lightweight is basically for when you want just the files and nothing else.  for instance the example give is that you are publishing to a website.  otherwise heavywieght is usually what you want.05:58
codeslingerwhen you have multiple branches the shared repro is able to avoid duplication.  if you only have one branch you won't see any savings.05:59
codeslingerquestion: I have multiple projects that use some of the same files.  I can keep all of these shared files in their own directory.  what is the best way to share them amoung multiple unrelated projects?06:00
PengYou'd put them in another branch, and include them with subtrees (something akin to svn:externals). Unfortunately, that's not exactly supported yet. :P06:01
Pengs/include them/include that branch/06:02
dysingerok Let's take the case of using a subversion "trunk" repository as the parent:  If I create a shared repo and then branch svn trunk into it as "trunk" and then I have another branch from svn called "branch-x" that I clone and then I branch locally from trunk.  You are saying that the shared repository is aware of the commits so that it doesn't duplicate data ?06:04
codeslingerits not clear to me how to do subtrees, but some of what Ive read cause me to think that it is still being developed.06:04
bob2dysinger: for branches within the repository, yes06:04
dysingerok I see the benefit then.  Thanks.06:05
dysingerSo I am going to create a shared repo with bzr init-repo --rich-root myrepo then branch a remote svn "trunk" and remote "branch-x" into the repo.  THen I can go into the repo and "checkout trunk my-topic" and make commits to that.06:06
Pengcodeslinger: Yeah, subtrees are experimental.06:06
bob2well, "branch trunk my-topic"06:07
dysingercheckout is not recommended?06:07
codeslingerok, thanks, I will avoid that for now.   any ideas where I can find the docs to config ssh agent?06:07
dysingerbranch would give me a clone06:07
bob2well, you'd need to make a my-topic a branch in the repository, then check that out06:08
codeslingeryes, branch is a connected clone06:08
dysingerThat would make 3 layers there - 1 branch svn, 1 more branch "my-topic" and then one checkout?06:09
lifelessdysinger: checkout is recomment just fine06:09
bob2three steps, yes06:09
dysingerI don't see the benefit ...  In git I clone, then branch, work, commit, merge, push etc.  Then delete the branch and move on.06:09
codeslingerthe checkout is your working set of files where you make you changes. the svn branch would be your base06:10
dysingerCouldn't I just branch from svn and then branch off that for topics, commit and then push  ?06:10
bob2you can06:10
dysingeroh codeslinger says I _can_ checkout off the svn branch06:11
* dysinger needs to learn the diff between branch and checkout.06:11
bob2yes, using a repository is just an organisational/efficiency thing06:11
bob2sorry if I confused you by suggesting it06:11
dysingerIt's fine - I am drinking from the firehose06:11
dysingerNo better way to drink if you ask me.  -  just get it over with06:12
SilktraderI had a glance at Bazaar's container formats, and I see dirstate and knit ...06:12
SilktraderIs there a way to have plain files stored?06:12
PengSilktrader: Plain files? What do you mean? Why?06:12
SilktraderI am using bzr to track changes on Word documents.06:13
SilktraderThough I would like to index them.06:13
SilktraderSo I can search within those.06:13
SilktraderRight now bzr stores revisions as .packs.06:13
PengFor a mirrored bzr branch on Launchpad, would bzr+http be better than http? Does "bzr pull" or whatever LP uses perform better in some way with bzr+http?06:13
dysingerWhen you guys checkout from svn - I am sure some of you do in here - just to deal with other projects that use svn.  When you do that do you checkout the repository root or do you checkout individual branches, trunk and tags ?06:13
PengFWIW, 99% of the time, LP will find no new changes.06:14
PengSilktrader: Why do you want to index the repository instead of the working tree?06:14
SilktraderBecause I may delete content from the working tree.06:14
SilktraderI have document X, which I edit and commit.06:15
SilktraderThen I reedit document X, take off stuff, recommit.06:15
dysingerSorry to ask so many questions - I promise to help out with other noobs when I get done.06:15
SilktraderI would like to be able to search through what has been deleted, for instance.06:15
SilktraderThat is - through old revisions.06:15
PengSilktrader: Ooh, that's pretty neat.06:15
bob2dysinger: latter, doing the former on big svn repositories would be huge06:16
foomchecking out the repository root is a good way to use up your whole hard drive. :)06:16
dysingerOK so you make a shared bzr repo and then checkout trunk and checkout branch-a etc.06:16
codeslingerdysinger -- okay, say you start out with the svn in the shared repository.  you leave that prestine as your base.  then you make a branch in the repository and that becomes your target for any changes.  these both are living on the server.   now you do a branch on your local computer from the branch that you made of the svn.  this thrid branch is your working set, where you make your changes.  when you do a checkout you are connecting your 06:16
codeslingerbranch to the servers branch such that any commits are made immediatly to the server as well as local.  this is refered to as lock-step mode and is probably closest to how you are used to working with svn.   but you do not actually have to do a checkout, you can skip that process and work with the local branch in dristubited mode.06:16
PengSilktrader: Anyway, bzr currently does not have a format that stores a bunch of plain files. That would be horribly inefficient.06:16
PengSilktrader: You could always develop one if you wanted to . . . :D06:16
SilktraderPeng: I understand. But given small repos ... space efficiency is not so important, is it.06:17
foomPeng: you'd be surprised: some VCSes only store full files, no diffs.06:17
PengSilktrader: True.06:17
bob2Peng: hardlinking identical files...06:17
foomPeng: "hard disk space is cheap" is the theory06:17
bob2you could call it a "revision library"06:17
SilktraderFoom: which ones?06:17
Pengfoom: What, svn working copies (ughhh, that was a bad design decision) and git? With git, you're supposed to pack occasionally.06:18
foomSilktrader: accurev is one06:18
SilktraderProprietary, right?06:18
bob2doesn't svn gzip pristines now?06:18
SilktraderGzip is already decent ...06:19
foomnot in the last released version...dunno about the next version06:19
SilktraderAs content can be easily indexed within archives.06:19
dysingercodeslinger - If I didn't want to go that complex and keep it distributed like git - I could just create a shared repo, branch svn there and then branch again from that - commit, commit and then push back to svn.  Correct?06:19
codeslingerI dunno....  but frankly I'd be pretty nervous about it.  plenty of opportunity for bugs to byte yea in the interface/conversions to/from svn06:22
dysingerreally?  so bzr-svn isn't ready for prime-time?  I have to work with others that aren't on bzr - they are on svn.06:23
codeslingerdid you figure out how to get it to not ask you for a pasword?06:23
codeslingerwhats the secret???   to the password?  I've been thrashing it for a couple of hours now with no luck.06:24
dysingerI mean I would be all for fully distrubuted mode with git or bzr for me team but I have to get them to take baby-steps06:24
dysingerI just cloned (branched) from subverison with http://myuser:mypassword:server/repo06:24
dysingerI mean http://myuser:mypassword@server/repo06:25
dysingerhttp basic style06:25
codeslingerawww  thats too simple :-)    thanks.06:25
dysingerMaybe it doesn't remember my password though - I need to use it more to make sure.06:25
dysingerIt does at least keep the username - I can see that in the bzr info06:26
lifelessfoom: disk space is cheap; disk cache is not06:26
lifelessSilktrader: I suggest you index by writing a small amount of glue for your indexer06:27
lifelessSilktrader: so that it can extract all the historical versions during initial indexing06:27
foomlifeless: yeah but who ever accesses old revisions, anyways!06:28
codeslingeras fro svn, I'm a bzr noob.  I only know what Ive read in the docs so far.   but my overall impression is that bzr is still a little young.  plus just general experience says that a hybyrd interface is asking for trouble.  I'd be very conservative if I was you, last thing you need happening is corruypting either of the stores.  won't make a good impression on your team.06:28
SilktraderI do, foom. Very often.06:28
SilktraderPerhaps not when writing software.06:28
Silktraderlifeless: thanks, but can't code a plugin for the indexer ...06:29
Silktrader... I'd rather use the filesystem and that's it.06:29
lifelessSilktrader: write it in fuse then :)06:29
lifelessSilktrader: but that said, sounds like the indexer is pretty primitive06:29
SilktraderCome on, write a fuse plugin to deal with that? :-)06:29
lifelessSilktrader: sure; expose the historical trees over fuse06:29
SilktraderLucene, Google Search, etc.06:29
foomhey now, a fuse plugin for bzr would be nifty06:29
SilktraderThey can't deal with bzr's packs.06:29
foomsomeone was just telling me the other day how awesome it was in ClearCase how you could just use normal unix utilities to navigate history06:30
lifelessSilktrader: they wouldn't need do; you can generate any flat namespace you like;06:30
lifelessfoom: yah; I wrote a fuse plugin using pyfuse and pybaz06:30
Silktraderlifeless: It's great to be spurred to write code ... but I don't have the time nor the skill to :-)06:31
SilktraderBesides ...06:32
SilktraderI work on Windows machines ...06:32
SilktraderSo no fuse I suppose.06:32
codeslingerthere is a reference in the manual with pointers to an article about using word revision tracking in conjunction with bzr06:32
foomthere's fuse for windows now I believe06:32
Silktradercodeslinger: searching, thanks.06:32
Silktradercodeslinger: I see a DocDiff plugin.06:34
codeslingerthat could be it, I didn't read it since I dont need it.   be careful of word revisions though they are not that reliable.06:34
SilktraderThey suck.06:35
SilktraderBoth Word and OO.06:35
codeslingerit's hard to do it right, the complexities of the documents is huge.  I don't know what OO's track record is for revisions, but I have a lot of experience with word revisions and know that they are not something you would want to use with complex docs, as long as you stick to text with no tables or art objects you should be fine.06:37
lifelesswith oo you can get diffs from bzr, using bzr to track the revisions06:37
codeslingerthat sounds great.  I was guessing/hoping that OO had done it better.06:38
Silktraderlifeless: Yes. I assume OO's format is also more portable than MS.06:39
SilktraderBut it still doesn't solve the searching issue ...06:39
SilktraderI should probably be looking for DMS.06:39
SilktraderDocument Management Systems ...06:39
SilktraderBut bzr is so simple and easy ...06:39
SilktraderSoftware like Alfresco and whatnot puts me off.06:40
codeslingerwell, good luck.  I gotta get back to my bzr slugfest.06:40
lifelessspiv: ping06:45
lifeless  File "/home/robertc/source/baz/search-results/bzrlib/smart/client.py", line 77, in call_with_body_bytes_expecting_body06:45
lifeless    request = self.get_smart_medium().get_request()06:45
lifeless  File "/home/robertc/source/baz/search-results/bzrlib/smart/client.py", line 33, in get_smart_medium06:45
lifeless    return self._shared_connection.connection06:45
lifelessAttributeError: 'FakeMedium' object has no attribute 'connection'06:45
lifelessand I'm seeing an error about read_streamed_body06:46
lifelessso I was pinging you about the fake medium error06:47
lifelesswhere is the voodoo to fit that in06:47
spivlifeless: See FakeClient06:48
lifelessthe second one comes from06:49
lifeless  File "/home/robertc/source/baz/search-results/bzrlib/repository.py", line 832, in insert_data_stream06:49
lifeless    for item_key, bytes in stream:06:49
lifeless  File "/home/robertc/source/baz/search-results/bzrlib/remote.py", line 996, in _deserialise_stream06:49
spivlifeless: I think you want to override call_with_body_bytes_expecting_body in that.06:49
lifeless    stream = protocol.read_streamed_body()06:49
lifelessAttributeError: 'SmartClientRequestProtocolOne' object has no attribute 'read_streamed_body'06:49
SilktraderWell fellows, thanks for the help. Have a good day, cheers.06:49
spivThe second error is correct, in that there is intentionally no read_streamed_body on SmartClientRequestProtocolOne.  It's implemented only on SmartClientRequestProtocolOne06:49
spivIt's implemented only on SmartClientRequestProtocol*Two*06:50
lifelesserr, ROTFL> L> L>06:50
spivA laugh with a stutter?06:51
lifelessso why am I getting the old protocol?06:51
spivYou'll have to demonstrate that one in person for me sometime ;)06:51
spivGood question.06:51
lifelesslaugh repeatedly tailing off a little slowly06:51
lifelessok, first one fixed06:52
spivCan you give me a little more context?06:52
lifelessI'm testing a modified streaming revisions pull06:52
lifelessthat I upload a body to06:52
lifelessthat contains start_keys\nstop_keys\ncount06:53
lifelessI'll defer this till tomorrow now, too many hours working :)06:57
spivlifeless: that's odd07:00
spivlifeless: I don't know why you'd get a ProtocolOne there07:00
lifelessuses One not Two07:01
lifelessis it safe to change that ?07:01
PengCool, with dirstate-tags, pulling with no new revisions only downloads the format files and last-revision.07:01
spivOh, huh.07:01
PengOh, and tags.07:01
PengWith bzr+http, it still makes 24 requests.07:02
spivlifeless: I guess so, it seems wrong that it's hard-coded either way in that class though.07:02
PengSame as when there is 1 new revision.07:02
spivlifeless: but it should at least be hard-coded consistently :)07:02
lifelessspiv: righto, well I'll change it in the new method I add07:02
lifelessspiv: and let you worry about consistency07:02
spivlifeless: sounds good :)07:03
lifelesswoo passes07:03
* lifeless runs a full suite and organises food07:03
PengOoh! I upgraded all of my local branches recently but forgot about my remote ones!07:07
PengErr, wait, I don't know.07:07
PengRight, I don't want to upgrade that branch.07:08
PengApparently on one project still using dirstate, some of my remote branches are dirstate and some are dirstate-tags.07:08
PengI guess it depends on whether they were created before or after I upgraded my local stuff to packs.07:09
abentleybob2: revision library?  For shame!07:16
poolieok, out for a bit07:19
pooliegood night, abentley, or morning07:19
abentleypoolie: good night07:20
dysingerWhat does --rich-root really do ?  the help doesn't really explain it and the online manual doesn't mention it.07:43
lifelessit adds a versioned / to the disk format07:44
lifelesswhich is needed to handle svn branches as they are made via copies07:44
dysingerok don't quite get that but ok07:45
lifelessit will eventually be the default format07:45
dysingerthe manual just says bzr init-repo X-repo (without the rich-root).07:45
dysingerok cause when I do a branch from a svn repo it does the rich-root by default - I can see it in the info07:46
dysingerIs the --no-trees usually used with checkout ?  And is checkout mostly used with the centralized workflow only?07:47
dysingerthat seems to be the pattern in the examples in the manual07:47
fullermddysinger: It Depends(tm)   :)07:48
lifelesscheckout is most often a tool for centralised workflows07:49
dysingerI am just trying to figure out the best setup for working with a team that mostly uses svn.  I could init-repo and "checkout" the remote svn repo and then make branches off of that for work.  Or I could "branch" the svn repo and then make branches off of that for work.07:49
lifeless--no-trees in init-repo is used when you expect to have your working areas elsewhere yes07:50
dysingerlifeless gotcha07:50
lifelessdysinger: so there are two dimensions here07:50
lifeless1) init-repo or not07:50
lifeless2) checkouts or branches07:50
fullermdWell, you _can_ do it either way, or probably a dozen others.  If it were me, *I* would make a checkout of the svn branch, then branch off that.07:50
dysingerOK so --no-trees would be like git clone --bare07:50
dysingerIt's for history only then.07:50
dysingerno work07:50
lifelessinit-repo is *simply* for sharing .bzr/repository amongst many branches07:50
fullermdThat way I could use that checkout just like it were a svn checkout; update, commit, etc.07:51
lifelessthats all07:51
dysingercheckout would be if I wanted a tracking branch07:51
fullermdAnd it wouldn't let me commit and diverge from upstream.07:51
lifelessso you can init-repo, then branch into the repo, and make branches from that etc07:51
dysingerwhere commits are immediate.07:51
fullermdThen I could merge ; commit into it when I wanted to land my other branches.07:51
lifelessor you can init-repo, and use checkouts, its all reasonable07:51
fullermd(or just edit ; commit directly in it if I just wanted to make one rev right on trunk, like if I were just using svn itself)07:51
dysingerok I am getting it.07:52
fullermdRight.  That checkout would then explicitly always be "whatever's in svn [mod getting behind and having to 'update' of course]"07:52
dysingerThere's some parallels to git (and some to svn)07:52
lifelessrule of thumb is 'if your history is large, or you will have many branches, you should use init-repo'07:52
dysingerWhat is --rich-root-pack all about?07:54
dysingerDoes it make a diff vs --rich-root  really ?07:54
fullermd--rich-root is a variant of knits (the older repo format).  --rich-root-pack is a variant of packs (the newer repo format)07:55
dysingershould I go with the newer one? Is that where everything is headed ?  I read how you guys are using packs to speed up transfers.07:56
ubotuNew bug: #183704 in bzr "bzr clean-tree should not remove .shelve directory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18370407:56
fullermdWell, packs ARE intended to replace knits.  It's the direction we're going.  There are some reasons to use knits; compatibility with older versions of bzr, for instance.07:56
fullermdBut lacking those reasons, you probably want packs.07:56
dysingerok I have no other bzr interaction on my project07:57
dysinger(no older versions)07:57
fullermdpacks are the default now, if you just 'bzr init'.07:57
dysingeroh really07:57
dysingerso I could just bzr init-repo myrepo ?07:58
fullermdYeah, as of 1.0 [I think].  They were introduced on 0.92.07:58
fullermdWell, not if you want to use bzr-svn   ;)07:58
fullermdIt needs the rich-root variant.07:58
fullermd(which isn't default)07:58
dysingeroh ok so if I want to branch off of svn I MUST use the knits format07:58
fullermdNo, you need to use a rich-root capable format.  There's one of those for knits AND one for packs.07:59
fullermd--rich-root is the knit version; --rich-root-pack is the pack version.07:59
fullermdUnless you know a reason you want to go knit, you probably want the pack.07:59
fullermd(if the choice turns out to be wrong later, there are ways to convert yourself down, so it's not a lock-in decision)08:00
fullermdrich-root is, though, which is the main reason it's not default; you can convert data from packs into knits, (or from rich-packs into rich-knits), but you can't convert from rich to non-rich.08:00
dysingerso just so I am understanding - in order to use svn I must use a rich _variant_ which is either rich-root or rich-root-pack - either one.  Packs are the default bet are not rich right?08:03
dysingerso I could bzr init-repo --rich-root-pack myrepo and the branch svn off into it08:04
dysingerok thanks for your help08:05
dysingerI am getting it.08:05
dysingerI promise I'll help others once I do08:05
lifelessyou want rich-root-pack08:05
dysingersomeone told be just rich-root earlier08:06
dysingerbut I want to go with the newest format08:06
dysingerif I have no legacy to deal with08:06
lifelessyeah I forgot there were two variants08:06
fullermdYeah, that might just be a finger-o; thinking 'rich root' and forgetting to append the pack.08:06
dysingercan you branch off of a  checkout ?08:07
dysingerI could see an advantage of checkout for svn and the branch off of that for work.08:08
dysingerI don't know - maybe not.08:08
fullermdI'd do it that way.08:08
fullermdThat way the thing that directly touches svn acts like an svn client would; helps reduce impedance mismatches.08:08
dysingerEspecially for me - I wouldn't use that checkout for anything other than tracking the remote branch08:09
dysingerand merging into my topic branches08:09
fullermdReally, I also work that way on multi-dev bzr projects; there's a shared trunk that I checkout.  I do trivial things directly on trunk, just like I did with CVS.  And branch off that for more involved things.08:09
dysingerIf make a branch and then want to push back to the parent - what's the best way to do that08:15
dysingerI can re-specify the parent in the push command but that seems a bit redundant08:15
fullermdWell, with this toplogy you wouldn't push back; you'd merge your topic branch _into_ the checkout, then commit that merge (and the commit in the checkout goes upstream)08:16
dysingerso it's done with merges08:16
fullermdSorta a hierarchial setup, rather than the mesh-like setup of more 'fully distributed' workflows.08:16
fullermdWell, you _can_ do it with pushes.  But that gets you back to impedance mismatches with svn, and (IMAO, anyway) is more likely to lead to confusion.08:17
dysingerdon't want to do that08:18
dysingerI'll just keep it straight checkout and merge/commit into it.08:18
dysingerfrom my branches.08:18
fullermdYeah.  This way you have the svn side, which acts like svn.  You have your bzr side, where you do whatever you want, bzr-style.  And all interaction between them funnels through your bzr-svn checkout.08:18
fullermdSeems cleaner to me  [note, though, that I've never used bzr-svn, so this is all "how it fits in my head" and from reading about other people using it]08:19
dysingerand if I want I can take one my branches and 'push' it off to a 3rd machine where I can share it with team mates distributed-style.08:19
fullermdRight.  No problemo.  You can get all wild and wooly on the bzr side.08:20
dysingerthat's how I did all this with git so it makes sense08:20
dysingerI really like how bzr doesn't treat svn like a side-car-add-on08:21
dysingerIt's just a transport/storage plugin08:21
dysingergit-svn is a one-off-hack08:21
fullermdThat's because we don't trust svn way off to the side, where we can't smack it   ;)08:21
dysingerand the commands are different than the normal git flo08:22
dysingerIt's sucky08:22
dysinger(but fast)08:22
dysingerI was in a svn working directory and I accedentally typed bzr st08:23
dysingerand it told me the status08:23
dysingerI was like ???08:24
dysingerso then I commit with bzr too and it worked !?08:24
dysingerthat's too transparent08:24
dysingerbzr log worked - it was like it was a bzr repo08:25
dysingerthen I was looking at bzr init-repo help08:25
dysingerand it has --subversion in it08:25
dysingerso bzr-svn is pretty integrated.08:25
sabdflif you have a branch, with a few files added, and you want to split that into two branches which add different sets of files, can you do that easily with bzr?08:26
* dysinger is a noob08:26
fullermdsabdfl: Mmm.  I think you'd have to sort of the files manually.  Maybe "branch ; merge --uncommitted", the rm the right files on each side?08:26
dysingerI imagine you could always make two branches from the one08:27
dysingerand just prune away until you had it like you like08:27
sabdflfullermd: i'm worried that rm'ing the files on each side would mean the whole lot get rm'd when these land in trunk08:27
fullermdWell, I'm reading you as "bzr add'd but not committed".08:27
fullermdIf they're committed files you want to rm, then yeah, that would happen.08:28
dysingersince bzr doesn't auto-commit merges though08:28
fullermdIn that case, I think you'd have to backtrack to before they were added, and recreate history from that point onward in two different branches.08:28
dysingeryou could merge the two branches back in08:28
dysingerbut revert the removes08:28
dysingerand then commit08:29
fullermdWell, or that.  And if you edit the files in the branch you don't delete them in, it'll conflict and you can resolve it from there.08:29
fullermdThat means adding to your work at merge-time.  I guess which is Right depends on how long they'll be unlanded, and how much history you'd have to rewind, and yada yada.08:29
* igc dinner09:01
lifelesssabdfl: split the branch into two, delete on each side. then merge each side to the other with the following recipe:09:30
lifelessbzr OTHER; revert .; commit -m 'sync with split branch'09:30
lifelessthe . is important09:31
lifelessthen you'll have two branches which think they are mutually merged (but aren't), so merging with trunk will do the right thing (well, you can test this, its late, but my head says this will work)09:31
lifelessperhaps test locally first; merging both serially to a copy of trunk :)09:32
sabdfllifeless: bummer, i started doing this the hard way, and will just finish09:49
sabdflbut have a note of the recipe and will try it next time09:49
rjekGah!  I hate Mac OS X.10:05
rjekI can't install bzr on it from MacPorts, because it can't fetch paramiko from any of the places it knows about.10:06
* rjek wonders why Fink went out of fashion.10:06
rjekSo.  Is bzr available for Mac OS X 10.4 using a package management system that actually works? :)11:15
=== doko_ is now known as doko
dysingerrjek:  I just posted some instructions on the bzr-svn page about 6 hours ago which includes bzr install11:48
dysingerwithout macports or fink11:48
dysingerbtw I think the #bzr channel peoples are soooo... awesome11:49
dysingerand the bzr developers11:49
dysingerit worsk11:49
Kamping_Kaiseris the correct capitalisation Bzr bzr or BZR?11:49
dysingerI think it's actually bZr11:50
=== mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch
datoKamping_Kaiser: the correct capitalization of the software is Bazaar, and the correct capitalization of the binary is bzr11:55
datoif you'd like to use bzr to mean "Bazaar", then, well, write "bzr" :-)11:55
Kamping_Kaiserdato, so its Bazaar? (not Bazaar-ng or any of the short versions?)11:56
=== asac_ is now known as asac
datoKamping_Kaiser: yeah, Bazaar, but many people use bzr as well. Like Subversion/svn or Mercurial/hg11:57
Kamping_Kaiserdato, thanks for that11:58
datoyou're welcome11:58
rjekdysinger: Sounds fun.  URL?12:03
rjekdysinger: Which version is Leopard?12:12
rjekI have 10.412:12
dysinger10.5 is leopard but it should work all the same IMO12:12
rjekDoes 10.4 ship with a version of Python that isn't too ancient?12:13
dysingerI don't know that for a fact though12:13
rjek(which I had assumed is the reason bzr is packaged more simply for 10.5 than for 10.4)12:13
dysingeropen a terminal12:13
rjekWhat is this easy_install thing, too?12:13
rjekI have Python 2.3.5, btw.12:14
rjekdysinger: It appears to be doing something \o/12:19
rjekAlthough it appears to be having the same difficulty as MacPorts: it can't reach www.log.net to download paramiko.12:20
dysingerShould upgrade to 10.5 then! :)12:21
rjekThis Mac's lucky I've not thrown it out of the window.12:21
rjekI *hate* Mac OS.12:21
dysingerThen erase it and install something better12:22
rjekNot an option, given the entire point of the exercise it to ensure something works under Mac OS :)12:22
rjekI'd be furious if I actually paid for this Mac.12:22
dysingerSomething does work12:23
dysingerAs I experienced today12:23
dysingerWhat is your pref?12:23
rjekNo, I mean I'm making sure a piece of our software's portable to it.12:23
dysingerIs the hardware garbage?  That's rarely the case12:23
rjekI hate Apple hardware almost as much as I hate their OS.12:24
dysingerOh are you a M$fanboy?12:24
dysingerThen BSD ? Linux?12:24
rjekBut I can tolerate Windows for longer periods than I can Mac OS: it still ultimately annoys me.12:24
rjekAll OSes annoy me: Mac OS is just top of the pile.12:24
rjekdysinger: My development environment is Linux.  Where I build Linux and Windows versions of stuff.  Mac OS stuff I have to do self-hosted given there's no good toolchain like MinGW for Linux yet.12:25
dysingerWinblows is the top of my shit pile.  That's an absolute crap-pile.12:26
dysingerrjex "I hate Apple hardware almost as much as I hate their OS."  Wow12:27
dysingerWhat on this green earth do you actually like?12:28
rjekI like my Thinkpad.12:29
rjekIt's built like a tank, doesn't have keylegends that wear off if you look at them too much, has three mouse buttons, and wasn't over-priced.12:30
dysingerWith what freedos?12:30
rjekErm.  Ubuntu as it happens, but you've left now.12:31
fullermdI think freenode logs you off if you say 'freedos'.12:32
rjekfullermd: Didn't kick you off. :)12:33
fullermdI'm special.  My mother always told me so.12:33
* rjek grins.12:33
* rjek checks out the source on Linux box, burns it onto a CD-R, and shoves it in the Mac that way.12:34
fullermdDo regular CD-R's work in a Mac, or do you have to get special multi-colored aerodynamic CD-R's?12:35
rjekCrap, I hadn't thought of that.12:35
rjekIt might spit it out in disgust for being a cheap Tesco CD-R.12:35
=== mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell
=== bigdo1 is now known as bigdog
codeslingerhi, anybody awake?14:33
matkorcodeslinger: Yes, but I most likely will not be much help ;)14:33
datoabentley: I'm sorry for the format flags mess14:34
abentleyNo worries.14:34
codeslingerGreat!!!    question:  I don't see this in the manual.  is the physical location of a branch fixed or can I arbitrarily move it to another location?14:34
abentleyI could have read it more carefully, too.14:34
abentleycodeslinger: You can move it anywhere you like, even mirror it to another machine.14:35
abentleyIf you a shared repository, you have to keep the branch inside the shared repository.14:36
matkorabentley: Even outside shared repository ?14:36
abentleymatkor: ^^^14:36
codeslingerwhat if I move the repository too.  basically I just want to know about disk reorg and moving the entire structure, does it have any fixed path components?14:37
abentleycodeslinger: If you remove the repository too, that's fine.14:38
codeslingergood. thanks.14:38
abentleyMany commands remember the location you ran it against last, e.g. "pull".  Those locations tend to be fixed locations.14:39
codeslingerbind ????14:40
abentleyYes, I believe bind is one of those.14:40
codeslingerer, let me be clear.  can I fix that path with bind?14:40
abentleyIf you have a checkout, and you move the branch you're bound to, you can just do 'bind'.14:41
brilliantnutabentley: Actually, I think this is one of the problems that I'm facing.. If I have a branch or checkout bound to a shared repository. If the shared repository is no longer accessible, I can't unbind it...14:41
abentleySimilarly, you can fix pull with pull --remember.14:41
brilliantnutneither was I able to bind to a different location..14:41
abentleybrilliantnut: Try switch --force then, but file a bug report please.14:42
abentleyBut you mean "If I have a branch bound to *a branch in a shared repository*...", right?14:43
abentleyBranches aren't "bound" to repositories themselves.14:43
radixwhy does 'unbind' even bother doing anything with the remote branch instead of just removing the association locally, out of curiosity?14:45
brilliantnutabentley: I did in fact mean a branch in a shared repository.14:46
brilliantnutatleast, I was facing that behaviour with 1.1rc1... I haven't had an opportunity to check since 1.1 ... To be honest, I thought it was expected behaviour..14:46
abentleyRight, so if you have a heavyweight checkout of that branch, and you delete that checkout, "unbind" should work.  If it doesn't, it's a bug.14:46
abentleyScratch that.14:47
brilliantnutI did have a heavyweight checkout... but what do you mean by delete that checkout?14:47
abentleyIf you have a heavyweight checkout of that branch, and you delete that branch, "unbind" should work.  If it doesn't, it's a bug.14:47
abentleybrilliantnut: thinko14:47
brilliantnutno, what if the repository isn't accessible any longer.14:47
abentleyThe repository for the branch?14:47
brilliantnutabentley: need to take a call, brb14:48
abentleyMost of the information provided through a branch is stored in the repository, not the branch.14:48
abentleyEverything you commit goes into the repository, not the branch.14:48
abentleyThe branch is just a pointer to the data you committed.14:48
abentleySo if there's no repository for a branch, it cannot function.14:49
codeslingerI have a project with multiple (mostly) independant parts.  there is a client program and a public website and then the private website after you login and then the admin web site etc.  some fo the php programs are shared between all of the apps. some are only shared between the web apps.  but most files are not shared at all.  what would be the ~best~ way to organize this?15:00
codeslinger"if there is no repository for a branch it connot function"   but what if it's a heavyweight checkout?  doesn't the branch contain it's own copy of the repository?15:03
=== mw|out is now known as mw
brilliantnutabentley: back. Here's the situation that I was facing:15:07
brilliantnutI have a central repository, and many branches on the central repository (specifically including a branch called HEAD)15:07
brilliantnutI have a heavy checkout of HEAD on local15:07
brilliantnutcommits, pulls, pushes, merges etc. work fine.15:08
brilliantnutnow the repository, (along with all the branches) is down.15:08
brilliantnutlets say that the location has been changed.15:08
abentleycodeslinger: If the heavyweight checkout is created inside a shared repository, it will store data in the shared repository.15:09
brilliantnutat this point, I want to bind the checkout that I have to the new location..15:09
abentleybrilliantnut: So bind NEWLOCATION ought to work.15:11
abentleyNo need to unbind.15:12
abentleyBut switch --force NEWLOCATION should also work.15:12
brilliantnuthmm. I didn't try --force15:17
abentleySwitch ideally would not require force.15:17
abentleyAnd it should at least suggest it on NotBranchError15:17
abentleySomething I'd like to fix, but I've got a big queue right now...15:18
codeslingerthanks for all the help.   any suggestions on best practices for dealing with the situation of shared files between different projects?  I understand the subtrees are NYI15:24
codeslingerError 1 Operation not permitted --  I have a respoitory on a server and a local branch.  the server-side was created initially by doing a push of a local branch.  what I did is to set up a conflict with another copy of the branch and then resolve that conflict and commit the changes. then I did a merge.   Now when I do a push -- which used to work -- I get the Error.   any odeas what I am doing wrong?15:33
codeslingerabentley are you still there?15:34
rjekHe's abended!15:35
abentleycodeslinger: Not off the top of my head.  Sounds like a permissions problem on the server.15:36
abentleyYou can get a full traceback by doing "push -Derror"15:37
abentleyrjek: Unfortunately, I can't just idle in IRC.15:38
abentleyI have work to do.15:39
codeslingerok, fine, thanks, I understand....    I dont think it liked that I changed the path though....   I went back to the orgianl path and now I get  bzr: ERROR: Generic path error:  'zzzzz.fetch': Failure: unable to rename '../packs/zzzz.pack'15:41
fullermdSounds permission-y to me.15:46
codeslingerIm logged in as root....15:48
codeslingerseems like bzr is pretty buggy.  I see plenty of high priority bugs that are pretty old.  does anybody have opinions about the actualy usability/stability of bzr.   I mean the design is pretty darn terrific, I thinks its what Ive been looking for.  bug I am concerned about the apparent level of bugginess.  and now I am just running some simple use scenarios and appear to have been hit by a substantial problem.15:51
matkorI use bzr since few month and never meet bug in it ... depends prolly what you are doing ...15:54
codeslingerhi fullermd!  are you the one who wrote the "rant" about BSD vs Linux?   I checked out your site.15:54
codeslingermatkor -- that is good to know.  what is your typical use scenario?   I've been at it for basically one day and already hit two problems.15:56
fullermdOh, lord, and here I thought it was safe to step outside again...15:57
datojelmer: regarding bug #180128, did I do wrong by cp'ing with svn? is there another way of doing the same with bzr-svn alone, in a way that the created branch is a cp, and I can push new changesets to it?15:58
ubotuLaunchpad bug 180128 in bzr-svn "Cannot push to a branch `svn cp'ied`" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18012815:58
matkorcodeslinger: what is typical use of bzr -  developing software in many places and many branches ;)15:58
fullermdI've been using bzr for...  2 years and change.  I've hit a number of bugs in that time, but pretty much all of the bug ones have since been fixed.15:58
codeslingerfullermd - you make some very good points about linux, it's exactly why I switched to gentoo.  and now trying out sabayon.15:59
fullermdI should go through that thing sometime and do some cleaning and updating.16:01
fullermdOf course, that's a subset of needing to do the same on, like, my whole webpage.16:01
codeslingerI'm am trying to figure out what I can do and should avoid with bzr.  I just tried a use scenario of creating a conflict and resolving it and somehow it is now blowing up in my face.  it may be related to the fact that I changed the location of the server path due to another bug in which the automatic password conf file is not working.16:01
codeslingerfullermd -- it was a good read.16:04
fullermdI was happy with how it turned out.16:04
codeslingerfullermd -- the thing is, that "Aunt Betsey" is not going to be willing to compile code from scratch.  she just wants something that works out of the box.16:09
awilkinscodeslinger: I keep thinking about the potential for gentoo to benefit enormously from a hug distributed P2P compile system16:13
awilkinscodeslinger: FOr most of the common hardware setups and use flag combos, there must already be binaries out there.16:14
codeslingeryeah, I set up distcc locally but iy was a pain to get working.  spent spent was greater than time saved.16:15
awilkinsI don't update as much as I used to, my only gentoo box is a MythTV box now16:16
awilkinsI used gentoo because at the time it was the only distro I could get the hardware working on ; not least because it was the easiest to get the mm-sources kernel working on16:16
codeslinger"spent spent" === "time spent"16:17
awilkinsBut I found gentoo to be a great teaching distro - it really makes you learn a lot about Linux16:17
codeslingeryes, gentoo seems to combine best of most worlds.  but the "learning curve" was pretty darn steep.  so far I am liking sabayon, it's gentoo packaged to "just work" out of the box.16:19
codeslingeronce I finally tamed the beast, I put gentoo on all of my servers.  debian and other distros drove me nuts with their dependancy hell.16:20
awilkinsAgreed, not having to install GTK to get the ncurses version of BitTorrent is very useful16:21
awilkinsThis particular box doesn't even run a desktop, just MythTV in a bare X server16:22
codeslingerwe are way off topic but I guess nobody is objecting....   I have seen some references in the gentoo docs to the pre-compiled binararies.  but at a quick glance it looks pretty restrictive.  so I have not pursued it. sound like you have been using it,  what is your impression?16:27
awilkinscodeslinger: No, I don't use precompiled binaries, I still build from source, but not often16:31
awilkinsFOr MythTV I still build from source because the ebuilds lag behind the trunk so much16:32
awilkinsBut I even do that less often as it gets more stable. I'd love a build that didn't use MySQL though, that thing is a piece of trash (doesn't survive a BRS reset very well)16:33
codeslingerah, okay.   lag... yes, but over-all pretty impressive, consider php for instance. they had the updated ebuild in about 3 days.16:33
awilkinsI wouldn't notice ; I don't even have a cron job running emerge --sync16:34
codeslingeri've found mysql to be pretty solid. perhaps the cause is elsewhere.16:34
awilkinscodeslinger: It's probably because the box was overheating and shutting down non-gracefully16:34
awilkinsThis was only happening in long transcoding jobs... I've underclocked it since and it's stable even transcoding 24/7 for 3 days straight.16:35
awilkinsI'd swap the CPU for a mobile variant but the motherboard is a budget model and has no VCORE support.16:36
awilkinsI'm happy with it though, £43 for onboard graphics with TV-out16:37
codeslingeroh I'd never use a cron job for that.   it's jsut that I happened to be looking for the php upgrade and expected to have to install it from scratch and lo there it was already  to go.  that was one of the things that decided me to switch the servers to gentoo16:37
awilkinsThey're probably a lot snappier on core packages16:37
codeslingerif you've got hardware issues it is totally unfair to blame mysql for corruption.16:37
awilkinsIt's not exactly ACID though, is it?16:38
codeslingerI've got tables with a million plus records and mysql handled it without a hiccup.  impressed the heck out of me.16:38
awilkinsI suppose I'm being a little unfair... it got really annoying for a while though, having to repair the tables every couple of days16:40
awilkinsI'm more used to RDBMs like MSSQL and MySQL feels a little toy-like in comparison.16:40
radixa database _should_ be able to handle power cutoff16:40
awilkinsradix: My point ; if the same thing happened to MSSQL for example, it would recover fine because the transaction log would be played back when it recovered.16:41
awilkinsAFAIK, MySQL doesn't _have_ a transaction log16:41
LeoNerdMySQL doesn't usually have transactions, period16:42
fullermdOh, heck, am I busy working through Bash MySQL day?  Crap.16:42
awilkinsOn the other hand, it's not exactly "enterprise" deployment, being a mythtv box. SQLite managed to be ACID though ; I'd be interested to see how easy it was to port MythTV to use that instead.16:42
LeoNerdSQLite is nice.. it lacks a lot of abilities but it's very upfront about that. "Here's what we do, here's what we don't."16:43
codeslingermysql != toy  it's being used by some pretty big players such as the census buru and the airline reservation system.  if you think it toy because of minimal interface then try mysqladmin it is good.16:44
awilkinsIn any case, I've not had to repair the tables since I underclocked the CPU, so hooray.16:45
LeoNerdEr.. no... I think MySQL is a toy because of all the crazy things it does16:45
awilkinscodeslinger: I'm happy enough with SQLYog on windows and phpmyadmin16:45
codeslingertransactiosn and logs are options that you turn on when desired.16:45
LeoNerdHave you seen such things as the example SELECT * FROM table WHERE col IS NULL AND col IS NOT NULL;  ?16:45
LeoNerdIt returns a row :)16:45
fullermdI prefer the high-quality data validation, myself.16:46
fullermd's all way the heck off the #bzr path, though.16:46
* awilkins likes bzr but hasn't really tried shared repositories yet16:46
codeslingeryup, so I am going to say bye now.  see you around, good chating.16:47
awilkinsAm I rght in thinking that if I wan't proper merge tracking converting over a old CVS repository I;m going to have to do it myself?16:49
fullermdJust reading that question gives me the twitches...16:54
awilkinsIt's worse, it's not even a real CVS repository, it's MKS16:56
awilkinsI've already patched rcstools not to choke and die on the MKS RCS format though16:56
awilkinsMKS does at least have some notion of atomic commits16:56
awilkinsBut it doesn't track merges and even if it did, the merges are being done here by some horrible old Java16:58
awilkins(MKS itself is some horrible old Java too)16:58
awilkinsThis stuff branches by copying individual files into their own "change package" folder and working on them there16:59
awilkinsI'm supposed to be developing this on the back of SVN but after a few days trying bzr I'm rather enamoured of it's speed and merge support17:00
awilkinsI'm fairly convinced that even if the final product is svn-driven, just using bzr for development and testing is going to increase my productivity enormously17:00
fullermdWell, I ended up using bzr because I figured svn was mature enough to look at replacing CVS with, then looked at it closely.  So using bzr instead of svn sounds perfectly reasonable to me   :)17:07
awilkinsThe only problem is that the Eclipse plugin is not ... mature17:09
awilkinsWhich is a real stumbler for the automation that my users expect. *sigh*17:10
fullermdAh, well, I'm waiting to eclipse itself to mature so that it looks more like vi   ;>17:10
awilkinsIsn't there a vim editor plugin for Eclipse?17:11
awilkinsfullermd: Are you an MD or is that something else?17:11
fullermdOh, no, it's initials.17:12
* awilkins does healthcare IT17:13
fullermdFirst account I had used last name and initials as the naming scheme, and it's only been a millennium since then; too little time to get aroudn to changing it.17:13
* fullermd doesn't, and is glad of it.17:15
krishhi, in bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~timepass/timepass/timepass-devel18:06
krish~timepass is project name18:07
krishwhat is the next timepass for?18:07
krishor is ~timepass the name of the team18:07
datokrish: yes, the team18:09
krishthen the next timepass is for?18:10
krishtimepass-devel is my branch18:10
krishwhat does the timepass between these two mean?18:11
datothe name of the project18:11
dato(to which the branch belongs to)18:11
krishoo.  so i have to use     registrantofbranch/projectname/branchname always18:11
krishthks dato. :)  im new to bzr and its the first versioning system i m using. todays my first day. thks a lot18:13
datoyou're welcome18:13
LeoNerdIt's not a bzr thing - bzr doesn't care.. that's just a file path18:13
datokrish: you have to use "registrantofbranch/projectname/branchname" for *launchpad.net*18:13
LeoNerdIt might have some significance to the launchpad system in particular... but... bzr cares not18:13
krishoh ok18:14
krishshall remember that :)18:14
ubotuNew bug: #183831 in bzr "Internal error with soft link" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18383118:25
mimir_hey, i've got a question18:56
mimir_i've done a bzr push to a sftp URL18:56
mimir_and i only have the files "visible" at that location after i do a bzr update on the server18:57
mimir_is there a way so that on push the repo on the sftp location will update?18:57
radixmimir_: https://edge.launchpad.net/bzr-push-and-update18:58
datomimir_: not over sftp, but if you install bzr on the remote end, you can use bzr+ssh, plus the link radix gave you18:58
mimir_thanks a lot. that's what i was looking for18:59
radixoops. I guess that plugin is ssh only18:59
mimir_i have ssh, no prob there...18:59
radixalthough probably that works in the majority of cases where you have sftp access :)18:59
radixit's the requirement of bzr on the server that's the strictest requirement19:00
mimir_i'm installing the plugin right now19:01
krishradix: do i need that plugin to work on launchpad too?19:09
radixkrish: no, not at all19:09
radixthe plugin doesn't really make sense with launchpad, you don't need working trees on the server19:09
krishhmm ok19:10
mimir_question... is there a way now to alias bzr push to execut bzr push-and-update?19:23
mimir_i'm using BzrEclipse19:23
mimir_and it only has bzr push...19:24
krishdoesnt bzr has a gtk frontend?19:24
krishi m new to this.19:24
brilliantnutkrish: bzr-gtk19:24
krishbrilliantnut: i was suggesting mimir_19:24
krishbrilliantnut: may be u can help him out. i just read that bzr has a gtk frontend19:25
krishbrilliantnut: i dont even know how it looks :P19:25
datomimir_: mmm. push-and-update now is smart, and makes "push" alone itself update the remote tree, *iff* there is one19:27
datomimir_: so you just need to log to the remote computer once and create the tree there. you create the tree with 'bzr checkout .'19:28
mimir_dato, here is how i work: 1. create on the remote server the repo (bzr init, bzr add, bzr commit -m "initial import"). then on local machine i do a bzr branch sftp://URLHERE19:29
mimir_dato, then i work on the local branch, i do commits etc, until i'm ready to make a push back to the remote server..19:29
mimir_dato, so i want now that on push the remote does bzr update... what is the plugin mentioned doing, right?19:30
datomimir_: yes, it will do that, as long as you push over bzr+ssh and not over sftp19:31
mimir_ah... so on push i neet to do bzr push bzr+ssh://someurl ?19:31
mimir_dato, cool, testing it now..19:32
mimir_dato, i think i'm doing smthing wrong...19:44
mimir_dato,  bzr push bzr+ssh://science@myscienceisbetter.info/home/science/public_html/basilisk/19:44
mimir_science@myscienceisbetter.info's password:19:44
mimir_This transport does not update the working tree of: bzr+ssh://URL. See 'bzr help working-trees' for more information.19:44
mimir_No new revisions to push.19:44
mimir_ah... 1 sec..19:45
mimir_dato, nope... i still need to do bzr update on server...19:48
mimir_am i missing something?19:48
dysingerThanks for your help yesterday gang.  I am totally on bzr/svn now.19:48
beunomimir_, I use a cron job which runs bzr update due to permission problemas. AFAIK, bzr+ssh doesn't update the working tree, just the push-and-update plugin19:49
datomimir_: if you see the "This transport does not update..." warning, something's gone wrong. do you see push-and-update listed if you run `bzr plugins`? (Also, the directory under plugins should be named push_and_update, it can't be push-and-update)19:50
mimir_let me check..19:50
krishbye all19:51
beunomimir_, you have to do:  bzr push-and-update bzr+ssh://science@myscienceisbetter.info/home/science/public_html/basilisk/19:54
datobeuno: nope19:54
mimir_dato, thanks m8, it works now19:54
datobeuno: check the commit log19:54
mimir_dato, there was a problem with my push-and-update install19:54
datomimir_: very well19:54
beunodato, really?  aaaah, didn't know a new version was out19:54
* beuno learns something new19:55
mimir_i just did bzr push-and-update and it automaticaly the sftp:// path19:55
mimir_and it did the job quite well :)19:55
* mimir_ thanks dato and radix for pointing the right path :)19:56
datoyou're welcome19:56
beunothat's odd, I was subscribed to the repo en launchpad, but I didn't get any notifications19:57
jelmeryay, the 20th bzr-svn bug related to unicode \o/20:00
james_whi jelmer20:00
james_whi dato20:00
datohey, james_w. long time no see, I think?20:00
jelmerhey James20:00
jelmer'evening Adeodato20:01
james_wdato: yeah, hardware troubles. All sorted now, so I should be back with the code soon.20:01
datojames_w: great20:01
rjekjelmer: On the other side, my experience with bzr-svn was almost flawless apart from my misunderstanding of what the branch file thingy was for :)20:01
datojelmer: I'm going home now. I'll try to take a look at -pqm when I arrive.20:01
jelmerdato: Cool, thanks20:02
=== mw is now known as mw|food
slestakcan i bounce some bzr ideas off the room20:15
slestaki am trying to plan a vcs system for my workgroup20:15
slestakwe have a shared codebae that is 75% plain text files, and 25% within binary files (more on that in a sec)20:16
slestakits the 25% that is an issue.  the 4gl we use stores the file definitions and screen definitions withing the header of the actual db datafile.20:17
slestaki think i am capable of coming up with a fuse fs kindof like sshfs that would allow regular fs-like access to thes contents of the binary files.20:18
slestakhas anyone dealt with a simialr setup, versioning selected contents of a vinary file, not teh whole bin file.20:19
rjekThe only occation I found myself needing fine-grained revision history over binary blobs I wrote a tool to convert the binary blobs to and from a textual format, and installed a pre-commit hook.20:19
slestakthats kindonf what i am thinking, a wrapper that will extrac the records I need, and put tehm back safely.20:20
slestaki was considering a fs-like interface so it will be familiar and transparent to any 3rd party tools that deal with bzr20:21
rjekThere's no need for a FUSE hack really.  The pre-commit hook idea is also more portable in case you want to check in or out on a non-Linux box.20:21
Manfrewhat is the command to generate a diff of 2 revisions?20:28
slestakrjek: thanks :)20:29
luksManfre: bzr diff -r R1:R220:29
luksthat's svn :)20:29
luksbzr diff -r R1...R220:29
luksactually it's bzr diff -r R1..R220:30
luksI should probably really try to not help anybody today :)20:30
Manfredoes bzr support the auto replace variables? e.g. $LastChangedRevision:20:41
Manfreif so, can some one link me to a doc that explains it20:41
luksthe usual trick for build scripts is `bzr version-info`20:42
rjekit's a shame you can't really do that (AFAICT) from bzr export.20:43
=== mw|food is now known as mw
dysingerIs there a way to get bzr-svn to remember your password like git-svn or just plain svn?  It's driving me nuts having to enter it all the time.20:55
luksuse svn to remember the password20:56
jelmerdysinger: what transport are you using?20:56
luksthen bzr-svn will use the saved password20:56
dysingerwhen I branched I put https://username:password@host/url20:56
dysingerbut now I have to enter my password everytime.20:57
dysingerwhen update/pull etc.20:57
dysingerThat brings up another question.  A guy in here last night recommended that I checkout from svn instead of branch - said there was less chance for an impedance mismatch with svn.  Is that true Jelmer ?20:58
* fullermd <---- guy20:58
dysingerhey fullermd20:58
dysingerI just wanted to check with 'the man'20:59
fullermdI _wish_ it were last night.  It's still "earlier today" for me   :|20:59
=== brilliantnu1 is now known as brilliantnut
dysingerheh I am GMT-1020:59
dysingerin the center of the ocean20:59
fullermdWell, if you're going to be becalmed, you might as well have a 'net connection.20:59
jelmerdysinger: can you rephrase that last bit without using "impedance"?21:00
* jelmer is not a native speaker, the only way I know impedance is related to electricity21:00
fullermdWell, that's the context I draw it from too   :]21:00
dysingerfullermd said that using checkout for an svn remote repo was better and there was less chance for problems21:00
dysingerI found that at least it seems to me checkout is better for svn because "push" to svn on a branch I made the 1st time was painfully slow.21:01
fullermdWell, that's not a checkout/push difference; that's some cache or other that had to fill.21:02
dysingerI just want to make sure I am doing "the right thing" before I settle in on a pattern of work.21:02
jelmerdysinger: Checkouts will be slow the first time as well21:02
dysingeryes checkout vs branch is about the same21:02
jelmerdysinger: checkouts are basically branches that push on commit21:02
jelmerdysinger: They're not necessarily better than pushing, but they may match your workflow better21:03
fullermdjelmer: My operative theory is that using the checkout to interface to svn via merging in work and committing (vs. merging from svn and pushing) is interfacing to svn how svn expects to be interfaced to, and so is less likely to confuse it or you (or both).21:03
fullermd(i.e., matched impedances, no reflections)21:04
dysingerWhat I am hearing is that branch vs checkout makes no difference to the bzr-svn plugin -but checkout matches svn workflow better21:04
AnMasterchangelog for 1.1?21:04
jelmerfullermd,dysinger: yep, that makes sense21:04
dysingerfullermd you used the word impedance again :)21:04
* fullermd nods.21:04
fullermdWell, I considered using admittance instead   ;)21:04
* jelmer has a some idea of what it means now :-)21:05
jelmerfoss development is really good for my foreign language skills21:05
fullermdLuckily, I have a pi-network tuner right here at my elbow to resolve such mismatches   :p21:05
dysingerSo about that svn password - is there something I can stash in .bazaar/subversion.conf or something?21:05
jelmerhey lifeless21:06
jelmerdysinger: If you force svn to authenticate once, it will cache the password21:06
jelmersee the bzr-svn FAQ for details21:07
dysingerIt's asking me for a password everytime21:07
dysingerFAQ! it doesn't work jelmer  svn info https://dysinger@xyz.com/svn works without password but then I immediately get asked for my password when doing bzr update <branch>21:23
dysingersvn password is cached21:23
dysingerbzr still asks everytime21:23
jelmerdysinger: and if you don't specify a username to svn?21:23
dysingersvn info works fine either way with no password21:24
rjekDoes bzr still produce an error if you try to do something with an http:// URL that requires auth but you don't specify a username?21:25
dysingermaybe it's because I checked out the branch with bzr using the username:password@ notation21:25
lifelessdysinger: try bzr bind bettersvnurl21:27
jelmerdysinger: right, but if you specify a username to svn (using the username@ notation) it may not do any caching21:27
dysingerok I'll try it again21:27
lifelessdysinger: that will update the url bzr has remembered21:28
jmlbzr.dev seems to take an awfully long time to pull21:28
rjekjml: Lots of history.21:29
rjekTry a checkout with --lightweight instead if you're not interested in editing the source so much as simply get the latest source.21:29
dysingerthat only works if you are always connected if I am correct21:29
rjekdysinger: Sure, but if you're not interested in using it for development work and only as a way to check out the latest source, you'd need to be connected anyway.21:30
jmlrjek: I mean, pulling from my month-old copy21:30
dysingeroh sorry I was thinking of my repo - not bzr.dev21:30
datojml: is your copy in knits or packs?21:31
dysingerlifeless lol oops I already deleted my repo to start over.  dogh!21:31
lifelessdysinger: heh, why delete the repo ?21:32
jmldato: format is 'dirstate', I guess that means knits21:33
dysingerThanks to OS X I can time-machine back an hour ago and grab it.21:33
lifelessdysinger: at most delete the branch; repositories have no configuration, only raw data, so for things like cached password etc the repository is never at fault21:33
lifelessjml: 'bzr upgrade'21:33
jmllifeless: doing so now :)21:33
datobzr upgrade --pack-0.92 to be really sure21:33
dato(in the rare case his copy didn't have packs-as-default)21:34
jmlwhy do people say knits when bzr says dirstate?21:34
dysingertime machine is so awesome21:34
dysingerrestore -> click21:34
* dato thinks that part of bzr is messy, messy.21:34
datojml: if you know the difference between brach, repository, and working tree, because dirstate is a working tree format and knits a repository format21:35
lifelesshpss call w/body: 'Repository.stream_revisions_chunked', 'home/robertc/bzr.dev/' ('pqm@pqm.ubuntu.com-2'...)21:35
lifeless              172 bytes21:35
jmldato: interesting. running bzr info in the top dir of a shared repository said the format was dirstate21:36
lifelessdown from > 1 MB21:36
jmldato: I'm surprised that has anything to do with working trees21:37
lifelessjml: see bug kthxbye21:37
dysingerGrrr - when I do svn info http://url.com/svn it works fine.  We I try to bind my checkout to it it fails :  Duece:trunk tim$ b bind https://url.com/svn/trunk21:41
dysingerbzr: ERROR: Invalid http response for https://url.com/svn/trunk/.bzr/branch-format: Unable to handle http code 401: Authorization Required21:41
lifelessdysinger: try svn+https21:43
lifelessor is it https+svn; svn first I think21:43
lifelessdoes it work ?21:46
lifelessjelmer: ^ ?21:46
dysingerI went into /tmp & created a new fresh repo & tried to checkout21:46
dysingerfirst I did an svn info https://url....21:47
dysingerthen bzr checkout https://url <- fails21:47
dysingerbzr checkout svn+https://url <- fails the same21:47
dysingerthat's why I added the username:password in the url last night.21:47
dysingerI get bzr: ERROR: Permission denied: ".": PROPFIND request failed on '..... everytime21:48
lifelessI don't know enough about bzr-svn to answer this sorry21:50
jelmerSorry, I don't know eithr21:50
jelmerSubversion 1.5 and bzr-svn 0.4.6 should allow bzr to do the caching21:51
dysingerwhacked ok I am going to try one of my other accounts to see what's up21:51
dysingerok I am using bzr-svn stable but subversion 1.4.6 with patches21:51
dysingermaybe I should go trunk21:51
jelmerbut the "svn info" trick has always worked for me so far21:51
dysinger^ trunk on subversion 1.521:52
dysingerIs trunk 1.5 subversion stable enough to use for everyday dependable development work?22:11
lifelessjelmer: %22:11
jelmerdysinger: imho, yes22:12
dysingerThey don't have a branch for 1.5 yet so I imagine you just compile trunk22:13
dysingerand trunk needs no patches22:13
dysingergeez trunk is way easier to compile22:17
dysingerI bet the problem is this22:25
dysingerI am using os x's svn client to login22:26
dysingerbut bzr is using an updated svn library22:26
dysingerthat's off to the side.22:26
dysingermaybe that's it22:26
lifelessabentley: ping22:46
datojelmer: uploaded22:46
jamigc: morning22:59
jamspiv: any recent changes to Launchpad that would make bzr+ssh start failing?23:00
lifelessjam ping23:01
spivjam: not that I know of23:01
elmoplstobe bzr add not being relative to cwd23:01
lifelessjam: I have an incremental patch I'd love instant-review on23:01
jamlifeless: just a sec, phone call right now23:02
jamwill do after23:02
lifelessjam: will mail it then23:02
lifelessjam: so there are two unreviewed patches in this stack - the incremental one I just sent; and the smart server one that I rejected last night, but is actually good.23:04
spivlifeless: I reviewed that a moment ago23:05
lifelessits a change from  >1.2MB -> 172 bytes  :)23:06
jelmerdato: why the "sigh" about python-all-dev?23:12
jelmerdato: and thanks once again for uploading :-)23:15
=== cfbolz is now known as zzzzz
jamlifeless: bb:approve23:18
* lifeless merges all 423:20
lifelessjam: its release time; could be a rollout or something has just been done23:22
* jam => family time23:25
keithy_Is there an install for 10.423:31
keithy_Is there an install for Mac OS X 10.423:31
dysingeris easy_install on Tiger ?23:33
dysingercan you open a terminal and type `which easy_install` ?23:33
keithy_is that what the 10.5 dmg installer uses?23:34
dysingerI think so yes23:34
dysingerI am on leopard so I just type `sudo easy_install -U paramiko pycrypto bzr`23:34
keithy_seams silly to only release for os os that is barely months old23:35
dysingeroh I am sure there is a way23:36
dysingerI just don't know it.23:36
dysingerIt's just python23:36
dysingerDo you have macports installed ?23:36
keithy_thats enough to make me suspicious23:36
keithy_I cant stand python23:37
keithy_yeah I am updateing macports now23:37
dysingerwow be careful23:37
keithy_why is that not going to work either?23:37
dysingerThe heresy to say python sucks in here23:37
keithy_ih that23:37
keithy_well written by a guy who doesnt understand object dispatch23:38
keithy_sh, down boy23:38
dysingerPython's a perfectly fine language - I prefer ruby myself or java23:38
keithy_first language I ever write a hate sheet on23:39
keithy_but I suspect it might have been the first book I bought on it was rubbish and that coloured my view23:39
keithy_ruby's ok23:40
dysingerI just like Ruby better nowdays - java paid the bills for 10 years23:40
keithy_wow macports updated!23:40
keithy_this might be ok afterall23:41
dysingerI believe git and bzr etc are in macports23:41
keithy_ive tried mercurial, now its bzr's turn.... does it have patch queues?23:42
keithy_does it do binary diffs?23:43
* dysinger just came from git & now trying bzr23:44
fullermdRuby...  furrfu.  Crazy people, this internet thing has...23:44
* awilkins is using SVK fairly actively, tried git (windows) and is liking the look of bzr so far23:44
dysingerhey easy - I didn't say python sucks.  I just said I like Ruby. :)23:45
keithy_well Smalltalk pays my bills23:45
awilkinskeithy_: bzr will let you pass off to the diff tool of your choice23:45
dysingerwow - they still make smalltalk ?23:45
keithy_not that sort of diff23:45
keithy_when it stores in the revisions23:45
fullermdOh, well, I said python sucks  :p23:45
keithy_does it store whole files or does it store diffs?23:45
fullermdBut hey, as long as the tool works, and *I* don't have to write the language, it can be in whatever it likes.23:46
dysingerfullermd likes ???23:46
fullermdWell, except Haskell.  Gotta draw the line somewhere.23:46
lifelesskeithy_: its stores both full files and diffs23:47
fullermdI dunno.  I don't actually have a language I'm agog about these days.23:47
lifelesskeithy_: but chooses between them to balance time and space at each commit23:47
keithy_so if I have a 50Mb file in 4 versions23:47
dysingerI am not a fan of any language I can't read - haskell, erlang, scala etc all have totally bizarre syntax.23:47
fullermdI like C, but it's so much manual bookkeeping.  I spend my days writing PHP and it's not bad, except for the big gaping suckages.  I like perl, but it irritates me in a lot of ways...23:48
lifelesskeithy_: in 1.0 or 1.1 you'll end up with 50MB gzipped + space proportional to the difference in the files, split on \n and represented as line deltas23:48
fullermdBut hey, perl 6 will cure everything.  And it's right around the corner.  No, really, this time for sure.23:48
keithy_but binary fiels dont have lines23:49
lifelesskeithy_: they have \n in ~1/256 characters23:49
lifelesskeithy_: which is enough for the storage layer.23:49
keithy_hmm not sure if it would work on a smalltlak image, can I change the split character23:50
lifelesskeithy_: but its not as efficient as something that looks for common sequences of bytes rather than fooo\n's. We know this is an issue and are looking at a new compressor in a couple of months time23:50
lifelesskeithy_: no, you can't, but it will work - it round trips losslessly; the worst case is you end up with 200MB of storage.23:50
lifelesskeithy_: (and which we will be addressing by 1.4 anyhow :))23:50
lifelessfolk version iso's :)23:51
lifelesskeithy_: you could also use the fuse interface someone was working on to the squeak code and version that in bzr; I suspect we'd need a little work to work on the fuse tree (we need os locks which you wouldn't really have, for a couple of files), but the fuse tree could back that part to local disk; :)23:54
keithy_wow you know about that fuse interface!23:54
keithy_interesting idea23:55
lifelessit wouldn't get object state; but personally I like file-in imageless based smalltalks :)23:56
keithy_I used to use st/x myself23:57
keithy_and that did cvs versioning of classes23:57

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